While the Sea Org exists, so will the abuses.

[Carmel]

There has been much discussion of late regarding the future of the "Church", and its continuation, in whatever capacity.

I find it irksome and/or puzzling that some who have now discovered the motivation behind the SO and what it entailed, could feel 'OK' about it remaining in existence or be left to do what it does, with no fear of the very same happening again.

The "Church" was based on a lie. It's apparent that the SO was put there for a different purpose than what was stated or believed. The "lie" and actual "purpose" ended up with a regime that has destroyed too many lives to count.

I'm not talking about Scn here - People can be and are free to use "Scn tech" till the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned. The "regime" that we have known and lived through though, is another matter.

That "Church" and that "SO" is pretty well counter to everything and anything of value within the tenets of Scn. It's oppressive in the extreme. It's certainly in direct conflict with anything and everything that I took from Scn and am thankful for.

The very odd rare individual could possibly make something of the Church or maybe even make the Sea Org something that it isn't today. But, that would take a very rare individual, and why on earth would that individual keep such 'structures' in place, when those structures were only put there and have only served to forward and support a "regime".....and, a regime which is and has been so destructive?

Anything and everything of value that can be taken from Scn, can't and couldn't sit side by side with any sort of "regime", IMO (opposite ends of the spectrum). In addition to that, the FO's, and "LRH advices" tell the story of the SO - It sure as hell isn't in alignment with anything in Scn that I took on board and found useful.

So, I'm saying, let's not kid ourselves, and let's not be complacent with DM being removed from the helm. The ship would still be a bad ship, and it needs to be sunk - While it still floats, so will the corruption, the lies, the maltreatment, and the abuses that are inherent to it.

[Once bitten]

Carmel your posts are always so very insightful. You put things so well and I agree with you totally.

:thumbsup:

[Kookaburra]

I think you're spot on with this, Carmel. I have looked at it every which way but loose. What to salvage? What not to salvage? Is it worthwhile salvaging anything? Why does corporate Scn ALWAYS pick the absolute worst things Hubbard ever said and treat them as gospel, while ignoring basic things such as "Third Dynamic De-abberation", "auditing is for the PC", "Communication is the universal solvent", even the WTH booklet is treated as nothing more than PR fluff, yet if they applied even that, they would get right out of the mess they are in.

But no, it's an obsession with stats, at the expense of real worthwhile products; it's crazy on the subject of ethics, with complete disregard for what is right and wrong. They've even thrown the tech in the toilet, and threw out anyone who stood up and queried it.

So I agree completely with you. Corporate Scientology needs to go. Period. Regardless of DMs downfall, which is a given. The Co$ is unsalvagable, and is a scouge upon the earth that needs to be eradicated.

[DorothyInOz]

I agree totally with Carmel - who summed it up so perfectly.
Enough lives has been ruined and lost !
Enough abuse !!!!!!

[Veda]

-snip-

Why does corporate Scn ALWAYS pick the absolute worst things Hubbard ever said and treat them as gospel, while ignoring basic things such as "Third Dynamic De-abberation", "auditing is for the PC", "Communication is the universal solvent", even the WTH booklet is treated as nothing more than PR fluff.

-snip-



The "absolute worst things Hubbard said" are "gospel," and these do not oppose, but complement, the more positive things, which are also "gospel" but junior "gospel," when push comes to shove.

Hubbard even hinted at this in a non-confidential PR Series issue (#7): "PR is overt," (visible, promoted). "Intelligence is covert" (mostly behind the scenes).

"PR" (the "good") does not conflict with Intel (the "bad"), although they may appear to be in opposition. They work together and that's Scientology.

That's if Scientology "works" as its founder envisioned.

As for the 'WTH' booklet, it is PR fluff, and Scientology "ethics" trumps it, and even Scientology "ethics" has it strata of dogma seniority, the highest being confidential.

Before the Sea Org:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=56196&postcount=793

[Doom]

Yep a bad ship is still a bad ship even without the bad man running it, and a spade is a spade, nice work carmel:thumbsup:

[lkwdblds]

Carmel - Very well stated. I agree with everything you say. Any good parts in the Church should be re organized into a Self Improvement, for profit company. They could publish Hubbard's books and offer self betterment courses which would compete on a level playing field with other self betterment organizations.

There are two aspects that would need to be worked out. First, the religious aspect would have to be addressed. The self betterment ways of doing things are not religious and religion should definitely not be part of them in the new organization. However, when you get into auditing, a religious component is introduced - either you are dealing with religion or you are dealing with medicine and the healing arts. Maybe, the new organization should have two major divisions, non religious self betterment and religious self betterment.

Work would have to be done as to how the religious division would operate. Would it be as a religion? Would it be as an alternate physcotherapy? Who would oversee the activity and what type of licensing, if any, would be required.

The beauty of this type of future for Scientology "tech" is that it would either grow and succeed or contract and fail in the marketplace depending on how well it performed compared to the other options which are out there.
Instead of all the bickering on message boards, the free market would decide its efficacy. How clean and beautiful that would be.
lkwdblds

[Div6]

I was just thinking about this earlier as well.

What are the ACTUAL STATS of the SO?

Protection of the Confidential materials? - Total Failure
Expansion of Scientology and Orgs? - Total Failure
Maintaining the 'purity' of the tech? - Total Failure

Breaking up families? Power

Here is a quote from the Ron man: "The basic characteristic of extreme madness is perpetual attack, attacks on anything, attacks on
persons or things which contain no menace.
Extreme, not petty, crime is at the root of such an impulse.
The attacker has an evil purpose in life. He is a thing of death, not life. "


This is from the "PR Series" (PR Series 18, for those keeping score.)

How does this reconcile with "always attack, never defend?"
Operation SnowWhite?
Operation Freakout?
Gabe Cazares?

etc.


Sea Org = Total Fail.

[Panda Termint]

:goodposting: Yep, good post, Carmel. :goodposting:

[Veda]

-snip-

This is from the "PR Series" (PR Series 18, for those keeping score.)

How does this reconcile with "always attack, never defend?"
Operation SnowWhite?
Operation Freakout?
Gabe Cazares?

etc.


Sea Org = Total Fail.

Reconcile with the above? How about how does this reconcile with the rest of 'PR Series 18'?

A sample quote from 'PR Series 18':

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=219727&postcount=54

[Wisened One]

There has been much discussion of late regarding the future of the "Church", and its continuation, in whatever capacity.

I find it irksome and/or puzzling that some who have now discovered the motivation behind the SO and what it entailed, could feel 'OK' about it remaining in existence or be left to do what it does, with no fear of the very same happening again.

The "Church" was based on a lie. It's apparent that the SO was put there for a different purpose than what was stated or believed. The "lie" and actual "purpose" ended up with a regime that has destroyed too many lives to count.

I'm not talking about Scn here - People can be and are free to use "Scn tech" till the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned. The "regime" that we have known and lived through though, is another matter.

That "Church" and that "SO" is pretty well counter to everything and anything of value within the tenets of Scn. It's oppressive in the extreme. It's certainly in direct conflict with anything and everything that I took from Scn and am thankful for.

The very odd rare individual could possibly make something of the Church or maybe even make the Sea Org something that it isn't today. But, that would take a very rare individual, and why on earth would that individual keep such 'structures' in place, when those structures were only put there and have only served to forward and support a "regime".....and, a regime which is and has been so destructive?

Anything and everything of value that can be taken from Scn, can't and couldn't sit side by side with any sort of "regime", IMO (opposite ends of the spectrum). In addition to that, the FO's, and "LRH advices" tell the story of the SO - It sure as hell isn't in alignment with anything in Scn that I took on board and found useful.

So, I'm saying, let's not kid ourselves, and let's not be complacent with DM being removed from the helm. The ship would still be a bad ship, and it needs to be sunk - While it still floats, so will the corruption, the lies, the maltreatment, and the abuses that are inherent to it.

:goodposting: I love this entire post, Carmel! :clap: (especially the parts I've bolded)...can I use this like in emails?

[Achi]

100% agreement on this.

[Blue Spirit]

CARMEL and Kookaburra I fully agree.

It seems to me that this group being about freedom

has been in practice so much a facist Nazi organization.

I must say I'm still stuck in the IRONY of this bigtime.


About the only thing I might add to the above is that I

wonder that when the Church falls if the practice of

Scientology will be allowed at all by the Nazi's running

the show now, particularly in the U.S. ?

[Achi]

CARMEL and Kookaburra I fully agree.

It seems to me that this group being about freedom

has been in practice so much a facist Nazi organization.

I must say I'm still stuck in the IRONY of this bigtime.


About the only thing I might add to the above is that I

wonder that when the Church falls if the practice of

Scientology will be allowed at all by the Nazi's running

the show now, particularly in the U.S. ?

OK, the Nazi's running the show in the US? I have varying opinions of our government, but really, if you are going to say stuff like this...
Maybe I am being too sensitive, this is the internets after all...
Still...

[NeXTep]

Great thread Carmel.

After some consideration I came to the conclusion that Scientology is a package that cannot be taken apart in any way shape or form.

The Scientology system was the best effort to do the impossible.

Scientology could not survive without the religious cloak. There would just be too many govt and other regulations impeding its normal operation.

Auditing is far too labor intensive to be delivered at affordable prices and paying a decent wage. Even taking away the tremendous admin overhead which exists to defend the religious cloak and other shortcomings, you'd probably still end up with a too heavy admin structure.

Thus organized Scientology is a failed experiment. The tech may continue to be delivered here and there mostly by individuals and small groups but it won't have any impact on society at large as this is not possible without a strong organizaton behind it.

The current abuses are just a consequence of the silent despair that must be ever present for those still within.

[Blue Spirit]

Great thread Carmel.

After some consideration I came to the conclusion that Scientology is a package that cannot be taken apart in any way shape or form.

The Scientology system was the best effort to do the impossible.

Scientology could not survive without the religious cloak. There would just be too many govt and other regulations impeding its normal operation.

Auditing is far too labor intensive to be delivered at affordable prices and paying a decent wage. Even taking away the tremendous admin overhead which exists to defend the religious cloak and other shortcomings, you'd probably still end up with a too heavy admin structure.

Thus organized Scientology is a failed experiment. The tech may continue to be delivered here and there mostly by individuals and small groups but it won't have any impact on society at large as this is not possible without a strong organizaton behind it.

The current abuses are just a consequence of the silent despair that must be ever present for those still within.

Well said and I agree. Did it have to be this way ?? :unsure: :bigcry:

[Mark A. Baker]

I find it irksome and/or puzzling that some who have now discovered the motivation behind the SO and what it entailed, could feel 'OK' about it remaining in existence or be left to do what it does, with no fear of the very same happening again.

For brevity's sake I excepted only the one paragraph, but I'm in substantial agreement with the whole of your post. My only caveat as regards to the SO lies in that I have known some outstanding individuals who for a time have been members of that group. Their character I ascribe to themselves and the uses they have made of their experiences. The SO or other organs of the church themselves certainly warrant no accolades.


Mark A. Baker

[Thrak]

Agreed Carmel. I think another point some miss is that all the lies and abuses are necessary to keep the whole thing going. It would not be viable to pay their employees and let them have leaves for children, and not reg their public to bankruptcy because they'd go out of business.

The lie that this is the way out of being human is the glue that holds the whole thing together. Remove that lie and the whole thing falls apart and your left with some bits of a semi workable psycho-therapy, but one which would take a huge amount of sterilization to get anything useful out of. How anybody could read an LRH reference at this point and take it seriously is beyond me. It's like once a clock strikes 13...

[Thrak]

duplicate

[Roan]

I think you're spot on with this, Carmel. I have looked at it every which way but loose. What to salvage? What not to salvage? Is it worthwhile salvaging anything? Why does corporate Scn ALWAYS pick the absolute worst things Hubbard ever said and treat them as gospel, while ignoring basic things such as "Third Dynamic De-abberation", "auditing is for the PC", "Communication is the universal solvent", even the WTH booklet is treated as nothing more than PR fluff, yet if they applied even that, they would get right out of the mess they are in.

But no, it's an obsession with stats, at the expense of real worthwhile products; it's crazy on the subject of ethics, with complete disregard for what is right and wrong. They've even thrown the tech in the toilet, and threw out anyone who stood up and queried it.

So I agree completely with you. Corporate Scientology needs to go. Period. Regardless of DMs downfall, which is a given. The Co$ is unsalvagable, and is a scouge upon the earth that needs to be eradicated.

Carmel and Kookabura, you ladies are spot on in this thread!
Recent events close to me lately have re re-minded me: the baby AND the bathwater need to go!!! Yesterday. Sixty years of this is 59 years too long!

.

[Stably Exterior]

I agree Carmel.

I have a different theory about why it went bad though.

I think any organisation that sets out to "protect" tends to descend downscale with every "failure to protect". The FDA, CIA, FBI ... Spanish Inquisition ... United States Govt ... etc. Some will remember that Hubbard talks about this in the Level 4 tapes - as it has everything to do with survival and rightness.

The evidence that the SO has gone this route is it's totally certainty that every thing it does it right - no matter how wrong or crazy it's action are.

The real oddity is that Hubbard himself said Scientology doesn't need protection. How can anybody hurt a body of knowledge? :confused2:

How can anybody hurt an idea (a static)?:confused2:

Cheers
Dean

[Carmel]

<snip>. My only caveat as regards to the SO lies in that I have known some outstanding individuals who for a time have been members of that group. Their character I ascribe to themselves and the uses they have made of their experiences. The SO or other organs of the church themselves certainly warrant no accolades.

Mark A. Baker
I'm with ya on this - I too have known some outstanding individuals who have been members of that group.

Many of us agree on this, and agree that the "SO or other organs of the church themselves certainly warrant no accolades". I am curious to hear from those who don't.

I know the "Freezone" is not one group and that those operating within it, using the "tech", do not agree on everything or operate the same way, by any means. From what I can glean, it can and does go well for many. I think that is a good thing, not a bad one. I do believe that if one has found the "raisins amongst the turd" and are working with those raisins, then all power to them.

The Church and the Sea Org though, is something quite separate from that. I don't get how or why some "pro tech exes" who have been out for some time and who have now seen what is behind it all, can not see that there is a distinction here. I don't understand how they can not see that the Church and/or the Sea Org is in direct conflict with anything of value in Scn.

While I was in Scn, I could never understand what I considered the "irony" of it all. The more I studied and learnt as the years went by, the more ability, the more freedom and the more the courage I gained - exercising that ability, that freedom and that courage though, became more and more difficult, and I started to stick out like a sore toe more and more, within the ranks of the CofS. I could never understand it - This is what Scn was "supposed" to be about. It was like, "bloody hell, through Scn I'm learning all this stuff and making these gains, yet the more I demonstrate or exercise what I now have, the more ya want to stifle me, and the more strife I get into." I felt like I didn't "fit in" and I thought it was my fault. I have since learned that anybody would have trouble fitting into such a regime, and even in the 'better times'. Ya can't preach freedom, choices, independance, integrity, courage and all that, but then squash someone into physical, mental and spiritual compliance which the church and the SO would always do and require.

I do understand it now, or at least I have some understanding of it. Scn is not something I wish to pursue, but for those who do, how do you see anything of benefit with it, fitting and in alignment with the CofS and/or the Sea Org? - They just seem like chalk and cheese to me, and I don't get how those who have found value in the tech would have any desire to see the "Church" or the SO survive, because the Church and the SO have done nothing but stifle that which can be gained from Scn - And that's leaving aside the huge issue of abuse which is and has always been rife within both the Church and the SO.

I'm not screaming about this. I just don't understand the desire and/or the acceptance of some us here to see the 'Church' and the SO survive - hence, I'm asking.

[Div6]

I'm with ya on this - I too have known some outstanding individuals who have been members of that group.

Many of us agree on this, and agree that the "SO or other organs of the church themselves certainly warrant no accolades". I am curious to hear from those who don't.

I know the "Freezone" is not one group and that those operating within it, using the "tech", do not agree on everything or operate the same way, by any means. From what I can glean, it can and does go well for many. I think that is a good thing, not a bad one. I do believe that if one has found the "raisins amongst the turd" and are working with those raisins, then all power to them.

The Church and the Sea Org though, is something quite separate from that. I don't get how or why some "pro tech exes" who have been out for some time and who have now seen what is behind it all, can not see that there is a distinction here. I don't understand how they can not see that the Church and/or the Sea Org is in direct conflict with anything of value in Scn.

While I was in Scn, I could never understand what I considered the "irony" of it all. The more I studied and learnt as the years went by, the more ability, the more freedom and the more the courage I gained - exercising that ability, that freedom and that courage though, became more and more difficult, and I started to stick out like a sore toe more and more, within the ranks of the CofS. I could never understand it - This is what Scn was "supposed" to be about. It was like, "bloody hell, through Scn I'm learning all this stuff and making these gains, yet the more I demonstrate or exercise what I now have, the more ya want to stifle me, and the more strife I get into." I felt like I didn't "fit in" and I thought it was my fault. I have since learned that anybody would have trouble fitting into such a regime, and even in the 'better times'. Ya can't preach freedom, choices, independance, integrity, courage and all that, but then squash someone into physical, mental and spiritual compliance which the church and the SO would always do and require.

I do understand it now, or at least I have some understanding of it. Scn is not something I wish to pursue, but for those who do, how do you see anything of benefit with it, fitting and in alignment with the CofS and/or the Sea Org? - They just seem like chalk and cheese to me, and I don't get how those who have found value in the tech would have any desire to see the "Church" or the SO survive, because the Church and the SO have done nothing but stifle that which can be gained from Scn - And that's leaving aside the huge issue of abuse which is and has always been rife within both the Church and the SO.

I'm not screaming about this. I just don't understand the desire and/or the acceptance of some us here to see the 'Church' and the SO survive - hence, I'm asking.

Carmel,


This is just *my* viewpoint currently. Let me start by saying that we are in total agreement that the abuses *must* end. And if that means tearing the whole structure down, then so be it.

That said, I do have a need for someplace I can send people where they can safely go to increase their spiritual literacy, increase their ability, and learn how to better help themselves and others, without unnecessary external influence. And while the internet provides a great way to make materials and data available, the "doingness" needs to be supervised, otherwise it either doesn't happen, or it gets curved in to some kind of slavery. The mission network USED to fill that need. But we know what happened to it.

I am always open to ideas about how better to organize a spiritual evolution...

[Veda]

-snip-

The real oddity is that Hubbard himself said Scientology doesn't need protection.

-snip-



Hubbard lied. He did that a lot, particularly to Scientologists. It wasn't an accident. To make it nice and gooey, he mixed in some brilliant truths.

[HolyCow]

"Brilliant Truths"? Have you read All about Hubbard? Do you understand that he was a narcisstic psychopathic from the start and then went on drugs?

Do you undestand that he was also paranoid? And that his son explained very explicitly how, in his few lucid moments, he took bits and pieces of "data" from all kinds of sources to put in "just enough" real stuff (not his own) to make the "con" work.

Every good con or psychopath knows to mix in a little something to hook the bait. To call it truth or brilliant, I have to say that I hope you will do just a whole lot more reading and research. I say this only because I think this will help you in the end. Not just about Scientology, but also in life, to sharpen your reasoning and analytical skills that will help you in every area of your life.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, I'm not meaning it that way. I sincerely want you to know that you need to do some more research and analysis. I say that from someone who has been gullible in the past, but then got smarter, but then Still ! found myself conned, so I learned to do more research and sharpen my skills in many ways.

I'm an Old Timer (ex) Scientologist, I never ever bought into the bullshit, got out when it all went insane decades ago, but held on to beliefs about LRH and tech for some time, but only because I didn't examine it with the same filters. I didn't do that because I needed to believe. When I found out about what's been going on the last decade or so, I rexamined, read, researched and examined my own "wins" as well as "wins" of others I had known and came to my own conclusion. God, it pissed me off and I tried to deny it, but it was true.
Later, I read the "EP of OT 8", and well, that's all folks!
:yes:

[the-ghostwhowalks]

Yes - Carmel I could not agree more - the Sea Org is a disaster that needs to be shut down - regardless of one's position on Scientology - the Sea Org has very little do with scn, particularly in regards to ARC ! :)

[HolyCow]

Yes - regardless of one's position on Scientology :)


Please, please, please, repeat to yourself what you just stated above and realize what you are saying? Please realize that the SO is, I repeat, IS, Scientology!

Please read all the stories here and elsewhere of true Ex Scientologists and Ex Scn kids, and Ex SO and ....
well, you get the idea. :omg:

[Illegal Alien]

Agreed Carmel. I think another point some miss is that all the lies and abuses are necessary to keep the whole thing going. It would not be viable to pay their employees and let them have leaves for children, and not reg their public to bankruptcy because they'd go out of business.

The lie that this is the way out of being human is the glue that holds the whole thing together. Remove that lie and the whole thing falls apart and your left with some bits of a semi workable psycho-therapy, but one which would take a huge amount of sterilization to get anything useful out of. How anybody could read an LRH reference at this point and take it seriously is beyond me. It's like once a clock strikes 13...

VERY WELL PUT EXACTLY :clap: :clap:

[the-ghostwhowalks]

I understand how you feel -however Id like to point out that there were people having great wins BEFORE the SO was even thought of - the principles and techniques that LRH popularised exsist alone without admin, orgs, uniforms and his personal priorities...
I for one had absolutely wonderful life saving wins (CCH 's) from a guy who had nothing whatsoever to do with any org anywhere - he had simply heard about a technique from an associate and taught himself how to do "give me that hand" and in about 10 hrs it spared me from a crippling adolescent depression - It was many years later that I discovered them on a course in an org - I do concede that the bloody mess that LRH and Miscavige have made is very serious and will no doubt make life difficult for those who still have time for the best of the subject ( to say the least....) :confused2:

best wishes GWW

[riptide]

The current abuses are just a consequence of the silent despair that must be ever present for those still within.

This strikes a chord within me, many times I felt despair connected to this subject and the apparent lack of accord with society at large. Very poignant statement indeed.

I can recall my first reaction to seeing someone in an SO uniform many years ago at a mission or Org -can't remember which, and having the perception about the weight and stress that the entire CULT of the Sea Org seemed to be manifesting in that persons space. I just knew, deep down, that it was something to stay away from, and that there was something, not exactly warm fuzzy and nice, that awaited me down the road.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Blaming the abuses on the Sea Org is like blaming Miscavige for the abuses. The Sea Org and Miscavige are nothing but living extensions of Hubbard himself. Sceintology was never intended to be anything than a self-serving totalitarian cult. It could be argued that Dianetics was intended to help people deal with repressed emotions which are limiting their potential but even that is a stretch, since it was designed to make the entire human race reliant on Hubbard's so-called "Tech". Hubbard was a total piece of shit, who thrived on controlling people into worshiping him and that is exactly what his dysfunctional evil little navy was intended to achieve.

While Hubbard's Policies exist so will the abuses.

[Terril park]

Great thread Carmel.

After some consideration I came to the conclusion that Scientology is a package that cannot be taken apart in any way shape or form.

The Scientology system was the best effort to do the impossible.

Scientology could not survive without the religious cloak. There would just be too many govt and other regulations impeding its normal operation.

Auditing is far too labor intensive to be delivered at affordable prices and paying a decent wage. Even taking away the tremendous admin overhead which exists to defend the religious cloak and other shortcomings, you'd probably still end up with a too heavy admin structure.

Thus organized Scientology is a failed experiment. The tech may continue to be delivered here and there mostly by individuals and small groups but it won't have any impact on society at large as this is not possible without a strong organizaton behind it.

The current abuses are just a consequence of the silent despair that must be ever present for those still within.

The previous missions did a great job and were not admin top heavy.
The problem with that occuring again is that the S word is hated universally.

[I told you I was trouble]

Blaming the abuses on the Sea Org is like blaming Miscavige for the abuses. The Sea Org and Miscavige are nothing but living extensions of Hubbard himself. Sceintology was never intended to be anything than a self-serving totalitarian cult. It could be argued that Dianetics was intended to help people deal with repressed emotions which are limiting their potential but even that is a stretch, since it was designed to make the entire human race reliant on Hubbard's so-called "Tech". Hubbard was a total piece of shit, who thrived on controlling people into worshiping him and that is exactly what his dysfunctional evil little navy was intended to achieve.

While Hubbard's Policies exist so will the abuses.


^^^^^

:)

[NeXTep]

The previous missions did a great job and were not admin top heavy.
The problem with that occuring again is that the S word is hated universally.

I know that some missions have been doing quite well in the tech admin ratio, however the orgs already existed and ensured the religious cloak and all that stuff that missions were very reluctant to even consider. And individuals and small groups never receive the same attention as a big organization.

Organized Scientology has become an unholy alliance of a military organization, a business and a religion. How could this ever go well.

Take away just one element and it won't work anymore or would be in legal trouble within no time.

No military organization, the whole pressure would be gone and the system would crash.

Not a business, the CofS would have to rely on donations from their parishioners. Imagine how that would work out for such a thing as auditing.

Not a religion, then auditing becomes psychological practice and in most countries it is illegal. (Just to mention one consequence, however there are countless more)

As long as missions were kind of detached from that unholy alliance they worked pretty well, however they depended on protection from the nearest org and GO/OSA and that in the final analysis was the triggering point for the takeover as they were considered parasites. And that was not only top management who thought that way, but this thinking was common in Cl IV orgs too.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I know that some missions have been doing quite well in the tech admin ratio, however the orgs already existed and ensured the religious cloak and all that stuff that missions were very reluctant to even consider. And individuals and small groups never receive the same attention as a big organization.

Organized Scientology has become an unholy alliance of a military organization, a business and a religion. How could this ever go well.

Take away just one element and it won't work anymore or would be in legal trouble within no time.

No military organization, the whole pressure would be gone and the system would crash.

Not a business, the CofS would have to rely on donations from their parishioners. Imagine how that would work out for such a thing as auditing.

Not a religion, then auditing becomes psychological practice and in most countries it is illegal. (Just to mention one consequence, however there are countless more)

As long as missions were kind of detached from that unholy alliance they worked pretty well, however they depended on protection from the nearest org and GO/OSA and that in the final analysis was the triggering point for the takeover as they were considered parasites. And that was not only top management who thought that way, but this thinking was common in Cl IV orgs too.

Yep, It's a government, religion, and a military, fully equipped with slaves and a trail of human carnage to go along with it, and all wrapped up in a dysfunctional totalitarian package, and throw in a few enemies to keep the slaves preoccupied from focusing on their own goals. Kind of like Hubbard's very own miniature North Korea.

[Thrak]

Yep, It a government, religion, and a military, fully equipped with slaves and a trail of human carnage to go along with it, and all wrapped up in a dysfunctional totalitarian package, and throw in a few enemies to keep the slaves preoccupied from focusing on their own goals. Kind of like Hubbard's very own miniature North Korea.

Good way to put it.

[Mark A. Baker]

I'm with ya on this - I too have known some outstanding individuals who have been members of that group.

Many of us agree on this, and agree that the "SO or other organs of the church themselves certainly warrant no accolades". I am curious to hear from those who don't.

I rather doubt that many likely candidates for your question post here. :whistling:

As I've stated before, I always considered the SO a damn silly idea. As a sort of Bodhisattva Jesuit Brotherhood in sailor suits it just struck me as an obvious dramatization of case. However I've had exchanges with many freezoners on this topic and will take a stab at your questions.



The Church and the Sea Org though, is something quite separate from that. I don't get how or why some "pro tech exes" who have been out for some time and who have now seen what is behind it all, can not see that there is a distinction here. I don't understand how they can not see that the Church and/or the Sea Org is in direct conflict with anything of value in Scn.

Best as I can figure those who do continue to value either the "church" or the SO value an IDEAL of the church/SO not the reality which they have become. Many see the distinction between the ideal & the reality but their views have been shaped by their own individual understandings of the group INTENTION. Where they see either the church or SO as established to fulfill "Ron's Intent", they see that intention as that belonging to the "Good Ron", not the "Crazy Ron".

[n.b. Such individuals often are VERY FAMILAR with the distinction between the "Two Rons". They don't simply conclude that because Hubbard COULD and OFTEN did behave in an irrational and destructive fashion that therefore he was necessarily an irrational & destructive being. Many "old timers" knew Hubbard WELL, good & bad, yet STILL have a high regard for him personally. That they choose not to focus on his manifold failings is not indicative of their ignorance of those failings. Often they know more than that which has been publicly divulged.]

In the case of such old timers, they value that which they experienced back in the 50's, '60s, and at the latest early '70s. They believed in the "mission" and were part of a creative team who were having a blast getting things done. They had a feeling of getting REAL PRODUCTS back then as well as a lot more latitude in their personal lives & thoughts. By their reports things went downhill with time, but early days were different and much more enjoyable. Things took some time before they became intolerable. By the '80s - if not before - kiss the dream goodbye! :bigcry:

As such, they choose to still hold on to their own individual share of that earlier dream.



While I was in Scn, I could never understand what I considered the "irony" of it all. The more I studied and learnt as the years went by, the more ability, the more freedom and the more the courage I gained - exercising that ability, that freedom and that courage though, became more and more difficult, and I started to stick out like a sore toe more and more, within the ranks of the CofS. I could never understand it - This is what Scn was "supposed" to be about.

If I may be permitted to ask: was an ep missed? :whistling:



I do understand it now, or at least I have some understanding of it. Scn is not something I wish to pursue, but for those who do, how do you see anything of benefit with it, fitting and in alignment with the CofS and/or the Sea Org? - They just seem like chalk and cheese to me, and I don't get how those who have found value in the tech would have any desire to see the "Church" or the SO survive, because the Church and the SO have done nothing but stifle that which can be gained from Scn - And that's leaving aside the huge issue of abuse which is and has always been rife within both the Church and the SO.

I'm not screaming about this. I just don't understand the desire and/or the acceptance of some us here to see the 'Church' and the SO survive - hence, I'm asking.

Those individuals within the freezone who see the idea of "reforming the church" as still having merit focus on the benefit of the group camaraderie as well as the prospect of recreating large safe communities for training & auditing. They typically recognize that the organizational structure was inherently flawed but they do think it IS possible to improve upon it and make it work.

I have to agree with them that it would be POSSIBLE. The success of the Society of Friends as a long term free association of spiritually inclined individuals is a case in point. However, from my view, achieving such with the instruments of "official scientology" would clearly require MASSIVE changes in the church and elimination of much of LRH policy in order to "make it go right". Nor would Hubbard loyalists be comfortable with such radical revision.

I consider such discussions to be rather academic at this point. The church, although theoretically "salvageable" is unlikely to internally restructure in the necessary fashion on its own. The SO I simply don't consider viable, period. It could only exist as a parasitic attachment to a wider church. Altering it in a fashion which would benefit the wider membership of the church would alter its established character as an internal enforcement arm altogether. For me the SO is ALL about intimidation. It's sad really.


Mark A. Baker

[Veda]

-snip-

Many "old timers" knew Hubbard WELL, good & bad, yet STILL have a high regard for him personally. That they choose not to focus on his manifold failings is not indicative of their ignorance of those failings. Often they know more than that which has been publicly divulged.]

-snip-



Most did not know Hubbard well. Many were not even aware of his drug use, and they definitely weren't aware of his hidden agenda, and his privately-held low opinion of Scientologists.

Who? Ken Urquhart, who believes that "there is no one of sufficient stature on this planet to stand in judgement of L. Ron Hubbard," and looks forward to "Ron, returning, 1000 times more brilliant." ?

Who?

Not John Campbell, not Dr. Winter, not Richard DeMille, not 2nd wife Sara, not Don Purcell, not John McMaster "the first real Clear," not John Sanborn the editor of Hubbard's 1950s books, not David Mayo former senior C/S International and Class 12, not - and the list goes on. These are people who really did know Hubbard, and some spent their lives recovering from the mind-games he played upon them.

And why, if Hubbard is supposed to be so unimportant, as you've asserted in the past, are you still doing a "PR handling" on LRH image"?

Don't you think people see through what you're doing, and have been doing since you arrived here?

[SweetnessandLight]

Thanks Mark, and all other posters on this thread, for contributing the insightful comments. Very thought provoking. This topic goes to the core issue of the future survival of the "church" of Scientology, as it is currently organized as an entity. Change is inevitable for all human organizations. Future legal and financial challenges clearly will eventually force the COS to change, sooner or later, if it does not reform from within first (which doesn't look likely, but could still happen).

At this time it is clear that what are called by the church some squirreled or altered parts or practices of the tech, (which may in fact more closely resemble original tech processes than what is currently being practiced or delivered by the church on the whole,) will survive into the future as part of freezone or independant practice. It may or may not be called Scientology. To the extent that anyone gains insight, strength, personal growth, healing or help from such practices, those practices will survive without much formal organization. People are free to practice that form of tech or not, according to their own light, as they are all other forms of mental disciplines or spiritual traditions.

The current organized structure of the COS does more closely follow a multi-national for-profit corporation than any church I have ever seen or heard of, and as such, present time mismanagement and blatant abuses such as human rights violations, financial fraud, and the variety of illegal activities that the COS sponsors, creates and condones will surely be it's undoing, if left uncorrected. Such a corrupt and abusive system cannot stand and function for long, as it will eventually collapse due to lack of support from within, as well as from external correction from the greater community of society without.

For those who got in or stayed in due to idealistic impulses, and a desire for self betterment, personal growth, comradeship and community service,
I won't invalidate the positive experiences that anyone has had during their training and service, or the desire to continue to grow and learn by seeing if any part of the tech is still helpful for them, personally. That is your right.

I feel great compassion for and want to also validate the experience of those who post here (or are still too squashed to post here, but are reading) who feel outraged and defrauded, confused, lied to, manipulated and abused (verbally, emotionally, physically, sexually). If there is any solace in surviving really bad experiences, it is that having survived, afterwards, life can be a joyous adventure again. Hopefully, as a bonus you will have learned something valuable from having survived your difficulties. This is where it is up to each individual to claim your own power, and co-create your own good life. Experience (both harsh and enobling) can be the greatest of teachers. As I see it, your primary job now is to heal, as fully as possible, and to help others to heal, and then go on to live the fullest, richest, happiest, healthiest most creative, productive life possible. Living well is the best revenge.

We are living in an ever increasing global society, a world wide community of curious knowledge seekers on many levels. It is getting harder and harder to hide the truth about anything, as time goes on and technology connects us all more and more. Keep telling your truths. The key to success is to keep communicating. (Ron didn't invent that.) Know that people are listening and learning.

As to what will happen to the church of Scientology, and/or freezone practitioners, "by their fruits ye shall know them". To paraphrase the Bible, A tree bearing good fruit will prosper, and a tree not bearing good fruit will be cut down, and maybe used for firewood? Marshmallows, anyone?

[Terril park]

As long as missions were kind of detached from that unholy alliance they worked pretty well, however they depended on protection from the nearest org and GO/OSA and that in the final analysis was the triggering point for the takeover as they were considered parasites. And that was not only top management who thought that way, but this thinking was common in Cl IV orgs too.

They needed protection FROM the nearest SO/OSA.

[SweetnessandLight]

Whoops! Sorry for the mistake! :duh: Misplaced post here by mistake, See Emma's "Sitting on the fence" thread to read post. :D