Rathbun does it again...

[Rae]

This new post by Marty handled many unanswered questions I had. It's well-written but takes a while to get thru. Well worth it, in my opinion. From Marty's blogsite http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/


The Joe Howard Paradigm – tech outside the Wall
September 21, 2009 · 22 Comments

I encourage everyone to read what I call the Joe Howard Paradigm at http://www.scientology-cult.com/new-model-for-scientology.html

Also please consider what LRH once said in a similar vein:

“And I believe that the freedom of the material which we know and understand is guaranteed only by a lightness of organization, a maximum of people, good training and good, reliable , sound relay of information. And if we can do these things, we will win. But if we can’t do these things, sooner or later the information which we hold will become the property of an untrustworthy few. This I am sure, because it has always happened this way.”
From the tape, “What Scientology is Doing” 6 June 55, Anatomy of the Spirit of Man Congress.

I think my own technical training narrative supports this line of thinking.

I worked pretty hard for 12 years in support of obtaining tax exemption for the Church. My primary motivation was that it was called for in LRH’s estate planning which was designed to make Scientology available to everyone ultimately. His estate planning called for a system of checks and balances so that one madman could not lord over and destroy all of Scientology. When exemption was attained it took me about a month to confirm my suspicions that the checks and balances had indeed been usurped by a madman. The control was so thorough that to even subtly object would mean being shipped off to a gulag and made into a mouse. I got on my motorcycle and rode across the country for nine days. When I phoned my father from San Antonio Greg Wilhere intercepted the call – he sat for days by my father’s bed side who was terminally ill with cancer for this purpose. He begged me to speak to Miscavige. I did, and Miscavige pleaded with me to meet him in New Orleans. I met him. Miscavige swore to God he would cease acting like a madman, and promised he would stop abusing people. He told me if I returned he’d send me to the ship to train and move up through OT III (I was Clear at the time) since I had worked so hard and safeguarded the church forever and thus deserved it.

I accepted since training in and applying Scientology was the only reason I joined the Sea Org in the first place. Miscavige sent his most trusted Class XII Greg Wilhere to join me to twin with me and report on me. He sent Snr CS Int Class XII Ray Mithoff to audit/sec check me. Both have recently executed declarations under the penalties of perjury that they are DM’s top technical dogs and I am a lunatic who has no certificates.

Now, you have probably seen that I have copped to committing physical violence on staff members – on several occasions in 2001 and two occasions in January 2004. Mithoff’s and Wilhere’s decarlarations reminded me of some more physical battery I performed on several occasions.

a. I lightly kicked Wilhere in the shins on a number of occasions, just hard enough to wake him up when he fell asleep while “coaching/suping” me on TRs, and meter drills, and while auditing me.

b. I lightly kicked Mithoff in the shins on a number of occasions just hard enough to wake him when he feel asleep on me in session.

Note, since I left the Sea Org a number of others have reported similar batteries upon those two for the same reasons.

Because no one on the ship had any idea I had blown, but for Greg and Ray, and because they only knew me as IG Ethics, nobody fooled with me on study. It was just me and LRH as far as I was concerned. I absorbed it intensively because it was the opportunity I fought for twelve years to obtain. I never once in almost two years of study doped off. I demanded to and did TR O two hour blinkless – even though I had to look at a dozing twin. When it came to the meter drills, the Class XIIs couldn’t do them with me because their needles were painted to the dial. I had to sup myself on those too, using greenhorn staff whose needles reacted like normal beings. And – long before the Golden Age of Tech, and despite orders from the two Class XIIs I didn’t need to – I did the dating drill all the way to a done routinely with no flubs. That is the way I applied LRH because I was dead serious about thoroughly duplicating his tech and using it as he did.

When I started student auditing, another Class XII – Margaret Supak – C/S’d my auditing. Not long into Grade O auditing she sent me to cramming for “comm cycle additives” for asking a distraught p.c. “what’s up.” Of course, the p.c. told me and it was the first of many, many cases I would crack by simply using communication, my meter and trying to audit like LRH did. You might have noticed that it is ILLEGAL in the current Church of Miscavology to audit anything like LRH did in the many auditing demo tapes he recorded.

Well, when I refused the cram, Wilhere came in to handle me. He couldn’t. He had zero altitude or credibility with me for the outnesses noted above and because I caught him and reported him for destroying the Freewinds Captain’s marriage by constantly and covertly flirting with his wife.

Mithoff then laid down the law with me. He told me the numerous LRH references I provided to him stating to the effect that the only way an auditor can seriously run aground is by failing to understand what is going on with the pc before him, and that one must use two way communication (required by the auditors code) to be sure he does, were trumped by Class VIII data. I told him that rather than accept verbal tech from him, I was now forced to go study Class VIII. I listened to all the Class VIII lectures and read all the written references I had not already read on Academy training.

Of course I found out Mithoff was lying or simply hadn’t a clue what Class VIII is about – and thus no clue what Standard Tech actually is. LRH lays in with an atomic branding iron that Class VIIIs study all the tech and it is drilled and applied and finally one can simply sit down and “play the piano.” Just like he advised policy be applied in the intro to the OEC. You don’t argue one line of one HCOB against another. Just as you don’t argue one line of policy against another. Incidentally, that is ALL that DM’s technical hierarchy and international management have done for years. They produce nothing. They use tech and policy to stop all day long. And right when some enterprising soul does something adventurous like do an eval, or initiate a sane tech program, Miscavige will enter some blanket order that “evals are canceled” (actual DM order), or Snr CS Int Office can issue no orders (actual DM order).

When I left the ship I had trained through Class V Grad officially. But, because of my experience with the Class XII priesthood, I effectively did the Briefing Course and Class VIII. That is because Mithoff could not explain to me why a number of integral LRH lectures were not on the Academy level checksheets he and DM had issued in LRH’s name. Rather than limit myself to the 8-12 lectures on each Grade – and then again at NED and Grad V and HSSC – I did a computer search and pulled and listened to every lecture LRH ever gave that touched on COMMUNICATION AT LEVEL 0, PROBLEMS AT LEVEL I, O/W AT LEVEL II, ARC BREAKS AT LEVEL III, AND SERV FACS AT LEVEL 4 , etc.

My first assignment upon going to Flag to work under the RTC Rep in late summer 95 was to handle the ethics (including sec checking), TRs and metering of the Class XIIs at Flag. They were a piece of work – with only a couple of exceptions – because like Mithoff and Wilhere they couldn’t even keep their eyes open for a session, couldn’t sit still in a chair, couldn’t read a meter, all the while asserting they were the priesthood and could not learn another single thing about Tech – they were IT.

In the middle of all this, their (and DM’s) product Lisa McPherson and her tragic death took me off that project before completion.

Over the next several years more of their flubbed products were assigned to me to handle by DM because he had no where else to turn. That included a virtual who’s who list of Scn celebrities and executives. Nearly all of them I FES’d, C/S’d, examined, and serviced as Ethics Officer and Chaplain in addition to auditing because every time a Class XII either at Flag or Int got involved it was all about making themselves right for their own overt products. Miscavige not only condoned that, he ordered it in place once he saw that was the only way he could stop some serious squeeky wheels from collapsing and possibly hurting his image or creating an external PR flap. Suffice it to say none of them went the route of Lisa McPherson – quite the contrary. I handled many cases tangled up in a ball from overt L’s delivery. Because of time constraints and his necessity to handle direct requests from VIPs themselves, DM ordered me to Read it-drill it-do it on NOTS and the L’s. I later was able to complete Class IX training formally, but not before I handled a number of NOTs ball ups.

When Miscavige had his final psychotic break (which he never came out of) in November 1999 (see my St Pete Times filmed interview for particulars) he started targeting me and all of international management in bizarre ways (much covered in the SP Times Series). My attempts to continue myself up the Bridge were torpedoed by Miscavige – twice pulling me off NOTs with NO justification when he had learned I had arranged an auditor for myself. I audited hundreds of hours of NOTs without having received a NOTs session. I audited Tom Cruise from start to finish on NOTs without having received NOTs myself. And even when that was done, I managed to get onto the program – and while getting Tom through OT VI – and being his review and six month check auditor, Miscavige again ordered me OFF NOTS.

Meanwhile, Miscavige took over all TRs and metering passes at FLB through his rep office as the first phase of his Golden Age of Tech. They prolonged and complicated the TRs to the point where auditors were churned out who could ARC break a Saint in a New York minute. The metering coaching was so complicated that his metering comps were left with one certainty, “there is no way to know for sure whether something is an instant read or not.” And then the drills. He had a group of tech bustees putting them together. In the last couple weeks before release he had me and Snr CS FSO Richard Reiss testing the drills and correcting them for return to Tech Comps for corrections. Richard and I sent reams of pages of drills blackened with our edits and notes back to Comps. By the time the release event arrived, we had tested perhaps 60% of the drills, and had seen very few of our corrections back for verification. But, in Miscavige’s world, the EVENT must go on. Scientology is but one series of events for him (Hitlerian backdrops and all). There is serious out tech embedded throughout DM’s Golden Age of tech. For example, have you ever seen an auditor assess “buttons” on you back to the stone ages, and by the time you start taking them up, you are talking about problems you never even conceived of having at the start of session? I contend a simple “what’s up?” (Two Way Comm) with an eagle eye on the meter would have resolved 95% of those situations. In fact, I’ve seen it happen because that is Standard Tech, not hammering the pc like he was a defendant before the Spanish Inquisition.

Now, my coverage of Miscavige’s practice of Reverse Dianetics is well covered in this blog, as well in a segment of the St Pete Times filmed interview.

My point in all this is simply this: The Church of Scientology under Miscavige has created a priesthood of Reverse Dianeticists. The only way I escaped it was the circumstances of not being junior to it during my own training. It was me and LRH with no vias or interruptions. I had no sup, I had no Qual, the only people assigned to “handle” my training got in the road of it. I would not allow the apex of DM’s tech hierarchy (Mithoff and Wilhere) to confuse me with their warped interpretations. And today I would not let either of those blokes audit my dog.

Interestingly, the only “Scientology priest” I have run into on the outside also justifies his omniscience on his Class XII status. Eerily, he too possesses a signal inability to sit comfortably in a chair or read an emeter, and has twice been reported to me by pc’s of his for falling asleep in session. He inquired through one of his trainees about my post warning people against fooling around with Ls. I responded that the biggest problem I ran into with botched L’s cases was their having been run on tons of unreading items. This newly minted “Class XII” responded that he had no idea how I could have determined someone was run on unreading items. Need I say more?

Incidentally, the priest Class XII was so offended that I reported that two of his pc’s reported he’d fallen asleep mid session that he viciously attacked me for being a mere read it-drill it-do it Class XII. He told me I haven’t a clue how to handle Ls, since he is the only man in the world outside the Church with a full set of the L’s material. I told him I’d have a discussion with him on the subject once he showed me his carefully guarded holy grail. He came unglued at the suggestion that his priesthood of mystery be shattered.

I think my experience supports that the Joe Howard Paradigm may well be the best way, if not the only way, to break the Reverse Dianetics priesthood of Miscavology. People are all going to have to take a measure of responsibility for their competency with the tech. They are going to have to learn enough about the fundamentals to judge whether the person who solicits them to audit them has the quality of TRs and requisite understanding of the tech to warrant their own time and effort. One is not given that opportunity within the Church incidentally. One ought to have the freedom to exercise that judgment.

If, as Joe suggests, some enterprising souls set up Qual units devoted to training and correcting auditors, it seems they all ought to be independent so that the most effective make it because of their stellar products, and the shoddy substitutes die out because of their lack of results. Such delivery would not be too difficult – because the “secrets” of Class VIII and Class XII are simply the reverse of what I have known Class XII’s to be capable of: to wit, if your TR’s are as natural as the wind and your metering is a accurate as a laser, you have made it. There is nothing you cannot handle.

To allow anyone to attempt to consolidate and monopolize the tech could lead to another Dark Ages like we are attempting to break through today.

I maintain that one gets out of the tech what one puts into it. If one is studying for the purpose of attaining some status or to make lots of money, he or she is going to be a lousy auditor. If one is studying it for the purpose of attaining a higher level of understanding of mankind and its plight, he or she will attain something approaching that. If one is studying it because of a driving purpose to help others as best as one can, he or she will make a great auditor.

Unfortunately, the organized (oxymoron in Miscavology’s case) hierarchy of Scientology has proven unworkable. We can argue for three lifetimes whether it is because of some defect or omission in policy or whether it was an SP who foiled the best laid plans. It is irrelevant in terms of delivering the tech now. A Black (Reverse) Dianeticist has set himself up as Source and those weak enough to continue to tolerate it within management have bought into the program 100%. And believe me, there are nothing but weaklings left in DM’s vicinity. DM is continuing to alter training patterns and material so as to lose the effectiveness of the technology and in practice reverse its product.

It seems to me that it is incumbent upon those who care about the future of the technology that they do what they can to make it available outside of the control and continued alteration of Miscavige.

[Dulloldfart]

When I left the ship I had trained through Class V Grad officially. But, because of my experience with the Class XII priesthood, I effectively did the Briefing Course and Class VIII. That is because Mithoff could not explain to me why a number of integral LRH lectures were not on the Academy level checksheets he and DM had issued in LRH’s name. Rather than limit myself to the 8-12 lectures on each Grade – and then again at NED and Grad V and HSSC – I did a computer search and pulled and listened to every lecture LRH ever gave that touched on COMMUNICATION AT LEVEL 0, PROBLEMS AT LEVEL I, O/W AT LEVEL II, ARC BREAKS AT LEVEL III, AND SERV FACS AT LEVEL 4 , etc.

They were possibly following, to some extent anyway, what Hubbard said in LRHED 81 INT 20 Jan 1969 A VITAL TARGET:


The REAL design of training (if anybody would really do it this way) is:

Dianetics: Fast course on technique. Slide by on philosophic data.

Academy: Fast courses on technique. Learn all the motions.

SHSBC: A course taking in ALL the data, philosophic, with polishing of technique.

Class VIII: Sharp rapid STANDARDIZATION of auditing and case supervising with 100% gains.

When you try to standardize Class VIII style the Dianetic course, or SHSBC, the Academy courses, you slow people down to nowhere.

Paul

[Iknowtoomuch]

Marty must have a non confront to not just post here. Like anyone over on WWP give a fuck about what he says.

I do find it absolutely hilarious that neither Wilhere or Mithoff can stay awake in session though.:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

[Dulloldfart]

Marty must have a non confront to not just post here. Like anyone over on WWP give a fuck about what he says.

I do find it absolutely hilarious that neither Wilhere or Mithoff can stay awake in session though.:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

He's posting on his own blog.

Were Mithoff and Wilhere being kept up by Miscavige all the time? Not that it is a good excuse, but it may be a factor. Or they may have stayed up late playing cards. Or may have got eight hours sleep a night and were just lousy auditors. I'm not particularly trying to make excuses, but if DM was running them on some insane schedule, where to insist on getting enough sleep would be a one-way ticket to the RPF, it shows things in a different light. If. If. There's insufficient data here to decide.

Paul

[Iknowtoomuch]

He's posting on his own blog.

Were Mithoff and Wilhere being kept up by Miscavige all the time? Not that it is a good excuse, but it may be a factor. Or they may have stayed up late playing cards. Or may have got eight hours sleep a night and were just lousy auditors. I'm not particularly trying to make excuses, but if DM was running them on some insane schedule, where to insist on getting enough sleep would be a one-way ticket to the RPF, it shows things in a different light. If. If. There's insufficient data here to decide.

Paul


Ah, my bad there. I do understand why he doesn't post here though.

Good point. I know the feeling. I was never studentable or sessionable while in the Sea Org. I needed more sleep. But that wasn't acceptable so I was always too tired. And this was on "normal" nights. When there were no all hands or flaps.

[skollie]

There's insufficient data here to decide. Paul
Well said Paul.
We have no knowledge of why they were falling asleep. It made me uncomfortable reading him passing judgement on them.

[Iknowtoomuch]

Well said Paul.
We have no knowledge of why they were falling asleep. It made me uncomfortable reading him passing judgement on them.



If you really want to get down to it, as an Auditor, you have no reason for falling asleep in session.
This might have been while they were on the ship as well. Passing judgement is his choice because he has more info than we do.

[Mark A. Baker]

Ah, my bad there. I do understand why he doesn't post here though.

Clearly he doesn't need to. His blog posts are being picked-up and "mirrored" by others. And it could be viewed simply as an unnecessary & unproductive use of his time. He's already invited others to comm to him directly.


Mark A. Baker

[Zinjifar]

If he showed up here (again) people could ask him questions, which he could either answer or not, but still, he'd be unable to remove the questions. His own blog gives him more control and guaranteed 'positive' feedback.

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

If you really want to get down to it, as an Auditor, you have no reason for falling asleep in session.
This might have been while they were on the ship as well. Passing judgement is his choice because he has more info than we do.


Synchonicity. John and I were talking about this just yesterday. We were talking about someone else who'd done so. John opined that if a person's in the SO and is working all those hours, it's understandable. Personally, I think EVERYONE in the SO is under way too much pressure and that includes the auditors. I'm sure you saw a lot of that, too.

[Voltaire's Child]

If he showed up here (again) people could ask him questions, which he could either answer or not, but still, he'd be unable to remove the questions. His own blog gives him more control and guaranteed 'positive' feedback.

Zinj

Well, look at all the complaining people have done about him. Why shouldn't he decide to control how much negativity he has to deal with?

[Mystic]

There are clammies clamming clammies. Rathbutt is just another clammie.

[Zinjifar]

There are clammies clamming clammies. Rathbutt is just another clammie.

Actually, no, he's something fairly unique. Which is the only reason anyone gives a fuck about him. He carries his past like a backpack full of rotting garbage, no matter how 'ancient' he declares it.

Zinj

[Iknowtoomuch]

Synchonicity. John and I were talking about this just yesterday. We were talking about someone else who'd done so. John opined that if a person's in the SO and is working all those hours, it's understandable. Personally, I think EVERYONE in the SO is under way too much pressure and that includes the auditors. I'm sure you saw a lot of that, too.



I agree with you guys about the reason why it's most likely happening. I'm simply saying that Hubbard would never say that's a reason for an auditor to fall asleep. No matter what.
I find it funny that this is even happening at the very top of Scientology.

[Iknowtoomuch]

Clearly he doesn't need to. His blog posts are being picked-up and "mirrored" by others. And it could be viewed simply as an unnecessary & unproductive use of his time. He's already invited others to comm to him directly.


Mark A. Baker



That goes without saying...need vs could/should.
But he's still acting high and mighty over all other exes imo. "He doesn't need to".

[Veda]

Rathbun quotes from the June 1955 'Spirit of Man' Congress, but ignores the 'Manual on Dissemination of Material' of May 1955 which expresses very different sentiments. Surely Rathbun must have some inkling of the deceptively layered template of Scientology, per its founder's design. He certainly applied that template for years, and - it seems - is applying it still.

Along with his interesting (but limited) accounts of his experiences with Miscavige (which exclude those areas that neither he nor Miscavige will mention), Rathbun continues to present a picture of Hubbard, and pre-Miscavige Scientology, that is misleading.

[Mark A. Baker]

If he showed up here (again) people could ask him questions, which he could either answer or not, but still, he'd be unable to remove the questions. His own blog gives him more control and guaranteed 'positive' feedback.

Zinj

Your implicit argument is that HE should WANT to. Clearly he doesn't. You imply that he therefore has something to hide. That may be true.

It is also quite likely he has other reasons for not wanting to post. As I mentioned elsewhere, he may well regard posting on public boards as an "unproductive waste of time". In support of that concept, I haven't noticed him posting much elsewhere either, including on potentially "friendly" freezone boards.

Either viewpoint is alike in being speculative. Such speculations aren't going to resolve of themselves. Hence they themselves can be seen to be an "unproductive waste of time". It's an endlessly iterative process really when the ONLY ONE with the real answer isn't posting here. :)

Going for another round, Z? :dance3:


Mark A. Baker

[Mark A. Baker]

But he's still acting high and mighty over all other exes imo. "He doesn't need to".

IF there is ONE THING I've absolutely become accustomed to in over 27 years of being "out" it is "ex-scientologists" acting "high and mighty" over all other "ex-scientologists". I have come to regard it as self-evident proof of a person being in Hubbard's valence, or possibly just a jackass. [Apologies to male equines of subgenus asinus.]

It is BY NO MEANS a phenomenon unique to, or even more prevalent among, "pro-tech" or "pro-LRH" scientologists. This is readily established through simple observation. :yes:

Frankly, I was tired of the phenomenon after my first 5 years of being out. I was impatient with it for the next 10 years. Now, mostly I sit back, eat grapes, :stickpoke:, and watch the show. Perhaps, in another 10 years, I'll give up the :stickpoke: & watching and just go do something else until the fuss dies down. That would likely be the "saner" option, but I'm not quite there yet. :D


Mark A. Baker

[Ladybird]

There a number of out-points in Marty's self aggrandizing story. This one really caught my HPCSC fully hatted exec and auditor eye: "...and while getting Tom through OT VI... ".

OT VI is a course. A relatively short 3 part course. (each part counts as a completion for the weekly stats with certs, a success story and a big hip, hip hooray at graduation) It teaches self auditing so you can run solo nots at home(aka OT VII).

Did Marty read the materials to Tom? Supervise his clay demos? VI A is e-meter drills 5 times through. Did marty squeeze Tom's cans for him? Did Marty show Tom what an instant read is on Drill 19? Did he show Tom how to date/locate on drill 25? Maybe on OTVI Part B he word cleared Tom on the confidential materials so Tom could audit himself. Maybe Marty helped him with his clay demos? On part C maybe he roomed with Tom at the Sandcastle to make sure Tom was auditing himself right so he could pass his C/S video?

Did Marty give Tom Cruise the heads up that he would need to keep his nose clean and not look at the Internet or do anything "out ethics" or he wouldn't pass his mandatory 6 month sec check? Did Marty tell Tom that if he had any critical thoughts he could be kicked off OT VII?

Most people on OT VI are professional PCs who are not usually trained and are pretty clueless about the tech. Tom probably did need a lot of hand-holding. But Marty bragging about getting Tom through OTVI is just plain silly.

[everfree]

I agree with you guys about the reason why it's most likely happening. I'm simply saying that Hubbard would never say that's a reason for an auditor to fall asleep. No matter what.
I find it funny that this is even happening at the very top of Scientology.

Of course not. Breath on a mirror, baby.

[Mark A. Baker]

There a number of out-points in Marty's self aggrandizing story. This one really caught my HPCSC fully hatted exec and auditor eye: "...and while getting Tom through OT VI... ".

Your comments are noted, but frankly, assuming your comments are relevant and not in response to some unintended typo or other such error which MR may have unwittingly introduced into his account, would it even matter exactly what role MR would have played in assisting TC on his OT VI course?

Much of the body of the post deals with MR's attempts to "get trained & audited" himself despite the "stops" he encountered on the path. I see his focus as how he felt it necessary to "bypass" the org and assigned delivery terminals due to fundamental incompetencies & inabilities within the system.

In the post & elsewhere it has been brought up that MR played some significant tech role in delivering TC's "upper level" bridge. TC was a "high profile" pc. MR evidently delivered audited NOTS to him. He may well have assisted in some other aspects of his progress. My auditor on my "lower bridge" gave me various assistance out of session in addition to time spent with him on the cans, and I wasn't a "high profile" pc. Whether MR coached a clay demo, did "set ups", or wc'ed TC, or what he wc'ed him on does not strike me as a "burning - need to know - credibility breaking" kind of question. :no:


Mark A. Baker

[Mark A. Baker]

Of course not. Breath on a mirror, baby.

Zombies don't breathe. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker

[Ladybird]

I guess you don't know what OTVI is either Mr. Baker. I find that most people like you who are still enamored with Hubbard and his cult haven't really studied it. If it's all so great go join Marty and save scientology! Better yet, join the Sea Org and get that squirell DM out of there!

If you believe in it, why are you hanging around here with a bunch of SPs?

[Mark A. Baker]

I guess you don't know what OTVI is either Mr. Baker. I find that most people like you who are still enamored with Hubbard and his cult haven't really studied it. If it's all so great go join Marty and save scientology! Better yet, join the Sea Org and get that squirell DM out of there!

If you believe in it, why are you hanging around here with a bunch of SPs?

Nor, is it evident, are you familiar with me. :D

I was never "enamored of Hubbard", even when on staff at a Co$ mission. Nor do I have any desire to save the church. Never been one for organized religion, and I've been out for 27 years to boot. MR means nothing to me. Never heard of him until he popped up a few months back on the boards. As with any other "ex" I regard him as free to rectify his life as he sees fit free of abuse from the "peanut gallery". :)

The SO I have ALWAYS considered to be utterly risible as "Hubbard's private navy". It is clearly indicative of his own "unflat case". Remarkable that he could find so many willing to dramatize his case for him, really. Nor could I ever understand how others could see the SO so differently. :whistling:

Rather than worry about other people's overts, you might want to take a fresh look at any you may have committed. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker

[Ladybird]

You are a perfect scientology peice of work Mark Baker! Nice example of the arrogant scientology mindset and attempted use of introversion tech. I see your posts and I am not surprised to see you react the way you always do. You might be out of scientology, but scientology is not out of you.

Here is something I just posted on chat. You might find it interesting.

Hubbard set the game up so that those at the lower levels of scientology do NOT know about the scam. Most scientologists, including most Sea Org, are true believers, and just like at each level of the Bridge, a scientologist learns more and more as he moves up the heirarchy within the cult. The experience of a public is going to be alot different from that of a Mission staff, Org staff, Sea Org, CMO, INT, etc.

LRH wrote alot of references about games, and reading them now, after I am out, I see that he really did tell us exactly what he was doing, we just didn't see that he was doing it to us.

Remember the saying "The best place to hide something is right in plain sight."? I think that is just what Hubbard did with alot of things.

This is at the end of PDC lecture 39 of 12 Dec 52 titled
"Games Processing":


"Now the caste system of games consists of this -


The Maker of Games - He has no rules, he runs by no rules.


The Players of the Game - Rules know but he obeys them.


The Assistant Players - Merely obey the players.


The Peices - Obey rules as dictated by players, but
they don't know the rules. (and then what do you know?).


And then there's Broken Pieces - They aren't even in the
game but they're still in the game (and they are in a terrible
maybe, am I in a game or am I not in a game).


Now, how to make a piece (this is how to make a piece) -


1. Deny that there is a game
2. Hide the rules from them
3. Give them all the penalties and no wins
4. Remove all goals (ALL Goals)


Enforce their playing.
Inhibit their enjoying.


Make them look like but forbid their being like players
(look like god but you can't be god).


To make a piece continue to be a piece, permit it to associate
only with pieces and deny the existence of players (never
let the PCs find out that there are players).


Now out of this you're going to get a game". - L Ron Hubbard

[Panda Termint]

There a number of out-points in Marty's self aggrandizing story. This one really caught my HPCSC fully hatted exec and auditor eye: "...and while getting Tom through OT VI... ".
<...snip>

Just as a comment:

I think Marty is telling us that he did all the coaching and checkouts one-way so Tom didn't have to be bothered with "returning the flow" to a twin. Since GAT there's a hell of a lot of lengthy drilling on OTVI but I'm not sure if Marty is talking pre-GAT or whatever.

In any event, doing OTVI one-way takes about half the time (usually less) than having to do it two-way with those pesky twins taking up a valuable Celeb's time etc.

It's a Celeb perk that was quite common at that time as far as I recall. I think TC's personal pilot got the same VIP treatment too.

As an observation; the removal of any "coaching of others" actions in a Training step probably compromises full duplication of the materials and actions of that step. Coaching is supposed to be part of the line-up.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Just as a comment:

I think Marty is telling us that he did all the coaching and checkouts one-way so Tom didn't have to be bothered with "returning the flow" to a twin. Since GAT there's a hell of a lot of lengthy drilling on OTVI but I'm not sure if Marty is talking pre-GAT or whatever.

In any event, doing OTVI one-way takes about half the time (usually less) than having to do it two-way with those pesky twins taking up a valuable Celeb's time etc.

It's a Celeb perk that was quite common at that time as far as I recall. I think TC's personal pilot got the same VIP treatment too.

As an observation; the removal of any "coaching of others" actions in a Training step probably compromises full duplication of the materials and actions of that step. Coaching is supposed to be part of the line-up.

If the time of "celeb's" is so valuable, you'd figure the cult would have found a quicker way to scramble their brains by now, than playing the silly OT game.

[Iknowtoomuch]

Of course not. Breath on a mirror, baby.

:dieslaughing:
Oh shit I forgot about that one. Thanks for the laugh.

[Iknowtoomuch]

Marty has also used the whole "not using policy to stop policy" line. Okay, but then which policy do you use if they contend with each other?

[Zinjifar]

Marty has also used the whole "not using policy to stop policy" line. Okay, but then which policy do you use if they contend with each other?

KSW; you decide which 'truth' is more advantageous for Scientology (or you) and go with that.

Zinj

[Terril park]

Marty has also used the whole "not using policy to stop policy" line. Okay, but then which policy do you use if they contend with each other?

One interprets policy in the direction of expansion, per LRH.

[Zinjifar]

One interprets policy in the direction of expansion, per LRH.

That's what *I* said :)

Zinj

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Did LRH admit to unclear and foggy statements that required the proselytes to 'interpret'?!

News to me anyway... What happened to 'dublicate' ?

But the bit about not arguing one Hubbard text against another Hubbard text is well known... That was Hubbards handling of otherwise inevitable cognitive dissonance.

:yes:

[Mark A. Baker]

Marty has also used the whole "not using policy to stop policy" line. Okay, but then which policy do you use if they contend with each other?

Personally, my preference is: "not using policy". FULL STOP. Works for me. :thumbsup:


Mark A. Baker

[Mark A. Baker]

Did LRH admit to unclear and foggy statements that required the proselytes to 'interpret'?!

News to me anyway... What happened to 'dublicate' ?

But the bit about not arguing one Hubbard text against another Hubbard text is well known... That was Hubbards handling of otherwise inevitable cognitive dissonance.

:yes:

Or, alternately, the simple result of his own conflicted mental processes.


Mark A. Baker

[Zinjifar]

Or, alternately, the simple result of his own conflicted mental processes.


Mark A. Baker

Assume the worst and you won't be far off.

Zinj

[Terril park]

That's what *I* said :)

Zinj

True.

Posted mine before I read yours. :)

[Terril park]

Did LRH admit to unclear and foggy statements that required the proselytes to 'interpret'?!


Actually clear and precise statements which wisdom has apparently
been not-ised, as ised, or plain ignored.

Admin Know How Series 9 [ page 124 in new green vols] 4 dec 1966

EXPANSION THEORY OF POLICY

" Thus when you are interpreting policy, it should be interpreted only
against EXPANSION as the single factor governing it."

Wonder how many crashed and burned trying to word clear the dwarf on that one?

[Iknowtoomuch]

One interprets policy in the direction of expansion, per LRH.



But that's my point. It's still up for interpretation. And it's exactly what DM is doing.

[Lulu Belle]

You are a perfect scientology peice of work Mark Baker! Nice example of the arrogant scientology mindset and attempted use of introversion tech. I see your posts and I am not surprised to see you react the way you always do. You might be out of scientology, but scientology is not out of you.

Here is something I just posted on chat. You might find it interesting.

Hubbard set the game up so that those at the lower levels of scientology do NOT know about the scam. Most scientologists, including most Sea Org, are true believers, and just like at each level of the Bridge, a scientologist learns more and more as he moves up the heirarchy within the cult. The experience of a public is going to be alot different from that of a Mission staff, Org staff, Sea Org, CMO, INT, etc.

LRH wrote alot of references about games, and reading them now, after I am out, I see that he really did tell us exactly what he was doing, we just didn't see that he was doing it to us.

Remember the saying "The best place to hide something is right in plain sight."? I think that is just what Hubbard did with alot of things.

This is at the end of PDC lecture 39 of 12 Dec 52 titled
"Games Processing":


LB,

I totally agree with you about this.

I remember reading this in a mag (think it was Advance) when I was still fully indoctrinated in the SO.

And kind of getting a creepy feeling at the time that he was talking about me.

There are a lot of instances where LRH talks about him/us.

Like the reference about "the criminal mind"?

:eyeroll:

[Pooks]

IF there is ONE THING I've absolutely become accustomed to in over 27 years of being "out" it is "ex-scientologists" acting "high and mighty" over all other "ex-scientologists". I have come to regard it as self-evident proof of a person being in Hubbard's valence, or possibly just a jackass.


Mark A. Baker


Interesting. I'm not trolling here, but honestly stating my opinion that I have found you to be one of the most "high and mighty" posters on this board.

Just sayin.

Patricia A. Pieniadz

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Actually clear and precise statements which wisdom has apparently
been not-ised, as ised, or plain ignored.I believe you believe that...


Admin Know How Series 9 [ page 124 in new green vols] 4 dec 1966

EXPANSION THEORY OF POLICY

" Thus when you are interpreting policy, it should be interpreted only
against EXPANSION as the single factor governing it." Hmm.. That IS interesting! - "When you are interpreting policy".. Hubbards choice of the word 'against' is ambivalent..

Wonder how many crashed and burned trying to word clear the dwarf on that one?Dainty Davy knows what 'against' means!

:yes:

[Voltaire's Child]

I agree with you guys about the reason why it's most likely happening. I'm simply saying that Hubbard would never say that's a reason for an auditor to fall asleep. No matter what.
I find it funny that this is even happening at the very top of Scientology.


I agree!

[uniquemand]

Marty is carping about "Priest Class XIIs", all the while posing himself as the "real deal Holyfield".

It's strictly marketing, folks. If Marty isn't willing to discuss, I don't want to hear it.

[Pooks]

Marty is carping about "Priest Class XIIs", all the while posing himself as the "real deal Holyfield".

It's strictly marketing, folks. If Marty isn't willing to discuss, I don't want to hear it.


I agree with this. Plus I've noticed it's a common thing with many of the FZ types. There seems to be kind of competition as to who is most standard.

I think Marty and a few others have their Sea Org Class A uniforms hanging in a closet waiting for the day when they can take back over the cult and try to make it a kinder and gentler Scn.

Ha, As if!

[Mick Wenlock]

I agree with this. Plus I've noticed it's a common thing with many of the FZ types. There seems to be kind of competition as to who is most standard.

I think Marty and a few others have their Sea Org Class A uniforms hanging in a closet waiting for the day when they can take back over the cult and try to make it a kinder and gentler Scn.

Ha, As if!

snort! Marty a kinder gentler scientology. Naaah

[Zinjifar]

I agree with this. Plus I've noticed it's a common thing with many of the FZ types. There seems to be kind of competition as to who is most standard.

I think Marty and a few others have their Sea Org Class A uniforms hanging in a closet waiting for the day when they can take back over the cult and try to make it a kinder and gentler Scn.

Ha, As if!

If Marty ever gets to put his uniform back on and 'take charge' as Scientology's 'savior', it'll only be because Davey has 'retired' to Creston and is 'doing research' while eagerly awaiting Marty's delivery of suitcases :) (metaphorically speaking of course; it won't be Creston and there probably won't be suitcases)

Zinj

[RolandRB]

If Marty ever gets to put his uniform back on and 'take charge' as Scientology's 'savior', it'll only be because Davey has 'retired' to Creston and is 'doing research' while eagerly awaiting Marty's delivery of suitcases :) (metaphorically speaking of course; it won't be Creston and there probably won't be suitcases)

Zinj

Herr Dwarf has got all the bank account numbers, don't forget.

[Voltaire's Child]

I think Marty and a few others have their Sea Org Class A uniforms hanging in a closet waiting for the day when they can take back over the cult and try to make it a kinder and gentler Scn.




I hope not.

[degraded being]

Marty's the only one who is a real scientologist.
None of the class 12's are, and they all go to sleep in session.
No one at Flag is a real scientologist.
Actually no one in any org is a real scientologist because
they have all been indoctrinated in the contaminated versions of policy and tech.
Marty's the only one.
Just like DM.
Just like Our Dear Leader, Kim Ron Hub.

[Zinjifar]

Well, Marty already saved Scientology at least once, by arranging the IRS swindle (Totally legally dood! Totally!) and, except for the little matter of destruction of evidence in the McPherson Case, he's pure as the driven snow. Well, except he does seem to like kicking people on the shins (very lightly though.)

Zinj

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Marty's the only one who is a real scientologist.
None of the class 12's are, and they all go to sleep in session.
No one at Flag is a real scientologist.
Actually no one in any org is a real scientologist because
they have all been indoctrinated in the contaminated versions of policy and tech.
Marty's the only one.
Just like DM.
Just like Our Dear Leader, Kim Ron Hub.

It's looking more anad more like Marty is well on his way to the land of batshit crazy just like Bill Robertson, I bet Pooks is right, he probably walks around his apartment in his Galactic Patrol uniform pretending to talk to Elron Elray's spaceship

[dontscamme]

Marty's the only one who is a real scientologist.
None of the class 12's are, and they all go to sleep in session.
No one at Flag is a real scientologist.
Actually no one in any org is a real scientologist because
they have all been indoctrinated in the contaminated versions of policy and tech.
Marty's the only one.
Just like DM.
Just like Our Dear Leader, Kim Ron Hub.

Nice satire. :thumbsup:

Possibly Mike Rinder qualifies as a "real Scientologist" in Marty's eyes?

[Lulu Belle]

My two cents.

Give it time.

Give him time.

How many of us are in the same place we were when we first got out?

We needed time and space and other outside of Scientology experiences to process what we had gone through, what we were going through and where we were going.

I really wish people would stop jumping over the asses of Rathburn and Rinder and being the judge and jury. You don't really know what they are dealing with: physically, mentally and emotionally.

They have their own private hells to deal with. Let them deal with them as they see fit.

If you ever want them to be receptive to what you have to say to them, wait until they are ready and willing to hear it.

I have no doubt, personally, that they will come around.

When it happens for them.

Meanwhile, please leave them the fuck alone.

Judging them and antagonizing them and acting like general assholes to them will just make them hostile and defensive.

Put yourself in their position.

Would you personally be receptive to the shit that is being thrown at them?

Honestly?

Or would you say: "Fuck off and die. You weren't there. You don't know what it was like and what I am actually going through."

[Terril park]

My two cents.

Give it time.

Give him time.

How many of us are in the same place we were when we first got out?

We needed time and space and other outside of Scientology experiences to process what we had gone through, what we were going through and where we were going.

I really wish people would stop jumping over the asses of Rathburn and Rinder and being the judge and jury. You don't really know what they are dealing with: physically, mentally and emotionally.

They have their own private hells to deal with. Let them deal with them as they see fit.

If you ever want them to be receptive to what you have to say to them, wait until they are ready and willing to hear it.

I have no doubt, personally, that they will come around.

When it happens for them.

Meanwhile, please leave them the fuck alone.

Judging them and antagonizing them and acting like general assholes to them will just make them hostile and defensive.

Put yourself in their position.

Would you personally be receptive to the shit that is being thrown at them?

Honestly?

Or would you say: "Fuck off and die. You weren't there. You don't know what it was like and what I am actually going through."

Nice post. :)

Marty's had several years to examine various hells. He remains a scientologist, and I guess always will be. Like me. And he has been doing more than perhaps anyone to end the days of a cult.

[Free to shine]

My two cents.

Give it time.

Give him time.

How many of us are in the same place we were when we first got out?

We needed time and space and other outside of Scientology experiences to process what we had gone through, what we were going through and where we were going.

I really wish people would stop jumping over the asses of Rathburn and Rinder and being the judge and jury. You don't really know what they are dealing with: physically, mentally and emotionally.

They have their own private hells to deal with. Let them deal with them as they see fit.

If you ever want them to be receptive to what you have to say to them, wait until they are ready and willing to hear it.

I have no doubt, personally, that they will come around.

When it happens for them.

Meanwhile, please leave them the fuck alone.

Judging them and antagonizing them and acting like general assholes to them will just make them hostile and defensive.

Put yourself in their position.

Would you personally be receptive to the shit that is being thrown at them?

Honestly?

Or would you say: "Fuck off and die. You weren't there. You don't know what it was like and what I am actually going through."

I agree with you Lulu, except for one thing. They are taking a public stand, and making their views widely known, both through SP Times and Marty's blog. There may well be a private hell, struggling to understand, though the blog does not seem that way. For anyone who has gone through the years of coming to terms with their experiences, it is quite obvious how deeply indoctrinated they still are. I think it is necessary to question the publicly stated views, especially when there is a cheering squad in the blog's comments, and maybe, just maybe, some new viewpoints on scientology's big picture may get through - if not to M&M, then perhaps some readers.

[Terril park]

Marty's the only one who is a real scientologist.
None of the class 12's are, and they all go to sleep in session.
No one at Flag is a real scientologist.
Actually no one in any org is a real scientologist because
they have all been indoctrinated in the contaminated versions of policy and tech.
Marty's the only one.
Just like DM.
Just like Our Dear Leader, Kim Ron Hub.

Marty's not the only one who is a scientologist. There are those who will kick his ass if he goes wrong. Not to mention those who will even if he dosn't. :)

Marty has commented about one particular FZ class XII going to sleep in session. Well I know this person, and can verify this has happened with several of his PCs. I was told there is a medical condition and he forgot to bring the medication needed. Does it still happen? Dunno.

Are there real tech terminals left in the COS? If they are still there, I can't see how they are not PTS, or in other terms overwhelmed and shattered
by corrupt evil management.

Marty's the only one?

I know he's not and so does he.

Hubbard commented on how one gets into trouble.

" Be there and communicate."

People sniping at him on message bourds is the least of it
for him.

[uniquemand]

Hey, Terril, check your voicemail. I tried to visit with you, today, but you didn't call me back! I'm in London for one more day. I'm having lunch with a beautiful woman. After that, I'm all yours, big boy. Otherwise, I'll snipe at you on message boards. Is that what you want?

(401)626-6776.

[Terril park]

Interesting. I'm not trolling here, but honestly stating my opinion that I have found you to be one of the most "high and mighty" posters on this board.

Just sayin.

Patricia A. Pieniadz

I believe Mark was commenting on those ex COS but still scientologists,
rather than ESMB members in general.

He is though the only ex seaman here who is extremely knowledgable
about history, mathematics, philosophy, comparative religion and so on.

Then their is Shakespeare and music theatre which gets little play here.

He brings a lot of erudition to the table.

And he is almost always very polite.

I find his posts a joy to read and educational.

[GreyWolf]

Like always, his blog was right on. Btw did you read the last paragraph of his blog on what your fees buy you.

[degraded being]

I believe Mark was commenting on those ex COS but still scientologists,
rather than ESMB members in general.

He is though the only ex seaman here who is extremely knowledgable
about history, mathematics, philosophy, comparative religion and so on.

Then their is Shakespeare and music theatre which gets little play here.

He brings a lot of erudition to the table.

And he is almost always very polite.

I find his posts a joy to read and educational.

Jesus terril wake up please. (see I can be polite too).
You sound like hick town howard projecting on to everyone.
We do know something about that pommy guy who wrote those hard to understand plays. Anyway he didn't even talk proper so no wonder that we can't read it. And we can bring up that eru...eru..thing at the table too. Specially after a good piss up. Those other things like philosophy and things, well what's that good for anyway? Sounds dumb to me. "A joy to read...." Are you 'aving a laff?!!
Are y' trying to wind 'im up?' Are y' 'aving a laff?"

[Terril park]

Hey, Terril, check your voicemail. I tried to visit with you, today, but you didn't call me back! I'm in London for one more day. I'm having lunch with a beautiful woman. After that, I'm all yours, big boy. Otherwise, I'll snipe at you on message boards. Is that what you want?

(401)626-6776.

Now you tell me! I've got nothing on voicemail.

Here is my cell no.

07903 849 519

Home

0208-864-4940

[Terril park]

Now you tell me! I've got nothing on voicemail.

Here is my cell no.

07903 849 519

Home

0208-864-4940

PS This no. dosn't work. (401)626-6776.

[uniquemand]

PS This no. dosn't work. (401)626-6776.

Yes it does, but you might have to dial some country code or something. I don't know. I made a friend who called me on it today. Harrumph. I'm tired, now, anyway. Didn't sleep much last night, and the adventures around London have tuckered me out. I'm going to take a nap. Perhaps you'd come to Southwark (Kennington station area) for a pint, later? I'm pretty bushed, and don't want to go for any more long cab rides or tube rides today.

[Voltaire's Child]

Interesting. I'm not trolling here, but honestly stating my opinion that I have found you to be one of the most "high and mighty" posters on this board.

Just sayin.

Patricia A. Pieniadz

I like Mark.

[Voltaire's Child]

I guess you don't know what OTVI is either Mr. Baker. I find that most people like you who are still enamored with Hubbard and his cult haven't really studied it. If it's all so great go join Marty and save scientology! Better yet, join the Sea Org and get that squirell DM out of there!

If you believe in it, why are you hanging around here with a bunch of SPs?


Mark is not enamored with the cult. He's an ex member and he's also posted critical commentary of Hubbard. I think that there's a cognitive dissonance going on here sometimes re the difference between non CofS Scn'ists' ideas and perspectives and those of culties in the Church of $cn.

I typed the dollar $ign as my humble gift to mankind, baby. :coolwink:

[xseaorguk]

Funny to read how Marty just 'lightly kicked' a few people in various situations.
Wonder how many he 'lightly thumped in the face'
or 'lightly trod on somebody's beingness

Is this what we now call $cientology-light?'

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Funny to read how Marty just 'lightly kicked' a few people in various situations.
Wonder how many he 'lightly thumped in the face'
or 'lightly trod on somebody's beingness

Is this what we now call $cientology-light?'

Come let us clean out your wallets at Marty's kinder, gentler, mindfuck.

Now Open For Business ... all Major Credit Card Accepted, but cash is preferable

[Zinjifar]

That's not fair! If he kicked you in the shin (lightly) he'll give you a touch assist for free.

Zinj

[Good twin]

That's not fair! If he kicked you in the shin (lightly) he'll give you a touch assist for free.

Zinj

No Zinj. He allows you to decide what you are willing to exchange. It's not free.:no:

[olska]

Mark is not enamored with the cult. He's an ex member and he's also posted critical commentary of Hubbard. I think that there's a cognitive dissonance going on here sometimes re the difference between non CofS Scn'ists' ideas and perspectives and those of culties in the Church of $cn.

OR it could be an MU on the word "cult" when writing about the cult of scientology -- which, according to the definition of the word in the English language, is not bounded by active membership in the "Co$" or so-called official "Church" of $cn.

[Voltaire's Child]

OR it could be an MU on the word "cult" when writing about the cult of scientology -- which, according to the definition of the word in the English language, is not bounded by active membership in the "Co$" or so-called official "Church" of $cn.

Calling non CofS Scn'ists cult members is misleading and you and I both know this.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Calling non CofS Scn'ists cult members is misleading and you and I both know this.

No it's not, Hubbard was nothing but a con man who created a self serving cult, defending his indefensible actions only validates it. The freezone may not be too organized and may not be Hubbard's self created cult, but it's still a Hubbard worshiping cult, in fact it's the common denominator that ties freezoners together ... Hubbard's cult tech.

[olska]

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Definition:

Cult

1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual, especially one focusing upon a single deity or spirit

2. a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal; b. The object of such devotion.

3. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest.


Calling non CofS Scn'ists cult members is misleading and you and I both know this.

On the contrary, misleading is pretending that scientologists outside the official "Church" are somehow not part of the cult of scientology.

See definition #2 above, which says nothing at all about organizations, communities, or groups of any kind. Yet -- amazing! -- it's a legitimate English language definition of the word "cult"!

As in cult of scientology, with scientology being the thing that is the "object of devotion."

Definition #3 also applies.

Of course, you're free to make up your own definitions for words if that's what floats your boat, but as long as I'm writing in the English language, I'll stick with the English language definitions.

[Voltaire's Child]

No it's not, Hubbard was nothing but a con man who created a self serving cult, defending his indefensible actions only validates it. The freezone may not be too organized and may not be Hubbard's self created cult, but it's still a Hubbard worshiping cult, in fact it's the common denominator that ties freezoners together ... Hubbard's cult tech.

Possessing ideological beliefs in the absense of cult trappings doth not a cultie make.

[Voltaire's Child]

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Definition:

Cult

1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual, especially one focusing upon a single deity or spirit

2. a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal; b. The object of such devotion.

3. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest.



On the contrary, misleading is pretending that scientologists outside the official "Church" are somehow not part of the cult of scientology.

See definition #2 above, which says nothing at all about organizations, communities, or groups of any kind. Yet -- amazing! -- it's a legitimate English language definition of the word "cult"!

As in cult of scientology, with scientology being the thing that is the "object of devotion."

Definition #3 also applies.

Of course, you're free to make up your own definitions for words if that's what floats your boat, but as long as I'm writing in the English language, I'll stick with the English language definitions.

Which is what I'm doing. So, no, I'm not endorsing your spin. I suggest you do some reading on the Protestant Reformation. No, I'm not going to explain that suggestion- you're a very bright woman and I'm 100% positive that if you think about it, you'll know exactly why I said that.

None of the three criteria above are relevant to non CofS Scientologists. The reasons are both legion and have been posted and reposted here many times.

[Mick Wenlock]

I hope not.

oh claire it is, alas, more than a few. Seriously.

[HelluvaHoax!]

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Definition: Cult

1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual, especially one focusing upon a single deity or spirit

2. a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal; b. The object of such devotion.

3. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest.

On the contrary, misleading is pretending that scientologists outside the official "Church" are somehow not part of the cult of scientology.

See definition #2 above, which says nothing at all about organizations, communities, or groups of any kind. Yet -- amazing! -- it's a legitimate English language definition of the word "cult"!

As in cult of scientology, with scientology being the thing that is the "object of devotion."----snippety snip------



Good point, Olska!

It made me give some thought to what the "object of devotion" is. I re-read some of the earlier posts on this thread.

Mark Baker is a fairly exemplary spokesman for the "NON-CoS Scientologist" and he made a very interesting comment:


Posted by Mark Baker:
The SO I have ALWAYS considered to be utterly risible as "Hubbard's private navy". It is clearly indicative of his own "unflat case". Remarkable that he could find so many willing to dramatize his case for him, really.

There is something is very revealing about devotion to the technology of Scientology (no matter what PERCENTAGE of Scientology/LRH the person claims to believe or use). And it does not matter if they also believe OTHER philosophic or religious or mystical concepts. It is not the point what they call themselves or what they do NOT subscribe to.

The point is what they DO venerate, use or believe as an "object of devotion"? Fascinating thing to consider....

The core Scn belief is the ascendence of the individual spirit thru and above the individual's "case" to an idealized native state, by means of Scientology.

Astonishingly, when an individual does not succeed, it is not attributed to the many different possibilities, including but not limited to:
*** The workable "standard technology" does not, in fact, work.
*** There is no such idealized state attainable.
*** There is, in fact, no "case" but just normal human behavior.

It is a revelation (for me) to understand that one can actually believe that the reason Hubbard had an "unflat case" (i.e. was "abberated") was that Scientology was not applied to his case. How that is possible is beyond logic.

If the expert that discovered the cure for the disease is afflicted with the disease....how is it that one still assumes he has discovered the cure?

That is, I think, the answer to "WHAT IS THE OBJECT OF DEVOTION?" It is the unwavering devotion to an idea that Scientology Works and any contrary evidence (e.g. Ron's case was never handled) is simply because more Scientology needs to be applied.

But, with respect to religious beliefs, I have no argument with people who keep inoculating themselves with a placebo. But it kills the fun for me to know that the magical cure is only a solution of sugar-water. I like "solutions" but real ones.

[olska]

Which is what I'm doing. So, no, I'm not endorsing your spin. I suggest you do some reading on the Protestant Reformation. No, I'm not going to explain that suggestion- you're a very bright woman and I'm 100% positive that if you think about it, you'll know exactly why I said that.

None of the three criteria above are relevant to non CofS Scientologists. The reasons are both legion and have been posted and reposted here many times.

Thank you for the recommendation but I don't much care why you suggested I do some reading about the Protestant Reformation. Since you bring it up so often, I'm guessing you have a particular fondness for or interest in the subject, but frankly I'm not that interested in it and I have other (more important, to me) things to do right now.

No amount of study of the Protestant Reformation will change the definition of the word "cult," which I copied verbatim from a reputable English language dictionary, and which I employed correctly in the phrase "cult of scientology." I stand by my use of the word.

Only you would possibly know why you're making such an issue of this.

[olska]

<snip>
There is something is very revealing about devotion to the technology of Scientology (no matter what PERCENTAGE of Scientology/LRH the person claims to believe or use). And it does not matter if they also believe OTHER philosophic or religious or mystical concepts. It is not the point what they call themselves or what they do NOT subscribe to.

The point is what they DO venerate, use or believe as an "object of devotion"? Fascinating thing to consider....

A non-CoS scientologist might say to you that indeed, Hubbard wrote some nasty stuff into the body of work called "scientology" that they have cast aside and don't believe in, follow, defend, or ascribe to...

...they only believe in the "good stuff" -- the remaining 98% of Hubbard's work.

According to the "religion" (the philosophy, the tenets, the beliefs) of scientology, it is an OVERT to fail to defend scientology.

Regarding "devotion," old folk maxim (I have no idea who said it first):

Love is blind.

[Terril park]

Good point, Olska!

It made me give some thought to what the "object of devotion" is. I re-read some of the earlier posts on this thread.

Mark Baker is a fairly exemplary spokesman for the "NON-CoS Scientologist" and he made a very interesting comment:



There is something is very revealing about belief in the technology of Scientology (no matter what PERCENTAGE of Scientology/LRH the person claims to believe or use). And it does not matter if they also believe OTHER philosophic or religious or mystical concepts. It is not the point what they call themselves or what they do NOT subscribe to.

The point is what they DO venerate, use or believe as an "object of devotion"? Fascinating thing to consider....

The core Scn belief is the ascendence of the individual spirit thru and above the individual's "case" to an idealized native state.

Astonishingly, when an individual does not succeed, it is not attributed to the many different possibilities, including but not limited to:
*** The workable "standard technology" does not, in fact, work.
*** There is no such idealized state attainable.
*** There is, in fact, no "case" but just normal human behavior.

It is a revelation (for me) to understand that one can actually believe that the reason Hubbard had an "unflat case" (i.e. was "abberated") was that Scientology was not applied to his case. How that is possible is beyond logic.

If the expert that discovered the cure for the disease is afflicted with the disease....how is it that one still assumes he has discovered the cure?

That is, I think, the answer to "WHAT IS THE OBJECT OF DEVOTION?" It is the unwavering devotion to an idea that Scientology Works and any contrary evidence (e.g. Ron's case was never handled) is simply because more Scientology needs to be applied.

But, with respect to religious beliefs, I have no argument with people who keep inoculating themselves with a placebo. But it kills the fun for me to know that the magical cure is only a solution of sugar-water. I like "solutions" but real ones.

The definition of cult is manifold, and one given in earlier posts would include the middle eastern religions, Islam Judaism, and Christianity, and others. I've put part of the the definition from wikipedia at bottom which
really is the definition we here are, mostly, hopefully are concerned with.

Lets sum it up as abuse.

Anons in general are not concerned with belief. They protest abuse. So
I've been protesting along with them since the beginning.

Cult!!! So here in london I have much experience of observing the abrahamic religions. Grew up in a strict Hasidem jewish area, part jewish myself , or full if you wish, and love these guys. Their thirst for knowledge,
there FZ intensity on arguing doctrinal points. [ ser fac battles perhaps?]
Very puzzled that the young guys have a token cap on their very short haircuts held on with girl hair pins, while others never cut the hair of their
sideburns, very similar to the muslim commonality to grow the biggest beard they can which I believe is equated to religiosity? The jewish women cut their hair and wear wigs, and the christians worship statues of Mary.

Compared to the above religious rituals, for me scientology is a breath of
sanity.

So... Scientologists do not venerate, use or believe as an "object of devotion" anything. If they do so, and I'm sure its hardly unknown, that is not scientology.

"The core Scn belief is the ascendence of the individual spirit thru and above the individual's "case" to an idealized native state. "

Sounds right. Its not such a shabby goal.

"It is a revelation (for me) to understand that one can actually believe that the reason Hubbard had an "unflat case" (i.e. was "abberated") was that Scientology was not applied to his case. How that is possible is beyond logic.

If the expert that discovered the cure for the disease is afflicted with the disease....how is it that one still assumes he has discovered the cure?"

One might comment, " Do as I say, not what I do."

IMO the bridge has not been completed, and he didn't have whatever extra tools are needed.



--------------
General characteristics
[edit]
In psychology

Studies of the psychological aspects of cults focus on the individual person, and factors relating to the choice to become involved as well as the subsequent effects on individuals. Under one view, an important factor is coercive persuasion which suppresses the ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest.

Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion:[29][30]
People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
They get a new identity based on the group;
They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.[31]

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

IMO the bridge has not been completed, and he didn't have whatever extra tools are needed.





The bridge is complete, all the thinking that needs to ever be done has already been done by Hubbard, besides adding someone else's brand of crazy to Hubbard's con game will not change the result. If you are not using Hubbard's Tech to suck money out of people or control them, you are wasting your time, because that is all it was ever designed to do.

And if you are on the other end on the con game, the one who is getting money sucked out of them or being controlled ... you are a chump.

[olska]

<snip>
Scientologists do not venerate, use or believe as an "object of devotion" anything. If they do so, and I'm sure its hardly unknown, that is not scientology.

Er ... ah ... that is, not anything EXCEPT "scientology," which they constantly and fervently defend.

Regarding the reason Hubbard had an "unflat case" (i.e. was "abberated"):


IMO the bridge has not been completed, and [Hubbard] didn't have whatever extra tools are needed.

Right, oh yeah, that's gotta be it. :wacko:

[lkwdblds]

Good point, Olska!


It is a revelation (for me) to understand that one can actually believe that the reason Hubbard had an "unflat case" (i.e. was "abberated") was that Scientology was not applied to his case. How that is possible is beyond logic.

If the expert that discovered the cure for the disease is afflicted with the disease....how is it that one still assumes he has discovered the cure?


Helluva - I thought you made a good post except for the above two paragraphs. What is so difficult in seeing that Hubbard could have had an "unflat case" because STANDARD Scientology was not applied to his case?

In your example of the expert discovering the cure to the disease and still being inflicted with the disease it is extremely easy to see how one could still assume the expert has discovered the cure. He could have discovered the cure and just not applied it to himself!

Let's say Dr. Livingstone goes to Africa and discovers the cure for malaria. He says to boil the root of the garana tree and sip 3 cups of it every day until cured and to always sleep with a mosquito net over your bed to remain cured. Let's say millions of people follow the Standard cure and it works 100% of the time but Dr. Livingstone is so caught up in helping people that he does not apply the cure to himself and shortly after arriving there comes up with malaria.

The same thing could be said of Hubbard in auditing. He ran a lot of non standard stuff on himself, using himself as a guinea pig and then in later years would not allow any one to run correction lists on himself. If you have not read it, read the Otto Roos Story which covers this scene in detail!

What is so hard in seeing how someone could develop a valid cure but then not use it on himself? Its a good example of the old saying, "Do as I say, not as I do".
Lkwdblds

[Voltaire's Child]

Only you would possibly know why you're making such an issue of this.



Yeah, I do know why I'm doing it. I saw a thread with posts on which I had an opinion, so I posted those opinions. Then people responded to me with questions and commentary. As I was still following the thread, I felt inclined to respond.

[Iknowtoomuch]

The bridge is complete, all the thinking that needs to ever be done has already been done by Hubbard, besides adding someone else's brand of crazy to Hubbard's con game will not change the result. If you are not using Hubbard's Tech to suck money out of people or control them, you are wasting your time, because that is all it was ever designed to do.

And if you are on the other end on the con game, the one who is getting money sucked out of them or being controlled ... you are a chump.




How many retreads of OTVII can there possibly be!:D

[Zinjifar]

How many retreads of OTVII can there possibly be!:D

How much money do the Publics still have?

Zinj

[HelluvaHoax!]

Helluva - I thought you made a good post except for the above two paragraphs. What is so difficult in seeing that Hubbard could have had an "unflat case" because STANDARD Scientology was not applied to his case?

In your example of the expert discovering the cure to the disease and still being inflicted with the disease it is extremely easy to see how one could still assume the expert has discovered the cure. He could have discovered the cure and just not applied it to himself!

Let's say Dr. Livingstone goes to Africa and discovers the cure for malaria. He says to boil the root of the garana tree and sip 3 cups of it every day until cured and to always sleep with a mosquito net over your bed to remain cured. Let's say millions of people follow the Standard cure and it works 100% of the time but Dr. Livingstone is so caught up in helping people that he does not apply the cure to himself and shortly after arriving threre comes up with malaria.

The same thing could be said of Hubbard in auditing. He ran a lot of non standard stuff on himself, using himself as a guinea pig and then in later years would not allow any one to run correction lists on himself. If you have not read it, read the Otto Roos Story which covers this scene in detail!

What is so hard in seeing how someone could develop a valid cure but then not use it on himself? Its a good example of the old saying, "Do as I say, not as I do".
Lkwdblds

Lkwdbids, thanks! I seriously considered what you said.

So if what you are saying is true (Hubbard was aberrated because STANDARD Scientology was not applied to his case), I still have no idea how to get rid of these pesky non-standard thoughts:

1) If Ron was the most OT being of all and discovered the tech to free all beings in the universe, why could he not free himself?

2) If he could not handle his own case with four decades (1946-1986) of auditing from the best auditors in the world, available to him all day,every day, 365 days a year at no cost....isn't it painfully obvious that there is something dreadfully wrong with the tech?

3) (yes I know the Otto Roos story) All that story proves (if true) is that the theory of auditing (Auditor + PC is greater than bank) is not true. (i.e. all the kings horses and all the king's men could not put Hubbardy Dumpty back together again). If Hubbard's case was so strong that it was unhandleable by all of the power and might of the Clears and OTS that had "made it", then he was an extremely abberated individual we must conclude. If he had that much case remaining, how well did the tech work?

4) if Hubbard was "too busy freeing other beings" to free himself, can you point out ONE (1) single human being that has ever lived or is living today who is a free being, an actual book 1 definition CLEAR. An actual, as defined, OPERATING THETAN? If you cannot find even one (1) being who is a verifiable OPERATING THETAN, why is that?

Here are some common sense questions that come to mind:

Would you want to buy a baldness cure if the inventor and promoter was bald?

Would you enroll in a diet program where all the long-term clients and instructors were morbidly obese?

If you had cancer, would you sell everything you own and go into deep debt for a miracle cancer cure? What if you discovered that the biotech engineer who discovered it had died of cancer? What if you discovered that there was not one (1) single confirmed case where any individual was cured of cancer?

[scooter]

How much money do the Publics still have?

Zinj

Sorry - the correct answer is "How much more can they get from somewhere."

They've already had all they owned taken from them.:yes:

[HelluvaHoax!]

A non-CoS scientologist might say to you that indeed, Hubbard wrote some nasty stuff into the body of work called "scientology" that they have cast aside and don't believe in, follow, defend, or ascribe to......they only believe in the "good stuff" -- the remaining 98% of Hubbard's work. According to the "religion" (the philosophy, the tenets, the beliefs) of scientology, it is an OVERT to fail to defend scientology.

Regarding "devotion," old folk maxim (I have no idea who said it first):

Love is blind.

LOL! Boy that reduces the mystical mystery of where all this theta-crazy-glue is coming from that sticks folks in the cult, even when they leave the "church".

That's kind of like an inmate from a maximum security prison who is let outdoors 15 minutes a day into a tiny, caged exercise yard with multiple gun towers surrounding it. In his mind, he has "escaped" from the prison. In his mind he is "free".

[Iknowtoomuch]

How much money do the Publics still have?

Zinj



How do we get more publics we can fool?

[HelluvaHoax!]

Scientology makes the ABLE more ABLE.

ABLE PERSON: Any person whose aggregate cash & credit equals or exceeds Scientology's lowest priced item.

[Terril park]

Lkwdbids, thanks! I seriously considered what you said.

So if what you are saying is true (Hubbard was aberrated because STANDARD Scientology was not applied to his case), I still have no idea how to get rid of these pesky non-standard thoughts:

1) If Ron was the most OT being of all and discovered the tech to free all beings in the universe, why could he not free himself?

2) If he could not handle his own case with four decades (1946-1986) of auditing from the best auditors in the world, available to him all day,every day, 365 days a year at no cost....isn't it painfully obvious that there is something dreadfully wrong with the tech?

3) (yes I know the Otto Roos story) All that story proves (if true) is that the theory of auditing (Auditor + PC is greater than bank) is not true. (i.e. all the kings horses and all the king's men could not put Hubbardy Dumpty back together again). If Hubbard's case was so strong that it was unhandleable by all of the power and might of the Clears and OTS that had "made it", then he was an extremely abberated individual we must conclude. If he had that much case remaining, how well did the tech work?

4) if Hubbard was "too busy freeing other beings" to free himself, can you point out ONE (1) single human being that has ever lived or is living today who is a free being, an actual book 1 definition CLEAR. An actual, as defined, OPERATING THETAN? If you cannot find even one (1) being who is a verifiable OPERATING THETAN, why is that?

Here are some common sense questions that come to mind:

Would you want to buy a baldness cure if the inventor and promoter was bald?

Would you enroll in a diet program where all the long-term clients and instructors were morbidly obese?

If you had cancer, would you sell everything you own and go into deep debt for a miracle cancer cure? What if you discovered that the biotech engineer who discovered it had died of cancer? What if you discovered that there was not one (1) single confirmed case where any individual was cured of cancer?

I have a friend who was on the 1962 experimental briefing course attempting to handle actual GPMs. She validates Alan's comments on auditors being transported to auditing rooms to audit in wheel barrows. This experiment by accounts led to death and insanity for some. She claims actual OT abilities gained, and also case problems unhandled to this day.

Well Hubbard not only researched all this he researched much else and
clearly has much unhandled case. Per the Otto Roos story he wouldn't allow this to be corrected.

Well Hubbard

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I have a friend who was on the 1962 experimental briefing course attempting to handle actual GPMs. She validates Alan's comments on auditors being transported to auditing rooms to audit in wheel barrows. This experiment by accounts led to death and insanity for some. She claims actual OT abilities gained, and also case problems unhandled to this day.

Well Hubbard not only researched all this he researched much else and
clearly has much unhandled case. Per the Otto Roos story he wouldn't allow this to be corrected.

Well Hubbard

I don't think anyone doubts Hubbard's Tech can make people insane, we have all seen the long term results of people diluting themselves with Scientology and it's not pretty. It's too bad that is all Hubbard's Tech has ever been proven to consistently produce other than mindless drones. But then again that is all it was ever intended to produce in the first place. Hubbard set out to create a cult of mindless slaves and he achieved his goal.

[lkwdblds]

Lkwdbids, thanks! I seriously considered what you said.

So if what you are saying is true (Hubbard was aberrated because STANDARD Scientology was not applied to his case), I still have no idea how to get rid of these pesky non-standard thoughts:

I am not actually saying this is true, I am just offering it as a counterexample to what you said. I am just offering it as a possibility of how someone could develop a cure and still be inflicted with the ailment himself.

1) If Ron was the most OT being of all and discovered the tech to free all beings in the universe, why could he not free himself?

I believe strongly that he was just too arrogant to allow mere Earthlings, such as Otto Roos, to apply his own tech to himself. Apparently, he never handled his own Grade IV, his Service Fac. HAD ROOS AND HIS TEAM ACTUALLY DONE A REPAIR ON RON AND STRAIGHTENED OUT HIS CASE, CAN YOU SEE RON STANDING WITH THEM ON A PODIUM HI-FIVING THEM AS THE PEOPLE WHO SAVED HIM? My theory is that Ron could not confront sharing the limelight with anyone else. He would rather remain ill and aberrated than allow someone else to help to restore his health and have to share the limelight with them!

2) If he could not handle his own case with four decades (1946-1986) of auditing from the best auditors in the world, available to him all day,every day, 365 days a year at no cost....isn't it painfully obvious that there is something dreadfully wrong with the tech?

To me, it doesn't necessarily show 100% that there is something wrong with the tech, it indicates a high likelyhood of that being the case but there is also a significant possiblity that he refused to use the tech on himself for the reasons I just stated above.

3) (yes I know the Otto Roos story) All that story proves (if true) is that the theory of auditing (Auditor + PC is greater than bank) is not true. (i.e. all the kings horses and all the king's men could not put Hubbardy Dumpty back together again). If Hubbard's case was so strong that it was unhandleable by all of the power and might of the Clears and OTS that had "made it", then he was an extremely abberated individual we must conclude. If he had that much case remaining, how well did the tech work?

This is our point of disagreement. For Auditor and PC to be greater than the bank, the PC, Hubbard in this case, has to be "in session" which means he must be willing to talk to the auditor about his case. If you recall the Roos story, Hubbard was extremely angry at Roos because Roos found "Rock Slams" in Ron's pc folders which indicated there were evil intentions to handle. Ron insisted that he never had Rock Slammed, even punched Roos in the face (maybe that's how DM learned that technique) and had Roos off loaded. To prove Hubbard's case was too strong for Hubbard's tech to handle, Hubbard would have had to submit to going into session with an auditor and have the tech applied to himself and this he refused to do.

4) if Hubbard was "too busy freeing other beings" to free himself, can you point out ONE (1) single human being that has ever lived or is living today who is a free being, an actual book 1 definition CLEAR. An actual, as defined, OPERATING THETAN? If you cannot find even one (1) being who is a verifiable OPERATING THETAN, why is that?

There is no single being that I know of who has made book 1 Clear let alone operating thetan. There are tens of thousands of beings who have been helped by the tech in various ways. There are probably hundreds of people who have made auditing gains on ESMB, I am one of them. I don't want to argue this point here. To me it is obvious that auditing has some significant workability when applied correctly to a person who is sessionable and willing to be "in session". I believe the gains available on auditing have been OVERSOLD to all Scientologists. It is not an all or nothing proposition. It isn't that you make book 1 clear or full OT or there are zero gains available. The actual condition is that people are told they will achieve gains which C of S and its tech are not capable of delivering but many people do receive some signicant betterment through application of C of S tech. If they received no gains at all, the Dianetics and Scientology movement never would have gotten off the ground. It would have been a "flash in the pan" and quickly would have died out in the early 1950's.
Here are some common sense questions that come to mind:

Would you want to buy a baldness cure if the inventor and promoter was bald?

Would you enroll in a diet program where all the long-term clients and instructors were morbidly obese?

If you had cancer, would you sell everything you own and go into deep debt for a miracle cancer cure? What if you discovered that the biotech engineer who discovered it had died of cancer? What if you discovered that there was not one (1) single confirmed case where any individual was cured of cancer?

Helluva - Thanks for responding to my post in a serious open manner! You make some valid points. On those 3 questions above, I probably would not buy any of the 3 programs offered. All I am saying is that the inferences you are making are likely to be true but you have not proved them to be true. Unless the inventor of the baldness program and the diet program had the treatments done on themselves and all of their staffs, one can not conclude that the programs are no good. In fact, to do so, probably double blind studies with placebo's would have to be used.

On the cancer cure program, it is possible that people could intelligently buy into the program if partial relief was available such as radiation therapy or something of that nature which could keep the cancer under control and extend one's life although falling short of a complete cure. This would correspond to the gains many Scientologists experience with Hubbard's tech, though not even coming close to the enormous gains which are promised them.
Lkwdblds

[Zinjifar]

It's clear that at least one actual product of Scientology Tech is the creation of practitioners who *believe* that they have been helped by Scientology Tech.

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

Love may "be blind" but that would go double- if not quintuple- for hatred.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Love may "be blind" but that would go double- if not quintuple- for hatred.

After seeing the disdain some Scientologist have for the truth and reality, I'd have to agree.

[Voltaire's Child]

After seeing the disdain some Scientologist have for the truth and reality, I'd have to agree.


After seeing the disdain and, in some cases, screeching vehemence and vitriol, some critics have for others who've opted differently, I'd have to agree.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

After seeing the disdain and, in some cases, screeching vehemence and vitriol, some critics have for others who've opted differently, I'd have to agree.

Hey well what do you know ... we finally found something we can agree upon :thumbsup:

[HelluvaHoax!]

posted by HelluvaHoax!
1) If Ron was the most OT being of all and discovered the tech to free all beings in the universe, why could he not free himself?


Posted by Lidwdbids
I believe strongly that he was just too arrogant to allow mere Earthlings, such as Otto Roos, to apply his own tech to himself. Apparently, he never handled his own Grade IV, his Service Fac. HAD ROOS AND HIS TEAM ACTUALLY DONE A REPAIR ON RON AND STRAIGHTENED OUT HIS CASE, CAN YOU SEE RON STANDING WITH THEM ON A PODIUM HI-FIVING THEM AS THE PEOPLE WHO SAVED HIM? My theory is that Ron could not confront sharing the limelight with anyone else. He would rather remain ill and aberrated than allow someone else to help to restore his health and have to share the limelight with them.

hmmmm, wouldn't that mean that anyone whose case had intentions to "remain ill and aberrated" would likewise remain ill and aberrated? That would be a pretty big problem with the tech, wouldn't it?




posted by HelluvaHoax!
If he could not handle his own case with four decades (1946-1986) of auditing from the best auditors in the world, available to him all day,every day, 365 days a year at no cost....isn't it painfully obvious that there is something dreadfully wrong with the tech?


posted by likwdbids
To me, it doesn't necessarily show 100% that there is something wrong with the tech, it indicates a high likelyhood of that being the case but there is also a significant possiblity that he refused to use the tech on himself for the reasons I just stated above.

From many sources (including ex wife & friends that worked for Hubbard personally) I have consistently heard that "Even Ron always followed his own tech and got auditing every single day." Just for fun, if Ron had only 1 intensive per week:


He would have received 26,000 hours of auditing
He would have received 2080 intensives
Modestly valued at $5,000 per intensive, the cost of his auditing would be $10,400,000


That just doesn't seem like the only hope for mankind or working folks or for clearing the planet.

Especially when $10M is still not enough to handle one's case...

[Voltaire's Child]

Why would you think he'd have to pay for auditing?

[Zinjifar]

Why would you think he'd have to pay for auditing?

Because to be 'out exchange' would make him criminal?

Zinj

[HelluvaHoax!]

Why would you think he'd have to pay for auditing?

Now I'm wondering if he didn't actually pay much more than $10M considering that time period in '76 where he was raising the prices on himself 10% per month!? :D

[Terril park]

It's clear that at least one actual product of Scientology Tech is the creation of practitioners who *believe* that they have been helped by Scientology Tech.

Zinj

So Zinj, you are expert in knowing Marty's mind despite his denial of your
atributions, and also expert in denial of gains of all who partake of scientology practices, and who would mostly disagree with you, if they knew you. They generally consider they have been helped, you position this as irrational belief. Why should anyone take any notice of your comments on this?

[lkwdblds]

hmmmm, wouldn't that mean that anyone whose case had intentions to "remain ill and aberrated" would likewise remain ill and aberrated? That would be a pretty big problem with the tech, wouldn't it?

Yes it could definitely be so. (Notice I said could but not would.)


From many sources (including ex wife & friends that worked for Hubbard personally) I have consistently heard that "Even Ron always followed his own tech and got auditing every single day." Just for fun, if Ron had only 1 intensive per week:


He would have received 26,000 hours of auditing
He would have received 2080 intensives
Modestly valued at $5,000 per intensive, the cost of his auditing would be $10,400,000


That just doesn't seem like the only hope for mankind or working folks or for clearing the planet.

Especially when $10M is still not enough to handle one's case...

You know, I do not believe he got audited every day of his life once he started Dianetics. However,that is not important. He did all his own C/S ing, which is against his own policy and much of his auditing was done solo. Nobody FESed his folders looking for errors. Much of his auditing was in pioneering new techniques and he subjected himself to out listing, missing reads, unhandled Rock Slams and over runs while trying new processes and techniques on himself. Joe Q. Public got auditing which was piloted and had the bugs worked out while Ron ran unpiloted untested routines on himself. John Q. Public had FESers, a C/S who was a different person than the auditor and a Div 5 cramming division behind him. LRH never sent himself to cramming or subjected himself to correction or review by another. Also. I never claimed clearing the planet with C of S auditing was a doable goal. I you look at my last post, I agreed that no Book 1 Clears or full OT's were made and all I claimed is that quite a few people feel they have achieved significant wins.

Helluva, your basic premises make sense, I am making a few counter examples when I think you are assuming a little too much or painting with too broad of a brush when defining some of your generalalities. I think my counter examples are strong; if you do not buy into them and wish to keep your previous views just as they were before I commented, I have no problem with that, it is totally OK with me. I think the main gist of what you are saying has merit. We are close to agreement and if we don't agree as to some specific fine points so be it. I said my piece on this topic and you can have the last word if you want.
Lkwdblds

[Ladybird]

So Zinj, you are expert in knowing Marty's mind despite his denial of your
atributions, and also expert in denial of gains of all who partake of scientology practices, and who would mostly disagree with you, if they knew you. They generally consider they have been helped, you position this as irrational belief. Why should anyone take any notice of your comments on this?


I think this is doublespeak and a veiled insult Terril.

I commend you for speaking as a person instead of just pushing the tech and the freezone. Maybe you might want to look at what you wrote and reconsider?

[Zinjifar]

So Zinj, you are expert in knowing Marty's mind despite his denial of your
atributions, and also expert in denial of gains of all who partake of scientology practices, and who would mostly disagree with you, if they knew you. They generally consider they have been helped, you position this as irrational belief. Why should anyone take any notice of your comments on this?

I have no idea. I don't particularly expect it. I also don't expect people who've been hypnotized to think they're chickens to listen to me when I tell them they're *not* really chickens.

Marty's a different matter. He's just lying.

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

Because to be 'out exchange' would make him criminal?

Zinj


He would argue that he'd created the whole entire body of work (Scn)...

There is absolutely NO indication that he had to pay for auditing or felt he'd have to or even was asked that.

There's also NO indication that he got auditing every single week. Particularly that last year or two in the trailer at San Luis Obispo...

[Zinjifar]

He would argue that he'd created the whole entire body of work (Scn)...

Since Ron was Mankind's Greatest Benefactor, we are all 'out-exchange' to Him :) Why, if Ron stole my hedge clippers, he'd be perfectly justified!

Thank You Ron!

Zinj

[HelluvaHoax!]

Since Ron was Mankind's Greatest Benefactor, we are all 'out-exchange' to Him :) Why, if Ron stole my hedge clippers, he'd be perfectly justified!

Thank You Ron!

Zinj

There is no indication that Ron "stole" your hedge clippers. In reality, Ron does not need to "steal" your hedge clippers.

The fact is, his havingness is so unbelievably high that it shatters your low, mest-level agreement called "ownership"... and the physical universe simply rearranges itself accordingly.

[Iknowtoomuch]

The work was free!!!

[Terril park]

I think this is doublespeak and a veiled insult Terril.

I commend you for speaking as a person instead of just pushing the tech and the freezone. Maybe you might want to look at what you wrote and reconsider?

I can only say I love you ladybird. :)) xxxxx

[Voltaire's Child]

The work was free!!!



I've always found that particular quote of Hubbard's to be rather baffling...

[Iknowtoomuch]

I've always found that particular quote of Hubbard's to be rather baffling...



Same here. Even when I was in I thought it funny.
What it really means to me is "Do your work and don't complain".:confused2:

Work isn't supposed to be free. Although more than one definition of free fits there.

[HelluvaHoax!]

I've always found that particular quote of Hubbard's to be rather baffling...

Yeah, that one was a total stumper for me too! ("The work was free. Keep it so.")

I listed it on a thread about certain Scn datums that I had no idea how to apply. I thought there were some really excellent posts and viewpoints in answer to that little gem of a mystery... (particularly a few posts by Veda)

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=13628

[Voltaire's Child]

Same here. Even when I was in I thought it funny.
What it really means to me is "Do your work and don't complain".:confused2:

Work isn't supposed to be free. Although more than one definition of free fits there.

What I find baffling is this: The work. Ok, the work is Scn and Dn. "Tech" and, I guess, "policy"- amirite?

And is it free? Hell, no! Is it just well, not free, but not too 'spensive? Again, hell no! I mean, jeez, they don't even really do much with the Scn free academie thingies anymore...

Maybe, by "free" he meant "the liberty to practice it". But actually, that doesn't even work. How much liberty did we have in CofS? How much staff enhancement time got hijacked to do something or other and burn the midnight oil?

So I really think that statement just does not cut it for me.

I'm tired. I'm going to bed. It's midnight. I'm about to turn into a pumpkin.

[programmer_guy]

I am speculating that what Hubbard meant (from the old days) was that he initially financed it from his own income from writing.

This is the only way I can make any sense of his statement.

[Ladybird]

I can only say I love you ladybird. :)) xxxxx

I love you too Terril!

[Ladybird]

What I find baffling is this: The work. Ok, the work is Scn and Dn. "Tech" and, I guess, "policy"- amirite?

And is it free? Hell, no! Is it just well, not free, but not too 'spensive? Again, hell no! I mean, jeez, they don't even really do much with the Scn free academie thingies anymore...

Maybe, by "free" he meant "the liberty to practice it". But actually, that doesn't even work. How much liberty did we have in CofS? How much staff enhancement time got hijacked to do something or other and burn the midnight oil?

So I really think that statement just does not cut it for me.

I'm tired. I'm going to bed. It's midnight. I'm about to turn into a pumpkin.


Fluffy, you talk too much. If your MO is to wear us all out you win. I'm going to bed now too.

[Mick Wenlock]

My two cents.

Give it time.

Give him time.

How many of us are in the same place we were when we first got out?

We needed time and space and other outside of Scientology experiences to process what we had gone through, what we were going through and where we were going.

I really wish people would stop jumping over the asses of Rathburn and Rinder and being the judge and jury. You don't really know what they are dealing with: physically, mentally and emotionally.

They have their own private hells to deal with. Let them deal with them as they see fit.

If you ever want them to be receptive to what you have to say to them, wait until they are ready and willing to hear it.

I have no doubt, personally, that they will come around.

When it happens for them.

Meanwhile, please leave them the fuck alone.

Judging them and antagonizing them and acting like general assholes to them will just make them hostile and defensive.

Put yourself in their position.

Would you personally be receptive to the shit that is being thrown at them?

Honestly?

Or would you say: "Fuck off and die. You weren't there. You don't know what it was like and what I am actually going through."


No problem leaving Rinder alone. Lotsa problems leaving Rathbun alone.

Marty is the one putting himself out there - if you do that then be prepared to be debated.

Rathbun and Rinder were the ones running the harassment of exes Lulu - when they attacked me and my friends then they picked their sides. If they wish to now change sides there had better be a bit more than "oh whoops sorry".

Sorry Lulu - they have a lot to answer for and I dont care how bad or uncomfortable that may make them feel.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

No problem leaving Rinder alone. Lotsa problems leaving Rathbun alone.

Marty is the one putting himself out there - if you do that then be prepared to be debated.

Rathbun and Rinder were the ones running the harassment of exes Lulu - when they attacked me and my friends then they picked their sides. If they wish to now change sides there had better be a bit more than "oh whoops sorry".

Sorry Lulu - they have a lot to answer for and I dont care how bad or uncomfortable that may make them feel.

The bottom line is if Miscavige didn't kick Rathbun and Rinder to the curb, they would still have their heads planted firmly up his ass and caring out every act of evil he asked of them. Rathbun even went crawling back begging Miscavige to take him back. Rathbun finally realized that Miscavige has no more use for him and freezoners are even more gullible than the Scientologist's in Hubbard's official cult, so he's now blowing smoke up the ass of freezoners by turning Miscavige into Xenu 2.0.

We all know Hubbard is the problem, Hubbard always was the problem, and Hubbard always will be the problem. Miscavige is just another one of Hubbard's creations and a convenient distraction to keep the focus off the creator of the evil.

[Lulu Belle]

No problem leaving Rinder alone. Lotsa problems leaving Rathbun alone.

Marty is the one putting himself out there - if you do that then be prepared to be debated.

Rathbun and Rinder were the ones running the harassment of exes Lulu - when they attacked me and my friends then they picked their sides. If they wish to now change sides there had better be a bit more than "oh whoops sorry".

Sorry Lulu - they have a lot to answer for and I dont care how bad or uncomfortable that may make them feel.

I can see your point.

[Voltaire's Child]

Fluffy, you talk too much. If your MO is to wear us all out you win. I'm going to bed now too.

Another put down. Kinda tired of that, Ladybird. Nobody's making you read the posts.

[AnonyMary]

I can see your point.

Lulu,

I posted on his blog multiple times and he treated me well until I questioned his idea that fair gaming began with DM. I tried reasoning with him but Marty is more than confused. He has made it clear that the only people he will listen to, or apologize to for any hurt or fairgaming he caused is if they are firm believers of scientology and LRH.

He considers any critic or protestor or Ex outside of that mindset to either be 'working for DM' or to be stupid and not worth dealing with. In my opinion, Marty is still trying to be Inp General RTC. He stated in the SP times videos that he left because he argued with DM for not wearing his hat. He believes that Miscavige failed to wear his hat in preserving the trademarks, the very trademarks he is now using, in violation of trademark law! LRH is his God. There's no changing that at this time and probably not in the foreseeable future.

[Voltaire's Child]

Disagreeing with someone is treating them badly? What exactly did he say or do to you?

[Ladybird]

Another put down. Kinda tired of that, Ladybird. Nobody's making you read the posts.

Give it a rest Fluffy. You know who your friends are and you know we all love you despite your troublesome ways.

This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89qB0VO-3K4&feature=related

[Voltaire's Child]

Nice to be loved despite my imaginary failings. :coolwink: :happydance:

[Ladybird]

Nice to be loved despite my imaginary failings. :coolwink: :happydance:


Oh Puleeze! Your failings are not imaginary in my world. My failings are simply non-existant in this or any other universe (except the physical universe where we all live today).

I do love you Fluffy. You are who you are. I would appreciate it if you found a different venue for your hairsplitting though. Maybe you see yourself as the "voice of reason" for newbies, but I am sure most of us who have been around for a week or two are tired of your same old song and dance. You might consider a new career as a dicitionary writer. There are a bunch of ex-scientologists up in the mountains who have done an amazing job of organizing words.

They used to credit Hubbard and Study Tech, but they don't anymore. It's still the best collection of dictionaries I have ever seen:

http://www.onelook.com/

[Voltaire's Child]

Oh Puleeze! Your failings are not imaginary in my world. My failings are simply non-existant in this or any other universe (except the physical universe where we all live today).

I do love you Fluffy. You are who you are. I would appreciate it if you found a different venue for your hairsplitting though. Maybe you see yourself as the "voice of reason" for newbies, but I am sure most of us who have been around for a week or two are tired of your same old song and dance. You might consider a new career as a dicitionary writer. There are a bunch of ex-scientologists up in the mountains who have done an amazing job of organizing words.

They used to credit Hubbard and Study Tech, but they don't anymore. It's still the best collection of dictionaries I have ever seen:

http://www.onelook.com/

I see myself as a forum contributor.

When I need advice or instructions, I will ask for them.

[Challenge]

Give it a rest Fluffy. You know who your friends are and you know we all love you despite your troublesome ways.

This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89qB0VO-3K4&feature=related

Speak for yourself!
I sure as hell don't love her.

Chlng

[Voltaire's Child]

My friends assure me that anyone with any sense is quite fond of me.

[olska]

This morning I read some of the articles and the comments that follow those articles on Marty Rathbun's site. It appears there is a "community" growing up to save scientology from DM and from the nattery crowd of ex-scientologists who gather on this board, and who are accused by several commenters of doing nothing about anything but bitching and nurturing each others' victimhood.

I wish them well with getting rid of DM as head honcho of the "church" -- they're gonna need all the luck they can get and all the help they can muster!

I am struck by Marty's recounting of an incident in which, part way through DM's beating up/ kicking/ physically abusing some unnamed person, DM's wife Shelly stepped in and stopped him (DM). Then later she (Shelly) sat across a desk from Marty -- who had apparently already suffered some physical attacks from DM -- and Shelley says wistfully (Marty's adjective):

“what are we going to do?”

and Marty replies with an equally wistful (his adjective):

“hell, I don’t know.”

Because I've been out here in the "wog" world much too much too long (all the while nattering like crazy and taking no action to do anything about anything to improve conditions in the world, of course), in my mind there is a quick and ready answer:

Bring the police. File a report. Charge DM with assault and battery. Bring as witnesses those others who have also been assaulted.

But this is the world of scientology, which has the stated purpose of "making the able more able;" so obviously I am so totally infected with overts, withholds, low-toned apathy, PTSness, out-of-valence and SP characteristics that I can't "as-is" anything or see the real truth of this situation...

So now I'm off to write a scathing KR on myself for doubting the effectiveness of Hubbard's wonderful tech and admin -- Cya when the EO releases me back into the world.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/eva-braun-replaces-manuela-saenz-part-1-in-a-three-part-series/

[Lulu Belle]

This morning I read some of the articles and the comments that follow those articles on Marty Rathbun's site. It appears there is a "community" growing up to save scientology from DM and from the nattery crowd of ex-scientologists who gather on this board, and who are accused by several commenters of doing nothing about anything but bitching and nurturing each others' victimhood.

I know. It's annoying.

The bright spot is that what is even more threatening to DM than critics are high profile defectors who offer Scientology outside of the Church.

They are very strong competition for the few public COS has left.

[olska]

Not simply annoying but APALLING (!!) is the fact that DM has been physically assaulting people (note: SEVERAL if not MANY PEOPLE, who could stand as witnesses for each other) apparently for years and years!

And this took place inside an organization that claims to have the answers to crime, insanity, and human abberration...

yet NOT ONE amongst all those "able" people at the top of that organization took the simple, straightforward, and obvious action:

call the police and bring assault and battery charges against Miscavige.

Looks like that ship sailed some years ago, yet these same people and their sycophants have the gall to belittle those of us out here in the real world who spend a little of our time pointing out the dissonance of these facts.

Yeah, it is annoying, but that is really no big deal -- it is even somewhat amusing considering that we still have our dignity, sanity, family, friends, homes, financial stability, freedom, health, etc. etc.

[Zinjifar]

It should be obvious that, for those intent on retaining Scientology's 'Own World' mentality, secrecy and 'above the law' pretentions, calling the 'cops' is *not* going to be an option.

Because, once the cops begin looking, they're not satisfied with 'half-truths' and 'acceptable truths'. Sweeping Scientology's dirty little secrets under the carpet would no longer be an option. And, Marty (and Mike) are at least privy to much of what's hidden there, and, it's telling that the 'worst' they're willing to talk about is some relatively minor physical abuse; not even the literally hundreds if not thousands of cases of keeping people captive and restrained, harassment and deliberate corruption *outside* of the Cult Compound.

No, Marty doesn't want the cops called any more than a drug dealer wants to call the cops about a broken window.

Zinj

[olska]

It should be obvious that, for those intent on retaining Scientology's 'Own World' mentality, secrecy and 'above the law' pretentions, calling the 'cops' is *not* going to be an option.
Zinj

It IS obvious.

[Iknowtoomuch]

It's like saying Communism is a good replacement for Fascism.

Both are terrible.

[Zinjifar]

Or, John Gotti retires from the mafia and starts a blog where he regrets having sometimes spoken unkindly about people and offering to console them if he hurt their feelings.

Zinj

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Or, John Gotti retires from the mafia and starts a blog where he regrets having sometimes spoken unkindly about people and offering to console them if he hurt their feelings.

Zinj

Actually it's more like John Gotti kicking his right hand man to the curb after he has no use for him. He then repeatedly tries crawling back to Gotti's good graces, but Gotti wants nothing to do with him .He then starts a blog where he regrets caring out Gotti's crimes and having sometimes spoken unkindly about people and offering to console them if he hurt their feelings.

Now he is to be nominated for sainthood and possibly a Noble Peace Prize.

Sometimes you can take the Chump out of the Org, but you can't cant the Scientology out of the chump. I guess Freedom is too much for some to handle and the suckers outside of the cult need a leader too, so it might as well be Marty. It's not like talking any sense into them is looking like it's going to be a likely option.

[apple]

I am struck by Marty's recounting of an incident in which, part way through DM's beating up/ kicking/ physically abusing some unnamed person, DM's wife Shelly stepped in and stopped him (DM). Then later she (Shelly) sat across a desk from Marty -- who had apparently already suffered some physical attacks from DM -- and Shelley says wistfully (Marty's adjective):

“what are we going to do?”

and Marty replies with an equally wistful (his adjective):

“hell, I don’t know.”
..... Hell, I dont get it. FIGHT BACK!!

[HelluvaHoax!]

..... Hell, I dont get it. FIGHT BACK!!


Shelly asks, what are we going to do?” And Marty replies with an equally wistful (his adjective): “hell, I don’t know.”

Now for the first time! MartyGate, the missing minutes of audiotape as that conversation continued. It is fairly expositive of paralyzed cult thinking while in the grips of Scn indoctrination. (note: das izt ein parody, ya?)

SHELLY: "Dave said he is going to have you and me both murdered and make it look like suicide."

MARTY: "I don't want to give you verbal data, but that sounds off policy to me."

SHELLY: "Shouldn't we do something to protect ourselves?!"

MARTY: "Let's just do what Ron says and write a 'Things That Shouldn't Be Report' ".

SHELLY: "But......He will do it! I can't sleep! I am terrified! I feel sick to my stomach!!"

MARTY: "Hmmmm, sounds like PTS. Let's take responsibility and get at cause here and take a look at what we are doing that is creating all of that antagonism from Dave."

[apple]

SHELLY: "Dave said he is going to have you and me both murdered and make it look like suicide.
Maybe, murdered... but one has to make a stand somewhere. Whats to stop him from doing it now. Or maybe DM will show some respect to those who stood up to him.

I wonder how much abuse Shelly has endured?

This is the leader of Scn. now, just as crazy as the last one. Somehow I dont think he will live as long though. The stress will eat him up in some way.

[AnonyMary]

Disagreeing with someone is treating them badly? What exactly did he say or do to you?

His rants about the exs and the anti's began after I pointed out that fair game tactics and polices on handling enemies scientology began long before Miscavige was born, that it began with Hubbard first, and included the PTS/SP tech handlings of suppressives of Scientology and disconnection policies and directives. He didn't like that at all. He used my comment one thread to begin his rant in another.Go read the blog, Claire.

[Voltaire's Child]

His rants about the exs and the anti's began after I pointed out that fair game tactics and polices on handling enemies scientology began long before Miscavige was born, that it began with Hubbard first, and included the PTS/SP tech handlings of suppressives of Scientology and disconnection policies and directives. He didn't like that at all. He used my comment one thread to begin his rant in another.Go read the blog, Claire.

That does not constitute bad treatment. You said he treated you well "until". If posting disagreements and rants were abusive...well, I won't say the obvious.

[AnonyMary]

That does not constitute bad treatment. You said he treated you well "until". If posting disagreements and rants were abusive...well, I won't say the obvious.

It's what he didn't post. If he disagrees and thinks you will distract from his party line, he stops posting your posts. Cutting off communication is disconnection and that is what he's done with a number of ex's. Ask Eldon.

[Voltaire's Child]

Cutting off communication isn't automatically disconnection, nor is it bad treatment. I'd say you got off lightly.

[Zinjifar]

The 'smiling face of socialism' was in Czechoslovakia in spring of '98. Marty and Mike do mange to grin, but, I'm not sure why.

Zinj

[FinallyFree]

Now for the first time! MartyGate, the missing minutes of audiotape as that conversation continued. It is fairly expositive of paralyzed cult thinking while in the grips of Scn indoctrination. (note: das izt ein parody, ya?)

SHELLY: "Dave said he is going to have you and me both murdered and make it look like suicide."

MARTY: "I don't want to give you verbal data, but that sounds off policy to me."

SHELLY: "Shouldn't we do something to protect ourselves?!"

MARTY: "Let's just do what Ron says and write a 'Things That Shouldn't Be Report' ".

SHELLY: "But......He will do it! I can't sleep! I am terrified! I feel sick to my stomach!!"

MARTY: "Hmmmm, sounds like PTS. Let's take responsibility and get at cause here and take a look at what we are doing that is creating all of that antagonism from Dave."

haha - too bad it might be close to the truth (of course these would have been deeply hidden thoughts rather than an actual conversation me thinks :coolwink: )

[HelluvaHoax!]

haha - too bad it might be close to the truth (of course these would have been deeply hidden thoughts rather than an actual conversation me thinks :coolwink: )

As you like it FinallyFree! :hattip:

Shelly marched up to Mark's desk and silently sat down. Her TR's were in, as she faced him a long but very uncomfortable moment. Telepathically, she betrayed a deeply hidden terror that DM's serial physical assaults on S.O. staff was about to be murderously unleashed in her's and Marty's direction.

Marty got it.

He mentally contemplated optimum survival across the Dynamics. While it was quite clear that staff beatings were the "greatest good" Marty wondered to himself whether he should cc his "Things That Shouldn't Be Report" to the police so that he and Shelly might avoid being murdered. But, quickly applying the Doubt Formula, Marty reasoned that it would be a bad, bad, bad overt to cut across Command Intention with his hideous reactive thoughts.

Shelly got it.

Marty sat a comfortable distance apart from Shelly and did nothing. His TR's were in.

Later, when Marty had finished his post duties for the night, he smiled to himself as he delicately retrieved an ancient document from it's protective case. He gently laid the curled and brittle piece of paper down on his desk and began reading it as he had the hundreds of times before.

As Marty read Ron's holy words on the overt-motivator sequence, his mind searched for his own contra-survival acts that caused him to have critical thoughts of DM. Surely, he cognited, murder is a motivator.

Marty clicked his pen so that it was ready to write his O/W's. A profound but familiar feeling of relief swept over him as he began to write.

[FinallyFree]

As you like it FinallyFree! :hattip:

Shelly marched up to Mark's desk and silently sat down. Her TR's were in, as she faced him a long but very uncomfortable moment. Telepathically, she betrayed a deeply hidden terror that DM's serial physical assaults on S.O. staff was about to be murderously unleashed in her's and Marty's direction.

Marty got it.

He mentally contemplated optimum survival across the Dynamics. While it was quite clear that staff beatings were the "greatest good" Marty wondered to himself whether he should cc his "Things That Shouldn't Be Report" to the police so that he and Shelly might avoid being murdered. But, quickly applying the Doubt Formula, Marty reasoned that it would be a bad, bad, bad overt to cut across Command Intention with his hideous reactive thoughts.

Shelly got it.

Marty sat a comfortable distance apart from Shelly and did nothing. His TR's were in.

Later, when Marty had finished his post duties for the night, he smiled to himself as he delicately retrieved an ancient document from it's protective case. He gently laid the curled and brittle piece of paper down on his desk and began reading it as he had the hundreds of times before.

As Marty read Ron's holy words on the overt-motivator sequence, his mind searched for his own contra-survival acts that caused him to have critical thoughts of DM. Surely, he cognited, murder is a motivator.

Marty clicked his pen so that it was ready to write his O/W's. A profound but familiar feeling of relief swept over him as he began to write.

VERY nicely done!! LOL!

[HelluvaHoax!]

VERY nicely done!! LOL!

Ciao FF and thx!

While this seemingly ridiculous "theater of the absurd" parody might seem like an unrealistic exaggeration when considering Rathbun's Scn-indoctrinated mindset, I can relay a TRUE story that closely parallels it.

Close friends of mine, a married Scn couple, left their young daughter and son with a teenaged babysitter. They were watching tv when the sound of breaking glass startled them. Someone was trying to break into the house! The babysitter called 911 and they told them to stay where they were in the basement. The operator stayed on the line while police were despatched.

The terrified kids hid in the basement with the cellphone. They heard police arriving and then suddenly much screaming, commotion and... A GUNSHOT!

I will make a long story shorter. The robber had wrestled with the responding policeman and grabbed his service revolver and SHOT the policeman, killing him. The robber escaped, but was caught eventually.

The parents of the kids later behaved like "Good Scientologists" and told me (unsolicited) that they wanted to handle their kids. That sounded okay, i thought because perhaps there was trauma. But their Scientology training had taught them to be concerned about "WHY THE KIDS PULLED IN THIS MOTIVATOR".

I am not f*cking kidding. Murderer breaking inside their house. Children's lives threatened. Dead cop. A major crime scene. A human tragedy.

But they wanted the kids to "take responsibility" for "pulling in" all this "enturbulation" and pulling in a "motivator".

That's why defenders of the technology of L. Ron Hubbard have no credibility. They are contributing to others blindly walking into the dangerous trap of Scn, one way or another, despite their protestations or "cherry picking" of the tech.

Rathbun, despite his outstanding work in exposing some of the crimes of COB, is still hopelessly lost inside his Hubbardized mind. He now earnestly endeavors to do to others what has been done to him (i.e. to "salvage" people using Scientology). In this role he is no longer an unwitting victim but a profiteering fraud perpetrator.

It is a very sorry state to be in. I truly wish that Marty "Get well soon!"

[Free to shine]

Ciao FF and thx!

While this seemingly ridiculous "theater of the absurd" parody might seem like an unrealistic exaggeration when considering Rathbun's Scn-indoctrinated mindset, I can relay a TRUE story that closely parallels it.

Close friends of mine, a married Scn couple, left their young daughter and son with a teenaged babysitter. They were watching tv when the sound of breaking glass startled them. Someone was trying to break into the house! The babysitter called 911 and they told them to stay where they were in the basement. The operator stayed on the line while police were despatched.

The terrified kids hid in the basement with the cellphone. They heard police arriving and then suddenly much screaming, commotion and... A GUNSHOT!

I will make a long story shorter. The robber had wrestled with the responding policeman and grabbed his service revolver and SHOT the policeman, killing him. The robber escaped, but was caught eventually.

The parents of the kids later behaved like "Good Scientologists" and told me (unsolicited) that they wanted to handle their kids. That sounded okay, i thought because perhaps there was trauma. But their Scientology training had taught them to be concerned about "WHY THE KIDS PULLED IN THIS MOTIVATOR".

I am not f*cking kidding. Murderer breaking inside their house. Children's lives threatened. Dead cop. A major crime scene. A human tragedy.

But they wanted the kids to "take responsibility" for "pulling in" all this "enturbulation" and pulling in a "motivator".

That's why defenders of the technology of L. Ron Hubbard have no credibility. They are contributing to others walking into Scn, one way or another, despite their protestations or "cherry picking" of the tech. And that's why Rathbun, despite his fantastic work in exposing some of the crimes of COB, is still hopelessly lost inside his Hubbardized mind.

It is a very sorry state to be in. I truly wish that Marty "Get well soon!"

Geez! :ohmy:

[HelluvaHoax!]

Geez! :ohmy:


FF, Truly sorry if that post was unexpectedly shocking or disturbing.

Often I have to laugh at the absurdity of Scientology and CoS.

But once in a while, in a real LIFE & DEATH situation...the enormity of Scientology's damage to human rationality and behavior comes thundering home. And that's when I have to rant just a little! :D

The Scn couple I speak of I have known I was in the 8th grade. They are upper level OTs, very highly tech trained. And they are the loveliest people you would ever care to meet, intelligent, loving and passionate about their kids and helping others. These are not losers, geeks, criminals, charlatans or con men. They are simply good-hearted, well-meaning people who have been covertly lead into a hideously dark slave chamber of Hubbard's construct.

I love these folks and understand how they think. I lived on planet Scientology for a while myself.

But, like 99.99% of Good Scientologists, they do not "cherry pick" only certain applications of the tech. They download the entire bundle of pre-determined mental software. And Scn's software-from-hell has no "remove" option.

When you try to remove it, Scn removes YOU!

end of rant! :hattip:

[MostlyLurker]

... Scn's software-from-hell has no "remove" option.

When you try to remove it, Scn removes YOU!



That reminds me of a fake Antivirus program who scare the user with fake alerts inducing them to buy and install a software that then steal their passwords and cannot be easily removed (forcing you to reinstall the system).


http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/images/blog/fakealert_5.gif (http://blog.trendmicro.com/fake-antivirus-trojans-ramping-up/)


Scientology can be certainly classified as Malware (Malicious software).

[HelluvaHoax!]

That reminds me of a fake Antivirus program who scare the user with fake alerts inducing them to buy and install a software that then steal their passwords and cannot be easily removed (forcing you to reinstall the system).


http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/images/blog/fakealert_5.gif (http://blog.trendmicro.com/fake-antivirus-trojans-ramping-up/)


Scientology can be certainly classified as Malware (Malicious software).

Perfect ML!

There is cosmic symmetry in that the very first thing I read or learned about Scn was Hubbard's theory of the mind being a COMPUTER. Now his theory has come full cycle to a surrealistic surprise ending.

It is altogether fitting and sublimely ironic that after his "discovery" he then systematically went about hacking into trusting folks minds with his "Total Freedom Malware" that didn't provide for nor permit any UNINSTALL.

Who knew that the ultimate "held down seven" was embedded by Hubbard himself.

[Carmel]

Ciao FF and thx!

While this seemingly ridiculous "theater of the absurd" parody might seem like an unrealistic exaggeration when considering Rathbun's Scn-indoctrinated mindset, I can relay a TRUE story that closely parallels it.

Close friends of mine, a married Scn couple, left their young daughter and son with a teenaged babysitter. They were watching tv when the sound of breaking glass startled them. Someone was trying to break into the house! The babysitter called 911 and they told them to stay where they were in the basement. The operator stayed on the line while police were despatched.

The terrified kids hid in the basement with the cellphone. They heard police arriving and then suddenly much screaming, commotion and... A GUNSHOT!

I will make a long story shorter. The robber had wrestled with the responding policeman and grabbed his service revolver and SHOT the policeman, killing him. The robber escaped, but was caught eventually.

The parents of the kids later behaved like "Good Scientologists" and told me (unsolicited) that they wanted to handle their kids. That sounded okay, i thought because perhaps there was trauma. But their Scientology training had taught them to be concerned about "WHY THE KIDS PULLED IN THIS MOTIVATOR".

I am not f*cking kidding. Murderer breaking inside their house. Children's lives threatened. Dead cop. A major crime scene. A human tragedy.

But they wanted the kids to "take responsibility" for "pulling in" all this "enturbulation" and pulling in a "motivator".

That's why defenders of the technology of L. Ron Hubbard have no credibility. They are contributing to others blindly walking into the dangerous trap of Scn, one way or another, despite their protestations or "cherry picking" of the tech.

Rathbun, despite his outstanding work in exposing some of the crimes of COB, is still hopelessly lost inside his Hubbardized mind. He now earnestly endeavors to do to others what has been done to him (i.e. to "salvage" people using Scientology). In this role he is no longer an unwitting victim but a profiteering fraud perpetrator.

It is a very sorry state to be in. I truly wish that Marty "Get well soon!"


FF, Truly sorry if that post was unexpectedly shocking or disturbing.

Often I have to laugh at the absurdity of Scientology and CoS.

But once in a while, in a real LIFE & DEATH situation...the enormity of Scientology's damage to human rationality and behavior comes thundering home. And that's when I have to rant just a little! :D

The Scn couple I speak of I have known I was in the 8th grade. They are upper level OTs, very highly tech trained. And they are the loveliest people you would ever care to meet, intelligent, loving and passionate about their kids and helping others. These are not losers, geeks, criminals, charlatans or con men. They are simply good-hearted, well-meaning people who have been covertly lead into a hideously dark slave chamber of Hubbard's construct.

I love these folks and understand how they think. I lived on planet Scientology for a while myself.

But, like 99.99% of Good Scientologists, they do not "cherry pick" only certain applications of the tech. They download the entire bundle of pre-determined mental software. And Scn's software-from-hell has no "remove" option.

When you try to remove it, Scn removes YOU!

end of rant! :hattip:
I understand and agree with you that many or most 'Scientologists' buy the kind of BS you've described here, and that they then run it on their kids if they have them.

However, I disagree with your statement that "their Scientology training taught them that" - From my experience, of all the "hard core" scios I knew, it was pretty well only the "trained" ones who didn't run that crap on their kids. I only know of two trained Scientologists who did, and in their case, it was more to do with who they were in the first place and their willingness to buy into 'group think'.

What you're talking about is abominable, and is no doubt a result of the Scientology 'package'...... I'm not a FZer, and I'm certainly not a fan of Marty's, I just disagree that what you've described is the result of Scn 'training' as you you have stated. To me, it is the result of the Scn indoc, which is "effective" because of the "practices" within the CofS and "enforced ethics", not "training".

[Free to shine]

FF, Truly sorry if that post was unexpectedly shocking or disturbing.

Often I have to laugh at the absurdity of Scientology and CoS.

But once in a while, in a real LIFE & DEATH situation...the enormity of Scientology's damage to human rationality and behavior comes thundering home. And that's when I have to rant just a little! :D

The Scn couple I speak of I have known I was in the 8th grade. They are upper level OTs, very highly tech trained. And they are the loveliest people you would ever care to meet, intelligent, loving and passionate about their kids and helping others. These are not losers, geeks, criminals, charlatans or con men. They are simply good-hearted, well-meaning people who have been covertly lead into a hideously dark slave chamber of Hubbard's construct.

I love these folks and understand how they think. I lived on planet Scientology for a while myself.

But, like 99.99% of Good Scientologists, they do not "cherry pick" only certain applications of the tech. They download the entire bundle of pre-determined mental software. And Scn's software-from-hell has no "remove" option.

When you try to remove it, Scn removes YOU!

end of rant! :hattip:

Don't worry Helluva, nothing much shocks me anymore..it's just when children are involved I have to put a smilie or rant. 4 decades of having that 'technology' ravage the life of generations of a family is more than enough to be surprised at nothing. I was thinking about it today, trying to explain a few small pieces to someone, the end result of lives wasted following a lie. It was almost impossible, the scope is too huge, the destruction too large and far reaching. To watch people justify 'the good bits of the tech' it is hard, having seen the end result of just about every avenue of it's application to life from births to deaths. And it wasn't because it was 'applied wrongly", rather that it was done exactly as intended.

[Carmel]

<snip> And it wasn't because it was 'applied wrongly", rather that it was done exactly as intended.
IMO, given different perspectives (each with validity), it was 'both'.

Whatever, whichever, when ya look at the 'whole' scene, it is/was sad indeed.

[themessenger]

That reminds me of a fake Antivirus program who scare the user with fake alerts inducing them to buy and install a software that then steal their passwords and cannot be easily removed (forcing you to reinstall the system).


http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/images/blog/fakealert_5.gif (http://blog.trendmicro.com/fake-antivirus-trojans-ramping-up/)


Scientology can be certainly classified as Malware (Malicious software).

That is one of the best analogies to scientology I've ever seen! :clap:

[HelluvaHoax!]

I understand and agree with you that many or most 'Scientologists' buy the kind of BS you've described here, and that they then run it on their kids if they have them. However, I disagree with your statement that "their Scientology training taught them that" - From my experience, of all the "hard core" scios I knew, it was pretty well only the "trained" ones who didn't run that crap on their kids. I only know of two trained Scientologists who did, and in their case, it was more to do with who they were in the first place and their willingness to buy into 'group think'. What you're talking about is abominable, and is no doubt a result of the scientology 'package'...... I'm not a FZer, and I'm certainly not a fan of Marty's, I just disagree that what you've described is the result of Scn 'training' as you you have stated. To me, it is the result of the Scn indoc, which is "effective" because of the "practices" within the CofS and "enforced ethics", not "training".

Ciao C!

I tend to agree with you with one qualification.

According to Hubbard's tech, if one studies a subject sufficiently well and long, eventually one develops enough understanding to acquire "judgment". No disagreement there!

But, there eventually comes a point in the journey on The Road To Total Freedom where the road splits in two opposite directions.

The road going left requires the forfeiture of the well-earned "judgment" but leads to significant CASE GAIN....the gaining of case in the form of stupefied indoctrination into the scriptures of L. Ron Hubbard.

The road going right requires that one retain "judgment" which is only possible by retaining some aspect of one's thinking that is NO CASE GAIN.

One of Life's many surprise endings.

I think therefore I am NCG.

I think therefore I am AN EX-SCN.

Guess that's why we are all hanging out at this cool little party called ESMB, ain't it? :happydance:

[Kutta]

When I think of some scientology derived practices I subjected my children to, I feel a great sadness. Two come to mind. When my about 10 year old daughter accidentally broke a dish belonging to her grandmother, I insisted that she 'make amends'. Despite her grandmother saying it wasn't necessary. Now I can see how humiliating and invalidating that was for my daughter, making her feel like a bad person in the eyes of her grandparents whom she loved and from whom she naturally sought love and approval, making her feel like a criminal for doing something that was entirely accidental.

When in the SO, my daughter and a friend went on an excursion, walking over the fields and dales from Stonelands to a nearby village where they bought a packet of chips. It may have been from the local pub. This caused a major PR flap and all Stonelands staff were called to a meeting to deal with this. I was required to put my daughter through ethics conditions, including working in the kitchen. (She didn't mind that too much as she and Mick the cook got on well). But for heaven's sake, those girls were doing what they should have been doing, exploring their environment, enjoying nature, and partcipating a world where children buy packets of chips with impunity.

Why oh why did I not express this view? Why did I allow myself to oppress my child instead of just loving her and supporting her good adventurous spirit?

[Kutta]

In reply to Carmel, was it because I was not sufficiently tech trained? I was a class 4 auditor. I think not. I don't understand how being highly tech trained would make one make different judgements. Many who decided on the ethics course of action for my daughter were the highest tech trained SO members at St Hill.

[Free to shine]

I am not at liberty at this time to discuss in detail how scientology affected the lives of this extended family and it's resulting devastation. What I have written so far is the tip of the iceberg. It's all too easy to think that the 'tech' wasn't applied properly in some cases, and no doubt that is true when you talk of specific auditing or "handling" of specific people. That is almost irrelevant to the big picture I am talking about, which is the end result of the application of scientology to lives and living those lives, which surely is it's purpose? To try and differentiate between the "practices" and the "training" is as silly as trying to differentiate between the "church" and snippets of 'tech'. It is all one subject, and it came from Hubbard and is the result of his ideas. No matter how one tries to pry a snippet loose from the body of the work, it is still connected and interrelated by the concepts behind it.

I'm not saying one can't have individual 'wins' from the 'tech', of course that happens. I am talking of living a scientology driven life, from birth to death, surely the stated aim of a 'cleared planet'? I am talking of people who gave up everything to become 'highly trained' and oatees, and the ramifications across the lives of many. And those trained people were also loving and caring people, who did the best they could by applying scientology to every event or issue that arose, from the birth of babies, the education of children, the angst of teenagers, the marriages, the family relationships, the illnesses that every life has, to death and "dropping the body".

This is the life that Rathbun and those who cling to the 'tech' want for all, and I am saying that it really isn't what it's cracked up to be.

[Carmel]

In reply to Carmel, was it because I was not sufficiently tech trained? I was a class 4 auditor. I think not. I don't understand how being highly tech trained would make one make different judgements. Many who decided on the ethics course of action for my daughter were the highest tech trained SO members at St Hill.
I don't know, Kutta.....I didn't live your life, and you didn't live mine.

My Class 4 training was probably about a 20th of all the training I did. I had to work with the stuff, and make it work, and/or watch it when it didn't.

I was "working with it", and trying to survive within the ranks of the org, when I kept studying more. Maybe I was looking for stuff that I wanted to find, or needed to find, and that's why I found it.

I don't know how or why, but the more training I did, the more I seemed to find that helped my effort to try and put things right. I knew and had so much "tech" at my fingertips, that it "protected" and helped me, in so many of my endeavours and with so many of my choices which were counter to what most in the group found 'acceptable'.

I was very often or usually in trouble or out of favour with the SO Execs (I wasn't SO though). Back then, I considered that they had it "all wrong". Now I see that it was probably me that had it all wrong (in regard to how things were "supposed" to go within orgs). Whatever, it was only ever the 'techies' who backed me up, if and when I got support - They usually always agreed and at least gave me moral support, where others didn't.

For example, I had a fair bit to do with the Cadet Org (through being a Board Member of the Scn School and working with the AO, while I was ED of the Class V Org). I could see these kids being put through all sorts of crap ethics handlings and programs. It plagued me. I used what references I had, to change a lot of that, through cramming Snr SO Execs in ANZO who were responsible for it and through pushing the appropriate "tech" in their faces. At first I was in the poo for daring to cram them, so I rallied support from the SNR C/S ANZO, and the Snr C/S AO and Co, to get it sorted. We did, and those kids got out of being put through all that crap. There was a time there, when the Cadet Org kids even got to play rugby in a local comp (they'd go to training once a week, and play on Saturdays). Eventually, new Execs came along, so it didn't last forever. At least though, some "sanity" reigned for a time, and it wouldn't have if the techies didn't stand together and show these "untrained" Execs who were running the show and by-passing into the Cadet Org, that they were off the rails.

The above example, is one of many. Hey, I know a Class8, OT8 who wouldn't know his ass from his ear hole. In the main though, it was the "techies" I knew who were the ones that made a difference in regard to making things right, after "untrained" Snr Execs had come along with their "spluey" orders and/or implementations of this and that. It was the guys who were "trained" who kept things sane or at least "saner" in ANZO, in the '80's and most of the 90's, despite the fact that they were the minority and despite the fact that it always seemed to be one battle after another.

I'm not being biased here, it's the way it was in Sydney, for the two decades nearly, prior to GAT and the full on RTC by-pass in '97/'98 - It was the "trained" guys who "held the fort" for as long as they could, before it got broken down and destroyed. In Sydney (ClassV orgs, AOSH ANZO, FOLO and the CLO) the trained minority, were so often in opposition to the vast majority who weren't trained. That's a fact. It wasn't by co-incidence, IMO, and that's why I made the point which I did on this thread.

[I told you I was trouble]

I DESPISE what scientology does to a family.


Ask the children of almost any staff member/zealous scientologist what they really want ... and IF they feel safe replying from the heart ... (which I doubt) I bet they would say they don't want scientology in their lives and do just want to be normal with common sense being utilised instead of 'tech' ... sadly, 'normal' and all of it's joys and imperfections are not known to most of the poor little souls still trapped in scientology, so it is pointless to ask ... I realise that, I am just very sad at the moment for the children (and parents and other family members) held hostage in the sycophantically agreed upon insanity.They observe their parents (and others) being overworked and over regged and treated like shit on a regular basis.

These unfortunate children, often become very good actors IMO ... and they can 'produce' the desired robotic 'reaction' upon request (of seniors/parents/nannies etc) ... just like the grown up scios do, in fact they are DRILLED to produce certain results!

Young children are having to survive in a place where no-one can truly relax and say what they really think or feel, as there is always a 'threat' hanging over them of some action (ethics or other) and they are all trained from birth (or the point that the parent got involved in the cult) to know that anything bad that happens ... well, they 'pulled it in' ... and on top of all that, the little ones cannot even trust each other as they are all trained to 'KR' and/or report on any 'non survival' behaviour!

Not very healthy really is it.

Luckily, (for parents) children are generally pretty forgiving and a genuine apology often goes a long way towards healing.




:storm:

[Carmel]

I DESPISE what scientology does to a family.


Ask the children of almost any staff member/zealous scientologist what they really want ... and IF they feel safe replying from the heart ... (which I doubt) I bet they would say they don't want scientology in their lives and do just want to be normal with common sense being utilised instead of 'tech' ... sadly, 'normal' and all of it's joys and imperfections are not known to most of the poor little souls still trapped in scientology, so it is pointless to ask ... I realise that, I am just very sad at the moment for the children (and parents and other family members) held hostage in the sycophantically agreed upon insanity.They observe their parents (and others) being overworked and over regged and treated like shit on a regular basis.

These unfortunate children, often become very good actors IMO ... and they can 'produce' the desired robotic 'reaction' upon request (of seniors/parents/nannies etc) ... just like the grown up scios do, in fact they are DRILLED to produce certain results!

Young children are having to survive in a place where no-one can truly relax and say what they really think or feel, as there is always a 'threat' hanging over them of some action (ethics or other) and they are all trained from birth (or the point that the parent got involved in the cult) to know that anything bad that happens ... well, they 'pulled it in' ... and on top of all that, the little ones cannot even trust each other as they are all trained to 'KR' and/or report on any 'non survival' behaviour!

Not very healthy really is it.
Nup, bloody awful, and it will continue until all the Scn Organizations cease to exist.


Luckily, (for parents) children are generally pretty forgiving and a genuine apology often goes a long way towards healing.

Yeah, but not "luckily" for the kids. Sadly, there are many Scn kids (now young adults and older) who will never get any such apology. But worse than that, besides having to endure much and be deprived of much during their childhood, there are many who never had and will never have the love and support of their parents - This issue alone (besides all the rest), is reason enough to oppose Scn and the CofS.

[I told you I was trouble]

Nup, bloody awful, and it will continue until all the Scn Organizations cease to exist.


Yeah, but not "luckily" for the kids. Sadly, there are many Scn kids (now young adults and older) who will never get any such apology. But worse than that, besides having to endure much and be deprived of much during their childhood, there are many who never had and will never have the love and support of their parents - This issue alone (besides all the rest), is reason enough to oppose Scn and the CofS.


True, it's great that that is now happening (opposition) and that we here are all basically in agreement on that.

:wink2:

[scooter]

I don't know, Kutta.....I didn't live your life, and you didn't live mine.

My Class 4 training was probably about a 20th of all the training I did. I had to work with the stuff, and make it work, and/or watch it when it didn't.

I was "working with it", and trying to survive within the ranks of the org, when I kept studying more. Maybe I was looking for stuff that I wanted to find, or needed to find, and that's why I found it.

I don't know how or why, but the more training I did, the more I seemed to find that helped my effort to try and put things right. I knew and had so much "tech" at my fingertips, that it "protected" and helped me, in so many of my endeavours and with so many of my choices which were counter to what most in the group found 'acceptable'.

I was very often or usually in trouble or out of favour with the SO Execs (I wasn't SO though). Back then, I considered that they had it "all wrong". Now I see that it was probably me that had it all wrong (in regard to how things were "supposed" to go within orgs). Whatever, it was only ever the 'techies' who backed me up, if and when I got support - They usually always agreed and at least gave me moral support, where others didn't.

For example, I had a fair bit to do with the Cadet Org (through being a Board Member of the Scn School and working with the AO, while I was ED of the Class V Org). I could see these kids being put through all sorts of crap ethics handlings and programs. It plagued me. I used what references I had, to change a lot of that, through cramming Snr SO Execs in ANZO who were responsible for it and through pushing the appropriate "tech" in their faces. At first I was in the poo for daring to cram them, so I rallied support from the SNR C/S ANZO, and the Snr C/S AO and Co, to get it sorted. We did, and those kids got out of being put through all that crap. There was a time there, when the Cadet Org kids even got to play rugby in a local comp (they'd go to training once a week, and play on Saturdays). Eventually, new Execs came along, so it didn't last forever. At least though, some "sanity" reigned for a time, and it wouldn't have if the techies didn't stand together and show these "untrained" Execs who were running the show and by-passing into the Cadet Org, that they were off the rails.

The above example, is one of many. Hey, I know a Class8, OT8 who wouldn't know his ass from his ear hole. In the main though, it was the "techies" I knew who were the ones that made a difference in regard to making things right, after "untrained" Snr Execs had come along with their "spluey" orders and/or implementations of this and that. It was the guys who were "trained" who kept things sane or at least "saner" in ANZO, in the '80's and most of the 90's, despite the fact that they were the minority and despite the fact that it always seemed to be one battle after another.

I'm not being biased here, it's the way it was in Sydney, for the two decades nearly, prior to GAT and the full on RTC by-pass in '97/'98 - It was the "trained" guys who "held the fort" for as long as they could, before it got broken down and destroyed. In Sydney (ClassV orgs, AOSH ANZO, FOLO and the CLO) the trained minority, were so often in opposition to the vast majority who weren't trained. That's a fact. It wasn't by co-incidence, IMO, and that's why I made the point which I did on this thread.

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

I agree totally with your summation of those times, Carmel.

It was only those who spent their staff time actually trying to help others who actually tried to do the right thing - the rest were busy getting the stats up no matter what the cost.

I think it wasn't so much the training we did (although that helped) as we had a desire to help others and spent our days doing (we thought) just that.

I personally helped a lot of people with the tech but I also failed to help or, even worse, did on occasion harm people with Hubbard's and especially Miscavige's methods.

I personally haven't sorted out the chaff from the wheat yet. Some of it is good. But none of it is truly predictably workable.

And that is my biggest problem with it - you just don't know what result you will get, despite the hype about workability.

It's false advertising of an inherently totalitarian system designed to enslave you for eternity.

[Carmel]

<snip>
It's false advertising of an inherently totalitarian system designed to enslave you for eternity.
Yep, and factually, it is fraudulent in it's presentation as a religion.

[Kutta]

Thanks Carmel; I get it now. BTW, I didn't mean to infer that I was well trained as a class 4. I certainly didn't have a large volume of tech at my finger tips. I think it is great that you and I expect Harry and others were able to fend off some of the insanities by using your tech trained knowledge. I don't know why, but where children were involved at St Hill (in the late 70s, early 80s) there appeared to me to be no-one who was prepared to go into bat for them, using either tech, common sense, understanding, or humanity. To my shame I didn't either, except by removing them when we left in 1981.

It is because of that shame and the hurt a mother feels when her child is hurt that I posted my personal tale, in the hope that by sharing, some of that might be exorcised. It hasn't, but maybe it is a process.

The good news is that my daughter's spirit was not crushed, though she had quite a bunch of stuff to deal with in later times that stemmed from the strife she ran into. She is now a most highly spirited, feisty adult and mother to 3 amazing kids.

BTW, also, among the highly trained personnel at Stonelands at that time, we had Richard Reiss, now I believe the top CS at Flag. He and his wife Carla had a baby and a toddler in the nursery. My recollection is that they kept very much to themselves and neither they nor the other techies involved themselves in correcting outnesses in the org or at Stonelands, apart from the cramming of auditors or students. Also, there was probably a heightened sensitivity to 'out PR' at St Hill due to the presence of GO staff who tended to laud it over us mere SO members.

[Veda]

Someone with a wide range of familiarity with the "tech" of Scientology, could - if he/she had good intentions - steer others in a positive direction by selectively referencing the saner pieces of "tech." Scientologists, particularly "organization types," love exact LRH references, especially if accompanied by a dose of official-sounding Scientology lingo & proper formatting in writing.

Nonetheless, the subject was a "package deal," and that "package" http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=19183&postcount=1 was likely to eventually assert itself, despite the efforts of some.

The "tech," IMO, is a mixed bag. For example...

Includes 1961 Children's Security Check:

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/isd/isd-5i.htm

Some Wikipedia info on Sec Checking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientology_Security_Checks

[Carmel]

Thanks Carmel; I get it now. BTW, I didn't mean to infer that I was well trained as a class 4
Hey, I didn't think that ya did. :)


I think it is great that you and I expect Harry and others were able to fend off some of the insanities by using your tech trained knowledge.

Yeah, the likes of Harry and Peter Sparshot and Jan Hill and David Graham (mate), set such a good example for us 'youngins' coming up the line, and while they were still around, they gave us so much support in more ways than one.


I don't know why, but where children were involved at St Hill (in the late 70s, early 80s) there appeared to me to be no-one who was prepared to go into bat for them, using either tech, common sense, understanding, or humanity.

Well, sadly, that has been the "norm" within the ranks of the CofS.


To my shame I didn't either, except by removing them when we left in 1981.
Hey, ya left and took them with ya - good on you! :thumbsup:


It is because of my shame and the hurt a mother feels when her child is hurt that I posted my personal tale, in the hope that by sharing, some of that might be exorcised. It hasn't, but maybe it is a process.
I probably didn't help, in that regard, by going off on a tangent. I'm sorry.

Crikey, to this day, I still feel regret and guilt over certain things, in regard to my kids. I wasn't SO, and they didn't get the usual crap run on them, but from my pregnancies with them and forward from that, they usually or mostly had a mum whose mind was elsewhere. It's my biggest 'personal' regret, over Scn. I feel I was robbed, and that they were robbed. Yet, the boys don't have it as a problem. I'm sure your daughter doesn't have it as one now either.

As a Mum, it's those things that can eat away at ya, 'cause your kids are the most important thing to you in the world. Back then, I'm sure that ya did support her and love her as best you could, given your circumstances, just as most of us did. My angst regarding my kids, and regarding a period there when I was in another world that didn't include them in an emotional or spiritual sense, has certainly been a problem for me, but has waned over this last year or so. I'm sure your angst over your daughter will for you too, simply because you're looking at it. I am looking at it these days, sorta like this........yes, I regret, but I can't turn back the clock, and if things were different, then my kids wouldn't be who they are today, and today, I have three young men who I wouldn't have any other way.

They're our babies, but they're always tougher, stronger, more capable, loving, accepting and resilient than we usually give them credit for, I believe. I don't think it's ever as bad as the hearts of mums would have us believe.

Don't forget ta give yourself a pat on the back for all the love and support you did give your daughter, and for contributing to who she is today.......maybe even go and have a yak and a cry and a laugh with her about it.

All the best with it, Kutta. :)

[scooter]

...BTW, also, among the highly trained personnel at Stonelands at that time, we had Richard Reiss, now I believe the top CS at Flag. He and his wife Carla had a baby and a toddler in the nursery. My recollection is that they kept very much to themselves and neither they nor the other techies involved themselves in correcting outnesses in the org or at Stonelands, apart from the cramming of auditors or students. Also, there was probably a heightened sensitivity to 'out PR' at St Hill due to the presence of GO staff who tended to laud it over us mere SO members.

Richard arrived at Flag after Alain Cartuzinski(?) was RPFed in late 87-early 88 and very much kept to himself there too - he certainly wasn't the extrovert that many of the other top techies were at FSO like Edie Lundeen or Carolyn Webb. He didn't seem to know how to just chat socially from what I observed of him. Nice enough guy and I certainly had no problems with him as Senior C/S FLB at the time - he seemed competent as his job. But I was a mere student so I have only a few interactions with him to go by.

But there were some horror stories of neglect from the time I was there with regards to the way the kids of SO members were treated generally - like they were "just Dev-T" for production. But there were also a lot of crew I knew who cared deeply for their kids and did the best they could for them.

[Lulu Belle]

Lulu,

I posted on his blog multiple times and he treated me well until I questioned his idea that fair gaming began with DM. I tried reasoning with him but Marty is more than confused. He has made it clear that the only people he will listen to, or apologize to for any hurt or fairgaming he caused is if they are firm believers of scientology and LRH.

He considers any critic or protestor or Ex outside of that mindset to either be 'working for DM' or to be stupid and not worth dealing with. In my opinion, Marty is still trying to be Inp General RTC. He stated in the SP times videos that he left because he argued with DM for not wearing his hat. He believes that Miscavige failed to wear his hat in preserving the trademarks, the very trademarks he is now using, in violation of trademark law! LRH is his God. There's no changing that at this time and probably not in the foreseeable future.

I had a similar experience with him.

[Kutta]

Thanks again for that Carmel. Much of the time I also think that our family's experience and survival in the CoS gave us all a certain strength, hard to define, but which has helped in our lives. Hell, if that couldn't kill us off, there's not much we can't survive! It was reading HH's post about the family and the burglar that set me off again. I remembered my daughter's face and the hurt etched on it when I did those things. We do talk about it and have a laugh. My daughter though probably has more yet to deal with still. She took a look at the kids ESMB but couldn't hack it; couldn't sleep that night, just too awful for her to read what other kids had been through - much worse than she experienced. But both my kids, grown up now, are doing great and I'm very proud of them. They have that indefinable strength, can hold their position with a certain aplomb, and certainly appreciate freedom and know how to enjoy life.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Thanks again for that Carmel. Much of the time I also think that our family's experience and survival in the CoS gave us all a certain strength, hard to define, but which has helped in our lives. Hell, if that couldn't kill us off, there's not much we can't survive! It was reading HH's post about the family and the burglar that set me off again. I remembered my daughter's face and the hurt etched on it when I did those things. We do talk about it and have a laugh. My daughter though probably has more yet to deal with still. She took a look at the kids ESMB but couldn't hack it; couldn't sleep that night, just too awful for her to read what other kids had been through - much worse than she experienced. But both my kids, grown up now, are doing great and I'm very proud of them. They have that indefinable strength, can hold their position with a certain aplomb, and certainly appreciate freedom and know how to enjoy life.

Kutta, I hear ya! Still got kids deep "in" but salvaged my youngest who never set foot on the sacred burial ground known as the Church of Scientology.

With your permission I'd like to submit your post as a COMMENDATION REPORT to my OutEthics Folder! :happydance:

[Kutta]

WOW! cool! wicked! Never had a commendation report before! Ta very much HH. Here's to your other kids surfing right out on the first exodus tsunami!

[Voltaire's Child]

I had a similar experience with him.

How is that bad or abusive treatment?

It may be head in the sand type stuff, but saying or implying it's BAD treatement seems skewed.

Lots of people here express disagreement and even cut other people off when they don't want to talk to them anymore. How is this any different?
People DO that. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, but no one person has a corner on that particular market.