Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

[Terril park]

Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I shall start with this comment from an asshole. :-

"Marty Rathbun and everyone else in the Sea Org can play the part of victim all they want, but they will get no sympathy from me by passing the buck to Miscavige."

This is an insult to many posters here who have written of there struggles to make the Church to do right. These posters are self evidently heroes, and yet failed. Yet they are, rightly praised not condemned.

Marty and Mike have struck it seems the most effective blow against the
tyranny of Miscavidge, of OSA and the COS, and some useless keyboard warrior idiots complain and moan!

They also insult those who follow the technology of scientology. Like
Marty Rathbun. He, others, moi, are freezoners.

I suggest they go to some islamic forums and insult islam and leave their address!

There are four heroes, putting themselves in danger to make the world a safer place for scientologists and ex scientologists.

Kudos and salutations. :)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

:violin:

Anyone who continues to promote Hubbard as anything other than a piece of shit, is insulting everyone who suffered as a result of the policies he created

[CornPie]

Anyone who continues to promote Hubbard as anything other than a piece of shit, is insulting everyone who suffered as a result of the policies he created
FreeZone "practitioners" support some of hubbard-Ass's policies, but they won't disclose which. Do some believe in Xenu and fairgame, and some not? Where do you stand on the FZ, can any of them be trusted?

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

FreeZone "practitioners" support some of hubbard-Ass's policies, but they won't disclose which. Do some believe in Xenu and fairgame, and some not? Where do you stand on the FZ, can any of them be trusted?

I couldn't care less what they believe as long as they are not abusing people, but please don't act as if Hubbard was anything but a selfish con man and expect not to get called on it. The reason Miscavige is a total piece of shit is not because he altered or misapplied Hubbard's policies, he is a total asshole because he followed Hubbard's policies to a tee. If Hubbard was around today the only problem he would have with Miscavige is that Miscavige is getting too much credit for building Hubbard's totalitarian cult.

[Veda]

Marty and Mike need a lot of (self-initiated) "deprogramming," unless they want to end up the darlings of the glass-humpty dumpty's in the Xenu-Bridge Freezone.

It's their choice.

They've only been out a short time. Give them time. There's no reason to assume that they'll be permanently frozen in the emotionally/intellectually stunted Scientology Freezone mind-set.

[HolyCow]

Holy Cow! From Islamic Forums to Pieces of Shite. :omg:

You know, I admitted on another thread that after the St Petes headlines today, I was finally able to cry. While I am overjoyed at the courage of others, and happy thinking perhaps the insanity and cruelty will end soon, I was crying not for joy.

Never considered myself a victim. Doesn't mean I and so many I knew and don't know haven't experienced profound losses.

I also gained an understanding today listening to the lengthy Marty interview. As difficult it was for me, for the first time I imagined it must be 100x more for someone who audited.

I made my own decision after reviewing all the information. I concluded that anyone would have "wins" and "gains" just facing up to the fact there was a problem and talking about it and trying to work it all out.

I didn't arrive at this crossroad overnight. And please remember that "tech" has been taken from many places.

My point is, this day is, at least, a hallmark day of celebration. Perhaps this is a very good day to begin to respect each other and even celebrate our differences.

This kind of name calling and denigration is exactly why many of us are here on the ESMB board ... to heal from that kind of ... uhm, toilet turmoil? turd regurgitation?

Peace, dudes.:fighting: :cake:

[CornPie]

...And please remember that "tech" has been taken from many places...
What about the Xenu tech, the OT3 invisible Body Thetans, the DC9's, 75 million years ago, where did that "tech" come from? (scientology wasn't it, still being shysted by the FZ. For money?)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Marty and Mike need a lot of (self-initiated) "deprogramming," unless they want to end up the darlings of the glass-humpty dumpty's in the Xenu-Bridge Freezone.

It's their choice.

They've only been out a short time. Give them time. There's no reason to assume that they'll be frozen in the emotionally/intellectually stunted Scientology Freezone mind-set.

I do appreciate their willingness to come out and set the record straight, but acting as if the cult is going to be some human rights fostering utopia just because Miscavige is hauled off in shackles is retarded. There are more Ronbots just like Miscavige waiting in the wings to continue Hubbard's insane quest of world domination. They will just pick one who isn't as damaged as Miscavige, one without a debilitating Napoleon Complex. The bottom line is ... Hubbard is the problem and always will be the problem

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I shall start with this comment from an asshole. :-

"Marty Rathbun and everyone else in the Sea Org can play the part of victim all they want, but they will get no sympathy from me by passing the buck to Miscavige."

This is an insult to many posters here who have written of there struggles to make the Church to do right. These posters are self evidently heroes, and yet failed. Yet they are, rightly praised not condemned.

Marty and Mike have struck it seems the most effective blow against the
tyranny of Miscavidge, of OSA and the COS, and some useless keyboard warrior idiots complain and moan!

They also insult those who follow the technology of scientology. Like
Marty Rathbun. He, others, moi, are freezoners.

I suggest they go to some islamic forums and insult islam and leave their address!

There are four heroes, putting themselves in danger to make the world a safer place for scientologists and ex scientologists.

Kudos and salutations. :)

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion Rinder and Rathbun are low life weasels.

They kept quiet since they were out for their own self-preservation.
Now they are speaking out for their own self-preservation.

They do not appear to be doing anything from a sense of conscience, only their own self-interest, just like they did when they worked hand in hand with Miscavige.

So long as they had something to gain they stood by Miscavige and helped him ruin people's lives.

They are like those Nazi and SS officers who after the war claimed they never liked Hitler.

I'm glad that what they say now in their own self-interest will help undo the Church, but to trust them and call them heroes when they were the executioners is an insult to those they harmed.

The paper made a good analogy, calling them Erhlichmann and Halderman. That's the kind of slimeballs they are.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Zinjifar]

I'll be interested to see whether Marty and Mike get into squabbles about *whose* revisionist version gets the most play. So Marty is 'first out of the gate'. Mike's turn tomorrow?

Zinj

[Terril park]

I couldn't care less what they believe as long as they are not abusing people, but please don't act as if Hubbard was anything but a selfish con man and expect not to get called on it. [snip]


Contrary facts.

[DCAnon]

I think it takes a really strong person to step forward, admit they were wrong, and look for solutions to fix it. Facing consequences is hard. There's a lot of things I don't know about this situation, but I am very interested in hearing what they have to say.

[Terril park]

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion Rinder and Rathbun are low life weasels.[snip]



This is perhaps the greatest crime of organised scientology. How
many here from there stories could this be said about?

The greatest sin there is, is making another guilty of an overt. A COS
prime directive.

"Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone. "

Those who cannot forgive, and acknowledge the wisdom of the above statement are part of some problem.

This is relevant to scientology but has ramifications to all of life.

We should celebrate our common humanity.

[nexus100]

I agree 100% with the asshole. I have no sympathy for either of them.

By that I mean there is no reason to believe either of them would operate differently if circumstances were the same as before. No reason to think that they have changed perspectives or are willing to offer up honest viewpoints. There is reason to believe their support of the attack on the COS is the safest route for both of them.

I think it is at best disingenuous to play the commendation card, an odiferous relic of Hubbardism, in support of auditors whose methodology has been so, so much the opposite of what spiritual freedom is supposed to create.

As I quoted earlier, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Contrary facts.

Not really, I really couldn't care less what you believe, I might not agree with it, but I really don't care. And as far as Hubbard goes, you are free to believe what you want, but that is not going to change my opinion of the man or stating my opinion.Just as you can consider me an asshole all you like, you are more than free to do so. I'm not interested in changing your beliefs about that either.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

This is perhaps the greatest crime of organised scientology. How
many here from there stories could this be said about?

The greatest sin there is, is making another guilty of an overt. A COS
prime directive.

"Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone. "

Those who cannot forgive, and acknowledge the wisdom of the above statement are part of some problem.

This is relevant to scientology but has ramifications to all of life.

We should celebrate our common humanity.

Okay, I'll celebrate my common humanity with them--I'm a low-life weasel too.

Seriously, I will not become an apologists for them and an apologist for what they did because now it is in their own selfish interests for them to say what we all want to hear.

They kept quiet for too long, and they did too much harm.

I want to see justice, and what they are saying may bring about justice, but I don't believe they are motivated by justice but by the same arrogant, elitist, fascistic views that has been their operating basis for the last quarter century.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Div6]

I think it is a bit of a PR problem to commend some one for doing something they should have done all along. Being honest and straight should not be commended, as it should be EXPECTED.

While I too am giddy at what the prospect of these disclosures could mean vis-a-vis laying Lisa McPhereson to rest (finally), I am of the opinion that all should be held accountable for the consequences of their actions or inactions, as the case may be. This isn't some "danger condition" handling...it is a justice matter. And I for one would like to see some true justice done for once.

If anyone should be commended at this point, I think it is the SPTimes. This is Pulitzer Prize material, and I think it is evenly presented.

my .02


ymmv

[HolyCow]

What about the Xenu tech, the OT3 invisible Body Thetans, the DC9's, 75 million years ago, where did that "tech" come from? (scientology wasn't it, still being shysted by the FZ. For money?)

Nah, nothing that fabulously fancy and fantastically expensive. I'm simply talking about real basic, common sense stuff, really. Take "study tech" for example. I was raised in Catholic schools that used dictionaries, and used creative techniques of applying what you learned (much better than dinky demo kits). Had no idea how bad some public school systems had become in 21st century in U.S. until I applied for some community college courses.

I was appalled, really and truly. Then I learned that a) many students had been going through school drugged, one way or another and b) teaching methods were by rote "memorization".

as far as upper level "tech", taken from Crowley black majic and sci-fi writers like Heinlein, and Azimov, maybe.

The thing of it is, CornPie, it's just no that black and white. People have had genuine improvement in their life, and just because it happened in the midst of a hoax, doesn't mean you or anyone else can say they didn't experience it.

Talking to someone who you trust about a problem, or going to a music concert, or falling in love, or many things can help someone. And if those things happened while you were involved with something that didn't help, well, that might confuse the issue.

Hey, there comes a time when you have to decide who is holding reins of your life, but if it's someone else, you gotta know you can take them back. And then move on.

[Terril park]

I agree 100% with the asshole. I have no sympathy for either of them.

By that I mean there is no reason to believe either of them would operate differently if circumstances were the same as before. No reason to think that they have changed perspectives or are willing to offer up honest viewpoints. There is reason to believe their support of the attack on the COS is the safest route for both of them.

I think it is at best disingenuous to play the commendation card, an odiferous relic of Hubbardism, in support of auditors whose methodology has been so, so much the opposite of what spiritual freedom is supposed to create.

As I quoted earlier, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Yes using the term commendation may not have been the best way to communicate. I've lived with that term for decades, and it is a standard english word, not specialised jargon.

Perhaps I could make a plea to retake the english language.

Perhaps I could have headed the post " Salutations".

However you are really nit picking. I say retake our language. :)

[nexus100]

Yes using the term commendation may not have been the best way to communicate. I've lived with that term for decades, and it is a standard english word, not specialised jargon.

Perhaps I could make a plea to retake the english language.

Perhaps I could have headed the post " Salutations".

However you are really nit picking. I say retake our language. :)

Merciful heavens.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Nah, nothing that fabulously fancy and fantastically expensive. I'm simply talking about real basic, common sense stuff, really. Take "study tech" for example. I was raised in Catholic schools that used dictionaries, and used creative techniques of applying what you learned (much better than dinky demo kits). Had no idea how bad some public school systems had become in 21st century in U.S. until I applied for some community college courses.

I was appalled, really and truly. Then I learned that a) many students had been going through school drugged, one way or another and b) teaching methods were by rote "memorization".

as far as upper level "tech", taken from Crowley black majic and sci-fi writers like Heinlein, and Azimov, maybe.

The thing of it is, CornPie, it's just no that black and white. People have had genuine improvement in their life, and just because it happened in the midst of a hoax, doesn't mean you or anyone else can say they didn't experience it.

Talking to someone who you trust about a problem, or going to a music concert, or falling in love, or many things can help someone. And if those things happened while you were involved with something that didn't help, well, that might confuse the issue.

Hey, there comes a time when you have to decide who is holding reins of your life, but if it's someone else, you gotta know you can take them back. And then move on.

Anyone who falls for a ponzi scheme too can get a profit from it if they get out in time. That doesn't mean ponzi schemes are not a black and white issue.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Anyone who falls for a ponzi scheme too can get a profit from it if they get out in time. That doesn't mean ponzi schemes are not a black and white issue.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Few things in life are black and white

http://cloudworth.com/good-adolf-hitler/

This is why it's a very bad idea to surrender your capacity for objective and critical thought to a cult

[RolandRB]

FreeZone "practitioners" support some of hubbard-Ass's policies, but they won't disclose which. Do some believe in Xenu and fairgame, and some not? Where do you stand on the FZ, can any of them be trusted?

I'd trust them less than a full-blown clam.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Few things in life are black and white

http://cloudworth.com/good-adolf-hitler/

This is why it's a very bad idea to surrender your capacity for objective and critical thought to a cult

True, I don't believe things are black and white. But some things can have a net aggregate effect that is either good or bad. Hitler was a nice painter too.

But to take a thing like Hitler loved his mother and equate that on an equal good or bad basis with the death and destruction he caused is not rational.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

True, I don't believe things are black and white. But some things can have a net aggregate effect that is either good or bad. Hitler was a nice painter too.

But to take a thing like Hitler loved his mother and equate that on an equal good or bad basis with the death and destruction he caused is not rational.

The Anabaptist Jacques

To act as if Hubbard created his totalitarian cult to help people just because he claims he did, is not rational either

[RolandRB]

Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I shall start with this comment from an asshole. :-

"Marty Rathbun and everyone else in the Sea Org can play the part of victim all they want, but they will get no sympathy from me by passing the buck to Miscavige."

This is an insult to many posters here who have written of there struggles to make the Church to do right. These posters are self evidently heroes, and yet failed. Yet they are, rightly praised not condemned.

Marty and Mike have struck it seems the most effective blow against the
tyranny of Miscavidge, of OSA and the COS, and some useless keyboard warrior idiots complain and moan!

They also insult those who follow the technology of scientology. Like
Marty Rathbun. He, others, moi, are freezoners.

I suggest they go to some islamic forums and insult islam and leave their address!

There are four heroes, putting themselves in danger to make the world a safer place for scientologists and ex scientologists.

Kudos and salutations. :)

Mike Rinder, through his deeds, is worse than that asthmatic dwarf. I would like to see Mike Rinder torn apart by big dogs. I would like to keep his preserved severed hand in a draw. There is no honour in that piece of slime and never will be. I want a piece of him. I will remember Mike Rinder best from the high fives he gave the Co$ legal team when he heard that RVY had terminal cancer. I want the world to get even with that guy.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

To act as if Hubbard created his totalitarian cult to help people just because he claims he did, is not rational either

Do you think I think that?

The Anabaptist Jacques

[dexter gelfand]

My point is, this day is, at least, a hallmark day of celebration. Perhaps this is a very good day to begin to respect each other and even celebrate our differences.

This kind of name calling and denigration is exactly why many of us are here on the ESMB board ... to heal from that kind of ... uhm, toilet turmoil? turd regurgitation?

Peace, dudes.:fighting: :cake:[/QUOTE]

Well stated, HC. I would add that childishly brutal attacks on those of us who found so much value in the tech while being repulsed by the behavior of certain CoS execs speaks volumes about the attacker, and at the expense of more thoughtful people who express their own disagreements in a more considerate way.

[AnonOrange]

Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I shall start with this comment from an asshole. :-

"Marty Rathbun and everyone else in the Sea Org can play the part of victim all they want, but they will get no sympathy from me by passing the buck to Miscavige."


I second the comment from the asshole.

I very much appreciate Marty's courrage and the usefulness of his statements to help Mark, Claire and Laura, but I sense that he's rehearsed that in such a way to be part of whatever remains of Scientology.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Let's see what the guy says when he's under oath.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[RolandRB]

Let's see what the guy says when he's under oath.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Do you seriously think that would make a difference? These people have no truck nor dealings with honesty and what is right.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Do you think I think that?

The Anabaptist Jacques

Not at all, I 'm just commenting

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Do you seriously think that would make a difference? These people have no truck nor dealings with honesty and what is right.

That's my point! He is manipulative for his own self-interest. He is not concerned with justice.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Martini]

Didn't see a video of Rinder but saw the one of Rathbun - powerful and significant in bringing down the cult and Miscavige (unlike the drivel found too often on this board.)

Very Well Done Marty. Carry on.

[GoButtonIsBlowButton]

Fair Game, disconnection, the chain locker, keelhauling, sec-checks, intel, vicious attacks of perceived enemies, beans and rice, deplorable conditions for families, ridiculous pay, etc. were all part of the LRH era. The Midget COB has only magnified and intensified these reprehensible activities. And Marty's splitting hairs on confessionals versus sec-checks -- puhleez... the culling of overts, evil intentions, withholds, discreditable acts, thoughts, compulsions, sexual indiscretions, etc. FROM PC FOLDERS, NOT SEC CHECK OR ETHICS RECORDS by the GO and now OSA for use in attacking/suppressing the disaffected -- yes, Marty, it was Saint LRH.

The rest of his interview was wonderful.

[Free to shine]

I agree 100% with the asshole. I have no sympathy for either of them.

By that I mean there is no reason to believe either of them would operate differently if circumstances were the same as before. No reason to think that they have changed perspectives or are willing to offer up honest viewpoints. There is reason to believe their support of the attack on the COS is the safest route for both of them.

I think it is at best disingenuous to play the commendation card, an odiferous relic of Hubbardism, in support of auditors whose methodology has been so, so much the opposite of what spiritual freedom is supposed to create.

As I quoted earlier, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Totally agree.

[auntpat]

These guys are blaming DM for the abuses, etc. Who do you think DM will blame? When he is cornered he will swear that he was following LRH's policy and instructions to the letter. Don't think he won't bring up over boarding and peanut pushing and other examples of LRH's handling. I am glad they are only attacking DM because that gives those that are still in a chance to look at their words. If they were attacking LRH many would shut down and not hear a word they say.
Well done, Marty, keep up the goodd work.:happydance:

[Panda Termint]

To be honest, I don't really care about the motivation behind it all.
I just care that this reporting heralds the end of a Suppressive Totalitarian Regime that has ruined the lives of too many good people.

[programmer_guy]

Fair Game, disconnection, the chain locker, keelhauling, sec-checks, intel, vicious attacks of perceived enemies, beans and rice, deplorable conditions for families, ridiculous pay, etc. were all part of the LRH era. The Midget COB has only magnified and intensified these reprehensible activities. And Marty's splitting hairs on confessionals versus sec-checks -- puhleez... the culling of overts, evil intentions, withholds, discreditable acts, thoughts, compulsions, sexual indiscretions, etc. FROM PC FOLDERS, NOT SEC CHECK OR ETHICS RECORDS by the GO and now OSA for use in attacking/suppressing the disaffected -- yes, Marty, it was Saint LRH.

The rest of his interview was wonderful.

Yep. I agree. Marty seems to think that this was all hugely different before the days of Miscavige (at least as he says in part 12). Hubbard's paranoia started all that crap... not Miscavige. For example, Hubbard was the one to institute the over-boarding and the chain-locker punishments.

[RolandRB]

Commendation, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

I shall start with this comment from an asshole. :-

"Marty Rathbun and everyone else in the Sea Org can play the part of victim all they want, but they will get no sympathy from me by passing the buck to Miscavige."

This is an insult to many posters here who have written of there struggles to make the Church to do right. These posters are self evidently heroes, and yet failed. Yet they are, rightly praised not condemned.

Marty and Mike have struck it seems the most effective blow against the
tyranny of Miscavidge, of OSA and the COS, and some useless keyboard warrior idiots complain and moan!

They also insult those who follow the technology of scientology. Like
Marty Rathbun. He, others, moi, are freezoners.

I suggest they go to some islamic forums and insult islam and leave their address!

There are four heroes, putting themselves in danger to make the world a safer place for scientologists and ex scientologists.

Kudos and salutations. :)

Hi Terril,

why is it that the biggest supporters of Scientology are those that have managed to skip most of the processing such as illegal PCs and "past life Clears"? You know that if you were in the "Church" then you would have got an R-factor years ago. No wonder you support the freezone.

Here is a little on your hero Marty Rathbun:

Thee church says Rathbun is a liar, a bully and an incompetent who screwed up task after task. Church attorney Monique Yingling cites a "phenomenon in Scientology'' when the accuser has committed bad acts he attributes to another; she says that's what Rathbun is doing.

April 19, 1994: Communication. "While I didn't spread any lies about you directly, it did become manifest to me that my actions over the past year have potentially created black PR on you. ... To me, worse than all the shortcomings and overt acts and their effects, is the potential effect they had of tarnishing your image and presence and power. I say 'potential' only because I think it would be presumptuous of me to suggest I could do any real harm to you. ... I did want you to know that I have never regretted anything as deeply as I regret having betrayed you.''

2001: Statement: Rathbun confesses to physical and degrading attacks. "In May 2001 I grabbed Yager by the shirt and lifted him into a wall when he got caught out on outright false reporting to COB as I recall. ... In April or May 2001, Guillaume gave me some 1.1 backflash and I threw him across a table. ... On about 25 occasions I severely ripped into (name blacked out). ... I called her a 'f------ c---' and a "suppressive b----,'' and a "black PR infested criminal. ... I ordered her to Ethics on about 8 occasions to get her overts, withholds, BPR and evil purposes handled in lieu of cramming orders.''

Dec. 8, 2001: Suppressive Person Declaration. Referring to himself as "Marty,'' Rathbun said he had harmed and undermined colleagues. "Marty took advantage of a number of false reports he had put in place over years giving a false picture as to his role in handling external attacks and the IRS in particular.''

"Marty then engaged in a campaign to covertly and systematically take out and undermine any executive or staff who might expose him. He did this through abusing his privilege to act as a security checker. ... He began the out-tech practice of sec checking people with no formal session set up, and brow beating hair-raising confessions out of them.''

Sept. 28, 2003: Public Announcement: Rathbun wrote: "I have developed a slick false PR technique of positioning myself as having been integral in handling threats during and after the fact, when they are actually terminatedly handled by COB. By calculation I have lost the Church 43 million dollars on losses and expenses that could have been avoided....

[Panda Termint]

<...snip>
Here is a little on your hero Marty Rathbun:

Thee church says Rathbun is a liar, a bully and an incompetent who screwed up task after task. Church attorney Monique Yingling cites a "phenomenon in Scientology'' when the accuser has committed bad acts he attributes to another; she says that's what Rathbun is doing.
<....snip blah, blah, blah>
.

It's quite unusual to see you doing OSA's work for them, Roland.

[RolandRB]

It's quite unusual to see you doing OSA's work for them, Roland.

Being high up in the "Church" is like the old occult societies in London where you had to provide proof that you had done a murder before you could be accepted. You have got to be as scum as the highest scum in Scientology before you can hold one of those top posts. That is why scum like Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun will not get sympathy from me. I want one of their hands to keep in my draw.

[Panda Termint]

I understand that BUT I can't quite see the logic in using the CofS/OSA dead-agent material to besmirch the character of those now assisting in the expose. I wouldn't be forwarding Church DA lines, especially at this time.
The enemy of my enemy etc...

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I understand that BUT I can't quite see the logic in using the CofS/OSA dead-agent material to besmirch the character of those now assisting in the expose. I wouldn't be forwarding Church DA lines, especially at this time.
The enemy of my enemy etc...

He's only being honest about what he thinks of these individuals. I think Rathbun and Rinder are the same low-lifes they were when they were still in Scientology. They are motivated by their self-interest now as they were then.

It is the reporters who are uncovering the truth, not Rinder and Rathbun.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Tim Skog]

I won't commend Rathbun and Rinder, nor will I condemn them. They both have a long way to go in making good on the bad that they were part of while working closely with Da Midget.

By the same token I sure as hell don't trust the Church's spin about these two guys now, and I certainly don't trust the Church's so called documentation about the bad character of either Marty or Mike.

[Iknowtoomuch]

I will commend them for speaking up.
They have seen it's wrong and this is an ethics gradient for DM and Scientology.


Well done guys and girl!!:thumbsup:

[Feral]

To be honest, I don't really care about the motivation behind it all.
I just care that this reporting heralds the end of a Suppressive Totalitarian Regime that has ruined the lives of too many good people.

Exactly.

We don't know what these guys will do with the cult, they see Ron's work with rose colored glasses and I want no part of the future of scientology or the bridge to nowhere, but they are exposing DM and the abuses of the past.

For now that's more than good enough for me and I'm happy to see and even assist them in exposing little Nap and blowing apart his scam.

Who knows? They might even make Scientology user friendly, end the SO, coerced abortions, pay a living wage, shut down OSA, end fair gaming and revamp the abusive ethics and justice tech. Hell they might even start respecting the confidentiality of the confession.

Scientology manages to contradict itself so many ways that if you cherry picked, as all 'execs' have in the past you might even make it an evolving science.

Then again, maybe not. But right now any one that doesn't see that it is finally going in the right direction seems kinda odd to me..

[KnightVision]

Were you on staff? Were you in the SO? Were you a progressing public?

All of what you say here can be said about any and all of those in the categories listed above. That includes me.

I've witnessed a number of staff members and public who harassed, insulted and intimidated other scilons on a routine basis. That's what being an 'on purpose' scilon is all about; it's the means to achieving 'a cleared planet'. The vast majority of people who tried sci would have never continued for long unless the were relentlessly pursued by other staff and public who use any number of trained tactics to get at others and MAKE THEM DO IT. This is common scilon activity.

After leaving it took me a decade to fully realize that I was still running my arrogant 'I know more than you and thus am superior' bullshit on just about everyone I knew.

Just because some lower ranking scilons only 'pull off fingernails' in comparison to upper level staff or public who 'dismember whole limbs' does not make one a deplorable 'low life'; Scilonville breeds this type of psycho terrorist into every single one of it adepts. One's onslaught of others and the resulting damage to those targeted naturally increases as one moves 'up' the chain in processing or training whether public or staff.

Every person who makes it out deserves the chance to 'find out who they really are' but FOR REAL- not as described in the idiot's guide to ethics by L Con Hub.

Those who lay the blame on 'the management' are IMO trying to deflect attention away from their own wrongs and whoring days...



-snip- I think Rathbun and Rinder are the same low-lifes they were when they were still in Scientology. They are motivated by their self-interest now as they were then. -snip-

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Exactly.

We don't know what these guys will do with the cult, they see Ron's work with rose colored glasses and I want no part of the future of scientology or the bridge to nowhere, but they are exposing DM and the abuses of the past.

For now that's more than good enough for me and I'm happy to see and even assist them in exposing little Nap and blowing apart his scam.

Who knows? They might even make Scientology user friendly, end the SO, coerced abortions, pay a living wage, shut down OSA, end fair gaming and revamp the abusive ethics and justice tech. Hell they might even start respecting the confidentiality of the confession.

Scientology manages to contradict itself so many ways that if you cherry picked, as all 'execs' have in the past you might even make it an evolving science.

Then again, maybe not. But right now any one that doesn't see that it is finally going in the right direction seems kinda odd to me..

It's been going in the right direction for quite some time, the cult has been crumbling for a while now and of course this is all very good news.

The point here is Hubbard's policies are what drives the evil discussed in the article. Trying to distance and shelter Hubbard from his evil policies is insane. Miscavige is one of many criminals who used Hubbard's insane policies to justify his total disregard for the law. Once Miscagive is in prison and the names of the policies are sugar coated yet again, another hit man will take Miscagive's place to carry on the wash, rinse, spin cycle of Hubbard's totalitarian mind control cult known as Scientology.

[Panda Termint]

He's only being honest about what he thinks of these individuals. I think Rathbun and Rinder are the same low-lifes they were when they were still in Scientology. They are motivated by their self-interest now as they were then.

It is the reporters who are uncovering the truth, not Rinder and Rathbun.

The Anabaptist Jacques
TAJ, I get it, believe me!

I have no particular love for either of them and think Terril mispoke when he used the term Commendations, a loaded word for many here.

My actual point seems to be getting missed; Roland is not only telling us that he personally doesn't like them, he's using the CofS/OSA-provided dead-agent bullshit to explain why we should also consider feeling that way. Tell me your opinion by all means but don't bother telling me CofS' opinion of these guys, I already recognise the smell of bullshit-as-usual.

From previous exchanges with Roland I'm quite sure that he had no real intention of unthinkingly forwarding Command Intention on this matter but that's exactly what he did!

I think he should think about it and perhaps seek first aid for that bleeding foot! :)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

TAJ, I get, it believe me!

I have no particular love for either of them and think Terril accidently mispoke when he used the term Commendations, a loaded word for many here.

My actual point seems to be getting missed; Roland is not only telling us that he personally doesn't like them, he's using the CofS/OSA provided dead-agent bullshit to explain why we should also consider feeling that way. Tell me your opinion by all means but don't bother telling me CofS' opinion of these guys, I already know he smell of bullshit-as-usual.

From previous exchanges with Roland I'm quite sure that he had no real intention of unthinkingly forwarding Command Intention on this matter but that's exactly what he did!

I think he should think about it and perhaps seek first aid for that bleeding foot! :D

Terril just got his panties in a bunch because he's having a hard time accepting the fact that the root of all this evil is Hubbard and his policies.

Miscavige is a criminal but the abuses will not end with him they were created by design by Hubbard and not Miscavige. The only difference between Hubbard and Miscavige is Hubbard got off on ordering people to degrade and torturing his followers, where as Miscavige enjoys doing it himself. Miscavige and the Slave Org are just an extension of Hubbard himself.

[Panda Termint]

I hope you don't think any of that is news to me! :)

[MostlyLurker]

The fact that they expose the dictator, but not the Tech, I believe is a plus point. They may reach more people in, on a closer level of reality to get their agreement that the church need a change. We must get Scientologists to withdraw blind support to Co$, and start looking.

The priority, in my view, is the removal of the suppressive criminal dwarf and put an end to church crimes (disconnection, deceit, lies, staff & public abuse). Only when that is done, we will keep on fighting to make sure a new church (if there will be one) will not be based on lies, force and deception as the current one.

[Terril park]

Exactly.

We don't know what these guys will do with the cult, they see Ron's work with rose colored glasses and I want no part of the future of scientology or the bridge to nowhere, but they are exposing DM and the abuses of the past.

For now that's more than good enough for me and I'm happy to see and even assist them in exposing little Nap and blowing apart his scam.

Who knows? They might even make Scientology user friendly, end the SO, coerced abortions, pay a living wage, shut down OSA, end fair gaming and revamp the abusive ethics and justice tech. Hell they might even start respecting the confidentiality of the confession.

Scientology manages to contradict itself so many ways that if you cherry picked, as all 'execs' have in the past you might even make it an evolving science.

Then again, maybe not. But right now any one that doesn't see that it is finally going in the right direction seems kinda odd to me..

Marty is really part of the Freezone now. He was having too many clients to handle and has been in contact with other FZ auditors to help out.

It now seems feasible to speculate what might become of COS once
DM is gone.

If it were to survive I think there would have to be massive changes. It
is not only OK to jettison old policy no longer useful, but LRH says one should.
In other words its allowed.

If who ever is at the top in future genuinely goes to the roots of providing service rather than majoring on making money it may become viable again.

The Pilot had a vision of the Church and Freezone co-operating. That is possibly the only way the COS could survive. It clearly has to get rid of disconnection, and can no longer attack people, some trained by LRH, who
deliver tech without the downsides of being involved with the current COS.

So one might go to your local class VIII FZer for auditing, and then do your study in the COS. This latter being the weak point in the FZ. Telling independant auditors what they are allowed to charge of course should no
longer be possible.

Unless DM takes it all to Bulgravia there should be enough funds to immediately pay staff at least minimum wage, and carry on operating at a loss for some time, money flowing from up lines downward. Maybe after some time operating like this the COS may even once again become an acceptable organisation.

[Dulloldfart]

If who ever is at the top in future genuinely goes to the roots of providing service rather than majoring on making money it may become viable again.

Teensy-weensy problem — the past. There has been SO much criminality involving so many rip-offs that putting it right would be a Herculean task. I don't see it happening, without even getting into the question of whether or not it would be advisable. As soon as someone in authority in the CofS admits that the CofS has ripped people off in some way that opens the door to a huge number of lawsuits.

Imagine the IAS having to repay a large percentage of their fraudulently-obtained donations, for instance.

Paul

[CornPie]

...It is not only OK to jettison old policy no longer useful, but LRH says one should...

...The Pilot had a vision of the Church and Freezone co-operating...
Would somebody please remind The Amalgamated cOs-FZ, that when somebody laughs in their face about Xenu and BT's -- they should just learn to deal with it, rather than hide like scared mice -- as they do on L ron hubbard-Ass Blvd when protesters show up. Hopefully the Amalgamation will conclude that fairgaming is no longer "useful", as you say.

Other "religions" learned to deal with snickering people -- hundreds of years ago -- rather than unleashing hordes of Private Investigators (PI's) who harass them.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Would somebody please remind The Amalgamated cOs-FZ, that when somebody laughs in their face about Xenu and BT's -- they should just learn to deal with it, rather than hide like scared mice -- as they do on L ron hubbard-Ass Blvd when protesters show up. Hopefully the Amalgamation will conclude that fairgaming is no longer "useful", as you say.

Other "religions" learned to deal with snickering people -- hundreds of years ago.

It's easier said than done when the founder of your religion was a coward who never learned to confront reality himself. The man died in seclusion hiding from reality and clinging to his imaginary science fiction characters he created.

I wonder if Hubbard would have felt the need to create these imaginary playmates to entertain him if he grew up with siblings to play with as a child instead?

[Feral]

Teensy-weensy problem — the past. There has been SO much criminality involving so many rip-offs that putting it right would be a Herculean task. I don't see it happening, without even getting into the question of whether or not it would be advisable. As soon as someone in authority in the CofS admits that the CofS has ripped people off in some way that opens the door to a huge number of lawsuits.

Imagine the IAS having to repay a large percentage of their fraudulently-obtained donations, for instance.

Paul

This is very true, and despite who gets to run the CofS I still want my IAS money repaid. I also expect them to discharge their accumulated liabilities to staff and bilked public.

They may be selling a lot of buildings to pull this off, and will undoubtedly emerge much smaller than they are today.

I expect it will look like a feeding frenzy for a while.

[Veda]

-snip-

LRH says one should.
In other words its allowed.

-snip-



No need to cancel anything.

LRH wrote (publicly) that "Disconnection, Sec Checking, and Fair Game were cancelled in 1968."

With the mind f__k of the "OT levels/Class 8" still in place, and the ol' prevaricating paranoid megalomaniacal founder still revered by his trusting followers, all that's needed is to show them the "Reform Code" of 1968. Tell them that SPs ignored LRH, and it was all those SPs, SPs, SPs, and that "LRH Tech was out," etc.

Then they can proceed up the "Bridge" to Xenu at their Hubbard Guidance Center.

Sounds good. :clap:


:screwy:

[Terril park]

Teensy-weensy problem — the past. There has been SO much criminality involving so many rip-offs that putting it right would be a Herculean task. I don't see it happening, without even getting into the question of whether or not it would be advisable. As soon as someone in authority in the CofS admits that the CofS has ripped people off in some way that opens the door to a huge number of lawsuits.

Imagine the IAS having to repay a large percentage of their fraudulently-obtained donations, for instance.

Paul

As they say about lawyers at the bottom of the sea, "thats a
good start". :)

I suspect that there has been very little achieved in service to humanity from such donations, but with some accurate accounting, if thats possiible,
certain percentages could be returned. Then one should also look at what the money was used for and whether it was a valid purpose.

As Feral says, a lot of buildings will have to be sold. Downsizing in terms of
active members started long ago.

If deserved reparations re financial matters alone reduce drastically the size of COS and its members, that would be just.

What one sows one reaps, and Karma is a bitch.

[CornPie]

They're not going to let those empty buildings go. They're in "many" cities, within "many" countries worldwide, established beach heads for a CIA front. Keep your eyes and ears open.

[nexus100]

Marty is really part of the Freezone now. He was having too many clients to handle and has been in contact with other FZ auditors to help out.

It now seems feasible to speculate what might become of COS once
DM is gone.

If it were to survive I think there would have to be massive changes. It
is not only OK to jettison old policy no longer useful, but LRH says one should.
In other words its allowed.

If who ever is at the top in future genuinely goes to the roots of providing service rather than majoring on making money it may become viable again.

The Pilot had a vision of the Church and Freezone co-operating. That is possibly the only way the COS could survive. It clearly has to get rid of disconnection, and can no longer attack people, some trained by LRH, who
deliver tech without the downsides of being involved with the current COS.

So one might go to your local class VIII FZer for auditing, and then do your study in the COS. This latter being the weak point in the FZ. Telling independant auditors what they are allowed to charge of course should no
longer be possible.

Unless DM takes it all to Bulgravia there should be enough funds to immediately pay staff at least minimum wage, and carry on operating at a loss for some time, money flowing from up lines downward. Maybe after some time operating like this the COS may even once again become an acceptable organisation.

Wow. Marty has more PC's than he can handle. This is no doubt because he is a tech "expert". And of course there is a difference between operating the tech and having any idea of understanding of life, as in how to run one's own without being a domineering ogre. One can be running any sort of operation personally but the tech is the tech.

Does this not seem a tad disjunctive?

The "key to life" is NOT THE TECH! It is UNDERSTANDING! Does that make sense? That you can actually see what is going on over an entire field of vision? You see to the point where you do not ignore a million failed operations to support a pretense of success in one little fold. All of it begins to clear up a little. It begins to make sense how one person can treat others with utter disdain yet be looked upon as the coming sunrise a moment later, by some.

The reason is THE TECH. It DOES NOT WORK. It is idiotic nonsense to operate any other way. We have PROOF POSITIVE. You do not go overboard like Marty Rathbun and become the Dalia Lama overnight. You just don't. I have no wish for harm to come to Marty. I don't believe in amends or any such BS either. That's TECH. But the idea he can step into a "power position" in FZ land is so compelling an example of that horrible mess they call TECH that I have to point it out.

Oh, the irony!

[Ex_SaintHill]

I would also like to commend Marthy and Mike for the courage to speak out. I would like to also say that Tommy Davis is such a loony and liar.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Wow. Marty has more PC's than he can handle. This is no doubt because he is a tech "expert".

No it's because there are still a lot of audit junkies out there who have not realized that reality is their friend and the sooner they embrace it, the sooner they can get back to being functional.

[Mick Wenlock]

I do applaud Rinder and Rathbun speaking out - it is good to see them finally doing something ethical.

Actually my respect goes mostly to Amy Scobee who was at INt, was in management, did not beat people up and who was willing to get out there and speak.

I wish Rinder and Rathbun all the best for he future but I wonder how they will fare when the full horror of what they have done hits them.

[Zinjifar]

I do applaud Rinder and Rathbun speaking out - it is good to see them finally doing something ethical.

Actually my respect goes mostly to Amy Scobee who was at INt, was in management, did not beat people up and who was willing to get out there and speak.

I wish Rinder and Rathbun all the best for he future but I wonder how they will fare when the full horror of what they have done hits them.

I wonder if it ever will. We haven't really heard much from Mike Rinder yet, and, it seems he's the one the 'Church' is more worried about. Although it's great that Marty is 'speaking out', what he has to say is eyewash. If we're to go by what he's earlier said here on ESMB, he feels little to no culpability for the activities of the 'Church', legal or not, and some of his preferred story line, such as his comments on 'disconnection' are deliberately misleading.

Maybe Mike will do better.

But, Terril's adulation *should* go a long way towards discrediting whatever flavor of 'independent' Scientology he seems to think he's representing. Bad Terril!

Zinj

[Terril park]

But, Terril's adulation *should* go a long way towards discrediting whatever flavor of 'independent' Scientology he seems to think he's representing. Bad Terril!

Zinj

There are such things as second chances, and thats a scientology tradition.

Note that Marty's had several years to destim. If you recall he spent 2 years on the Freewinds recieving auditing and training. He was subsequently
thought good enough to audit class XIIs.

He also auditing quite a few celebrities, and these I guess are the people
who are doing services with him. Perhaps no co-incidence that Jason Begue is on his website.

I've had comm with someone who's opinions I greatly respect who met and made peace with Marty after he left the church. Marty is also working with Ken Urquhart who is very well known in the FZ for being an outstanding auditor.

Marty is being a stand up guy and speaking up despite personal danger.

Its odd that those who wish to see the demise of DM, or the COS are quite
happy to denigrate the person who is most likely to bring that about.

You can safely leave that to Davis and his comments re "whole track prison warden". And note that he's trying to defend a current prison warden!

[Zinjifar]

I can hardly wait till the Churchies and the Zonies televise their 'Celebrity Face Rip'

'We've got more celebrities than you! Nyaaah nyahh''

Zinj

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

There are such things as second chances, and thats a scientology tradition.

Note that Marty's had several years to destim. If you recall he spent 2 years on the Freewinds recieving auditing and training. He was subsequently
thought good enough to audit class XIIs.

He also auditing quite a few celebrities, and these I guess are the people
who are doing services with him. Perhaps no co-incidence that Jason Begue is on his website.

I've had comm with someone who's opinions I greatly respect who met and made peace with Marty after he left the church. Marty is also working with Ken Urquhart who is very well known in the FZ for being an outstanding auditor.

Marty is being a stand up guy and speaking up despite personal danger.

Its odd that those who wish to see the demise of DM, or the COS are quite
happy to denigrate the person who is most likely to bring that about.

You can safely leave that to Davis and his comments re "whole track prison warden". And note that he's trying to defend a current prison warden!

Speaking for myself:

1. I 'ain't a Scientologist and I don't care what the traditions are.

2. I say he is a weasel. You can use the old Scientology tradition of trying to introvert me by condemning those who denigrating him (wasn't it you who said earlier on this thread about how bad it is to make someone guilty of an overt?) but I couldn't care less. Scientology traditions don't work on me anymore.

3. When DM "finds Jesus" I can't wait to see how you praise him.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

There are such things as second chances, and thats a scientology tradition.



I'm sure David Miscavige will be happy to know he is welcome with open arms to work with you according to your "second chances" tradition. The work he did directly with Hubbard will be a major asset for you.

[Challenge]

I wonder if it ever will. We haven't really heard much from Mike Rinder yet, and, it seems he's the one the 'Church' is more worried about. Although it's great that Marty is 'speaking out', what he has to say is eyewash. If we're to go by what he's earlier said here on ESMB, he feels little to no culpability for the activities of the 'Church', legal or not, and some of his preferred story line, such as his comments on 'disconnection' are deliberately misleading.

Maybe Mike will do better.

But, Terril's adulation *should* go a long way towards discrediting whatever flavor of 'independent' Scientology he seems to think he's representing. Bad Terril!

Zinj

Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng

[SchwimmelPuckel]

There are such things as second chances, and thats a scientology tradition. <snip>Yea.. When you've recvovered your persoal financial ruin and have earned some more money.. But if you were declared, that wil never ever be forgotten.

Hmm.. Anticipating events.. The Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology may be about to crash.. This new story in St.Pete Times will make a lot of scilons break lose I think. And Mr.Rathbun certainly is part of the cause. Rinder and Voght too.. And Amy Scobee.

But let's not forget that they are just the latest to speak out. There has been many before. Very prominent scientologists too!

Ok, if the CoS falls now.. Remnants being taken over by 'responsible' freezoners.

Are we supposed to hop with joy and happiness?

I'm not, because I think the blueprint for the totalitarian hell on earth is in Hubbard's programme.

But I didn't use to think so.. I had bought in to CoS's PR hype for newbies with money at div 6 in the local org.

I expected scientologists to be nearly perfect citizens. With everybody being scientologists, we'd be safe against electing an idiot for president. Since clears and those above would vote really intelligently... And should we, by some mishap, end up with a psychotic dictator, we'd make short shift of such a character... In short: Scientologists would be able to create and maintain a 'theta' society. Without crime and insanity..

Well, we can observe right now, that scientologists fall helplessly into effect of a complete dimwit for a dictator. They can't observe their own most holy of holiest guideline for judging management of their own 3D, the stats! - They sit at events and cheer over obvious lies about unprecedented expansion. They gobble up hostile and evil rethoric about psychs and SP's! They're turning into bloody fascists!

The astounding thing we learn these days.. Is that Scientology and its parishoners needs the SP's and WOG's to get rid of their idiot leader!

And that was not the plan I think..

:hattip:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Yea.. When you've recvovered your persoal financial ruin and have earned some more money.. But if you were declared, that wil never ever be forgotten.

Hmm.. Anticipating events.. The Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology may be about to crash.. This new story in St.Pete Times will make a lot of scilons break lose I think. And Mr.Rathbun certainly is part of the cause. Rinder and Voght too.. And Amy Scobee.

But let's not forget that they are just the latest to speak out. There has been many before. Very prominent scientologists too!

Ok, if the CoS falls now.. Remnants being taken over by 'responsible' freezoners.

Are we supposed to hop with joy and happiness?

I'm not, because I think the blueprint for the totalitarian hell on earth is in Hubbard's programme.

But I didn't use to think so.. I had bought in to CoS's PR hype for newbies with money at div 6 in the local org.

I expected scientologists to be nearly perfect citizens. With everybody being scientologists, we'd be safe against electing an idiot for president. Since clears and those above would vote really intelligently... And should we, by some mishap, end up with a psychotic dictator, we'd make short shift of such a character... In short: Scientologists would be able to create and maintain a 'theta' society. Without crime and insanity..

Well, we can observe right now, that scientologists fall helplessly into effect of a complete dimwit for a dictator. They can't observe their own most holy of holiest guideline for judging management of their own 3D, the stats! - They sit at events and cheer over obvious lies about unprecedented expansion. They gobble up hostile and evil rethoric about psychs and SP's! They're turning into bloody fascists!

The astounding thing we learn these days.. Is that Scientologys and its parishoners needs the SP's and WOG's to get rid of their idiot leader!

And that was not the plan I think..

:hattip:

The next marketing plan will be ...

We found out David Miscavige was doing "blah blah blah <insert excuses for Hubbard's failed "Tech"> and now that David Miscavige is out of the Church of Scientology and running the Second Chance version of Scientology in the Freezone, we can finally move forward and deliver what Hubbard promised.

All major Credit Cards are Welcome.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

And may Scientology never lack SP's and WOG's to help them get rid of their idiot leaders!

:duh:

[Tiger Lily]

Having been just public, and never on lines at anything bigger than a class V org, I never heard these names while I was in. I don't know if they were scum. are scum, what their motivations are, anything.

But I do know that while I was in I justified all kinds of things as being OK because I was convinced it was the greatest good. I lied to my family about such things as Scientology embraces all religions (when I knew that it didn't) and pretended wins I didn't have to make it seem to them like a good thing. I fell into traps of thinking I was superior to others because i was a Scientologist. I knew about fair game but thought it was OK because Scientology was THAT important. My mind was all messed up. . . and that was at the lowest levels of involvement.

I can only imagine what I would have done with more commitment and responsibility. I'm not going to condemn these guys, even if they've done some bad things. What they are doing right now is very good.

-TL

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Having been just public, and never on lines at anything bigger than a class V org, I never heard these names while I was in. I don't know if they were scum. are scum, what their motivations are, anything.

But I do know that while I was in I justified all kinds of things as being OK because I was convinced it was the greatest good. I lied to my family about such things as Scientology embraces all religions (when I knew that it didn't) and pretended wins I didn't have to make it seem to them like a good thing. I fell into traps of thinking I was superior to others because i was a Scientologist. I knew about fair game but thought it was OK because Scientology was THAT important. My mind was all messed up. . . and that was at the lowest levels of involvement.

I can only imagine what I would have done with more commitment and responsibility. I'm not going to condemn these guys, even if they've done some bad things. What they are doing right now is very good.

-TL

Yep, me too, TL. :faceslap:

EP

[Zinjifar]

I can only imagine what I would have done with more commitment and responsibility. I'm not going to condemn these guys, even if they've done some bad things. What they are doing right now is very good.

-TL

It's not about 'condemning' them; there's nothing we can do to them. What is important though is to realize that 'they' (actually Marty in this case, since Mike hasn't said much yet) have an agenda. That agenda is to, as far as possible, distance themselves from any crimes they and their 'Church' have committed, deny any responsibility and as far as possible distract from the systemic nature of criminality in Scientology and divert attention to a single 'target'; David Miscavige.

I would hope that any Ex or even current Scientologist reading or hearing the level of self-serving revisionism we're being served would have all the alarms and bells and whistles going off by now. What's sad is that for some, the standard cultic hero worship and adulation of 'saviors' continues.

Is Marty's statement 'useful'? Yes, certainly. But, it's *intended* to be first and foremost useful for *him*.

Zinj

[Terril park]

Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng

Our FZ forums have had people on them who were OSA. We know that.
Just as here someone can join, never post, and get whatever names they wish. [So they could anyway here as this is a public forum], but our FZ forums are private, but operate in essentially the same way.

Whether OSA has the manpower to spare for monitoring our forums anymore I doubt, they are swamped with far more serious problems.

Note also that probably most success stories I post have the auditors name, and sometime phone no, and often the PCs name.

Off the top of my head I don't know a freezone auditor who wishes to be anonymous.

[Terril park]

I'm sure David Miscavige will be happy to know he is welcome with open arms to work with you according to your "second chances" tradition. The work he did directly with Hubbard will be a major asset for you.

I didn't say he'd be welcome, and he is abhored by freezoners.

[CornPie]

...They [Marty in this case, since Mike hasn't said much yet] have an agenda. That agenda is to, as far as possible, distance themselves from any crimes they and their 'Church' have committed, deny any responsibility...
I pulled this quote yesterday from Graham Berry's post, "However, their [i.e. former high ranking scientologists] time to move and repent [i.e. make a deal with the district attorney] is rapidly running out."

I think my inserted brackets make the quote more readable, I'm very sorry if not.

It came from his 1st post of this thread:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=12009

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I didn't say he'd be welcome, and he is abhored by freezoners.

At least you guys are consistent with Hubbard's policies I'll give you that ... only people who can bring in the cash or bodies into the movement get an option at a second chance. Miscavige would be too much of a liability to offer a second change, it would be about as foolish as offering Hubbard a second chance. Miscavige is way too much like Hubbard to be marketable.

[Tim Skog]

Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng

Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?

[Dulloldfart]

Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?

Until I have evidence to the contrary I will take them at face value. I believe the SPT first contacted them, not the other way around. And didn't Rinder refuse to help them at first?

Currently I think of Rinder as a slimeball. He'll have to perform very well in tomorrow's SPT issue or elsewhere for me to change that opinion. I wonder if there are videos of him that the SPT will release tomorrow. I have read from people that knew him that he used to be a nice guy. The few times I saw him in the flesh, and all the times I saw him on TV, he didn't look like one, but there is Zimbardo's under-appreciated data about both dispositional and situational factors affecting how one operates in a particular time and place. I find I usually consider only the dispositional ones and forget how the situational ones may have equal importance according to Zimbardo's research (see his relatively new book The Lucifer Effect).

Paul

[Mick Wenlock]

Having been just public, and never on lines at anything bigger than a class V org, I never heard these names while I was in. I don't know if they were scum. are scum, what their motivations are, anything.

But I do know that while I was in I justified all kinds of things as being OK because I was convinced it was the greatest good. I lied to my family about such things as Scientology embraces all religions (when I knew that it didn't) and pretended wins I didn't have to make it seem to them like a good thing. I fell into traps of thinking I was superior to others because i was a Scientologist. I knew about fair game but thought it was OK because Scientology was THAT important. My mind was all messed up. . . and that was at the lowest levels of involvement.

I can only imagine what I would have done with more commitment and responsibility. I'm not going to condemn these guys, even if they've done some bad things. What they are doing right now is very good.

-TL

Hi TL,

There is a moral difference in lying to your family about something you are embarrassed about and lying to the authorities about how somebody in your care died.

There is a huge moral difference between lying about your wins and beating someone up.

Just because you had the same sort of feeling of motivation does not excuse what they did.

It also casts a pall over what they are doing NOW.

Mike Rinder was a friend of mine in my SO days, we did a mission together, we bumped into each at various times during our careers. I like Mike, I enjoyed his company and I would probably enjoy it again.

But that's beside the point of the uncomfortable moral aspect of things.

For the last 20 or so years - both Mike and Marty have, by their own statements helped Miscavige run a reign of terror on Scientologists and Sea Org members.

Families have been split up by their actions, people have lost jobs, people have gone bankrupt.

What would it take for you to condemn people who have done that sort of thing?

I was in international management, I helped set up and run the IAS/IMU, I was the CO of AOSH EU, I was the D/CO EU. I did missions - so many of them I have lost count.

In all my time, and in all my stressful situations NOT ONCE did I ever lay a hand on anyone - in fact I never raised a hand even at a distance, I never "got in someone's face" and yet, unlike Miscavige Rinder and Rathbun - I actually have a history of being in fights prior to my time in the SO. I actually fought people who fought back. I was a biker.

In all my stressful situations I never once regged someone just because I was ordered to - in fact I refused on several occasions, once because I thought that the prospect did not understand what he was doing - even though he had the money.

So the truth of the matter is that no-one needs to sell his or her conscience to be in the SO - you only need to sell it if your position, your power means more to you than your own personal integrity (and I don't mean that bogus "integrity" Hubbard waffled on about).

Neither Rathbun nor Rinder stood up to MIscavige, neither told him to fuck off when he ordered them to do things that they obviously did not feel right doing. They preferred to do unto others rather than be done unto.


Both of them lied to Miscavige in order to keep their positions - why on earth would you assume they are speaking the whole truth now? I applaud them being interviewed and answering the questions but that does not buy them any grace.

[Voltaire's Child]

:violin:

Anyone who continues to promote Hubbard as anything other than a piece of shit, is insulting everyone who suffered as a result of the policies he created


Not true at all. We all have the right to follow our hearts, philosophy-wise. That does not "insult" or negate anyone else. To insult someone else, one would have to insult that person.

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?



Yes. It's all a Freezone plot. So's global warming.

[Voltaire's Child]

Here's an off-the -wall theory for ya. Suppose DM and his henchmen have worked up a program wherein Marty ( and Rinder) are said to 'blow' COS, and soon enter the FZ. They get the names, addresses, all the data that they can on the FZ's associates, including the PCs and all other interested parties. The mailing lists. These they hand over to COS, and DM files a RICO suit against the FZ.
I know. I know. Crazy theory. But you know what? Don't put it past them. The actions of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in the recent past shows them , clearly, to be capable of any ugly thing that serves their purpose.
I agree with some others here. Even Roland. I think they are were scum, are scum, and always will be scum.
Terrill's promoting Marty as a Freezoner will be enough to keep the informed person as far away from the FZ as he can get. More PCs than Marty can handle? I wonder how many of them are "Churchies"?

Chlng


Disgusting, Challenge. You've said things like this about people before. Like when someone (on a forum to which you also post ) was expelled and declared, you said that this could be some kind of op.

So people have to prove they're not witches, looks like.

This is the kind of sick paranoid poisonous crap that I find to be a major problem in the critic's scene and I'm disgusted with your repetitive perpetuation of it.

[Voltaire's Child]

I wonder if it ever will. We haven't really heard much from Mike Rinder yet, and, it seems he's the one the 'Church' is more worried about. Although it's great that Marty is 'speaking out', what he has to say is eyewash. If we're to go by what he's earlier said here on ESMB, he feels little to no culpability for the activities of the 'Church', legal or not, and some of his preferred story line, such as his comments on 'disconnection' are deliberately misleading.

Maybe Mike will do better.

But, Terril's adulation *should* go a long way towards discrediting whatever flavor of 'independent' Scientology he seems to think he's representing. Bad Terril!

Zinj


Why would Terril's "adulation" be any kind of discredit? Terril's a nice and helpful person. You may not agree with his philosophical choices but he has no problem with yours or anyone else's.

[Voltaire's Child]

I agree 100% with the asshole. I have no sympathy for either of them.

By that I mean there is no reason to believe either of them would operate differently if circumstances were the same as before. No reason to think that they have changed perspectives or are willing to offer up honest viewpoints. There is reason to believe their support of the attack on the COS is the safest route for both of them.

I think it is at best disingenuous to play the commendation card, an odiferous relic of Hubbardism, in support of auditors whose methodology has been so, so much the opposite of what spiritual freedom is supposed to create.

As I quoted earlier, politics makes for strange bedfellows.


I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

[Voltaire's Child]

It's quite unusual to see you doing OSA's work for them, Roland.



No, it's really not.

[uniquemand]

Silly theory, Challenge.

Most of the people in the FZ are already "out", and quite public about it, in terms of practitioners. It might be possible that they'd like to learn more about the FZ, as where they are getting their materials, which PUBLIC are getting services from them, etc.

Thinking that you are truly an anonymous FreeZoner is almost completely ridiculous, these days. It's child's play to track people's email and posts to their homes. Even I know that, now.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Not true at all. We all have the right to follow our hearts, philosophy-wise. That does not "insult" or negate anyone else. To insult someone else, one would have to insult that person.

Sure you do, why wouldn't you? Just as everyone else has the right to discuss the evil Hubbard perpetrated or the evil his totalitarian policies have inflicted on the victims unfortunate enough to have been left in the path of Scientology's goal.

[nexus100]

I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

That's the point. They havent asked anything. Rathbun has stepped into a role he has never stepped out of, lord and master of his domain. Instead of taking the step of being understood as would happen eventually on ESMB he continues to play God, at a distance. The question was not who they are better or worse than, it is who they are now.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

Integrity? Give me a break, that's like claiming a hit man who ran to the police for protection, after the mob he worked for put out a contract out of him ... has integrity. And now we should all now praise him because he's trying to cover his ass while cash in on a story claiming he was only trying to help the victims while stopping the mob's illegal activities.

Sure I'm glad the cult is being exposed, but this does not make them heroes this makes them human and they still have a long way to go. They have ruined many lives in the name of Hubbard and the longer they and others like them stayed silence the more lives were and still are destroyed by Hubbard's insane policies. They are still acting Hubbard like and refusing to accept any responsibility for their actions. Yeah lets all blame everything on Miscavige since everyone already knows Miscavige is trying to act just as psychotic as his mentor Hubbard.

The true heroes are the ones who fight to this story out and expose the cult, such as the journalists who put this story together.

[auntpat]

Dear Mick Wenlot, you mentioned that Marty and Mike had not bought any grace with their speaking out. Grace is not bought it is freely given unconditionly, and is truly Amazing.:yes:

[Mick Wenlock]

Dear Mick Wenlot, you mentioned that Marty and Mike had not bought any grace with their speaking out. Grace is not bought it is freely given unconditionly, and is truly Amazing.:yes:

as I am not a believer then your statement is incorrect. grace is not given by anyone.

You are free to believe as you wish but please do not bother to correct me when I do not even subscribe to your belief system.

You may also want to check my screen name (which is also my real name)

[Mick Wenlock]

I don't believe they've asked for anyone's sympathy.

Leaving the cult was a step for them. It showed a bit of integrity. Going public showed even more. You don't have to like them or "feel sympthy for" them. But they are doing something. That's more than some people who are still in the church and who are totally aware of the abuses can say.

Well they didn't "go public" they were contacted and persuaded.

But they did answer the questions, they were willing to talk.

It's a good baby step.

But they did not do something when it actually could have meant something - when they were in. As you point out in fact.

When the times called for courage - they bottled out.

I do not think they have found courage yet.

[Terril park]

as I am not a believer then your statement is incorrect. grace is not given by anyone.

You are free to believe as you wish but please do not bother to correct me when I do not even subscribe to your belief system.

You may also want to check my screen name (which is also my real name)

OK Word clearing mode. :)

World book Dict def 1] Beauty of form, movement or manner. [ the ballet dancer danced with much grace. ]

[ skip rest of defs in true FZ word clearing style. :) ]

This is grace given by someone. To the obsever.

OK going nerdish for the mo.

The great motoring writer LJK Setright of Car magazine [brit]talked of handling, and specifically of the Fiat 130, a fast tourer of yonks ago having
" Grace under pressure."

Grace is not in the tech dict.

Marty and the others were sure under pressure. Only seen Marty and Amy, grace ? Oh Yeah.

Tommy Davis? Poor fellow, I see an innocent digging his hole deeper.

I'm inclined to think his hot mom will start showing grace. :)

[Zinjifar]

There is little doubt in my mind that Marty Rathbun or Mike rinder, individually or together could *stop* the ongoing criminality of the 'Church' of Scientology within weeks. Admittedly, not without jeopardy to themselves.

They have so far chosen not to. I'm not a prosecutor or jailer, but, I'm also not inclined to award them little tin 'hero' badges.

Zinj

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

OK Word clearing mode. :)

World book Dict def 1] Beauty of form, movement or manner. [ the ballet dancer danced with much grace. ]

[ skip rest of defs in true FZ word clearing style. :) ]

This is grace given by someone. To the obsever.

OK going nerdish for the mo.

The great motoring writer LJK Setright of Car magazine [brit]talked of handling, and specifically of the Fiat 130, a fast tourer of yonks ago having
" Grace under pressure."

Grace is not in the tech dict.

Marty and the others were sure under pressure. Only seen Marty and Amy, grace ? Oh Yeah.

Tommy Davis? Poor fellow, I see an innocent digging his hole deeper.

I'm inclined to think his hot mom will start showing grace. :)

They're not talking about Fred Astaire, they are referring to grace as mercy or indulgence.

You know, Scientology word clearing loses the fluidness of language and intertextual conceptions and tends to make one literal. But that's a story for another thread.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Voltaire's Child]

Baby steps. I'm just glad they're doing something!

A very silly exchange with a party line churchie is so fresh in my mind right now, so when I see someone actually go ahead and publicly disclose some of the unsavory events in CofS, it's downright refreshing.

Could they do more? Possibly. But it's a start. I see where Mick's coming from.

[nozeno]

Anyone who falls for a ponzi scheme too can get a profit from it if they get out in time. That doesn't mean ponzi schemes are not a black and white issue.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Not always, as with life in general it's a little more complicated than that.

For example you could have been involved with the infamous Bernie Madoff or Art Nadel, hedge fund manager from Sarasota, Fl.

I was indirectly involved in my business with one of them and I can tell you that the investors that got out early are subject to so-called clawback type lawsuits by the investors who weren't lucky enough to get out while the gettin' was good.

Whether or not the "unlucky" ones will recover anything from these types of investment/ponzi schemes is a long drawn out procedure in which mostly the lawyers win.

So you are right, it is not black and white and sometimes the ones that ran to the exit first have to return the clams to the ones at the back of the line. However in my experience I've seen that shells are broken and the clams are squooshed all over the place.

[nozeno]

Fair Game, disconnection, the chain locker, keelhauling, sec-checks, intel, vicious attacks of perceived enemies, beans and rice, deplorable conditions for families, ridiculous pay, etc. were all part of the LRH era. The Midget COB has only magnified and intensified these reprehensible activities. And Marty's splitting hairs on confessionals versus sec-checks -- puhleez... the culling of overts, evil intentions, withholds, discreditable acts, thoughts, compulsions, sexual indiscretions, etc. FROM PC FOLDERS, NOT SEC CHECK OR ETHICS RECORDS by the GO and now OSA for use in attacking/suppressing the disaffected -- yes, Marty, it was Saint LRH.

The rest of his interview was wonderful.

Gotta luv that Marty!

How'd ya like to be audited by him?

"PICK UP THE CANS MUTHERFUGGER OR I"LL SMASH YOUR FACE!"

Nice to have you back. Did you go to the bathroom and fall in?

[Terril park]

They're not talking about Fred Astaire, they are referring to grace as mercy or indulgence.

You know, Scientology word clearing loses the fluidness of language and intertextual conceptions and tends to make one literal. But that's a story for another thread.

The Anabaptist Jacques


MICK
"Both of them lied to Miscavige in order to keep their positions - why on earth would you assume they are speaking the whole truth now? I applaud them being interviewed and answering the questions but that does not buy them any grace."

BB
3] " Goodwill, favour."

4] Mercy; clemency; pardon; forgiveness.

Well spotted AJ. Missed this earlier post by Mick.

Others may consider it buys them some grace.

[Tiger Lily]

It's not about 'condemning' them; there's nothing we can do to them. What is important though is to realize that 'they' (actually Marty in this case, since Mike hasn't said much yet) have an agenda. That agenda is to, as far as possible, distance themselves from any crimes they and their 'Church' have committed, deny any responsibility and as far as possible distract from the systemic nature of criminality in Scientology and divert attention to a single 'target'; David Miscavige.

I would hope that any Ex or even current Scientologist reading or hearing the level of self-serving revisionism we're being served would have all the alarms and bells and whistles going off by now. What's sad is that for some, the standard cultic hero worship and adulation of 'saviors' continues.

Is Marty's statement 'useful'? Yes, certainly. But, it's *intended* to be first and foremost useful for *him*.

Zinj

Zinj, you may be right. They may have seen something coming and decided to save their own skins. Or not. I don't know, I have no way of knowing that. (Does it really matter?). They ARE exposing crimes of the church. And that is good.

Don't worry, no more "cultic hero worship and adulation" of anyone for me, and probably not for most here. I don't have these guys on any kind of a pedestal, I wouldn't be surprised if they are self-serving scum (if they hadn't been scum already, Scientology is surely capable of creating monsters) but I think it's worth entertaining the possibility that they are waking up and have finally decided to do what they can to change it.

In any case, I'm going to enjoy the show.

-TL

[MostlyLurker]

That's the point. They havent asked anything. Rathbun has stepped into a role he has never stepped out of, lord and master of his domain. Instead of taking the step of being understood as would happen eventually on ESMB he continues to play God, at a distance. The question was not who they are better or worse than, it is who they are now.

They are still scientologists. An ex-scientologist forum, even if filled with nice good people like us, may not suit their interest.

In a way they are taking responsibility for their church, and that is good. Would Scientology drop all the abusive behavior should Miscavige be overthrown? I can't but hope so.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

They are still scientologists. An ex-scientologist forum, even if filled with nice good people like us, may not suit their interest.

In a way they are taking responsibility for their church, and that is good.

I might have missed something here, could you please help me understand how they are taking responsibility for their church?

[MostlyLurker]

I might have missed something here, could you please help me understand how they are taking responsibility for their church?

Instead of blindly follow the dwarf or keep quiet, like most churchies do, they step forward and attacked him. That is doing something for a change. They consider themselves scientologists and care for the tech? I have nothing against that. I hope, if they succeed in having Miscavige removed, that they, (or the future leaders of the cult) will remove with Misvcavige all the abusive practices, the lies, disconnections, deceit and more that we all hate.

[Dulloldfart]

I hope, if they succeed in having Miscavige removed, that they, (or the future leaders of the cult) will remove with Misvcavige all the abusive practices, the lies, disconnections, deceit and more that we all hate.

If these future leaders do that, there will be nothing left.

I don't mean that in the snarky sense of the CofS being composed only of those things, but from the viewpoint that if they put things to rights, and make people whole (in the legal financial sense) there will be nothing left in the coffers.

Which would be fitting.

Paul

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Instead of blindly follow the dwarf or keep quiet, like most churchies do, they step forward and attacked him. That is doing something for a change. They consider themselves scientologists and care for the tech? I have nothing against that. I hope, if they succeed in having Miscavige removed, that they, (or the future leaders of the cult) will remove with Misvcavige all the abusive practices, the lies, disconnections, deceit and more that we all hate.

But Miscavige is about as close to a model Scientologist leader that Hubbard intended, as you can get.

The only problem Hubbard would have with is Miscavige is that he takes too much credit for the cult. Scientologists are not supposed to give credit to anyone but Hubbard himself.

I personally think Miscavige belongs in prison, but that doesn't absolve Hubbard and his sadistic totalitarian policies that created him. There are plenty of Ronbots just waiting for a chance to take Miscavige's place running the wash, rinse, spin cycle of Hubbard's totalitarian cult

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Instead of blindly follow the dwarf or keep quiet, like most churchies do, they step forward and attacked him. That is doing something for a change. They consider themselves scientologists and care for the tech? I have nothing against that. I hope, if they succeed in having Miscavige removed, that they, (or the future leaders of the cult) will remove with Misvcavige all the abusive practices, the lies, disconnections, deceit and more that we all hate.


The Tech they love is totalitarian and abusive. Miscaviage, and Rathbun and Rinder when they were in, were following command intention.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[MostlyLurker]

But Miscavige is about as close to a model Scientologist leader that Hubbard intended as you can get.

The only problem Hubbard would have with is Miscavige is that he takes too much credit for the cult. Scientologists are not supposed to give credit to anyone but Hubbard himself.

I personally think Miscavige belongs in prison, but that doesn't absolve Hubbard and his sadistic totalitarian policies that created him. There are plenty of Ronbots just waiting for a chance to take Miscavige's place running the wash, rinse, spin cycle of Hubbard's totalitarian cult

Right. I just hope a lesson will be learned.

I have a long list of wishes for the church that includes no confidentiality on anything written by LRH, cancellation of policies, the reform points of The Pilot and much more, but it is pure speculation. (How do you call that - wishful thinking?)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Right. I just hope a lesson will be learned.

I have a long list of wishes for the church that includes no confidentiality on anything written by LRH, cancellation of policies, the reform points of The Pilot and much more, but it is pure speculation. (How do you call that - wishful thinking?)

I call that creating a new religion that has little resemblance to what Hubbard intended

[MostlyLurker]

If these future leaders do that, there will be nothing left.

I don't mean that in the snarky sense of the CofS being composed only of those things, but from the viewpoint that if they put things to rights, and make people whole (in the legal financial sense) there will be nothing left in the coffers.

Which would be fitting.

Paul

That is possible.

Supposing Miscavige will go home (or to prison), and an actual change will occur (which is not granted either), there will be a reform or revolution?

It comes to mind Mikhail Gorbaciov. How to reform the Soviet Union avoiding its dissolution?

[Feral]

There is little doubt in my mind that Marty Rathbun or Mike rinder, individually or together could *stop* the ongoing criminality of the 'Church' of Scientology within weeks. Admittedly, not without jeopardy to themselves.

They have so far chosen not to. I'm not a prosecutor or jailer, but, I'm also not inclined to award them little tin 'hero' badges.

Zinj

Right, but I'm willing to sit back and see how it all turns out.

Napoleon (the real one) said; "Never interrupt an opponent while he is making an error"

He could have also said, "Never interrupt anyone while they besiege an enemies fortress, even if you don't trust them"

[Zinjifar]

It comes to mind Mikhail Gorbaciov. How to reform the Soviet Union avoiding its dissolution?

The analogy is probably apt. Mikhail Gorbachev never intended to free the Soviet Union or end the domination by the Communist Party. But, faced with the impossibility of continuing on the same or a more repressive course, he attempted to make *minor* changes that were as close to cosmetic as possible. That was enough to completely slip the reins.

Zinj

[uniquemand]

That is possible.

Supposing Miscavige will go home (or to prison), and an actual change will occur (which is not granted either), there will be a reform or revolution?

It comes to mind Mikhail Gorbaciov. How to reform the Soviet Union avoiding its dissolution?

Any effort to reform the Church of Scientology has to hinge around transparency and accountability, which would by definition require termination of confidentiality of Tech and Admin issues, such that all Scientologists knew which policies and bulletins the Church was operating on. With that done, they could make intelligent decisions about which ones to keep, and which ones to toss out (anything advocating confidentiality would be a good place to start, and I'm not talking about PC folders, I'm talking about issues which are "confidential": sekrit).

I am not sure such a reform is possible, nor am I sure that there is a figure in the FZ or in the Church around whom people would rally if corporate dissolution occurred and a Reformed Church was attempted. Had Ken Ogger been around, a lot of people might have gone for that, twelve years ago. I can think of no FZ Scientology name that has the same power, right now, and am unaware if there is a leader in the Church that people might trust, "technically".

[MostlyLurker]

I call that creating a new religion that has little resemblance to what Hubbard intended


That is an old question. The good part of scientology is there to entrap people into the dark part, or on the contrary the dark secretive scientology is there to protect the good part?

I believe in taking just the good part and expose and throw away the rest. That would certainly be a different church.

By the way, in the Marty interview I saw an effort to protect LRH and move LRH responsibility to Miscavige, and I didn't like that. He said that LRH was fed with false reports and for that reason he allowed "disconnection" to be reinstated in 1983.

I wonder if he could explain away all the flaw and shortcomings of Scientology and LRH in a similar way. There would be a better church anyway, but keeping LRH on a pedestal will have the danger of somebody coming up with the "recovery of lost tech" and re-implementing the abusive practices in the future. That's no good.

Scientology should make known that LRH was fallible, that the tech was developed by the combined effort of many people, and some LRH polices are just plain wrong.

Scientology must evolve, must cleanup his past and openly move forward.

Just food for thought.:D

[Tiger Lily]

Hi TL,

There is a moral difference in lying to your family about something you are embarrassed about and lying to the authorities about how somebody in your care died.

There is a huge moral difference between lying about your wins and beating someone up.

Just because you had the same sort of feeling of motivation does not excuse what they did.

It also casts a pall over what they are doing NOW.

Mike Rinder was a friend of mine in my SO days, we did a mission together, we bumped into each at various times during our careers. I like Mike, I enjoyed his company and I would probably enjoy it again.

But that's beside the point of the uncomfortable moral aspect of things.

For the last 20 or so years - both Mike and Marty have, by their own statements helped Miscavige run a reign of terror on Scientologists and Sea Org members.

Families have been split up by their actions, people have lost jobs, people have gone bankrupt.

What would it take for you to condemn people who have done that sort of thing?

I was in international management, I helped set up and run the IAS/IMU, I was the CO of AOSH EU, I was the D/CO EU. I did missions - so many of them I have lost count.

In all my time, and in all my stressful situations NOT ONCE did I ever lay a hand on anyone - in fact I never raised a hand even at a distance, I never "got in someone's face" and yet, unlike Miscavige Rinder and Rathbun - I actually have a history of being in fights prior to my time in the SO. I actually fought people who fought back. I was a biker.

In all my stressful situations I never once regged someone just because I was ordered to - in fact I refused on several occasions, once because I thought that the prospect did not understand what he was doing - even though he had the money.

So the truth of the matter is that no-one needs to sell his or her conscience to be in the SO - you only need to sell it if your position, your power means more to you than your own personal integrity (and I don't mean that bogus "integrity" Hubbard waffled on about).

Neither Rathbun nor Rinder stood up to MIscavige, neither told him to fuck off when he ordered them to do things that they obviously did not feel right doing. They preferred to do unto others rather than be done unto.


Both of them lied to Miscavige in order to keep their positions - why on earth would you assume they are speaking the whole truth now? I applaud them being interviewed and answering the questions but that does not buy them any grace.

Hey Mick,

Thankfully I was never tested like you were. I am glad that there are people like you out there who are willing to stand up and not cave in to that kind of pressure; and the fact that you were willing to use your real name and be open about your views is evidence of that (I saw your post on Ethercat's "through the door" back in 2002; I admired it even back then, and I wasn't out yet).

And though lying to my family etc. isn't on the same order of magnitude, it still was compromising my integrity. I'm not happy that I did it, but I did it many times in the name of Scientology.

But when I realized what I had been doing, and apologized to my family they welcomed me "back" with open arms and have never brought up those things to me again . . . even the $30,000 debt that changed our family's' lifestyle forever -- completely forgiven. I can't tell you how much that meant to me and has helped me to get on with my life.

I guess time will tell if these guys are sincere, and what their motivations are. Does anyone know if they have apologized to the people they hurt (ie are they taking any responsibility for it or just blaming it all on DM)? That's probably an important component.

-TL

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

That is an old question. The good part of scientology is there to entrap people into the dark part, or on the contrary the dark secretive scientology is there to protect the good part?

I believe in taking just the good part and expose and throw away the rest. That would certainly be a different church.

By the way, in the Marty interview I saw an effort to protect LRH and move LRH responsibility to Miscavige, and I didn't like that. He said that LRH was fed with false reports and for that reason he allowed "disconnection" to be reinstated in 1983.

I wonder if he could explain away all the flaw and shortcomings of Scientology and LRH in a similar way. There would be a better church anyway, but keeping LRH on a pedestal will have the danger of somebody coming up with the "recovery of lost tech" and re-implementing the abusive practices in the future. That's no good.

Scientology should make known that LRH was fallible, that the tech was developed by the combined effort of many people, and some LRH polices are just plain wrong.

Scientology must evolve, must cleanup his past and openly move forward.

Just food for thought.:D

The whole transparency and honesty thingy poses one small problem which may be a little too difficult for Scientology to overcome, the problem being that Scientology has never even remotely come close to producing the imaginary state of Clear or OT which it's entire intent is based on.

[MostlyLurker]

Any effort to reform the Church of Scientology has to hinge around transparency and accountability, which would by definition require termination of confidentiality of Tech and Admin issues, such that all Scientologists knew which policies and bulletins the Church was operating on. With that done, they could make intelligent decisions about which ones to keep, and which ones to toss out (anything advocating confidentiality would be a good place to start, and I'm not talking about PC folders, I'm talking about issues which are "confidential": sekrit).


Agree :yes:



I am not sure such a reform is possible, nor am I sure that there is a figure in the FZ or in the Church around whom people would rally if corporate dissolution occurred and a Reformed Church was attempted. Had Ken Ogger been around, a lot of people might have gone for that, twelve years ago. I can think of no FZ Scientology name that has the same power, right now, and am unaware if there is a leader in the Church that people might trust, "technically".

FZers may go for Marty. But does it have to be one person only?

[MostlyLurker]

The whole transparency and honesty thingy poses one small problem which may be a little too difficult for Scientology to overcome, the problem being that Scientology has never even remotely come close to producing the imaginary state of Clear or OT which it's entire intent is based on.

Would people still buy services in the church, knowing Clears and OTs as defined by LRH do not exist? I don't know.

For sure the church must stop to lie about them. But many people do have gains with the lower Bridge, and many with the upper Bridge too. May be a matter of redefining what you may achieve and market it in a more honest way.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Would people still buy services in the church, knowing Clears and OTs as defined by LRH do not exist? I don't know.

For sure the church must stop to lie about them. But many people do have gains with the lower Bridge, and many with the upper Bridge too. May be a matter of redefining what you may achieve and market it in a more honest way.


Hi would you like to take a personality test ... oh and by the way our new version of this kinder and gentler Sceintology requires me to inform you that the vast majority of everything Hubbard ever wrote is full of shit ... but some of it may help you ... who knows you may even get lucky and not end up in worse mental shape as a result of it. Oh and one last thing, spending the rest of your life in trace removing imaginary spiritual parasites isn't as bad as it sounds once you get used to it.


So what do you say, shall we set you up to take the test?

[uniquemand]

The whole transparency and honesty thingy poses one small problem which may be a little too difficult for Scientology to overcome, the problem being that Scientology has never even remotely come close to producing the imaginary state of Clear or OT which it's entire intent is based on.

Nope, that's not a problem. Initially, there would be a lot of upset, of course, as people realize they were lied to and betrayed for most of their lives. However, having experienced real gains in session, people would still be willing to go into session, and if it were honestly presented as what it is, would probably be seen to be amazingly worthwhile, much more so without the hype about bodylessness, immortality or being totally "at cause".


FZers may go for Marty. But does it have to be one person only?

Of course there would probably be more people involved. I doubt Marty has the know-how or viewpoints necessary to completely reform the tech. I'm sure as hell that I don't. And then there's policy. And SO EDs. Etc., etc.: there would have to be a committee of people who were interested parties. Perhaps an internet group that could cannibalize every suggestion in realtime, and eventually come up with something that would be agreeable, transparent, accountable, and LEGAL.

Now, while there might be a committee that puts this all together, I think there is a need for a leader. Not because that's the healthiest thing in the world, but otherwise, where does the buck stop? People tend to follow alpha males.


Would people still buy services in the church, knowing Clears and OTs as defined by LRH do not exist? I don't know.

For sure the church must stop to lie about them. But many people do have gains with the lower Bridge, and many with the upper Bridge too. May be a matter of redefining what you may achieve and market it in a more honest way.

Bingo. The best way to do this is to find some way of getting supervision and accreditation with the APA.

I think this has been done.

[MostlyLurker]

Hi would you like to take a personality test ... oh and by the way our new version of this kinder and gentler Sceintology requires me to inform you that the vast majority of everything Hubbard ever wrote is full of shit ... but some of it may help you ... who knows you may even get lucky and not end up in worse mental shape as a result of it. Oh and one last thing, spending the rest of your life in trace removing imaginary spiritual parasites isn't as bad as it sounds once you get used to it.


So what do you say, shall we set you up to take the test?

In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.

:D

[uniquemand]

In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.

:D

I'd join that Church.

[Alanzo]

In the church I envision people will flood in to take services. They'll be cheap and fun. There will be a lot of word-of-mouth, people with a certificate will be allowed to audit anyone for free or for any fee. Hubbard may remain the founder but not the sole source. Shortcomings and insight of LRH widely known. The church hires and supervise researchers. Other sources welcome. Discoveries and procedures published broadly. No more copyrights. No war with other therapies. No enemies.

:D

Philosophers will walk the halls, debating good and evil.

NASA will open a research and development center right off of the HGC, furiously writing down notes from pcs, fresh from sessions where they went whole track and remembered the engineering of interplanetary spacecraft, skyrocketing the advancement of manned space exploration....

[uniquemand]

Philosophers will walk the halls, debating good and evil.

NASA will open a research and development center right off of the HGC, furiously writing down notes from pcs, fresh from sessions where they went whole track and remembered the engineering of interplanetary spacecraft, skyrocketing the advancement of manned space exploration....

Well, obviously you're mocking the concept, but I don't think it's ridiculous. I do think that practically it's unlikely, due to the absurd task of sorting out which policies to accept and which to throw out, etc., or god-forbid, which one's to ALTER! egad!

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Philosophers will walk the halls, debating good and evil.

NASA will open a research and development center right off of the HGC, furiously writing down notes from pcs, fresh from sessions where they went whole track and remembered the engineering of interplanetary spacecraft, skyrocketing the advancement of manned space exploration....

I guess turning Scientology into Star Trek Convention without the Spock Ears, is about the best you can expect Scientology to evolve into

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Well, obviously you're mocking the concept, but I don't think it's ridiculous. I do think that practically it's unlikely, due to the absurd task of sorting out which policies to accept and which to throw out, etc., or god-forbid, which one's to ALTER! egad!

Be realistic for a moment, if people are allowed to communicate their fantasies of being reincarnated from the same people, how long do you think it will last? Hubbard orchestrated him scam with great precision. Scientology would die a quick death if it's follows are allowed to openly communicate. Even Freezoners know better than to openly talk about their "case". Open communication and reality would totally ruin the fantasy Scientology is based on. Rather than mentally masturbating to some 1950s science fiction writers delusions and weeding though his non sense for something useful, you'd be better off buying a set of used Anthony Robbin's CDs on eBay for $50 and doing that.

[RolandRB]

Would people still buy services in the church, knowing Clears and OTs as defined by LRH do not exist? I don't know.

For sure the church must stop to lie about them. But many people do have gains with the lower Bridge, and many with the upper Bridge too. May be a matter of redefining what you may achieve and market it in a more honest way.

Oh sure, that'll work. They could try this for an honest advertisement:

"Would you like to have the realisation that you now know who you are not and am interested in finding out who you are? This could be yours for a mere $400,000 if you take your services within the Church of Scientology."

[uniquemand]

Be realistic for a moment, if people are allowed to communicate their fantasies of being reincarnated from the same people, how long do you think it will last? Hubbard orchestrated him scam with great precision. Scientology would die a quick death if it's follows are allowed to openly communicate. Even Freezoners know better than to openly talk about their "case". Open communication and reality would totally ruin the fantasy Scientology is based on. Rather than mentally masturbating to some 1950s science fiction writers delusions and weeding though his non sense for something useful, you'd be better off buying a set of used Anthony Robbin's CDs on eBay for $50 and doing that.

I'd agree that if people swapped stories from their sessions about their "cases", they'd quickly come to the determination that it was a fantasy. I don't think this would mean that they wouldn't have found it valuable. I don't argue that past-life memory is real, or that immortality is available! I do think that auditing is of real value.

I'd agree that you'd be better off finding something else, other than Scientology, because it's going to be an easier task to learn something right the first time than to try to figure out why and where Hubbard was wrong, etc.

[RolandRB]

I'd agree that if people swapped stories from their sessions about their "cases", they'd quickly come to the determination that it was a fantasy. I don't think this would mean that they wouldn't have found it valuable. I don't argue that past-life memory is real, or that immortality is available! I do think that auditing is of real value.

I'd agree that you'd be better off finding something else, other than Scientology, because it's going to be an easier task to learn something right the first time than to try to figure out why and where Hubbard was wrong, etc.

If you mix honesty in with Scientology then you get left with pure honesty and no Scientology. Look at the freezone. They know that. They need obfuscation and the lies that surround Scientology in the Church in order to survive.

[uniquemand]

If you mix honesty in with Scientology then you get left with pure honesty and no Scientology. Look at the freezone. They know that. They need obfuscation and the lies that surround Scientology in the Church in order to survive.

I am very sorry that many people operating in the Scientology FreeZone continue to cling to anachronisms like confidentiality, or running of other people's incidents on their cases as some form of weird indoctrination. You are right to doubt or mock them, so long as they are hiding behind these masks and devices which preclude analysis and understanding, and enhance cultic spiritual materialism and guru pricing for the people "in the know".

The FreeZone, to me, may be different to the way you understand it, Roland. I understand it as the collection of people practicing what they consider to be "the correct tech", based on their earlier knowledge from Scientology and whatever else they were informed by. I don't consider the Ron's Orgs only, nor is it only those groups practicing "standard tech". Some of them are flat loonies. Some are on the up-and-up. It's presently a "buyer beware" business, but ANY of them are probably better than getting involved in the Church. I'd like to see the FreeZone evolve to a fascism-free viewpoint of SERVICE to their fellow man, rather than the present FEE-FOR-SERVICE mentality that seems to rule. Make your living doing something for exchange, and don't try to make auditing your means of eking a living, else you run the danger of setting a high price on what is priceless, but useless without access.

[Outethicsofficer]

I'll be interested to see whether Marty and Mike get into squabbles about *whose* revisionist version gets the most play. So Marty is 'first out of the gate'. Mike's turn tomorrow?

Zinj

I don't care which one wins, Rinder or Rathbun, they both have dirt on their hands, they are getting their O/Ws off to all, NO SHIT! I don't care who tells or what their involvement was, I couldn't care less for the whole S.O thing. It is an abomination! I hope the thing finally chokes itself in its own shit.



I would like to put a local face to this, my recently out of the S.O source is validated now by these admissions, my very young source is "half ack'd", for here are some of the people whom had the power, one would think, to stop the madness.

For there is something to know about what has been done and what is going on, yes the actual specifics will be disputed, both by the church and by those revealing the things detailed in the releases. Each attempting to be right.


We have known, any one of us, something was wrong, god we didn't even need the specifics to know that however I am pleased they are prepared to step up and tell.

It has taken some time for my source to feel safe enough, just to say what occurred, I have seen the effects created by having too much power in the hands of people not good enough of heart to be worthy of it.

So for me and my loved one's the point scoring, the posturing etc... will mean nothing if it doesn't change what is happening.That Tommy Davis is defending the actions by saying it is all part of being an S.O member... well he can PM me, I will meet him and show him how we in ANZO deal with the likes of him! I would love to get my hands around his "ding dong donger" and shove it up his "ding dong arse":omg:

I AM NOT KIDDING!:D

OEO

[nexus100]

Philosophers will walk the halls, debating good and evil.

NASA will open a research and development center right off of the HGC, furiously writing down notes from pcs, fresh from sessions where they went whole track and remembered the engineering of interplanetary spacecraft, skyrocketing the advancement of manned space exploration....

LOL!

[Carmel]

I've been keeping up with this thread, the other threads relating to this topic, and of course all the news. Over the last couple of days, I've been feeling everything from exhilaration to the other extreme, over the whole thing. I haven't posted about it till now, because I have had so many mixed emotions and mixed feelings about it all.

I am glad and grateful about this expose. I think it should have happened, and it has. :) I think it was done effectively, and no doubt it will be effective in more ways than one - It's something which will do a job all by itself, as well as something which can be utilised for or instrumental in further effects.

However, on a personal level, I don't feel like popping a bottle of bubbly on this one. We all have our expectations, and I have mine just like anyone else. I expected more, I wanted more and/or hoped for more. In addition to that, the content of the interviews as well as the type of impingement you get when seeing people speak, has given me yet another reality shift on how it actually was/is and has made me sick to the stomach.

What one does or would maybe be expected to do, that could make up for any harm done (or 'permitted' harm), is relative to the damage. For me, the discovery or new level of reality on the abuses, through all this press/media, brought up my expectations on what needs to be done or 'should' be done to right the wrongs - What I've seen and read doesn't cut it for me, and at this time, ya wouldn't see me giving Mr Rathbun a pat on the back, not at all. I don't know him, nor do I know his agenda. Per my 'standards' though (which include a fair anount of cutting slack); which we have for ourselves as well as others (be that right or wrong); given what he has done and been party to while in the ranks; and given that he has been out for four years now.....he needs to step up. I'm disappointed and somewhat suspect to say the least - There'd be no brownie points from my quarter.

In saying that though, as I said above, I'm thankful for the media/the expose - it's a boost we've all been wanting, and it's a good one that's going to help make one hell of a difference. :thumbsup:

[Panda Termint]

And... there's always next week.
This is just the beginning, not the end;
expect a media feeding frenzy,
expect increasing legal challenges,
expect mass defections,
expect Governments to forget not to notice what's been going on right under their noses for decades and decide that they probably should consider the possibility that it might potentially be time to set up investigatory bodies to explore their options and help them decide whether or not they ought to debate and discuss a proposal that they take some kind of meaningful action... hmmm, what a buzz-kill that thought was!

[Mick Wenlock]

If you mix honesty in with Scientology then you get left with pure honesty and no Scientology. Look at the freezone. They know that. They need obfuscation and the lies that surround Scientology in the Church in order to survive.

amen to that Roland

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

amen to that Roland

Whether you're an audit junkie in the main cult or in one of the independent cults, the bottom line is you are still a junkie who hasn't been able to come to terms with your addiction to Hubbard's hypnotic fantasy world. And I've never seen a junkie who doesn't lie about his addiction. Denial becomes a way of life

[Terril park]

I am very sorry that many people operating in the Scientology FreeZone continue to cling to anachronisms like confidentiality,

With regard to upper level materials a small percentage of people
get problems after reading them, thus tech terminals would prefer not to
expose people prematurely to such materials. Those who wish to read them will find them easy to find, and for that matter maybe difficult to avoid. :)



I'd like to see the FreeZone evolve to a fascism-free viewpoint of SERVICE to their fellow man, rather than the present FEE-FOR-SERVICE mentality that seems to rule. Make your living doing something for exchange, and don't try to make auditing your means of eking a living, else you run the danger of setting a high price on what is priceless, but useless without access.

Few FZers support themselves entirely by delivering services.

However there is no reason that auditing is excempt from being done for exchange, it works for plumbers and carpenters and mechanics etc.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

With regard to upper level materials a small percentage of people
get problems after reading them, thus tech terminals would prefer not to
expose people prematurely to such materials. Those who wish to read them will find them easy to find, and for that matter maybe difficult to avoid. :)



Few FZers support themselves entirely by delivering services.

However there is no reason that auditing is excempt from being done for exchange, it works for plumbers and carpenters and mechanics etc.

Drug dealers support themselves entirely by delivering services too, that's the way it works, the more they can charge their addicts the better lifestyle they can lead. It looks like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will be the next set of dealers looking for customers to service, hopefully for them they can find some rich customers to service.

[Veda]

Drug dealers support themselves entirely by delivering services too, that's the way it works, the more they can charge their addicts the better lifestyle they can lead. It looks like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will be the next set of dealers looking for customers to service, hopefully for them they can find some rich customers to service.

It's rare to find someone, who "wants his Scientology Bridge," who hasn't been exposed to the "Church" of Scientology's manipulative influence first.

Most of us have heard, outside the C of S, Scientology "Bridge" salesmen (or promoters, or "FSMs") who, confronted by someone who "just wants a little auditing," asks, "Have you done your 'Bridge'?" If the answer is "No," or "Only some," or the like, then the sales pitch for THE "Bridge" begins. I've head it many times, and the most vulnerable people are the ones most affected. There's no law against it and shouldn't be, but it's an unwholesome (negative) "legacy" (psychological residue) of the Scientology cult that there are such vulnerable people, and they are exploited.

Just notice the awe with which "Class 8s" (and "Class 12s") are mentioned in the Freezone:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=177122&postcount=41

Consider those who are now looking to Marty Rathbun to be their new leader. What qualifies Marty I'm not sure. It may be a variation of the Stockholm Syndrome, where the tormentor suddenly become a nice guy, and the victim is so very appreciative, bonding immediately.

The next step will be for the (closet) Hubbardites in the Freezone to drop the "acceptable truth (reality)" PR stance, and boldly praise their savior and hero L. Ron. It's already happening.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=54605&postcount=2

The OT levels:

http://www.anti-scientologie.ch/pdf/scientology-ot-levels.pdf

[Challenge]

Yes this is off the wall. Was the fact that Marty and Mike talk to the St Pete Times about DM beating people, part of their cover to gain street cred with the FZ?

I find it interesting that so far Marty hasn't said anything ( at least in print, I haven't watched any videos) that we didn't already know. Perhaps in Part 3 of his story he will tell us something that hasn't already been revealed ARS, OCBM, or the EXSO boards. Perhaps not.
Do you recall the stories of the infiltration attempts by COS into the several public groups that they deemed to be enemies? Look up CADA. They sent a few upper level people in first.
They brought others. Soon there were more than 100 of them. Each and every one of them claimed to be "out" of COS. They then ran their leaders for CADA officers. They tried to vote themselves in. We busted them at CADA, but the very same infiltration program, written by David Gaiman, was successful to infiltrate and wipe out CAN, and was tried with and without success on other groups.
Considering marty Mark Rathbun's previous history, I see no reason not to keep a watchful eye on him.
If I choose to write a silly, crazy, off-the-wall post about it that doesn't mean that the overall idea has no validity. I thought it to be facetious. What others thnk of it is what others think of it.

Chlng

[Zinjifar]

It's not that crazy an idea, but, it's a little too long term to seem an op. Marty's been out for quite a while without much activity. Yes, he's been very cagey about 'confessing' only what is already known, with maybe the bonus tidbit about the 'destruction of evidence' that he thinks he won't get in trouble for.

But, back to the crazy idea; it's something the 'Church' has been doing for a decade now; trying to *become* all the players in the game as in 'pan determined'. So, they pretend to be Zonies; they pretend to be 'moderate' critics. All in a pan-determined effort to be all the players in the game and thus control everything.

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

They are still scientologists. An ex-scientologist forum, even if filled with nice good people like us, may not suit their interest.

In a way they are taking responsibility for their church, and that is good. Would Scientology drop all the abusive behavior should Miscavige be overthrown? I can't but hope so.


Either Rathbun and Rinder went to the press and disclosed some extremely unsavory and damaging details about CofS upper management or they didn't.

They did.

It's either a good idea that they did so or it isn't.

It is.

It either is helpful to blowing the whistle on and taking down the cult or it's not.

It is.

So there you go.

[Voltaire's Child]

Whether you're an audit junkie in the main cult or in one of the independent cults, the bottom line is you are still a junkie who hasn't been able to come to terms with your addiction to Hubbard's hypnotic fantasy world. And I've never seen a junkie who doesn't lie about his addiction. Denial becomes a way of life


No, Chuck. Just because you think people are addicted to such things doesn't mean they are. And how handy that you can accuse people you don't even know of lying when you don't even know what their state of mind is but can just invent something and attribute it to them.

I've met a very few people who might fit the bill as "junkies" or addicts (of auditing) out of all the Scn'ists I've met.

[Voltaire's Child]

Be realistic for a moment, if people are allowed to communicate their fantasies of being reincarnated from the same people, how long do you think it will last? Hubbard orchestrated him scam with great precision. Scientology would die a quick death if it's follows are allowed to openly communicate. Even Freezoners know better than to openly talk about their "case". Open communication and reality would totally ruin the fantasy Scientology is based on. Rather than mentally masturbating to some 1950s science fiction writers delusions and weeding though his non sense for something useful, you'd be better off buying a set of used Anthony Robbin's CDs on eBay for $50 and doing that.


Freedom of speech, baby. All kinds of people in this wonderful world are "allowed to communicate their fantasies" of...heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. Someone else can't "allow" it. It's just not up to you.

[Voltaire's Child]

I find it interesting that so far Marty hasn't said anything ( at least in print, I haven't watched any videos) that we didn't already know. Perhaps in Part 3 of his story he will tell us something that hasn't already been revealed ARS, OCBM, or the EXSO boards. Perhaps not.
Do you recall the stories of the infiltration attempts by COS into the several public groups that they deemed to be enemies? Look up CADA. They sent a few upper level people in first.
They brought others. Soon there were more than 100 of them. Each and every one of them claimed to be "out" of COS. They then ran their leaders for CADA officers. They tried to vote themselves in. We busted them at CADA, but the very same infiltration program, written by David Gaiman, was successful to infiltrate and wipe out CAN, and was tried with and without success on other groups.
Considering marty Mark Rathbun's previous history, I see no reason not to keep a watchful eye on him.
If I choose to write a silly, crazy, off-the-wall post about it that doesn't mean that the overall idea has no validity. I thought it to be facetious. What others thnk of it is what others think of it.

Chlng


It's interesting to see you write somewhat negatively about the Freezone considering you've posted that you are an independent Scientologist and that you take paying pcs. Present tense.

[HolyCow]

Whatever someone wants to buy into, both figuratively and financially, is their biz. The problem is there's no independent analysis and statistics.

If 1,000 people brought their car in for repairs at ABC Car Repair shop for the Car Repair Rundown, and 1,000 of those cars broke back down after a month or two, then customers should have access to that information. Period.

In Scn, year after year, decade after decade, what happens is the Rundown (OT levels) is either a) redone or b) renamed.
c) Later, if you keep going back to this, you'll be told it's your car's fault, and it has to be completely rehauled. D) eventually it's all your fault.

After 60 years, some have realized not to go back to the ABC Car Repair shop. It is Not any more complicated than that.:coolwink:

[MichelleAsWell]

I find it interesting that so far Marty hasn't said anything ( at least in print, I haven't watched any videos) that we didn't already know.
Chlng

Hey Challenge,

I know it seems disheartening that he hasn't revealed more, but the one thing I have discovered in talking to people about the CoS, is that most have NO CLUE about the things that have been re-re-reposted on the internet by now.

So the things coming out in the series are NEWS to most people, and this is GOOD. I'm not saying there aren't a lot worse stories to be told, but he's actually confirming things that have been dismissed as "internet lies" by the CoS forever...

It's pulling a string, right? If some things are true, then what else is?

M

[Terril park]

So, they pretend to be Zonies; they pretend to be 'moderate' critics. All in a pan-determined effort to be all the players in the game and thus control everything.

Zinj

Pretend to be zonies?

I probably know more Freezoners than anyone, and I can't recall ever
having contact with a churchie pretending to be a zonie. Well, Becca was
a critic , Zonie and SO member simultaneously, :) but none was pretense.

No Churchie has ever tried to get services in the FZ.

No doubt there have been many "critics" who seeing someone espouse the tech accuse them of being a churchie. There have been best as I recall
at max three people who looked at the FZ then went back to COS. In 9 years or so.

[Zinjifar]

Pretend to be zonies?

I probably know more Freezoners than anyone, and I can't recall ever
having contact with a churchie pretending to be a zonie. Well, Becca was
a critic , Zonie and SO member simultaneously, :) but none was pretense.

No Churchie has ever tried to get services in the FZ.

No doubt there have been many "critics" who seeing someone espouse the tech accuse them of being a churchie. There have been best as I recall
at max three people who looked at the FZ then went back to COS. In 9 years or so.

I'm more specifically speaking of the 'Church's' online shenanigans, but, I have no doubt that the 'Church' does frequent services with Zonie/Indie groups. After all, it worked with Mayo.

Whether you'd notice or not really doesn't matter, although I would hope there was enough skepticism that the obligatory third party efforts fizzle.

Zinj

[CornPie]

...No Churchie has ever tried to get services in the FZ...

...There have been best as I recall at max three people who looked at the FZ then went back to COS. In 9 years or so.
Now, there you go again. With two more ludicrous statements. And your second statement has near certain numbers. Was that world-wide, or just London? Do you actually think everyone trusts you with their information?

How many invisible scientology/fz OT3 Body Thetans (BT's) got zapped over those 9 years, can you tell us that?

[Blue Spirit]

Hi Mick,

I just wanted to validate your integrity for standing up in the S.O.
to do the right thing.
It is VERY Admirable.

WELL DONE !
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Zinjifar]

Hi Mick,

I just wanted to validate your integrity for standing up in the S.O.
to do the right thing.
It is VERY Admirable.

WELL DONE !
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

They had to declare him twice to make it stick :)

Zinj

[Terril park]

I'm more specifically speaking of the 'Church's' online shenanigans,

OK. They have and maybe still lurk on FZ forums [ though I doubt they have the resources now], but never posted. The shenanigans on ARS
I'm not expert in. Too much noise to go through for me.



but, I have no doubt that the 'Church' does frequent services with Zonie/Indie groups. After all, it worked with Mayo.

Whether you'd notice or not really doesn't matter, although I would hope there was enough skepticism that the obligatory third party efforts fizzle.

Zinj

Churchies have not, nor for 9 years, done services in the FZ. I'd know. I was told that if they did they'd be in trouble and there is some policy or order against it.

Such activity has never been reported in the FZ.

Did any churchie do service with Mayo? Its before my time on the net,
but I know many who were involved. Not heard of a churchie doing service with Mayo. It may be possible that such an example resulted in the policy I
mentioned.

The COS attacks on Mayo are well documented in other areas.

[Zinjifar]

I said 'Church', not 'churchies', although, pretty much by definitions the pseudopods of the 'Church' are 'churchies'

Zinj

[Dulloldfart]

I'm more specifically speaking of the 'Church's' online shenanigans, but, I have no doubt that the 'Church' does frequent services with Zonie/Indie groups.

One thing is the difficulty of taking CofS services after taking FZ services. Even if it had been approved by some CofS senior at the time, someone can always say, "Well, it's off-policy and you're banned from taking Advanced Courses forever until 'The Freezone' is disbanded, since it is a suppressive group." For people who fervently believe their eternal salvation depends on taking those Advanced Courses someday, even next lifetime, it is a big deal, despite all the laughable outpoints in the situation.

Paul

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

No, Chuck. Just because you think people are addicted to such things doesn't mean they are. And how handy that you can accuse people you don't even know of lying when you don't even know what their state of mind is but can just invent something and attribute it to them.

I've met a very few people who might fit the bill as "junkies" or addicts (of auditing) out of all the Scn'ists I've met.

This is one of those few times where something is truly black and white. There is no ambiguity in this statement ... Anyone who claims they reached the state of OT or Clear as defined by Hubbard and which Hubbard claims is obtainable through Scientology is a liar. Scientology has never produced a single Clear or OT as defined by Hubbard, it is all part of his con.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Freedom of speech, baby. All kinds of people in this wonderful world are "allowed to communicate their fantasies" of...heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. Someone else can't "allow" it. It's just not up to you.

Who is talking about limiting anyone's freedom of speech on stopping them from communicating about their delusional fantasies? I'm saying just the opposite.

If people practicing Hubbard's Scientology were allowed to communicate openly about their case, the entire house of cards would collapse.

I wish people would openly talk about it more, but it would be self destructive to Hubbard's con game.

[Terril park]

Who is talking about limiting anyone's freedom of speech on stopping them from communicating about their delusional fantasies? I'm saying just the opposite.

If people practicing Hubbard's Scientology were allowed to communicate openly about their case, the entire house of cards would collapse.

I wish people would openly talk about it more, but it would be self destructive to Hubbard's con game.

Well for near on a decade I've posted FZ success stories

WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO POST.

So bring on whatever nonsense to bring on you have in mind.

[Voltaire's Child]

Who is talking about limiting anyone's freedom of speech on stopping them from communicating about their delusional fantasies? I'm saying just the opposite.

If people practicing Hubbard's Scientology were allowed to communicate openly about their case, the entire house of cards would collapse.

I wish people would openly talk about it more, but it would be self destructive to Hubbard's con game.

Freezoners and indies do talk about it openly. And it hasn't hurt their situation at all.

[Voltaire's Child]

This is one of those few times where something is truly black and white. There is no ambiguity in this statement ... Anyone who claims they reached the state of OT or Clear as defined by Hubbard and which Hubbard claims is obtainable through Scientology is a liar. Scientology has never produced a single Clear or OT as defined by Hubbard, it is all part of his con.


Your comment has nothing to do with the text (of mine) which you quoted.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Well for near on a decade I've posted FZ success stories

WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO POST.

So bring on whatever nonsense to bring on you have in mind.

Well okay if it's so open then tell me ... How many past lives have you had, what famous people in history were you in those past life, and which other famous people in history did you meet?

[Challenge]

Hey Challenge,

I know it seems disheartening that he hasn't revealed more, but the one thing I have discovered in talking to people about the CoS, is that most have NO CLUE about the things that have been re-re-reposted on the internet by now.

So the things coming out in the series are NEWS to most people, and this is GOOD. I'm not saying there aren't a lot worse stories to be told, but he's actually confirming things that have been dismissed as "internet lies" by the CoS forever...

It's pulling a string, right? If some things are true, then what else is?

M

That's true. It is a positive thing for sure that there is corroboration coming from M&M.
I reckon it's my "earlier similars". Whenever I see, or hear of, a high level RTC person coming into a group and bringing a lot of people with him, I get suspicious.

Chlng

[Voltaire's Child]

Well okay if it's so open then tell me ... How many past lives have you had, what famous people in history were you in those past life, and which other famous people in history did you meet?

Discussing elements of Scn theology openly isn't the same as discussing one's personal life.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Discussing elements of Scn theology openly isn't the same as discussing one's personal life.

Well that's pretty much what I thought, but I figured I'd at least throw out the opportunity for a little "open discussion",

Discussing the marketing flimflam is perfectly okay, but getting into the reality of the outcome is still off limits ... unless it helps sell the product, then it's encouraged.

Also the relationship I have with my Body Tethans is too personal in nature to discuss, and discussing my walk with Xenu and the Marcabians is certainly frowned upon also... but I can tell you how the OT powers Ron's Tech endowed me with, helped me find my misplaced car key and a parking space Downtown this morning.

[Voltaire's Child]

Well that's pretty much what I thought, but I figured I'd at least throw out the opportunity for a little "open discussion",

Discussing the marketing flimflam is perfectly okay, but getting into the reality of the outcome is still off limits ... unless it helps sell the product, then it's encouraged.

Also the relationship I have with my Body Tethans is too personal in nature to discuss, and discussing my walk with Xenu and the Marcabians is certainly frowned upon also... but I can tell you how the OT powers Ron's Tech endowed me with, helped me find my misplaced car key and a parking space Downtown this morning.

Actually, you know, I would and have discussed many things that in Scn would be considered "case" and "past track" but when someone's rude and confrontational about it, I don't think they can expect that the other person's going to open up. I would guess it would be the same for Terril and others. Nobody likes being snotted off to (she said ungrammatically) while being asked for something.

I usually have no problem with your posts - I generally like you just fine but on this I'm inclined to let you know that when you're challenging, unkind, use inflammatory terms and then expect the other person to just tell all, that you've got another think coming. Not being sarcastic, but I will elucidate by saying that if this does not make sense to you, imagine if it was another venue and subject. Say you're at a cocktail party or quilting bee, someone finds out another person used to go to boarding school, say, hypothetically, and they ask a series of questions in a hectoring and mocking manner about kids all buggering each other and did the guy they're talking to ever have to do that? They wouldn't get an answer.

I ran into something like that on a.r.s. and OCMB. Some people were just screaming for certain information about me that I didn't want to give. People were sententiously whining about the wall I built around myself and why won't I tell when, in fact, I'd disclosed a LOT about my bio (and unlike many of them I am not an anon ) but the whining went on and on. Point is, in polite society, when you ask private details of another person's life, they have the right to say yea or nay to the request. And if you are mocking and mean about it, the correct response is to tell you to eff off and maybe put you on ignore.

[Zinjifar]

One thing is the difficulty of taking CofS services after taking FZ services. Even if it had been approved by some CofS senior at the time, someone can always say, "Well, it's off-policy and you're banned from taking Advanced Courses forever until 'The Freezone' is disbanded, since it is a suppressive group." For people who fervently believe their eternal salvation depends on taking those Advanced Courses someday, even next lifetime, it is a big deal, despite all the laughable outpoints in the situation.

Paul

None of this applies to people sent *by the 'Church'* to 'take services' in the Freezone.

Although, admittedly, the 'Church' even tends to distrust its own agents, especially those who have been exposed to 'squirreling' and 'entheta' and I would not expect them to be treated any better than they treat anyone they control.

Zinj

[Panda Termint]

None of this applies to people sent *by the 'Church'* to 'take services' in the Freezone.

Although, admittedly, the 'Church' even tends to distrust its own agents, especially those who have been exposed to 'squirreling' and 'entheta' and I would not expect them to be treated any better than they treat anyone they control.

Zinj
Actually Zinj, there are several cases of exactly that occurring, particularly early in the piece.

One poor dude spent 3 years in the "wilderness" taking FZ training etc.

He finally comes home to do a full debrief only to find that his "cover" was so good that he couldn't get in the door. All the Execs hated his guts and he was a Pariah.

Unfortunately for him, his Project Orders had been shredded during a panic over a threatened raid and there was no hard evidence that he was actually doing the FZ at CofS behest. We did have some copies of reports he'd sent in whilst doing the op but they just looked like "what I did in the FZ this week" reports.

I was part of the handling team that sec'checked the life out of him (sorry about that, John) and eventually got him back in from the cold.

He was never fully trusted after that and the mud never washed off. He hasn't moved a jot on the Processing Bridge since but has done Auditor and Staff training.

I once jokingly suggested to him that he might have been better off staying where he was. Nowadays I think he definitely would have been.

[Zinjifar]

Stalin had a similar system. But, in fact, almost nobody trusts spais, especially *good* ones :)

Zinj

[Panda Termint]

True!

[olska]

Whether you're an audit junkie in the main cult or in one of the independent cults, the bottom line is you are still a junkie who hasn't been able to come to terms with your addiction to Hubbard's hypnotic fantasy world. And I've never seen a junkie who doesn't lie about his addiction. Denial becomes a way of life

You are absolutely right.

There are stark parallels in the lives and behavior of addicts (drug addicts, sex addicts, thrill addicts, etc) and "dedicated" scientologists, obvious to anyone who has studied the phenomena associated with addiction, or had much interaction with addicts.

One of the first things to get past when dealing with the phenomena of addiction is the idea that people who are "high functioning" (successful in their career, have money, look clean, likeable, etc.) couldn't possible be "addicts." For most people, high-functioning addicts are difficult to spot because they are just so "right" and so "able." Thus camouflaged, they can wreak devastation on the people around them, leaving those in their wake feeling off balance, emotionally beat up, and wondering what the hell happened and what they did to "pull that in."

While you will find people near such an addict apologizing for possibly offending or upsetting them (I know you didn't mean to hit me honey, and I'm sorry I provoked you...), you'll seldom find the high-functioning addict apologizing to anyone -- more likely you'll find them justifying their every act and statement and explaining how they were right all along and YOU were wrong.

When it comes right down to it, like all active addicts who do not desire change, they will choose their "drug of choice" over everything else -- family, friends the law, ethics and morality, whatever.

This at least in part explains the phenomenon of "disconnection" in scientology -- people sacrificing the welfare of their children or parents in order to pursue their scientology addiction -- as well as the amazing amounts of money and energy that people are willing to pour into scientology, and the quasi-criminal activities they will engage in to get that money.

But I think addiction to scientology is more complex than addiction to "auditing" because I know people who have been involved in scientology most of their lives and exhibit all the attributes associated with addiction, yet who haven't had an auditing session for years and years! because they can't afford it, because they're "PTS," or in some kind of "ethics" handling, or whatever.

So I think addiction to scientology MAY INCLUDE addiction to the euphoria experienced in auditing sessions, but ALSO includes addiction to power, to being part of an elite group of superior beings, to approval from that group, to one's idea of oneself as a nonconformist, to one's idea of one's superior intellect or creativity or whatever flavor of prowess you care to name, to the sense of "danger" associated with being a scientologist, to the "speed rush" of the urgency associated with scientology, and so forth and so on.

In scientology, humility in any form is discouraged. Ego is encouraged and celebrated. Scientology strengthens all these flavors of "emotional addiction" by making those who exhibit them RIGHT.

None of this would matter (for example, who really cares if someone is addicted to running and the release of body chemicals which comes with obsessive engagement in that activity?) except for the effects of addiction on those associated with the addict.

Not only the close family (siblings, parents, children) but others with whom the addict has only limited contact may be negatively affected. Stories of various kinds of insensitivity and outright abuse perpetrated by "dedicated scientologists" on those near them abound; less noted (and of course less harmful but still examples of what I'm describing) are the insensitive remarks, disdainful attitudes, and cheery attempts to "handle" those devastated by scientology with yet more scientology that you find even in this environment.

Alcoholism is widely recognized as a social problem because of the destructive effects of alcoholism: people killed by drunk drivers and drunks with guns, families devastated by the self-centered behavior of alcoholics, and the destructive physical effects of years of drinking on the drinker.

With the outpouring of reports and personal stories on the internet, a similar range of social problems brought on by "scientology" are now coming to light.

There is a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous (which helps people deals with their addiction to alcohol and other substances and the emotional issues underlying that addiction) that "every addict who goes down takes seven others with him/her."

I believe this is true of scientology, as well.

In a setting equivalent to AA meetings for those engaged in and/or affected by alcoholism, I believe ESMB serves as a "recovery meeting" for those who were engaged in and/or affected by "scientology" -- and I'm really, really glad to be here and see it evolve to what it has become.

[olska]

Be realistic for a moment, if people are allowed to communicate their fantasies of being reincarnated from the same people, how long do you think it will last? Hubbard orchestrated him scam with great precision. Scientology would die a quick death if it's follows are allowed to openly communicate. Even Freezoners know better than to openly talk about their "case". Open communication and reality would totally ruin the fantasy Scientology is based on. Rather than mentally masturbating to some 1950s science fiction writers delusions and weeding though his non sense for something useful, you'd be better off buying a set of used Anthony Robbin's CDs on eBay for $50 and doing that.

Right on, again. Scientology is, imo, carefully designed (probably evolved over time, as situations came up -- not all at once in the beginning) to be a self-protective system.

It's likely that in the early days of auditing, people did discuss their cases and phenomena that came up in session, and thus shared information that caused them to question the validity of what came up, and/or the processes that brought it up. (Imagine two or three Mozart's arguing over who really wrote that music...). Some of those people got disgusted with the subject and left; then discussing one's case out of session became a big no-no so it wouldn't happen again.

The "no case on post" rule helps prevent people on the inside from openly discussing problems they may have with getting their work done, dealing with other workers within the system, being overworked, etc.

The "Potential Trouble Sources A to J" must have come up after experience with certain types showed that scientology (as an enterprise) was vulnerable to these "types of trouble." So the A to J types were defined and moved to the side, prohibited, leaving ONLY those who were gullible and vulnerable as "prospects" for sales and marketing. And demonizing the PTS types strengthened this wall against attack.

Same with "illegal PCs" -- after some failed attempts to "handle" people who had been touched by the tainted and evil field of psychiatry, the simple solution was simply to prohibit them from doing services. Problem solved.

Demonizing the "SPs" and prohibiting communication with any former members now declared or disaffected put up huge walls to insulate the scientology community against outside influences, against "other determinism" and "other fish to fry," and so forth.

What you have in the end is scientology as it is now -- a very closed society where people believe what comes up auditing because there is nothing to compare it with (not only no comrades' case material, but no material from "other practices"), where the members are well insulated against any outside influences that might burst the bubble, where the "rightness" of scientology is constantly reinforced and the expression of any doubt about it is "wrong" and quickly punished or dead-agented.

Still some break free or fall out of the system, and too bad for both Hubbard and DM -- they didn't predict how the internet would facilitate communications and thus make it possible to break all those rules against communicating.

[Terril park]

Actually Zinj, there are several cases of exactly that occurring, particularly early in the piece.

One poor dude spent 3 years in the "wilderness" taking FZ training etc.

He finally comes home to do a full debrief only to find that his "cover" was so good that he couldn't get in the door. All the Execs hated his guts and he was a Pariah.

Unfortunately for him, his Project Orders had been shredded during a panic over a threatened raid and there was no hard evidence that he was actually doing the FZ at CofS behest. We did have some copies of reports he'd sent in whilst doing the op but they just looked like "what I did in the FZ this week" reports.

I was part of the handling team that sec'checked the life out of him (sorry about that, John) and eventually got him back in from the cold.

He was never fully trusted after that and the mud never washed off. He hasn't moved a jot on the Processing Bridge since but has done Auditor and Staff training.

I once jokingly suggested to him that he might have been better off staying where he was. Nowadays I think he definitely would have been.

I'd be interested in details of that if its OK to say. Or at least when. This
is probably with Mayo?

I've heard that there is a policy that anyone who gets auditing in the FZ even if as an OSA op is barred from services in COS.

In the last 10 years in the english speaking FZ I've never heard of an OSA op trying to go to an FZ auditor. There was one attempt to infiltrate in Moscow:-

http://www.freezonesurvivors.to/vladimirlukard.html

This was probably connected with the making of " The Beginners Guide to L ron Hubbard" that OSA really tried hard to stop.

[Zinjifar]

In the last 10 years in the english speaking FZ I've never heard of an OSA op trying to go to an FZ auditor.

Practically by definition an 'op' would be something you wouldn't know about.

Zinj

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip> In the last 10 years in the english speaking FZ I've never heard of an OSA op trying to go to an FZ auditor. There was one attempt to infiltrate in Moscow:- <snip>Are you privy to information about OSA OP's Terril? - I find that strangely interesting.. I wasn't even aware of such things when I did work in the confounded GO.. Only the B1 guys would know...

Huh?

:confused2:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Actually, you know, I would and have discussed many things that in Scn would be considered "case" and "past track" but when someone's rude and confrontational about it, I don't think they can expect that the other person's going to open up. I would guess it would be the same for Terril and others. Nobody likes being snotted off to (she said ungrammatically) while being asked for something.

I usually have no problem with your posts - I generally like you just fine but on this I'm inclined to let you know that when you're challenging, unkind, use inflammatory terms and then expect the other person to just tell all, that you've got another think coming. Not being sarcastic, but I will elucidate by saying that if this does not make sense to you, imagine if it was another venue and subject. Say you're at a cocktail party or quilting bee, someone finds out another person used to go to boarding school, say, hypothetically, and they ask a series of questions in a hectoring and mocking manner about kids all buggering each other and did the guy they're talking to ever have to do that? They wouldn't get an answer.

I ran into something like that on a.r.s. and OCMB. Some people were just screaming for certain information about me that I didn't want to give. People were sententiously whining about the wall I built around myself and why won't I tell when, in fact, I'd disclosed a LOT about my bio (and unlike many of them I am not an anon ) but the whining went on and on. Point is, in polite society, when you ask private details of another person's life, they have the right to say yea or nay to the request. And if you are mocking and mean about it, the correct response is to tell you to eff off and maybe put you on ignore.

To be completely honest I'm not even interested in yours or anyone else's past lives, I just know talking about them is not good for marketing. This thread has completely gotten off track, but since we are here; the point I'm making is whether you are in the freezone or the cult itself, if you follow Hubbard's so called "Tech" the end result will be the same. You will get to a point in the upper levels where you spend the rest of your life removing Hubbard's imaginary spiritual parasites known as Body Thetans, and trying to convince yourself that it is helping you become some form of higher being known as "OT" which does not exist and never did exist, then you will be encouraged if not forced to write up these gains in order to help market the scam. And if for some reason this process makes you worse, you will not be allowed to communicate this under any circumstances or you will be cut off. Now granted some people may not know or believe it's a scam and actually believe that the state of Clear and OT is anything but imaginary, regardless of their intentions if they are not upfront with where Hubbard's Tech will take the person they are indoctrinating right from the beginning, they are advancing the scam. Until the upper levels are explain to a person in detail right from the very beginning, it is nothing but a totalitarian mind control cult that worships Hubbard and his creation exactly as Hubbard intended it to be.

[Terril park]

Practically by definition an 'op' would be something you wouldn't know about.

Zinj

Well almost all FZ tech terminals are my friends, and re Russia I know the top C/Ses.

There has been no examples of auditors having OSA people as clients.
They ask certain questions on the meter, Lol! even I was by a good friend.

You think the meters nonsense, well none have had any problems with the church re people they've audited.

Nothing bad has happened. Occams razor. No such ops.

[Terril park]

Are you privy to information about OSA OP's Terril? - I find that strangely interesting.. I wasn't even aware of such things when I did work in the confounded GO.. Only the B1 guys would know...

Huh?

:confused2:

I'm privy to almost everything that happens in the FZ. The OSA ops I know about are relatively public info, sometimes posted by me. For example
Dominic O'Brian, the mentor in " The beginners guide to LRH" was visited multiple times by OSA to try and stop the program and recieved threats of severe legal action if he didn't co-operate.

The program, which was in a series , had its title changed from the "Beginners guide to Scientology", aligning with the other programs in the series, because of COS legal threats re trademarked n ames or similar nonsense.

There apparently was an attempt to break in to the production company to, I might assume, steal the disc of the programme in order to bring lawsuits to prevent the release.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Allright.. I guess that an undercover OSA spy can't be on a meter. They tend to believe that the meter can't be fooled, so that makes their needle make a little shaking fist at the auditor.

However.. I found out, on the internet and a decade after the fact, that my OT5 freind had been on a 'mission' into squirrel groups in Belgium (I think). To plant faked tech materials. Apparently he succeded.. Allthough he was found out years later.

(That's all I know.. From a few posts on ARS, by googling his name. Which I won't reveal just yet...:coolwink: I have reason for being obscure..)

:yes:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Allright.. I guess that an undercover OSA spy can't be on a meter. They tend to believe that the meter can't be fooled, so that makes their needle make a little shaking fist at the auditor.

However.. I found out, on the internet and a decade after the fact, that my OT5 freind had been on a 'mission' into squirrel groups in Belgium (I think). To plant faked tech materials. Apparently he succeded.. Allthough he was found out years later.

(That's all I know.. From a few posts on ARS, by googling his name. Which I won't reveal just yet...:coolwink: I have reason for being obscure..)

:yes:

What was the point of planting fake tech materials? It's not any of it works regardless of the source. Was it planted to convince active members who were exposed to the official material not to leave, because the material on the outside was different?

[Zinjifar]

There could never be a spai, saboteur, 4th column bla bla in any kind of Scientology Group, because Scientologists *know how to know!*

:)

Zinj

[SchwimmelPuckel]

What was the point of planting fake tech materials? It's not any of it works regardless of the source. Was it planted to convince active members who were exposed to the official material not to leave, because the material on the outside was different?Yeh.. It's rather pointless innit? - But the sad and heartbreaking thing is: Scilons really believe their tech is valid and works. So the purpose of fake tech was to sabotage the squirrels results.

hmm... heh..hehehehe... hehehehhehehehhehehhe.. HAAHAHAHAHAAAA!

:roflmao:

[Voltaire's Child]

You are absolutely right.

There are stark parallels in the lives and behavior of addicts (drug addicts, sex addicts, thrill addicts, etc) and "dedicated" scientologists, obvious to anyone who has studied the phenomena associated with addiction, or had much interaction with addicts.

One of the first things to get past when dealing with the phenomena of addiction is the idea that people who are "high functioning" (successful in their career, have money, look clean, likeable, etc.) couldn't possible be "addicts." For most people, high-functioning addicts are difficult to spot because they are just so "right" and so "able." Thus camouflaged, they can wreak devastation on the people around them, leaving those in their wake feeling off balance, emotionally beat up, and wondering what the hell happened and what they did to "pull that in."

While you will find people near such an addict apologizing for possibly offending or upsetting them (I know you didn't mean to hit me honey, and I'm sorry I provoked you...), you'll seldom find the high-functioning addict apologizing to anyone -- more likely you'll find them justifying their every act and statement and explaining how they were right all along and YOU were wrong.

When it comes right down to it, like all active addicts who do not desire change, they will choose their "drug of choice" over everything else -- family, friends the law, ethics and morality, whatever.

This at least in part explains the phenomenon of "disconnection" in scientology -- people sacrificing the welfare of their children or parents in order to pursue their scientology addiction -- as well as the amazing amounts of money and energy that people are willing to pour into scientology, and the quasi-criminal activities they will engage in to get that money.

But I think addiction to scientology is more complex than addiction to "auditing" because I know people who have been involved in scientology most of their lives and exhibit all the attributes associated with addiction, yet who haven't had an auditing session for years and years! because they can't afford it, because they're "PTS," or in some kind of "ethics" handling, or whatever.

So I think addiction to scientology MAY INCLUDE addiction to the euphoria experienced in auditing sessions, but ALSO includes addiction to power, to being part of an elite group of superior beings, to approval from that group, to one's idea of oneself as a nonconformist, to one's idea of one's superior intellect or creativity or whatever flavor of prowess you care to name, to the sense of "danger" associated with being a scientologist, to the "speed rush" of the urgency associated with scientology, and so forth and so on.

In scientology, humility in any form is discouraged. Ego is encouraged and celebrated. Scientology strengthens all these flavors of "emotional addiction" by making those who exhibit them RIGHT.

None of this would matter (for example, who really cares if someone is addicted to running and the release of body chemicals which comes with obsessive engagement in that activity?) except for the effects of addiction on those associated with the addict.

Not only the close family (siblings, parents, children) but others with whom the addict has only limited contact may be negatively affected. Stories of various kinds of insensitivity and outright abuse perpetrated by "dedicated scientologists" on those near them abound; less noted (and of course less harmful but still examples of what I'm describing) are the insensitive remarks, disdainful attitudes, and cheery attempts to "handle" those devastated by scientology with yet more scientology that you find even in this environment.

Alcoholism is widely recognized as a social problem because of the destructive effects of alcoholism: people killed by drunk drivers and drunks with guns, families devastated by the self-centered behavior of alcoholics, and the destructive physical effects of years of drinking on the drinker.

With the outpouring of reports and personal stories on the internet, a similar range of social problems brought on by "scientology" are now coming to light.

There is a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous (which helps people deals with their addiction to alcohol and other substances and the emotional issues underlying that addiction) that "every addict who goes down takes seven others with him/her."

I believe this is true of scientology, as well.

In a setting equivalent to AA meetings for those engaged in and/or affected by alcoholism, I believe ESMB serves as a "recovery meeting" for those who were engaged in and/or affected by "scientology" -- and I'm really, really glad to be here and see it evolve to what it has become.


May as well say that about anyone who's devout and highly interested in a theological and/or religious path of any sort.

Some people are addicted to slamming others for their ideological choices.

Just sayin'.

[Voltaire's Child]

Well almost all FZ tech terminals are my friends, and re Russia I know the top C/Ses.

There has been no examples of auditors having OSA people as clients.
They ask certain questions on the meter, Lol! even I was by a good friend.

You think the meters nonsense, well none have had any problems with the church re people they've audited.

Nothing bad has happened. Occams razor. No such ops.


Right. Because if there were, then, by now, those people would have betrayed you and this would be known.

[Panda Termint]

I'd be interested in details of that if its OK to say. Or at least when. This
is probably with Mayo?

I've heard that there is a policy that anyone who gets auditing in the FZ even if as an OSA op is barred from services in COS.

In the last 10 years in the english speaking FZ I've never heard of an OSA op trying to go to an FZ auditor. There was one attempt to infiltrate in Moscow:-

http://www.freezonesurvivors.to/vladimirlukard.html

This was probably connected with the making of " The Beginners Guide to L ron Hubbard" that OSA really tried hard to stop.
I'm reluctant to give the specifics having no desire to re-visit those dark days and only wish the best for my old friends caught up in it.

Most of what I know about this operation came up in auditing and pre-session Briefing and, hence, I won't discuss that (even if it was INAY Sec Checking).

Of course, it was discussed amongst Tech terminals at the time but I've managed to rehabilitate my conscience since then.

I'll PM you with the general data, it might answer some questions for the FZers concerned.

Cheers, Panda.

[olska]

May as well say that about anyone who's devout and highly interested in a theological and/or religious path of any sort.

May as well say what?


Some people are addicted to slamming others for their ideological choices.

Really? Do you have examples? Care to share how you came to that conclusion?

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

To be completely honest I'm not even interested in yours or anyone else's past lives, I just know talking about them is not good for marketing. This thread has completely gotten off track, but since we are here; the point I'm making is whether you are in the freezone or the cult itself, if you follow Hubbard's so called "Tech" the end result will be the same. You will get to a point in the upper levels where you spend the rest of your life removing Hubbard's imaginary spiritual parasites known as Body Thetans, and trying to convince yourself that it is helping you become some form of higher being known as "OT" which does not exist and never did exist, then you will be encouraged if not forced to write up these gains in order to help market the scam. And if for some reason this process makes you worse, you will not be allowed to communicate this under any circumstances or you will be cut off. Now granted some people may not know or believe it's a scam and actually believe that the state of Clear and OT is anything but imaginary, regardless of their intentions if they are not upfront with where Hubbard's Tech will take the person they are indoctrinating right from the beginning, they are advancing the scam. Until the upper levels are explain to a person in detail right from the very beginning, it is nothing but a totalitarian mind control cult that worships Hubbard and his creation exactly as Hubbard intended it to be.

I think this sums the whole thing up nicely.:thumbsup:

The Anabaptist Jacques

[CornPie]

Well almost all FZ tech terminals are my friends and re Russia I know the top C/Ses.

There has been no examples of auditors having OSA people as clients.
They ask certain questions on the meter, Lol! even I was by a good friend.

You think the meters nonsense, well none have had any problems with the church re people they've audited.

Nothing bad has happened. Occams razor. No such ops.
Yeah, and you're on a first name basis with "everybody" at Scotland Yard, FZ, the CIA too, right? All the 007's, Jack the Ripper, you've played golf with them all, right, Terril park?

[degraded being]

Marty and Mike need a lot of (self-initiated) "deprogramming," unless they want to end up the darlings of the glass-humpty dumpty's in the Xenu-Bridge Freezone.

It's their choice.

They've only been out a short time. Give them time. There's no reason to assume that they'll be permanently frozen in the emotionally/intellectually stunted Scientology Freezone mind-set.

Anyone's a darling in the FZ. And that stuff about no osa ops happening?
If they did find an osa they wouldn't give a rats ass. And that other stuff about OSA not being allowed back in when they finished their FZ op. Perfectly scientological. Get some fucker to voulnteer to do the op. After FZ auditing and being connected there for months or more the guy could now be dangerous if let back into the org. Use him then lose him. Or "lose" all his files in a raid.

[Vittorio]

It was posted somewhere on the net, though I'm not sure where and it was a while ago, that an Italian OSA op called 'Timo' was a frequent visitor for over a year to Teril's FZ group. This may have even been posted in these message boards. From what was written he was never interviewed on a meter.

EDIT: I've just remembered - this is probably the same guy as the Italian at Saint Hill who is a guitarist. SO if he was visiting Teril's group then he would have been a plant as my sources tell me he's still onlines at SH.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Got any pics?

.

[Free to shine]

You are absolutely right.

There are stark parallels in the lives and behavior of addicts (drug addicts, sex addicts, thrill addicts, etc) and "dedicated" scientologists, obvious to anyone who has studied the phenomena associated with addiction, or had much interaction with addicts.

One of the first things to get past when dealing with the phenomena of addiction is the idea that people who are "high functioning" (successful in their career, have money, look clean, likeable, etc.) couldn't possible be "addicts." For most people, high-functioning addicts are difficult to spot because they are just so "right" and so "able." Thus camouflaged, they can wreak devastation on the people around them, leaving those in their wake feeling off balance, emotionally beat up, and wondering what the hell happened and what they did to "pull that in."

While you will find people near such an addict apologizing for possibly offending or upsetting them (I know you didn't mean to hit me honey, and I'm sorry I provoked you...), you'll seldom find the high-functioning addict apologizing to anyone -- more likely you'll find them justifying their every act and statement and explaining how they were right all along and YOU were wrong.

When it comes right down to it, like all active addicts who do not desire change, they will choose their "drug of choice" over everything else -- family, friends the law, ethics and morality, whatever.

This at least in part explains the phenomenon of "disconnection" in scientology -- people sacrificing the welfare of their children or parents in order to pursue their scientology addiction -- as well as the amazing amounts of money and energy that people are willing to pour into scientology, and the quasi-criminal activities they will engage in to get that money.

But I think addiction to scientology is more complex than addiction to "auditing" because I know people who have been involved in scientology most of their lives and exhibit all the attributes associated with addiction, yet who haven't had an auditing session for years and years! because they can't afford it, because they're "PTS," or in some kind of "ethics" handling, or whatever.

So I think addiction to scientology MAY INCLUDE addiction to the euphoria experienced in auditing sessions, but ALSO includes addiction to power, to being part of an elite group of superior beings, to approval from that group, to one's idea of oneself as a nonconformist, to one's idea of one's superior intellect or creativity or whatever flavor of prowess you care to name, to the sense of "danger" associated with being a scientologist, to the "speed rush" of the urgency associated with scientology, and so forth and so on.

In scientology, humility in any form is discouraged. Ego is encouraged and celebrated. Scientology strengthens all these flavors of "emotional addiction" by making those who exhibit them RIGHT.

None of this would matter (for example, who really cares if someone is addicted to running and the release of body chemicals which comes with obsessive engagement in that activity?) except for the effects of addiction on those associated with the addict.

Not only the close family (siblings, parents, children) but others with whom the addict has only limited contact may be negatively affected. Stories of various kinds of insensitivity and outright abuse perpetrated by "dedicated scientologists" on those near them abound; less noted (and of course less harmful but still examples of what I'm describing) are the insensitive remarks, disdainful attitudes, and cheery attempts to "handle" those devastated by scientology with yet more scientology that you find even in this environment.

Alcoholism is widely recognized as a social problem because of the destructive effects of alcoholism: people killed by drunk drivers and drunks with guns, families devastated by the self-centered behavior of alcoholics, and the destructive physical effects of years of drinking on the drinker.

With the outpouring of reports and personal stories on the internet, a similar range of social problems brought on by "scientology" are now coming to light.

There is a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous (which helps people deals with their addiction to alcohol and other substances and the emotional issues underlying that addiction) that "every addict who goes down takes seven others with him/her."

I believe this is true of scientology, as well.

In a setting equivalent to AA meetings for those engaged in and/or affected by alcoholism, I believe ESMB serves as a "recovery meeting" for those who were engaged in and/or affected by "scientology" -- and I'm really, really glad to be here and see it evolve to what it has become.

What an excellent post. Honestly, I feel like framing some of yours at times. Yes, that's just how it is. :)

[Terril park]

It was posted somewhere on the net, though I'm not sure where and it was a while ago, that an Italian OSA op called 'Timo' was a frequent visitor for over a year to Teril's FZ group. This may have even been posted in these message boards. From what was written he was never interviewed on a meter.

EDIT: I've just remembered - this is probably the same guy as the Italian at Saint Hill who is a guitarist. SO if he was visiting Teril's group then he would have been a plant as my sources tell me he's still onlines at SH.

Some in the group suspected there was a plant, I didn't. There was only circumstantial evidence of what I thought was a dubious nature. I'll PM you on this.

[olska]

What an excellent post. Honestly, I feel like framing some of yours at times. Yes, that's just how it is. :)

Thanks, FTS! :blush:

[uniquemand]

All well and good, except it isn't addiction. It's habit.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

All well and good, except it isn't addiction. It's habit.

Make no mistake about it, it's an addiction, it's not something audit junkies walk away from and act as if it never happened.

[Panda Termint]

and you know this to be true because... ?

[Benthoven]

I'm a newbie here, so please forgive if I'm still finding my way around this site. This post on the Scn-Addiction parallell for me, is right dead-on. I get really tired of reading non-scio impressions of us as "weak-minded" or otherwise mentally deficient or troubled, because some of the most intelligent and strong minded people I ever met were in Scn. I came into it very curious, seeking that extra mental or creative "edge" that was implied as the result of auditing. Being a pro jazz musician, and hearing Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke play and compose like they do, while attributing their gifts to Scn - was all the lure I needed. Reaching that plateau of ability became my driving force, and Scn was promoted as the channel to reach it - and the addiction to the auditing euphoria, an altered state quite similar to when a musician is "getting off" while playing and improvising, seemed to be the way Chick and Stanley got there. What a cruel joke. The more I got auditing, the further from my musical goals I fell. I was married to a crazy Scn woman who kept bullying me to get more and more and more (especially for her) - implied was, "Yeah, buying your next level will unlock your infinite musical ability!" Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.

[olska]

All well and good, except it isn't addiction. It's habit.

WHAT are you referring to when you say "it" isn't addiction, it's habit?

And what distinction are you making between addiction and habit?

Here's addiction as described/defined by wikipedia:


The term "addiction" is used in many contexts to describe an obsession, compulsion, or excessive psychological dependence, such as: drug addiction (e.g. alcoholism), video game addiction, crime, money, work addiction, compulsive overeating, problem gambling, computer addiction, nicotine addiction, pornography addiction, plastic surgery addiction, etc.

In medical terminology, an addiction is a state in which the body depends on a substance for normal functioning and may occur along with physical dependence, as in drug addiction. When the drug or substance on which someone is dependent is suddenly removed, it will cause withdrawal, a characteristic set of signs and symptoms. Addiction is generally associated with increased drug tolerance. In physiological terms, addiction is not necessarily associated with substance abuse since this form of addiction can result from using medication as prescribed by a doctor. Physical dependence is different from psychological dependence (addiction). The latter is often characterized by a compulsive need for a drug for psychological reasons, while the former is characterized by need for the drug due to tolerance and the need to prevent withdrawal symptoms on discontinuing the use of a drug. Physical dependence however, commonly occurs with both addiction and therapeutic use of drugs.

However, common usage of the term addiction has spread to include psychological dependence. In this context, the term is used in drug addiction and substance abuse problems, but also refers to behaviors that are not generally recognized by the medical community as problems of addiction, such as compulsive overeating.

The term addiction is also sometimes applied to compulsions that are not substance-related, such as problem gambling and computer addiction. In these kinds of common usages, the term addiction is used to describe a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences, as deemed by the user himself to his or her individual health, mental state or social life.

I've highlighted in red points I feel are particularly applicable to this discussion.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

and you know this to be true because... ?

If you can just walk away from it, the person teaching you Hubbard Tech did not do his or her job properly.

Hubbard created his technology to not only make a person dependent on it for life, but for the next billion years.

[Panda Termint]

If you can just walk away from it, the person teaching you Hubbard Tech did not do his or her job properly.

Hubbard created his technology to not only make a person dependent on it for life, but for the next billion years.
There are hundreds of people here on ESMB who have done exactly that (walked away from auditing with never a backward glance).
The "addiction analogy" is a good one for anecdotal purposes but it's inaccurate in my opinion.
Do you base your data on personal experience?

[Alanzo]

I'm a newbie here, so please forgive if I'm still finding my way around this site. This post on the Scn-Addiction parallell for me, is right dead-on. I get really tired of reading non-scio impressions of us as "weak-minded" or otherwise mentally deficient or troubled, because some of the most intelligent and strong minded people I ever met were in Scn. I came into it very curious, seeking that extra mental or creative "edge" that was implied as the result of auditing. Being a pro jazz musician, and hearing Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke play and compose like they do, while attributing their gifts to Scn - was all the lure I needed. Reaching that plateau of ability became my driving force, and Scn was promoted as the channel to reach it - and the addiction to the auditing euphoria, an altered state quite similar to when a musician is "getting off" while playing and improvising, seemed to be the way Chick and Stanley got there. What a cruel joke. The more I got auditing, the further from my musical goals I fell. I was married to a crazy Scn woman who kept bullying me to get more and more and more (especially for her) - implied was, "Yeah, buying your next level will unlock your infinite musical ability!" Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.

I too got involved in Scientology to somehow improve my artistic and creative abilities.

Total failure.

I look on my time in LA, where I was trying to get a career going, as constantly being distracted by Scientology, and by constant personal upheavals in my finances and self-identity which derailed my progress.

Scientology makes a person very unstable, very distracted, and very drained of any creative energy.

But you think you are on this golden path to brilliance. All the while you are simply being fleeced.

Welcome to ESMB, Benthoven!

[Div6]

There are hundreds of people here on ESMB who have done exactly that (walked away from auditing with never a backward glance).
The "addiction analogy" is a good one for anecdotal purposes but it's inaccurate in my opinion.
Do you base your data on personal experience?

Panda,

What I have noticed is that what *you* and *I* call "Scientology" is NOT what is being promulgated in the "Church" these days. I have seen more and more people cowed into fear and silence, and when you crack that silence the first thing is "scientology is crap". I do not think for a minute that all of these people are "No Gain Cases". I do think that they have not had "standard tech" applied to them.

Something Marty said about the "cultification" of Scn got me to looking at a few things. For me, one of the big flashing red lights occurred with the release of the "Orientation" film. That film set a tone of fanaticism and "hard sell" that just smells of " destructive cult". You remember the quote?


"If you leave this room after seeing this film, and walk out and never mention Scientology again, you are perfectly free to do so. It would be stupid, but you can do it. You can also dive off a bridge or blow your brains out. That is your choice. But, if you don't walk out that way, if you continue with Scientology, we will be very happy with you. And, you will be very happy with you. You will have proven that you are a friend of yours."

[Div6]

I'm a newbie here, so please forgive if I'm still finding my way around this site. This post on the Scn-Addiction parallell for me, is right dead-on. I get really tired of reading non-scio impressions of us as "weak-minded" or otherwise mentally deficient or troubled, because some of the most intelligent and strong minded people I ever met were in Scn. I came into it very curious, seeking that extra mental or creative "edge" that was implied as the result of auditing. Being a pro jazz musician, and hearing Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke play and compose like they do, while attributing their gifts to Scn - was all the lure I needed. Reaching that plateau of ability became my driving force, and Scn was promoted as the channel to reach it - and the addiction to the auditing euphoria, an altered state quite similar to when a musician is "getting off" while playing and improvising, seemed to be the way Chick and Stanley got there. What a cruel joke. The more I got auditing, the further from my musical goals I fell. I was married to a crazy Scn woman who kept bullying me to get more and more and more (especially for her) - implied was, "Yeah, buying your next level will unlock your infinite musical ability!" Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.

Welcome my dear little Ludwig. Welcome, to the machine........


:)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

There are hundreds of people here on ESMB who have done exactly that (walked away from auditing with never a backward glance).
The "addiction analogy" is a good one for anecdotal purposes but it's inaccurate in my opinion.
Do you base your data on personal experience?

The Data is the countless ruined lives and emptied bank accounts supporting it, but with even than being said, not every addiction makes a person completely dysfunctional, since quite a bit of people can do recreational drugs and drink alcohol daily for years, and still function in society and then walk away from it when they have had enough

The bottom line is the sole purpose of Hubbard's tech is to make you dependent on it so you can advance his twisted totalitarian vision of what he wanted the world to be. It's straight of of a Cold War horror film.

[Panda Termint]

Yes, Div6, it often occurs to me that we sometimes seem to be talking about a different thing than what I experienced as scientology.

[Div6]

The Data is the countless ruined lives and emptied bank accounts supporting it, but with even than being said, not every addiction makes a person completely dysfunctional, since quite a bit of people can do recreational drugs and drink alcohol daily for years, and still function in society and then walk away from it when they have had enough

The bottom line is the sole purpose of Hubbard's tech is to make you dependent on it so you can advance his twisted totalitarian vision of what he wanted the world to be. It's straight of of a Cold War horror film.

This statement is not true for me. But I acknowledge it is true for you.

[Panda Termint]

The Data is the countless ruined lives and emptied bank accounts supporting it, but with even than being said, not every addiction makes a person completely dysfunctional, since quite a bit of people can do recreational drugs and drink alcohol daily for years, and still function in society and then walk away from it when they have had enough

The bottom line is the sole purpose of Hubbard's tech is to make you dependent on it so you can advance his twisted totalitarian vision of what he wanted the world to be. It's straight of of a Cold War horror film.
That may be true for you.
It's definitely not for me.
I was an active scientologist for 34 years and have no intention of ever participating in it again.
I'm not trying to defend scientology, it's just that I dislike seeing what I think are distortions of the truth.
That being said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[La La Lou Lou]

Benthoven, welcome, funny that, coming in to improve your creativity.

I did partially too.

However it was other fish to fry so I had to knock it off.

I hope youre enjoying the freedom to make music again!:yes:





La La Lou Lou

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

That may be true for you.
It's definitely not for me.
I was an active scientologist for 34 years and have no intention of ever participating in it again.
I'm not trying to defend scientology, it's just that I dislike seeing what I think are distortions of the truth.
That being said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I recall being constantly and relentlessly pressured in buying more services from them and then being forced into documenting how great they were and why I need them to advance in my spiritual betterment just befor I was pressured into purchasing more. Going at my own pace was not even close to being an option, In the end I recall making sure I went out partying the night before they wanted me to come in for a session, just so I couldn't give in and allow them to talk me into coming in. Being unsessionable "if that's even a real word" was the easiest way for me to get them off the phone.

[Panda Termint]

Fair enough, Chuck, you have your opinion and I have mine.
The good news is; in our new lives, disagreement is permitted.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Fair enough, Chuck, you have your opinion and I have mine.
The good news is; we're permitted to disagree in our new lives.

Absolutely, that's what makes this place such as valuable public service, this forum would be totally useless if we couldn't express our thoughts and feeling honestly here.

[olska]

There are hundreds of people here on ESMB who have done exactly that (walked away from auditing with never a backward glance).

Really? Where are those hundreds?

Most of the personal stories published on this forum tell of the writer's personal struggle, of serious attempts to "handle" things through the regular channels at their org; and when that failed, of going through a period (a period sometimes lasting many years) of painful isolation being cut off from family and friends, afraid to communicate one's true thoughts and feelings, of questioning and soul searching, wondering if there really is that "big overt" or "misunderstood" underlying the "blow," wondering if "the tech" is right and the writer who has left is really an "SP" after all.

Thankfully, most of the writers of those personal stories worked through all that, shed their self-doubts and went on to recovery of their emotional health and balance.

Some chose to stay with "the tech" with non-CoS practitioners, haven't yet walked away, might never. Their choice, of course.

Except for a minimal few who were only superficially involved with scientology, I haven't seen stories of people who "walked away" so casually.


The "addiction analogy" is a good one for anecdotal purposes but it's inaccurate in my opinion.

Maybe you are expecting someone to say that EVERY scientologist is/was an addict? no one said that. Plus, there are "degrees" of addiction -- how much suffering and pain a person will endure (or cause) before reaching their "bottom" and deciding to change. For some people, that bottom is death -- they never change. For others, it might be finding themselves on the verge of financial ruin but not yet bankrupt, or suddenly realizing that their children are at risk because they've been neglecting those children while indulging themselves in their addictive behavior.

And of course you are free to hold whatever opinion you choose, whatever that may be.

But the first step toward recovery from addiction (whether one's own or that of someone you're close to) is to recognize it for what it is.


Do you base your data on personal experience?

You asked this question of ChuckNCML, but since I've already written on this issue, I'll answer for myself: yes.

[Veda]

Yes, Div6, it often occurs to me that we sometimes seem to be talking about a different thing than what I experienced as scientology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

By 1968, Scientology qualified as a 'destructive cult'. It had everything required and more. (Miscavige was 8 years old then.)

You might as well face it.

[Div6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

By 1968, Scientology qualified as a 'destructive cult'. It had everything required and more. (Miscavige was 8 years old then.)

You might as well face it.

What makes you think I haven't?

I look at anyone with a reality to "enforce" as having an undisclosed agenda.

Is that true for you too?

If so, what is yours?

[Voltaire's Child]

I'm a newbie here, so please forgive if I'm still finding my way around this site. This post on the Scn-Addiction parallell for me, is right dead-on. I get really tired of reading non-scio impressions of us as "weak-minded" or otherwise mentally deficient or troubled, because some of the most intelligent and strong minded people I ever met were in Scn. I came into it very curious, seeking that extra mental or creative "edge" that was implied as the result of auditing. Being a pro jazz musician, and hearing Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke play and compose like they do, while attributing their gifts to Scn - was all the lure I needed. Reaching that plateau of ability became my driving force, and Scn was promoted as the channel to reach it - and the addiction to the auditing euphoria, an altered state quite similar to when a musician is "getting off" while playing and improvising, seemed to be the way Chick and Stanley got there. What a cruel joke. The more I got auditing, the further from my musical goals I fell. I was married to a crazy Scn woman who kept bullying me to get more and more and more (especially for her) - implied was, "Yeah, buying your next level will unlock your infinite musical ability!" Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.


I get what you're saying but sometimes the shoe is on the other foot. Scn'ists who are interested in auditing are often portrayed as weak minded, addicted, etc. And that gets old too, believe me.

[Voltaire's Child]

May as well say what?

I'm saying the logic (or lack thereof) would be the same.




Really? Do you have examples? Care to share how you came to that conclusion?

Look in the mirror sometime.

[Voltaire's Child]

To be completely honest I'm not even interested in yours or anyone else's past lives, I just know talking about them is not good for marketing. This thread has completely gotten off track, but since we are here; the point I'm making is whether you are in the freezone or the cult itself, if you follow Hubbard's so called "Tech" the end result will be the same. You will get to a point in the upper levels where you spend the rest of your life removing Hubbard's imaginary spiritual parasites known as Body Thetans, and trying to convince yourself that it is helping you become some form of higher being known as "OT" which does not exist and never did exist, then you will be encouraged if not forced to write up these gains in order to help market the scam. And if for some reason this process makes you worse, you will not be allowed to communicate this under any circumstances or you will be cut off. Now granted some people may not know or believe it's a scam and actually believe that the state of Clear and OT is anything but imaginary, regardless of their intentions if they are not upfront with where Hubbard's Tech will take the person they are indoctrinating right from the beginning, they are advancing the scam. Until the upper levels are explain to a person in detail right from the very beginning, it is nothing but a totalitarian mind control cult that worships Hubbard and his creation exactly as Hubbard intended it to be.


Doesn't hurt the FZ to talk about them. But like I said, if you don't play nice, you'll only irritate people. And those people won't be just Scientologists, either.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Doesn't hurt the FZ to talk about them. But like I said, if you don't play nice, you'll only irritate people. And those people won't be just Scientologists, either.

Yeah I'm going to remain silence about Hubbard, his Totalitarian Mind Control Scam, and the people peddling it... like that has a chance of happening anytime soon.

[well_that_sucked]

Ever wonder where ole Hubturd got the idea for BTs?


This is your brain on Scientology
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3659843617_83f2df4abb.jpg

[olska]

Look in the mirror sometime.

ok, in response to a thoughtful discussion about the devastation suffered by individuals and families as a result of their involvement in scientology -- for which there is ample evidence and testimony right here on this forum -- you offer yet another personal snipe.

No surprise -- you've been sniping at me ever since I first started participating in these kinds of discussions back in 2002 on OCMB, and have yet to produce any kind of logical, reasoned, or thoughtful response to anything I've written.

If you really feel that the devastation of individuals and families as a result of their participation in scientology bears no relationship to similar devastation that results from addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. etc. then why don't you participate in the discussion, write up your thoughts on the subject, submit your arguments, make your point.

The sniping only makes it look like you have nothing of substance to say on the issue and are only hoping to make the people who are participating in the discussion shut up about it...

... But of course that couldn't be true, you being all about free speech and all...

[olska]

I get what you're saying but sometimes the shoe is on the other foot. Scn'ists who are interested in auditing are often portrayed as weak minded, addicted, etc. And that gets old too, believe me.

I think you didn't "get" what Benthoven said at all. You must have missed his last line, in which he wrote:


Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Your post was exeptional Olska! - I liked it a lot!

Dunno what Fluffy is on about...

:yes:

[Voltaire's Child]

Yeah I'm going to remain silence about Hubbard, his Totalitarian Mind Control Scam, and the people peddling it... like that has a chance of happening anytime soon.


Never, in all the echoing corridors of time, did I state or imply that you should remain silent about your views.

[Voltaire's Child]

I think you didn't "get" what Benthoven said at all. You must have missed his last line, in which he wrote:

I did get it. I got it quite well. I had an additional point to make so I made it.

That happens on forums sometimes.

[Voltaire's Child]

ok, in response to a thoughtful discussion about the devastation suffered by individuals and families as a result of their involvement in scientology -- for which there is ample evidence and testimony right here on this forum -- you offer yet another personal snipe.

No surprise -- you've been sniping at me ever since I first started participating in these kinds of discussions back in 2002 on OCMB, and have yet to produce any kind of logical, reasoned, or thoughtful response to anything I've written.

If you really feel that the devastation of individuals and families as a result of their participation in scientology bears no relationship to similar devastation that results from addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. etc. then why don't you participate in the discussion, write up your thoughts on the subject, submit your arguments, make your point.

The sniping only makes it look like you have nothing of substance to say on the issue and are only hoping to make the people who are participating in the discussion shut up about it...

... But of course that couldn't be true, you being all about free speech and all...


I've posted many things of a thoughtful nature and responded to many such posts in such a manner. That can be found on any forum on which I've participated. You have never responded to me on any of those, IIRC.

As to the rest--


No, Olska, you've been sniping at me since 2002. I never had any inclination to single you out or comment on your posts otherwise. It would be very easy for me to find thread after thread where I was not talking to or about you and you initiated discourse of a negative nature to and about me. You've done it here. You've done it on OCMB. I can prove it. You were hassling me a lot and I got tired of it. You posted something snippy to me just the other week and I sure as shit wasn't talking to or about you on that thread.

You've written posts for the past 7 years that would almost curl even my hair. When that happens and keeps happening that causes the other person to get pissed off which is exactly what happened here.

If you want to bury the hatchet- great. But there's no way I'm going to sit here and have you misrepresent what's occurred in the past. If you'd like to go beyond it that's fine. But that means you can't jump my shit anymore. And if rapprochement is reached then I'll not mention any of that ever again or make any allusion to it whatsoever. I can name several people with whom I've done that.

I'm more than happy to start anew, but I'm not going to say that it's anything other than a total crock of shite that I've been singling you out and picking on you since 2002. I never knew or cared who the hell you were and I didn't object to your posts or your stance or anything about you til you started climbing down my throat. That, for me, was a dealbreaker. So don't slam someone for 7 years then tell the forum that this person's been the one hassling you for 7 years. That's backwards and it's a lie.

[Voltaire's Child]

Your post was exeptional Olska! - I liked it a lot!

Dunno what Fluffy is on about...

:yes:



Then feel free to ask me if you don't know what point I'm making or why I said something.

[olska]

I've posted many things of a thoughtful nature and responded to many such posts in such a manner. That can be found on any forum on which I've participated. You have never responded to me on any of those, IIRC.

As to the rest--


No, Olska, you've been sniping at me since 2002. I never had any inclination to single you out or comment on your posts otherwise. It would be very easy for me to find thread after thread where I was not talking to or about you and you initiated discourse of a negative nature to and about me. You've done it here. You've done it on OCMB. I can prove it. You were hassling me a lot and I got tired of it. You posted something snippy to me just the other week and I sure as shit wasn't talking to or about you on that thread.

You've written posts for the past 7 years that would almost curl even my hair. When that happens and keeps happening that causes the other person to get pissed off which is exactly what happened here.

If you want to bury the hatchet- great. But there's no way I'm going to sit here and have you misrepresent what's occurred in the past. If you'd like to go beyond it that's fine. But that means you can't jump my shit anymore. And if rapprochement is reached then I'll not mention any of that ever again or make any allusion to it whatsoever. I can name several people with whom I've done that.

I'm more than happy to start anew, but I'm not going to say that it's anything other than a total crock of shite that I've been singling you out and picking on you since 2002. I never knew or cared who the hell you were and I didn't object to your posts or your stance or anything about you til you started climbing down my throat. That, for me, was a dealbreaker. So don't slam someone for 7 years then tell the forum that this person's been the one hassling you for 7 years. That's backwards and it's a lie.

I'm sure anyone who wants to slog through the more than 7,000 posts you've made on this forum, and through my getting-close-to-300 posts on this forum can determine for themselves and come to their own conclusions about who snipes at whom when and how much -- if they are so inclined. And if that's not enough info for them, they can do a similar search on the OCMB website and slog through all that, too.

If you want to bury a hatchet, go ahead -- I'm not holding one, nor am I interested in "starting anew" or your idea of "rapprochement," whatever it is that you mean by that, so I'll pass on further derailing what was an interesting discussion about scientology and addiction into a tit for tat contest with you, and go back to what I suggested in my previous post:

If you really feel that the devastation of individuals and families as a result of their participation in scientology bears no relationship or parallels to similar devastation that results from addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. etc. then why don't you participate in THAT discussion, write up your thoughts on the subject, submit your arguments, make your point.

. . . .

And I'll make this appeal to the moderator:

could you take the posts regarding the discussion of "scientology and addiction" out of this thread and transfer them to a new thread with that title? The discussion of scientology and addiction veered off the original topic, so doesn't really belong on this thread; but I think it's a discussion worthy of its own thread. Your call.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Then feel free to ask me if you don't know what point I'm making or why I said something.Nah.. I was just sqeezin' off a snide remark on crossflow.

:hattip:

[Zinjifar]

And I'll make this appeal to the moderator:

could you take the posts regarding the discussion of "scientology and addiction" out of this thread and transfer them to a new thread with that title? The discussion of scientology and addiction veered off the original topic, so doesn't really belong on this thread; but I think it's a discussion worthy of its own thread. Your call.

Or better; move them to the 'It's All About Fluffy' thread?


Zinj

[nexus100]

Or better; move them to the 'It's All About Fluffy' thread?


Zinj

I suppose server space could be expanded to accomodate such an enterprise.

[DorothyInOz]

Whatever someone wants to buy into, both figuratively and financially, is their biz. The problem is there's no independent analysis and statistics.

If 1,000 people brought their car in for repairs at ABC Car Repair shop for the Car Repair Rundown, and 1,000 of those cars broke back down after a month or two, then customers should have access to that information. Period.

In Scn, year after year, decade after decade, what happens is the Rundown (OT levels) is either a) redone or b) renamed.
c) Later, if you keep going back to this, you'll be told it's your car's fault, and it has to be completely rehauled. D) eventually it's all your fault.

After 60 years, some have realized not to go back to the ABC Car Repair shop. It is Not any more complicated than that.:coolwink:



I think Holy Cow has hit the nail on the head here !

[Voltaire's Child]

Or better; move them to the 'It's All About Fluffy' thread?


Zinj

I didn't put the subject on the table but I sure did respond to it. I'm more than happy to see it removed. Fine with me.

[Voltaire's Child]

If you really feel that the devastation of individuals and families as a result of their participation in scientology bears no relationship or parallels to similar devastation that results from addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. etc. then why don't you participate in THAT discussion, write up your thoughts on the subject, submit your arguments, make your point.



I have, in fact, discussed that a number of times on this thread and on others.

I made my first reply to you (the one from yesterday) because I think that some people do find bashing Scn'ists rather addictive. Not just you. I think motives and explanations of the most uncharitable sort are invented and attributed far too often. It reminds me of Scn'ists talking about evil critics. I don't think it's good. I think it's one dimensional and constitutes false logic. I think this gets done instead of looking at factors such as pursuing a spiritual avocation. I think that this sort of thing can be just as addictive as the auditing in the scenario that some of you have proposed here. I think the bashing gets compulsive.

So, yes, I said "look in the mirror" but what I should have said was the above- because that's what I meant. I've seldom, if any, seen any charitable expressions from you and a few other folks on the subject of people having Scn as their personal ideology. I think this behavior is compulsive, frankly. I would have been happy to go into this more at the time but I got distracted by the deflection caused by your initiating discussion on to another topic- which I shouldn't have been.

Please do not discuss me on this forum again.

[uniquemand]

I think Holy Cow has hit the nail on the head here !

Yup, Holy Cow's got it.

[clamicide]

I'm a newbie here, so please forgive if I'm still finding my way around this site. This post on the Scn-Addiction parallell for me, is right dead-on. I get really tired of reading non-scio impressions of us as "weak-minded" or otherwise mentally deficient or troubled, because some of the most intelligent and strong minded people I ever met were in Scn. I came into it very curious, seeking that extra mental or creative "edge" that was implied as the result of auditing. Being a pro jazz musician, and hearing Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke play and compose like they do, while attributing their gifts to Scn - was all the lure I needed. Reaching that plateau of ability became my driving force, and Scn was promoted as the channel to reach it - and the addiction to the auditing euphoria, an altered state quite similar to when a musician is "getting off" while playing and improvising, seemed to be the way Chick and Stanley got there. What a cruel joke. The more I got auditing, the further from my musical goals I fell. I was married to a crazy Scn woman who kept bullying me to get more and more and more (especially for her) - implied was, "Yeah, buying your next level will unlock your infinite musical ability!" Like any other addiction, it only led to ruin, financially, professionally, and personally (family and friends gone). What a cruel joke.

:welcome:
Yeah...it's nutso, ain't it? I met so many "able" and strong folks when I was checking the whole thing out, that I thought that it wasn't a con after all. We was just duped! :p Doesn't make us weak. And the artistic goals--such crap. Only those already famous or close to famous are allowed to pursue. I did an admin scale seminar that wound up with me wanting to pursue acting---WHOA! Imagine the looks...can you say "other fish to fry? But, they'll keep selling you that it'll 'unlock' that talent from your whole track or whatever. The only time I was truly myself as an artist was when I had "fallen off the Bridge". As soon as I got back on, they discouraged that sort of "theetie-wheetie bullshit".

[Panda Termint]

Really? Where are those hundreds?
ESMB has 2,015 members.... about 50 or so post regularly. Just like every group, we have a silent majority.


Except for a minimal few who were only superficially involved with scientology, I haven't seen stories of people who "walked away" so casually.
That's probably because they have walked away from it. I personally know many who just ceased giving any more of their precious time to the subject and I'm talking about people from all levels of the Bridge.


Maybe you are expecting someone to say that EVERY scientologist is/was an addict? no one said that.
Olska, I've used the addiction analogy myself many times, see http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=201214&postcount=50
my post on this thread is not a direct attack on the addiction analogy, it's an attempt to clarify how I see it. If you look at the sequence of posts immediately preceding mine, I'm sure you'll get it. I was commenting on that discussion not on your post, though I can see how it looks that way.


But the first step toward recovery from addiction (whether one's own or that of someone you're close to) is to recognize it for what it is.
Ah, and there lies the crux of it for me. My particular "addiction" seems to be "helping others", I've had it my whole life and it was the possibility of achieving/feeding that goal/purpose/addiction that first attracted me to scientology. These days I'm working my way through it via ESMB.

Love your work, keep it up. :)

[Veda]

In no particular order, and quickly assembled, here are some threads which examine the addictive nature of - if not "auditing" - the addictive nature of the "next mysterious level on the upper 'Bridge'."

Where single post is displayed, go to top right and click thread title to examine entire thread.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=6639&postcount=32

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=6898&page=3&highlight=junkie

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=7983

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=214688&postcount=52

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=214513&postcount=17

Not picking on anyone, however these threads - if one wishes to take the time to scan them - have some relevant information, IMO.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I remember reading a thread on here a while back claiming OT-10 gets you so jacked up that you need large groups of people around you to control. That is what the whole Saint Hill Size business is supposedly about. My first impression was it would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to just find a drug dealer and score some street drugs to take, if those are the delusions you are looking to achieve.

And the irony of this whole OT-10 delusion....

The only people capable of being controlled by these OT-10s are the Sceintologists in these Saint Hill Size Orgs ... everyone else on the planet seems to be immune from their powers

[Voltaire's Child]

The bottom line is that a person's exercise of spirituality- whether that be Scn (as ideology) or anything else- is going to vary from person to person. I would guess that in any religious or philosophical walk of life one can find "addicts".

I am well aware of the carrot and stick situation that CofS employs vis a vis auditing. Could that foster something akin to addiction? Perhaps, in some cases.

[olska]

Olska, I've used the addiction analogy myself many times, see http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=201214&postcount=50

my post on this thread is not a direct attack on the addiction analogy, it's an attempt to clarify how I see it. If you look at the sequence of posts immediately preceding mine, I'm sure you'll get it. I was commenting on that discussion not on your post, though I can see how it looks that way.

okay


ESMB has 2,015 members.... about 50 or so post regularly. Just like every group, we have a silent majority.

That's probably because they have walked away from it. I personally know many who just ceased giving any more of their precious time to the subject and I'm talking about people from all levels of the Bridge.

Glad to hear it.

Unfortunately, I think my friends are in "for the duration."

They are lovely people, now past age 60, and after about 35 years in scientology they have no financial resources other than their social security and the little they earn working for one of the church front groups, and are anxioulsy waiting for an aged parent to die (could happen any day now) and hoping their share of the inheritance will be large enough to pay off their substantial credit card debt and get them through the critical OT levels.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

okay



Glad to hear it.

Unfortunately, I think my friends are in "for the duration."

They are lovely people, now past age 60, and after about 35 years in scientology they have no financial resources other than their social security and the little they earn working for one of the church front groups, and are anxioulsy waiting for an aged parent to die (could happen any day now) and hoping their share of the inheritance will be large enough to pay off their substantial credit card debt and get them through the critical OT levels.

That is so sad, that is even sadder that the stories I've heard about senior citizens spending their saving on lottery tickets hoping to hit a jackpot which will allow them to live out their lives in comfort.

[Challenge]

That is so sad, that is even sadder that the stories I've heard about senior citizens spending their saving on lottery tickets hoping to hit a jackpot which will allow them to live out their lives in comfort.

The guys who do not see the corollary between addiction and auditing have clearly not audited others very much. Audit in AOLA's HGC and you will be auditing 9 out of 10 who are absolutely addicted to auditing.
I used to play Poker. ( a card game for those innocents who don't know). It is a gambling game. I saw addiction there, and it is not pretty. It was the same in auditing. People who feel that they "*must* *have to* have that next level. That next session. Get the money for the next step on the Bridge". At the level of NOTs it is even worse. Imagine auditing BT/Cls year upon year, and paying thru the kazoo to do it.
Of course, not everyone falls into the trap. No one said that every one did. But a great many do, and you can see them on the upper levels at any AO.
To deny the similarities between addiction and auditing is ingenuous, if not intentionally dense.

Chlng

[Panda Termint]

The guys who do not see the corollary between addiction and auditing have clearly not audited others very much. Audit in AOLA's HGC and you will be auditing 9 out of 10 who are absolutely addicted to auditing.
I used to play Poker. ( a card game for those innocents who don't know). It is a gambling game. I saw addiction there, and it is not pretty. It was the same in auditing. People who feel that they "*must* *have to* have that next level. That next session. Get the money for the next step on the Bridge". At the level of NOTs it is even worse. Imagine auditing BT/Cls year upon year, and paying thru the kazoo to do it.
Of course, not everyone falls into the trap. No one said that every one did. But a great many do, and you can see them on the upper levels at any AO.
To deny the similarities between addiction and auditing is ingenuous, if not intentionally dense.

Chlng
Chlng,
I've delivered well in excess of 10,000 hours of auditing to others.
There must be another reason (other than the one you propose) for why I think the way I do about it.

I certainly have met the occassional auditing-addict but that would be, to me, more the exception than the rule.

[Div6]

Chlng,
I've delivered well in excess of 10,000 hours of auditing to others.
There must be another reason (other than the one you propose) for why I think the way I do about it.

I certainly have met the occassional auditing-addict but that would be, to me, more the exception than the rule.

Have they dropped out Expanded Green Forms?

"Seeking the same thrill as drugs?" etc?

[Veda]

Have they dropped out Expanded Green Forms?

"Seeking the same thrill as drugs?" etc?

Does citing that line from the 'Green Form' place you in a serene alpha-state re. the issue being discussed? Is your needle floating?

[Voltaire's Child]

I'm confused. Why foster addiction? I think I read somewhere that Challenge still audits pcs.