Question for Aussies re "psych" enforcement [Archive]

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Voltaire's Child

14th June 2009, 07:15 PM

DCAnon

14th June 2009, 07:33 PM

That's untrue.

You can site this case where a young Scientologist in Sydney was not forced to take medication by psychiatrists. She ended up murdering her father and her sister during a psychotic episode. Her name was Linda Waliki.

http://www.xenu-directory.net/topics/20070709-australia-tragedy.html

“Ms Walicki is a twenty six year old woman who appears to have developed her first acute psychotic episode in 2006. She had auditory perceptual disturbances, religious delusional beliefs and a severe behavioural disturbance characterised by ‘manic’ type symptoms. She was admitted to Banks House from 24 October until 15 October (sic -November) 2006. Diagnosed with schizophrenia she was treated with antipsychotic medication.
An attempt was made to place her on a community treatment order but that was apparently resisted by a private psychiatrist. Her treatment in the community continued with the assistance of a general practitioner and the private psychiatrist. Her father/family may have resisted her being treated with medication because of her father’s beliefs in Scientology and the treating psychiatrist appears to have been of the view that her psychotic symptoms were the result of medication she had been prescribed.

Unfortunately, she appears to have been ineffectually treated or under treated and as a result her psychotic illness persisted. In the context of her psychosis she attacked family members, killing her father a younger sister. ...” – Dr Bruce Westmore.

The woman was diagnosed with a mental illness last year, and the court had previously heard she was denied treatment at Bankstown Hospital because of her parents' Scientology beliefs. She instead sought private treatment and was prescribed medication, which she stopped taking in January.

However, her parents allowed her to restart the medicine three weeks before the stabbings as her symptoms worsened, a prior court hearing was told

While the CoS says her illness was caused by her "medication," her "private psychiatrist" is Dr. Yolande Lucire and a member of the CCHR. this woman was allowed to stop her medication as directed by Scientology's belief without forced hospitalization or medication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPZnNb797U8

The community order is a forced temporary hospitalization that is used in only specific circumstances when a person is a danger to themselves or to the public and has no other less restrictive ways to receive treatement available.

http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/reprint/14/8/462.pdf

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn

14th June 2009, 07:40 PM

If a person is under court order to take medicine they do that in the United States too.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/scotus_03-03-03.html

This is my favorite bat shit crazy Scientologist belief regarding "psych" medicine

The government forcing Babies to have Prozac squirted in there eyes at birth to prevent depression later on.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0509/Kirstie_Alley_battles_Menendez_over_moms_bill_.htm l
http://www.thefablife.com/2009-05-26/kirstie-alley-twitters-latest-ranting-celebrity/

Carmel

14th June 2009, 07:50 PM

I have been talking to, in email exchanges, a church member. Very party line. If not OSA, (s)he's probably working for the PR dept because they post on a question and answer forum and it's all pretty party line.

So we ended up emailing. This person made an allegation today that I'm sure is standard CCHR pr but I would like to ask Aussies about it--

Comment made was: "in Australia, if (people) do not take their medicine the psychs issue a "Community Order" and take the police with them fully authorised to hold them down to administer the drugs."

Say what?
Yeah, true, but it applies to those people have been 'officially' classified as having mental dysfunction. See link

http://www.courts.act.gov.au/magistrates/tribunals/mht/Orders.htm

In saying that though, it doesn't take a real lot to get someone "committed" here. A spouse or family member or friend or business assoc could take steps to get just about anyone "committed" here, by following a certain procedure - Thankfully it doesn't happen often, but it does happen and it can, because the 'symptoms' that supposedly 'indicate' that one needs psychiatric help are everyday things which everyday people have.

In NSW just about every other kid ya meet has ADHD. It's now also kinda like just about every other adult ya meet has some kind of psychiatric mental disorder. I'm exaggerating a little here, but it's certainly on the increase in the district and State in which I live, and the amount of people from all 'classes' who are now on medication for some disorder has reached pretty wild proportions.

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

14th June 2009, 09:11 PM

In saying that though, it doesn't take a real lot to get someone "committed" here. A spouse or family member or friend or business assoc could take steps to get just about anyone "committed" here, by following a certain procedure
That's scary. You see this in old films where they try to get the heiress committed so they can steal the property.

Getting "sectioned" is probably about the scariest thing that could happen to someone. No rights at all.

"So Carmel, what were you doing with that e-meter?"

"er, I was releasing the spirits of dead space aliens from my body." :duh:

"Nutter. Lock 'er up and throw away the key." :yes:

"Nooooo ..... " :omg: :omg: :omg:

Voltaire's Child

15th June 2009, 02:31 AM

supafreak

15th June 2009, 03:13 AM

"in Australia, if (people) do not take their medicine the psychs issue a "Community Order" and take the police with them fully authorised to hold them down to administer the drugs."

Say what?

From a psychologist friend of mine: if you're prescribed antidepressants, you don't have to take them. If you have an acute case of mental illness (where you're a risk to yourself or others), the local court can impose an order sanctioning involuntary treatment.

I imagine other countries have similar laws.

Free to shine

15th June 2009, 03:52 AM

Here is a link to a pdf on the Victorian Crisis Assessment Team (CAT) which is probably similar all over Australia, for those who want detailed info.

http://www.health.vic.gov.au/mentalhealth/cat/review07.pdf

SomeGuy

15th June 2009, 03:56 AM

Carmel

15th June 2009, 04:22 AM

Interesting. Depressing, too, but I did know that in the US and in other nations that people can be committed. But thing is, this guy who emailed me has bought into this whole huge CCHR CofS line of bullshit that's designed to scare people. For me, it's like- I know there are psychiatric abuses and I know sometimes "the system" takes over and screws people over but I don't think it's at the level/extent CofS claims. Furthermore, I do not think CofS is the group who can "handle" the problem. For one thing, I don't for one minute think that CofS wants to. I think they tell members they do, but I don't believe that Int Management cares about anything but the money and power. But I also think that even if they did want to-- I don't think they are equipped in any way to do so. CofS can't even deal fairly with church staff, public or anyone else- how are they going to be saviors of anybody? Answer: they cannot.
Yeah , Fluffy, I'm of similar mind.

The CofS broadly attacks psychiatry and is anti psych medication, but it doesn't give a toss about the individuals who may need psychiatric care, nor offer alternative help to those individuals (that's not saying though, that there aren't some staff/scn'ists who do).

On the other hand, there is much 'evidence' to suggest that anti-depressants are over prescribed, and used as an alternative to searching for and finding physical medical conditions which can and do cause mental problems.

Extremes aren't good in any situation, IMO. The extreme stance the CofS takes on "psychiatric care" is a dangerous one, but so too is a 'careless' and 'reckless' over prescribing of anti-depressants - There have been deaths as a result of both.

Sad!

cantsay

15th June 2009, 04:50 AM

As far as I was aware when a family member was committed - it can only be done if they are a danger to themselves or others. Same with forcing medication. Its usually just done in cases of protecting the safety of the persons family, children etc - and I have to say I agree with it. You cant let a destructive psychotic person run around endangering others, and currently there arent any other options. Better than being "type 3 handled" by the church. THATS inhumane.

As for anti-depressants being over prescribed, its a shame, but almost everything else is over-prescribed as well, its not a one-off.

Carmel

15th June 2009, 05:06 AM

As far as I was aware when a family member was committed - it can only be done if they are a danger to themselves or others.
<snip>

Yeah, but it's the adjudication of whether or not that person is a danger to themselves, that's the problem.

In NSW, I think the adjudication process needs to be more stringent, because as it stands today it is too easily manipulated by some who have other agendas.

Panda Termint

15th June 2009, 05:21 AM

<....snip>
Comment made was: "in Australia, if (people) do not take their medicine the psychs issue a "Community Order" and take the police with them fully authorised to hold them down to administer the drugs."

Say what?
Translation based on HCOB, "The Criminal Mind" :

"In the CofS, if (people) do not give up all their real/imagined overts against the CofS (along with all their money) the MAA will issue an Ethics Order and take a bunch of assholes with him, fully authorised by the CofS, lock the person in a room and administer an enforced gang-bang Sec-Check."

Free to shine

15th June 2009, 05:24 AM

Translation based on HCOB, "The Criminal Mind" :

"In the CofS, if (people) do not give up all their real/imagined overts against the CofS (along with all their money) the MAA will issue an Ethics Order and take a bunch of assholes with him, fully authorised by the CofS, lock the person in a room and administer an enforced gang-bang Sec-Check."

Yes! What is done in the name of KSW often defies belief. Talk about pot-kettle-black.

HelluvaHoax!

15th June 2009, 07:47 AM

CoS wishes itself to be (perceived as) the beacon of shining light in the reformation of mental illness. However, from an aerial view, there are inherently profound and irreconcilable conflicts to be found virtually everywhere within their literature and activities, such as:

Press Releases
Policy
Technical Materials (bulletins, tapes..)
OSA capers
Marketing & Positioning Tactics
Public Relations Stunts
Actions (what they actually do on a routine basis)

Examples:

Position Scn as the moral authority on abuse of mentally ill
...then, lock up and abuse the mentally ill (e.g.Lisa McPherson) until they are silenced or dead.

Boast that Scn has the one and only proven technical solution to psychosis & neurosis
....then, immediately and adamantly refuse to accept any person who is mentally ill, labeling them as an "illegal pc".

Establish international exhibits and permanent museum(s) against politically and financially inspired Psych abuse and their mental institutions.
....then to orchestrate a criminal campaign to get people they don't agree with (e.g. Paulette Cooper) to drive them insane and committed to a mental institution.

Decry Human Rights abuses, brainwashing and other instruments of coercion, enslavement and torture.
....then quietly establish its own worldwide network of "gulags" to abuse, brainwash and enslave those who fall into disfavor, disagree or attempt to depart.

Viciously attack the treatment of the mentally ill by psychiatrists and psychologists as fraud, quackery and criminal.
.....then offer not one single remedy to address mental illness except to segregate them from society, remove their civil rights and (for those who refuse to praise hubbard and scn, to "dispose of them quietly without sorrow").

The list of cynical, hypocritical ironies within the CoS is 60 years long and growing. The archive of inconsistencies is sufficiently vast that the CoS is assured to have a nearly endless supply of footbullets as their ridiculous self-righteous proclamations meet up with the reality of their true activities.

scooter

15th June 2009, 09:26 AM

cantsay

15th June 2009, 09:29 AM

I was amazed at the whole "PR Handling" yet somehow OSA got away with it with the faithful by a "special briefing" - karma will not be kind to these people, I fear.

Lets hope karma shoves a large pineapple where it is not welcome, preferably sometime soon. :omg:

Carmel

15th June 2009, 10:21 AM

Probably the best example of the lies was when Michael Waliki and his daughter were murdered by his other daughter and his wife badly wounded and OSA said on national TV that the guy wasn't really a scientologist and that the Co$ would NEVER tell someone not to take their meds.

Michael from memory was a staff member in Div 6 on Syd F for a while - OSA later had to retract what they said about his non-involvement.

I was amazed at the whole "PR Handling" yet somehow OSA got away with it with the faithful by a "special briefing" - karma will not be kind to these people, I fear.

I saw the current affair program where Virginia was interviewed. I was pretty riled up after that 'cause I knew Virginia's and OSA's stance on psych drugs, and I knew she was lying. I rang Cyrus in an effort to get the 'real' scoop. Cyrus told me that Michael had only done div 6 services (for new public - very basic), that he did them years ago, and that the family were "practising Seventh Day Adventists". I bought it :duh: , and didn't think about that incident much, after that.

Now I find out that maybe he was a staff member? Oh shit!

Reportedly (from the court transcripts) she was back on the meds for three weeks prior to stabbing her family members, and any 'fault' of the CofS was no longer in question. I know that if ya go on those meds that ya better be diligent about taking them, and about following a program to get off them, or they can and do cause havoc, AND, we don't know what the actual scene was with this girl at the time she flipped out, HOWEVER, we do know that the CofS did a 'cover up', they lied, and avoided any and all responsibility in the matter, all the while granting their 'followers' little or no power of choice when it comes to the use of anti-depressants.

Voltaire's Child

15th June 2009, 05:06 PM

I do have another email from this person in my email in box. I'm not sure I have the energy to read it yet...

Voltaire's Child

16th June 2009, 01:11 AM

Ok...here's the last email chain. I've deleted the person's name and email address. Today's response from the person is short and top posted. The exchange below that is what we each wrote yesterday w/ my commentary in red, his is plain.

...does concede a couple things but this person's still pretty party line.

OK Claire. I get what you're saying. For my part, I intend to help and support the Church as much as I can. Let's leave it at that,
(name deleted)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Claire Swazey <cswazey@comcast.net>
To: (deleted)
Sent: Monday, 15 June, 2009 4:04:54 AM
Subject: Again: I am *NOT* in favor of ECT

----- Original Message -----
From: (deleted)
To: Claire Swazey
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Your comments

Claire,
I only asked if you had auditing or not to see if you knew what it was and whether you had any reality on how much of a problem the bank is. What you think of Church policies or LRH is irrelevant. Facts remain facts regardless what people think about them.

Actually,you made a couple comments and queries. Not just one.

I didn't say anything about LRH to you. As far as what I think about policy (or LRH had I mentioned him which Ididn't) it is relevant because you broached the subject of my attitude in your second email. My stance and opinions are as relevant to that as yours are to anything you might choose to say.

If and when a person does understand what the bank is and how much trouble it is causing, one can not condone harming in the name of help. There is no way imaginable that electric shocking or drugging a person is theraputic. Period.

Why do you keep bringing up ECT? I've told you that I'm against it. I have never ever recommended or advocated for it anywhere.

As far as meds go, I did not claim those were therapeutic.

There are some other facts that are facts regardless of what you think of Church policies. Civilizations have been going up and down every few hundred years on this planet for a long time.

I know that.

Google Forbidden Archaeology and read the book. You will hear stories about human artifiacts being dug out of Californian gold mines underneath lava stratas 33million years old. Whether it's real to you or not, sooner or later this culture is going to bite the dust and the unfortunate thing is that as spiritual beings, we'll be sitting there looking at the ruins and saying "Oh no, do we have to do this all over again???" No wage controls, reasonable hours or benefits then Claire. No supermarkets either.

Not sure why you're telling me this.

If you think that is unreal then you need to start Googling up on the New World Order.

Again, not sure where you're going with this.

How Cecil Rhodes established his little cabal and how it has developed throughout the last 90 years. The bid for total ownership is nearly over and these guys are just trying to figure out how to move in and take over without having it all break down on them But the laugh is on them, because it always does break down as people instinctively rebel against slavery.

Yes, I speak with many ex CofS staff who did just that.

Just like you rebelled because you thought the Church was violating your own self-determinism.

I didn't think they did- I know they did.

What you don't know about this situation would fill volumes. You clearly don't know why Psychiatry is something that the Church needs to handle.

But they're not handling it.

It's got nothing to do with shock or drugs. There are plenty of people doing destructive things these days. It's got everything to do with what LRH found when he hired someone to investigate the Mental Health Federations all over the world in the 1960's. Guess who he found on all the boards and as founding members? He found bankers and their immediate representatives! They were linked back to the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations and other "altruistic" organizations. Their immediate aims were in the public domain. CCHR even have a video of the leader of the World Federation of Mental Health in their exhibit where he talks about their aims and how they intended to infiltrate every vital area of our society. One of them (Quigley) actually wrote a book about it, saying it was too late to do anything about it.

Of course they want to infiltrate every area of society. They think they have a universally applicable product that will help every area of society. CofS feels the same way and also wants to infiltrate every area of society.

You should go along to a website like www.freedom-force.org. Read the guy's book on how the elite banking guys have screwed the money supply over for their own benefit (Creature from Jekyll Island). They have been crashing the money supply every ten years to enrich themselves since 1913 when they put this system in place.

I have no doubt that there are many things going on behind the scenes. It was ever thus. It was like that in the Restoration period of England, in medieval times, in ancient Rome. Thetans like to play politics. They devise elaborate plans that they either think will benefit themselves or benefit society or both. Sometimes it's only for their own benefit and those of other power brokers, sometimes it's not. CofS Int Management does the same stuff. Just talk to anyone who's been RPF'd in the "Hall" (which is the RPF for the sr Int Management staff) or to Marc Headley.

There are millions of players working behind the scenes- that's what thetans do. Not all factions are doing the same things or intend the same things. I find that a conspiracy-centric point of view is problematic. It's just people playing on other people's fears and sometimes getting a nibble on the fishing line, so to speak. I've seen many websites and books that offered proof of this and that and then other ones that offered proof negating the former.

While I do believe that David Miscavige and al have some regard for and belief in Scn tech, I also think that this conspiracy stuff they are telling people is just meant to frighten them and keep them in line. On staff or continuing to donate.

So all I can do is look at the church's products. What are they really doing. And so it has been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

In the last 10 months the Fed has more than doubled the US dollar supply. That means as those dollars disseminate into the economy, the dollar will halve in value. It's difficult to see how the US economy can survive the next 2 years without falling into martial law. And that is exactly what they have planned.
The freedom-force type guys have guns stockpiled and will give them exactly the ammunition they need to start throwing people into the 800 newly built FEMA detention centres round the country. The Posse-comitatus act has been trashed in the last year or so to enable the military to operate against civilians and there is a whole brigade down south training in urban areas for what is to come.

I believe that's a very old tactic-telling people they'll be taken away and put in detention centers. It's restimulative and upsetting so it always drags someone in.
Some people were telling people they would be taken away after Y2K and there were websites with photoshopped images of WWII German concentration camps that they claimed were new ones in the US, getting ready for Y2K where "good Americans" would be "taken away". I have a gay friend who believed that George W Bush wanted to put gays in concentration camps. This is a somewhat common fear.

As far as the US economy surviving the next couple years without martial law-we survived the depression and also the 1970's and early 80's recession without martial law. Unemployment was 11% at one point in the latter.

If there is one Church policy that drives me nuts it is the one where they don't tell people about what is happening and what is about to happen. They say they don't like to enturbulate people and maybe it is the smarter way to go.

And that can be used many ways.

But there is enough information, particularly in the Freedom articles Ron wrote in the 1960's to see what is going to happen. Think what you want, but Scientology management believe that mankind is on the verge of sinking into a police state. Among other troublemakers, Scientologists will be rounded up and placed in detention centres. That's what they are looking at and I also firmly believe it.
If the economy withstands the current attack from the Fed, it will not be able to withstand the rollovers on the Arab treasuries in 2012 (see Confessions of an Economic Hit Man for the dope on that where the guy who organized it confesses). The Church is hoping that our current religious freedom will last till then.

CofS management are the very last people I would ever suspect would do anything to help anyone in the event of any economic crisis. These are the people who've pushed orgs into buying Ideal orgs that in many cases, years later, the org still isn't allowed to move into. The property is deeded to Int, as well. Many CofS members have been regged into coughing up retirement funds, their homes and so on.

Then you've got FPRD sec checks on OTVII which is a violation of CS Series. But it's a money maker so they kept doing it. After a number of complaints, they revised the sec checks but they're still there.

these are the people who go through and confiscate cell phones, computers and modems in the possession of Sea Org staff. This had happened many times, and it's generally done when the person is away at post with no word to the person except after the fact.

These are the people who've TECH DEGRADED the certs of others- telling interned classed auditors that if their training wasn't GAT (Golden age of tech) that it would have to be redone and telling other staff and public that the person's certs were no good. I've witnessed this! (Hubbard never devised GAT, either)

And now it's basic books. Hubbard, with his attention to detail and his determination to polish up and revise every auditing rundown or action or HCOB that he thought needed it- supposedly missed many outnesses in his books and so now the current administration has revised them.

CofS management are the people who sent an SO mission to Portland after the shooter came, and then screamed at everyone there and told them how they must have done something to pull it in, then recruited many staff to the SO, leaving Portland all the more understaffed.

These are the guys who have dumped old SO members on the street or in an old age home to be silenced forever. These are the guys who've RPFed people,even putting some in the RPF's RPF. Hubbard wrote a lot on the subjects of force and duress and on communication and the church does everything he wrote about that he says wasn't good.

These are the people who've threatened parents into letting or even making their kids sign Sea Org contracts. These are the people who've given orders to have SO staff enforce and coerce abortions.

I don't believe there is a major world conspiracy that is going to kill us all but if I did- and I certainly can imagine that it could be possible since thetans do what they do sometimes- I wouldn't believe CofS management could do jack shit about it or even figure out what it was even if it was right there in front of them. Anything Miscavige sees is seen only in terms of whether it's a threat to him or not.

So frankly Claire, while Scientologists do value benefits and wage controls and all those other good things, if we are right, they are trivia at the moment because they are all about to cease. YOu should google the interviews with Aaron Russo who relates what Nick Rockefeller told him about their intentions for mankind. Chilling.

That's a nice rationalization for oppression of staff and breaking promises to them, promises made in policy and promises made by recruiters, as well.

On psychiatry, they are what is called a fifth-column. They were imported from US enemies by these financial elite who aspire to rule the world. Their job is to break down our social structures and I'll even attach the manual which came into our hands a long time ago for your enjoyment. Of course they are saying that Ron Hubbard wrote it and that it is a blueprint for how Scientology is run. If you believe that then I'm wasting my time even telling you what I believe.

I'm sure there are people who'd like to break down the social structures in this country. However, I not only don't believe CofS is equipped to deal with that, I don't think it even wants to.

There are all sorts of people working behind the scenes- some of whom are helpful, some not. For every person trying to bring down the society, there are several more who are trying to shore it up. If everything were torn down and rebooted, the same stuff would happen again.

Claire, when you understand what a fifth-column is, if you find out a bit about the level of attack these guys have levelled at the Church since Day 1 back in May 1950, you would not be so sympathetic to them.

I'm not sure what guys you think I'm being sympathetic to. My main interest is in the fact that CofS breaks its promises, preys on staff and public then hides behind the mantle of alleged public decency. I try to keep a pan determined outlook, yes, but my sympathies and empathies are sparingly doled out.

PC's are illegal not because of the treatment they receive but because of their connections. ...in Australia, if pc's do not take their medicine the psychs issue a "Community Order" and take the police with them fully authorised to hold them down to administer the drugs.

I know exactly what CofS does re its illegal pcs. I was in the organization a long time.

And if someone in Australia is prescribed medicine,how does that make him a pc?

I don't take people's words for things whenever possible so I'll ask some Aussie friends of mine about this.

All the things you read in the attached manual have been done to us. Infiltration etc. The LSD thing is great. LRH writes up just one incident where they sent the girl home because she looked tired and then the parents and psych's turn up and accuse the Church of driving their kid insane. The girl actually did have the psychotic break their lsd and hypnosis required.

And of course psychiatry hasn't changed at all in the many decades since that was written?

But she had it at home.

And how about the psychotic breaks people have had because of crappy C/Sing on OTVII where they've been grinding and grinding away, overrun, given sec checks they didn't need or psychotic breaks people have had because they lost their families in CofS and reached a breaking point?

I've seen people prevented from leaving staff and who were not allowed to see their families. I've seen people encouraged to give all their money to IAS then when they needed help in CofS re being allowed to do an upper level service,not getting any help. I've seen people talked into donating tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for services they weren't allowed to do. All that can drive people nuts.

Organizations that say they want to help those who are preyed upon should not be doing any preying upon people.

Psychiatry and psychology are not perfect but CofS refuses to take on a number of people for services for various reasons. All very well and good- it doesn't have to- but without psychology and psychiatry the person would be left with no avenue, if they needed mental health treatment. Also, psychiatry and psychology have many schools of thought and treatments and changes all the time. It's not one big amorphous unchanging lump.

There have been some deaths of Scientologists, too, who had psychotic breaks. Jeremy Perkins, sadly, had received some auditing, and then later vitamin therapy, etc, and didn't benefit. Maybe he wouldn't have benefitted from psychiatry, either. That's quite likely. But it's not as if the Church of Scientology doesn't have any deaths or tragedies for which its responsible.

Anyway Claire. When you criticize the Church you are in great company. They pay people out there to attack the Church.

Most people who criticize CofS were in CofS and were betrayed.

I would remind you of the Scn datum that any out-arc is always preceded by arc. In other words, you can't get upset with someone unless you had affinity before. The affinity is more true than the out-affinity. This is said a million ways in Scn. The persistence of the second postulate is delusory and untrue. YOu can only keep it alive with a lot of work. There is always relief when the necessity to keep it alive is gone.

When a person or group breaks its promises and applies duress- both of which I've experienced- then I pull my support as would any sane thinking being if in a similar circumstance.

If I'd done so regarding a quilting club or something, you wouldn't mind a bit, probably. But somehow it's unthinkable when it's CofS. That's because CofS still has your support. That's fine, you can support it, you should do what you think is best. I believe we're both US citizens- it's a free country and we have those rights of choice. But don't deny others the freedoms you enjoy.

This is a big dump, but people like you upset me for a lot of reasons.

I have noticed that people who have a certain point of view are often not tolerated by those with those whose point of view is different. I could quote LRH on it, but I don't need to. You and I both know what he wrote. Point is, some people cannot tolerate those whose politics are different or who don't agree with them on ...well, any number of different things. The unfortunate thing is that in CofS, no one's allowed to speak freely. They get in trouble for speaking out if they see something that's "out" that management does NOT want to change. They get fair gamed if they really speak out or if they are involved with "Squirrel groups". However, outside CofS, the intolerance level is generally lower. There are some people in the non Scn world who will jump all over people who have different view points on various issues and try to stop them but it's much much rarer than it is amongst CoS Scientologists. In CofS it's not allowed. Period.

Church staff often do mishandle people who want to leave and it brings us unnecessary grief. You have some affinity for Scn but your potential to help is abused and wasted. On the other hand, you seem to think that you have finally penetrated the mystery and now you know everything.

I know what I know. I've seen what I've seen.

You can generate long lists of things the Church does wrong and vey little about the good we do to give your argument balance.

But it's ok for the church to compile such lists about other groups and even helpful but no way should they be on the receiving end...

But really all that has happened is that you have been abused in some way, restimulated and now you are dramatizing your bank.

All I have to do is see what the church's actions are. Consistently. Former Int management people and others have told their stories. As have those of us who were more in the trenches. I have my observations and those echo the things others have seen and done. These aren't isolated circumstances as I had once thought they were. So what I see is an abusive organization pointing fingers. I cannot undo my own experience and observations, nor would I wish to.

What you really need to do is to look to your future and figure out where you are going to be next lifetime and the few thousand lifetimes after that.

Future is important but abusive people and organizations aren't going to provide any sort of constructive future for me or for anyone else.

C

DCAnon

16th June 2009, 01:29 AM

link her to friendsoflrh.org :yes:

cantsay

16th June 2009, 01:38 AM

Well done, and well written Fluffy. Its a shame she more than likely has no ability to see anything from anothers point of view anymore.

Panda Termint

16th June 2009, 09:13 AM

Nicely handled, Fluffy.
I wouldn't have the patience! :)

scooter

16th June 2009, 10:03 AM

Nice touch, Fluffy - don't know that this Ronbot's gonna get "up to Need of Change" soon tho'.:coolwink:

I do like DCA's suggestion tho' - that could maybe shift something:thumbsup:

degraded being

16th June 2009, 10:08 AM

Very well answered Fluffy.!!!

Voltaire's Child

16th June 2009, 05:15 PM

Thanks. I doubt very much that I've planted any seeds. This person's going to rationalize away every crappy thing that happens. And in this email exchange and in another that I didn't post, this person has several times admitted having seen problems and crap in CofS.

Well, I used to rationalize it, too. Eventually I got smart. CofS isn't a group that's well intentioned but tends to skirt the law. That would be problematic enough, IMO. But they're not well intentioned. They are downright mean! And if they really were working on improving the world, they'd start with their own corner of it- treatment of staff, mission, Class V org and most particularly SO. And if they really were working on improving the world, you would see some results. You'd see press releases. Even if those were failed attempts or naive programs or something-you'd see something.

Oh wait...yellow tents...IAS briefings...they said they're doing something. Ok, I take it all back--NOT!!