Scientologists react to Miscavige/Davis meltdown

[HelluvaHoax!]

Have you spoken to any Scientologists about the electrifying whistle-blower expose in the SP Times? I have.

This afternoon I had a long conversation with a SCN who was down at Flag. Near the end, when they felt very comfortable, I casually asked what they thought about those St. Pete Times articles.

This is a very intelligent and loving person, someone I am related to, that I got into Scn decades ago. In essence they emphatically said that is was "completely crazy!"

They went into some detail about how the purpose of the article was to attack and harm Scientology. The proof of that (supposedly) was that nothing bad was said about Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard; the only purpose was to attack David Miscavige.

The person I was speaking to knows I have not been active in a very long time. They do not know that I am am of like mind to the people they said were "just crazy!"

I very lightly asked them if they thought there was any possibility that any of it (DM brutalizing his juniors) could be true.............

They went back to repeating how "completely crazy" all this was. Then, most unexpectedly a grenade went off . They described in loving terms what a wonderful man Miscavige is: "He is such a gentle soul" (they actually said that).

Then in rapid fire, they proved that it cannot be true that he attacked all these people because, besides being such a good man, he couldn't have done all that violence because he is only 5 feet five inches tall. (seriously, I did not make this up)

HAVE YOU ASKED A SCIENTOLOGIST WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT THIS EPIC PR FLAP? It was a complete shock and revelation to me that this wonderful person I have known my entire life could have such a pitifully delusional view of reality. I was having a live conversation with a person who was actually asleep! It was disturbing and sad to realize the profound depths of unawareness that my friend had descended to at the hands of scn tech and propaganda.

(coda: Hubbard's highest technical achievement was the "discovery" of "dormant thetans" which get exorcised on OT III, IV, V, VI and VII. He didn't mention that his church also guaranteed that YOU would become a dormant thetan in the process)

[Iknowtoomuch]

".....and how'd you justify that?"





:D

[Div6]

Unbelievable! They must have passed out the DM kool-aid already...

[Smurf]

Have you spoken to any Scientologists about the electrifying whistle-blower expose in the SP Times? I have.

This afternoon I had a long conversation with a SCN who was down at Flag. Near the end, when they felt very comfortable, I casually asked what they thought about those St. Pete Times articles.

This is a very intelligent and loving person, someone I am related to, that I got into Scn decades ago. In essence they emphatically said that is was "completely crazy!"

They went into some detail about how the purpose of the article was to attack and harm Scientology. The proof of that (supposedly) was that nothing bad was said about Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard; the only purpose was to attack David Miscavige.

The person I was speaking to knows I have not been active in a very long time. They do not know that I am am of like mind to the people they said were "just crazy!"

I very lightly asked them if they thought there was any possibility that any of it (DM brutalizing his juniors) could be true.............

They went back to repeating how "completely crazy" all this was. Then, most unexpectedly a grenade went off . They described in loving terms what a wonderful man Miscavige is: "He is such a gentle soul" (they actually said that).

Then in rapid fire, they proved that it cannot be true that he attacked all these people because, besides being such a good man, he couldn't have done all that violence because he is only 5 feet five inches tall.

Should have asked if they ever watched professional wrestling? They have midgets battling & slapping each other all the time, tossing one another out of the ring (even if the shit is choreographed).

[everfree]

Most Scientologists are nice people who want to help people. They prize aspects of Scn like good communication. In the lower level orgs, most other Scnists they know also prize such things, helping people is their main goal.

As one goes up the org board, the goal changes from helping people to "getting production" by whatever means necessary. Unless John Q Public has experienced this for himself he, know his own purpose to help people, will have a tough time believing that things like screaming, coerced abortions, enforced disconnection of families exist because it so goes against what they themselves value in Scn.

Even if they've seen some of it themselves, it tends to get discounted as an isolated incident which goes against Scn principles. They don't realize that it is ~not~ a one time occurrence but that it has been like that for decades. Anything negative about CofS gets discounted by Scnists while anything positive or quasi-positive gets hyped beyond belief.

Thus, it would not be surprising if many Scnists discounted the stories of physical abuse even though Tommy Davis admitted to at least 50+ occurrences. But hopefully it will prompt many to seriously look at how CofS operates and start asking questions.

[HelluvaHoax!]

The reaction I have seen so far on "bad news" about Scientology (from Scientologists) is simply
this:

"NO!"

They might say it in 1000 different ways, but it all boils down to "No, that did not happen! No that is not true!"

What is fascinating is WHY they must answer that way.

What do they think would happen if it might be true???

The mind of a Scientologist is a delicate and fragile house of cards. A parishioner cannot afford to let a single card fall.

That's why the answer has to be "NO!"

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

This is a very intelligent and loving person, someone I am related to, that I got into Scn decades ago. In essence they emphatically said that is was "completely crazy!"

They went into some detail about how the purpose of the article was to attack and harm Scientology. The proof of that (supposedly) was that nothing bad was said about Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard; the only purpose was to attack David Miscavige.


Your friends do have a point regarding Marty and company only looking to attack Miscavige, that is pretty much all I saw them doing too, but as far as the rest of their insanity goes, it's not surprising at all. We have people here using the same mentality when it comes to protecting Hubbard. This is exactly what Hubbard's tech was designed to do. Hubbard's tech was designed to free you of all critical, rational, and objective thought regarding Hubbard and anything associated with his totalitarian movement. It's very difficult to get brainwashed people to face reality, especially when they are still addicted to the hypnotic mind melting trance Hubbard's auditing was designed to create.

[Doom]

To say that these people are fragile is , well assuming a little much, It is the reverse these people are hard to crack (unless you the right buttons to push) and as for the Sea org, I shit you not they are some of the toughest hard core storm troopers you will ever come across, they can stand up to some of the harshest, most demeaning and humilating shit anyone can dish out( I know because I was one)
So if you think this DM scandal is the end, Nope not buying.
We as Exs, Anons,Free zoners and everyone else have to Keep up the Pressure and a good place to start is to cut the money lines, Remove the public (with their money) only those that want to, but their numbers are swelling, so even with the storm troopers from hell, if they dont have the bullets( MONEY)they cant continue to fight and then you have Pwnage :shithitfan:

[La La Lou Lou]

I had doubts for donkeys years, you learn never to vocalise them, they will be discussing this and it will be stored, it will be held, next time they hear the name McPherson, or see pictures of captives at int, or see a sea org member having their face ripped off it will add to the pile of stuff they know. Eventually it will force its way through the propaganda and lies and they will realise, not a blinding cognition, just slowly get the ballance right.

The war isnt over, its just begun. But its a brilliant start.

The truth will win in the end.

A lot of the information Ive read on this site I did know when I was in, but it didnt overballance the bullshit till after Id blown!

Be patient my presciouses!

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I had the same response as the orginal poster. The line about DM being 5'5" was used in one case vebatim. It must be a planned PR resonse because how many people would know his exact height.
If you run into that, remind them that Stalin was 5'2'.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I had the same response as the orginal poster. The line about DM being 5'5" was used in one case vebatim. It must be a planned PR resonse because how many people would know his exact height.
If you run into that, remind them that Stalin was 5'2'.

The Anabaptist Jacques

How tall would you say the crates he's standing on are?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/2557164024_2e707e1a59_b.jpg

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

To say that these people are fragile is , well assuming a little much, It is the reverse these people are hard to crack (unless you the right buttons to push) and as for the Sea org, I shit you not they are some of the toughest hard core storm troopers you will ever come across, they can stand up to some of the harshest, most demeaning and humilating shit anyone can dish out( I know because I was one)
So if you think this DM scandal is the end, Nope not buying.
We as Exs, Anons,Free zoners and everyone else have to Keep up the Pressure and a good place to start is to cut the money lines, Remove the public (with their money) only those that want to, but their numbers are swelling, so even with the storm troopers from hell, if they dont have the bullets( MONEY)they cant continue to fight and then you have Pwnage :shithitfan:

I don't think these people are tough. They may not crack, but they cower much more than an average person would. Most people, I think, would just give him the finger or fight back or at least walk out.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[sandygirl]

:yes: Lou, me too!! I had nagging doubts for years but chalked it up to my "False Purpose" case!! When the LMP scandel came out on the news, we had a briefing to give us the "true data". We were told the bruises and injuries she died with were from the car accident she was in. I TOTALLY believed the missionaires and I didn't follow the case too closely.

It is a well know, non-spoken, agreement in Scio land to see, hear, and speak NO entheta (from the press, others, etc.)

I have family still in and I shudder to think what their take on this is. Believe me, the subject WON'T be raised as we are at the "agree to disagree" stage.

I'm sure "spin control" is being done as we speak and the missions will be firing out to the orgs. to get out the "true data" and ask for major bucks to combat this latest attack of the SPs!!!

[La La Lou Lou]

Sandy girl, you could be very right, the IAS regges will be working overtime, (as if there was such a concept in the SO).

This is not the end yet, but it's a damn good shake of the temple walls!

We will win through!:yes:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I don't think these people are tough. They may not crack, but they cower much more than an average person would. Most people, I think, would just give him the finger or fight back or at least walk out.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Tough is probably not the right word to describe them, they are survivors in a similar manner to that of an abused child or slave of any other kind. Unfortunately for them the indoctrination is usually far more sever because the Sea Org has to overcome the illusion of their slaves having an open door to walk out of at at time, where other slave owners simply used shackles on their legs and opposed to shackles on their mind.

[Good twin]

SandyGirl is absolutely right. Scientologists will be briefed and they will all sound like the robots that they are when responding to the "news". I went to the LMP briefings too. It never occurred to me that there was any possibility of truth in the media spin and lack of truth in our OSA briefings. We were called in and made to feel special because we would be given the actual facts. Those facts included the data that the newspapers were lying, the doctors were lying and the government officials were of course lying. As a Scientologist this makes absolute sense.

When you are a Scientologists it doesn't seem unusual or strange or outpointy that your response to sincere questions always sound like you are parroting a reference. As a matter of fact it's a source of pride and you kind of show off that you "know the right answer". You forget to turn this off when talking to wogs. Life isn't a starrate checkout, but Scientologists who have been properly briefed will answer questions exactly correctly and without comm lag.

[La La Lou Lou]

They are not tough theve just given up.

Theyre like the Nazi Victims who dug their own graves and waited for the bullet. I was RPF'd I know that I could have walked out, I knew it was the only sane answer, I still couldnt, and if I was told to lie down in my own crap and die, it was the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, I would have done it.

The death camps were far worse, I know, but it's the same mechanism. Broken beings will do as theyre told. Slave dealers did it with proud Cheiftains, right throughout history. Stalin did it, Hitler did it, it's a totalitarian practice, and it's fucking wrong! It certainly not the way to total freedom:no:

[skydog]

The scientologists response does not surprise me. The believability of any allegation depends upon the credibility of the witnesses offering testimony. Scientologists believe Tommy Davis and David Miscavige.

In Miscavige's letter to the SPTimes, he tells them he will destroy the credibility of these defectors. Presumably, this was a reference to the earlier statements made by Rinder etc. that they were never beaten up by the midget. (I can call him a midget because I am shorter than him.)

The fact that witnesses have said contrary things in the past is a factor that affects their credibility. It is, however, just one of many factors that bear upon that person's credibility. Miscavige and Davis seem to believe that because they have consistently denied these allegations, their version is the truth. However, repeating a lie ten times does not transform it into the truth.

In legal proceedings all over the United States, witnesses will testify to one fact and, in many cases, will be confronted with prior statements or actions which are inconsistent with their present testimony. The fact finder (judge or jury) wants to know why the change and which version is the truth. An impartial arbiter will look at all the evidence and make a determination. A biased witness will simply accept the version that is in conformance with their world view.

IMHO, Miscavige and Davis are preaching to the choir at this point. The indoctrinated scientologists will blindly accept the party line. When Davis went ballistic on tape, he was the one that looked psychotic, not Rinder, Rathburn, Scobee, or De Voght. The picture of Miscavige in the Times makes him look like the mad dog, not the "gentle soul" to the rest of the world.

Scientology is losing the war. The case in France is not going well for them. The media is not afraid of them as was witnessed by this and the earlier reports from Nathan Baca and the Portland, OR expose. The "tech" they use to fight this suppression, if it works, is being directed back at them with far better success.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Scientology is losing the war. The case in France is not going well for them. The media is not afraid of them as was witnessed by this and the earlier reports from Nathan Baca and the Portland, OR expose. The "tech" they use to fight this suppression, if it works, is being directed back at them with far better success.

The practice of Hubbard's tech has created a grass roots movement of internet enthusiasts who have turned exposing Hubbard into a hobby. The cult will not be able to shakedown their members for enough money to stop the carnage anymore, it has gone beyond the tipping point. The main interest in Scientology these days is to be entertained by it's train wreck.

[Tiger Lily]

I had doubts for donkeys years, you learn never to vocalise them, they will be discussing this and it will be stored, it will be held, next time they hear the name McPherson, or see pictures of captives at int, or see a sea org member having their face ripped off it will add to the pile of stuff they know. Eventually it will force its way through the propaganda and lies and they will realise, not a blinding cognition, just slowly get the ballance right.

The war isnt over, its just begun. But its a brilliant start.

The truth will win in the end.

A lot of the information Ive read on this site I did know when I was in, but it didnt overballance the bullshit till after Id blown!

Be patient my presciouses!

Definitely! :goodposting:

-TL

[HelluvaHoax!]

SandyGirl is absolutely right. Scientologists will be briefed and they will all sound like the robots that they are when responding to the "news". I went to the LMP briefings too. It never occurred to me that there was any possibility of truth in the media spin and lack of truth in our OSA briefings. We were called in and made to feel special because we would be given the actual facts. Those facts included the data that the newspapers were lying, the doctors were lying and the government officials were of course lying. As a Scientologist this makes absolute sense.

When you are a Scientologists it doesn't seem unusual or strange or outpointy that your response to sincere questions always sound like you are parroting a reference. As a matter of fact it's a source of pride and you kind of show off that you "know the right answer". You forget to turn this off when talking to wogs. Life isn't a starrate checkout, but Scientologists who have been properly briefed will answer questions exactly correctly and without comm lag.

Brilliant!

(I had plenty more accolades for your post, but was afraid of being flunked for com lag if I didn't blurt out a super-fast tone 40 answer. )

[Kookaburra]

Does anyone know if most Scientologists know that Rinder and Rathbun are out, or has this not been told them because it is "entheta"? :unsure:

[Panda Termint]

It's not known about amongst rank and file members here, they disbelieve it when first told.
That's where the St Pete Times links come into their own.
PS: methinks there will have to be a shore-story put out about it soon. :)

[HelluvaHoax!]

I had the same response as the orginal poster. The line about DM being 5'5" was used in one case vebatim. It must be a planned PR resonse because how many people would know his exact height.
If you run into that, remind them that Stalin was 5'2'.

The Anabaptist Jacques

After reading the lies of the newspaper, I got briefed on the facts, that Miscavige was only 5'5". Much to my own shame, I was still in Doubt about whether a person that small was incapable of violence. So, naturally, I applied Ron's tech and did the Doubt formula.

When OSA informed me honestly without bias as to Mr. Miscavige's actual intentions (to help poor, helpless, injured sparrows and, obviously, all life forms) it was such a win! I knew then and there that COB's intentions were super-theta and HE was not the one attacking others, HE was was being attacked because he was expanding so much.

If you pull in any entheta about COB, you need to immediately get false data stripped and get started on your amends project. Thank God (and Ron and COB) for the chance they are giving us to make up the damage we did by allowing the SPs to attack Mr. Miscavige in the first place!!

[Spirited]

I spoke to a friend the other day that didn't know they were out. nor did they know that Ronnie miscavage was out. they thought he may just be off doing a different post.
They also thought that Ed Int was still running the show on the orgs front. that was because of the fact that he still speaks at events.

Yes IMO It would be classed as entheta to pass on the data that they are all gone and that guillaume is in SP hall.

[FinallyFree]

Does anyone know if most Scientologists know that Rinder and Rathbun are out, or has this not been told them because it is "entheta"? :unsure:

My sis didn't know. She was very surprised. She asked for the link, which I sent and haven't heard back from her yet. (she ONLY just heard Ronnie Miscavige left and was telling me how suprised she was at THAT - so I said, well there are two more that would surprise you....)

I just got in touch w/ an old friend from my staff days. She has been 'out' for 2 months now. She knows the stories are true because her sister who is/was at Hemet confirmed the stories first hand. This same friend told me that there are many, many people who are only pretending to be 'cool' w/ scn while privately being very, very *done* w/ scn. The fear is the disconnection so they say nothing. She said she personally knew of at least 20 people who felt this way but were maintaining the facade.

[Zephyr]

Have you spoken to any Scientologists about the electrifying whistle-blower expose in the SP Times? I have.

This afternoon I had a long conversation with a SCN who was down at Flag. Near the end, when they felt very comfortable, I casually asked what they thought about those St. Pete Times articles.

This is a very intelligent and loving person, someone I am related to, that I got into Scn decades ago. In essence they emphatically said that is was "completely crazy!"

They went into some detail about how the purpose of the article was to attack and harm Scientology. The proof of that (supposedly) was that nothing bad was said about Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard; the only purpose was to attack David Miscavige.

The person I was speaking to knows I have not been active in a very long time. They do not know that I am am of like mind to the people they said were "just crazy!"

I very lightly asked them if they thought there was any possibility that any of it (DM brutalizing his juniors) could be true.............

They went back to repeating how "completely crazy" all this was. Then, most unexpectedly a grenade went off . They described in loving terms what a wonderful man Miscavige is: "He is such a gentle soul" (they actually said that).

Then in rapid fire, they proved that it cannot be true that he attacked all these people because, besides being such a good man, he couldn't have done all that violence because he is only 5 feet five inches tall. (seriously, I did not make this up)

HAVE YOU ASKED A SCIENTOLOGIST WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT THIS EPIC PR FLAP? It was a complete shock and revelation to me that this wonderful person I have known my entire life could have such a pitifully delusional view of reality. I was having a live conversation with a person who was actually asleep! It was disturbing and sad to realize the profound depths of unawareness that my friend had descended to at the hands of scn tech and propaganda.

(coda: Hubbard's highest technical achievement was the "discovery" of "dormant thetans" which get exorcised on OT III, IV, V, VI and VII. He didn't mention that his church also guaranteed that YOU would become a dormant thetan in the process)

HH,

Peter Warren defined "Shore Story" for me on the docks of Setubal, Portugal, in 1970. I was there with Ron Strauss, Hugh Harrison, Murdock McBride and Decki Lee Moate, all new recruits, waiting for the sea sled to pick us up and take us out to the Apollo, at anchor in the Harbor.

My thought then was that "Shore Story" was a real slick definition of a "lie" and I'd never forget it.

And Miscaviage has a shore story that seems to garner sympathy...

About the state of your friends -- I can't help remembering when I was there and also, every one else who was in at the time. Reading your post, HH, gave me a glimpse of how "dormant" I had become as a true believer. Thank the Great Spirit I can see the difference.

Do you see it that way or was I just really into it?

And it brings up another Q... Is it possible to get something out of "Hubbard's Tech" without going dormant to life and truth?

Rob

[Free to shine]

It was a complete shock and revelation to me that this wonderful person I have known my entire life could have such a pitifully delusional view of reality. I was having a live conversation with a person who was actually asleep! It was disturbing and sad to realize the profound depths of unawareness that my friend had descended to at the hands of scn tech and propaganda.



Someone who read my story asked me "have you written it up for the church?" :duh: Though of course there was the added comment I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard..."That was the past, it's different now".

[Alanzo]

I think it's important to get in as many conversations about this with as many Scientologists and Exes as you know.

These guys need personal contact on this. Many will not seek the information out themselves.

They need facts like this, which can easily be proven, to jar them from their sleep-walking.

Then, when exposed to the TWO SIDES: the wog version and the Church version, they can see for themselves who is lying.

Sure, many will take years more to wake up.

But many will wake up very quickly.

Call, email, write, to every Scientologist you know and tell them about Rinder and Rathbun, and Ronnie Miscavige - and Jenna Miscavige, too.

Don't worry if it doesn't produce a hugely dramatic effect right before your very eyes. It is very unlikely to do that because they will be on their guard with you, as they are trained to do.

But in their own private moments, they will think.

And, despite what L Ron Hubbard told you, thinking is good! :thumbsup:

[Alanzo]

Someone who read my story asked me "have you written it up for the church?" :duh: Though of course there was the added comment I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard..."That was the past, it's different now".

I can remember being on Beliefnet, writing about everything that happened to me, including being fired, being followed by PIs, and OSA threatening my family.

Scientologists at the time told me that I was not taking responsibility for what happened because I had not written it up to the Church. They had all kinds of trained-in responses to the data I was presenting.

Here's the thing, though: some - maybe even most - of those very people are members here today.

That was just their trained-in response to me. It wore out. Because they were intelligent and willing and able to seek the truth for themselves. And because they were on Beliefnet and developing the habit of seeking out the information for themselves, instead of letting the Church force-feed them everything, they were creating a chance for themselves.

If a Scientologist is never confronted with the information, they never have a chance.

So what if they have completely stupid come-backs? Expect it.

But get them the information they need.

It's step one of the process to end all processing.

[NeXTep]

Thanks HH for this post and letting us know your experience. I myself have no contacts with Scienos anymore, nor do I have family in. My family (who all were in) left years before I had the leaving cognition. :)

In any case you did approach them gently with the subject, yet there was no TA movement so to say.

However my guess is that everyone will get out as soon as he has the leaving cognition. A forceful disband like it would be if there was govt intervention is not necessarily a healing experience for those in. Most of them will be stuck at a loss for years to come, thinking their church was destroyed by the evil SPs out there.

[Challenge]

Sandy girl, you could be very right, the IAS regges will be working overtime, (as if there was such a concept in the SO).

This is not the end yet, but it's a damn good shake of the temple walls!

We will win through!:yes:

They certainly are! I got called by Sandy at AOLA Tuesday nite. Can you believe it? 26 years out, 5 homes in 3 States after I left, and they found me.
Sandy and I spoke for about an hour. We were both on our 'social' good behavior. She sounded like a nice chick, and she told me that she liked me. Bwahaha.
She told me that a lot of people had left the church in the late 70s and early 80s, and that many of them were coming back. I told her that many of them were also leaving, that Marty and Mike had left and were being interviewed and quoted in the St Pete Times. Her response was that a few "little people" were trying to bring the church down, thwt the church had been controversial since the 70s, and that the SPT story was nothing to worry about. She believed it.
She gave a long, involved rap about the Basics, and what was on each part of them and so forth. She was good. She never asked me to buy them, I'll give her credit for that. I think she twigged that I was a GD suppressive person. I haven't had a follow-up call.
O. She asked me why I had left the church, so I told her the David Voorhies story. She was speechless for a minit, and then said that Gary Jacobs wasn't there any more. I guess that was supposed to handle it.
well...whatever.
I personally don't believe that what we have seen ( so far) of Marty Mark Rathbun and/or Mike Rinder is going to hurt those that are "in". Hopefully, it will keep some people from signing up.
I think that Tory has done more to inform current members and the public of the abuses in the church that M&M combined.

Chlng

[Zinjifar]

The M&M Show was mostly valuable as a *confirmation* of already reported fact. Very little 'new', but, as confirmation it was good.

Of course, Marty's confession to obstruction of justice and evidence tampering was pretty cool, but, so far nobody's actually wanting to deal with it, despite the bogus nature of the 'statute of limitations' claim.

Zinj

[FlunkedForLaughing]

I can understand a Scientologist believing the church's viewpoint. They are trained to not think for themselves or ask questions about what's going on. To a Scn, it's hard to imagine there could be such evil connected to a subject that is supposed to be so good.

I joined Scn a few months before the TIME magazine article came out in the early 1990's. I remember reading it and thinking it must be all just lies because that's what the mission holder said. I also had some good first experiences with Scn, so I never questioned it again until the Anon protests started in 2008. I then did my own research online and got the real facts, but it took that long for me to think for myself. Until that time I just tuned out any bad information I came across.

FFL

[Zinjifar]

And now you can get a 'pass' for giggling :)

Zinj

[HolyCow]

Externally, I think exposure will help dry up any new cash cows.
Internally, those still left by now won't hear much of it, and those that do will still be mentally insulated.

Internally, though, it will be each person's personal experiences that will do it, if at all. But as I mentioned on another thread, anyone still in at this point will probably need professional help and professional deprogramming.

Since it's all about money, the money well drying up is what will cause it to dismantle. :yes:

[uniquemand]

I wish I knew the ins and outs of the law, when I ponder this one. I really think that you can only do involuntary deprogramming of a person if they are found to be committed to a philosophy and course of action which are demonstrably against the law, or specifically dangerous to themselves or others. While I would agee that the Church of Scientology is committed to abusing people and taking their money, I'm not sure that you could prove any person who was a Scientologist necessarily represented a danger to themselves or others, or had it planned to commit some type of crime. However, there are statements in some policies which could be read (and are) as instructions to infiltrate and destroy any agency (government or business) specifically determined to oppose or dismantle the Church of Scientology. To the extent that a Scientologist swore himself absolutely to the Church (say, for a billion years or so), it could be assumed that they would follow these instructions, and are therefore parties to a conspiracy after the fact. This would be extremely difficult to accomplish, and vulnerable, as a policy, because of the litigiousness of the Church and the frailty of public WILL.

[HelluvaHoax!]

HH,

Peter Warren defined "Shore Story" for me on the docks of Setubal, Portugal, in 1970. I was there with Ron Strauss, Hugh Harrison, Murdock McBride and Decki Lee Moate, all new recruits, waiting for the sea sled to pick us up and take us out to the Apollo, at anchor in the Harbor.

My thought then was that "Shore Story" was a real slick definition of a "lie" and I'd never forget it.

And Miscaviage has a shore story that seems to garner sympathy...

About the state of your friends -- I can't help remembering when I was there and also, every one else who was in at the time. Reading your post, HH, gave me a glimpse of how "dormant" I had become as a true believer. Thank the Great Spirit I can see the difference.

Do you see it that way or was I just really into it?

And it brings up another Q... Is it possible to get something out of "Hubbard's Tech" without going dormant to life and truth?

Rob

Interesting questions!

For me, Scientology can best be understood as a Theme Park, like Disneyland. Theme parks are meant to be entertaining. When you first enter ScientologyWorld, there are some decent introductory rides.

However, the main rides get very serious and freaky-weird. Then you find out that this theme park is NOT for entertainment, but a "deadly serious" non-amusement park where the eternal salvation of every enslaved human being being is at stake. If you were looking for the world's scariest rollercoaster and found ScientologyWorld, it would certainly serve.

Not so much fun, but still quite entertaining. Wayyyy scarier than a 2 hour sci-fi horror movie! You aren't merely watching a movie, you're IN it!

About now, you start to wonder if it's time to call it a day and then you discover that unreasonable "ethics officers" are posted at all the exits to "handle people" who wish to "blow" (go home). Any who manage to escape are hunted down or ruined with "declares", "litigation", "fair game" and "disconnection" in order to discourage others from trying that hopeless stunt.

You really do get a whole of a lot of funky adventure from this theme-park-from-hell, but just not the kind you expected or paid for.

So, the question du jour is: Do you necessarily have to become a dormant human being to remain in ScientologyWorld?

Answer: Yes. Dreams only happen while you are asleep. If any kind of alarm goes off, you wake up and walk out.

[Alanzo]

I wish I knew the ins and outs of the law, when I ponder this one. I really think that you can only do involuntary deprogramming of a person if they are found to be committed to a philosophy and course of action which are demonstrably against the law, or specifically dangerous to themselves or others. While I would agee that the Church of Scientology is committed to abusing people and taking their money, I'm not sure that you could prove any person who was a Scientologist necessarily represented a danger to themselves or others, or had it planned to commit some type of crime. However, there are statements in some policies which could be read (and are) as instructions to infiltrate and destroy any agency (government or business) specifically determined to oppose or dismantle the Church of Scientology. To the extent that a Scientologist swore himself absolutely to the Church (say, for a billion years or so), it could be assumed that they would follow these instructions, and are therefore parties to a conspiracy after the fact. This would be extremely difficult to accomplish, and vulnerable, as a policy, because of the litigiousness of the Church and the frailty of public WILL.

I'm not for forcible deprogramming under any circumstances.

LRH forcibly deprogrammed Scientologists from the real world.

There is no need to return the favor.

[Voltaire's Child]

Scn'ists are heavily indoctrinated about critics and ex members to the point where they actually indoctrinate themselves. Hubbard was conspiracy oriented and said a number of times that suppressives wanted to bring Scn down. So they tend to have a siege mentality.

Those who don't are, IMO, on their way out.

[Wants2Talk]

To Uniquemaid

Could the line of reasoning you lay out be used to deny citizenship to Sea Org members?

After all, they are more loyal to s.o. than u.s.

[Alanzo]

Interesting questions!

For me, Scientology can best be understood as a Theme Park, like Disneyland. Theme parks are meant to be entertaining. When you first enter ScientologyWorld, there are some decent introductory rides.

However, the main rides get very serious and freaky-weird. Then you find out that this theme park is NOT for entertainment, but a "deadly serious" non-amusement park where the eternal salvation of every enslaved human being being is at stake. If you were looking for the world's scariest rollercoaster and found ScientologyWorld, it would certainly serve.

Not so much fun, but still quite entertaining. Wayyyy scarier than a 2 hour sci-fi horror movie! You aren't merely watching a movie, you're IN it!

About now, you start to wonder if it's time to call it a day and then you discover that unreasonable "ethics officers" are posted at all the exits to "handle people" who wish to "blow" (go home). Any who manage to escape are hunted down or ruined with "declares", "litigation", "fair game" and "disconnection" in order to discourage others from trying that hopeless stunt.

You really do get a whole of a lot of funky adventure from this theme-park-from-hell, but just not the kind you expected or paid for.

So, the question du jour is: Do you necessarily have to become a dormant human being to remain in ScientologyWorld?

Answer: Yes. Dreams only happen while you are asleep. If any kind of alarm goes off, you wake up and walk out.

This is a fantastic idea for a screenplay.

"ScientologyWorld"

It's the "happiest place on Earth"! Take your kids, have fun for a day!

Then, here, read this pamphlet.

Now that you have read this pamphlet, you KNOW. And that responsibility that you now have of KNOWING means that all mankind will suffer if you do not STAY.

So you handle your kids and your wife to stay. You move into some dorms they have on the property that were not in the brochure.

And now it is your job to ensure that anyone who comes in those gates, understand the SERIOUNESS that ScientologyWorld stays viable.

Some rides crash, killing everyone on board. You quickly cover it up because "if this got out, our enemies would have a Field Day!"

So you hush up all the code violations and the criminal acts on the people who happen to stray into the gates of "ScientologyWord".

Drama ensues.

You finally wait at the gates of the dorms for the security guard to let a car leave, and you MAKE a BREAK FOR IT - leaving your wife and kids behind.

Because ScientologyWorld is the Happiest Place on Earth!

I like it! :thumbsup:

[clamicide]

This is a fantastic idea for a screenplay.

"ScientologyWorld"

It's the "happiest place on Earth"! Take your kids, have fun for a day!

Then, here, read this pamphlet.

Now that you have read this pamphlet, you KNOW. And that responsibility that you now have of KNOWING means that all mankind will suffer if you do not STAY.

So you handle your kids and your wife to stay. You move into some dorms they have on the property that were not in the brochure.

And now it is your job to ensure that anyone who comes in those gates, understand the SERIOUNESS that ScientologyWorld stays viable.

Some rides crash, killing everyone on board. You quickly cover it up because "if this got out, our enemies would have a Field Day!"

So you hush up all the code violations and the criminal acts on the people who happen to stray into the gates of "ScientologyWord".

Drama ensues.

You finally wait at the gates of the dorms for the security guard to let a car leave, and you MAKE a BREAK FOR IT - leaving your wife and kids behind.

Because ScientologyWorld is the Happiest Place on Earth!

I like it! :thumbsup:

Ooh yeah....sorta reminds me of Dream Park by Niven and Barnes. Of course, I've been into that sort of thing ever since I got addicted to a late-night showing of "Futureworld" when I was a kid. Still gotta catch it when it crosses the airways. Anyone wanna rip off DMs face and see what's underneath? Ronbot2000? Methinks you guys are onto something....

[Good twin]

Brilliant!

(I had plenty more accolades for your post, but was afraid of being flunked for com lag if I didn't blurt out a super-fast tone 40 answer. )

:lol:

[Lulu Belle]

T
O. She asked me why I had left the church, so I told her the David Voorhies story. She was speechless for a minit, and then said that Gary Jacobs wasn't there any more. I guess that was supposed to handle it.

Gary Jacobs is gone? :ohmy:

OMG, he's been there forever.

What happened with him?

[CornPie]

...For me, Scientology can best be understood as a Theme Park, like Disneyland...

...Theme parks are meant to be entertaining...
...When you first enter ScientologyWorld, there are some decent introductory rides....
...However, the main rides get very serious and freaky-weird...
...Then you find out that this theme park is NOT for entertainment,...
...but a "deadly serious" non-amusement park where the eternal salvation...
...of every enslaved human being being is at stake...
...If you were looking for the world's scariest rollercoaster and found ScientologyWorld, it would certainly serve...

...Not so much fun, but still quite entertaining...
...Wayyyy scarier than a 2 hour sci-fi horror movie!...
...You aren't merely watching a movie, you're IN it!...
...About now, you start to wonder if it's time to call it a day and...
...then you discover that unreasonable "ethics officers" are posted at all the exits to "handle people" who wish to "blow" (go home)....

...Any who manage to escape are hunted down or ruined with "declares", "litigation", "fair game" and "disconnection"...

...in order to discourage others from trying that hopeless stunt...
...You really do get a whole of a lot of funky adventure from this theme-park-from-hell,...
...but just not the kind you expected or paid for...
...So, the question du jour is: Do you necessarily have to become a dormant human being to remain in ScientologyWorld?...

...Answer: Yes. Dreams only happen while you are asleep. If any kind of alarm goes off, you wake up and walk out.
"scientologyWorld -- the Theme Park From Hell" by HelluvaHoax, quoted above, it's one of the 10 greatest ESMB posts (from post #38 of this thread)

I will carry it on a bit further -- "The Internet Merchant From Hell (who I suspect was a scientologist)"

A few years after getting "out" of scientology, I came across a merchant on the Internet who I wanted to do business with. As always, I did a "whois" on their web site, and I knew they were within a 50 mile radius of Clearwater, Florida, home of so many scientoligists (Of course I realize this is no "proof" that they were a scientologist.) But everything looked legitimate.

Immediately after I entered my debit card number, I realized they clearly overcharged the amount, from that which was stated on their web site. They acted like f***ing scientologists when I tried to get them to reverse it -- like they were entitled to overcharge me -- like it was all my fault for not putting up with it. I had my bank reverse the debit card charge, then the company black-PR'd me to the bank -- they knew the name of the bank because they previously, and un-necessairly collected in on their initial order entry form. In other words, they entered this relationship with ill intent. After I reversed the charge with my bank, the merchant continually hounded me relentlessly with communications, just like L ron hubbard-Ass taught scientologists to do. I had not experienced anything like that since leaving scientology. Incidentally my bank became hostile to deal with after that, and I ended up closing the account.
-----------------------
My recommendation, if you're going to buy from an "unknown" on the Internet, especially one anywhere Clearwater, first do a google for, "CompanyName.com sucks". Had I done so I would have seen hundreds of entries for this company.

Also, if they stink like scientology whatsoever, do not deal with them, you "may" be sorry when you want to leave them. I don't think all scientology companies follow all of hubbard-Ass's policies, but you never know who the f***heads are going to be.
-----------------------
Below is an excerpt from a post I entered on March 20, 2009.

My post #46 of this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=10019
----------------------- beginning of excerpt
In rare cases an Internet order entry form will prompt for the name of the financial institution who issued the debit/credit card to me. Know that merchants are not required to have this information to submit their charges, so you might wonder why they're asking for it. On one occasion, after I had provided this information, and the typical debit/credit card details, the merchant clearly overcharged my debit/credit card. I have never encountered such a flagrant online ordering issue before. Despite my attempts to resolve the situation, they refused to adjust the charge to match their web site. In order to get my money back, I had to dispute the charge with my bank. The merchant then launched a scientology-like black PR campaign against me at my bank. Their campaign was effective too, and I ended up closing that bank account. From that point forward, my policy has been to; a) never provide the name of my financial institution, b) refuse to deal with any merchant that wants to know it, without exception. Amazing but true, this merchant embarks upon all of their customer relationships with an ill motive, they intentionally overcharged my debit/credit card, and even collected the name of my financial institution in advance, so they could use it later to launch a black PR campaign against me, just in case I wouldn't put up with their fraud. Incidentally, the web site was located within a close proximity of Clearwater, Florida, the home of many scientology organizations. And scientology is well know for their black PR assaults.

Whether or not the name and address of the merchant appears on the web site, I always do an Internet "whois" to see who the domain name is registered to. Because it's my business to know who I'm dealing with. If they are located within a 50 mile radius of Clearwater, Florida -- I play the odds, by calling strike one. Sometimes I call the company, and engage in a short conversation, in an effort to determine if they speak scientology-eese, and if so, I politely say goodbye, but I won't deal with them.
----------------------- end of excerpt

[HelluvaHoax!]

"ScientologyWorld" It's the "happiest place on Earth"! Take your kids, have fun for a day!

Then, here, read this pamphlet.

Now that you have read this pamphlet, you KNOW. And that responsibility that you now have of KNOWING means that all mankind will suffer if you do not STAY.
:

love that!

the witch doctor performs the incantation (ksw)
a spell is cast on you!
too late...
you can't shake this mojo loose...
your life is no longer your own...
you are a tool...
it's sorcery!
black magic!
voodoo!
kiss your free-will goobye, sucker...
cuz
you are now
owned by
the church of scientology
Pay & Obey!
(or die, DB, die!)

[Illegal Alien]

Your friends do have a point regarding Marty and company only looking to attack Miscavige, that is pretty much all I saw them doing too, but as far as the rest of their insanity goes, it's not surprising at all. We have people here using the same mentality when it comes to protecting Hubbard. This is exactly what Hubbard's tech was designed to do. Hubbard's tech was designed to free you of all critical, rational, and objective thought regarding Hubbard and anything associated with his totalitarian movement. It's very difficult to get brainwashed people to face reality, especially when they are still addicted to the hypnotic mind melting trance Hubbard's auditing was designed to create.

That's exactly right. Audited out is the ability to ACTUALLY look and compare datums. You must only look at datums in the bubble of Scientology (everything outside is bad) or you will get:whipped:

[Ladybird]

David Miscavige is NOT 5 foot 5 inches tall. (5'5') I am 5 foot 6 inches and I tower over the dainty dwarf. He might be 5'5" in his special Italian made 2 thousand dollar shoes, but even then when he was trying to get in my face he barely came up to my nipples.

I weighed about 100 pounds then and David Miscavige made me feel like a moose. David Miscavige is a tiny little tyrant. I shoulda stepped on him right then.

[Iknowtoomuch]

David Miscavige is NOT 5 foot 5 inches tall. (5'5') I am 5 foot 6 inches and I tower over the dainty dwarf. He might be 5'5" in his special Italian made 2 thousand dollar shoes, but even then when he was trying to get in my face he barely came up to my nipples.

I weighed about 100 pounds then and David Miscavige made me feel like a moose. David Miscavige is a tiny little tyrant. I shoulda stepped on him right then.




Pictures please.



:D

[degraded being]

When I was in I did notice outpoints. Such as an OT 7 who came back from flag (staff training) looked very obviously like she had a bad time there.
She was a smart, competent person. BUt she was tight lipped about her training and just always "bad indicators" about it. I knew she was sitting on something. Another OT 7 had come back some time earlier and had made a poster to promote a service or something in the org. It was an amazingly agressive image. It used to startle people. Not as in eye-catching but AGGRESSIVE. Just a small thing, but the person explained it as
how they are at Flag. She thought it was OK. So, with little things like that,
plus heavy orders down from above people do get a sense of how something is way over at FLAG/ sea org command posts in the USA.

If I had read the M&M show then, I would have immeadiately gone to the internet because M&M would have confirmed that those hints that things at the top were wonky. I'm sure there are lots and lots of people for whom the M&M show will be a signal that "yes" they better just take a little peek and see what else is there. There are many degrees of brainwashing. They are not all so brainwashed that they will never look at anything

[Kookaburra]

Does anyone know if most Scientologists know that Rinder and Rathbun are out, or has this not been told them because it is "entheta"? :unsure:


It's not known about amongst rank and file members here, they disbelieve it when first told.
That's where the St Pete Times links come into their own.
PS: methinks there will have to be a shore-story put out about it soon. :)


My sis didn't know. She was very surprised. She asked for the link, which I sent and haven't heard back from her yet. (she ONLY just heard Ronnie Miscavige left and was telling me how suprised she was at THAT - so I said, well there are two more that would surprise you....)

I just got in touch w/ an old friend from my staff days. She has been 'out' for 2 months now. She knows the stories are true because her sister who is/was at Hemet confirmed the stories first hand. This same friend told me that there are many, many people who are only pretending to be 'cool' w/ scn while privately being very, very *done* w/ scn. The fear is the disconnection so they say nothing. She said she personally knew of at least 20 people who felt this way but were maintaining the facade.

This is extremely good information. Scientologists can be directed to an interview by Rathburn, Rinder, and Tommy Davis then. We wouldn't want them to miss that wonderful rebuttal, would we? :D

[Bea Kiddo]

This is extremely good information. Scientologists can be directed to an interview by Rathburn, Rinder, and Tommy Davis then. We wouldn't want them to miss that wonderful rebuttal, would we? :D

The funny thing is the rebuttal proves their behavior! Footbullets! It's maybe even better than the interviews with Mark and Marty at showing what it is really like. :thumbsup:

[Kookaburra]

The funny thing is the rebuttal proves their behavior! Footbullets! It's maybe even better than the interviews with Mark and Marty at showing what it is really like. :thumbsup:

Exactly my point! It might even do the job all on its own. :lol:

[CornPie]

Pictures please [of David Miscaviage's height].
At 1:06 (1 minute and 6 seconds) into this video David Miscaviage and Mike Rinder are in the same picture, side by side, briskly walking past each other. Rinder looks roughly 8-10 inches taller to me. However, their bodies were "not" shown from head to foot at the same time, so I wouldn't rule out camera deception.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhZ-kY50J50

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

When the music started as Miscavige introduced Rinder, I was expected this Sea Org anthem to start

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw

[Dulloldfart]

At 1:06 (1 minute and 6 seconds) into this video David Miscaviage and Mike Rinder are in the same picture, side by side, briskly walking past each other. Rinder looks roughly 8-10 inches taller to me. However, their bodies were "not" shown from head to foot at the same time,

Try videos and pix of TC and DM. I believe TC is 5'7".

Paul

[Div6]

This is a fantastic idea for a screenplay.

"ScientologyWorld"

It's the "happiest place on Earth"! Take your kids, have fun for a day!

Then, here, read this pamphlet.

Now that you have read this pamphlet, you KNOW. And that responsibility that you now have of KNOWING means that all mankind will suffer if you do not STAY.

So you handle your kids and your wife to stay. You move into some dorms they have on the property that were not in the brochure.

And now it is your job to ensure that anyone who comes in those gates, understand the SERIOUNESS that ScientologyWorld stays viable.

Some rides crash, killing everyone on board. You quickly cover it up because "if this got out, our enemies would have a Field Day!"

So you hush up all the code violations and the criminal acts on the people who happen to stray into the gates of "ScientologyWord".

Drama ensues.

You finally wait at the gates of the dorms for the security guard to let a car leave, and you MAKE a BREAK FOR IT - leaving your wife and kids behind.

Because ScientologyWorld is the Happiest Place on Earth!

I like it! :thumbsup:

Nicole already did one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s15PvvAt4lo

[sparrow]

I didn't read this entire thread but I get the OP.

I would have asked:

"Why would Rathbun and Rinder lie about this?"

"Why would trusted longtime OT veterans make this up?"

"If they were suppressives, why didn't OT management discover this years ago?"

"What about Tommy Davis admitting that there were repeated attacks by these men in the past? Why weren't they fired or declared suppressives back then? (instead of waiting for them to leave on their own)



That's what I'll be asking! :)

[FinallyFree]

I didn't read this entire thread but I get the OP.

I would have asked:

"Why would Rathbun and Rinder lie about this?"

"Why would trusted longtime OT veterans make this up?"

"If they were suppressives, why didn't OT management discover this years ago?"

"What about Tommy Davis admitting that there were repeated attacks by these men in the past? Why weren't they fired or declared suppressives back then? (instead of waiting for them to leave on their own)



That's what I'll be asking! :)


:yes: VERY good questions. Footbullet, footbullet, footbullet.....

We need a smiley that shoots its foot off! Pronto!

[Challenge]

Gary Jacobs is gone? :ohmy:

OMG, he's been there forever.

What happened with him?

I have no idea. I had read in one of their pubs on here not too long ago that he was at Flag. Sandy was doing her very best to put a good face on. He may or may not have left COS. He may just have been 'fired' to Flag to get something or another.
BTW, Sandy called again yesterday afternoon about 2:30. Her voice was very different in that on the first call she sounded fresh and upbeat and "theta". Yesterday she sounded down tone. We had a very short conversation with my telling her that Spouse and I just HAVE NO INTEREST.

Chlng

[Div6]

I have no idea. I had read in one of their pubs on here not too long ago that he was at Flag. Sandy was doing her very best to put a good face on. He may or may not have left COS. He may just have been 'fired' to Flag to get something or another.
BTW, Sandy called again yesterday afternoon about 2:30. Her voice was very different in that on the first call she sounded fresh and upbeat and "theta". Yesterday she sounded down tone. We had a very short conversation with my telling her that Spouse and I just HAVE NO INTEREST.

Chlng

I imagine they are all pretty beaten down right now. Particuarly since the STATS are a lie. NO Expansion in 20 years leaves a pretty cannabalized field.

[HelluvaHoax!]

I would have asked:


"Why would Rathbun and Rinder lie about this?" Because they are bad, bad, bad people that have always, always, always been liars, liars, liars! Wait! .....except for when they were on senior management posts when they were good, good, good and saying all the true, true, true things about the fastest growing religion in the world.


"Why would trusted longtime OT veterans make this up?" Because they falsely attested to being OTs. A real OT would not make this up.


"If they were suppressives, why didn't OT management discover this years ago?" You really need to look up the word "covert" as in "covert hostility". Ron means what he says!

"
What about Tommy Davis admitting that there were repeated attacks by these men in the past? Why weren't they fired or declared suppressives back then? (instead of waiting for them to leave on their own) When are you going to stop complaining about such minor outpoints and take some responsibility by joining staff or donating much more money?

[Jimmymac]

" When are you going to stop complaining about such minor outpoints and take some responsibility by joining staff or donating much more money? [/QUOTE]

Where do i sign (again)? Do you want my credit card details?

[HelluvaHoax!]

When are you going to stop complaining about such minor outpoints and take some responsibility by joining staff or donating much more money?

quote from JimmyMac: Where do i sign (again)? Do you want my credit card details?


Right now we are offering a very special discount for very special beings. We have removed all the arbitraries!! (hip hip hooray!) Now you can donate all your money, join the Sea Org and STILL have lots of time for your first dynamic!!!! (*)

Remember, a thetan doesn't need MEST.... Give us all your MEST credit cards and we will handle of all that MEST DevT for you!!!

Muster is at 8am tomorrow morning, so that leaves you plenty of time to handle your MEST cycles tonight.

Your post is Senior Spokesman for Scientology Int'l. Based on his incredible power stats recently (and shattering the SP Times!), Tommy Davis has been rush-promoted to join Ron doing advanced research in outer space.

Remember, Ron says that "a thetan has done everything before." So don't Q & A with having to have hatting before you can do. Your target is to clean up all of the bad Public Relations Scn has on the internet and media within one week. (Tommy already handled the SP's and the public now loves us!!! All that's left is minor "mop up", no worries!)

Welcome aboard, matey!

Sincerely Yours,

Deputy Commodore
for
Deputy Buddha
for
Deputy Fife
for
Ron "space jazz" Hubbard

(*) The old billion year contract was a transcriptionist error. It is only a one million year contract, so now you have an extra 999,999,000 years to just party!

[HelluvaHoax!]

Posted by CORNPIE:

"scientologyWorld -- the Theme Park From Hell" by HelluvaHoax, quoted above, it's one of the 10 greatest ESMB posts (from post #38 of this thread)


Thanks! I'm happy to think I contributed anything of value to you or the other fine people at ESMB!

[BAYCB]

At 1:06 (1 minute and 6 seconds) into this video David Miscaviage and Mike Rinder are in the same picture, side by side, briskly walking past each other. Rinder looks roughly 8-10 inches taller to me. However, their bodies were "not" shown from head to foot at the same time, so I wouldn't rule out camera deception.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhZ-kY50J50

If you also compare the planet logo behind them as they speak you can definitely see the difference. Miscaviage is a third below the african continent and Rinder is far above it. I would say your 8 to 10 inches is pretty close.

Ron Minor

[Jimmymac]

At 1:06 (1 minute and 6 seconds) into this video David Miscaviage and Mike Rinder are in the same picture, side by side, briskly walking past each other. Rinder looks roughly 8-10 inches taller to me. However, their bodies were "not" shown from head to foot at the same time, so I wouldn't rule out camera deception.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhZ-kY50J50

I forgot how crappy these events are. It is like a fucking amway convention.

[Zinjifar]

I forgot how crappy these events are. It is like a fucking amway convention.

Amay just wants to clean your toilet. Scientology wants to clean your bank account, while washing your mind.

Thank you Ron! (and, thank you Mike!)

Zinj

[myrklix]

Amay just wants to clean your toilet. Scientology wants to clean your bank account, while washing your mind.


I love it! Can I quote you on this?

[Zinjifar]

I love it! Can I quote you on this?

Unless you start a cult with it.

Zinj

[CornPie]

I forgot how crappy these [scientology televised] events are. It is like a fucking amway convention.
I continue to hear these references to Multi Level Marketing (MLM) Amway type scams, in relation to scientology. And I've heard it a number of times here on ESMB. Can anyone shed some light on this subject of Amway and MLM scams, as it relates to scientology?

Recently I watched a basketball game on TV held in FLORIDA in the AMWAY Arena. And I though, "Holy s***, strike 1 and strike 2."

I made up my mind a long-long time ago that Amway was a scam. I forget all the details, but it would go something like this; I'd be talking with somebody personable, they'd say there was this "great" business opportunity, but wouldn't tell me the name of the company, they'd invite me to their basement, the "reg" would lay a sales pitch on me, tell me about all the money I'd make if I did what they're doing, and oh yeah, they have great detergent. I'd get x% of everything I sell, y% of anything anybody I signed up for sold, z% of their signups, and so on, MLM type s***.

They'd run ads in the help wanted section, and business opportunities section of the local newspaper -- but they would refuse to tell you what it was unless you came over to their place. These days there are health food scams, magic drink formulas, and so on.

Does anybody know the current scoop on this MLM s***? And is there really any relationship to scientology???

[Mick Wenlock]

there is no direct relation to Scientology.

It is the fact that MLMs - especially the AMO's (Amway Motivational Organizations) use cult tactics to keep their members. Keeping them ver very busy, continuous "brainwashing" via a mandatory series of CDs and DVDs, everything about the members life cleared with their "upline", no talking with 'negative people' and so on.

The book "Merchants of Deception" is a free eBook about the AMOs. Definitely worth reading.

[OliviaZero]

David Miscavige is NOT 5 foot 5 inches tall. (5'5') I am 5 foot 6 inches and I tower over the dainty dwarf. He might be 5'5" in his special Italian made 2 thousand dollar shoes, but even then when he was trying to get in my face he barely came up to my nipples.

I weighed about 100 pounds then and David Miscavige made me feel like a moose. David Miscavige is a tiny little tyrant. I shoulda stepped on him right then.

I vote 5'2", *maximum*.

[La La Lou Lou]

I refuse to mention the words Napoleon Complex, that would be so rude, you simply couldnt force me too.:no:

[CornPie]

there is no direct relation [of Amway] to Scientology.

It is the fact that MLMs - especially the AMO's (Amway Motivational Organizations) use cult tactics...
Amway critics use phrases like: free speech suppression, takedown notices, restraining orders, cult tactics, death threat to the author of the book you mentioned. It stinks like scientology "tech" being used to me. The "cult" aspect seemed far fetched to begin with, but where there's smoke, there's fire. I googled, "amway sucks", for lots of hits.

Beware, I suggest having your virus scanner updated if you google the book; "Merchants of Deception". Numerous Multi Level Marketing (MLM) pages seem virus-ish to me.

[Dulloldfart]

The book "Merchants of Deception" is a free eBook about the AMOs. Definitely worth reading.

I just reread that entire book again. I first read it in 2004. This time around I see far more similarities to the CofS than I did then. I'm wondering what I will think if I read it again in 2014.

Oaul

[Mick Wenlock]

Amway critics use phrases like: free speech suppression, takedown notices, restraining orders, cult tactics, death threat to the author of the book you mentioned. It stinks like scientology "tech" being used to me. The "cult" aspect seemed far fetched to begin with, but where there's smoke, there's fire. I googled, "amway sucks", for lots of hits.

If you want to see Cult speak in action with MLMs visit scam.com - as you peruse the threads in the MLM section you will see so many examples that will remind you of Scientology.

Along with Amway the Melaleuca mob are another bunch of head bangers but the list of MLM scams is long and disheartening.

Scientology is the Amway of religion.

[pollywannacracker]

Scn's are taught and drilled to don't look, don't listen when it is applied to Scn. That is why the answer is always NO!:confused2:

Makes me wonder whatever happened to LRH's quote of "look, don't listen". If more current Scn's looked, they would find the truth....:yes:

[Alanzo]

I just reread that entire book again. I first read it in 2004. This time around I see far more similarities to the CofS than I did then. I'm wondering what I will think if I read it again in 2014.

Oaul

"Oaul"?

OAUL????

I've spelled peoples' names wrong before - but never my own!!

:hysterical::hysterical::lol::hysterical::buzzin:: happydance::happydance:

[Dulloldfart]

"Oaul"?

OAUL????

I've spelled peoples' names wrong before - but never my own!!

:hysterical::hysterical::lol::hysterical::buzzin:: happydance::happydance:

From http://www.englishproverbs.org/wise-words/littlethingspleaselittleminds.html:

Proverbial Meaning: Some people are too easily pleased by foolish pleasures.

Literal Origins: The proverb pertains to children, who have undeveloped minds and like to play silly games that have little real meaning to an adult.

Common Usage: This proverb is very well-known and often spoken, usually in a joke-like manner, to adults who appear to be deriving a lot of pleasure from a childish activity.

[Alanzo]

From http://www.englishproverbs.org/wise-words/littlethingspleaselittleminds.html:

Proverbial Meaning: Some people are too easily pleased by foolish pleasures.

Literal Origins: The proverb pertains to children, who have undeveloped minds and like to play silly games that have little real meaning to an adult.

Common Usage: This proverb is very well-known and often spoken, usually in a joke-like manner, to adults who appear to be deriving a lot of pleasure from a childish activity.

Whatever you say, Oual.

And your link isn't spelled right - it doesn't work. :D

[HelluvaHoax!]

Posted By: pollywannacracker

Scn's are taught and drilled to don't look, don't listen when it is applied to Scn. That is why the answer is always NO!

Makes me wonder whatever happened to LRH's quote of "look, don't listen". If more current Scn's looked, they would find the truth....:yes

The explanation that gives me peace of mind is:

The WORDS (philosophy, policy, scriptures...) of scientology are the complete opposite of the PRACTICES of scientology. Examples:

WORDS: "Don't spend money before it's made"
PRACTICE: Crushing pressure to borrow in order to donate

WORDS: "What's true for you is true"
PRACTICE: If you disagree, mandatory sec checking at your expense.

WORDS: "Scientology works 100% of the time"
PRACTICE: No-gain customers are declared Suppressive & punished.

WORDS: "Communication is the universal solvent"
PRACTICE: Disconnection

WORDS: "Justice cannot be trusted in the hands of man"
PRACTICE: Fair Game

WORDS: "Scn is the only game where everyone wins"
PRACTICE: Lisa McPherson.

The list of Scientology's hypocritical deceptions is vast.

If Scientology were an eBay seller, it's negative reviews would scare the living sh*t out of any prospective buyers.