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Doom
22nd July 2009, 02:22 PM
Ok, This is the Question "What does integrity have to do with it"?
and my answer is simple, everything. In my life the times that I was asked to do or ordered to do something that went against my own good sense and integrity the overwhelming number of these transgressions were when I was a security guard for the CofS (Sea Org), One rather difficult and harrowing incident was one morning after night shift(5pm-930am) I was sent to one of the Female berthings to get someone missing from muster back into to org, so as I always did because the org had no car available I rode my bicycle to this berthing and found the person in question still in bed but not asleep she looked like she hadn't slept all night and looking in her eyes she was not just a little sick she was in "real" pain, I reported this on the radio to the security chief he didn't give a shit and ordered me to get her on her feet and walk her to the org.
I urged her even thou I knew she didnt look like she was able to stand much less walk the mile and a half to the org. With the chief still on the radio saying that it all CI in her mind, This went on for twenty more minutes, finally I snapped due lack of sleep or lack of affinity for the chief, and gave the chief a serve on what my job was, what his was and what the job of the staff section officer was. At which point I suggested that the chief should send the staff section officer out in a taxi to take her to a doctors and that I was going to bed and turning off my radio till I was back on post, and did.
When I arrived back at the Org after very little sleep in the afternoon, thinking I was in the shit and I wasn't, Turns out the lady I had been sent for was still in hospital in surgery having an ovarian cyst removed (If you want to know how painful one is just ask how was child birth).
This was just one example of me failing my own integrity, I left the S.O. soon after that then payed my freeloader got my lifetime IAS membership and got myself back on lines thanks to my loving wife for the push needed and was a public for many years active in the field and still failing my own integrity and doing what was right for "the group" and just ended up with a mountain of debt and very little to show for it. Now I'm out and making my own choices it suddenly feels right.

So this is the question I am asking "What does integrity have to do with it"?
More so how often have you sacrificed your own integrity for the CofS.

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
22nd July 2009, 02:45 PM
There are many conceptions you have to put on hold when you buy into Scientology "Integrity" is just one of them. Hubbard's mind control package including an imaginary war against imaginary enemies to make it easier to justify tossing conditions such as Integrity, compassion, love, empathy, est. to the wind.

You are fighting a war after all .... for mankind's survival, none the less.

MAX YOUR CREDIT
22nd July 2009, 03:26 PM
Ok, This is the Question "What does integrity have to do with it"?
and my answer is simple, everything. In my life the times that I was asked to do or ordered to do something that went against my own good sense and integrity the overwhelming number of these transgressions were when I was a security guard for the CofS (Sea Org), One rather difficult and harrowing incident was one morning after night shift(5pm-930am) I was sent to one of the Female berthings to get someone missing from muster back into to org, so as I always did because the org had no car available I rode my bicycle to this berthing and found the person in question still in bed but not asleep she looked like she hadn't slept all night and looking in her eyes she was not just a little sick she was in "real" pain, I reported this on the radio to the security chief he didn't give a shit and ordered me to get her on her feet and walk her to the org.
I urged her even thou I knew she didnt look like she was able to stand much less walk the mile and a half to the org. With the chief still on the radio saying that it all CI in her mind, This went on for twenty more minutes, finally I snapped due lack of sleep or lack of affinity for the chief, and gave the chief a serve on what my job was, what his was and what the job of the staff section officer was. At which point I suggested that the chief should send the staff section officer out in a taxi to take her to a doctors and that I was going to bed and turning off my radio till I was back on post, and did.
When I arrived back at the Org after very little sleep in the afternoon, thinking I was in the shit and I wasn't, Turns out the lady I had been sent for was still in hospital in surgery having an ovarian cyst removed (If you want to know how painful one is just ask how was child birth).
This was just one example of me failing my own integrity, I left the S.O. soon after that then payed my freeloader got my lifetime IAS membership and got myself back on lines thanks to my loving wife for the push needed and was a public for many years active in the field and still failing my own integrity and doing what was right for "the group" and just ended up with a mountain of debt and very little to show for it. Now I'm out and making my own choices it suddenly feels right.

So this is the question I am asking "What does integrity have to do with it"?
More so how often have you sacrificed your own integrity for the CofS.


I love your story. YES indeed, integrity has a lot to do with it.
I realize about 2 years before I left that I was not only going against my
own knowingness, but VIOLATING my integrity countless times for the greatest good of the group, for LRH and so on....and so on.

It got to the point where I started lying just to get out of the insane
group agreement mentality. I would start making up some stupid
story on why I wasn't going to do what they wanted me to do. Or I would just started talking back to them to the point I started using profanity and
letting them know that they can not control me or make me do anything I didn't feel was right. Justifications were the norm for me. :yes:

I refused to have my integrity interrogated.

I feel so sad for some of my ex-friends, who are hopeless and living in fear because they see the church as much powerful than themselves and do not want to do or say anything wrong to go against church beliefs.

Doom
22nd July 2009, 11:45 PM
Thanks guys, nice to have some feed back.
chuck love the whole imaginary war , imaginary enemys, very true when on the CofS side we never saw them never stood toe to toe with them, They sold us a crock of shit. Max In my experiance violating my integrity got easier and easier but at the end as I dug my heels in it got harder to do, I didnt want to give them an inch.

Shredder
22nd July 2009, 11:50 PM
Great post Doom! your response Chuck was very true. My thoughts went imediately to the 'Packaging' of every day things under the banner of Scientology. eg The E-meter periphery vision drill - as one of last drills; not looking at the emeter, but somewhere else, but still knowing exactly what was going on with the needle on the meter.
I used to play that game with my kids - way before I found out about Scn. BUT when I saw this on the emeter drills, I thought, yeah, so this is LRH too? ...and just shelved it as another strike against - when I didn't hold much significance for these every day things. So the Packaging was the thing. That's what the events hammered out re-packaging of the same old - except getting changed/altered more, and coming under a new banner 'GAT', 'Golden Age of Knowledge' etc etc.
It certainly becomes clearer when you allow yourself to 'Look', Doom, thanks for the insights.

Carmel
23rd July 2009, 12:06 PM
"Integrity" is a loaded word. Bringing it down to its most basic though, if "integrity" had precedence, value and/or importance in Scn, we would have had an entirely different scene within the CofS, and there wouldn't be the thousands still hurting over what so many let occur and/or contributed to - Despite the heinous 'activity' of LRH and DM, it can't all be put down to them. The 'machine' that was and is, couldn't have been and wouldn't be, if the individuals involved practiced what they preached in regard to "integrity".

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
23rd July 2009, 01:14 PM
"Integrity" is a loaded word. Bringing it down to its most basic though, if "integrity" had precedence, value and/or importance in Scn, we would have had an entirely different scene within the CofS, and there wouldn't be the thousands still hurting over what so many let occur and/or contributed to - Despite the heinous 'activity' of LRH and DM, it can't all be put down to them. The 'machine' that was and is, couldn't have been and wouldn't be, if the individuals involved practiced what they preached in regard to "integrity".

You bring up a very good point as I was reading your post I tried to think of a single instance where L. Ron Hubbard displayed "integrity". His motives and actions were always 100% self serving. The same can be said for his protégé Miscavige , except he has been programmed to include Hubbard's interests along with his own.

Dark Phoenix
23rd July 2009, 01:56 PM
Ok, This is the Question "What does integrity have to do with it"?
and my answer is simple, everything. In my life the times that I was asked to do or ordered to do something that went against my own good sense and integrity the overwhelming number of these transgressions were when I was a security guard for the CofS (Sea Org), One rather difficult and harrowing incident was one morning after night shift(5pm-930am) I was sent to one of the Female berthings to get someone missing from muster back into to org, so as I always did because the org had no car available I rode my bicycle to this berthing and found the person in question still in bed but not asleep she looked like she hadn't slept all night and looking in her eyes she was not just a little sick she was in "real" pain, I reported this on the radio to the security chief he didn't give a shit and ordered me to get her on her feet and walk her to the org.
I urged her even thou I knew she didnt look like she was able to stand much less walk the mile and a half to the org. With the chief still on the radio saying that it all CI in her mind, This went on for twenty more minutes, finally I snapped due lack of sleep or lack of affinity for the chief, and gave the chief a serve on what my job was, what his was and what the job of the staff section officer was. At which point I suggested that the chief should send the staff section officer out in a taxi to take her to a doctors and that I was going to bed and turning off my radio till I was back on post, and did.
When I arrived back at the Org after very little sleep in the afternoon, thinking I was in the shit and I wasn't, Turns out the lady I had been sent for was still in hospital in surgery having an ovarian cyst removed (If you want to know how painful one is just ask how was child birth).
This was just one example of me failing my own integrity, I left the S.O. soon after that then payed my freeloader got my lifetime IAS membership and got myself back on lines thanks to my loving wife for the push needed and was a public for many years active in the field and still failing my own integrity and doing what was right for "the group" and just ended up with a mountain of debt and very little to show for it. Now I'm out and making my own choices it suddenly feels right.

So this is the question I am asking "What does integrity have to do with it"?
More so how often have you sacrificed your own integrity for the CofS.

Hi Doom

A couple of things occurred to me when i read your post.first, you sound like such a sincere, genuine, and conscientious young man. Just from reading your story here, and many of your other posts, you come to me as a decent, good guy, I don't sense any malice in you. Now I'll venture to say, I also get a sense you being maybe too hard on yourself. I was once like that. I read through all the details in your story. And I sat and thought about as many aspects there were. I put myself in your shoes as empathically as I could. I imagined myself being a lot younger. I read what happened in your story one ore time.

The first thing, which was very obvious to me is that you're very hard on yourself. And in joint first place I can't actually see what you did that would precipitate the dreaded feeling of having lost one's integrity. I'm not minimizing the turmoil you're in at the moment, Doom. This is still your pain and you got to live with it. I'm trying to get a balanced view, if such a thing is possible, and even better, if it can offer any help.Can you actually tell the exact thing or 2 or 3 things you should have done that you didn't. Was there anything or things you couldn't actually control, just as a matter of reality?Is there anything you could have predicted and therefore prevented?

Gadfly
23rd July 2009, 02:16 PM
The concept of Personal Integrity is lovely. I agree with Hubbard's HCO PL entitled the same. One can do well by sticking to what one observes to be true, and by NOT denying or justifying any contradictions to what one observes as true or existing.

The problem, of course, is that the Church doesn't practice it, and it is impossible for any member to practice it honestly within the framework of the Church of Scientology.

For me, "integrity" has a great deal to do with things. For the Church, quite obviously NOT.

And, of course, it is an observable fact that Hubbard did write (and claimed to encourage) this wonderful little nugget, yet also wrote (and encouraged) other extreme pieces of crap. How does a sincere member make sense of such contradictions?

One either denies, justifies, develops a case of cognitive dissonance, or one leaves. There seems to be no other options. Of course, once any person gets to step four, and finally leaves, one must then eventually sort through and deal with all the various ways one handled the contradictions with personal "denial", "justification" and "cognitive dissonace". It can be tough. There can be a great deal to dig through and clarify for oneself.

ChronicEnturbulator
23rd July 2009, 07:11 PM
A long time ago, I remember reading a quote from a book (unfortunately, I can't remember which one, so I can't give proper attribution), which goes something like this:

"In an evil society, a true hero will be seen as the blackest of villians."

Mark A. Baker
23rd July 2009, 10:35 PM
Ok, This is the Question "What does integrity have to do with it"?
and my answer is simple, everything.

Absolutely. I'm of the view that the tech of scientology accurately & effectively reflects this simple fact. All "case" ultimately hinges on this principle.

The dark irony is the degree to which the Co$ negates the individual integrity of scientologists through the enforced "interpretation" of tech. This undoes the gains to be had from actually using the tech.



... This was just one example of me failing my own integrity,

I disagree. Judging from your story you are the likely reason the young lady's problem was addressed at all. However you see your own efforts, you made a BIG DIFFERENCE to her in her circumstances.


Mark A. Baker

Telepathetic
24th July 2009, 12:26 AM
Doom,

I read your story and I don't actually see how it was that you lost your integrity. You told off that SOB and consequently the girl was taken care of. I cherish the memory of those rare moments when I too fought for the individual in spite of the consequences.

Integrity does though take quite a beating inside that madhouse.

I found it hard , at times, to determine what was right. Would my decision, on any given matter, aid the "Cause" or would I become "reasonable" and aid the individual...could I possibly consider his needs and desires if these conflicted with that of the "Cause's"needs and...stats?

There was a constant struggle within me regarding this. Most of the times I just surrendered to the group's demands. After all, who was I? I processed a "Reactive Mind." I might have had "OWs" or perhaps the last conversation I had had with my dad caused me to become "PTS!" These and other such dogmas--which I had accepted as ultimate truths-- always made me flinch if I dared to go against current.

The brainwashing was complete. The code words and phrases were in place: I was out ethics, a DB, had a Reactive mind, was off purpose or a down-stat etc. if I ever failed to perform my duties within the cult.

It did not matter though that someone would utter the "code words/phrases" to me...these had already been deeply implanted in my mind. I was my own monitor now, that synthetic little voice reprimanded me for thinking outside the "church's" little box. Their insidious indoctrination had by now overtaken my reasoning.

It took me a couple of years, after being out, to admit to myself that I had been BRAINWASHED! This was one of the most difficult things that I had to face.

TP

HelluvaHoax!
24th July 2009, 12:42 AM
Interesting thread!

What seems certain to me is that INTEGRITY requires knowing the difference between right and wrong AND trying to hold onto the right side, despite influences. No absolutes here, just TRYING to hold on to it.

Some peoples' threshold of pain is less than others so they break easier. Think of a prisoner of war being tortured to spill secrets. They ALL probably break sooner or later but the ones that tried to hold out had some integrity.

Scientology, on the other hand, as a group of individuals and as an organized Church, has precious little integrity. It begins with some lofty pronouncements about what it stands for, what it believes, it's creed, it's codes, etc.

But it does not hold or even try to hold on to what is right. It only holds on to what is good for Scientology and Scientology alone.

In that real-life story you told, if you had obeyed your orders and she died while walking, you would have been declared for not following LRH policy. The Church would have trashed you in a minute if they thought it would get them out of trouble. You would be "bad" from Scn's view.

If you didn't bring her to the org but it was found that she wasn't deathly ill (cyst), you would likely have been trashed with RPF or heavily disciplined for backflash and refusing orders and other LRH policy violations. You would have been hit because you were cutting across the money producing lines of the org by failing to force a slave to go to work. That would be "bad" from Scn's view.

In other words, BOTH CHOICES on your part would be "BAD" according to Scientology. But they always have the advantage of having 20:20 Hindsight. If it was a Scientology Casino, they would only place their bets AFTER the roulette wheel stopped spinning.

They ALWAYS know the answer because the events have already happened and so they simply decide which is the right side that brings them money and power (or avoids attacks and litigation and liability) and they say that is what they believe.

An individual can NEVER win in that game.

Only Scn can win because there are no rules and any rules that are stated are canceled,ignored or altered to fit every situation.

Scn has no integrity but demands integrity of its parishoners.

What Scn really means when they use the word "integrity" is OBEDIENCE.

Scn doesn't need or use a dictionary. They make up the definitions as they go along.

Scientology definition for INTEGRITY is: "The behavior and actions of Scientology"

Dark Phoenix
24th July 2009, 01:10 AM
There are many conceptions you have to put on hold when you buy into Scientology "Integrity" is just one of them. Hubbard's mind control package including an imaginary war against imaginary enemies to make it easier to justify tossing conditions such as Integrity, compassion, love, empathy, est. to the wind.

You are fighting a war after all .... for mankind's survival, none the less.

Spot on Chuck. Another very relavant quote, poster elsewhere in here, and prob posted by you. I will paraphraz:

" we are not dealing with abnormal people in a normal situation. What we are really dealin wkith is normal peplok iabnormal sitiation"

To both extend and reinforce Chucks point, namely the self-righteous disregard, disrepect for certain key human qualtifies, result

How can you possibly expect something as precious and noble as your own personal integrity to have any chance of surivival in something so hideously ugly; so rotten with corruption; so despicably gorged on it's own greed, it's sickening. And no, I'm not talking about Kenghis Khan, though there is a striking similarity in character. I'm talking something so utterly contemptous and willfully disdainful of all humanity and all that it means to be human; kindness, empathy, gentleness,forgiveness are regarded with repulsion and malice. I would call it, quite precisely, a malignant obomination. I can

Doom
24th July 2009, 02:28 AM
Thank you everyone for your Ideas and points.

I think that the point I failed my integrity was when and despite what my eyes and ears were telling me, I persisted with the order for twenty minutes (causing more distress to that poor lady) also that lady was a friend personally.
So in a way not only had I shown a lack of respect for myself but also her, and the only thing in that situation that would have made it ok in my mind was as soon as I saw her and saw the pain in her eyes was send for the staff section officer right then.

So if I follow the line back to the first time I violated my integrity and think how did I get to this point(with this lady and all that happend), Its like a stair case every time I violate I go down one step, and every time I dont I stay on the level, so to fix this its like I have to climb the steps I have taken down all at once to set it right, and all the effort that it takes to do that.

I guess that is part of the trap, Its easy when you are new and eager to take one too many of those downward steps and find that the effort needed to get your integrity back is just too hard or too big or too unconfrontable, and end up having "sold your soul" and seemingly have no recourse.

The price the CofS demands for Leaving is everything, how is that right?
Have a good hard look at that, use your own integrity.

Doom
24th July 2009, 02:47 AM
Doom,

I read your story and I don't actually see how it was that you lost your integrity. You told off that SOB and consequently the girl was taken care of. I cherish the memory of those rare moments when I too fought for the individual in spite of the consequences.

Integrity does though take quite a beating inside that madhouse.

I found it hard , at times, to determine what was right. Would my decision, on any given matter, aid the "Cause" or would I become "reasonable" and aid the individual...could I possibly consider his needs and desires if these conflicted with that of the "Cause's"needs and...stats?

There was a constant struggle within me regarding this. Most of the times I just surrendered to the group's demands. After all, who was I? I processed a "Reactive Mind." I might have had "OWs" or perhaps the last conversation I had had with my dad caused me to become "PTS!" These and other such dogmas--which I had accepted as ultimate truths-- always made me flinch if I dared to go against current.

The brainwashing was complete. The code words and phrases were in place: I was out ethics, a DB, had a Reactive mind, was off purpose or a down-stat etc. if I ever failed to perform my duties within the cult.

It did not matter though that someone would utter the "code words/phrases" to me...these had already been deeply implanted in my mind. I was my own monitor now, that synthetic little voice reprimanded me for thinking outside the "church's" little box. Their insidious indoctrination had by now overtaken my reasoning.

It took me a couple of years, after being out, to admit to myself that I had been BRAINWASHED! This was one of the most difficult things that I had to face.

TP
Thanks TP your example really shines and makes me see a little further into the darker areas of my life.

Also made me see that what the CofS destroys for control, Is the first and second dynamic (for want of a better term) and if you understand the dynamics its not possible to exist correctly on the higher dynamics (3,4,5,6,7 and 8) without having a strong foundation in your first and second.:grouch:

thanks TP

Doom
24th July 2009, 02:54 AM
Spot on Chuck. Another very relavant quote, poster elsewhere in here, and prob posted by you. I will paraphraz:

" we are not dealing with abnormal people in a normal situation. What we are really dealin wkith is normal peplok iabnormal sitiation"

To both extend and reinforce Chucks point, namely the self-righteous disregard, disrepect for certain key human qualtifies, result

How can you possibly expect something as precious and noble as your own personal integrity to have any chance of surivival in something so hideously ugly; so rotten with corruption; so despicably gorged on it's own greed, it's sickening. And no, I'm not talking about Kenghis Khan, though there is a striking similarity in character. I'm talking something so utterly contemptous and willfully disdainful of all humanity and all that it means to be human; kindness, empathy, gentleness,forgiveness are regarded with repulsion and malice. I would call it, quite precisely, a malignant obomination. I can

Wow you go girl, great point"a malignant obomination."
Did it in three words,and yes it is like you trade your moral compass in for the approved version (like we dont already have an idea of right and wrong).

Thanks DP

Illegal Alien
24th July 2009, 03:49 AM
"Integrity" is a loaded word. Bringing it down to its most basic though, if "integrity" had precedence, value and/or importance in Scn, we would have had an entirely different scene within the CofS, and there wouldn't be the thousands still hurting over what so many let occur and/or contributed to - Despite the heinous 'activity' of LRH and DM, it can't all be put down to them. The 'machine' that was and is, couldn't have been and wouldn't be, if the individuals involved practiced what they preached in regard to "integrity".

Carmel you have a way with words, that's exactly it. :thumbsup:

Doom
24th July 2009, 03:52 AM
Carmel you have a way with words, that's exactly it. :thumbsup:

Agreed, I'll second that !:thumbsup:

Mark A. Baker
25th July 2009, 01:03 AM
Thank you everyone for your Ideas and points.

I think that the point I failed my integrity was when and despite what my eyes and ears were telling me, I persisted with the order for twenty minutes (causing more distress to that poor lady) also that lady was a friend personally.
So in a way not only had I shown a lack of respect for myself but also her, and the only thing in that situation that would have made it ok in my mind was as soon as I saw her and saw the pain in her eyes was send for the staff section officer right then.


A. In a perfect world you wouldn't have had to argue with some idiot in order to get her medical attention.

B. She got the attention when she did because of your intervention.

C. You learned from the experience something of the importance of ALWAYS MAINTAINING YOUR OWN INTEGRITY.

D. Should there ever be a "next time" you'll be better prepared to deal with the situation at hand.

:thumbsup:


Mark A. Baker

Blue Spirit
25th July 2009, 09:29 PM
Doom, I applaud your integrity in that situation.

Carmel, you certainly "hit the nail on the head" with your statement.
(does that idiom communicate, or do I need to look up the
Aussie Lingo for it ?)

LRH had the truth about Integrity in his article on the subject, but
few could confront his insane activities in person or his insane
Missed Withholds outbursts, so didn't apply it at the top where it
needed applying.
Or take LRH by the arm and say we are going into session and get
those withholds off, like he said to do with overworked executives
when they needed it.
After getting rid of a few who did this, I believe he'd have come to his senses.

I still think of Quentin who couldn't go to his father and say simply:
"I'm out of here, and I'm going to become an airline pilot, as that's my dream."

Regarding LRH, many would say he was too ingrained in his Overt patterns to change. I couldn't argue the point.

Veda, I think that's your cue ! :omg:

Camille M.
26th July 2009, 03:50 AM
Good riddle. Integrity, It is something you learn about in Scientology and something you start using properly on your way out. Integrity is how I think most of us ended up here. :thumbsup: :happydance: :happydance: Yvonne

Doom
26th July 2009, 12:19 PM
A. In a perfect world you wouldn't have had to argue with some idiot in order to get her medical attention.

B. She got the attention when she did because of your intervention.

C. You learned from the experience something of the importance of ALWAYS MAINTAINING YOUR OWN INTEGRITY.

D. Should there ever be a "next time" you'll be better prepared to deal with the situation at hand.

:thumbsup:


Mark A. Baker
Thank you mate, you are the "glass is half full" sort of person, I thank you for your optimisim.:thumbsup:

Doom
26th July 2009, 12:31 PM
Doom, I applaud your integrity in that situation.

Carmel, you certainly "hit the nail on the head" with your statement.
(does that idiom communicate, or do I need to look up the
Aussie Lingo for it ?)

LRH had the truth about Integrity in his article on the subject, but
few could confront his insane activities in person or his insane
Missed Withholds outbursts, so didn't apply it at the top where it
needed applying.
Or take LRH by the arm and say we are going into session and get
those withholds off, like he said to do with overworked executives
when they needed it.
After getting rid of a few who did this, I believe he'd have come to his senses.

I still think of Quentin who couldn't go to his father and say simply:
"I'm out of here, and I'm going to become an airline pilot, as that's my dream."

Regarding LRH, many would say he was too ingrained in his Overt patterns to change. I couldn't argue the point.

Veda, I think that's your cue ! :omg:
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter, also the point on Quentin is a good one, it appears that his integrity may have failed him.

As for the "hit the nail on the head" lingo question, It means that you did the complete opposite of missing the subject(Got it in one).

Doom
26th July 2009, 12:41 PM
Good riddle. Integrity, It is something you learn about in Scientology and something you start using properly on your way out. Integrity is how I think most of us ended up here. :thumbsup: :happydance: :happydance: Yvonne
OH you really "hit the nail on the head" with that one:thumbsup:
sort of ironic that they give you the tools to get out:duh:
makes the mind wonder what would happen if DM and his minions had a sudden integrity trip what would they do?:omg:

Doom
13th August 2009, 02:01 AM
Ok so this thread is now dying most likely because it is hard to connect the integrity thing to what is happening in the CofS, but this all started with one person who lacked the (balls, guts) integrity to say "no I won't alter that" or "that's not right" or even the "WTF", just to stop the first step the church (and even before it was a church) made in the "wrong" way of things.
I'm not saying that DM started it(the ground work of foot bullets was already well in play) but I think the way he's running it he will finish it(note to OSA staff, If you want to save your church look up not out, then you will see where the real SPs sit) and good luck to him, It seems nowadays he is doing a better job at fucking up the church than anyone else e.g. FREEDOM MAG. Integrity would have finished this reign of terror the first time he hit someone or the first time he shafted someone to the RPF back in 86, here is an eg for all those in anzo, DM walks up to Issac Peters(a large guy with a short temper) from the AO security and hits him........end of story.

So while this thread may be dying maybe in its last gasp, its last question would be, where would all of us be if integrity held true in the CofS?

byte301
13th August 2009, 02:25 AM
Ok so this thread is now dying most likely because it is hard to connect the integrity thing to what is happening in the CofS, but this all started with one person who lacked the (balls, guts) integrity to say "no I won't alter that" or "that's not right" or even the "WTF", just to stop the first step the church made in the "wrong" way of things.
I'm not saying that DM started it(the ground work of foot bullets was already well in play) but I think the way he's running it he will finish it(note to OSA staff, If you want to save your church look up not out, then you will see where the real SPs sit) and good luck to him, It seems nowadays he is doing a better job at fucking up the church than anyone else e.g. FREEDOM MAG. Integrity would have finished this reign of terror the first time he hit someone or the first time he shafted someone to the RPF back in 86, here is an eg for all those in anzo, DM walks up to Issac Peters(a large guy with a short temper) from the AO security and hits him........end of story.

So while this thread may be dying maybe in its last gasp, its last question would be, where would all of us be if integrity held true in the CofS.

We probably wouldn't be here since there would be no need for this board.

Great thread btw. Integrity is an interesting topic and I agree with other posters here about you being too hard on yourself. But then again, we were ALL too hard on ourselves while in the cult. That's how the trap was set up.

I just keep thinking of that girl lying in her bed in pain all night. She was probably too hard on herself too. She should have gotten herself to a doctor right away. But then she would have missed her post, caused all kinds of dev t and she pulled it in anyway and was PTS to who knows what or who, and she sure couldn't clear the planet lying in a hospital room.

Yeah, scientology is quite something, isn't it? :no:

Doom
13th August 2009, 02:52 AM
Thanks for the support Byte301 (cool avatar btw) and you are right we would not be here and the CofS would not exist at least in the form it is in today.:whistling:

Carmel
13th August 2009, 07:52 AM
Ok so this thread is now dying most likely because it is hard to connect the integrity thing to what is happening in the CofS, but this all started with one person who lacked the (balls, guts) integrity to say "no I won't alter that" or "that's not right" or even the "WTF", just to stop the first step the church (and even before it was a church) made in the "wrong" way of things.
I'm not saying that DM started it(the ground work of foot bullets was already well in play) but I think the way he's running it he will finish it(note to OSA staff, If you want to save your church look up not out, then you will see where the real SPs sit) and good luck to him, It seems nowadays he is doing a better job at fucking up the church than anyone else e.g. FREEDOM MAG. Integrity would have finished this reign of terror the first time he hit someone or the first time he shafted someone to the RPF back in 86, here is an eg for all those in anzo, DM walks up to Issac Peters(a large guy with a short temper) from the AO security and hits him........end of story.

So while this thread may be dying maybe in its last gasp, its last question would be, where would all of us be if integrity held true in the CofS?
Oh, I remember Issac - a big warm teddy bear with a heart of gold (kiwi guy), - yep, he had balls!

The point you're making is a valid one for sure. If each individual said "no, that's bullshit", despite the consequences, then the atrocities and abuses within the CofS certainly wouldn't be. However, that's been a big ask, and the vast majority didn't or aren't stepping up to the plate - Given the 'hold' that the CofS has on its people, it takes a pretty rare courage to do so, and also a pretty rare courage to admit that ya didn't.

Panda Termint
13th August 2009, 08:17 AM
Yes, any sacrifice of personal integrity in order to maintain the sham of group intergrity is something we all have to come to terms with.
Doom, it's not so much that this thread has "died", it's probably more like we agree with you, appreciate what you have written and feel that there's nothing more needs be said. You nailed it, mate. :)

clamicide
13th August 2009, 08:27 AM
Integrity always had to take a back seat to "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics", and that deck was loaded so that it was always what the CULT wanted....Group, Mankind, MEST, Spiritual, Infinity etc. all "benefited" from whatever the hell they ordered you to do at the time. Personal integrity was just your silly little first dynamic that didn't mean jack up against the "purpose" of the cult.

Doom
13th August 2009, 12:55 PM
Thanks clamicide, panda and carmel for your pearls of wisdom, In retrospect I didn't step up enough sometimes but at other times like kicking the execs and regs out of the course room I did and I am here so I guess I did step up when it counted and said "no thats not right", no matter what the consequences.
I lost my home, my "so called" friends, my job, my money and now looking back it is worth it because the things that really matter I still have my awesome Wife, new and real friends, lots of support and I still have my integrity.
This is closer to freedom than I have been in a very long time.:buzzin:

Blue Spirit
13th August 2009, 07:24 PM
Well done DOOM !!!!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

byte301
13th August 2009, 10:14 PM
Thanks clamicide, panda and carmel for your pearls of wisdom, In retrospect I didn't step up enough sometimes but at other times like kicking the execs and regs out of the course room I did and I am here so I guess I did step up when it counted and said "no thats not right", no matter what the consequences.
I lost my home, my "so called" friends, my job, my money and now looking back it is worth it because the things that really matter I still have my awesome Wife, new and real friends, lots of support and I still have my integrity.
This is closer to freedom than I have been in a very long time.:buzzin:

Now that's a REAL success story!:clap: :clap: :clap: