False Memories Anyone?

[Boojuum]

Hi

I just heard a lecture by Elizabeth Loftus that explained a great deal about how false memories can be created yet seem exceptionally real and even impact how we conduct our lives. Her studies appear to be scientifically valid. She has served as an expert witness on many legal cases to refute eye-witness accounts based on memory. One of her key areas of expertise is in refuting "previously suppressed" memories of child abuse. She addresses hynotism accuracy as well.

Fellow ex's might appreciate the talk:

http://fora.tv/2009/07/14/Elizabeth_Loftus_Whats_the_Matter_with_Memory

[HCObringOrder?]

Without listening to the link, this reminds me of a Looooooong thread on ARS a while ago.
Zinj, Arnie, and several others, if that was not a "false memory".
Maybe even Alanzo.
This is a definite Can O Worms with many parts and pieces for folks to discuss about.

Meanwhile I trust my own memory truth meter, unless someone else has the pics. :D

[Voltaire's Child]

Hi

I just heard a lecture by Elizabeth Loftus that explained a great deal about how false memories can be created yet seem exceptionally real and even impact how we conduct our lives. Her studies appear to be scientifically valid. She has served as an expert witness on many legal cases to refute eye-witness accounts based on memory. One of her key areas of expertise is in refuting "previously suppressed" memories of child abuse. She addresses hynotism accuracy as well.

Fellow ex's might appreciate the talk:

http://fora.tv/2009/07/14/Elizabeth_Loftus_Whats_the_Matter_with_Memory

Hubbard covered that, also, when he wrote about dub in.

[programmer_guy]

Hubbard covered that, also, when he wrote about dub in.

It's not "dub-in" (according to Scientology) if the PC has an F/N and a cog and passes the examiner.
You keep saying this whenever this subject comes up BUT it doesn't happen that way in Scientology.

[programmer_guy]

Boojuum,

This is very interesting.
I am listening to this.

I believe her BUT her example of Hillary's supposed recall of an incident is a bad example.
Politicians are notorious liars... and Hillary is one of them.

However, thanks for the link. I agree with it on the whole idea and her research.

[Voltaire's Child]

It's not "dub-in" (according to Scientology) if the PC has an F/N and a cog and passes the examiner.
You keep saying this whenever this subject comes up BUT it doesn't happen that way in Scientology.

No, that doesn't mean it isn't dub in. It just means there's nothing to HANDLE (if they f/n). Dub in - the phenomenon- is dub in. Same as with psychologists whose patients have recollections of things that never happened at all- just because they don't climb down the guy's throat and tell him he's imagining it (which happens fairly often in therapy) doesn't mean they don't think he's imagining it or that he's not imagining it.

The "handling" and C/Sing of dub in may change from situation to situation, such as the way you've described here- but it doesn't mean that it's not dub in. Dub in is dub in.

[Voltaire's Child]

I told John the Wonderhusband of this exchange. He was politely incredulous that anyone would say that F/N, cog, "passes the examiner" would make something not a dub in.

[Dulloldfart]

I told John the Wonderhusband of this exchange. He was politely incredulous that anyone would say that F/N, cog, "passes the examiner" would make something not a dub in.

Particularly considering the fairly recent "confessions of an examiner" thread (not called that actually) where an org examiner admitted calling anything that moved the needle an F/N. My own experiences when examining were that maybe 30-40% of after-session exams at Saint Hill and ITO F/Ned. I HATED doing after-session exams.

Paul

[nexus100]

A reasonable way to look at memory is there are no "false" memories. There isn't anything anyone thinks of that is not true to that person's reality. Since there is no "blanket" reality, meaining agreement, each person is seeing exactly what that individual wants to see. It is not accurate, then, to say any person is not seeing whatever it is they are seeing. It may not be your reality, but it is theirs and every bit as "true" as yours no matter who shares it.

And since there is no time, really, memory is something created now. So it is real in the now no matter what has "happened".

The universe consists of a gazillion viewpoints that we focus upon and view from. Moving in and out of these viewpoints, creates the reality we "see". To "know" a reality is counterproductive if that stamps one inside it. The more free one is to move in space, viewpoint to viewpoint, the freer one is. The process of growth takes place by seeing from more viewpoints. And what you see is completely and absolutely up to you.

[SomeGuy]

A reasonable way to look at memory is there are no "false" memories. There isn't anything anyone thinks of that is not true to that person's reality. Since there is no "blanket" reality, meaining agreement, each person is seeing exactly what that individual wants to see. It is not accurate, then, to say any person is not seeing whatever it is they are seeing. It may not be your reality, but it is theirs and every bit as "true" as yours no matter who shares it.

And since there is no time, really, memory is something created now. So it is real in the now no matter what has "happened".

The universe consists of a gazillion viewpoints that we focus upon and view from. Moving in and out of these viewpoints, creates the reality we "see". To "know" a reality is counterproductive if that stamps one inside it. The more free one is to move in space, viewpoint to viewpoint, the freer one is. The process of growth takes place by seeing from more viewpoints. And what you see is completely and absolutely up to you.

If I envision you killing a family of 6 in new mexico and go to the authorities and get them to file charges on it you is that ok?

I mean if it's part of my reality then you should be fine with it even if it means you have to defend yourself against false charges.

I'm being absurd here but that's your bit of logic taken to an extreme. Some times an aberrant mind is an aberrant mind and no amount of view point conceptualizing makes these infinite delusional realities anything but delusions.

[nexus100]

If I envision you killing a family of 6 in new mexico and go to the authorities and get them to file charges on it you is that ok?

I mean if it's part of my reality then you should be fine with it even if it means you have to defend yourself against false charges.

I'm being absurd here but that's your bit of logic taken to an extreme. Some times an aberrant mind is an aberrant mind and no amount of view point conceptualizing makes these infinite delusional realities anything but delusions.

Except it isn't a matter of what is "ok". Just what is accurate.

[degraded being]

A reasonable way to look at memory is there are no "false" memories. There isn't anything anyone thinks of that is not true to that person's reality. Since there is no "blanket" reality, meaining agreement, each person is seeing exactly what that individual wants to see. It is not accurate, then, to say any person is not seeing whatever it is they are seeing. It may not be your reality, but it is theirs and every bit as "true" as yours no matter who shares it.

And since there is no time, really, memory is something created now. So it is real in the now no matter what has "happened".

The universe consists of a gazillion viewpoints that we focus upon and view from. Moving in and out of these viewpoints, creates the reality we "see". To "know" a reality is counterproductive if that stamps one inside it. The more free one is to move in space, viewpoint to viewpoint, the freer one is. The process of growth takes place by seeing from more viewpoints. And what you see is completely and absolutely up to you.

The "memory" may be processed in the same part of the brain whether it really happened or not (I do not actaully know - I am not a brain/memory expert).
But A memory can be true or not. That is, true *to* sonething that actally happened, generally, or in detail, or it can be not true to what happened, in greater or lesser detail.
The (subjective) reality of it may be important in court, to determine if someone is deliberately lying but other than than, a persons subjective reality is not important. What is important is whether or not their memory is true *to* objective reality.

[La La Lou Lou]

Well I think it was a very interesting lecture.

Perhaps I wasnt experiencing real memories in session. It was the emotional content that made them seem real. Now I can see that that proves nothing.

R3R is designed to make you recall stuff wheather it's there or not. 'Recall an earlier incident that might have caused you to feel trapped by a hideous cult'....etc. Just the sort of command that would do the job of finding false memories.

Thanks, that helped! I know that Ive run some very disturbing incidents, that I cant say happened, not just because they were before I was born, but because I dont quite feel they did, despite emotional 'memory'. After watching her lecture I feel a little bit more me, and less manipulated.

It also explains why some peoples memories are so diferent from my own. Totally different, with me forgetting that I stood on their toes and with the other person seeming a super hero.:no:



So thanks a lot!:yes:

[uniquemand]

Memory is not absolute! This is a disturbing FACT. It degrades, it can actually change. However, the content of the memory, in my opinion, is only relevant if it attracts the attention of the client. If so, discussing it will likely discharge something, regardless of whether it was based in "reality". BELIEVING the memories is not the goal. Discharging their ability to impact your current emotional state or limit your thinking is the goal. "Destimulation", or "extinction" of the trigger is exactly the goal.

[Voltaire's Child]

Interesting posts, Nexus.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

A reasonable way to look at memory is there are no "false" memories. There isn't anything anyone thinks of that is not true to that person's reality. Since there is no "blanket" reality, meaining agreement, each person is seeing exactly what that individual wants to see. It is not accurate, then, to say any person is not seeing whatever it is they are seeing. It may not be your reality, but it is theirs and every bit as "true" as yours no matter who shares it.

And since there is no time, really, memory is something created now. So it is real in the now no matter what has "happened".

The universe consists of a gazillion viewpoints that we focus upon and view from. Moving in and out of these viewpoints, creates the reality we "see". To "know" a reality is counterproductive if that stamps one inside it. The more free one is to move in space, viewpoint to viewpoint, the freer one is. The process of growth takes place by seeing from more viewpoints. And what you see is completely and absolutely up to you.

You can play semantics with anything including memory, however this is not a matter of view point or interpretation, false memories are basically thoughts of incidents which never happened and have been programmed into someone's mind, and they do exist as has clearly been witnessed by the victims of Hubbard's mind control con game.

[nexus100]

You can play semantics with anything including memory, however this is not a matter of view point or interpretation, false memories are basically thoughts of incidents which never happened and have been programmed into someone's mind, and they do exist as has clearly been witnessed by the victims of Hubbard's mind control con game.

It is tough to explain relativity if you accept that anything is not real. No matter how you put the idea that there is an absolute viewpoint it contravenes the way this universe actually works. Believe what you want, but it is much easier to explain the operation of this place and all relgious affliliations and beliefs if Einstein's ideas are also true in the spiritual realm.

[programmer_guy]

I told John the Wonderhusband of this exchange. He was politely incredulous that anyone would say that F/N, cog, "passes the examiner" would make something not a dub in.

IMO, most, if not all, of the past lives stuff that comes up in auditing is "dub-in".
There is no way out of that. Even though Hubbard had a bit to say in the PDC lectures about doll bodies, cat bodies, etc. It's all dub-in.
(Would you like for me to quote some items from the PDC lectures?)

When I was on staff and found out that Jeff Kovack (a reg) had blown and came back I asked him why he would doubt SCN auditing and he told me that, when he blew, that he thought when he blew that his Dianetic auditing incidents were all made up in his own mind (paraphrasing). And that is probably more truth than you will ever get from any FZ involvement.

[Voltaire's Child]

IMO, most, if not all, of the past lives stuff that comes up in auditing is "dub-in".

I know people who've correctly identified landmarks and people from their auditing recollections. So it depends.



There is no way out of that.

Well, there's no way for you, maybe.



Even though Hubbard had a bit to say in the PDC lectures about doll bodies, cat bodies, etc. It's all dub-in.
(Would you like for me to quote some items from the PDC lectures?)

No. I own them already. And I understand them.


When I was on staff and found out that Jeff Kovack (a reg) had blown and came back I asked him why he would doubt SCN auditing and he told me that, when he blew, that he thought when he blew that his Dianetic auditing incidents were all made up in his own mind (paraphrasing).


All of life is maya or illusion. It all works out the same. So don't worry, be happy.


And that is probably more truth than you will ever get from any FZ involvement

It appears that you think you're talking to a Free zoner. :lol:

[programmer_guy]

I know people who've correctly identified landmarks and people from their auditing recollections. So it depends.


Yeah, Bent Corydon once said something like that in a staff meeting. I was there when he said it.
This is the type of stuff that should be put under scientific scrutiny and not just believed from anecdotal stories.



No. I own them already. And I understand them.


Okay, what do you "understand" about the cat bodies and doll bodies that Hubbard mentioned on "the Whole Track" from the PDC lectures?
I can quote a few items and see what you say? Are you game for this?
Let's make a topic on this item on this thread.



All of life is maya or illusion. It all works out the same. So don't worry, be happy.


I didn't think that you would have an explanation about what Jeff said to me. I am not surprised. Jeff told the truth.

[La La Lou Lou]

The day or so after watching that lecture it still makes me think.

Its not just false memories, what she's talking about is manipulation of someones mind. Youre expected to recall past lives so you do. Youre expected to remember your pregnant mum masturbating, youre expected to remember Xenus little holiday scam etc etc. You end up working without sleep, money, only impossibly poor food, unable to have sex unless youre married...because you want to. On the RPF you learn that youre not fit to talk to other people because you are so evil, and you can feel the evil within you, a black chasm eminating a spiritual stench, you know you want to crash stats, that you are incapable of having an upstat, whatever the stat is. Pretty soon babies scream when you come near, perfectly well people sneeze when they see you and cows fall over in their field as you approach.

You get told what MU's do and pretty soon you get caved in because you dont understand anything anymore.

Yes its not just memories that got implanted in our brains, you dont need heavy electricity to implant people, a good scientologist does it all day long, without effort.

[Voltaire's Child]

Yeah, Bent Corydon once said something like that in a staff meeting. I was there when he said it.
This is the type of stuff that should be put under scientific scrutiny and not just believed from anecdotal stories.


Maybe for someone who wants to quantify it thus, sure. But if it's a spiritual exercise then it would be up to the person who has the alleged memory and he or she does not have to if he or she does not want to.



Okay, what do you "understand" about the cat bodies and doll bodies that Hubbard mentioned on "the Whole Track" from the PDC lectures?
I can quote a few items and see what you say? Are you game for this?
Let's make a topic on this item on this thread..


I did give you my perspective on that, such as it is. That and four bux will get you a latte at Starbucks, tho'.

I think people have had recollections of same but that they are not provable.

I personally love the idea of doll bodies but then again, that's because I like fantasy and fairy tales. :D


I didn't think that you would have an explanation about what Jeff said to me. I am not surprised. Jeff told the truth.[/QUOTE]

I did give you my perspective on that, such as it is. But that and 4 bux will get you a latte at Starbucks...

[Voltaire's Child]

The day or so after watching that lecture it still makes me think.

Its not just false memories, what she's talking about is manipulation of someones mind. Youre expected to recall past lives so you do. Youre expected to remember your pregnant mum masturbating, youre expected to remember Xenus little holiday scam etc etc. You end up working without sleep, money, only impossibly poor food, unable to have sex unless youre married...because you want to. On the RPF you learn that youre not fit to talk to other people because you are so evil, and you can feel the evil within you, a black chasm eminating a spiritual stench, you know you want to crash stats, that you are incapable of having an upstat, whatever the stat is. Pretty soon babies scream when you come near, perfectly well people sneeze when they see you and cows fall over in their field as you approach.

You get told what MU's do and pretty soon you get caved in because you dont understand anything anymore.

Yes its not just memories that got implanted in our brains, you dont need heavy electricity to implant people, a good scientologist does it all day long, without effort.


And I've heard of people who told their C/Ses that they didn't have Incident II.

I do think there is a lot of eval present in the OT levels. And there's a lot of indoctrination in CofS. Only the strong can stand up to it. This forum is full of such individuals.

[La La Lou Lou]

Fluffy, you have a point there, the stronger ones are the ones that can see through the evaluations and invalidations of 'standard' sighentology.

This board certainly helps to clear the mist fog and smoke away.:yes:

[Boojuum]

The day or so after watching that lecture it still makes me think.

Its not just false memories, what she's talking about is manipulation of someones mind. Youre expected to recall past lives so you do. Youre expected to remember your pregnant mum masturbating, youre expected to remember Xenus little holiday scam etc etc. You end up working without sleep, money, only impossibly poor food, unable to have sex unless youre married...because you want to. On the RPF you learn that youre not fit to talk to other people because you are so evil, and you can feel the evil within you, a black chasm eminating a spiritual stench, you know you want to crash stats, that you are incapable of having an upstat, whatever the stat is. Pretty soon babies scream when you come near, perfectly well people sneeze when they see you and cows fall over in their field as you approach.

You get told what MU's do and pretty soon you get caved in because you dont understand anything anymore.

Yes its not just memories that got implanted in our brains, you dont need heavy electricity to implant people, a good scientologist does it all day long, without effort.

Exactly, LLLL! you must have M9 w/c'd the lecture--which doesn't stick on false memories. It shows how we can be fed false memories. The lecture is freeing. As a scio, we're all pre-programmed into believing in this infallable time track which is endless and endlessly impinging on us and robbing us of our godliness. Well, what if it wasn't? What if the fabled time track only rarely impinges upon us and what's really holding us back is the simple stuff like integrity and making intelligent choices. ?!? Works for me. It's boring, but effective.

[Voltaire's Child]

Yep, La La Lou Lou. I really do think that I've really been privileged to meet some really strong decent people on this board and also on other forums. Smart, funny, and very ornery. My kind of people.

[Pepin]

IMO, most, if not all, of the past lives stuff that comes up in auditing is "dub-in".
There is no way out of that. Even though Hubbard had a bit to say in the PDC lectures about doll bodies, cat bodies, etc. It's all dub-in.
(Would you like for me to quote some items from the PDC lectures?)

When I was on staff and found out that Jeff Kovack (a reg) had blown and came back I asked him why he would doubt SCN auditing and he told me that, when he blew, that he thought when he blew that his Dianetic auditing incidents were all made up in his own mind (paraphrasing). And that is probably more truth than you will ever get from any FZ involvement.

To know what is truth....

After Scientology, I experienced Forgetting. I had completely forgotten some of the unbelievable stuff I had experienced doing NOTS.
Experience yes, not memory or daydreaming. It bothered me greatly that I had forgotten such amazing experiences.
About 20 years later, I began to remember some things... amazing things.
I had to track down a blown class XII I know to help put things in perspective.
it seems that it was a common experience to forget what we had done. It's not normal stuff in this world.
I think the real hypnosis is the song of disbelief sung by the world and I started humming right along to the tune of amnesia.

(It's got a beat and you can dance to it)

[uniquemand]

Don't question the concensus trance, Pepin. The first rule of fight club is that we don't talk about fight club.

[La La Lou Lou]

Qote....you must have M9 w/c'd the lecture--which doesn't stick on false memories.
(Boogie)

Yes, the clay demo took ages but it was well worth it.:lol:

LLLL

[fnx3]

Oh Wow! OK - when my eldest sister was in her 3rd year of a psychology degree she created/discovered a most awful, awful story of her own sexual assault at a very young age - she described this to my mother who then paid her $60,000 for some real estate ventures that she, my sister, was interested in.

Years later we have NO evidence or whatever as to the reality of said stories & in fact now that both parents are deceased we are left only with repressed memory "hearsay" - a very cold, thin yet powerful reality indeed.

[AnonKat]

The Power of Suggestion: How to Implant False Memories

http://sciencestage.com/v/32620/the-power-of-suggestion:-how-to-implant-false-memories.html

[programmer_guy]

The Power of Suggestion: How to Implant False Memories

http://sciencestage.com/v/32620/the-power-of-suggestion:-how-to-implant-false-memories.html

Thank you. I had seen that one before.

Here is a better recording of that talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il0u2s_WGXA

And another one on that same subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQr_IJvYzbA

[programmer_guy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recollection



False Memories

False memories result from persistent beliefs, suggestions via authority figures, or statements of false information. Repeated exposure to these stimuli influence the reorganization of a person's memory, affecting its details, or implanting vivid false accounts of an event. This is usually accounted for by source-monitoring error, where a person can recall specific facts, but cannot correctly identify the source of that knowledge because of apparent loss of the association between the episodic (specific experience, or source) and semantic (concept-based, or gist) accounts of the stored knowledge. An example of this is cryptomnesia, or inadvertent plagiarism, where a one duplicated a work that they have previously encountered believing it to be their original idea. False memories can also be accounted for by the generation effect, which is an observable phenomena where repeated exposure to a belief, suggestion, or false information is better remembered with each subsequent generation. This can be seen with the misinformation effect, where an eye-witness account of an event can be influenced by a bystander account of the same event, or by suggestion via an authority figure. It is also believed to influence the recovery of repressed shocking or abusive memories in patients under hypnosis, where the recovered memory, although possibly a vivid account, could be entirely false, or have specific details influenced as the result of persistent suggestion by the therapist.

[programmer_guy]

Memories: Constructed, Confused, and Confabulated

http://www.theness.com/memories-constructed-confused-and-confabulated/


Memories are malleable, they can be changed, fused, created, altered, and lost. They are susceptible to other people’s suggestions and leading questions. Memory researcher Daniel Schacter writes: “memories for individual events resemble jigsaw puzzles that are assembled from many pieces,” it is normal for people to “knit together the relevant fragments and feelings into a coherent narrative or story.” (Schacter, 1996)