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Gadfly
28th December 2009, 09:01 PM
I always enjoyed Hubbard's writings on postulates and considerations, and how they relate to creation and ones personal experiences of reality.

But, I especially like how Goethe says it:

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans:

That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one that never would otherwise have occurred.

A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamt would have come his way.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."

This involves basic ideas of visualization, practical magick and various occult "creative" techniques. I used to show this to various Scientologists, back when I was involved, and almost one for one, the person would really like it, adding. "I never saw that by LRH". When I told them it wasn't by LRH, they would often get uncomfortable. Sad, that the Churchies so often develop an inner restriction to viewing and accepting anything other than Hubbard as "valid". THAT attitude is nurtured in members, due to KSW indoctrination. In fact, there is SO MUCH great stuff out there, yet the usual Churchie is cut off from much of it due to the attitude bred in them by repetitive contact with basic Scientology KSW beliefs.

Oh, yeah, and I can remember Churchies expressing the idea that ANYTHING that might work and be valid, which wasn't by LRH, MUST actually be some "version of Scientology data in a different form". In other words, to them, as they saw it based upon their fixed ideas, whatever truth might exist in the above quote MUST actually be a form of LRH's true data on life and all that is! Such pompousness and presumptuousness! I would be laughing inside observing such nonsense in Church members. It wasn't uncommon.

As I recall, Hubbard actually ASSERTS this in a policy or two, saying that whatever does "work" ONLY works, because of actual Scientology truth and data! I can't remember the exact reference(s). Does anyone else recall these? Most of my books have been in storage for quite awhile, and I am just too disinterested and lazy to try to dig this up.

TalleyWhacker
28th December 2009, 09:23 PM
I agree.
I've been having a ball reading all sorts of things. Some good, some BS.
But I never did NOT read something because it wasn't LRH, I just figured that if I was going to take the time out to read something, it might as well be LRH.
What with raising kids, supporting this, supporting that, being on course, answering infinite phone calls etc.
Who the F-ck had the time to just read for the simple pleasure of it???

I guess that was the main thing--just having a few quiet moments to sit and read.

How refreshing!

Gadfly
28th December 2009, 09:32 PM
I agree.
I've been having a ball reading all sorts of things. Some good, some BS.
But I never did NOT read something because it wasn't LRH, I just figured that if I was going to take the time out to read something, it might as well be LRH.
What with raising kids, supporting this, supporting that, being on course, answering infinite phone calls etc.
Who the F-ck had the time to just read for the simple pleasure of it???

I guess that was the main thing--just having a few quiet moments to sit and read.

How refreshing!

I was a chronic reader for many years. I remember being on a Sea Org post in Canada for a while, and sitting on my bed reading these titles:

A Treatise On White Magic by Alice Bailey (Theosophist)
Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual by Eliphas Levi (early occultist)
The Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie (cohort of Aleister Crowley)

I ALWAYS found time to read, even when on Sea Org posts. Nothing could stop me. Not the KRs on my interest in "other practices", or Sec Check results. I always took the view, "I can do what I want. My stats are UP!" "Go screw yourself". It worked. And, if my stats were down, I would give them the line that as an OT, and as a free thetan, that I am willng and able to LOOK AT ANYTHING, and make up my own mind, just as LRH says I should (I would give them the reference). THAT would then shut them up. I always stood my ground on my own freedom to look at whatever I chose. It helped to be fortified with appropriate LRH references to back up my viewpoint and stance. They couldn't very well dispute LRH references!!!

Rmack
29th December 2009, 06:07 AM
I was a chronic reader for many years. I remember being on a Sea Org post in Canada for a while, and sitting on my bed reading these titles:

A Treatise On White Magic by Alice Bailey (Theosophist)
Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual by Eliphas Levi (early occultist)
The Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie (cohort of Aleister Crowley)

I ALWAYS found time to read, even when on Sea Org posts. Nothing could stop me. Not the KRs on my interest in "other practices", or Sec Check results. I always took the view, "I can do what I want. My stats are UP!" "Go screw yourself". It worked. And, if my stats were down, I would give them the line that as an OT, and as a free thetan, that I am willng and able to LOOK AT ANYTHING, and make up my own mind, just as LRH says I should (I would give them the reference). THAT would then shut them up. I always stood my ground on my own freedom to look at whatever I chose. It helped to be fortified with appropriate LRH references to back up my viewpoint and stance. They couldn't very well dispute LRH references!!!

Where and when was your involvement with the cult, Gadfly? The S.laves O.rg? I just wondered if I ever gave you an exam. I was the examiner at ASHO day from late 1979 to 1980 before I just up and left. I won't say blow, they can blow me.

Leon
29th December 2009, 06:44 AM
I always enjoyed Hubbard's writings on postulates and considerations, and how they relate to creation and ones personal experiences of reality.

But, I especially like how Goethe says it:

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans:

That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one that never would otherwise have occurred.

A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamt would have come his way.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."

This involves basic ideas of visualization, practical magick and various occult "creative" techniques. I used to show this to various Scientologists, back when I was involved, and almost one for one, the person would really like it, adding. "I never saw that by LRH". When I told them it wasn't by LRH, they would often get uncomfortable. Sad, that the Churchies so often develop an inner restriction to viewing and accepting anything other than Hubbard as "valid". THAT attitude is nurtured in members, due to KSW indoctrination. In fact, there is SO MUCH great stuff out there, yet the usual Churchie is cut off from much of it due to the attitude bred in them by repetitive contact with basic Scientology KSW beliefs.

Oh, yeah, and I can remember Churchies expressing the idea that ANYTHING that might work and be valid, which wasn't by LRH, MUST actually be some "version of Scientology data in a different form". In other words, to them, as they saw it based upon their fixed ideas, whatever truth might exist in the above quote MUST actually be a form of LRH's true data on life and all that is! Such pompousness and presumptuousness! I would be laughing inside observing such nonsense in Church members. It wasn't uncommon.



Good one, Gaddy. Goethe knew his stuff, that's for sure. I've seen poems of his (albeit in translation) and every now and then I'd get an insight from him that so exactly encapsulates and surpasses some point in Scio that my jaw would just drop and I'd stare at it, speechless. A Scio frend of mine went and studied German for the one single reason so that she could read Goethe in the original.

hbeer
29th December 2009, 08:32 AM
I always enjoyed Hubbard's writings on postulates and considerations, and how they relate to creation and ones personal experiences of reality.

But, I especially like how Goethe says it:

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans:

That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one that never would otherwise have occurred.

A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamt would have come his way.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."

This involves basic ideas of visualization, practical magick and various occult "creative" techniques. I used to show this to various Scientologists, back when I was involved, and almost one for one, the person would really like it, adding. "I never saw that by LRH". When I told them it wasn't by LRH, they would often get uncomfortable. Sad, that the Churchies so often develop an inner restriction to viewing and accepting anything other than Hubbard as "valid". THAT attitude is nurtured in members, due to KSW indoctrination. In fact, there is SO MUCH great stuff out there, yet the usual Churchie is cut off from much of it due to the attitude bred in them by repetitive contact with basic Scientology KSW beliefs.

Oh, yeah, and I can remember Churchies expressing the idea that ANYTHING that might work and be valid, which wasn't by LRH, MUST actually be some "version of Scientology data in a different form". In other words, to them, as they saw it based upon their fixed ideas, whatever truth might exist in the above quote MUST actually be a form of LRH's true data on life and all that is! Such pompousness and presumptuousness! I would be laughing inside observing such nonsense in Church members. It wasn't uncommon.



I wish it could be done just like that.

I tried it for a while and then found that I was 1. surrounded by open cycles and 2. burning out physically and emotionally - create, create, create, and never balance the flow.

Then, oh wonder! I realized what many people with advanced spiritual awareness have realized before me: that time is not linear, and I don't have to do everything at once!

Now I am looking at my open cycles again and see that I have done too many and none of them is in really good shape. Lots of more work to do on each of them... but with time not being linear, I suddenly have an infinity of it...



.

Panda Termint
29th December 2009, 12:47 PM
I told this story to a friend recently, she suggested that (some) ESMBers might enjoy it.
It is a true story.

A Christmas Story


Long before I ever did OT Levels I used to thoroughly enjoy a form of Spacation as a meditative practice.
I’d just place/adopt anchor points on distant objects or points and get the idea of permeating all the space encompassed by these points.

One Christmas, I was driving from Sydney to Melbourne to be with my extended family for Christmas Day.

It was about 6.00 in the morning and I’d been driving for about 6 hours. As the sun was coming up I had a huge vista of Australian countryside stretching out before me. I thought to myself, “I can be responsible for all this space.”

I drove the car and was simultaneously enjoying the sensation of “watching” my body in the car travel through all this space.
My wife was dozing peacefully in the passenger seat.

We’d just passed through a major town about 10 miles (16 kms) back when I distinctly “heard” a loud voice say, “Come back!”
I asked my sleepy wife, “What did you say?” and she said, “I didn’t say anything!”
I heard the same voice again, more urgently, “Come back!”
Startled, I asked, “Did you hear that?”
“Hear what?” she said.

I ‘d traveled about a further 5 miles by this time but started to slow down.
My first thought was that I must be over-tired from the driving and should probably take a break.
I was just about to pull over when I heard the same voice, full of grief and begging, “Please, I need to get home!”
I stopped the car. I told my wife that something was VERY wrong and I needed to go back the way we’d come.
She saw how concerned I was and agreed.

I did a U-turn and drove slowly back towards the last town we’d passed through, as I neared the spot where I’d
first “heard” the voice I felt a flow of relief and gratitude and got the idea of “Here!”
I pulled over and got out of the car.

All I could see at first was a lot of bush, a deep ravine with a swampy, reed cluttered wetland swamp and an old abandoned car.
I climbed down the ravine to take a closer look. It wasn’t an old, abandoned car; it was an upside down, newly wrecked car.
As I waded closer I could see that the dashboard and seats were covered in blood.
I saw a bloody trail leading off into the reeds. I followed it, deeper into the ravine.
About a hundred feet from the car I found what I thought was a dead man; a body, covered in blood and badly busted up.
I knelt down in the water and saw that he was still breathing but was unconscious, I reached for his hand and heard the voice again, “Thank you!”

I wadded up my shirt to staunch the bleeding and spoke aloud to the unconscious man, “Stay here with your body and keep it alive, I’ll go and get help.”
I clambered back up onto the road and told my wife what had happened and asked her to flag down the next car and get them to drive into town and get an ambulance quickly (this happened before we all carried cell phones everywhere we went).
I grabbed a quilt from the car and climbed back down to the guy. He was still unconscious and I didn’t want to move him so I just covered him with the quilt and sat down in the water and told him my name and how I happened to be driving by at 6.00am on Christmas Day. I assured him that he’d be OK and that help was on its way. His breathing improved.

It seemed like I sat there talking to him for hours until an old dude appeared and said the ambulance will be here soon. He stood there asking what had happened but I really couldn’t tell him anything about the accident. We looked around at the scene and realized that the guy had probably missed the curve in the road and just gone airborne into the ravine and landed upside down in the swamp. It was a miracle he was still alive.

The police arrived, followed by the ambulance. They all asked me the same questions but I didn’t have any idea about what I could tell them, the cops looked at me suspiciously when I said I just had a feeling something was wrong. My wife came to the rescue saying we’d pulled over for a break and I’d looked down the ravine and seen the car.

The Ambos patched the guy up as best they could and splinted all his limbs; he had compound fractures in both arm and legs. He remained unconscious whilst we manhandled the stretcher back up the ravine. The Police took my license and contact details and my story and thanked me in the acceptable country manner, “Lucky for him you’re such a curious bastard”. They had his wallet and told me his name.

As I was loading my soggy, blood covered quilt into the car the guy finally regained consciousness.
The Ambo called me over saying, “He wants to talk to you”.
I walked over to the back of the ambulance.
“Thanks xxxx, I’m sorry for all the trouble, I just had to get home to see my kids for Christmas!”
(I don’t know whether he remembered my name from when I was talking to his unconscious body or if the Ambos had told him my name.)

I drove very carefully the rest of the way to Melbourne and even in my wet bloody clothes I felt as light as a feather and blessed by what had occurred.

The guy’s wife phoned my mother’s house the next day to thank me and tell me that he was in Intensive Care but would be OK.

She said I’d given her and their kids the best Christmas present they were ever likely to get. I didn’t tell her this whole story.

Many years later I told this story to a Fully Paid Up, Registered Skeptic. He gave me an “explanation” that included references to driver-fatigue, the hypnotic effects of white lines on highways, an over-active imagination, unconscious perception of the passing scenery and how I’d possibly “unconsciously noticed” the abandoned car 100 feet below the road level even though I was speeding down the highway etc.
I thanked him for his ideas.

I also told it to a Catholic Nun from Kiribati who talked about God guiding me to do Angel’s work.
I thanked her for her kind words.

None of these explanations are true for me. I’m not even sure, in re-telling it, what (if anything) it really “proves”.
There were two other living witnesses to these events; my wife who only knew what I said happened and then what occurred at the accident site and the guy who later couldn’t remember anything from the time he was driving along the road until the time he woke up after surgery.

There is one thing I do know, though; I’ve never doubted the spiritual nature of man since that morning.

pollywannacracker
29th December 2009, 12:55 PM
I was a chronic reader for many years. I remember being on a Sea Org post in Canada for a while, and sitting on my bed reading these titles:

A Treatise On White Magic by Alice Bailey (Theosophist)
Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual by Eliphas Levi (early occultist)
The Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie (cohort of Aleister Crowley)

I ALWAYS found time to read, even when on Sea Org posts. Nothing could stop me. Not the KRs on my interest in "other practices", or Sec Check results. I always took the view, "I can do what I want. My stats are UP!" "Go screw yourself". It worked. And, if my stats were down, I would give them the line that as an OT, and as a free thetan, that I am willng and able to LOOK AT ANYTHING, and make up my own mind, just as LRH says I should (I would give them the reference). THAT would then shut them up. I always stood my ground on my own freedom to look at whatever I chose. It helped to be fortified with appropriate LRH references to back up my viewpoint and stance. They couldn't very well dispute LRH references!!!

Good for you Gadfly! Having the determinism to make it go right for you! Now thatis part of total freedom.

-PWC

pollywannacracker
29th December 2009, 01:02 PM
I told this story to a friend recently, she suggested that (some) ESMBers might enjoy it.
It is a true story.

A Christmas Story


Long before I ever did OT Levels I used to thoroughly enjoy a form of Spacation as a meditative practice.
I’d just place/adopt anchor points on distant objects or points and get the idea of permeating all the space encompassed by these points.

One Christmas, I was driving to from Sydney to Melbourne to be with my extended family for Christmas Day.

It was about 6.00 in the morning and I’d been driving for about 6 hours. As the sun was coming up I had a huge vista of Australian countryside stretching out before me. I thought to myself, “I can be responsible for all this space.”

I drove the car and was simultaneously enjoying the sensation of “watching” my body in the car travel through all this space.
My wife was dozing peacefully in the passenger seat.

We’d just passed through a major town about 10 miles (16 kms) back when I distinctly “heard” a loud voice say, “Come back!”
I asked my sleepy wife, “What did you say?” and she said, “I didn’t say anything!”
I heard the same voice again, more urgently, “Come back!”
Startled, I asked, “Did you hear that?”
“Hear what?” she said.

I ‘d traveled about a further 5 miles by this time but started to slow down.
My first thought was that I must be over-tired from the driving and should probably take a break.
I was just about to pull over when I heard the same voice, full of grief and begging, “Please, I need to get home!”
I stopped the car. I told my wife that something was VERY wrong and I needed to go back the way we’d come.
She saw how concerned I was and agreed.

I did a U-turn and drove slowly back the towards the last town we’d passed through, as I neared the spot where I’d
first “heard” the voice I felt a flow of relief and gratitude and got the idea of “Here!”
I pulled over and got out of the car.

All I could see at first was a lot of bush, a deep ravine with a swampy, reed cluttered wetland swamp and an old abandoned car.
I climbed down the ravine to take a closer look. It wasn’t an old, abandoned car; it was an upside down, newly wrecked car.
As I waded closer I could see that it the dashboard and seats were covered in blood.
I saw a bloody trail leading off into the reeds. I followed it, deeper into the ravine.
About a hundred feet from the car I found what I thought was a dead man; a body, covered in blood and badly busted up.
I kneeled down in the water and saw that he was still breathing but was unconscious, I reached for his hand and heard the voice again, “Thank you!”

I wadded up my shirt to staunch the bleeding and spoke aloud to the unconscious man, “Stay here with your body and keep it alive, I’ll go and get help.”
I clambered back up onto the road and told my wife what had happened and asked her to flag down the next car and get them to drive into town and get an ambulance quickly (this happened before we all carried cell phones everywhere we went).
I grabbed a quilt from the car and climbed back down to the guy. He was still unconscious and I didn’t want to move him so I just covered him with the quilt and sat down in the water and told him my name and how I happened to be driving by at 6.00am on Christmas Day. I assured him that he’d be OK and that help was on its way. His breathing improved.

It seemed like I sat there talking to him for hours until an old dude appeared and said the ambulance will be here soon. He stood there asking what had happened but I really couldn’t tell him anything about the accident. We looked around at the scene and realized that the guy had probably missed the curve in the road and just gone airborne into the ravine and landed upside down in the swamp. It was a miracle he was still alive.

The police arrived, followed by the ambulance. They all asked me the same questions but I didn’t have any idea about what I could tell them, the cops looked at me suspiciously when I said I just had a feeling something was wrong. My wife came to the rescue saying we’d pulled over for a break and I’d looked down the ravine and seen the car.

The Ambos patched the guy up as best they could and splinted all his limbs; he had compound fractures in both arm and legs. He remained unconscious whilst we manhandled the stretcher back up the ravine. The Police took my license and contact details and my story and thanked me in the acceptable country manner, “Lucky for him you’re such a curious bastard”. They had his wallet and told me his name.

As I was loading my soggy, blood covered quilt into the car the guy finally regained consciousness.
The Ambo called me over saying, “He wants to talk to you”.
I walked over to the back of the ambulance.
“Thanks xxxx, I’m sorry for all the trouble, I just had to get home to see my kids for Christmas!”
(I don’t know whether he remembered my name from when I was talking to his unconscious body or if the Ambos had told him my name.)

I drove very carefully the rest of the way to Melbourne and even in my wet bloody clothes I felt as light as a feather and blessed by what had occurred.

The guy’s wife phoned my mother’s house the next day to thank me and tell me that he was in Intensive Care but would be OK.

She said I’d given her and their kids the best Christmas present they were ever likely to get. I didn’t tell her this whole story.

Many years later I told this story to a Fully Paid Up, Registered Skeptic. He gave me an “explanation” that included references to driver-fatigue, the hypnotic effects of white lines on highways, an over-active imagination, unconscious perception of the passing scenery and how I’d possibly “unconsciously noticed” the abandoned car 100 feet below the road level even though I was speeding down the highway etc.
I thanked him for his ideas.

I also told it to a Catholic Nun from Kiribati who talked about God guiding me to do Angel’s work.
I thanked her for her kind words.

None of these explanations are true for me. I’m not even sure, in re-telling it, what (if anything) it really “proves”.
There were two other living witnesses to these events; my wife who only knew what I said happened and then what occurred at the accident site and the guy who later couldn’t remember anything from the time he was driving along the road until the time he woke up after surgery.

There is one thing I do know, though; I’ve never doubted the spiritual nature of man since that morning.

What an awesome story Pandit! It gave me chills to read through what you had experienced. I think it happens more than we know or are aware of since there is always an "explanation" for it.

-PWC

RogerB
29th December 2009, 02:19 PM
I told this story to a friend recently, she suggested that (some) ESMBers might enjoy it.
It is a true story.

A Christmas Story


Good one, Panda!

Yes, we do have amazing and special faculties . . . but what I got from the story was just how basically decent and good mankind is.

Thank you.

A lesser Being might have ignored the call for help and not been "bothered" to go back. And most ordinary Beings would not have perceived anything at all to respond to.

You showed both the ability and the quality to do so. :clap::clap:

RogerB

Gadfly
29th December 2009, 02:33 PM
I told this story to a friend recently, she suggested that (some) ESMBers might enjoy it.
It is a true story.

A Christmas Story


Long before I ever did OT Levels I used to thoroughly enjoy a form of Spacation as a meditative practice.
I’d just place/adopt anchor points on distant objects or points and get the idea of permeating all the space encompassed by these points.

One Christmas, I was driving from Sydney to Melbourne to be with my extended family for Christmas Day.

(SNIP]

There is one thing I do know, though; I’ve never doubted the spiritual nature of man since that morning.

Very very cool! :thumbsup:

Explanations are not necessary. It happened. You experienced it.

I truly have the opinion that MUCH more is going on that anyone realizes.

I have always had a bias towards a "spiritual" understanding of reality. Ever since I was very young, I always felt that "there is more, MUCH more than meets the eye". It was THAT slant on things that got me interested in all things occult and eastern, and also Scientology. Throughout a lifetime of experiences and study, I very much still have that same opinion.

Gadfly
29th December 2009, 03:18 PM
Where and when was your involvement with the cult, Gadfly? The S.laves O.rg? I just wondered if I ever gave you an exam. I was the examiner at ASHO day from late 1979 to 1980 before I just up and left. I won't say blow, they can blow me.

I was involved from the early 1970s until about the turn of the century. Sea Org staff 3-4 years out of all of that. Primarily a "public" person, since I HATED the Sea Org as a way of life, and routed out a few times. I was never in LA.

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the story, Panda. Good call.

Paul

hbeer
29th December 2009, 07:37 PM
I told this story to a friend recently, she suggested that (some) ESMBers might enjoy it.
It is a true story.





A most incredible and touching story. I love it!



.

Voltaire's Child
29th December 2009, 08:12 PM
Another wonderful post by Gadfly!

Woggin' out
29th December 2009, 10:40 PM
Excellent story Panda! This certainly begs the question "What is the true nature of Reality?". I can see how those answers offered to you by the nun etc., would be rejected.

Gadfly
29th December 2009, 11:20 PM
Excellent story Panda! This certainly begs the question "What is the true nature of Reality?". I can see how those answers offered to you by the nun etc., would be rejected.

Interestingly, what is perceived as "reality" seems to have as much to do with the OBSERVER as with what is being OBSERVED. Take the notion of Einstein's relativity theory, where all perception of reality is RELATIVE, where the position and state of the observer directly affects what is perceived as "real". Following Einstein's views, there is NO objective or absolute anything. That's why the theories include the term "relative". The subjective perception of reality depends entirely on the state of the observer (motion; velocity and acceleration in the case of Einstein's theories). Apply THAT notion to human consciousness. The STATE of the observer (his or her entire set of considerations, postulates and agreements, going all the way back to whenever) determines WHAT is perceived and HOW it is perceived. The OBSERVER and the OBSERVED are inextricably entwined, and cannot ever be separated. THAT is closer to an accurate statement of the "true nature of reality". It changes. It is fluid. It isn't fixed. Yin and Yang, where BOTH are part of the puzzle, with neither taking higher importance. People who are somewhat hypnotized by the "physical" aspect of the universe often have a very hard time accepting or thinking with that idea. Simply, they are blind to it, based of their own set of considerations, postulates and agreements about all that is - these being largely unknown and unexamined to their conscious awareness. In other words, the agreements that hold reality "in place" for you are unconscious or subconscious. Most versions of magick and the occult use techniques to allow new and different postulates and agreements to sink into the subconscious, so that a new and different reality unfolds for you. Once you agree, on a SUBCONSCIOUS level, then reality changes accordingly for you. From the view of many such theories, conscious awareness is only the TIP of the iceberg. The REAL meat and potatoes that holds reality in place for you involves the HUGE and IMMENSE realm of the subconscious. What you accept and adopt as true at the level of the subconscious determines all that is for you - according to many New Age, magical and occult explanations of things.

There is no exact, correct explanation, separate from the viewpoints LOOKING at the answer. The most basic true explanation would involve the notion that what is happening has much more to do with WHAT YOU believe and AGREE WITH, than with any "inherent reality out there separate from you". But, it is important to pay attention to this: The deeply held convictions, of which there are MANY, having to do with the nature of basic reality on MANY levels, cannot be currently changed at will by you. They are hidden from you, largely by your own choice apparently. You are not aware of your own participation in their making or persistence, and you cannot freely just up and have them be something else.

And of course, there ARE many stupid, incomplete and superficial answers to that question. Probably MOST are of that nature.

I always thought that a "true Bridge" would involve as-ising ALL considerations, postulates and agreements made since one first involved oneself with "here". If one did THAT, then you could actually gain a pure state of "self-awareness" with nothing else anywhere to be perceived or able to be perceived. In effect, you would have "checked out". Apparently, as I currently understand it, the highest truth is that any reality is an illusion, held in place for you solely BY YOU. The details of that reality solely depend on your own hidden, unchangeable, held-with-deep-conviction postulates, agreements and considerations about all that is. YOU, as a "static", as the invisible source of it all, capable of mocking up realities through considerations and agreements, and capable of bringing about a state of consciousness, are the HIGHEST TRUTH. All else follows from THAT. And reality, from that view, can be anything.

That notion is hinted at in various eastern and occult philosophies, but good 'ole Hubby Dub, from where I am looking, stated it all far better than anyone at anytime ever before him. How can that be possible? That such a lunatic and megalomaniac could delineate the nature of reality better than anyone else? I don't know. I don't care. I don't try to force consistency upon reality. It is what it is. He was brilliant in some ways and he was an extreme fruitcake in other ways. For me, THAT is observable reality regarding Hubbard and Scientology, with no thoughts about it acting to interefere with perception.

I have read much of the occult and magic. Hubbard's data on the PDC lectures about the "creation and maintenance of universes", along with the basic information on postulates, agreements, considerations, and mockups, can pretty much EXPLAIN every bit of these other disciplines and methods. But, not the other way around. Though granted, it seems to me that Hubbard intentionally or unintentionally left out a few VITAL KEYS that could possibly allow many people to learn to postulate at will, with no need for the Bridge at all!

For example, most belief systems, whether involving the 12 aspects or "rays" of the Kabbala, or the Chakra energy system, fundamentally exist ONLY because YOU agree that they do. You couldn't be the effect of it, perceive it, or be involved in any of it UNLESS you had first created or co-created it with your own agreements. Postulates, agreements and considerations seem to underlie ALL THAT IS. So, any system failing to point that out CLEARLY is grossly lacking in some way. That is how I see it. Of course, I could be wrong. That's not to say that there aren't many systems that can give results, even GREAT results. There are. It is just that if they never get to a point where they delineate the NATURE of ANY reality (as an illusion), and of your own direct involvement in its creation and maintenance, then they can't take you "all the way home".

Woggin' out
31st December 2009, 12:04 AM
I always thought that a "true Bridge" would involve as-ising ALL considerations, postulates and agreements made since one first involved oneself with "here". If one did THAT, then you could actually gain a pure state of "self-awareness" with nothing else anywhere to be perceived or able to be perceived. In effect, you would have "checked out". Apparently, as I currently understand it, the highest truth is that any reality is an illusion, held in place for you solely BY YOU. The details of that reality solely depend on your own hidden, unchangeable, held-with-deep-conviction postulates, agreements and considerations about all that is. YOU, as a "static", as the invisible source of it all, capable of mocking up realities through considerations and agreements, and capable of bringing about a state of consciousness, are the HIGHEST TRUTH. All else follows from THAT. And reality, from that view, can be anything.

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Yes Gladfly,
this is what I had thought and what I had wanted out of The Bridge. I feel like I've done a bit of a U TURN on a spiritual level after reading this whole thread and your post. That's cool. One can go back on the road he'd been on if just to pick up a few coins he may have dropped realizing he may have a use for them after all.":yes:
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That is how I see it. Of course, I could be wrong. That's not to say that there aren't many systems that can give results, even GREAT results. There are. It is just that if they never get to a point where they delineate the NATURE of ANY reality (as an illusion), and of your own direct involvement in its creation and maintenance, then they can't take you "all the way home".

" As usual a well thought out and provoking posting Gadfly. :write: Thank you and I hope your New Year is the best illusion for you ever"!! Cheers!:cheers:

Gadfly
31st December 2009, 12:13 AM
" As usual a well thought out and provoking posting Gadfly. :write: Thank you and I hope your New Year is the best illusion for you ever"!! Cheers!:cheers:

Well, thank-you for the wish for the best New Year illusion ever! The same back at ya! :happydance:

By the way, I take and use whatever works for me, no matter what the source. I just try to be honest with myself. I am not trying to please anyone else.

lkwdblds
31st December 2009, 12:37 AM
I always enjoyed Hubbard's writings on postulates and considerations, and how they relate to creation and ones personal experiences of reality.

But, I especially like how Goethe says it:

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans:

That the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one that never would otherwise have occurred.

A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamt would have come his way.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it."

This involves basic ideas of visualization, practical magick and various occult "creative" techniques. I used to show this to various Scientologists, back when I was involved, and almost one for one, the person would really like it, adding. "I never saw that by LRH". When I told them it wasn't by LRH, they would often get uncomfortable. Sad, that the Churchies so often develop an inner restriction to viewing and accepting anything other than Hubbard as "valid". THAT attitude is nurtured in members, due to KSW indoctrination. In fact, there is SO MUCH great stuff out there, yet the usual Churchie is cut off from much of it due to the attitude bred in them by repetitive contact with basic Scientology KSW beliefs.

Oh, yeah, and I can remember Churchies expressing the idea that ANYTHING that might work and be valid, which wasn't by LRH, MUST actually be some "version of Scientology data in a different form". In other words, to them, as they saw it based upon their fixed ideas, whatever truth might exist in the above quote MUST actually be a form of LRH's true data on life and all that is! Such pompousness and presumptuousness! I would be laughing inside observing such nonsense in Church members. It wasn't uncommon.

Gadfly, you have always written very informative posts on these types of subjects. I was skimming through the newer threads and found yours and it looked very interesting.

I always heard that Goethe was great, sort of a German Shakespeare but I never studied him. Your above quote shows his true insight and greatness. I am surprised Hubbard did not acknowledge him in the early days of Scientology when he acked other Sources of knowledge.

I did read one Goethe novelette. "The sufferings of youn Werther." It was not one of Goethe's major works, sort of a late 18th century tale of a teen age lad who took a loss on his 2nd dynamic. My other exposure is that Shubert set a lot of Goethe's poems to music as did other composers, including Beethoven. Lastly in German class we learned a short poem, quite profound, in German. I still remember it.

By J.W.von Goethe
Title of Poem - Wanderers Nachtlied II

" In allen Wipfeln
ist ruhe.
In allen gipfeln
spurest du kuam eine hauch.
Die fogelein schweigen im walde,
Wartest nur balde,
ruhest du auch."

The translation is:
Wayfarers Night Song II

"Over all the hilltops
Is calm.
In all the treetops
you feel hardly a breath.
The birdlings fall silent in the woods,
Just wait...soon
You'll also be at rest.

HOW BEAUTIFUL IS THAT!
Our German teacher told us the beauty was that Goethe started up in the hilltops, desceneded to the treetops, then to the birds, perching at a lower levels and then finally to man who would soon find his rest (or peace). The year was 1966, the place was Los Angeles City College night school, I was 26.

How OT is this poem, promising mankind to be at rest. (A static).

Gadfly, your concluding comments were beautifully stated. How could intelligent people fall for the concept that all things worthwhile were all discovered by LRH or stolen from his works? I bought into this for years and years and even you, nobody's fool bought into it albeit for a shorter time than I did.

Maybe part of the fact that the Germans have less tolerance for Scientology than other countries is that most of them learned about Goethe and his works as part of their education in public schools.
Lakey

hbeer
31st December 2009, 10:01 AM
By J.W. Goethe
Title of Poem - Wanderers Nachtlied II

" In allen Wipfeln
ist ruhe.
In allen gipfeln
spurest du kuam eine hauch.
Die fogelein schweigen im walde,
Wartest nur balde,
ruhest du auch."




Hi Lakey,


beautiful thoughts!

Allow me to write again the german text of Goethe's poem. There are a few mistakes in there. My native language is German, and I happen to know it by heart. If you want, copy and paste my rendition into your original post (that will keep the "Umlaute", german special characters, intact) - then I'll delete this one.


Über allen Gipfeln
ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln
spürest du
kaum einen Hauch.

Die Vögelein schweigen
im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch.





.

lkwdblds
1st January 2010, 01:00 AM
Hi Lakey,


beautiful thoughts!

Allow me to write again the german text of Goethe's poem. There are a few mistakes in there. My native language is German, and I happen to know it by heart. If you want, copy and paste my rendition into your original post (that will keep the "Umlaute", german special characters, intact) - then I'll delete this one.


Über allen Gipfeln
ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln
spürest du
kaum einen Hauch.

Die Vögelein schweigen
im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch.



.

Jawohl, sehr gut! Ich bin zufrieden!
Yes indeed, very good. I am content! (with your edits). Thanks Hiedrun, my postulate worked and you did show up to edit the poem! Its amazing the resources we have available on ESMB. What do you think of Goethe's thoughts in both Gadfly's and my quotes. Doesn't it seem as if he had awareness of many OT like concepts. Warte...nur balde ruhest du auch. Wait ... just wait, you too will be still and calm. English just can't capture the total beauty of the original languatg but one can still get the idea. Have you considered Private Messaging Karl Braunsteiner? So far I have not given you any bad advice, I think this would be a good thing to do, if you have the time, of course.
Lakey

hbeer
1st January 2010, 07:45 AM
Jawohl, sehr gut! Ich bin zufrieden!
Yes indeed, very good. I am content! (with your edits). Thanks Hiedrun, my postulate worked and you did show up to edit the poem! Its amazing the resources we have available on ESMB.


Hi Lakey,


happy to be of service :)


What do you think of Goethe's thoughts in both Gadfly's and my quotes. Doesn't it seem as if he had awareness of many OT like concepts. Warte...nur balde ruhest du auch. Wait ... just wait, you too will be still and calm. English just can't capture the total beauty of the original languatg but one can still get the idea.


Goethe is a giant in knowingness. And another giant in verbal expression. I am very privileged to have grown up in the same language, so I can read his texts without needing a translation.

Only that one line "warte nur, balde ruhest du auch" may just refer to death, saying that our lives are short and fleeting?


Have you considered Private Messaging Karl Braunsteiner? So far I have not given you any bad advice, I think this would be a good thing to do, if you have the time, of course.
Lakey


I might do that, next week or so. Right now I have work pressure. Did you have a specific reason in mind, why I should connect with him?



Best,

Lucretia
1st January 2010, 08:15 AM
Panda, your Christmas story is beautiful. Thank you for telling it.

Since rejecting the con, I turned my back on all things spiritual. I used to be very open to the paranormal, esp and all, but $cn cured me of that, so I decided not to believe in anything and now I don't. Life is much simpler!! But reading your story has opened a crack into the metaphysical realm again, and I have some thinking to do.



For example, most belief systems, whether involving the 12 aspects or "rays" of the Kabbala, or the Chakra energy system, fundamentally exist ONLY because YOU agree that they do. You couldn't be the effect of it, perceive it, or be involved in any of it UNLESS you had first created or co-created it with your own agreements. Postulates, agreements and considerations seem to underlie ALL THAT IS. So, any system failing to point that out CLEARLY is grossly lacking in some way. That is how I see it. Of course, I could be wrong. That's not to say that there aren't many systems that can give results, even GREAT results. There are. It is just that if they never get to a point where they delineate the NATURE of ANY reality (as an illusion), and of your own direct involvement in its creation and maintenance, then they can't take you "all the way home".

And Gladfly - I absolutely agree. This is how I explained my "gains" from $cn, which actually were not gains - I just agreed they were. So my cure been to disagree with the whole spiritual field for nearly 3 years, but...hmmmm. As I said, I'll have to do some thinking.

Gadfly
3rd January 2010, 03:38 PM
And Gladfly - I absolutely agree. This is how I explained my "gains" from $cn, which actually were not gains - I just agreed they were. So my cure been to disagree with the whole spiritual field for nearly 3 years, but...hmmmm. As I said, I'll have to do some thinking.

Good for you! Just because there is one (or are a few) bad apples in the barrel does NOT make them all bad. Differentiate! I agree with Hubbard's statements about generalities, and that sanity exists to the degree that any person can accurately perceive identities, similarities and differences in the thinking of self and others. I suggest applying THAT notion to your relationship to Scientology and all things "spiritual" (for you).

Also, these ideas from the Data Series, aren't valid because Hubbard "said so". They are valid, for me, because they describe aspects of reality in a way that seems to describe it well when I take the time to observe similar things on my own. And, these ideas about sanity, generalities, differentiation, similarities and identities first appeared in the writings of General Semantics. Hubard didn't "create" them at all. He pretty much stole them, and altered them as he saw fit.

lkwdblds
7th January 2010, 01:43 AM
Gadfly, you have always written very informative posts on these types of subjects. I was skimming through the newer threads and found yours and it looked very interesting.

I always heard that Goethe was great, sort of a German Shakespeare but I never studied him. Your above quote shows his true insight and greatness. I am surprised Hubbard did not acknowledge him in the early days of Scientology when he acked other Sources of knowledge.

I did read one Goethe novelette. "The sufferings of youn Werther." It was not one of Goethe's major works, sort of a late 18th century tale of a teen age lad who took a loss on his 2nd dynamic. My other exposure is that Shubert set a lot of Goethe's poems to music as did other composers, including Beethoven. Lastly in German class we learned a short poem, quite profound, in German. I still remember it.

By J.W.von Goethe
Title of Poem - Wanderers Nachtlied II

" In allen Wipfeln
ist ruhe.
In allen gipfeln
spurest du kuam eine hauch.
Die fogelein schweigen im walde,
Wartest nur balde,
ruhest du auch."

The translation is:
Wayfarers Night Song II

"Over all the hilltops
Is calm.
In all the treetops
you feel hardly a breath.
The birdlings fall silent in the woods,
Just wait...soon
You'll also be at rest.

HOW BEAUTIFUL IS THAT!
Our German teacher told us the beauty was that Goethe started up in the hilltops, desceneded to the treetops, then to the birds, perching at a lower levels and then finally to man who would soon find his rest (or peace). The year was 1966, the place was Los Angeles City College night school, I was 26.

How OT is this poem, promising mankind to be at rest. (A static).

Gadfly, your concluding comments were beautifully stated. How could intelligent people fall for the concept that all things worthwhile were all discovered by LRH or stolen from his works? I bought into this for years and years and even you, nobody's fool bought into it albeit for a shorter time than I did.

Maybe part of the fact that the Germans have less tolerance for Scientology than other countries is that most of them learned about Goethe and his works as part of their education in public schools.
Lakey

UPDATE JANUARY 7, 2010 - I WAS THINKING OF NEW ABILITIES I AM ACHIEVING HERE ON ESMB AND WANTED TO GIVE A NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION TO GOETHE'S POEM WHICH CAPTURES MORE OF THE ORIGINAL GERMAN FEELING FOR ENGLISH SPEAKING VIEWERS;

My new and improved English translation of the Goethe poem Wayfarers Night Song II

Tis quiet in the heavens now,
In the treetops you hear
scarely a sigh.
The birdlings silent in woodsy nest,
Wait.... very soon,
You too shall rest.

Lakey

hbeer
7th January 2010, 06:41 AM
UPDATE JANUARY 7, 2010 - I WAS THINKING OF NEW ABILITIES I AM ACHIEVING HERE ON ESMB AND WANTED TO GIVE A NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION TO GOETHE'S POEM WHICH CAPTURES MORE OF THE ORIGINAL GERMAN FEELING FOR ENGLISH SPEAKING VIEWERS;

My new and improved English translation of the Goethe poem Wayfarers Night Song II

Tis quiet in the heavens now,
In the treetops you hear
scarely a sigh.
The birdlings silent in woodsy nest,
Wait.... very soon,
You too shall rest.

Lakey



This is very beautifully done, Lakey!

Only I wouldn't have removed the very plastic image of mountain tops ("Gipfel"). "Heavens" is much more abstract - Goethe paints a picture of nature but then animates it with meaning.

If you also want consistent rhymes, the english text could be like this:


Of silence flows a tune
around the mountains high.
The treetops seem
to barely sigh.
The birdlings dream
in woodsy nest,
Wait.... very soon,
You too shall rest.


For rhymes, see http://www.rhymer.com/

:)



Oh, and the german text has a few mistakes. Here is the original version (I happen to know it by heart):



Über allen Gipfeln ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln spürest du
kaum einen Hauch.
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch.





.