Question about John Travolta and a few others

[justpassingthrough]

Alright, so when reading about scientology, John Travolta's name inevitably shows up among the list of celeb worshipers. However, if i'm not mistaken, I recall John Travolta saying that he really wasn't in the church of scientology and was more of a "free zone" practitioner. In fact, I have heard that he does NOT agree with the way the church is run. If this is the case, why is he lumped in as being associated with the organization. It is my understanding that the difference between the groups is considerable. Is Travolta simply frightened that a smattering of lies and "confessions" will get leaked to the public if he speaks out against the organization in any way shape or form? Furthermore, would the church be stupid enough to attempt to bury one of its most high profile faces? If anyone knows more about this please let me know. If Travolta jumped on the wagon behind Rathbun, a real significant difference could be made, yea?
On a different note, can someone tell me what OT level Marty Rathbun reached?
Also, whatever happened to that guy Dan Murman? I heard somewhere that he was about to leave the group.

[programmer_guy]

Alright, so when reading about scientology, John Travolta's name inevitably shows up among the list of celeb worshipers. However, if i'm not mistaken, I recall John Travolta saying that he really wasn't in the church of scientology and was more of a "free zone" practitioner. In fact, I have heard that he does NOT agree with the way the church is run. If this is the case, why is he lumped in as being associated with the organization. It is my understanding that the difference between the groups is considerable. Is Travolta simply frightened that a smattering of lies and "confessions" will get leaked to the public if he speaks out against the organization in any way shape or form? Furthermore, would the church be stupid enough to attempt to bury one of its most high profile faces? If anyone knows more about this please let me know. If Travolta jumped on the wagon behind Rathbun, a real significant difference could be made, yea?
On a different note, can someone tell me what OT level Marty Rathbun reached?
Also, whatever happened to that guy Dan Murman? I heard somewhere that he was about to leave the group.

Travolta is definitely a long-time Scientologist... not a freezoner. He has always just been a bit more mild-mannered about it compared to how Tom Cruise has been in these later years.

He even came to visit and speak at the Riverside Mission where I was on staff in the 1970s.

[Tiger Lily]

I do believe there was a brief period of time where he got very quiet and admitted being unhappy with management (after LRH died if I remember right). . . but that was "handled" somehow and he's "on board" as far as I can tell.

-TL

[Kookaburra]

I don't think Travolta is exactly "on board". He certainly isn't a freezoner, though. Travolta is not real happy being in but he is trapped. He is married to a "true believer" dedicated ronbot and they have a daughter. If he left scientology they would make sure that he never saw his kid again. So he suffers in silence and does the minimum, at least for the last few years. But he's not being their spokesman any more. I don't think he is still a Scn in his heart. My 2 cents.

[Iknowtoomuch]

When did he say this stuff?:confused2:

[Veda]

This is from a few years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ntjztZBq_A

[La La Lou Lou]

Perhaps there is a whiff of lavender about his marriage?

I know in the states crawling out of the closet doesnt help your exposure as an artiste. Especially after years of public denial, OSA certainly would have a dossier on his misdeeds, blackmail, and the blackmail of losing his family would be good enough reason for him to stay, if he has any past history of gayness, that's only rumour of course!

Does anyone stop watching Cary Grant or not watch a play by Tenessee Williams or any of the very many gay Hollywood icons now that we know about their sexuality? I think not.

[Good twin]

Perhaps there is a whiff of lavender about his marriage?

I know in the states crawling out of the closet doesnt help your exposure as an artiste. Especially after years of public denial, OSA certainly would have a dossier on his misdeeds, blackmail, and the blackmail of losing his family would be good enough reason for him to stay, if he has any past history of gayness, that's only rumour of course!

Does anyone stop watching Cary Grant or not watch a play by Tenessee Williams or any of the very many gay Hollywood icons now that we know about their sexuality? I think not.

OMG are you kidding? Being gay doesn't seem to hurt anyone's career in Hollywood. Being a crazy cult member used to be acceptable as well, but Mr. TC couch jumper changed all that. I'm pretty sure if JT "came out" about being gay and denounced Co$, there would be an outpouring of public support. I doubt if a parents sexuality would be questioned more harshly than a heavily controlling belief system with a custody judge in California.

Maybe he's just not gay. Even if he's not, he'd be better off saying he is and telling all that the cult has been using his gayness to keep him in. Jus sayin.

[OliviaZero]

I just can't believe it would seem worse to have the world know you're gay than to be stuck under the thumb of a dangerous cult. I think many, many people would embrace John in all of his gayness and applaud his escape from the cult (most people I know would, gay and straight, alike). He would not be without a great deal of support.

Being in danger of being disconnected from your young daughter is another matter, though. For her, I would understand why he would be hesitant to make a move. I wish he would go and take her with him.

[La La Lou Lou]

Then the only hold the cult have is the fear that the org might get their overpaid lawyers to back the wife in the fight over the child.

Mind you he could afford equally strong lawyers.

Sod it, JT just go for it!:yes:

[Sassy]

To the contrary, this would be an ideal time for someone like JT to blow; the cult couldn't dare keep him from his daughter because disconnection doesn't exist, right? :thumbsup:
No matter his sexual orientation, it would be pretty embarrasing to come out after all these years. He'd make a fool of his wife and himself. Obviously he loves his wife & daughter, and never mind how he felt about his son. Their life & how they live it works for them. :)

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I just can't believe it would seem worse to have the world know you're gay than to be stuck under the thumb of a dangerous cult. I think many, many people would embrace John in all of his gayness and applaud his escape from the cult (most people I know would, gay and straight, alike). He would not be without a great deal of support.

Being in danger of being disconnected from your young daughter is another matter, though. For her, I would understand why he would be hesitant to make a move. I wish he would go and take her with him.

It really doesn't matter what he said, Scientology and everything it stands for has zero credibility, John Travolta would win the easiest law suit in history if it went before a jury. We all know the management of Scientology are victims of Hubbard's Study Tech, but even they aren't stupid enough to alienate their celebrity marketing meal ticket

[DartSmohen]

As previously stated, in Clearwater in1980, Alex Sibersky, who was John Travolta's auditor told me directly that John had left the cult and Alex was sent to California to "recover" John. The steps taken were to remind John that as long as he was in good standing, any data in his confessional files would remain strictly confidential.

There had been a few "incidents" divulged in session that perhaps John felt ought to remain confidential. After all, John was soaring as a star and could not let anything impede his status.

Seems to have done the trick.

Dart

[La La Lou Lou]

Such caring people!

Who cares what he did, and with whom.

However any videos would sell for a fortune!

[Dulloldfart]

As previously stated, in Clearwater in1980, Alex Sibersky, who was John Travolta's auditor told me directly that John had left the cult and Alex was sent to California to "recover" John. The steps taken were to remind John that as long as he was in good standing, any data in his confessional files would remain strictly confidential.

There had been a few "incidents" divulged in session that perhaps John felt ought to remain confidential. After all, John was soaring as a star and could not let anything impede his status.

Seems to have done the trick.

Dart

I'm not challenging your info, Dart, but what can the cult do if he says sod it and leaves publicly? They CAN'T hold a press conference and say they've got all this damning data from his confessionals and now they're making it public because he's escaped. What can they leak surreptitiously? Put it around that he's gay? People do that anyway, even on ESMB. There are famous photos on the big wide Net of him kissing his kid's male nanny on the lips as well as Kirk Douglas (who was ambushed by JT and shows it).

Maybe Kelly would stick with him after all. I assume there is at least some love holding their marriage together, and he is a much bigger star than she is in her own right.

Paul

[I told you I was trouble]

As previously stated, in Clearwater in1980, Alex Sibersky, who was John Travolta's auditor told me directly that John had left the cult and Alex was sent to California to "recover" John. The steps taken were to remind John that as long as he was in good standing, any data in his confessional files would remain strictly confidential.

There had been a few "incidents" divulged in session that perhaps John felt ought to remain confidential. After all, John was soaring as a star and could not let anything impede his status.

Seems to have done the trick.

Dart


aaah ... that explains a lot (that look in JT's eyes for a start ... he has always looked trapped to me ... and deeply sad).

He never had the 'gleam in the eye' that one is supposed to have in scientology (the one that made us look manic).

:omg:

If he wants to get out now, he will ... the only thing that would be awkward for him is looking like a burke for being involved in the first place ... but Jason managed it and at least JT always looked as if he was there under duress (and was by the sound of it).

His many fans would still love him.

[CornPie]

As previously stated, in Clearwater in1980, Alex Sibersky, who was John Travolta's auditor told me directly that John had left the cult and Alex was sent to California to "recover" John. The steps taken were to remind John that as long as he was in good standing, any data in his confessional files would remain strictly confidential.

There had been a few "incidents" divulged in session that perhaps John felt ought to remain confidential. After all, John was soaring as a star and could not let anything impede his status.

Seems to have done the trick.

Dart
Finally a name, Alex Sibersky, but I think this is hearsay unless Sibersky says it himself. His name is all over the Internet though, declared SP by scientology. There's nothing I could find about him on YouTube though, but I'd sure like to see a video of Alex Sibersky saying it himself. I'm not at all interested in knowing Travolta's secrets, just that scientology blackmailed him with info from his ethics folder in 1980, in order to keep him in the "church" -- if the assertion is true.

[AnonOrange]

Also, whatever happened to that guy Dan Murman? I heard somewhere that he was about to leave the group.

Dan Murman blowing? That'll be the day!

Dan was seen robotically repeating "Scientology works and helps people" in one video from about 3-4 months ago. Hombre (PirateOfAnonymous) has a good video from him, where he stoically stay still while asked questions for a few minutes.

We also heard he had throat cancer, but his voice did not seem affected by it.

Where did you hear about Dan leaving? That would be a MAJOR story and I'm sure M. Bunker would love to have a video chat with him.

[justpassingthrough]

On the topic of sexuality. I know that homosexuality is against Scientology beliefs. However, have there ever been any publicly gay people that are in the group? The church loves to lie about its policies in order to lure more people in, has there ever been a "gay spokesperson" that tries to tell the public that the policy they are talking about is wrong?
Or are they actually adamant about it, but just don't say it directly? I know the catholic church has no qualms about stating their beliefs regarding sexuality but you would think a group that claims to be so free thinking and open wouldnt object to it.

[Whitedove]

aaah ... that explains a lot (that look in JT's eyes for a start ... he has always looked trapped to me ... and deeply sad).

He never had the 'gleam in the eye' that one is supposed to have in scientology (the one that made us look manic).

:omg:

If he wants to get out now, he will ... the only thing that would be awkward for him is looking like a burke for being involved in the first place ... but Jason managed it and at least JT always looked as if he was there under duress (and was by the sound of it).

His many fans would still love him.

No, JT doesnt have that glare stare that most scientologists have. There is something very genuine about him. Yes he is trapped but I love him as a person very much. He is a gentle and caring soul imo.

Its hard to say if he will ever get out. I hope he does. I see the genuity in him. Even with the scientology layers over him. I know I do.
Try to find that in Tom Cruise! :eyeroll:

[AnonOrange]

However, have there ever been any publicly gay people that are in the group? The church loves to lie about its policies in order to lure more people in, has there ever been a "gay spokesperson" that tries to tell the public

David Miscavige, Tom Cruise, John Travolta are the gay spokespersons for the Church. That's the first three that pop in my mind! :D

[alex]

Its funny that "gay" is still in this day and age a pejorative.

[La La Lou Lou]

There is someone who claims that he's openly gay and has never had any problems about it. He comes up if google hard enough. If I can be bothered I'll post a link.

AS I really dont believe a word of it I might not bother.

[La La Lou Lou]

His name is Keith Relkin, and he's from Hollywood, he claims to be a gay activist with the full backing of the church.

He's got a big article if you can be bothered to google him, it's so unbelievable and its on some church PR site. He even quotes from 2d rules as proof that it's OK.

I dont think he was ever in the SO if he really exists.:unsure:




La La

[Terril park]

The world's first Clear was John McMasters, who was Gay. He was also
by repute one of the greatest promoters of scientology, and one of LRH's
research auditors.

I don't believe that there has ever been a policy against gays. There is the quote from SOS, and thats about it best I know. There has been a strong current of disaproval of any sexual activity in COS. And homophobia has not been eliminated in COS.

The "second dynamic rules" PL although on the surface is quite liberal,
also states that anyone who causes people to have upset on the second dynamic are to be fined lots of money. I expect very few declared SPs had to
back then pay as much. To impose fines to a church for less than immpeccable human behaviour on the second dynamic is, 1] authoritarian.
2] doomed to failure, 3] utterly idiotic.

[everfree]

The world's first Clear was John McMasters, who was Gay. He was also
by repute one of the greatest promoters of scientology, and one of LRH's
research auditors.

I don't believe that there has ever been a policy against gays. There is the quote from SOS, and thats about it best I know. There has been a strong current of disaproval of any sexual activity in COS. And homophobia has not been eliminated in COS.


I do believe there is a policy forbidding homosexuals from holding an executive position in the church. Could be wrong, it's been so long now. It could be called "Ethics and Executives"? Can't even recall the exact name let alone the wording, sorry.

[La La Lou Lou]

It rings a bell, I think theres also one called Executive responsibilities, but bugger me, I just cant remember what they said.

Anyone got green volumes?

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I don't know what policy it is, but gays are not allowed on staff. It may not be written policy, but it is de facto policy (the policy which no one talks about). There used to be gays on staff, but not as executives. Then it was discouraged, then it was forbidden.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[La La Lou Lou]

I bet its written somewhere!

Be nice to find it.

[Oblivion]

I bet its written somewhere!

Be nice to find it.

Maybe in a reference about HCO quals??

When I was on a project to find ppl who could go into security I had to look over life history forms (more specifically the 2D part of the form).

Any homosexual history was an out qual. In comparison (here comes the best part)... sex involving animals was not :omg:

[HolyCow]

Well, you can start with Science of Survival, if the original version is even available these days.

But I have to say here that gossip about Scn artists is as nasty as DM and all his goons do and should't be part of this board, in my humble opinion. just sayin':yes:

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I bet its written somewhere!

Be nice to find it.

I think I saw it in the old green volumes that were out around 1972. I think it said they were at risk of being blackmailed so that is why they were not on staff.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[TheSneakster]

not important

[La La Lou Lou]

One shouldnt speculate about personal matters, youre absolutly right.

But if someone is married with kids does this trully mean that they are straight? Especially when they have little choice in the matter if they are vertually forced into a closet.

John may well be straight, its not important, appart from for him and the missus, my point is about closets, and living in them. I think he's cute either way but really dont stand a chance whichever way he swings.

The church says that wogs are dangerous, they shouldnt get to find out that their pet celebs are imperfect, that would make clear and OT look like an overt product. John looks pretty fine to me, but thats a body Im looking at. I have no trouble with him being any sexuality he is happy with. I just hate the churches denial of gays. The pressure to hide anything other than a happy family life. The world has moved on and its still 1950 in Disneyland.:no:

[La La Lou Lou]

Anna Baptist, that's very silly as a policy, if the staff cant be blackmailed how could you keep them there?:confused2:

How could you control them if they blow?:unsure:

No there shouldnt be anyone on staff who is not a paedaphile!:omg:







La La

[OliviaZero]

BlownForGood (Marc Headley), who actually knew J.T., wrote about this matter in the ESMB Live Chatter a couple of weeks ago and absolutely dismissed the claim that J.T. is gay as nonsense saying he has a family and is happily married.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous. I *do* forgive.

Well, either way, I'd love for him to be happy and to be free to be who he is (forgive me for channeling Marlo Thomas here). Right now, I think he's neither.

I don't think being married and having a family rules out the possibility that someone is gay, for what it's worth.

[La La Lou Lou]

You know me, Im not one to gossip, but Ive just seen an article talking about Will Smith.

America seems desperate to find a gay icon.

Or is it that in hollywood the closets are really full.

It's wierd to me that Will, John and what's his name, the short guy who goes funny on Oprah, theyve all got gay rumours about them, are there any other male celebs. Of course theres Beckham too, there were plenty of rumours in the UK, he was a good friend of Elton John. Theyve all got rumours about being gay, thats wierd.

It could be that nasty people are trying to make them look like theyre gay just to make it look like the tech doesnt work. If that's the case that's pretty bad really. I guess it only matters because there are people who cant stand up and proudly say they are who they are and are happy with it, they fear the public might not support them anymore.

On the otherhand if Scientology is applying the 2D policy letter and dont care about someones sexuality why dont they have a real celeb who is gay stand up and take a bow. Because its seen as an abberation that gets handled in auditing. Only it doesnt.

Does any one here know of a person who really became straight from auditing? I mean not just stopped talking about it, or married anyway to get ethics off their back?

It is bad to pick on individuals who are not out, its true. Forcing someone out of the closet is not fair. Nor is locking them in one.

[Good twin]

Maybe in a reference about HCO quals??

When I was on a project to find ppl who could go into security I had to look over life history forms (more specifically the 2D part of the form).

Any homosexual history was an out qual. In comparison (here comes the best part)... sex involving animals was not :omg:

Well thank goodness for that. LOL.

Actually I remember the PL on staff quals talks about not being "crazy". It defines crazy in some detail. One of the definition says the person doesn't have a majority of outpoints. WTF?

Truth is if the SO needs you they will figure out a way to redefine the quals. They can always fitness board you out later. :yes:

[La La Lou Lou]

Good Twin, thats the way, fill up the EPF then get rid rid of the ones that are terminally ill, pysche cases, poofs, ethics cases, took LSD etc, if anyone finds out, otherwise let them be.

Ive seen many of those cases within the sea org. 'Well how do you know it really was LSD, it might have been an asprin, the hallucinations might have been a tummy upset' etc etc.

They never get a fitness board either, thats just too easy. They blow then you bill them because they were graduated into the SO when they shouldnt have been even signed up.

Talk about wrong targetting. Didnt someone statpush, just so they could sleep sometime that week?:yes:

[Good twin]

Right again Lou. :thumbsup:

[I told you I was trouble]

Originally posted by La La Lou Lou
Ive seen many of those cases within the sea org. 'Well how do you know it really was LSD, it might have been an asprin, the hallucinations might have been a tummy upset' etc etc.

:lol:

There is something incredibly rewarding (and funny) about looking an SO recruiter right in the eye and saying, with a huge smile 'YES ... it was definitely LSD'

:goodnight:

[programmer_guy]

OMG are you kidding? Being gay doesn't seem to hurt anyone's career in Hollywood. Being a crazy cult member used to be acceptable as well, but Mr. TC couch jumper changed all that. I'm pretty sure if JT "came out" about being gay and denounced Co$, there would be an outpouring of public support. I doubt if a parents sexuality would be questioned more harshly than a heavily controlling belief system with a custody judge in California.

Maybe he's just not gay. Even if he's not, he'd be better off saying he is and telling all that the cult has been using his gayness to keep him in. Jus sayin.

I don't believe that he is gay. I would say that he is bi-sexual.
I've met a few that have told me so... about themselves.

[skollie]

I don't think being married and having a family rules out the possibility that someone is gay, for what it's worth.

Very true. I have a dear friend who got married, had two children before accepting who he is - and then came out of the closet.

[Oblivion]

Well thank goodness for that. LOL.

Actually I remember the PL on staff quals talks about not being "crazy". It defines crazy in some detail. One of the definition says the person doesn't have a majority of outpoints. WTF?

Truth is if the SO needs you they will figure out a way to redefine the quals. They can always fitness board you out later. :yes:

Fitness board :angry:

One of the last parts of the leaving routing form... I remember mine listed a whole set of points for why I wasn't qualified (like being too long on the EPF, not completing SSII in over a year and other big stuff like that) and therfor I was not fit to be in the SO and was basically "kicked out". Not one mentioning of me wanting to leave myself.

Oh and the reason I hadn't completed SSII was because I was either on mission, in ethics or on book evolutions which were all hill 10's except for a few days between the WiS and OEC0 :eyeroll:

[La La Lou Lou]

If you want to leave it shows youre sane, so you cant!

Catch 22.:yes:

[La La Lou Lou]

I was just thinking about the Scientology and homosexuality thing. It how the church is stuck in the past.

At one time the GO used to send pretty boys to psyches, as I understood it, theyde make a pass at the pretty boys and then they could be made to shut up as the GO knew their witholds.

Isnt that blackmail?

Now no one cares a damn about someones sexuality they just dont know how to handle it.

Anyone know any specifics on this?

[Terril park]

Maybe in a reference about HCO quals??

When I was on a project to find ppl who could go into security I had to look over life history forms (more specifically the 2D part of the form).

Any homosexual history was an out qual. In comparison (here comes the best part)... sex involving animals was not :omg:



I think I read once somewhere on the net that homosexuality was an out qual for an exec.

"Homosexuality" is not indexed in the new green vols.

Exec series 12 ETHICS AND EXECUTIVES gives some examples of out quals.

4]." Irregular 2D connections and practices. "

Obviously open to interpretation.

It seems sex with animals is OK, yet making love to your future husband isn't!:omg:

[degraded being]

I think I read once somewhere on the net that homosexuality was an out qual for an exec.

"Homosexuality" is not indexed in the new green vols.

Exec series 12 ETHICS AND EXECUTIVES gives some examples of out quals.

4]." Irregular 2D connections and practices. "

Obviously open to interpretation.

It seems sex with animals is OK, yet making love to your future husband isn't!:omg:



Well, according to whom, exactly, an OSA exec with a cute looking poodle?:D

[La La Lou Lou]

If a gay couple shag every friday night does it become regular practi:coolwink: ce?

[Good twin]

If a gay couple shag every friday night does it become regular practi:coolwink: ce?

:hmm:

[Ted]

Maybe in a reference about HCO quals??

When I was on a project to find ppl who could go into security I had to look over life history forms (more specifically the 2D part of the form).

Any homosexual history was an out qual. In comparison (here comes the best part)... sex involving animals was not :omg:



Double OMG! :omg: :omg:

[clamicide]

Maybe in a reference about HCO quals??

When I was on a project to find ppl who could go into security I had to look over life history forms (more specifically the 2D part of the form).

Any homosexual history was an out qual. In comparison (here comes the best part)... sex involving animals was not :omg:

That's cause the animals can't say anything to embarrass the church:p . When I was in a recruit cycle for OSA, there was a reference they showed me that specifically banned homosexuality as a qual. Wasn't green on white, don't recall if it was an SO ED or what.

[thefiredragon]

John Travolta used to come to Flag in 1997-98.I have not seen him myself.
but my best friend did.She was supposed to stay by his hotel room and make
sure that nobody bothers him.I think he came for service,not just visiting.