Meeting with OSA

[bluewiggirl]

Hey guys,

So, some folks might remember a couple months back I posted in the Boston thread that I was talking to Paul Bradford about maybe meeting up to talk about the whole "protesting your Org" thing. I didn't hear from him for weeks and weeks, and I figured the whole thing was going nowhere.

Then I got an email from him right after the DC Ideal Org raid. Turns out he'd forgotten to hit "send" the week before. I'm going to be sitting down with him tomorrow (I won't post the specific place or time online, no need for ambitious-but-clueless anons to show up and ruin things by trying to help). I've spoken a lot with the local anons about what they'd like to see discussed: what things they're actively protesting against and what they think might be possible on a local level. I'd love to hear from the folks here what you think should happen too. I obviously can't represent everyone in the world, but I figure if I've got a set of OSA ears available to me I should really share that resource as best I can.

I'd also love some advice from folks who were in. I know the basics: watch my back, assume that he's probably recording even if it is against the law in this state and watch what I say, and don't get my hopes up too much for anything of value to come of this. I figure if there are any ex-OSA sitting on these boards, they might have some more specific advice too.

I'll be posting EXTENSIVE postgame here, on our local boards, and up on WWP. If you don't hear back from me by Monday, you know what to do :coolwink:

[lionheart]

Don't go there alone! Preferably take someone with legal training.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Hey guys,

So, some folks might remember a couple months back I posted in the Boston thread that I was talking to Paul Bradford about maybe meeting up to talk about the whole "protesting your Org" thing. I didn't hear from him for weeks and weeks, and I figured the whole thing was going nowhere.

Then I got an email from him right after the DC Ideal Org raid. Turns out he'd forgotten to hit "send" the week before. I'm going to be sitting down with him tomorrow (I won't post the specific place or time online, no need for ambitious-but-clueless anons to show up and ruin things by trying to help). I've spoken a lot with the local anons about what they'd like to see discussed: what things they're actively protesting against and what they think might be possible on a local level. I'd love to hear from the folks here what you think should happen too. I obviously can't represent everyone in the world, but I figure if I've got a set of OSA ears available to me I should really share that resource as best I can.

I'd also love some advice from folks who were in. I know the basics: watch my back, assume that he's probably recording even if it is against the law in this state and watch what I say, and don't get my hopes up too much for anything of value to come of this. I figure if there are any ex-OSA sitting on these boards, they might have some more specific advice too.

I'll be posting EXTENSIVE postgame here, on our local boards, and up on WWP. If you don't hear back from me by Monday, you know what to do :coolwink:

I would definitely bring a friend along, not so much for protection but as a witness ... and a tape recorder.

[OHTEEATE]

Ask him to record the Marc Headley interview on Coast to Coast Saturday afternoon, and listen to the whole thing, and read the Blown for Good book, and get back to you. Mike

[I told you I was trouble]

It will be a 'PR' meeting I would imagine, he will be 'handling' you from the start to the finish, and you may as well talk to a brick wall.

Have fun though.

:p

He didn't 'forget to hit send' (unless he is complete wally) ... it always takes months to get the 'OK' to do anything from endless seniors and he will now have a little program that he will be working on.

:)

[Alanzo]

I see this as a very, very good sign.

And a HUGE change in strategy by the Church of Scientology.

You will do great, BWG. You are sharp-witted and well-respected.

Be yourself, remain open and honest, and put voice recording software on your smartphone. Ask his permission to record him and then do it.

He can do the same for you.

This meeting is no good if it just stays between the two of you. If meetings like these can continue, then I think it could be the beginning of some real change.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I see this as a very, very good sign.

And a HUGE change in strategy by the Church of Scientology.

You will do great, BWG. You are sharp-witted and well-respected.

Be yourself, remain open and honest, and put voice recording software on your smartphone. Ask his permission to record him and then do it.

He can do the same for you.

This meeting is no good if it just stays between the two of you. If meetings like these can continue, then I think it could be the beginning of some real change.

I would not ask him to record it, I would tell him that I am recording it, since everyone knows he will be recording it regardless of what he claims and if he gets the opportunity he will take any comments BWG makes out of context along with pictures of her to post on retardedfreedomwatch.org

[Zinjifar]

I see this as a very, very good sign.

And a HUGE change in strategy by the Church of Scientology.

it's not particularly new at all. They do it over and over. It'll be about 'what's your upset?' and then reams of 'can't we just get along' and the usual crap, all the while looking for info, slips, exploitable chinks.

But hey, do it. But remember, they can't possibly agree to the things that would make opposing Scientology unnecessary, so, it's purely a PR handling.

Zinj

[Zinjifar]

I would not ask him to record it, I would tell him that I am recording it, since everyone knows he will be recording it regardless of what he claims and if he gets the opportunity he will take any comments BWG makes out of context along with pictures of her to post on retardedfreedomwatch.org

I'm sure BWG would be thrilled with her own page on religiousfreedumbwatch, but, it's not gonna happen :) (not unless she can come up with some really *juicy* crimes)

Zinj

[Ted]

[...]

But remember, they can't possibly agree to the things that would make opposing Scientology unnecessary, so, it's purely a PR handling.

Zinj

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There's your bottom line.

Prepare to get schmoozed. You give up information; he gives up nothing.

[Alanzo]

it's not particularly new at all. They do it over and over. It'll be about 'what's your upset?' and then reams of 'can't we just get along' and the usual crap, all the while looking for info, slips, exploitable chinks.


Really?

You mean "parley" is not just in the Pirate's Code?

[Zinjifar]

Really?

You mean "parley" is not just in the Pirate's Code?

I've had a half-dozen 'parleys' with various OSA goons over the years. At one point OSA and Tory's husband invited a bunch of us to lunch (during the '99 30-Year Anniversary for the CC) and, no, they did *not* pick up the tab. Usually at those times it's an attempt to distract from the business of picketing and I guess they get stats for every minute people are away. But, we were going to lunch anyway :) That one was unusual because Tory's husband just quit the usual spiel and jumped right to 'We're never going to agree anyway, so why don't we just talk about something else?'

Anyway, they're always running this 'high ARC' thing and it's generally nothing to get too excited about. God knows how many times Phil Scott has been to lunch with OSA and, in his case, I tend to cringe, because you never know what's going to happen.

Naturally, it's possible that they have some special reason; like having found some nasty things BWG's 'friends' may have said about her and just drooling to 'confront' her with it. Yawn.

Zinj

[Alanzo]

I'm so disappointed.

I bet they won't call her a "skank", though.

[Mystic]

http://www.leadpipeposters.com/images/1557.jpg

[bluewiggirl]

I'm so disappointed.

I bet they won't call her a "skank", though.

LOL

I haven't gotten that one since the New Haven raid, but I still :love8: that crazy bitch for thinking she could intimidate me with that.

As far as recording, he's said he's not going to, I am going to respect that. He decides he wants to take my shit out of context, that's on him. Words on the internet don't scare me. He wants to use it against me in a legal way, he's gonna be the one who winds up in the dog house.

Thanks for the support on this, and Zinj: I know none of your meetings really went anywhere, but Tori did make it out, right? :thumbsup:

[FinallyFree]

LOL

I haven't gotten that one since the New Haven raid, but I still :love8: that crazy bitch for thinking she could intimidate me with that.

As far as recording, he's said he's not going to, I am going to respect that. He decides he wants to take my shit out of context, that's on him. Words on the internet don't scare me. He wants to use it against me in a legal way, he's gonna be the one who winds up in the dog house.

Thanks for the support on this, and Zinj: I know none of your meetings really went anywhere, but Tori did make it out, right? :thumbsup:

Yes - Tori is out for sure. Be careful Blue - while you may have good intentions, they will not. They will have scientology intentions. Please don't forget that. They are also operating on orders from someone else and will not have the authority for any real negotiations.
I agree this could be a set up. I agree you should definitely NOT go alone. An I agree this will just be another PR handling by your OSA goon.

[Megalomaniac]

Hey BWG,

I've had a few meetings like this the past year. Yeah, they feed you PR, good news, non-answers, distractions, etc. Yeah, they record you. And it seems as if they cannot take any responsibility. But do it anyways.

Here's what I've done, and I recommend it to anyone. Be straight. Tell them what your goals are, what you're willing to do to achieve them. For me, I demand, for each gross abuse, that the story either be proven false, or the damage made up. And I hold every Scientologist, to some degree, accountable, especially the OSA people. I make sure they understand they have to answer to me, not the other way around. Just lay it out to them. You could do some preparation, such as having a list of topics to discuss. But, in fact, you need no preparation. You already know enough right now to explain your viewpoint.

You may reach points in the discussion where you don't have an answer, where they feel they've "won" the argument. At such a point, you can simply ask, ok, what is their solution? If they keep doing what they are doing, the abortions will continue, families will continue to be split up, RPF members will continue to be slaves. So, they think they've proven some point, but the bottom line is, whatever they are doing, is failing to solve the problems.

They might pretend to not hear you, not get it. But they do get it. They know, deep down, that they're swimming in lies. And they respect someone who doesn't tolerate that shit and can just stand up and speak the truth. They wish they could.

[scooter]

Hey BWG,

I've had a few meetings like this the past year. Yeah, they feed you PR, good news, non-answers, distractions, etc. Yeah, they record you. And it seems as if they cannot take any responsibility. But do it anyways.

Here's what I've done, and I recommend it to anyone. Be straight. Tell them what your goals are, what you're willing to do to achieve them. For me, I demand, for each gross abuse, that the story either be proven false, or the damage made up. And I hold every Scientologist, to some degree, accountable, especially the OSA people. I make sure they understand they have to answer to me, not the other way around. Just lay it out to them. You could do some preparation, such as having a list of topics to discuss. But, in fact, you need no preparation. You already know enough right now to explain your viewpoint.

You may reach points in the discussion where you don't have an answer, where they feel they've "won" the argument. At such a point, you can simply ask, ok, what is their solution? If they keep doing what they are doing, the abortions will continue, families will continue to be split up, RPF members will continue to be slaves. So, they think they've proven some point, but the bottom line is, whatever they are doing, is failing to solve the problems.

They might pretend to not hear you, not get it. But they do get it. They know, deep down, that they're swimming in lies. And they respect someone who doesn't tolerate that shit and can just stand up and speak the truth. They wish they could.

Nice one, Mac.:thumbsup:

BWG, this is an attempted "handling" on you - you will find this guy to be your "new best friend" and he will have been practicing this for days before the event.

If you find yourself warming to him in any way, recognize that you've been had.

If you find yourself agreeing with him in any way, recognize that you've been had.

I doubt he will be there alone but you may not know who else he's brought along so I do strongly suggest you have a friend or two sit nearby and watch to see who he's "planted" near you and who is quietly taking photos etc..

Personally, I'd rather swim with hungry sharks.

[uniquemand]

BWG: take backup. I will go with you if you like.

[Div6]

My .02, fwiw:

Tell them that if they are truly interested in changing the current atmosphere of opposition and enmity, that they will have to apply LRH ethics tech, and find out who they really are as an organization. If they are a religion, they need to act like one, and knock off the human rights abuses. If they are a business, then they need to follow "The Way To Happiness" and stop doing illegal things. If they wish to remain a con, then they just need to go away.

Tell them that people (not just exe's, but regular people) are in Doubt about Scn, due to the disparity between their stated goals and their actual products and statistics. That if they want to truly be accepted, then they need to make their ACTUAL statistics known. They also need to DELIVER what they promise, or else stop making promises. Scientology is supposed to help people, and their body count is going too high for them to gloss it over any more.

They typically will try to take what you say and twist into reasons why you have a personal vendetta. I doubt they will acknowledge any wrong doing, but go ahead and give it a shot.

[FoTi]

They will be taking pictures of you.....you won't see the camera.

They will be recording you....you won't see the recording equipment.

He may say, "I won't be recording you.", but keep in mind that even if he isn't recording you, someone else nearby will be....maybe from a van or car with equipment that can pick up from a distance....somehow, some way, they will record what is said at the meeting and take pictures of you.

DON'T GO ALONE.

[Pooks]

I worked for the GO/OSA for years and specifically with Paul Bradford. Paul is a very meek, friendly, non hostile kind of guy. His major job has always been a paper pusher for the GO/OSA and just goes about getting the job done without a lot of drama.

As far as I know he's a guy probably in his late 50's and has never been married. For all the time I knew him-- 25 years-- he never even dated.
Now that I look at it, Paul is probably a very nice gay man that's had his
sexually suppressed all these years. But that's just my personal opinion.

Don't for a minute think that he's there on his own, and is going to chat. Whatever Paul is going to say to you has been been discussed at length with his seniors and his "approach" and handling of you has all be approved of all the way up to OSA Int.

Paul has been drilled on what to say and how to say it. He has "targets" or goals that he is suppose to achieve at this meeting. Even though he says he's not taping you, I'd bet the ranch that he is. He's not going to have any problem lying to you, because you are an SP.

His main purpose is to try to get you to stop protesting. He wants to bring you to an understanding of why you should do this, he may be so bold as to try to get you to use your influence on Gregg to back off.

No matter what, it should be very interesting as you are a sharp cookie and will pretty much be able to see through his bullshit and oh so nicely point out the insanity of what he is saying.

Have fun!

[Voltaire's Child]

Wot Pooks said.

I'll also add that at a handling I had to go to, they had stuff written down, like if she says this, do that. They were consulting notes every step of the way.

[bluewiggirl]

Thanks Pooks, I value your opinion on this one a lot since you know the guy.

Voltaire: he actually did mention in his email that he wanted to bring a notebook, that's probably exactly what he'll be using it for. Thank you.

[Blue Spirit]

Get a compact high quality recorder and record it, then transcribe it to ESMB.

[MostlyLurker]

Expect some of the most subtle lies to show that they are good and Anon/Ex-scientologists are bad. He'll probably show you "dead agent" materials and if you ask for a copy he won't release them to you.

My first advice is to tape everything and tell him so.

My second advice is to go with someone, possibly an ex.

[FinallyFree]

[QUOTE=Megalomaniac;328801] I make sure they understand they have to answer to me, not the other way around. Just lay it out to them. QUOTE]

I strongly agree with this point. Remember, they are going into this meeting with absolute certainty that they have the ONLY answers that will ‘save man-kind’. They will go into this meeting as an authority. And authority specifically over *YOU*. Don’t let them. They are used to getting away with this for the most part. scientologists fear them to this day.

[Axiom142]

BWG,

I think you should be very careful. It goes without saying that you should not go alone. My advice is to have several friends and never be more than a shout for help away. I’d also advise recording the conversation (openly).

Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that he is a just deluded cultist who can’t think for himself and is not dangerous. He isn’t going to ‘just talk to you’, he will try and handle you. If he can’t do that, he might try and cave you in, just as George Baillie attempted with me. Don’t get into an argument, work out what you want to say and stick to it no matter how much he might try to distract you or trick you into saying something damaging (to yourself).

Good luck, but be very careful.

Axiom142

[FinallyFree]

As far as I know he's a guy probably in his late 50's and has never been married. For all the time I knew him-- 25 years-- he never even dated.
Now that I look at it, Paul is probably a very nice gay man that's had his
sexually suppressed all these years. But that's just my personal opinion.



Hell if he is not gay what a temptation Blue would be! :drool: If he is gay, hell Blue, why don't you introduce him a nice gay man? :confused2: It couldn't hurt!

[Tim Skog]

As a former GO/OSA person, I recommend that you first get him to agree to tape the meeting for "his and your benefit."

Actually record him on the tape saying he agrees or is aware that the meeting is being taped.

And bring a witness. Let him know that the witness is there to witness only and will not be involved in the discussion.

If he protests and refuses then get up and walk away.

When you leave assume that you will be tailed.

[ULRC/S]

I also STRONGLY recommend that you tape the meeting, and listen to it afterwards.

He will be so well drilled that you may well start being moved to his point of view, but if you listen to the tape later you will hear the tricks, and the actual non-answering of your questions.

I say this from personal experience, I was almost talked around in a meeting with some SeaOrg terminals back in the 80's before the days of OSA, but was just smart enough not to sign anything in the first meeting.

When I went over the tapes later, I saw just how skillfully I'd been manipulated. Then in a second meeting, I pointed this out and INSISTED that I get my questions actually answered, which they could/wouldn't do, and they finally dropped the whole BIG FRIENDSHIP game.

Take a good intelligent no BS friend, record, and WATCH YOURSELF!

Regards, Allen

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Anyone in OSA that is willing to meet with you will be well trained in being slippery. The song that comes to mind is by Sade containing this

"No need to ask
He's a smooth operator
Smooth operator, smooth operator
Smooth operator...."

The PR tech is to give you APPARENT answers, not real answers.

You have seen Tommy Davis try it but he ain't worth a shit, he is way to obvious.

Want to see slickness watch Heber Jentzsch here http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=465948140437863388# or just google him.

It will give you a really good idea of how your questions will be sidestepped and acceptable concepts will used to cuddle up to your mind and encourage you not to attack such a lovable, uprighteous person or organization.

Good luck, not always easy going into a den of thieves.

[Lulu Belle]

They are also operating on orders from someone else and will not have the authority for any real negotiations.

That is the bottom line.

One of the "LRH datum" things that I actually agree with that's applicable here.

(Paraphrase)

If you are playing a game, play to win. If it's a game you could never win, disconnect from it completely.

(End of paraphrase)

"Negotiating" with a Class V org staff member about COS is like "negotiating" about WalMart's employment and discrimination policies with the old guy who works there who greets you at the door.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

That is the bottom line.

One of the "LRH datum" things that I actually agree with that's applicable here.

(Paraphrase)

If you are playing a game, play to win. If it's a game you could never win, disconnect from it completely.

(End of paraphrase)

"Negotiating" with a Class V org staff member about COS is like "negotiating" about WalMart's employment and discrimination policies with the old guy who works there who greets you at the door.


I don't know if I'd call that an "LRH datum" , I think I'd file that one under "Common Sense"

[nozeno]

Hey guys,

So, some folks might remember a couple months back I posted in the Boston thread that I was talking to Paul Bradford about maybe meeting up to talk about the whole "protesting your Org" thing. I didn't hear from him for weeks and weeks, and I figured the whole thing was going nowhere.

Then I got an email from him right after the DC Ideal Org raid. Turns out he'd forgotten to hit "send" the week before. I'm going to be sitting down with him tomorrow (I won't post the specific place or time online, no need for ambitious-but-clueless anons to show up and ruin things by trying to help). I've spoken a lot with the local anons about what they'd like to see discussed: what things they're actively protesting against and what they think might be possible on a local level. I'd love to hear from the folks here what you think should happen too. I obviously can't represent everyone in the world, but I figure if I've got a set of OSA ears available to me I should really share that resource as best I can.

I'd also love some advice from folks who were in. I know the basics: watch my back, assume that he's probably recording even if it is against the law in this state and watch what I say, and don't get my hopes up too much for anything of value to come of this. I figure if there are any ex-OSA sitting on these boards, they might have some more specific advice too.

I'll be posting EXTENSIVE postgame here, on our local boards, and up on WWP. If you don't hear back from me by Monday, you know what to do :coolwink:

You might consider canceling the meeting and doing something more productive, like, your laundry, the dishes and don't forget to vacuum those dust bunnies under your bed that you've been trying to ignore.

[degraded being]

If you have any sort of good feeling about it while it is happening, that means FLUNK. YOU FAILED.

Getting you to feel good or even OK about tiny details
is the way to "press your buttons". If they can press your buttons they can get what they want more easily.

They can not negitiate to anything you want. It is against policy. I don't want to be rude here, but do not let your ego tell you that you might just do something good by using your skill, intuition, knowledge, etc.

Do not see this as what you might achieve.
See the whole thing as an observation exercise.
Observe observe observe just watch them and study them in detail.

When you get home with your recording. Make a transcript.
When you see the whole dialogue on paper it is easier to see what was going on.

[FoTi]

Write down and carry with you the questions that you want answered. Ask the questions one at a time and don't quit asking one question until you get an answer. When he leads you away from the question, refer to the question being asked and repeat the question again and make him stick to answering that one question before you continue on to the next one. You control the conversation.

[tookmeawhile]

I don't see ANY upside to meeting OSA.

Perhaps they will try to get you arrested for being a terrorist threat; the head of anonymous or some crap like that.

No upside - only downside.

Please, don't go - just do something really skanky instead.

[Zinjifar]

I don't see ANY upside to meeting OSA.

:shrug: it's an experience. Done right, you can learn from an experience. Scientology being what it is a deep cynicism is appropriate for any discussions with OSA, but, at the same time there's no reason it can't be a learning experience. Just remember that there is absolutely no reason to believe anything you're told. If the person seems happy; they may be in deep grief. If they say they have a puppy, they're probably allergic. Big lies are mixed with little lies and even with truth and near-truth.

If you're not cynical to start with, you eventually will be.

Zinj

[Panda Termint]

Don't leave your fingerprints on ANY blank sheets of paper! :no:

[Mystic]

Well, the meeting is off. BWG came into chat momentarily and informed me. The OSA mofo gave no reason for calling it off.

BWG is evidently just too OT for them.

[SweetnessandLight]

Yeah, I would also say, don't eat anything, don't drink anything, don't touch anything but your own possessions that you carry in with you, don't let them touch you or your stuff at all.

Remember that in their minds you are an enemy of Scientology and fair game for being utterly destroyed in any way possible.

There will be more operatives there than are evident. Take not only several friends but more than one car for safety.

[Zinjifar]

Well, the meeting is off. BWG came into chat momentarily and informed me. The OSA mofo gave no reason for calling it off.

BWG is evidently just too OT for them.

They read ESMB :)

Zinj

[dontscamme]

Well, the meeting is off. BWG came into chat momentarily and informed me. The OSA mofo gave no reason for calling it off.

BWG is evidently just too OT for them.

Yes, I was in the chatbox when she said that. It is late on the East Coast, and she has turned in for the night.

Maybe she will post more about it here tomorrow.

[MrNobody]

Don't leave your fingerprints on ANY blank sheets of paper! :no:

I'm sure she's read Paulette Cooper's story. Adding a pair of sexy gloves to her outfit shouldn't be too hard for a woman. :D But what about the DNA remainders she leaves on her wineglass? :omg:

EDIT:

OK, I've just read what came in while I was typing. Yeah, call me slowpoke.

[Spirited]

Well, the meeting is off. BWG came into chat momentarily and informed me. The OSA mofo gave no reason for calling it off.

BWG is evidently just too OT for them.
I agree with zing, maybe someone from osa came over to the board and saw this thread

[Panda Termint]

I'm sure she's read Paulette Cooper's story. Adding a pair of sexy gloves to her outfit shouldn't be too hard for a woman. :D But what about the DNA remainders she leaves on her wineglass? :omg:
I *was* going to mention DNA but thought that BWG might think I was being a bit presumptious.
Where she chooses to leave her DNA is her business! :D

[dontscamme]

I agree with zing, maybe someone from osa came over to the board and saw this thread

Zinj can zing with the best of 'em.

[SweetnessandLight]

Hello, slowpoke! :D

Actually, I nearly simultaneously posted with Mystic, so I didn't see it either...:p

It happens, sometimes, no problem! :)

[Mystic]

They read ESMB :)

Zinj

I was thinking mucho similar. A lot of good advice went her way posted on the board here. Some of it must have hit OSA in their arses.

[Pooks]

LOL! It totally does NOT surprise me that they canceled.

I'm sure someone from OSA read this thread and a similar one on WWP and decided to put the kabosh to the whole thing.

[KnightVision]

I see this as a very, very good sign.

And a HUGE change in strategy by the Church of Scientology.

You will do great, BWG. You are sharp-witted and well-respected.

Be yourself, remain open and honest, and put voice recording software on your smartphone. Ask his permission to record him and then do it.

He can do the same for you.

This meeting is no good if it just stays between the two of you. If meetings like these can continue, then I think it could be the beginning of some real change.

Guess you forgot that they operate on a billion year contract.... If you're looking for a 'HUGH change' and a 'very, very good sign' to come out of the cult... be sure to check in... in about a billion years or so.

'Nothing is wrong with CO$ policy and actions'. EVER. That is their motto and creed. If they ever admit to ANY WRONG DOING... they will fall down even faster than they already are.

I'm afraid to say that any hopes for a reformed, humane 'Church' will only result in disappointment.

[Spirited]

Zinj can zing with the best of 'em.
OH doh!!... typo....Zinj:D

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

LOL! It totally does NOT surprise me that they canceled.

I'm sure someone from OSA read this thread and a similar one on WWP and decided to put the kabosh to the whole thing.

Yep, what is the point of meeting them with someone who is on to their game?Their intentions have always been clear and consistent ... to discredit and destroy all enemies at all costs with what ever means available... both real enemies and imaginary enemies.

Has OSA ever successfully handled a critic, without breaking the law?

You'd figure they would have realized by now that Hubbard's silly ass Tech only works on people willing to surrender their capacity of objective thought to it ... aka brainwashed Scientologists.

[Ted]

LOL! It totally does NOT surprise me that they canceled.

I'm sure someone from OSA read this thread and a similar one on WWP and decided to put the kabosh to the whole thing.


Funny.

If the OSA were being honest and straight (impossible), they would have no need or desire to cancel any meeting no matter what advices were given on how to handle the meeting.

[Good twin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqfBId5JUe0

[bluewiggirl]

As Mystie said earlier, I did in fact get an email canceling the meeting late last night. It was kind of a shock after spending so much time mentally preparing myself, but I'll live.

He said he's still willing to talk at protests, so I guess I don't get to call myself a victim of disconnection yet :)

[Ted]

As Mystie said earlier, I did in fact get an email canceling the meeting late last night. It was kind of a shock after spending so much time mentally preparing myself, but I'll live.

He said he's still willing to talk at protests, so I guess I don't get to call myself a victim of disconnection yet :)


Talk hell!

Ask him if he is willing to listen.

[Div6]

. Never mind

[lionheart]

BWG, if ever you get an offer to meet up with OSA again, please take the repeated advice given here and don't go alone!

I get the feeling you were going to go in there alone, despite this advice. Please don't make the mistake of thinking you can outwit or "handle" them. You must have a witness with you and you should only agree to meet them on the agreed basis that you will record the conversation.

Take the advice given on here by those who know.

Their only motives are to get intelligence info and to "handle" you or failing that to destroy you "utterly".

They will use slimey PR tech to try to handle you. They will lie about not recording the conversation and will afterwards analyse anything you say for info they can use against you or against other anons or ex-scns.

They will also get your fingerprints and/or DNA to frame you if necessary like they did with Paulette Cooper. They will collect this as a routine matter of course and store it for future use if necessary.

They will look for "strings" to pull in anything you say. They will afterwards investigate those threads of intelligence info to try to find something they can manipulate you with or blackmail you into silence with.

They probably already have strings lined up to pull when they have their "friendly" chat with you. The reason they wanted to talk to you was probably because they wanted to get you to tell them something they don't already know.

If you meet up with them in the future, stipulate a neutral venue like a public cafe. Don't go into their scilon hive.

Remember, no matter what pretend friendliness, their real attitude to you, as trained into them by LRH is that you are a degraded being, a wog, a criminal, a suppressive, etc. who can be "disposed of and without sorrow" - ref the book Science of Survival. Scientologists, especially GO/OSA are trained to hide this with pretend friendliness.

[Type4_PTS]

I don't see ANY upside to meeting OSA.

Perhaps they will try to get you arrested for being a terrorist threat; the head of anonymous or some crap like that.



BWG, if ever you get an offer to meet up with OSA again, please take the repeated advice given here and don't go alone!



Lots of good advice on the board here. As tookmeawhile said above, I also don't see any upside to meeting OSA, or at best very limited.
BWG, I got that it sucks that the meeting was canceled after you planned for it, but in a way, I'm glad, as I see much more negative stuff that can come out of it then anything positive that could be gained. (and was concerned about that after reading other comments on this thread).
We know that OSA has tried to position the anon's with "terrorists" and I would'nt be surprised if they would be attempting to do something that aligns with that purpose. Anonymous is a major pain in the ass for OSA, the top guys at OSA INT have probably gotten some pretty good SRA's from DM and ordered to "handle" the situation. I know Paul Bradford from when I worked in Boston, and he was a very nice guy (as Pooks pointed out) and I'm sure that he'll want it to come accross that he IS negotiating in good faith, and might be prepared to make some actual concessions to show that that is the case. But the purpose to "handle" anonymous will not have changed one iota. And I would bet the house that they are not looking at how the anon's and OSA can peacefully co-exist. Rather they probably view anonymous as the outbreak of a disease that must be irradicated by any means necessary.

[justaguy]

Didn't read the rest of the thread before I posted.

Hypothetically, I'd go in there and be very direct. Say, "this is what we want and what we're willing to concede." If they can't handle it, it'll be a short meeting. My guess is they might give you rigamarole about how they don't have authority to make concessions. Then you say "i wanna talk to someone who does".

Ah well. It's idle talk now, anyways.

[Blue Spirit]

Write down and carry with you the questions that you want answered. Ask the questions one at a time and don't quit asking one question until you get an answer. When he leads you away from the question, refer to the question being asked and repeat the question again and make him stick to answering that one question before you continue on to the next one. You control the conversation.

That is damn good advice and a real test of your TR's too ! :thumbsup:

[Panda Termint]

BWG, if ever you get an offer to meet up with OSA again, please take the repeated advice given here and don't go alone!

I get the feeling you were going to go in there alone, despite this advice. Please don't make the mistake of thinking you can outwit or "handle" them. You must have a witness with you and you should only agree to meet them on the agreed basis that you will record the conversation.

Take the advice given on here by those who know.

Their only motives are to get intelligence info and to "handle" you or failing that to destroy you "utterly".

They will use slimey PR tech to try to handle you. They will lie about not recording the conversation and will afterwards analyse anything you say for info they can use against you or against other anons or ex-scns.

They will also get your fingerprints and/or DNA to frame you if necessary like they did with Paulette Cooper. They will collect this as a routine matter of course and store it for future use if necessary.

They will look for "strings" to pull in anything you say. They will afterwards investigate those threads of intelligence info to try to find something they can manipulate you with or blackmail you into silence with.

They probably already have strings lined up to pull when they have their "friendly" chat with you. The reason they wanted to talk to you was probably because they wanted to get you to tell them something they don't already know.

If you meet up with them in the future, stipulate a neutral venue like a public cafe. Don't go into their scilon hive.

Remember, no matter what pretend friendliness, their real attitude to you, as trained into them by LRH is that you are a degraded being, a wog, a criminal, a suppressive, etc. who can be "disposed of and without sorrow" - ref the book Science of Survival. Scientologists, especially GO/OSA are trained to hide this with pretend friendliness.
^^^ This summation is right on the money! Great post. ^^^

[Mick Wenlock]

I have always been loudly opposed to any meeting. Most crticis, especially those who have not had much experience with Scientology - have a very naive view of what is going to happen.

There is NOTHING to be gained from meeting with OSA.

They are not going to any meeting to listen to you or what you have to say.

The purpose of the meeting for OSA and for any "true believer" is to get you to sit down and shut the fuck up.

They will be nice if it looks like that will get the job done. they will offer tours, they will offer documents, they will offer to help clear up YOUR misunderstandings. They will do all of this if it looks like that will work.

if it does not, they will ratchet up the threats. Rest assured they wil record the meeting, it will be transcribed, it will be parsed and it wil eb taken apart for everything they can glean from it.

They will be trying to find the things that upset you, the things you react to.

By going to such a meeting you are doing one thing only - giving the cofs more ammunition to shoot at you.

Do not go, you are trying to communicate with weasels.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Oh.. They cancelled!? - Nervous chickens are they?

However.. I must agree with Mick on this.

:yes:

[Lulu Belle]

That is damn good advice and a real test of your TR's too ! :thumbsup:

The only problem is, being a minion, most of the questions...

...he honestly won't know and won't know how to answer.

Like a Class V org staff member is going to know about people being beat up at Int?

Or what's really on OT VIII?

Or everything else that's really gone on?

pleeeez....

Even the best TRs are going to get not much else besides a deer in the headlights look.

Because the poor guy honestly doesn't know.

[Lulu Belle]

I have always been loudly opposed to any meeting. Most crticis, especially those who have not had much experience with Scientology - have a very naive view of what is going to happen.

There is NOTHING to be gained from meeting with OSA.

They are not going to any meeting to listen to you or what you have to say.

The purpose of the meeting for OSA and for any "true believer" is to get you to sit down and shut the fuck up.

They will be nice if it looks like that will get the job done. they will offer tours, they will offer documents, they will offer to help clear up YOUR misunderstandings. They will do all of this if it looks like that will work.

If it does not, they will ratchet up the threats. Rest assured they will record the meeting, it will be transcribed, it will be parsed and it will betaken apart for everything they can glean from it.

They will be trying to find the things that upset you, the things you react to.

By going to such a meeting you are doing one thing only - giving the cofs more ammunition to shoot at you.

Do not go, you are trying to communicate with weasels.

:goodposting:

If you have never been a member, it's hard to really understand this stuff.

Take it from those of us who lived and breathed it for years.

No matter how smart you are, how RIGHT you are, how skilled you are, you will never quite be able to comprehend what you are really facing here.

No one has any intention of listening to anything - and I mean ANYTHING - you have to say.

You are an SP, and you must be stopped.

Period.

There is no "listening" WHATSOEVER that goes on in these things.

They probably pulled this poor guy out of this because, being a basically good guy, they were afraid there was a slight chance he MIGHT actually listen.

And that will never ever ever EVER be allowed to happen.

[AnonyMary]

I am with you both on this. OSA is an enemy of anyone publicly against scientology because it is their job to get rid of the church's 'perceived' enemies and a protester is on that list. It's a no-win situation for an inexperienced former member and even more so for a non-scientologist.
Why put yourself in harms way, only to lose?

re: Mick's post
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=329545#post329545
and Lulu's


:goodposting:

If you have never been a member, it's hard to really understand this stuff.

Take it from those of us who lived and breathed it for years.

No matter how smart you are, how RIGHT you are, how skilled you are, you will never quite be able to comprehend what you are really facing here.

No one has any intention of listening to anything - and I mean ANYTHING - you have to say.

You are an SP, and you must be stopped.

Period.

There is no "listening" WHATSOEVER that goes on in these things.

They probably pulled this poor guy out of this because, being a basically good guy, they were afraid there was a slight chance he MIGHT actually listen.

And that will never ever ever EVER be allowed to happen.

[Dulloldfart]

They probably pulled this poor guy out of this because, being a basically good guy, they were afraid there was a slight chance he MIGHT actually listen.


Ah, but that's the game, isn't it? People inside do sometimes throw in the towel and leave. Many of us here did. Rathbun did. Rinder did. People inside have doubts to varying degrees — it's a gradient scale, from total blindness to the final straw and they're outta there.

I tend to agree with Mick and Lulu and others. Unless you've been inside the beast for years it is very hard to fully get the mindset someone "meeting with OSA for a chat" will come up against. That video of Ax and George Baillie gives a glimpse, the difference being that George Baillie didn't have a slick PR veneer on top of it and couldn't keep his contempt from showing.

It's a very risky game and the odds are heavily stacked against it, but if you like to live dangerously. . . .

Paul

[altruistichedonist]

So OSA cancelled. Potentially they could have had a different reason.

I think Zinj hit the nail on the head. They are reading ESMB. Completely. They are probably looking for members on ESMB that they would like to turn back into allies against the movement to end the "reign of terror" that the COS was and still is.

Hey OSA. I know you're going to look at this.

Do you REALLY want Scientology to rule the world ?

[bluewiggirl]

Before folks get super tinfoily, remember that this was also posted on WWP and on the local Boston anonymous board, and the latter of those we have solid proof that OSA does read (printouts showed up in someone's C&D).

I really appreciate all the support and advice, maybe someday it will come in handy for me or someone else.

[HCObringOrder?]

Before folks get super tinfoily, remember that this was also posted on WWP and on the local Boston anonymous board, and the latter of those we have solid proof that OSA does read (printouts showed up in someone's C&D).

I really appreciate all the support and advice, maybe someday it will come in handy for me or someone else.

Naaa.
He just had the hots for you and thought he could pull the wool over his senior's eyes for once. :blush:
But you had to go and spread the Date all over the internet like a skank and his senior got wise! :omg:
He will be talking to you when he finishes his conditions formula.
Or maybe not. :nervous:

Keep cruise-in BWG! :happydance:
You Go Girl! :yes:

[Zinjifar]

There's nothing tin-foily about thinking that OSA reads here. OSA *does* read here; every post. And takes notes. And posts too :)

Big whup.

Zinj

[bluewiggirl]

I wasn't trying to imply that it's tinfoily to think that OSA's here, just that there's more than one way OSA could have heard about this online and plenty of other reasons he might have had to cancel. I'm just glad he's okay and I can still speak with him next weekend at the raid.

[Ted]

I wasn't trying to imply that it's tinfoily to think that OSA's here, just that there's more than one way OSA could have heard about this online and plenty of other reasons he might have had to cancel. I'm just glad he's okay and I can still speak with him next weekend at the raid.


Let him know that your senior was disappointed in the no-show. :roflmao:

[FinallyFree]

:goodposting:

If you have never been a member, it's hard to really understand this stuff.

Take it from those of us who lived and breathed it for years.

No matter how smart you are, how RIGHT you are, how skilled you are, you will never quite be able to comprehend what you are really facing here.

No one has any intention of listening to anything - and I mean ANYTHING - you have to say.

You are an SP, and you must be stopped.

Period.

There is no "listening" WHATSOEVER that goes on in these things.

They probably pulled this poor guy out of this because, being a basically good guy, they were afraid there was a slight chance he MIGHT actually listen.

And that will never ever ever EVER be allowed to happen.

Well, actually (and on a little bit of a ligther note here), I have read posts by BFG that OSA 'representatives' were sent to him. Sent to "handle" him. And that everyone of them had blown after they spoke with Marc. If I remember correctly it took a couple of times for them to realize that it only took one conversation with Marc for them to blow.

[Good twin]

I wasn't trying to imply that it's tinfoily to think that OSA's here, just that there's more than one way OSA could have heard about this online and plenty of other reasons he might have had to cancel. I'm just glad he's okay and I can still speak with him next weekend at the raid.

She's glad he's okay? :omg:
1811

[Tim Skog]

BWG, the next time you do see him, let him know that you have a lot of ex-GO/OSA friends on ESMB and you hope he will become one also. :coolwink:

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Well, actually (and on a little bit of a ligther note here), I have read posts by BFG that OSA 'representatives' were sent to him. Sent to "handle" him. And that everyone of them had blown after they spoke with Marc. If I remember correctly it took a couple of times for them to realize that it only took one conversation with Marc for them to blow.hehe.. yeah.. there's that! - I'm not surprized that Marc can do that... (I'm halfway through the book.. ROFLMAO'ing along the way.. Blowdrills turning into no-drills as the staffers blow the hell outta there.. Shelly Miscavige the unawares 'soft-pron' star of the show.. Priceless!)

:yes:

[HCObringOrder?]

Let him know that your senior was disappointed in the no-show. :roflmao:

And your Lulz stats are up!!

[Nurse Pinch]

Let him know that your senior was disappointed in the no-show. :roflmao:

Yeah, I hear Big Pharma will pay a bonus for an interview with OSA :duh:

Pinchy.

[Terril park]

Yeah, I hear Big Pharma will pay a bonus for an interview with OSA :duh:

Pinchy.

They are fucking slow in paying!

Its a few years now! They are slow on protest payments also.
Still waiting.

You think OSA may have their knickers in a twist?

[Enthetan]

When you leave assume that you will be tailed.

And if you are going there by car, assume they may try to plant a bugging/tracking device on your car while you are inside. Go there by cab, and have a trusted friend pick you up afterwards.

[bluewiggirl]

I'm in Boston, we have excellent public transit :)

[elwood]

I truly do not understand what anyone could expect to gain from a meeting between a Scilon and an anonymous person. There is nothing to negotiate. There are no concessions that could be made by either side and neither party would have had the authority to make any concessions on behalf of their side. It was potentially a monumental waste of time for both sides.

I also agree with those who said nothing good could come of it. If the Scilons don't think they can win, they won't play.

[uniquemand]

I also wondered about this. Perhaps LOCALLY, scientologists could be encouraged to disaffect, through such a meeting. However, organizationally, policy will not be changed, and in fact, it was most likely an OP by OSA the whole way through, gathering information on those who attended, figuring out whatever they could about intentions and personnel. I admire BWG for having the spunk to face them, and I HOPE that she made an impact on the local scientologists who would attend, but I don't see it having a systemic impact.

[byte301]

Well it'll make for a good protest sign anyway.

OSA is afraid of little old me!

BWG I'm sure you can come up with something much better. :D

And when you do I want to see some pix!