PDA

View Full Version : Friday 21st August: Today Tonight Looks at Travolta's Dilemma



mate
20th August 2009, 10:07 AM
Tomorrow, Friday August 21st, Today Tonight will be addressing Travolta's dilemma.

Regards, David.

Stably Exterior
20th August 2009, 10:14 AM
Hi David

Just checking .... Is that Friday 21st?

Dean

Carmel
20th August 2009, 11:07 AM
Hi David

Just checking .... Is that Friday 21st?

Dean
Yeah Dean, tomorrow night on Channel 7.

Kookaburra
20th August 2009, 11:11 AM
If anyone has the means to record it for Youtube, that would be great. Then the rest of the world could see it, too. :)

Zhent
20th August 2009, 12:32 PM
Nice catch, I'll try to tune in and watch it.

Heres (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1202077/Is-John-Travolta-cracking-Its-just-grief--guilt--dead-son-tearing-actors-apart.html) a previous story on the subject. I'm guessing TT won't be adding any new information or insight, but the attention is always nice.

AnonShaw
20th August 2009, 12:33 PM
Please to share on youtube or vimeo if someone can record.

Blue Spirit
20th August 2009, 08:08 PM
I'm not much of a TV watcher and don't have cable, so where

is that show shown, just Australia ?

I'm in the U.S. BTW.

Happy Days
20th August 2009, 10:29 PM
This will be interesting to watch... thanks for the heads up :thumbsup:

FinallyFree
20th August 2009, 11:03 PM
I'm not much of a TV watcher and don't have cable, so where

is that show shown, just Australia ?

I'm in the U.S. BTW.

I have a dish - can you tell me the US time and date? I googled it but couldn't find any info on it. Would you mind PM'ing me the info? I would appreciate it!

Carmel
20th August 2009, 11:15 PM
I'm not much of a TV watcher and don't have cable, so where

is that show shown, just Australia ?

I'm in the U.S. BTW.
Yeah, it's a show produced in Sydney that airs five nights a week around the whole country.

I've heard the teaser for tonight's show a few times earlier this morning. They're saying "John Travolta and the Church of Scientology, and why he wants out".

It's another Bryan Seymour show, so it should be worth the watch.

Lohan2008
21st August 2009, 12:08 AM
Iis that show shown, just Australia ?
.

Don't worry Blue, us Ozzies will post the TT website story on Sat (friday yr time) :thumbsup:

dchoiceisalwaysrs
21st August 2009, 07:42 AM
What time is it on in Sydney?

Sydney is 14 hours ahead of NY and 17 hours ahead of LA

scooter
21st August 2009, 08:32 AM
6:30pm - 7pm.

Zhent
21st August 2009, 09:11 AM
Its on in 10 minutes :coolwink: (NSW)


Edit: Somehow I missed the beginning and only caught the last minute, I hope someone will upload the full segment. Nice work though David (he was being interviewed).

scooter
21st August 2009, 09:34 AM
Just saw it here in Melbourne - Mate did his usual stellar stuff and it's all bad news for the cult.:happydance:

No reply from OSA? I'll be they declined to comment.:yes:

Certainly "positions" the cult as a hate group to be wary of!:D

Dulloldfart
21st August 2009, 09:37 AM
What did they say about JT?

Paul

arhhhshit
21st August 2009, 09:40 AM
just watched it here. (just did my nails and the poish is still wet so typing with a pen, i'll make it short) The segment was very short. they had an ex-scientologist (out for 20 years) talk briefly about scn dis-beliefe of mental illness, they spoke about the consequences to travolta if he left, touch on the fraud case in france, scn vs. psychiatry. and that was pretty much it.

I told you I was trouble
21st August 2009, 09:47 AM
just watched it here. (just did my nails and the poish is still wet so typing with a pen, i'll make it short) The segment was very short. they had an ex-scientologist (out for 20 years) talk briefly about scn dis-beliefe of mental illness, they spoke about the consequences to travolta if he left, touch on the fraud case in france, scn vs. psychiatry. and that was pretty much it.


Ooooh thanks for that (sounds good) ...

PS Next time just put your hands in some cold water for a moment (dries/hardens the poish really fast. LOL).

scooter
21st August 2009, 09:50 AM
What did they say about JT?

Paul

That he's reportedly trying to get out but is scared of being "fair gamed" by the cult if he does.

Lots of stuff about how the cult attacks psychs and had footage of JT and missus doing the same.

Probably best if someone can post the whole thing.

Dulloldfart
21st August 2009, 09:51 AM
just watched it here. (just did my nails and the poish is still wet so typing with a pen, i'll make it short) The segment was very short. they had an ex-scientologist (out for 20 years) talk briefly about scn dis-beliefe of mental illness, they spoke about the consequences to travolta if he left, touch on the fraud case in france, scn vs. psychiatry. and that was pretty much it.

Thanks for the summary.

Paul

Carmel
21st August 2009, 09:55 AM
There was only speculation as to where JT is or maybe at.

"Mate" did his stuff, and it was all good :thumbsup: , but there wasn't any "new" news as such. It was more about where the CofS is at, and what JT as a previous 'advocate' of Scn may be facing, as opposed to what he 'is' facing.

littlebopeep
21st August 2009, 10:05 AM
just watched it here. (just did my nails and the poish is still wet so typing with a pen, i'll make it short) The segment was very short. they had an ex-scientologist (out for 20 years) talk briefly about scn dis-beliefe of mental illness, they spoke about the consequences to travolta if he left, touch on the fraud case in france, scn vs. psychiatry. and that was pretty much it.

Sorry about this. My dad left himself logged in and so I accidentally posted under his name. I would like to correct the statement and say that it was me painting my nails and not my dad painting his.

Cass

Zhent
21st August 2009, 10:06 AM
Tub3dYou/Clamosaurus/Alert has posted the video up! Fast work as usual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q00fuXHMlwc

Carmel
21st August 2009, 10:26 AM
Sorry about this. My dad left himself logged in and so I accidentally posted under his name. I would like to correct the statement and say that it was me painting my nails and not my dad painting his.

Cass
Ah shit, glad ye cleared that up! :hysterical: :coolwink:

Thrak
21st August 2009, 10:30 AM
Thanks for that. Nothing ground breaking but relevant info.

Happy Days
21st August 2009, 10:33 AM
The interview certainly reinforced what has been said.. breach in human rights and confidentiality etc.. quite good ... :thumbsup:

Let's hope John shows his hand sooner than later... tricky time for him and his family ...

littlebopeep
21st August 2009, 11:22 AM
Like others have said. I really didn't feel like there was nothing new said in the segment. But it was really good to see it being put out into the public some more.

I really hope John Travolta can find his way out. Having seen my family go through a similar situation I know he must be questioning himself and his faith very hard right now, and I hope he comes out the other side ok. He's probably one of my favourite actors, and just seems like a really lovely guy.

Tiger Lily
21st August 2009, 01:52 PM
Whether there is something behind this or it's just media drama, the exposure is good. With the Travolta name attached, viewership will be really high, and the public will become informed about Scientology's denial of certain illnesses and their willingness to release confidential confessional information. I'll bet a lot of current Scios even watched that.

I love watching the seeds being planted, watered, given sunshine. . . :happydance:

-TL

TheEvilOfScientology
21st August 2009, 02:27 PM
Whilst there's nothing new to most of us in that item, it will certainly be news to a lot of Joe Public, and that fact that it's a piece about one of the cult's most high profile celebs will help spread the word and the interest a lot more (I hope). Hopefully some of the other news organisations will pick this up and run with it.

scooter
21st August 2009, 02:39 PM
The fact that it goes out in prime time and the station itself was advertising it as their prime story for the program speaks volumes.

The only comments were by the journo himself and by Mate - the words that came out of the culties mouths were enough to give one an accurate assessment of the way the cult works.

It's just another story on the stupidities of the cult that promotes 9/11 and the Holocaust were all due to the evils of psychiatry - love the way that got mentioned in there.:thumbsup:

Scientology in this country at least is down and there's a queue of people waiting to put the boot into the prone carcass.

Alanzo
21st August 2009, 03:18 PM
I think public speculation on prime time news about Scn Celebrities contemplating leaving the Church of Scientology, with David Graham being asked his opinion about it all - are you kidding me???

This is a complete duplication of the "EX-SCIENTOLOGIST" message being reflected in prime time news!

Our message is now out, people. It has been adopted by the public.

We have won the PR war against the Church of Scientology.

Tiger Lily
21st August 2009, 05:06 PM
I think public speculation on prime time news about Scn Celebrities contemplating leaving the Church of Scientology, with David Graham being asked his opinion about it all - are you kidding me???

This is a complete duplication of the "EX-SCIENTOLOGIST" message being reflected in prime time news!

Our message is now out, people. It has been adopted by the public.

We have won the PR war against the Church of Scientology.

You may right Alanzo -- I googled "Lisa Marie quits Scientology" and the ESMB thread about it was result #2, and WWP's was #6. . . . .these were the ONLY results that said anything of the kind.

So it looks like we can create quite an impact!

-TL

Alanzo
21st August 2009, 08:15 PM
You may right Alanzo -- I googled "Lisa Marie quits Scientology" and the ESMB thread about it was result #2, and WWP's was #6. . . . .these were the ONLY results that said anything of the kind.

So it looks like we can create quite an impact!

-TL

I'm not saying it was ESMB.

I'm saying that you used to see a lot of the Church of Scientology's message reflected in news stories. The viewpoint was largely Scientology's viewpoint, and they were able to hide a lot of facts about Scientology.

But in the last few years, the news stories are WAY more well informed about Scientology. And Scientology's efforts to hide the facts are becoming non-existent. No matter how hard DM and Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun and others had tried to hide the facts in the 1990's and the early 2000's - they can't do it any more.

In fact, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder have turned around and started giving out the facts about DM and the true results of Scientology.

The PR war is over. The critics won.

And the only reason the critics finally won is because the facts about Scientology were able to get out, and people were finally able to access the truth about Scientology, and to make up their own minds about it.

Axiom142
21st August 2009, 09:35 PM
That he's reportedly trying to get out but is scared of being "fair gamed" by the cult if he does.

Lots of stuff about how the cult attacks psychs and had footage of JT and missus doing the same.

Probably best if someone can post the whole thing.

Well, now thatís interesting. Iím sure that the CoS will try and put pressure on John to deny this, if only through his publicist. But what if he refuses?

If they put too much pressure on him, it might be the final straw to make him decide to GTFO.

If they issue a denial for him, and he refuses to back it up in interviews or even denies it Ė this will be a disaster for them. But, then again, given that virtually everything they do ends up being a PR disaster, this probably wonít make much difference.

Well John Travolta, I guess the ball is in your court.

Are you out or are you going to continue to support an organisation that has become suppressive and against everything that you thought Scientology stood for?

Axiom142

smartone
21st August 2009, 10:04 PM
Yeah, it's a show produced in Sydney that airs five nights a week around the whole country.

I've heard the teaser for tonight's show a few times earlier this morning. They're saying "John Travolta and the Church of Scientology, and why he wants out".

It's another Bryan Seymour show, so it should be worth the watch.

Shoot. I've got a dish in UK but don't get Aussie Channels. Sounds really interesting though.

Lohan2008
22nd August 2009, 12:09 AM
David Graham who was a former high-ranking member of the Church of Scientology is calling for the religion to be "totally dismantled" because of the human rights abuses he says it inflicts on its followers.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/why-i-fled-scientology/2008/04/12/1207856911093.html

Lohan2008
22nd August 2009, 12:33 AM
http://www.travolta.com/

Send your cards to:
John Travolta
PO.Box 3560
Santa Barbara,
CA 93130-3560 USA

:cake:

dontscamme
22nd August 2009, 02:00 AM
Whilst there's nothing new to most of us in that item, it will certainly be news to a lot of Joe Public, and that fact that it's a piece about one of the cult's most high profile celebs will help spread the word and the interest a lot more (I hope). Hopefully some of the other news organisations will pick this up and run with it.

Absolutely! I thought it was a good solid story. We should not expect them to come up with something brand new to report. Hopefully Anderson Cooper and CNN will make an impact with the reports that are scheduled for next month.

byte301
22nd August 2009, 04:02 AM
Sorry about this. My dad left himself logged in and so I accidentally posted under his name. I would like to correct the statement and say that it was me painting my nails and not my dad painting his.

Cass

Thanks for the biggest laugh I've had all day!!

byte301
22nd August 2009, 04:05 AM
I'm not saying it was ESMB.

I'm saying that you used to see a lot of the Church of Scientology's message reflected in news stories. The viewpoint was largely Scientology's viewpoint, and they were able to hide a lot of facts about Scientology.

But in the last few years, the news stories are WAY more well informed about Scientology. And Scientology's efforts to hide the facts are becoming non-existent. No matter how hard DM and Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun and others had tried to hide the facts in the 1990's and the early 2000's - they can't do it any more.

In fact, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder have turned around and started giving out the facts about DM and the true results of Scientology.

The PR war is over. The critics won.

And the only reason the critics finally won is because the facts about Scientology were able to get out, and people were finally able to access the truth about Scientology, and to make up their own minds about it.

Truth will out as my grandma used to say. :yes:

I told you I was trouble
22nd August 2009, 04:15 AM
Just watched the video (thanks Zhent) ... it was brilliant.

Things are quiet (at the moment) and this was perfect to keep the issue in the limelight until the next storm hits.

Mate got all the important stuff in there, in the time available, he is very cool and very good at what he does ... and even though he was 'trained' by one of the nastiest organization's on the planet and he knows how 'it is done' (scio style) he just uses one tool ... TRUTH (that must really impinge on the current servile OSA guys).

:hattip:


Note to littlebopeep ... I do hope your Dad payed you well to 'cover for him' :whistling:

Royal Prince Xenu
22nd August 2009, 06:35 AM
I don't get TT locally, but I just heard about this from a third party, and the "interpretation" was that JT is seriously thinking of leaving. If the public are interpreting the message that way for themselves, then any PR move by OSA can only be another shot in the foot.

mate
22nd August 2009, 10:07 AM
Hi guys, thanks for the compliments, however, I only played a small part in it. Bryan did a magnificent job. BTW, I had no idea that he was going to run something on the CCHR's DVD, which is being delivered to all GPs (local doctors) in Australia, as I understand it. I was hoping that he would eventually do something on it, and now he has. For those who are not aware of it, the International President, Jan Eastgate, is an Australian. I don't think David Miscavige is going to be too pleased with Today Tonight.

Regards, David.

Kookaburra
22nd August 2009, 12:22 PM
I don't get TT locally, but I just heard about this from a third party, and the "interpretation" was that JT is seriously thinking of leaving. If the public are interpreting the message that way for themselves, then any PR move by OSA can only be another shot in the foot.

I think JT has wanted out for a long time. He has the dilemma of losing his family and having his O/Ws aired to the world.

He did send a pretty clear message to Co$ that he was no longer their poster boy when he did "Hairspray" and about the same time managed to get that very public "kiss" photographed and splashed all over magazine covers worldwide.

No-one will convince me that was an accident and JT had no idea paparazzi would photograph him kissing a man in a very public place.

skydog
22nd August 2009, 12:50 PM
I sure hope JT decides to leave. I remember he was one of the reasons I got interested/ stayed in the Co$. As far as I am concerned, I don't care if he is gay, bi or whatever-this isn't the 50s and as a society hopefully we have moved beyond that.

The fact that the disclosure of confidential information may be released speaks volumes about the "religious nature" of scientology.

JT, your friends will support you regardless of what you decide to do.

Good twin
22nd August 2009, 12:51 PM
I think JT has wanted out for a long time. He has the dilemma of losing his family and having his O/Ws aired to the world.

He did send a pretty clear message to Co$ that he was no longer their poster boy when he did "Hairspray" and about the same time managed to get that very public "kiss" photographed and splashed all over magazine covers worldwide.

No-one will convince me that was an accident and JT had no idea paparazzi would photograph him kissing a man in a very public place.

Interesting point, Kooka. I hope you are right.

Dulloldfart
22nd August 2009, 12:58 PM
I think JT has wanted out for a long time. He has the dilemma of losing his family and having his O/Ws aired to the world.

He did send a pretty clear message to Co$ that he was no longer their poster boy when he did "Hairspray" and about the same time managed to get that very public "kiss" photographed and splashed all over magazine covers worldwide.

No-one will convince me that was an accident and JT had no idea paparazzi would photograph him kissing a man in a very public place.

And don't forget the Kirk Douglas kiss. Look at his expression!

Paul

RogerB
22nd August 2009, 03:49 PM
And don't forget the Kirk Douglas kiss. Look at his expression!

Paul

If my memory serves correctly, in one of Capt. Bill Robertson's books he stated he (Capt. Bill) leaned on JT, threatening him with exposure on his gay background if he did not front up and become a public spokesman for the church.

I don't seem to have that book any longer . . . it got trashed with other old ugly stuff.

Does anyone else remember this reference by Capt. Bill?

RogerB

TheEvilOfScientology
22nd August 2009, 04:07 PM
JT still has Scientology links on his official site. If/when they go, I'll have more faith in the rumours.

NonScio
22nd August 2009, 07:37 PM
And don't forget the Kirk Douglas kiss. Look at his expression!

Paul

Surely our modern culture is decadent enough where it would'nt even
wink at Travolta being gay; the picture of Travolta kissing Douglas
might have been a shocking career killer back in the 50's but where's
the big issue with it today? In the Islamic Republic of Iran?
Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?

Some westerners might squirm a bit if he was into S&M or bestiality,
but even those would probably "pass" the modern "morality" code.
Indeed, being a cult member probably has more negatives with the
public than any particular sexual peccadillo.
The only thing I can think of that might get him into trouble
would be pedophilia; I doubt he's into that.

Travolta has enough money to hire however many security goons
he would need to keep the scientology goons at bay. If he wants
to leave, he should and can just do it. Besides, if scientology was
stupid enough to reveal something he told in auditing, that would
do more to keep people away from the cult than a hundred
anonymous demonstrations. No one wants their dirty laundry
aired in public; the spectacle of scientology doing just that might
be their final death throe.

Alanzo
22nd August 2009, 07:43 PM
Surely our modern culture is decadent enough where it would'nt even
wink at Travolta being gay; the picture of Travolta kissing Douglas
might have been a shocking career killer back in the 50's but where's
the big issue with it today? In the Islamic Republic of Iran?
Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?

Some westerners might squirm a bit if he was into S&M or bestiality,
but even those would probably "pass" the modern "morality" code.
Indeed, being a cult member probably has more negatives with the
public than any particular sexual peccadillo.
The only thing I can think of that might get him into trouble
would be pedophilia; I doubt he's into that.

Travolta has enough money to hire however many security goons
he would need to keep the scientology goons at bay. If he wants
to leave, he should and can just do it. Besides, if scientology was
stupid enough to reveal something he told in auditing, that would
do more to keep people away from the cult than a hundred
anonymous demonstrations. No one wants their dirty laundry
aired in public; the spectacle of scientology doing just that might
be their final death throe.

My thoughts exactly...

Dulloldfart
22nd August 2009, 07:43 PM
Surely our modern culture is decadent enough where it would'nt even
wink at Travolta being gay; the picture of Travolta kissing Douglas
might have been a shocking career killer back in the 50's but where's
the big issue with it today?

I agree JT being gay is a big non-issue. But Kirk Douglas looks like he is being kissed against his will.

Paul

Thrak
22nd August 2009, 07:55 PM
Plus he's Italian. Kissing like that is much more common amongst Italians and doesn't really mean anything except affection.

Dulloldfart
22nd August 2009, 08:19 PM
Plus he's Italian. Kissing like that is much more common amongst Italians and doesn't really mean anything except affection.

Oh right. Hulk Hogan is 75% Italian. Happens all the time. . . .

Paul

Dulloldfart
22nd August 2009, 08:20 PM
Plus he's Italian. Kissing like that is much more common amongst Italians and doesn't really mean anything except affection.

Oh right. Hulk Hogan is 75% Italian. And Al Pacino. Happens all the time. . . .

Paul

Lohan2008
23rd August 2009, 12:10 AM
I agree JT being gay is a big non-issue.
Paul

Ditto, like are you going to find any Scilons in the "Bible Belt" of America...

Thrak
23rd August 2009, 01:18 AM
Oh right. Hulk Hogan is 75% Italian. And Al Pacino. Happens all the time. . . .

Paul

I said common amongst not all do. I don't know if JT is gay, straight, or bi and don't care. But I knew a guy who was Italian and said "we're Italian, we kiss" and had no problem kissing a guy on the mouth and was nowhere near gay. My point is that some don't find this as being gay and don't care if people do and so you can't say because he has a habit of this, he's gay. What a bizzarre culture we have that we would even be discussing this. Who gives a shit?

Dulloldfart
23rd August 2009, 01:21 AM
I said common amongst not all do.

Fair enough.

Paul

I told you I was trouble
23rd August 2009, 06:57 AM
I believe it is his wife that may be the 'problem' re him getting out ... she seems to have put herself 'out there' for scientology PR wise, quite a bit and JT always seemed to do it in a much more reserved manner (almost as if he were being pushed!).

:whistling:

If and when he wants to leave, he will ... he may have to leave her at the same time though ... I suppose even celebs have to live in the 'real world' where scientology is concerned, and in the end it runs and therefore controls their lives, just as, once upon a time ... it ran ours.

Its nice to be out.

:yes:

RolandRB
23rd August 2009, 07:03 AM
Plus he's Italian. Kissing like that is much more common amongst Italians and doesn't really mean anything except affection.

But Italian men don't kiss each other LIKE THAT!!

lionheart
23rd August 2009, 10:40 AM
When ESMB was picking over scientology's part in Jett's death, it seemed many ESMBers felt it was unfair to do this to JT.

Isn't that what the TV programme was doing? Is it ok now? If so, is that because some little time has passed?

Royal Prince Xenu
23rd August 2009, 12:35 PM
I agree JT being gay is a big non-issue. But Kirk Douglas looks like he is being kissed against his will.

Paul

To me the whole thing looks spontaneous on JT's side and unexpected on KD's side. To me it's a non-event.


When ESMB was picking over scientology's part in Jett's death, it seemed many ESMBers felt it was unfair to do this to JT.

Isn't that what the TV programme was doing? Is it ok now? If so, is that because some little time has passed?

If memory serves correctly, I believe most of the argument at that time was blaming JT for sticking by $cn instead of seeking the correct care for his son. Watching the TT segment, it seems that "blame" is being shifted back onto Scn directly. And yes, the passing of time does lower the "barriers of taste".

Emma
23rd August 2009, 12:43 PM
When ESMB was picking over scientology's part in Jett's death, it seemed many ESMBers felt it was unfair to do this to JT.

Isn't that what the TV programme was doing? Is it ok now? If so, is that because some little time has passed?

I believe the majority of the protest was aimed at those trying to say that JT was a bad parent etc etc.

Kha Khan
23rd August 2009, 10:29 PM
Surely our modern culture is decadent enough where it would'nt even wink at Travolta being gay; the picture of Travolta kissing Douglas might have been a shocking career killer back in the 50's but where's the big issue with it today? Do you understand that this statement implies that there is something morally wrong with being gay? That, that being gay is "decadent," but "modern culture is [now] decadent enough where it would'nt even wink?"

Is that what you intended to imply? Or did you just word it poorly?

There are other words or phrases you could have used. "Open minded" and "enlightened" come to mind.

Alanzo
23rd August 2009, 11:10 PM
Do you understand that this statement implies that there is something morally wrong with being gay? That, that being gay is "decadent," but "modern culture is [now] decadent enough where it would'nt even wink?"

Is that what you intended to imply? Or did you just word it poorly?

There are other words or phrases you could have used. "Open minded" and "enlightened" come to mind.
Or "Educated", "Understanding" or "Tolerant", or even "Pan-determined" come to mind as well.

Alanzo
23rd August 2009, 11:18 PM
When ESMB was picking over scientology's part in Jett's death, it seemed many ESMBers felt it was unfair to do this to JT.

Isn't that what the TV programme was doing? Is it ok now? If so, is that because some little time has passed?

I made a lot of posts in that thread. I was - even for me - pretty adamant about it.

I've come to realize that there is no way to control this. People are going to speak their minds and they are going to say whatever they are going to say, and the overwhelming tide of public opinion is going to deluge everything in its path.

I still think that John Travolta has tried his best to present the best of Scientology to the world, and I also believe that he probably lives his life that way.

But there comes a point where the overwhelming effect that Scientology has created upon the world will not secure JT from being painted with the same brush that his Church has splattered.

And that is why he should distance himself and make his stand - for HIS IDEALS - which his "Church" has so consistently violated for so many people.

Staying with them is actually now a violation of his own ideals. Because of the Church's own track record - through no fault of his own.

lionheart
24th August 2009, 12:24 AM
Yes, I'm sure the main protest on that thread was an objection to using the Travolta tragedy to criticise scn.

There was a feeling that this was poor taste. I just wondered why some ESMBers were criticised for doing that whereas nobody has criticised the TV programme for essentially doing the same.

The only difference I can see is some small amount of time having passed.

Alanzo
24th August 2009, 12:33 AM
Yes, I'm sure the main protest on that thread was an objection to using the Travolta tragedy to criticise scn.

There was a feeling that this was poor taste. I just wondered why some ESMBers were criticised for doing that whereas nobody has criticised the TV programme for essentially doing the same.

The only difference I can see is some small amount of time having passed.

And what I said.

NonScio
24th August 2009, 02:40 AM
Do you understand that this statement implies that there is something morally wrong with being gay? That, that being gay is "decadent," but "modern culture is [now] decadent enough where it would'nt even wink?"

Is that what you intended to imply? Or did you just word it poorly?

There are other words or phrases you could have used. "Open minded" and "enlightened" come to mind.

I meant "decandent" in the sense that Oswald Spengler would
have used the word. A decadent culture is a culture which is
in decline. Decadence applies to many aspects of culture, Art,
Music, Literature, Religion, Morality etc.

To say we are in "decline" inplies a point from which we are in decline.
Spengler proposed that cultures are analygous to organic, living
beings. They have a birth, a youth, an "adulthood", middle age,
old age, and finally death. The typical lifespan of a culture,
according to Spengler, is about 700 years from birth to death.
Each stage has typical characteristics for various points of culture
such as politics,art, literature, music, morality etc. For the example of
morality, Homosexuality is typically highly non tolerated ("immoral")
from birth of the culture up to "middle age". "Middle Age" is
the start of a cultures period of "decadence". In the last 100-200
years of a cultural lifespan, homosexuality as well as other
previous sexual taboos are first accepted, then mainstreamed.
Spengler gives examples of various ancient cultures which
followed this pattern. Rome stands out as a typical example.

Spengler wrote that our own Western Culture was born in the
1400's (The Renaissance) which would put its present "age"
at around 600 years. That would put us well into the stage
of "decadence". It does seem to fit into Spengler's pattern.
Political economic systems detriorating and breaking down.
Old religious dogmas, old gods no longer followed, obeyed.
The old moral codes breaking down, ignored (marriage, family,
sexual behavior etc.) New religious sects (such as scientology?)
spring up like weeds as people try to restore some cultural bearings.

So, as far as homosexuality is concerned, during certain epochs
it is "immoral", during others it is no longer "immoral" We are in a
period in which it is not immoral. 200 years from now it may again be
"immoral". Without some deep religious conviction, it is difficult
for modern man to hold onto any moral absolutes...especially
sexual morality given our modern knowledge of biology, genetics,
body and brain operation etc. Restrictions against
murder, stealing etc are pretty consistant in all cultures
which strongly hint that these may be "absolutes".
Sexual standards vary widely among cultures which to
me implies there is no "absolute" when dealing with sex.
The particular culture establishes and enforces sexual standards
based on whatever it needs (physical, economic, population
densities etc,) at a particular time period.

Carmel
24th August 2009, 03:11 AM
Yes, I'm sure the main protest on that thread was an objection to using the Travolta tragedy to criticise scn.

There was a feeling that this was poor taste. I just wondered why some ESMBers were criticised for doing that whereas nobody has criticised the TV programme for essentially doing the same.

The only difference I can see is some small amount of time having passed.
The tv pgm wasn't hostile to JT nor his family - If anything they showed compassion and its main focus was on the stance that the CofS and it's members have on drugs.

IIRC, there were about three threads on the matter, at the time of the Jet's passing. There was scathing criticism and hostility of JT and KP, and it was within a day or two of them losing a child.

How you can compare the content of the tv pgm (regardless of the time frame), to that of what was directed to those parents from a couple of ESMB posters, is beyond me - Chalk and cheese!

Sassy
24th August 2009, 04:22 AM
Seriously, is there anything that John Travolta may have revealed in his auditing sessions that anyone would give a shite about if we heard it? What, he may be gay? Who cares??!!?? Sex with animals? Totally gross, but who cares??!!?? What??!!?? Anyway, my point's made with that.

I think he should just go for it. If this church opens his confidential files and discloses his personal information, they're done. Period. Who would/could ever trust them again? If his wife wants to stay in & they can't be together, that will be close to the final nail in the church's coffin too. Why would a non-scio spouse not be able to stay with their scio spouse??? If she stays in & he can't see his daughter, it would probably kill him. People will likely not understand and the church will have to do some fancy footwork.

Regardless, I think he & Kelly Preston seem like incredible parents and have beautiful children. My heart aches still that they lost their son at such an early age, and while they may believe that Jett just "dropped his body", I believe that his death was not in vain & will help expose this church and/or force them to change their stance regarding medications for those who truly need it, i.e. Jett.

mate
24th August 2009, 06:16 AM
I think that many of those who are posting on this thread, are making the mistake of assuming that celebrities are treated like non-celebrity public scientologists and staff. This is not the case. Celebrities are considered special and treated as such. If a celebrity wishes to leave, then he just withdraws, usually gradually. There will of course, be attempts to recover them but it is low key without any threats. James Packer is a good example. He is out but is able to maintain a good relationship with Cruise. Of course, if a celebrity becomes a hostile outspoken critic of scientology, like Jason Beghe, then Fair Game kicks in.

There is no doubt in my mind, that John Travolta, who has already started to withdraw, will continue to do so and more so.

Regards, David.

Thrak
24th August 2009, 06:27 AM
I agree. Crossing the Rubicon for him would be to speak out. We'll see if he's willing to do that.

uniquemand
24th August 2009, 07:53 AM
I think that many of those who are posting on this thread, are making the mistake of assuming that celebrities are treated like non-celebrity public scientologists and staff. This is not the case. Celebrities are considered special and treated as such. If a celebrity wishes to leave, then he just withdraws, usually gradually. There will of course, be attempts to recover them but it is low key without any threats. James Packer is a good example. He is out but is able to maintain a good relationship with Cruise. Of course, if a celebrity becomes a hostile outspoken critic of scientology, like Jason Beghe, then Fair Game kicks in.

There is no doubt in my mind, that John Travolta, who has already started to withdraw, will continue to do so and more so.

Regards, David.

Oh, David, I hope so, for his sake. I hope he finds peace without suicide. This is my great fear for Travolta. He seems to have a good heart. If he comes out of the Church, and has to face all the acrimony and recrimination that go along with having been a Scientology Poster-Boy for so many years, and on top of that having lost his child, blaming himself or "caving in" concerning how he's been used to manipulate so many people: I am gravely concerned for how a good person faces such things. It's hard enough for ex-staff or SO, but they can at least be anonymous. Travolta cannot.

I really hope he weathers the storm and comes out the other side, I just hope the world is not cruel to him, on top of the personal demons he'll have to face.

I told you I was trouble
24th August 2009, 08:24 AM
I think that many of those who are posting on this thread, are making the mistake of assuming that celebrities are treated like non-celebrity public scientologists and staff. This is not the case. Celebrities are considered special and treated as such. If a celebrity wishes to leave, then he just withdraws, usually gradually. There will of course, be attempts to recover them but it is low key without any threats. James Packer is a good example. He is out but is able to maintain a good relationship with Cruise. Of course, if a celebrity becomes a hostile outspoken critic of scientology, like Jason Beghe, then Fair Game kicks in.

There is no doubt in my mind, that John Travolta, who has already started to withdraw, will continue to do so and more so.

Regards, David.

Agreed, they are certainly treated very differently.

Even celebs and/or their families and friends can read the internet though and must realize they are being used (they are only 'allowed' to leave and then maintain scientology relationships because it suits the church of scientology for PR reasons ... ask Nicole Kidman).

:eyeroll:

NonScio
24th August 2009, 05:34 PM
Oh, David, I hope so, for his sake. I hope he finds peace without suicide. This is my great fear for Travolta. He seems to have a good heart. If he comes out of the Church, and has to face all the acrimony and recrimination that go along with having been a Scientology Poster-Boy for so many years, and on top of that having lost his child, blaming himself or "caving in" concerning how he's been used to manipulate so many people: I am gravely concerned for how a good person faces such things. It's hard enough for ex-staff or SO, but they can at least be anonymous. Travolta cannot.

I really hope he weathers the storm and comes out the other side, I just hope the world is not cruel to him, on top of the personal demons he'll have to face.

Well, if Travolta finds himself wracked with guilt over not only the
damage scientology has caused to his family, but over those he's
influenced to get in the cult; perhaps he can do some sort of
"amends" project.

Perhaps he could finance some sort of "underground railway" for those
long term slaves of the cult who seek escape. Safe houses with
paid security and all that. Guarantee a one year rehabilitation
for runaways. Secure, decent housing, food and clothing.
Some sort of meaningful work at least at minimum wage.
Perhaps some assistance finding a better paying job to
allow the refugee to restablish in the "wog" economy.

How much money has Travolta given to the cult over the years.
Money used to aid and abet the cult's nefarious deeds.
$25,000,000 ?

$25,000,000 could provide $25,000 assistance to 1,000
runaways. Ex scientologists are used to privation and getting
by on the minimum, so I would guess that $25 million could
help many more than 1,000 escapees. I would think such
an action would go far to begin to undo the damage
he had done over the years.

As to the death of his son, I don't know how he deal with that.
Certainly the pain and guilt may be part of the penance.
Life brings many trials and tragedies. Those with real
character pick up the pieces and go on after a personal disaster.