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aaron saxton
29th December 2009, 05:28 AM
I just found out Marty spoke of his trip to the Freewinds and gave his reasons for it.

In March 1995, when I was known as Aaron Tweddell, I went to the ship on a confidential mission. I did not go as an SO member. Although I was in the Sea Org.

I can tell you that Marty had blown the Sea Org, and had been recovered. However, because his blow was actually not just about doubts on the Sea Org, but on Scientology, he was taken to the ship.

His handler was the number 2 in charge - the Inspector General, Greg Wilhere.

I can tell you that he had his ass sec checked to high heaven, and he wasn't there because the tech was better - what is wrong with Int Base? Would you really beleive a course supervisor on the Freewinds is somehow better than the FLB or up at Int where DM goes on course personally? Puleeeeeaze.

He was there also because he was a weak link for the SO and they didn't want him running aorund the United States being suppeoned.

He would make you beleive he was on the Freewinds getting his new appreciation of LRH tech - when in fact he was being drilled like a piece of wood by Greg Wilhere on the ship and kept under lock and key.

Anyone on the ship in early 1995 will tell you the same thing if they had any kind of clearance.

People out fo the SO who are active against the church can confirm I was on the Ship, such as laura (DT2000) who was involved in me being sent to the Ship in the first place.

Aaron Saxton (Tweddell)

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 05:34 AM
But, But, Marty was just regaining his appreciation for pure LRH tech! He swears it is so.

DM wanted him back so bad when he blew he gave him the gift of pure LRH study time aboard the peaceful Freewinds, to get back in touch with what "he really loved about Scientology and why he joined in the first place, plus some gang bang sec checks, constant monitoring and uh a really good brainwashing it would seem.

I'm just so stunned that Marty would lie, who'd a thunk it.

Spirited
29th December 2009, 05:38 AM
Is there a link available of him saying this please? :)

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 05:48 AM
Is there a link available of him saying this please? :)

It's part of the Truth Rundown series of videos. Hold on and I will post a link to the specific video if it allows it.

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/rathbun.shtml

I believe its in the video "From Renovation to IRS Rathbun rises..." - towards the end of the video. (If not that one the next one finished the tale) He speaks of blowing right after the IRS win and DM tracking him down to New Orleans. They meet there and DM offers to let him go to the freewinds to "study" and rediscover what he loved about Scieno in the first place. He then speaks about how he was able to just study the "pure tech" for a few years before returning to Flag. Upon his return he was doing lowly work and then the McPherson case hits.

Spirited
29th December 2009, 06:04 AM
thanks bunnyskull:thumbsup:

Gottabrain
29th December 2009, 06:09 AM
Ta, Aaron!!!:thumbsup:

I would personally be extremely interested in any first-hand accounts you or anyone else can provide with specifics on Marty Rathbun, as well as any other contradictions you or anyone else see.

aaron saxton
29th December 2009, 06:18 AM
Well as much as I would love to go through Marty's statements and find more, there really is no need. The guy is a walking contradiction and he will not engage with me directly on any level, so there really is no point.

Someone told me what he said and I had to correct it. Goodness me, if anyone just looks at his blog the outnesses are so flagrant that it defies beleief. It is no wonder more and more people each day are beginning to see his true colors.

Cheers,

Aaron

Gottabrain
29th December 2009, 06:45 AM
Yes, I have found falsehoods there myself. I just really don't get where he's coming from, though. He appears to be a complete Scientologist, but against DM, but he has been in far too long and out far too long not to be aware that many of the problems he is blaming on DM were always there under Elron - and other abuses occurred under Elron that don't exist within the C of S now. (i.e., throwing people overboard, kids being chained to pipes, etc.)

Maybe it's all about money for him? Revenge? I don't know. I really don't.

bts2free
29th December 2009, 06:49 AM
Would you really beleive a course supervisor on the Freewinds is somehow better than the FLB or up at Int where DM goes on course personally? Puleeeeeaze.


Just so you know, in the 10 years I was at the base, 6 of them being on Qual and HCO lines, David Miscavige never set foot in the course room to actually study or train. Other ex-Int basers will agree on that FACT. It was a continuous flap in Qual that COB and many other high up Int executives refused to show up for "enhancement" time because of post flaps. MAA's, (and I was one of them), would go out and literally body route crew such as ED Int and other Int execs into the course room if they didn't show up for roll call. Since Miscavige was RTC and the most senior exec, only his wife Shelley had any sort of "authority" to get him to possibly change his mind about going on course. Which of course, never happened. But Qual staff definitely pleaded with her to get him to show up. COB wouldn't be trained or audited by anyone else unless he was cloned.

As for other base crew, if it was found that you had left your post to go on course and there was a flap in your area, or COB came to see you and you weren't on post, you got into major trouble - lower condition assignment at the least. So, the general atmosphere at the base was to just not go on course if there was major production to do in your area - which was ALL the time.

And yes, I remember when Marty and Wilhere came back from the Freewinds after Marty's handling there. The MAA's, again me being one of them at the time, were personally trained by Marty and Wilhere on how to do metered ethics interviews and other metered "not auditing you" ethics actions/investigation tech which was soon released in an IGNW bulletin as written by Marty Rathbun, and per Marty at his own blog "ordered by DM." Marty and Wilhere both boasted as to having "put together" this gem of LRH ethics Tech that "had been out of use for years." This is why soon after GAT came out, a LOT more metered ethics interviews and interrogations were being done in general. RTC was on an ethics trip and never got out of it. Marty being one of the major enforcers of "Black Scientology" for DM, which is what he's wailing about now. One of the main guys wearing the black hats now crying about it and pointing fingers.

It was never about the Tech or even going OT at the Int base. There were tiny spurts over the years where study time would become mandatory, i.e. during the KTL evolution, but that was about it. Due to the constant flaps at the base, study time or auditing was a joke. I even wondered how in the fuck we were supposed to Clear a damn planet if hardly anyone at the Int base ever got trained or made it to OT. The whole time I was there, there was only one OT I-III completion, and that was Thomas Bourke in PDO. The other OT completions were the RTC reps who were sent out to the conts, my ex-wife being one of them. Other than that, Pat Bromley's OT Course room was empty all the time. I think she even got transferred to another post after a while for no production and held that "from the side" or something.

Yeah Aaron, I highly doubt that Marty, after blowing, was given the "gift" of studying pure LRH Tech all on his own, on the Freewinds, when the entire Int Base couldn't get to the course room for the most part to save their own lives, unless forced by the MAA.

Marty had to come up with an effective blow for his Liability formula, and I believe that part of it was to write that IGNW bulletin and bring on another wave of witch hunts and heavy ethics for all. That's why, since day one of Marty coming out, I never bought into it. I saw too many people ruined by his personal actions, and on his own steam. DM didn't need to make him do any of these things, he did it all on his own free will, and he tried blowing when he couldn't look at himself in the mirror anymore.

aaron saxton
29th December 2009, 07:13 AM
Wow.

Now that's just not good information, it is fantastic! That gives the flavor of what was going on up there. And it is good to read these sorts of responses that give a true concept of what was going on.

And when informaiton like this gets coupled with other pieces here and there it all becomes very clear and apparent.

I am glad I posted this just to read that response from bts2. Great stuff.

Aaron

Gottabrain
29th December 2009, 08:17 AM
Awesome post, 2free. :thumbsup:

Okay, I get the picture. So to summarize: Marty Rathbun's motivations appear to be partly guilt, partly ignorance, partly self-righteousness on his part, and a very long term lack of actual studying that has lead to his continued ignorance and spreading that ignorance. He probably never even bothered to research any of his facts outside Scilo tech before posting his opinions. Ignorance is bliss.

Most importantly, since Marty has not fully confronted and taken responsibility for his own crimes, he still shows little to no humility and continues to project the image that worked so well for him in the SO, he has not had any earth-shattering realizations about the depth of the inhumane crimes he perpetrated and the true source of it all. He has only scratched the surface and appears happy to remain there.

Does that sound like a valid, objective summary? Have I missed anything?

thetanic
29th December 2009, 08:54 AM
Ehh fuck Marty Rathbun. I don't give a crap about his motivations.

All the fixation on him is simply taking away attention from what's going on right now in the Co$.

Carmel
29th December 2009, 12:57 PM
Ehh fuck Marty Rathbun. I don't give a crap about his motivations.

All the fixation on him is simply taking away attention from what's going on right now in the Co$.
No, it's not! Not at all.

Firstly, seeing something for what it is, is invaluable in regard to freeing oneself of the adverse affect of it.

Secondly, if we "critics" were unaware or ignorant of Marty's game, then he could have gotten away with what he intended to get away with - This would have resulted in NO attention on what is going on within the CofS.......The focus would be on DM, NOT the CofS, and the Cofs would be off the hook and permitted to continue with its abuses as it has been for decades now.

Marty's efforts are counter to exposing the CofS for what it is. The more that can be posted about his lies and deceit, then hopefully the more "supporters" of his will wake up to the fact of who and what they are supporting.

Marty Rathbun has cost the critics countless hours of work, effort, and ground made. Most of his "supporters" are good people. If only these good people could see that every time that they forward his BS, they are countering efforts to expose the CofS for what it is and countering efforts to eliminate the abuses and crimes at the hands of the CofS.

I wouldn't give a fuck about Marty if he wasn't sucking in good people who he has somehow enticed to play his game (which is one in total contrast to the one they think they are playing) and one which is in total contrast to their own endeavours.

Until everyone wakes the fuck up on Marty, it's not "fixation" but a warranted attention on a deviate who's leading way too many up the garden path by fooling them to assist him with his undisclosed agenda.


Just so you know, in the 10 years I was at the base, 6 of them being on Qual and HCO lines, David Miscavige never set foot in the course room to actually study or train. Other ex-Int basers will agree on that FACT. It was a continuous flap in Qual that COB and many other high up Int executives refused to show up for "enhancement" time because of post flaps. MAA's, (and I was one of them), would go out and literally body route crew such as ED Int and other Int execs into the course room if they didn't show up for roll call. Since Miscavige was RTC and the most senior exec, only his wife Shelley had any sort of "authority" to get him to possibly change his mind about going on course. Which of course, never happened. But Qual staff definitely pleaded with her to get him to show up. COB wouldn't be trained or audited by anyone else unless he was cloned.

As for other base crew, if it was found that you had left your post to go on course and there was a flap in your area, or COB came to see you and you weren't on post, you got into major trouble - lower condition assignment at the least. So, the general atmosphere at the base was to just not go on course if there was major production to do in your area - which was ALL the time.

And yes, I remember when Marty and Wilhere came back from the Freewinds after Marty's handling there. The MAA's, again me being one of them at the time, were personally trained by Marty and Wilhere on how to do metered ethics interviews and other metered "not auditing you" ethics actions/investigation tech which was soon released in an IGNW bulletin as written by Marty Rathbun, and per Marty at his own blog "ordered by DM." Marty and Wilhere both boasted as to having "put together" this gem of LRH ethics Tech that "had been out of use for years." This is why soon after GAT came out, a LOT more metered ethics interviews and interrogations were being done in general. RTC was on an ethics trip and never got out of it. Marty being one of the major enforcers of "Black Scientology" for DM, which is what he's wailing about now. One of the main guys wearing the black hats now crying about it and pointing fingers.

It was never about the Tech or even going OT at the Int base. There were tiny spurts over the years where study time would become mandatory, i.e. during the KTL evolution, but that was about it. Due to the constant flaps at the base, study time or auditing was a joke. I even wondered how in the fuck we were supposed to Clear a damn planet if hardly anyone at the Int base ever got trained or made it to OT. The whole time I was there, there was only one OT I-III completion, and that was Thomas Bourke in PDO. The other OT completions were the RTC reps who were sent out to the conts, my ex-wife being one of them. Other than that, Pat Bromley's OT Course room was empty all the time. I think she even got transferred to another post after a while for no production and held that "from the side" or something.

Yeah Aaron, I highly doubt that Marty, after blowing, was given the "gift" of studying pure LRH Tech all on his own, on the Freewinds, when the entire Int Base couldn't get to the course room for the most part to save their own lives, unless forced by the MAA.

Marty had to come up with an effective blow for his Liability formula, and I believe that part of it was to write that IGNW bulletin and bring on another wave of witch hunts and heavy ethics for all. That's why, since day one of Marty coming out, I never bought into it. I saw too many people ruined by his personal actions, and on his own steam. DM didn't need to make him do any of these things, he did it all on his own free will, and he tried blowing when he couldn't look at himself in the mirror anymore.
Thanks for posting, bts. :)

Those "black Scientology" interviews/interrogations made it to ANZO in '97 - I know that similar was done by LRH, and that there was some pretty wild stuff in the RB confidential series, but I had never seen the likes of stuff like that (during my time from early '80 till '97). I had wondered where the hell these had come from and why they had seemingly come out of the blue - You've solved that piece of the puzzle for me.

My God, I certainly haven't had Marty as any kind of ally for many months now and I've been down on him for more reasons than one.......but this info on Marty really takes the cake! Fuck me dead, to say the least!!!

My oh my! At Int they referred to this "procedure" as a "brain fry". What to do with an internal threat? - "Give them a brain fry to shut them down". It shut them down alright. They ended up permanently introverted feeling like a DB, going psycho, going type 3, or suiciding.

Clever work, Marty. There's no doubt that you're a smart c'nt in some areas (you seem to have a handle on tech, and on PR charm that works with some).....it's a pity about your lack of heart and lack of concern for anyone but yourself though.

Being selfish and having a lack of heart is one thing (and bad enough), but being cruel to others for the benefit of oneself is another. Shame on you, Marty, and shame on anyone who is denial on this matter.

thetanic
29th December 2009, 01:02 PM
Marty's efforts are counter to exposing the CofS for what it is. The more that can be posted about his lies and deceit, then hopefully the more "supporters" of his will wake up to the fact of who and what they are supporting.

Okay, I can see that, but it seems there's disproportionate energy being pushed Marty's way. (I'd respond to more but my keyboard is acting up....)

pollywannacracker
29th December 2009, 01:29 PM
But, But, Marty was just regaining his appreciation for pure LRH tech! He swears it is so.

DM wanted him back so bad when he blew he gave him the gift of pure LRH study time aboard the peaceful Freewinds, to get back in touch with what "he really loved about Scientology and why he joined in the first place, plus some gang bang sec checks, constant monitoring and uh a really good brainwashing it would seem.

I'm just so stunned that Marty would lie, who'd a thunk it.

I dunno, another one of those Scientology acceptable truths? :D

Eldon
29th December 2009, 01:33 PM
Marty Rathbun has cost the critics countless hours of work, effort, and ground made. Most of his "supporters" are good people. If only these good people could see that every time that they forward his BS, they are countering efforts to expose the CofS for what it is and countering efforts to eliminate the abuses and crimes at the hands of the CofS.

I wouldn't give a fuck about Marty if he wasn't sucking in good people who he has somehow enticed to play his game (which is one in total contrast to the one they think they are playing) and one which is in total contrast to their own endeavours....

Being selfish and having a lack of heart is one thing (and bad enough), but being cruel to others for the benefit of oneself is another. Shame on you, Marty, and shame on anyone who is denial on this matter.

You said it, Carmel. I have been posting on his blog (under my own name till he banned me, then using pseudos with an anonymous proxy). Mostly what I've tried to do was toss some cognitive dissonance into the salad by providing contradictory info and asking leading questions. Marty's response to anyone who points out nonsense like the preposterous "soaring then inexplicably dead" post about Ed McBride? Why, they didn't read it correctly and have a bad attitude. Huh? He and his True Believer minions have an unstated rule that neither LRH nor The Tech may be questioned -- period!

I think it's important to lead those poor, gullible folks down the garden path towards rational mindfuck so they'll deprogram sooner than they would otherwise. Jim Logan and a couple of others may take a long time to wake up, though.

pollywannacracker
29th December 2009, 01:52 PM
You said it, Carmel. I have been posting on his blog (under my own name till he banned me, then using pseudos with an anonymous proxy). Mostly what I've tried to do was toss some cognitive dissonance into the salad by providing contradictory info and asking leading questions. Marty's response to anyone who points out nonsense like the preposterous "soaring then inexplicably dead" post about Ed McBride? Why, they didn't read it correctly and have a bad attitude. Huh? He and his True Believer minions have an unstated rule that neither LRH nor The Tech may be questioned -- period!

I think it's important to lead those poor, gullible folks down the garden path towards rational mindfuck so they'll deprogram sooner than they would otherwise. Jim Logan and a couple of others may take a long time to wake up, though.

It seems that Marty is using his PR skills to bring exes and those newly out into his own fold. Scientology remains the same, but the "acting chief" is much more "benevolent".

Maybe this is the first baby step for many who are newly out, but it is the first step forward that will lead them to many steps backwards. I agree that those who are newly out will wake up much more quickly if they weren't sucked into Marty's quest.

This yellow brick road looks more and more likely that it is leading to a "new and improved" Co$ with a new leader at the helm. The refraction of Marty's light may come to prove that it is bending in the direction of keeping the church and ALL of it's tenets (good and bad) alive.

And that is something I am not willing to be a part of. So let's keep the truth out there. It may come to pass that Marty won't achieve his ideal scene now or in the not-to-distant future.

-PWC

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 01:59 PM
I think it's important to lead those poor, gullible folks down the garden path towards rational mindfuck so they'll deprogram sooner than they would otherwise. Jim Logan and a couple of others may take a long time to wake up, though.

Jim Logan is the most pathetic and disturbing example of Marty's Sycophant Squad (MSS) - a true version of the battered Scieno syndrome. A guy who ex-wife Marty admits to returning from a 'blow" to meet up with Jim and ultimately convincing her to divorce Jim. Jim was shit on for year and years afterwards by CoS and OSA. Yet, when Marty finally walks away and starts posting Jim devotes hours of his time to defending and lambasting anyone who dares to question the Dear Leader.

His perpetual ass kissing is actually uncomfortable to read even if you don't know the back story, but if you do know the history it becomes something that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. IDK wtf is wrong with Jim Logan's brain that he has the cognitive dissonance to worship a guy who has fucked him over so royally - but I guess that's not Marty's fault. The CoS softened his brain so much it's really no great challenge for Marty to take over the space left by the CoS. Jim's been waiting for years for another CoS disciple to tell him what to do - it's the only way he can feel validated.

SchwimmelPuckel
29th December 2009, 02:00 PM
I probably don't have to say this.. But just to paint it bold on the wall:

Mr.Rathbun telling us an endearing tale about being given the god(COB)sent opportunity to finally study LRH tech on the Freewinds.. While in fact he was there so that he couldn't run anywhere.. And outside swimming range of anywhere else.. And being drilled like a piece of wood (heh.. Wonderful expression that!)

Well, the first vesion looks like a carefully planned cover story for Mr.Rathbun.. While the second version has a certain ring of truth to it.

So it would seem to me that Mr.Rathbun has not so much left the official Church of Scientology, as he being on a 'Mission'..

A 'Mission' to recover and salvage the wreck of Scientology, whose brand-name and PR is FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond Any Repair).. The recovery attempt to make it look like a 'revolution' takes place inside the cult. Where the 'good guys' win, and hence the 'cult' is good again. All the crimes of the past forgotten. Was the evil old crew who did all that!

There's an outline of Hubbards 'Power Change Formula' visible through the fog of obfuscation I think..

Hmm.. Miscavige is obviously the 'fallguy' in this scenario.. Would he perform that part? - He IS a hardcore SO Fool on the Hill 10! - Remember that.

Well.. Possibly Mr.Rathbun is doing this on his own.. Ie. Without DM being in on it.. But I don't think so.

:wiggle:

Voltaire's Child
29th December 2009, 02:49 PM
Who the fuck is Marty Rathburn? Never heard of ANY ex exec of the Church by that name.

Eldon
29th December 2009, 02:53 PM
So it would seem to me that Mr.Rathbun has not so much left the official Church of Scientology, as he being on a 'Mission'..

A 'Mission' to recover and salvage the wreck of Scientology, whose brand-name and PR is FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond Any Repair).. The recovery attempt to make it look like a 'revolution' takes place inside the cult. Where the 'good guys' win, and hence the 'cult' is good again. All the crimes of the past forgotten. Was the evil old crew who did all that!

There's an outline of Hubbards 'Power Change Formula' visible through the fog of obfuscation I think..

Hmm.. Miscavige is obviously the 'fallguy' in this scenario.. Would he perform that part? - He IS a hardcore SO Fool on the Hill 10! - Remember that.

Well.. Possibly Mr.Rathbun is doing this on his own.. Ie. Without DM being in on it.. But I don't think so. :wiggle:

Third possibility: Marty has given DM a choice (ultimatum): capitulate and cut a deal... or else! I don't think they've been in cahoots all along, but I do think Marty would be amenable to an orderly transition. To what, I don't know.

anonomog
29th December 2009, 03:17 PM
I wonder if Marty has deleted his blog intentionally. Maybe too many words to analyse by others and too many contradictions for all the world to see.

Pity I really enjoyed those comments.

EDIT: Oops saw in another thread site been hacked.

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 03:29 PM
I just hope plenty of people have kept copies of all his past blog posts and comments. Looks the anons are on the shit and have easily found away to get in the history (which robot.txt tried to block) and get it all copied.

I do believe he will be back up and running very soon. Figure some of his more tech savvy friends have convinced Mahty that the blog is "breeched" and he must scrap it and begin anew - or at least that's what he will say. I just wonder if all his old posts will be reloaded into the new blog.

Operating DB
29th December 2009, 03:43 PM
Hi Aaron. I like your acitvism. Thank you!

I'm curious about your name change. Can you explain that?

Also, what does IGNW stand for?

JohnnyRUClear
29th December 2009, 03:50 PM
Who the fuck is Marty Rathburn? Never heard of ANY ex exec of the Church by that name.
I think Marty Rathburn changed his name to Marty Rathbun, but some haven't noticed yet. :confused2:


Hi Aaron. I like your acitvism. Thank you!

I'm curious about your name change. Can you explain that?

Also, what does IGNW stand for?
Indoctrinating Gullible New Wogs? :D

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 03:56 PM
Also, what does IGNW stand for?

Inspector-General Network.

Paul

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 04:04 PM
I just hope plenty of people have kept copies of all his past blog posts and comments. Looks the anons are on the shit and have easily found away to get in the history (which robot.txt tried to block) and get it all copied.


I wouldn't bank on it. Someone there posted how to retrieve it, post by post, from Google's cache (quote: "I'm on it too. It's easy, when you want to navigate to a link from a cached page, rather than click on the link, use "copy link location", then paste after "http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:" in the address bar. You can get pretty much all of his posts this way, comments included.. But I can't possibly do all alone, would be better if each take a month or something.." unquote).

But it's a lot of work and if you don't care that much why bother? If it was MY blog that had been deleted without my permission, and I had been foolish enough not to have it backed up somewhere, I might try something like this, but otherwise I wouldn't be that interested.

Paul

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't bank on it. Someone there posted how to retrieve it, post by post, from Google's cache (quote: "I'm on it too. It's easy, when you want to navigate to a link from a cached page, rather than click on the link, use "copy link location", then paste after "http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:" in the address bar. You can get pretty much all of his posts this way, comments included.. But I can't possibly do all alone, would be better if each take a month or something.." unquote).

But it's a lot of work and if you don't care that much why bother? If it was MY blog that had been deleted without my permission, and I had been foolish enough not to have it backed up somewhere, I might try something like this, but otherwise I wouldn't be that interested.

Paul

Well, I'm not going through the effort so I guess I'm merely cheerleading. I only think its a good idea so we can catch the PR sanfu and goofs he makes then tries to delete. I think he will stop doing that eventually, because he's quickly learning you can't undo something once its out there (unlike his experience in the cult).
Anyway, the blog is back under martyratbun09 and it looks like most of the content is back as well. (Still no Lise/ McBride soaring post btw)
There's some major media brewing and Marty already has posts ready to go when it hits, so no way was he gonna let his blog go down at this critical time - for him. His biggest PR and recruitment attempt is just dawning - I guarantee it. Luckily the media isn't going to focus just on him, plenty of others are participating and it will have the cult shitting cinderblocks so I fully support the effort, even if Mahty does reap some benefits from it.

Voltaire's Child
29th December 2009, 04:29 PM
Nah. It's just that Aaron posts all these threads excoriating Marty Rathbun (not that I'm without skepticism, Marty-ward myself) but cannot be bothered to spell his name correctly, even when it's been repeatedly brought to his attention.

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 05:02 PM
Nah. It's just that Aaron posts all these threads excoriating Marty Rathbun (not that I'm without skepticism, Marty-ward myself) but cannot be bothered to spell his name correctly, even when it's been repeatedly brought to his attention.

Ever think that could be on purpose? Plenty of people like to subtly disrespect others by getting their names wrong on purpose - repeatedly. Ever watch David Letterman?

It's a tweak at their ego. Giving the impression you can't even be bothered to learn their name correctly they are so insignificant or whatever. I see it done in politics constantly and 99% its totally on purpose. It's a form of disrespect you can easily get away with, and easy to sidestep if called out on. Even better if they correct you repeatedly and you repeatedly continue to pronounce/spell it wrong anyway - just chaps their ass to no end.

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 06:02 PM
Ever think that could be on purpose? Plenty of people like to subtly disrespect others by getting their names wrong on purpose - repeatedly. Ever watch David Letterman?

It's a tweak at their ego. Giving the impression you can't even be bothered to learn their name correctly they are so insignificant or whatever. I see it done in politics constantly and 99% its totally on purpose. It's a form of disrespect you can easily get away with, and easy to sidestep if called out on. Even better if they correct you repeatedly and you repeatedly continue to pronounce/spell it wrong anyway - just chaps their ass to no end.

I think he just got it wrong. He makes occasional errors like that. I don't know about you, but I used to think Marty's name was Rathburn too. Funnily enough though, if you look up the frequency at sites like the one below, you'll see that Rathbun is many times as common as Rathburn, the exact proportion varying with country.

http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Default.aspx

Paul

Mick Wenlock
29th December 2009, 06:12 PM
Third possibility: Marty has given DM a choice (ultimatum): capitulate and cut a deal... or else! I don't think they've been in cahoots all along, but I do think Marty would be amenable to an orderly transition. To what, I don't know.

Rathbun would not be able to give DM any ultimatum - Marty was always DM's b**ch and will remain that way until his dying day. So if they are in cahoots, then DM is wearing the pants, carrying the whips and has the key to the mink lined handcuffs.

What I do not get is what lever anyone thinks Rathbun could possibly have to move DM.

Miscavige has the signatures, he has the authority over Scientology trademarks and copyrights. He has unfettered access to the IAS funds and can also call on CofS money.

There is NOTHING that Rathbun could do to any of it. Even if Rathbun convinced every on lines Scientologist in the world that Miscavige is evil incarnate, is the living descendant of Xenu and even if Rathbun had verified videos of DM porking hyenas while swigging Scotch Whiskey and loudly screaming "Fuck L.Ron Hubbard" - it would not matter. There is no "vote".

Rathbun is powerless. Of course he can "intend" away as much as he wants to. he can gather around him all those twits who believe in remote viewing so they can follow DM wherever he may go, they can gather the other "OT Twits" and fire off mental bolts of incredible magnitude to those exact locations pinpointed by the RV doods. And he can write total tripe in his blog.

All that and 50 cents will get him a cup of lousy coffee - but it wont get him the keys to the kingdom.

Voltaire's Child
29th December 2009, 06:12 PM
Ever think that could be on purpose? Plenty of people like to subtly disrespect others by getting their names wrong on purpose - repeatedly. Ever watch David Letterman?

It's a tweak at their ego. Giving the impression you can't even be bothered to learn their name correctly they are so insignificant or whatever. I see it done in politics constantly and 99% its totally on purpose. It's a form of disrespect you can easily get away with, and easy to sidestep if called out on. Even better if they correct you repeatedly and you repeatedly continue to pronounce/spell it wrong anyway - just chaps their ass to no end.

Yeah, I've been on forums for 12 years and have seen it done re DM's name many times.

But it's stupid and just makes the author look foolish and uneducated.

Lulu Belle
29th December 2009, 06:25 PM
...and even if Rathbun had verified videos of DM porking hyenas while swigging Scotch Whiskey and loudly screaming "Fuck L.Ron Hubbard" ...

:omg:

that's quite a visual. :D

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 06:25 PM
Yeah, I've been on forums for 12 years and have seen it done re DM's name many times.

But it's stupid and just makes the author look foolish and uneducated.

Yeah. Besides, Ratbuns would be much better.

Paul

Disinfected
29th December 2009, 06:30 PM
Rathbun would not be able to give DM any ultimatum - Marty was always DM's b**ch and will remain that way until his dying day. So if they are in cahoots, then DM is wearing the pants, carrying the whips and has the key to the mink lined handcuffs.

What I do not get is what lever anyone thinks Rathbun could possibly have to move DM.

Miscavige has the signatures, he has the authority over Scientology trademarks and copyrights. He has unfettered access to the IAS funds and can also call on CofS money.

There is NOTHING that Rathbun could do to any of it. Even if Rathbun convinced every on lines Scientologist in the world that Miscavige is evil incarnate, is the living descendant of Xenu and even if Rathbun had verified videos of DM porking hyenas while swigging Scotch Whiskey and loudly screaming "Fuck L.Ron Hubbard" - it would not matter. There is no "vote".

Rathbun is powerless. Of course he can "intend" away as much as he wants to. he can gather around him all those twits who believe in remote viewing so they can follow DM wherever he may go, they can gather the other "OT Twits" and fire off mental bolts of incredible magnitude to those exact locations pinpointed by the RV doods. And he can write total tripe in his blog.

All that and 50 cents will get him a cup of lousy coffee - but it wont get him the keys to the kingdom.

I do not think Marty is DM's bitch. I think Marty dumped him, fair and square. Other than that, I concur.

Mick Wenlock
29th December 2009, 06:32 PM
I do not think Marty is DM's bitch. I think Marty dumped him, fair and square. Other than that, I concur.

after 15 years of doing everything he was told and then running away, keeping quiet for 5 years and then starting a blog?

Ooh that was brave of him. Yep, he really dumped DM.

LOL

SchwimmelPuckel
29th December 2009, 06:32 PM
I don't give a rats buns how it's spelled.

:melodramatic:

Zinjifar
29th December 2009, 06:37 PM
My personal preference is Wrathbunz.
Other than that...

And, I see no particular reason to even go so far as to think Marty is really 'counter' to David Miscavige. Because he *says so*??? Puleez. He's being very careful not to say anything that could actually 'harm' David Miscavige. Which reminds me, haven't had a chance to look yet, but, did Marty's assertion that David Miscavige was *personally* C/Sing Lisa McPherson return to the new-improved-'unhacked' Martyblog?

Zinj

Disinfected
29th December 2009, 06:44 PM
after 15 years of doing everything he was told and then running away, keeping quiet for 5 years and then starting a blog?

Ooh that was brave of him. Yep, he really dumped DM.

LOL

I am not saying that Marty is particularly brave, though I do give him credit for speaking out against DM when so many others just went gentle into that good night. I am not saying that Marty is a crusader ala Aaron. I think it is clear that he has dumped DM. I think you are mixing apples and oranges . . . or chipmunks and squirrels.

Disinfected
29th December 2009, 06:50 PM
Which reminds me, haven't had a chance to look yet, but, did Marty's assertion that David Miscavige was *personally* C/Sing Lisa McPherson return to the new-improved-'unhacked' Martyblog?

Zinj

Yes, it is there. Does that change anything for you? Didn't think so :whistling:

AnonLover
29th December 2009, 07:11 PM
And yes, I remember when Marty and Wilhere came back from the Freewinds after Marty's handling there. The MAA's, again me being one of them at the time, were personally trained by Marty and Wilhere on how to do metered ethics interviews and other metered "not auditing you" ethics actions/investigation tech which was soon released in an IGNW bulletin as written by Marty Rathbun, and per Marty at his own blog "ordered by DM." Marty and Wilhere both boasted as to having "put together" this gem of LRH ethics Tech that "had been out of use for years." This is why soon after GAT came out, a LOT more metered ethics interviews and interrogations were being done in general. RTC was on an ethics trip and never got out of it. Marty being one of the major enforcers of "Black Scientology" for DM, which is what he's wailing about now. One of the main guys wearing the black hats now crying about it and pointing fingers.


thk u bts2free for sharing this... wow. this + the latest post-hack spin doctoring he's now spieling in regards to DM & co making people hate lrh & scientology... pretty much confirms my own gut suspicion that marty's whole game is one big amends project he cooked up to do right by lrh & the tech to make up for the wrong he did it with the tech while he was in.

wtf else could he be up to, in his own mind - as stated earlier, there is no breaking the cash cow's back gracefully to usher himself anywhere other than a freezone throne.

and if so - he's trapped himself in fighting a lost cause, cutting off nose despite face again & again is inevitable in his near future. good2see it has started sooner rather than later :yes:

Mick Wenlock
29th December 2009, 07:45 PM
I am not saying that Marty is particularly brave, though I do give him credit for speaking out against DM when so many others just went gentle into that good night. I am not saying that Marty is a crusader ala Aaron. I think it is clear that he has dumped DM. I think you are mixing apples and oranges . . . or chipmunks and squirrels.

Speaking out against DM?? You are kidding me. When he could have spoken out , when it would have done some good, he was too busy falling over himself following DM's orders.

When he got out and could have helped real critics like Larry Brennan by providing affidavits of current practices - he did not. he went into hiding.

And when he had waited long enough - he started a blog?

Credit him? He has done nothing - thus far - to deserve credit. He helped DM for years and never said boo, his one protest was to run away occasionally. Once out he has steadfastly refused to put himself in the forefront of anything except writing a self serving blog.

Many people have criticized DM - long before the arrival of this little slug.

But you can give him all the credit you wish.

Eldon
29th December 2009, 07:46 PM
Rathbun would not be able to give DM any ultimatum - Marty was always DM's b**ch and will remain that way until his dying day. So if they are in cahoots, then DM is wearing the pants, carrying the whips and has the key to the mink lined handcuffs.

What I do not get is what lever anyone thinks Rathbun could possibly have to move DM.

M&M likely have some major dirt on DM, maybe something that could send him to prison. Let's wait and see what if anything they told John Sweeney while in London. Marty likes dribbling things out bit by bit, like the Paul Haggis letter he serialized into three parts, only revealing the author's name at the end of Part III.

Zinjifar
29th December 2009, 08:56 PM
M&M likely have some major dirt on DM, maybe something that could send him to prison. Let's wait and see what if anything they told John Sweeney while in London. Marty likes dribbling things out bit by bit, like the Paul Haggis letter he serialized into three parts, only revealing the author's name at the end of Part III.

Why would you think Marty/Mike had any contact with John Sweeney in London? Did he say something about that?

Zinj

Balthasar
29th December 2009, 09:13 PM
M&M likely have some major dirt on DM, maybe something that could send him to prison. Let's wait and see what if anything they told John Sweeney while in London. Marty likes dribbling things out bit by bit, like the Paul Haggis letter he serialized into three parts, only revealing the author's name at the end of Part III.

Maybe true. But my guess is that M&M would risk too much themselves if stirring up real dirt around DM.
The plans of Marthy seem to be quite obvious.
He needs to open up income streams for himself. He is not going to survive financially with his blog or some auditing, that's clear.
He needs PR and MONEY.
So he went to London to get something cooking for himself, and ONLY for himself.
I would guess Marthy is planning a Documentation/Film project and launch a book shortly afterwards.
That's why he met Geir Isene, Terril Park and Axiom 142 and others.
My take is that Geir has the money and the others are useful to him as opinion leaders.
Marthy seriously needs more PR and money than he would be able to generate himself.
He isn't going after DM!
Of course he knows that. But he would like to make as believe that, so as to monopolize our attention on him.
He is planning a big thing!
But the big thing will not be something to save Scientology, purge DM, help people with auditing or something like that. I don't believe this a second.
He is planning to make firstly serious money, and secondly remain the "famous Marty Rathbun" like he always wanted to be.

BunnySkull
29th December 2009, 09:15 PM
Why would you think Marty/Mike had any contact with John Sweeney in London? Did he say something about that?

Zinj

That's the rumor circulating. Also, if it was OSA or anyone related to the cult, they let the cat out of the bag by putting "John Sweeny cupped my nuts" when the defaced Marty's blog.

The magic eight ball says "signs point to yes" on the Sweeny question - but nothing has been confirmed as of yet except some big media is coming down the pike very, very soon. I've heard that sometime this week we will actually get some info. on exactly what that is too. Eyes peeled for a teaser trailer/ commercial hyping a big piece.

Zinjifar
29th December 2009, 10:01 PM
Yeah, I've seen the 'rumor' and my impression is that it's one Marty finds acceptable. And, it's far better to have an unsupported rumor making the rounds than to personally speak the lie.

I can see why it would be popular for Marty fans too. But, in fact, beyond a couple of informal meetings with local London 'tech supporters' (sorry Ax) we know nothing about the London trip or why Marty *and* Mike would undertake it.

Sweeney? No; I doubt it.

Zinj

Axiom142
29th December 2009, 10:10 PM
Look, I know this forum is about the free exchange of ideas regarding Scientology, but am I the only one who is getting a bit fed up with all this endless discussion about Marty Rathbun?

Why am I fed up? Because all this diverts attention away from the real problem. I’m sure that OSA and the minions of Miscavige will be very pleased to see Marty Rathbun being publicly castigated. The last thing they want is for all the opponents of their nasty little cult to be working together. One of the most common tactics is to create dissention and divisions amongst the critics of the CoS.

And, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can state with total certainly exactly what another person’s intentions are, what they are thinking and even know exactly what ‘crimes’ that person has committed, even though they have never even met the person being discussed. I am sure that Marty Rathbun is not at all proud of many of the things he did in the past. And, perhaps he has not been totally open and honest about some of these things. But maybe he is still on a personal journey and hasn’t arrived at his final destination yet?

If I had personally been on the receiving end, I would probably have a different opinion, but I’m more interested in what he can do now.

I agree that several of the contributors to Marty Rathbun’s blog appear to still be in the thrall of Hubbard’s indoctrination. But, so what? I didn’t suddenly wake up and say “Hey, you know what? I’ve just realised that I’ve been conned and lied to and everything that I thought I knew from studying Scientology over the past 20 years is all complete bollocks and I’ve totally changed my view of the world!”

My viewpoint is very different now than when I left the ‘church’ two years ago and I have no doubt that I will have changed again in another two years time. We might think that there are many deluded people who have left the CoS but still cling to the dream of ‘Total Freedom’, but let’s give them a break, eh? At least they have started to wake up and take a look at the actual situation.

The people that I really despise are those such as Leserve, Mithoff, Jentzsch, Starkey and Yager, et al. They must know that something is very wrong and yet when given a chance to do something about it, they just tamely submit to Miscavige’s will and sign some stupid statement saying that all is rosy in the garden of hell.

If someone has an opinion – fine. But please let’s not pretend it is fact. bts2free wrote a very good post with some important data, referencing his own observations. If we really want to take on the CoS and stop their abuses, we need to be able to provide hard evidence to back up any accusations, otherwise the CoS with it’s huge legal resources will just chew us up.

I don’t suppose what I say will make the slightest bit of difference, but at least I’ve said my piece.

Axiom142

Mick Wenlock
29th December 2009, 10:19 PM
M&M likely have some major dirt on DM, maybe something that could send him to prison. Let's wait and see what if anything they told John Sweeney while in London. Marty likes dribbling things out bit by bit, like the Paul Haggis letter he serialized into three parts, only revealing the author's name at the end of Part III.

Really? I wouldn't bet the house on that.

First of all - knowledge of a crime, any crime, is not proof of a crime. Rathbun has been out for 5 years and was not very important prior to that so anything he does have would be perilously close to the statute of limitations. AS for Rinder it is far more likely that Miscavige has info on him than the other way round. After all Rinder was busy ordering OSA around. If these two had the means to get DM rounded up and imprisoned, and if they really wanted to get him out - they would have already done so.

If it is criminal indictments, then Sweeney is useless for that purpose. Allegations in a foreign press don't carry much weight in US criminal courts.

Are they likely to have embarrassing information? Probably, but that cuts two ways and neither of them have been noticeable for the courage to speak out.

Axiom142
29th December 2009, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I've seen the 'rumor' and my impression is that it's one Marty finds acceptable. And, it's far better to have an unsupported rumor making the rounds than to personally speak the lie.

I can see why it would be popular for Marty fans too. But, in fact, beyond a couple of informal meetings with local London 'tech supporters' (sorry Ax) we know nothing about the London trip or why Marty *and* Mike would undertake it.

Sweeney? No; I doubt it.

Zinj

Human nature being what it is, rumours will always appear to fill a vacuum, and you are right to not jump to conclusions Zinj.

But, as important as I like to think I am (:melodramatic:), Marty Rathbun didn’t come over to the UK just to meet me or any other defectors from the CoS. Clearly he wants to encourage people to stop supporting the cult of Scientology and there do appear to be happenings in that area, but the main purpose was media related.

Unfortunately, he does not have control over when things happen and until that time, keeping cards close to the chest is definitely advisable.

But, I fully expect to hear some very good news soon. :)

Axiom142

Mick Wenlock
29th December 2009, 10:21 PM
as the thread is about Marty, Ax, it is a bit weird to come on and whine about the fact that people are staying on topic on the thread. Why bump the thread? Why not start your own very interesting thread about whatever it is that you have to say?

Axiom142
29th December 2009, 10:30 PM
as the thread is about Marty, Ax, it is a bit weird to come on and whine about the fact that people are staying on topic on the thread. Why bump the thread? Why not start your own very interesting thread about whatever it is that you have to say?

Mick, you are misrepresenting my position. If you don’t mind me saying so, this is a very poor way of conducting a debate.

I was clearly not ‘whining’ about the thread remaining on topic.

I was merely expressing my frustration with the obsession with what Marty Rathbun is doing / not doing / should be doing / said / not said. And I think you know that.

We’ve had several threads all on this subject very recently. I can’t see the point in going over the same ground time and time again. Surely there are other things more worthy of our time right now?

Axiom142

Dulloldfart
29th December 2009, 10:55 PM
We’ve had several threads all on this subject very recently. I can’t see the point in going over the same ground time and time again. Surely there are other things more worthy of our time right now?


Probably not. I was moaning about all the threads concerning him, but the fact is over the past few days I've found those threads more interesting than the non-Rathbun ones. There was the kerfuffle over admiring Lise O'Kane, then all the fun over the did he/didn't he pretend to hack his own blog. Nothing else has come close recently, in my opinion anyway. I would be happier for rich non-MR stuff to appear, but. . . .

Paul

Voltaire's Child
29th December 2009, 10:58 PM
I see both sides of the debate here. I think there sometimes is too much Marty witch hunting and hysteria. But as far as anything that's occurring Marty-wise that's NEW, it's probably worth discussing.

Group hug, everyone!

Zinjifar
29th December 2009, 11:24 PM
There is no 'witch-hunt'. Marty is demonstrably putting eye of newt in his koolaid.

Zinj

nozeno
30th December 2009, 12:13 AM
Marty's in there.


http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/O71XV9/1262089229446.gif?t=1262128259

Terril park
30th December 2009, 12:31 AM
Wow.

Now that's just not good information, it is fantastic! That gives the flavor of what was going on up there. And it is good to read these sorts of responses that give a true concept of what was going on.

And when informaiton like this gets coupled with other pieces here and there it all becomes very clear and apparent.

I am glad I posted this just to read that response from bts2. Great stuff.

Aaron

Hi Aaron, BTs for free,

Having met Marty I have a different take.

Jeez! Can we get any reconciliation here!

Marty I believe commented on Aaron being on the Fwinds undercover.

Marty is quite definitely a techie.

He commented favourably to my comments re self elected FPRD. Like
actual, postulates? Yeah, tech stuff.

How can you guys work together as opposed to bashing each other?

rhill
30th December 2009, 12:39 AM
Look, I know this forum is about the free exchange of ideas regarding Scientology, but am I the only one who is getting a bit fed up with all this endless discussion about Marty Rathbun?

Browsers are convenient like this, you click on what you care, and don't click on what you don't care.


Why am I fed up? Because all this diverts attention away from the source problem.

I suspect you meant your perception of the "source problem." Many are of the view that LRH policies/dictates/doctrines are the basis of the larger problem, David Miscavige (and his followers) being a (rather important) element in the larger problem. Being apologetics about Hubbard writings is also very much part of the problem.


I’m sure that OSA and the minions of Miscavige will be very pleased to see Marty Rathbun being publicly castigated. The last thing they want is for all the opponents of their nasty little cult to be working together. One of the most common tactics is to create dissention and divisions amongst the critics of the CoS.

I never cared much about Miscavige's state of mind before expressing an opinion. I don't think I will start today. I sure hope nobody else mind either.


And, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can state with total certainly exactly what another person’s intentions are, what they are thinking and even know exactly what ‘crimes’ that person has committed, even though they have never even met the person being discussed.

I agree with you here, and I have to say Marty Rathbun has been pretty amazing on that count. His "The Great Middle Path Redux" was pretty clear: If you dare point out at LRH as the source of the abuses and wrongdoings in Scientology, you are filled with "hate," and in cahoot with David Miscavige -- as per Marty Rathbun.


I am sure that Marty Rathbun is not at all proud of many of the things he did in the past. And, perhaps he has not been totally open and honest about some of these things. But maybe he is still on a personal journey and hasn’t arrived at his final destination yet?

So we should keep our opinion to ourself until someone else decide for all others when to express an opinion of what Marty Rathbun says on his blog? What if he never arrives at his final destination (whatever it is)?


I agree that several of the contributors to Marty Rathbun’s blog appear to still be in the thrall of Hubbard’s indoctrination. But, so what? I didn’t suddenly wake up and say “Hey, you know what? I’ve just realised that I’ve been conned and lied to and everything that I thought I knew from studying Scientology over the past 20 years is all complete bollocks and I’ve totally changed my view of the world!”

My viewpoint is very different now than when I left the ‘church’ two years ago and I have no doubt that I will have changed again in another two years time. We might think that there are many deluded people who have left the CoS but still cling to the dream of ‘Total Freedom’, but let’s give them a break, eh? At least they have started to wake up and take a look at the actual situation.

When someone utter an opinion publicly, you can't reasonably expect to not have ongoing scrutiny and expression of counter opinions. This is how the world outside LRH self-serving worldview. What is happening here is expected. Suggesting otherwise ("a break"?) baffles me. Look how strange the resulting scenario of what you seem to suggest: "Oh, Marty Rathbun made some very questionable statements on his blog, but I won't comment on it, and I will wait x years before doing so, because then maybe he will have changed by then [or not]"


The people that I really despise are those such as Leserve, Mithoff, Jentzsch, Starkey and Yager, et al. They must know that something is very wrong and yet when given a chance to do something about it, they just tamely submit to Miscavige’s will and sign some stupid statement saying that all is rosy in the garden of hell.

So when one of them blow and start being apologetics about David Miscavige (rather than LRH,) will it also be desirable to not scrutinize/counter their statements until some arbitrary future point in time? Or do this apply only to those being apologetic toward LRH?


If someone has an opinion – fine. But please let’s not pretend it is fact. bts2free wrote a very good post with some important data, referencing his own observations. If we really want to take on the CoS and stop their abuses, we need to be able to provide hard evidence to back up any accusations, otherwise the CoS with it’s huge legal resources will just chew us up.

I read here once in a while, and it seems for the most part people are often careful to prefix their speculative statements with "My impression," "It seems to me," etc. What you could do is point out specifically when you consider someone misrepresents an opinion as fact.

Here is a specific fact: LRH mandated the use of "noisy investigations" against those who oppose the Church of Scientology. Therefore, David Miscavige was following LRH teachings when he allegedly sent PIs after Rathbun/Rinder in England. See how MR deals with this fact.

My opinion is that it is very welcomed that Marty Rathbun questionable statements are countered, as he clearly do not intend to allow all point of views at his place. Luckily, some will drift here and be exposed to other angles, something to encourage rather than discourage.

Terril park
30th December 2009, 12:44 AM
Look, I know this forum is about the free exchange of ideas regarding Scientology, but am I the only one who is getting a bit fed up with all this endless discussion about Marty Rathbun?

Why am I fed up? Because all this diverts attention away from the real problem. I’m sure that OSA and the minions of Miscavige will be very pleased to see Marty Rathbun being publicly castigated. The last thing they want is for all the opponents of their nasty little cult to be working together. One of the most common tactics is to create dissention and divisions amongst the critics of the CoS.

And, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can state with total certainly exactly what another person’s intentions are, what they are thinking and even know exactly what ‘crimes’ that person has committed, even though they have never even met the person being discussed. I am sure that Marty Rathbun is not at all proud of many of the things he did in the past. And, perhaps he has not been totally open and honest about some of these things. But maybe he is still on a personal journey and hasn’t arrived at his final destination yet?

If I had personally been on the receiving end, I would probably have a different opinion, but I’m more interested in what he can do now.

I agree that several of the contributors to Marty Rathbun’s blog appear to still be in the thrall of Hubbard’s indoctrination. But, so what? I didn’t suddenly wake up and say “Hey, you know what? I’ve just realised that I’ve been conned and lied to and everything that I thought I knew from studying Scientology over the past 20 years is all complete bollocks and I’ve totally changed my view of the world!”

My viewpoint is very different now than when I left the ‘church’ two years ago and I have no doubt that I will have changed again in another two years time. We might think that there are many deluded people who have left the CoS but still cling to the dream of ‘Total Freedom’, but let’s give them a break, eh? At least they have started to wake up and take a look at the actual situation.

The people that I really despise are those such as Leserve, Mithoff, Jentzsch, Starkey and Yager, et al. They must know that something is very wrong and yet when given a chance to do something about it, they just tamely submit to Miscavige’s will and sign some stupid statement saying that all is rosy in the garden of hell.

If someone has an opinion – fine. But please let’s not pretend it is fact. bts2free wrote a very good post with some important data, referencing his own observations. If we really want to take on the CoS and stop their abuses, we need to be able to provide hard evidence to back up any accusations, otherwise the CoS with it’s huge legal resources will just chew us up.

I don’t suppose what I say will make the slightest bit of difference, but at least I’ve said my piece.

Axiom142

You go Ax. :)

nozeno
30th December 2009, 12:46 AM
You go Ax. :)

Yeah but he's gonna die alone and in pain like Marty.

Axiom142
30th December 2009, 12:47 AM
:welcome:

Welcome Rhill.

Thank you for your comments, but I’m afraid that you have me at a disadvantage as I don't know you or your position.

Are you an ‘Ex’ or an informed ‘outsider’?

Axiom142

Zinjifar
30th December 2009, 12:51 AM
If it's our good old rhill from ARS, he's pretty much an open book :)

Sane and competent critic with little personal axe to grind

Hi Ray!

Zinj

Axiom142
30th December 2009, 12:53 AM
If it's our good old rhill from ARS, he's pretty much an open book :)

Sane and competent critic with little personal axe to grind

Zinj

Pointed comment?

Ax

Zinjifar
30th December 2009, 12:55 AM
Pointed comment?

Ax

nah :)

But, he won't grind you axey :) He's one of the good guys

Zinj

rhill
30th December 2009, 12:55 AM
:welcome:

Welcome Rhill.

Thank you for your comments, but I’m afraid that you have me at a disadvantage as I don't know you or your position.

Are you an ‘Ex’ or an informed ‘outsider’?

Axiom142

I tend to think that shouldn't matter -- I commented on what you wrote, with no knowledge (or concerns, with all due respect) about your position.

degraded being
30th December 2009, 01:31 AM
M&M likely have some major dirt on DM, maybe something that could send him to prison. Let's wait and see what if anything they told John Sweeney while in London. Marty likes dribbling things out bit by bit, like the Paul Haggis letter he serialized into three parts, only revealing the author's name at the end of Part III.

The three of them all have dirt on each other AFAIK.
Marty sticks to the *safe* crime of DM not KSW.
That's a cult crime. The real crimes of DM were, AFAIK,
condoned by ratty, or carried out by ratty, and some of them very likely planned by ratty.

Note to fluff: spelling *mistakes* on ratty's name, please derail thread.

degraded being
30th December 2009, 01:33 AM
Hi Aaron, BTs for free,

Having met Marty I have a different take.

Jeez! Can we get any reconciliation here!

Marty I believe commented on Aaron being on the Fwinds undercover.

Marty is quite definitely a techie.

He commented favourably to my comments re self elected FPRD. Like
actual, postulates? Yeah, tech stuff.

How can you guys work together as opposed to bashing each other?

I just want everyone to be friends.:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::b igcry::bigcry:

Axiom142
30th December 2009, 01:44 AM
I suspect you meant your perception of the "source problem." Many are of the view that LRH policies/dictates/doctrines are the basis of the larger problem, David Miscavige (and his followers) being a (rather important) element in the larger problem. Being apologetics about Hubbard writings is also very much part of the problem.

You changed what I said. I said “real problem”. I don’t consider Marty Rathbun to be the problem, he says he wants to be part of the solution, and I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously you can call Hubbard the source of the problem as he came up with the subject in the first place and dictated the policies to be followed. But he isn’t here anymore so I can’t take him to task on this. My immediate concern is with the abuses being perpetrated right now by the CoS. They have to be stopped as a matter of urgency.


I never cared much about Miscavige's state of mind before expressing an opinion. I don't think I will start today. I sure hope nobody else mind either.

I’m not bothered about DM’s state of mind either, but I do care if in-fighting and bickering forwards the purpose of his minions.


I agree with you here, and I have to say Marty Rathbun has been pretty amazing on that count. His "The Great Middle Path Redux" was pretty clear: If you dare point out at LRH as the source of the abuses and wrongdoings in Scientology, you are filled with "hate," and in cahoot with David Miscavige -- as per Marty Rathbun.

From what I can tell, Rathbun doesn’t worship Hubbard. He was very clear about this to me and Terril. He accepts that Hubbard made up a load of stuff about himself and was very flawed. But, he still respects the ‘Tech’ and wants to use it to help others.

I might not agree with him on this, but I respect his right to believe what he wants.



So we should keep our opinion to ourself until someone else decide for all others when to express an opinion of what Marty Rathbun says on his blog? What if he never arrives at his final destination (whatever it is)?

I never said that anyone should not express an opinion. But equally, I don’t think we should be condemning anyone without giving them a chance to make amends.

Well, I could say that wherever he winds up is his final destination, but in any case, it is the journey that is important.



When someone utter an opinion publicly, you can't reasonably expect to not have ongoing scrutiny and expression of counter opinions. This is how the world outside LRH self-serving worldview. What is happening here is expected. Suggesting otherwise ("a break"?) baffles me. Look how strange the resulting scenario of what you seem to suggest: "Oh, Marty Rathbun made some very questionable statements on his blog, but I won't comment on it, and I will wait x years before doing so, because then maybe he will have changed by then [or not]"

Scrutiny and free expression of counter opinions are something that I believe very strongly in. And, giving people a chance to recover from being in a mind-bending cult before jumping down their throats and telling them how stupid they are for believing something different seems to be a reasonable way to behave as well.

Doesn’t compassion and understanding have a place here?



So when one of them blow and start being apologetics about David Miscavige (rather than LRH,) will it also be desirable to not scrutinize/counter their statements until some arbitrary future point in time? Or do this apply only to those being apologetic toward LRH?

Not arbitrary time, but wouldn’t you want a reasonable period of time to recover? Getting out is at least a step in the right direction, so I’d give them credit for that. It’s when they do nothing that I get really pissed off.

All of senior management (ex or otherwise) have a lot of apologising and explaining to do. Mostly to their own members (ex or otherwise) for having deceived them when they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Rathbun and Rinder have at least started the process of making up for what they did.


I read here once in a while, and it seems for the most part people are often careful to prefix their speculative statements with "My impression," "It seems to me," etc. What you could do is point out specifically when you consider someone misrepresents an opinion as fact.

Well, I suppose that I could go and add up all the different types of statements, but I really don’t have the time. I have seen a large number of statements of the type: “Marty does / did / thinks this …”, when clearly the person is not in a position to know this at all.


Here is a specific fact: LRH mandated the use of "noisy investigations" against those who oppose the Church of Scientology. Therefore, David Miscavige was following LRH teachings when he allegedly sent PIs after Rathbun/Rinder in England. See how MR deals with this fact.

My opinion is that it is very welcomed that Marty Rathbun questionable statements are countered, as he clearly do not intend to allow all point of views at his place. Luckily, some will drift here and be exposed to other angles, something to encourage rather than discourage.

It is one thing to question, it is another to totally oppose. Marty Rathbun has the knowledge and ability to cause a lot of damage to the CoS. I will support him while he is doing this. But, this doesn’t mean that I won’t take him to task over things that he has said or done that I don’t agree with.

When I met him recently, I did just that.

Are you prepared to actually meet with him and have a face-to-face discussion and get to know him, or just throw rocks from a distance?

Axiom142

Terril park
30th December 2009, 02:19 AM
"Rathbun and Rinder have at least started the process of making up for what they did."

With you on all you've said Ax.

You're one cool dude. :)

bts2free
30th December 2009, 02:21 AM
Hi Aaron, BTs for free,

Having met Marty I have a different take.

Jeez! Can we get any reconciliation here!

Marty I believe commented on Aaron being on the Fwinds undercover.

Marty is quite definitely a techie.

He commented favourably to my comments re self elected FPRD. Like
actual, postulates? Yeah, tech stuff.

How can you guys work together as opposed to bashing each other?

Hey Terril,

You sound like a very nice person and probably get along with just about anyone. I'm the same way in a lot of ways, however, when it comes to Scientology, it's a whole other realm. People who have never been harmed by this Cult, or haven't actually witnessed how dangerous it actually is, won't understand fully. One may have sympathy or empathy for its victims, but without the actual experience, it's probably more like a fire cracker rather than a nuclear blast.

I'm not here to bash anyone. And I don't speak for Aaron, but I don't see that he's bashing anyone either. What we do have in common is that we both worked with or near Marty in the Sea Org, and I happened to work with him and his personal staff at the Int base for quite some time. I'm only providing information, and I'm not trying to peddle anything. I'm not even selling wins or "freedom froms." Just information. There have been times when I've let my emotions get the best of me, but hey, this isn't Scientology and HE&R is allowed in the wog world. After all, this is the (EX) Scientologist Message Board. And when I have an opinion, I try my best to state that it's an opinion rather than fact, or that I got something from another source.

I'm not going to speculate on what I think Marty is doing and why he's saying a bunch of the things he says, or doesn't say for that matter. A lot of what he's doing and saying is obvious, especially for those who have really seen what this man is and has been capable of doing to other people. He's been at the helm of some really twisted shit.

So Terril, you go have a cup of tea with the guy and think he's the cat's meow. But then, you were never there to witness the whole backstory. Even L. Ron Hubbard had a charming side to him. Why do you think most of us bought all of his junk? Well, most of us only saw that side of him through Church PR. How about the side that people like Dart Smohen have written about? Without the Dart Smohen's, Attack's or Armstrong's, we would have never really known.

Your affinity with Marty seems to be that you are both Techies. I too was a Techie, amongst other things. I grew up in Scientology as a child. I did the original Comm Course in the late 70's, I was trained as a Book One Auditor and audited. I read all of the basic books a number of times over, pre new "Basics", SoS even moreso. I even listened to all of the PDC, SHSBC, Phoenix lectures and many other series and congresses. I was trained up to Class IV. Did the Pro TRs Course twice. Did the PTS/SP Course 3 times. Was fully hatted as a Gold MAA, and De-PTSer. Was a 2nd Class Missionaire. Did the courses for OEC Vol 0,1,5,6 and 7. Was also on staff pre Sea Org and was fully hatted as Public Contact Sec for my org.

Does any of that make a difference for me now? Nope.

Once you leave the Scientology aquarium and see the real world on the outside, you realize that the whole time you were in Scientology, you were swimming with sharks. Sharks who had the Tech to enslave you and keep you stuck in the fish bowl to eat you.

Marty just happens to be one of those Great Whites I encountered while in the tank, and I'm just yelling "shark" to some of the swimmers still out in the water. Weather you want to stay in the water is up to you. Weather you believe there's even a shark there is also up to you. Is Marty now a Sunfish? Who knows?

You may have use for Scientology Tech. I don't. I saw it for what it really was when I woke up. I don't see how mind control technology can be used in any way to help people. But, that's just my own opinion.

People who allow themselves to float as hot lunches in the sea shouldn't be surprised if they're eaten. Especially when warned by the people who've lost limbs.

I can't seem to get away from analogies! :melodramatic:

aaron saxton
30th December 2009, 02:21 AM
There mere fact that Marty Rathburn and Mike Rinder have not been closely monitored by US shows we have missed something.

I would not suggest Mike Rinder and Marty Rathburn are the same - they are not and will have different motivations. Different mind sets.

What I find disturbing is that there is no doubt the SO would have engaged tactics to follow Marty and Mike.

Closely.

And has anyone in Anon or ESMB been followng Mike and Marty?

It would lend itself that Marty is up to something. Substantial.

Watching Marty is very important.

It is not a destraction.

It is very important.

One thing is CERTAIN. Marty and Mike ARE TALKING. Perhaps they are talking to a person, perhaps it is a P.C. late at night, perhaps it is media, but THEY ARE TALKING, and we should find out who to.

I know they are talking because I can see Marty has a blog.

And talks.

Thus it means he IS telling.

But we are hearing what he wants in the public domian. So where's the rest of it that he has been talking about, it is somehwere out there, now.

And we need a heads up.

Gottabrain
30th December 2009, 02:33 AM
[QUOTE=Axiom142;352602]And, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can state with total certainly exactly what another person’s intentions are, what they are thinking and even know exactly what ‘crimes’ that person has committed, even though they have never even met the person being discussed. I am sure that Marty Rathbun is not at all proud of many of the things he did in the past. And, perhaps he has not been totally open and honest about some of these things. But maybe he is still on a personal journey and hasn’t arrived at his final destination yet?

If I had personally been on the receiving end, I would probably have a different opinion, but I’m more interested in what he can do now.

I agree that several of the contributors to Marty Rathbun’s blog appear to still be in the thrall of Hubbard’s indoctrination. But, so what? I didn’t suddenly wake up and say “Hey, you know what? I’ve just realised that I’ve been conned and lied to and everything that I thought I knew from studying Scientology over the past 20 years is all complete bollocks and I’ve totally changed my view of the world!”

My viewpoint is very different now than when I left the ‘church’ two years ago and I have no doubt that I will have changed again in another two years time. We might think that there are many deluded people who have left the CoS but still cling to the dream of ‘Total Freedom’, but let’s give them a break, eh? At least they have started to wake up and take a look at the actual situation.

Hi Axiom142 and Terril,

Assuming that Marty has simply not come to terms with the full truth yet, who will correct him? Who has the communication line with him, the balls and the respect of Marty Rathbun to sit down with him, provide him with some documentation and set him straight?

It seems to me one or both of you just may have his ear or know who does.

Marty has always answered to SOMEone before. Perhaps it isn't completely out of the question.

There is, however, a certain personality type that doesn't ever believe it is in need of correction, that believes lying and misleading others are okay and the "end justifies the means". Is Marty Rathbun that personality type? I don't know. I've never met him or spoken to him personally. But I see certain characteristics exhibited in his news blog -similar characteristics to Elron's own, that indicate this is possible.

The real test is "Is Marty Rathbun correctable"? Does he consider anyone else at least an equal? Does he see himself as the final authority? Prisons are loaded with criminals who are there because they saw themselves as the final authority. It is the single most common characteristic of criminals.

Inhibiting free discussion or full disclosure of facts on his website are not good signs.

If Marty only sees Elron as above him in authority, then you two and others who converse well enough with the tech, who have a welcome foot in his camp without being part of it, can point out discrepancies in the tech and possibly get through to him. By your own statement, Axiom142, you believe Marty is still growing and changing. I want you to be right. I hope you are right. But if you are right, then do something about it.

You say you don't want us fighting as different factions within ourselves? I don't see exscn.net is the problem. I've posted some very unpopular things and sometimes been bashed, so have others. But we all still post, don't we? We don't all like each other, we all don't agree on every point. But nobody here has been banned. You can still post here. We all can, even Scilos.

So get Marty steered in the right direction, then. He needs it.

TalleyWhacker
30th December 2009, 02:58 AM
Hey Terril,

You sound like a very nice person and probably get along with just about anyone. I'm the same way in a lot of ways, however, when it comes to Scientology, it's a whole other realm. People who have never been harmed by this Cult, or haven't actually witnessed how dangerous it actually is, won't understand fully. One may have sympathy or empathy for its victims, but without the actual experience, it's probably more like a fire cracker rather than a nuclear blast.

I'm not here to bash anyone. And I don't speak for Aaron, but I don't see that he's bashing anyone either. What we do have in common is that we both worked with or near Marty in the Sea Org, and I happened to work with him and his personal staff at the Int base for quite some time. I'm only providing information, and I'm not trying to peddle anything. I'm not even selling wins or "freedom froms." Just information. There have been times when I've let my emotions get the best of me, but hey, this isn't Scientology and HE&R is allowed in the wog world. After all, this is the (EX) Scientologist Message Board. And when I have an opinion, I try my best to state that it's an opinion rather than fact, or that I got something from another source.

I'm not going to speculate on what I think Marty is doing and why he's saying a bunch of the things he says, or doesn't say for that matter. A lot of what he's doing and saying is obvious, especially for those who have really seen what this man is and has been capable of doing to other people. He's been at the helm of some really twisted shit.

So Terril, you go have a cup of tea with the guy and think he's the cat's meow. But then, you were never there to witness the whole backstory. Even L. Ron Hubbard had a charming side to him. Why do you think most of us bought all of his junk? Well, most of us only saw that side of him through Church PR. How about the side that people like Dart Smohen have written about? Without the Dart Smohen's, Attack's or Armstrong's, we would have never really known.

Your affinity with Marty seems to be that you are both Techies. I too was a Techie, amongst other things. I grew up in Scientology as a child. I did the original Comm Course in the late 70's, I was trained as a Book One Auditor and audited. I read all of the basic books a number of times over, pre new "Basics", SoS even moreso. I even listened to all of the PDC, SHSBC, Phoenix lectures and many other series and congresses. I was trained up to Class IV. Did the Pro TRs Course twice. Did the PTS/SP Course 3 times. Was fully hatted as a Gold MAA, and De-PTSer. Was a 2nd Class Missionaire. Did the courses for OEC Vol 0,1,5,6 and 7. Was also on staff pre Sea Org and was fully hatted as Public Contact Sec for my org.

Does any of that make a difference for me now? Nope.

Once you leave the Scientology aquarium and see the real world on the outside, you realize that the whole time you were in Scientology, you were swimming with sharks. Sharks who had the Tech to enslave you and keep you stuck in the fish bowl to eat you.

Marty just happens to be one of those Great Whites I encountered while in the tank, and I'm just yelling "shark" to some of the swimmers still out in the water. Weather you want to stay in the water is up to you. Weather you believe there's even a shark there is also up to you. Is Marty now a Sunfish? Who knows?

You may have use for Scientology Tech. I don't. I saw it for what it really was when I woke up. I don't see how mind control technology can be used in any way to help people. But, that's just my own opinion.

People who allow themselves to float as hot lunches in the sea shouldn't be surprised if they're eaten. Especially when warned by the people who've lost limbs.

I can't seem to get away from analogies! :melodramatic:



And a leapard does not change his spots.
(Sorry, there's another one for ya)

These guys spent their life (get that? THEIR LIFE. They know NOTHING else) serving the C of $ and DM. It's what they know and they shared in the laughter of hyenas when they porked someone.
Change?
Well, sortta.
Pitch a revival tent--you already know what sermons work and how to do the job.
I tend to go with BTS2Free. He has no axe to grind. It makes sense and follows the DM's MO. I mean, now that I think about it, how could I have been so foolish to not see it...can anyone imagine DM sending anyone to a ship in the sunny seas to study so they can get some of what they originally signed on for?
DUH! :duh:
Thank you BTS2Free for clearing it up for me.

HelluvaHoax!
30th December 2009, 03:04 AM
In the CON GAME OLYMPICS, sponsored by the Church of Scientology, there are many winners.

Ron Hubbard won the Gold Medal every year from 1950-1986 in every category.

Miscavige won at least one Gold Medal every year since then, especially in the weightlifting category formerly known as the Clean & Jerk. In CoS Olympics it's known as the Clear & Jerk, where you "clear thetans" and then jerk them around for the rest of their lives,making them pay dearly with their time, sanity and money for.....well....nothing. (Note: The "nothing" aka Total Freedom, aka "Static" can be verified by going online and inspecting the person's zero bank account balance) .

Marty has diligently been in training for many years in order to compete. He believes he is ready now.

Let's wish him well and hope he brings home the Gold in his specialty event....

HUMBLE WARRIOR-MESSIAH FREESTYLE: Competitor routines are judged on their ability to distract & bilk scientology believers using re-energized, factory-reconditioned LRH bromides, whilst covertly nullifying anyone who doesn't feel the rapture.

Upon accepting the Gold Medal, Marty will point and look skyward. Then, with a dedicated celestial glare he will salute the heavens above. True believers will laugh and weep, believing he is selflessly giving all praise to LRH in outer space.

However, things are not always what they appear. Although the competition is over, Marty is already in training for the next Olympics. So, that salute is simply an encore performance from his winning routine.

Panda Termint
30th December 2009, 03:37 AM
:lol: Good one, HH! Thank you too, bts2free, that was an excellent post! :goodposting:

Opter
30th December 2009, 03:39 AM
Hey Terril,

You sound like a very nice person and probably get along with just about anyone. I'm the same way in a lot of ways, however, when it comes to Scientology, it's a whole other realm. People who have never been harmed by this Cult, or haven't actually witnessed how dangerous it actually is, won't understand fully. One may have sympathy or empathy for its victims, but without the actual experience, it's probably more like a fire cracker rather than a nuclear blast.

I'm not here to bash anyone. And I don't speak for Aaron, but I don't see that he's bashing anyone either. What we do have in common is that we both worked with or near Marty in the Sea Org, and I happened to work with him and his personal staff at the Int base for quite some time. I'm only providing information, and I'm not trying to peddle anything. I'm not even selling wins or "freedom froms." Just information. There have been times when I've let my emotions get the best of me, but hey, this isn't Scientology and HE&R is allowed in the wog world. After all, this is the (EX) Scientologist Message Board. And when I have an opinion, I try my best to state that it's an opinion rather than fact, or that I got something from another source.

I'm not going to speculate on what I think Marty is doing and why he's saying a bunch of the things he says, or doesn't say for that matter. A lot of what he's doing and saying is obvious, especially for those who have really seen what this man is and has been capable of doing to other people. He's been at the helm of some really twisted shit.

So Terril, you go have a cup of tea with the guy and think he's the cat's meow. But then, you were never there to witness the whole backstory. Even L. Ron Hubbard had a charming side to him. Why do you think most of us bought all of his junk? Well, most of us only saw that side of him through Church PR. How about the side that people like Dart Smohen have written about? Without the Dart Smohen's, Attack's or Armstrong's, we would have never really known.

Your affinity with Marty seems to be that you are both Techies. I too was a Techie, amongst other things. I grew up in Scientology as a child. I did the original Comm Course in the late 70's, I was trained as a Book One Auditor and audited. I read all of the basic books a number of times over, pre new "Basics", SoS even moreso. I even listened to all of the PDC, SHSBC, Phoenix lectures and many other series and congresses. I was trained up to Class IV. Did the Pro TRs Course twice. Did the PTS/SP Course 3 times. Was fully hatted as a Gold MAA, and De-PTSer. Was a 2nd Class Missionaire. Did the courses for OEC Vol 0,1,5,6 and 7. Was also on staff pre Sea Org and was fully hatted as Public Contact Sec for my org.

Does any of that make a difference for me now? Nope.

Once you leave the Scientology aquarium and see the real world on the outside, you realize that the whole time you were in Scientology, you were swimming with sharks. Sharks who had the Tech to enslave you and keep you stuck in the fish bowl to eat you.

Marty just happens to be one of those Great Whites I encountered while in the tank, and I'm just yelling "shark" to some of the swimmers still out in the water. Weather you want to stay in the water is up to you. Weather you believe there's even a shark there is also up to you. Is Marty now a Sunfish? Who knows?

You may have use for Scientology Tech. I don't. I saw it for what it really was when I woke up. I don't see how mind control technology can be used in any way to help people. But, that's just my own opinion.

People who allow themselves to float as hot lunches in the sea shouldn't be surprised if they're eaten. Especially when warned by the people who've lost limbs.

I can't seem to get away from analogies! :melodramatic:



Excellent post!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thum bsup::thumbsup:

Opter

nowout
30th December 2009, 03:58 AM
I just found out Marty spoke of his trip to the Freewinds and gave his reasons for it.

In March 1995, when I was known as Aaron Tweddell, I went to the ship on a confidential mission. I did not go as an SO member. Although I was in the Sea Org.

I can tell you that Marty had blown the Sea Org, and had been recovered. However, because his blow was actually not just about doubts on the Sea Org, but on Scientology, he was taken to the ship.

His handler was the number 2 in charge - the Inspector General, Greg Wilhere.

I can tell you that he had his ass sec checked to high heaven, and he wasn't there because the tech was better - what is wrong with Int Base? Would you really beleive a course supervisor on the Freewinds is somehow better than the FLB or up at Int where DM goes on course personally? Puleeeeeaze.

He was there also because he was a weak link for the SO and they didn't want him running aorund the United States being suppeoned.

He would make you beleive he was on the Freewinds getting his new appreciation of LRH tech - when in fact he was being drilled like a piece of wood by Greg Wilhere on the ship and kept under lock and key.

Anyone on the ship in early 1995 will tell you the same thing if they had any kind of clearance.

People out fo the SO who are active against the church can confirm I was on the Ship, such as laura (DT2000) who was involved in me being sent to the Ship in the first place.

Aaron Saxton (Tweddell)


This version of the story seems to paint a different picture than Aaron's Original Video #5 (of 7) Transcript:


..."Aaron: And now they're out. What does it tell you? Not only did they not buy it, they don't want to buy it any more. They know what they did. They helped create that, and they should be sorry for it. And they should do something about it. And standing in front of a camera saying "David Miscavige slapped me on the wrist" - it's not a confession of what you did, Marty Rathbun, sitting on that ship.

Carmel: What do you mean, sitting on the ship?

Aaron: Eating, eating, eating a fuck- eating five-star meals on a ship by a five-star French chef? In the Caribbean? Oh, you poor soul! I feel so sorry for you that you get your own private cabin, while the other Sea Org members are stacked three high in rooms small enough for one human being, and we stack 'em nine high in there. And you want ME to feel sorry for YOU because you got slapped? You, you deserve that and a lot more, pal, you know. Because by the end of the day, you were happy to just accept your lot. You thought you had some inalienable right to be better than the other human beings. And you're not talking about that, Mr. Rathbun. You're not talking about the fact that you had a private steward, that came to your table and grovelled and asked you what you wanted to eat, and got it for you. You're not talking about the fact that you had chauffeurs. These are luxuries, even for regular human beings. And the regular Sea Org member looks upon you as a god. And you abused your privilege. You know, these guys give up fourteen hours of their life every day and go sometimes for years without a single day off, and they take one step, one foot wrong and, and they're treated like garbage. And then if they dare leave, they're called a 'degraded being' by Ron Hubbard himself. He told us to call them 'degraded beings'. "

From: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=334443&postcount=5

Who's Lying with the changed stories? Being kept under lock and key sure is different than having a private steward???

degraded being
30th December 2009, 04:17 AM
Is ESMB creating so much heat that Marty has been as-ised?

Quote:
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Cherished
30th December 2009, 04:22 AM
The real test is "Is Marty Rathbun correctable"? Does he consider anyone else at least an equal? Does he see himself as the final authority? Prisons are loaded with criminals who are there because they saw themselves as the final authority. It is the single most common characteristic of criminals.

Inhibiting free discussion or full disclosure of facts on his website are not good signs.

If Marty only sees Elron as above him in authority, then you two and others who converse well enough with the tech, who have a welcome foot in his camp without being part of it, can point out discrepancies in the tech and possibly get through to him. By your own statement, Axiom142, you believe Marty is still growing and changing. I want you to be right. I hope you are right. But if you are right, then do something about it.

This is insightful, Gottabrain. Another word for "correctable" might be "teachable". A person who is teachable is someone you can work with, because they are not dogmatic.

I see mixed signals from Marty. That doesn't surprise me, because pride is something that many of us struggle with and some of us consciously seek to change - meaning we can be inconsistent, particularly when under pressure or when a "button" gets pressed.

It's easy for me to "trust" Marty because I have little or nothing to lose, and no history of having been wounded by him or the CoS that can be reopened at my expense. In other words, I respect that for some people it is important that for their own well-being they not trust. I have the luxury of being able to.

I believe that Marty is doing a great deal behind the scenes that we don't yet know about, but some of which will come to light publicly and spectacularly - remember the St Pete Times?

I, like many here, am concerned at some of what Marty writes, particularly in his comments to people who disagree. There are ominous signs there. Others talk about damage he is doing. If so, then we must do what we can to ameliorate that damage, so far as we are able. I have myself been very angry at Marty (both for how he addresses people and for his post about the Aussies, in particular). He's not perfect. But nor am I.

Ultimately, I'm an optimist and I have seen people on the journey from A to B before. I will work with people so long as they are on that journey away from A (the monster) and toward B (the saint). They may never get to B, but I respect the heart of their journey.

Now, some of you have seen the monster, and I haven't. It is more real to you and serves as a warning to beware. I respect that. I'm just not willing to assume that the monster is static at point A. I believe he's on the path.

As far as "guiding" Marty goes - the man has 1000 voices in his ear. If anyone is to cut through the "noise", then earning his trust seems key, to me. So, most of us won't be able to cut through. If you want to, then you must be trustworthy and show that.

My 2 cents.

Gottabrain
30th December 2009, 04:23 AM
A great post on another thread and forum from JohnnyRUClear:

Re: Think Marty Rathbun and LRH are great?

Hey OSA:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." So, who/what checks Miscavige's power?

"Now, to compound the comedy"
--M. Rathbun

LOL!!!:thumbsup:

Cherished
30th December 2009, 04:26 AM
Who's Lying with the changed stories? Being kept under lock and key sure is different than having a private steward???

You're assuming that Marty was only ever on the ship for one purpose and that Aaron was specifically addressing the time after Marty was recovered.

Smurf
30th December 2009, 04:50 AM
Well as much as I would love to go through Marty's statements and find more, there really is no need. The guy is a walking contradiction and he will not engage with me directly on any level, so there really is no point.

Someone told me what he said and I had to correct it. Goodness me, if anyone just looks at his blog the outnesses are so flagrant that it defies beleief. It is no wonder more and more people each day are beginning to see his true colors. Aaron

Where'd he go??

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

Blue Spirit
30th December 2009, 04:50 AM
It seems that Marty is using his PR skills to bring exes and those newly out into his own fold. Scientology remains the same, but the "acting chief" is much more "benevolent".

Maybe this is the first baby step for many who are newly out, but it is the first step forward that will lead them to many steps backwards. I agree that those who are newly out will wake up much more quickly if they weren't sucked into Marty's quest.

This yellow brick road looks more and more likely that it is leading to a "new and improved" Co$ with a new leader at the helm. The refraction of Marty's light may come to prove that it is bending in the direction of keeping the church and ALL of it's tenets (good and bad) alive.

And that is something I am not willing to be a part of. So let's keep the truth out there. It may come to pass that Marty won't achieve his ideal scene now or in the not-to-distant future.

-PWC

My viewpoint aligns with yours here. :thumbsup:

HelluvaHoax!
30th December 2009, 04:55 AM
Is ESMB creating so much heat that Marty has been as-ised?
Not as-ised.

But, instead, Rathbun is remaining FABIAN, as in elusive. This is (per taped lecture) Ron's self-confessed 'wholetrack successful action' when explaining why he constantly moved around on the seas.

Might be a slight problem with which definition Rathbun is using.

What Hubbard meant by Fabian:
Quintus Fabius Maximus (275–203 b.c.) Roman statesman and general: defeated Hannibal's army by harassment without risking a pitched battle.
Fabian: (Definition 1) Seeking victory by delay and harassment rather than by a decisive battle as in the manner of Fabius Maximus: Fabian policy.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/9bb182551e4bd520_landing

What Rathbun means by Fabian:
Fabiano Anthony Forte (1943 - )Philadelphia pop idol, better known as Fabian, wowed audiences in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Fabian: (Definition 2) A celebrity, rock-star and idol playing upbeat, mesmerizing pop tunes that appeal to romantic teeny-boppers, children & immature adults, inducing them in Pied-Piper fashion to follow him anywhere.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5179fa024ddf91ef_landing

Smurf
30th December 2009, 05:03 AM
He's back up

[urlhttp://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/]

<my editing skills suck>

freethinker
30th December 2009, 06:33 AM
It's clear to see that no matter what the position is, there's a lot of attention on Marty Rathbun

Maybe there should be as much on Mike.

This is an excellant thread with a lot of intelligent commentary.

Personally I don't trust Marty. He hasn't done enough.:goodorbad:

Zinjifar
30th December 2009, 06:39 AM
It's clear to see that no matter what the position is, there's a lot of attention on Marty Rathbun

Maybe there should be as much on Mike.

This is an excellant thread with a lot of intelligent commentary.

Personally I don't trust Marty. He hasn't done enough.:goodorbad:

Mike doesn't talk as much.

Zinj

Good twin
30th December 2009, 06:44 AM
Mike doesn't talk as much.

Zinj

He's not nearly as funny. :no:

Zinjifar
30th December 2009, 06:48 AM
He's not nearly as funny. :no:

If he talked more he'd be funnier.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Zinjifar/rindclwn.gif

Zinj

Cherished
30th December 2009, 07:05 AM
If he talked more he'd be funnier.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Zinjifar/rindclwn.gif

Zinj

He's an Aussie. Leave him alone.

Voltaire's Child
30th December 2009, 07:20 AM
The three of them all have dirt on each other AFAIK.
Marty sticks to the *safe* crime of DM not KSW.
That's a cult crime. The real crimes of DM were, AFAIK,
condoned by ratty, or carried out by ratty, and some of them very likely planned by ratty.

Note to fluff: spelling *mistakes* on ratty's name, please derail thread.

Not such a mistake...he's been told twice. And I wouldn't point fingers about derailing threads, if I were you.

HelluvaHoax!
30th December 2009, 07:39 AM
It's clear to see that no matter what the position is, there's a lot of attention on Marty Rathbun. Maybe there should be as much on Mike.This is an excellant thread with a lot of intelligent commentary. Personally I don't trust Marty. He hasn't done enough.:goodorbad:

Possible reason why Rathbun generates such a high volume of posts....

It's like boxoffice ticket sales for a motion picture. He always stars in a B-Movie in the horror genre replete with implausible scripts and laughable acting. Cheap thrills fill seats! And when it gets too awful to even watch,you can just laugh and jeer and talk back to the screen.

These low budget fright-flicks also have another thing in common--just when you think the movie is over and the monstrous, murderous creature has died......

It's baaaaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!! (and ya gotta figure out how to kill it all over again!)

Not only do the monsters come back, the movie keeps coming back in sequels.

Original Movie: THURSDAY THE 13TH (at 2:00) Written, Directed, Produced & Starring L. Ron Hubbard. The all-powerful monster devours everything and everyone, and the movie just suddenly ends in 1986 when the monster unexpectedly devours itself.

Sequel #2: THE DAY THE STATS STOOD STILL. Well, the original monster is dead, but we pick it up with the birth of Son of Source, David Miscavich, who plays each and every speaking role. Movie boasts a special effects cast of ten million extras, all of whom are enslaved in Act I and inexplicably convinced to dig their own graves in Act II. I am now watching Act III and haven't figured out yet why Miscavige has joined his zombie-slaves and begun digging a hole for himself! (excuse me...gotta get that last refill of popcorn, this flick is getting really weird!)

Sequel #3: DE-GRADES OF WRATHBUN: Set during the Great Tech Depression, the hopeless hero (played by Marty Rathbun) is driven from his parched home by spiritual drought and hardship to find new soil to farm. His journey of discovery takes a surprising detour when Rathbun begins to make his fortune selling crop-growing-water to fellow independent farmers, so that they may retain dignity while reaping the rich fruits of their labor. The movie takes a horrifically dark turn when farmers' crops do not grow and they, themselves, become poisoned by the tainted water. (Sorry, still watching this one and the remaining farmers are jussssst starting to suspect something is not very well at all with Rathbun WellWater!)

Hey what the hell was my point in this post anyways? I can't think about that now, I gotta get back to these movies cuz they are soooo f*cking entertaining!!!

Gadfly
30th December 2009, 08:14 AM
Possible reason why Rathbun generates such a high volume of posts....

It's like boxoffice ticket sales for a motion picture. He always stars in a B-Movie in the horror genre replete with implausible scripts and laughable acting. Cheap thrills fill seats! And when it gets too awful to even watch,you can just laugh and jeer and talk back to the screen.

These low budget fright-flicks also have another thing in common--just when you think the movie is over and the monstrous, murderous creature has died......

It's baaaaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!! (and ya gotta figure out how to kill it all over again!)

Not only do the monsters come back, the movie keeps coming back in sequels.

Original Movie: THURSDAY THE 13TH (at 2:00) Written, Directed, Produced & Starring L. Ron Hubbard. The all-powerful monster devours everything and everyone, and the movie just suddenly ends in 1986 when the monster unexpectedly devours itself.

Sequel #1: THE DAY THE STATS STOOD STILL. Well, the original monster is dead, but we pick it up with the birth of Son of Source, David Miscavich, who plays each and every speaking role. Movie boasts a special effects cast of ten million extras, all of whom are enslaved in Act I and inexplicably convinced to dig their own graves in Act II. I am now watching Act III and haven't figured out yet why Miscavige has joined his zombie-slaves and begun digging a hole for himself! (excuse me...gotta get that last refill of popcorn, this flick is getting really weird!)

Sequel #3: DE-GRADES OF WRATHBUN: Set during the Great Tech Depression, the hopeless hero (played by Marty Rathbun) is driven from his parched home by spiritual drought and hardship to find new soil to farm. His journey of discovery takes a surprising detour when Rathbun begins to make his fortune selling water to fellow independent farmers, so that they may retain dignity while reaping the rich fruits of their labor. The movie takes a horrifically dark turn when farmers' crops do not grow and they, themselves, become poisoned by the tainted water. (Sorry, still watching this one and the remaining farmers are jussssst starting to suspect something not very well at all with Rathbun WellWater!)

Hey what the hell was my point in this post anyways? I can't think about that now, I gotta get back to these movies cuz they are soooo f*cking entertaining!!!

HelluvaHoax,

Personally, I don't pay any attention to Marty, his blog, or what he is doing. I have never read anything of his. BUT, I do check in here to read YOUR hilarious comedic analysis and synopsis about him!

You have an extremely quick & creative mind, just as it seems all good Jokers & Degraders have!!!!!!!!!!&(*%&^ &^T*&^(Y&%)_)_)(_)H(^%^%^&R%#@#$!!!

I for one just absolutely love it. Keep it up! :thumbsup:

HelluvaHoax!
30th December 2009, 08:50 AM
HelluvaHoax,Personally, I don't pay any attention to Marty, his blog, or what he is doing. I have never read anything of his. BUT, I do check in here to read YOUR hilarious comedic analysis and synopsis about him!You have an extremely quick & creative mind, just as it seems all good Jokers & Degraders have!!!!!!!!!!&(*%&^ &^T*&^(Y&%)_)_)(_)H(^%^%^&R%#@#$!!!I for one just absolutely love it. Keep it up! :thumbsup:

Wow, thank you for listening! (to my posts)

In gratitude, may I offer you this aesthetic delight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C42kJWgyKIw

(ooops, you've been RonRolled! :D so solly, could not resist! :D But, seriously THX!)

nowout
30th December 2009, 08:54 AM
You're assuming that Marty was only ever on the ship for one purpose and that Aaron was specifically addressing the time after Marty was recovered.


There is no assumptions here. Aaron went to the ship only once.

Gottabrain
30th December 2009, 09:58 AM
The one point that personally upsets me on Marty's blog is seeing wonderful people leave Scn & the SO only to go back into their SO and Scn valences before they've even had a change to find stability as themselves outside of Scn.

degraded being
30th December 2009, 10:05 AM
Not as-ised.

But, instead, Rathbun is remaining FABIAN, as in elusive. This is (per taped lecture) Ron's self-confessed 'wholetrack successful action' when explaining why he constantly moved around on the seas.

Might be a slight problem with which definition Rathbun is using.

What Hubbard meant by Fabian:
Quintus Fabius Maximus (275–203 b.c.) Roman statesman and general: defeated Hannibal's army by harassment without risking a pitched battle.
Fabian: (Definition 1) Seeking victory by delay and harassment rather than by a decisive battle as in the manner of Fabius Maximus: Fabian policy.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/9bb182551e4bd520_landing

What Rathbun means by Fabian:
Fabiano Anthony Forte (1943 - )Philadelphia pop idol, better known as Fabian, wowed audiences in the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Fabian: (Definition 2) A celebrity, rock-star and idol playing upbeat, mesmerizing pop tunes that appeal to romantic teeny-boppers, children & immature adults, inducing them in Pied-Piper fashion to follow him anywhere.
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5179fa024ddf91ef_landing


"Fabian".....isn't that a beautiful word? Cunning linguists everywhere will be squealing with delight. :)
I'm happy. I do not even need my Kahlil Gibran reading today. Joy. :)

aaron saxton
30th December 2009, 10:11 AM
Hi now out,

You raised some contradictions about my statements.

They are not in contradiction.

When I spoke of the Execs and how they lived, it is true. We are covering a long career in the SO for these execs.

Of course, anyone in ethics trouble gets it differently.

Remember when Marty was on the ship, he was still special. Being looked after by Greg Wilhere comes with perks. If you have Greg as a handler, you get his treatment - the best. Marty may have been ethics bait, but you don't parade an Inspector General around badly - that is just bad PR for RTC.

I am sure Marty did not enjoy the Ship with Greg. But still, Marty never lived like a regular SO guy so any reduction in living standards is "punishment".

Outside of Marty's Ship experience, he lived quite well I assure you, in this there is no question.

Until you have seen the berthing they enjoy and have personally handled their food and luxury expenses, you can't imagine how good it was for them over regular SO.

anonkatie
30th December 2009, 11:52 AM
Aaaron, I think the question was from Cherish, not "Now out"

Balthasar
30th December 2009, 11:58 AM
edit: was off thread, so deleted it

lionheart
30th December 2009, 02:26 PM
The one point that personally upsets me on Marty's blog is seeing wonderful people leave Scn & the SO only to go back into their SO and Scn valences before they've even had a change to find stability as themselves outside of Scn.

It seems to me that what Marty Rathbun is doing is nothing new and such exes have always attracted those still living the scio belief system. Historically the majority of such followers fall off the "bridge to nowhere" eventually.

When people leave, it is very common for them to look to ways to practice scn outside of the CofS. The motives are to help people, make money or both.

When leaving the cult people are often short of non-scio skills and still believe in various slices of the scientology pie. They often look for ways to use the part of scientology they still believe in. We have exes on ESMB who do this.

Historically look at people like Van Voigt, Jack Horner, John Galusha, on up to David Mayo, Capt Bill, Alan Walter, etc and compare them to Marty Rathbun's actions.

They are not so different. Each Ex concentrated on applying the portion of Scn they still believed in and in which they were trained.

Van Vogt, administratively kept a version of Dianetics going with some financial support; Jack Horner, developed and practiced low level scn tech; David Mayo, concentrated on delivering the "standard" Bridge; Capt Bill continued his "upper level research" that he believed he had previously helped Ron with, Alan researched where the tech had gone "wrong" in his Saint Hill GPM days; John Galusha continued researching Creative Processing which he had helped Ron with.

Many ex-admin exes (like Nancy Many) concentrated on applying policy as business advisors and many still do.

What is Marty doing? What did he do when in? - PR/legal handlings to defend Ron's "Bridge" and recovery of blown Scientologists. What is he doing now?

He appears to have discarded the tougher "ethics/justice" actions, while believing they are non-LRH. I knew lots of people with that point of view in the schism of '82.

He doesn't appear to be doing anything new to me. He is trying to continue wearing his hat outside the CofS just like the individuals listed above.

Many, many people leave the cult and still try to wear their hats, believing they have some pearls of wisdom and wanting to help people and to earn some money applying their scn "skills".

It is not always popular to say this, but leaving scientology is a process of letting bits of it go gradually. Some never quite give up their "hats", the programming while in the cult is powerful.

Terril park
30th December 2009, 03:23 PM
Hey Terril,

You sound like a very nice person and probably get along with just about anyone. I'm the same way in a lot of ways, however, when it comes to Scientology, it's a whole other realm. People who have never been harmed by this Cult, or haven't actually witnessed how dangerous it actually is, won't understand fully. One may have sympathy or empathy for its victims, but without the actual experience, it's probably more like a fire cracker rather than a nuclear blast.

I'm not here to bash anyone. And I don't speak for Aaron, but I don't see that he's bashing anyone either. What we do have in common is that we both worked with or near Marty in the Sea Org, and I happened to work with him and his personal staff at the Int base for quite some time. I'm only providing information, and I'm not trying to peddle anything. I'm not even selling wins or "freedom froms." Just information. There have been times when I've let my emotions get the best of me, but hey, this isn't Scientology and HE&R is allowed in the wog world. After all, this is the (EX) Scientologist Message Board. And when I have an opinion, I try my best to state that it's an opinion rather than fact, or that I got something from another source.

I'm not going to speculate on what I think Marty is doing and why he's saying a bunch of the things he says, or doesn't say for that matter. A lot of what he's doing and saying is obvious, especially for those who have really seen what this man is and has been capable of doing to other people. He's been at the helm of some really twisted shit.

So Terril, you go have a cup of tea with the guy and think he's the cat's meow. But then, you were never there to witness the whole backstory. Even L. Ron Hubbard had a charming side to him. Why do you think most of us bought all of his junk? Well, most of us only saw that side of him through Church PR. How about the side that people like Dart Smohen have written about? Without the Dart Smohen's, Attack's or Armstrong's, we would have never really known.

Your affinity with Marty seems to be that you are both Techies. I too was a Techie, amongst other things. I grew up in Scientology as a child. I did the original Comm Course in the late 70's, I was trained as a Book One Auditor and audited. I read all of the basic books a number of times over, pre new "Basics", SoS even moreso. I even listened to all of the PDC, SHSBC, Phoenix lectures and many other series and congresses. I was trained up to Class IV. Did the Pro TRs Course twice. Did the PTS/SP Course 3 times. Was fully hatted as a Gold MAA, and De-PTSer. Was a 2nd Class Missionaire. Did the courses for OEC Vol 0,1,5,6 and 7. Was also on staff pre Sea Org and was fully hatted as Public Contact Sec for my org.

Does any of that make a difference for me now? Nope.

Once you leave the Scientology aquarium and see the real world on the outside, you realize that the whole time you were in Scientology, you were swimming with sharks. Sharks who had the Tech to enslave you and keep you stuck in the fish bowl to eat you.

Marty just happens to be one of those Great Whites I encountered while in the tank, and I'm just yelling "shark" to some of the swimmers still out in the water. Weather you want to stay in the water is up to you. Weather you believe there's even a shark there is also up to you. Is Marty now a Sunfish? Who knows?

You may have use for Scientology Tech. I don't. I saw it for what it really was when I woke up. I don't see how mind control technology can be used in any way to help people. But, that's just my own opinion.

People who allow themselves to float as hot lunches in the sea shouldn't be surprised if they're eaten. Especially when warned by the people who've lost limbs.

I can't seem to get away from analogies! :melodramatic:

When Marty and Mike were in I had far more reason to worry about them.
I've been promoting that you can do the whole bridge outside the COS for
10 years. For some time I thought they would try to attack me in some way, but it never happened, although I know OSA has a file on me.

Now Marty is really just doing what I've been doing, so why should I worry?

One of the good things is that one can find redemption and get second chances, its part of scientology. I got on well with Marty and liked him.
He has stated publically that anyone who has issues with him is welcome to contact him. I know one person who has, Jim Logan, and they are now friends. This may have happened with others also.

Eldon
30th December 2009, 03:39 PM
One of the good things is that one can find redemption and get second chances, its part of scientology. I got on well with Marty and liked him.
He has stated publically that anyone who has issues with him is welcome to contact him. I know one person who has, Jim Logan, and they are now friends. This may have happened with others also.

Terril,
Redemption and second chances are found in every religion, and other places too. Do you know if Jim Logan contacted Marty and unconditionally forgave him before or after the SP Times article about how Marty snatched Annie back into the fold? I don't see Jim as Marty's friend so much as his ardent sycophant. He falls on his knees and fawns every time Marty opens his mouth, which I find ludicrous.

Terril park
30th December 2009, 03:47 PM
Hi Axiom142 and Terril,

Assuming that Marty has simply not come to terms with the full truth yet, who will correct him? Who has the communication line with him, the balls and the respect of Marty Rathbun to sit down with him, provide him with some documentation and set him straight?

It seems to me one or both of you just may have his ear or know who does.

Marty has always answered to SOMEone before. Perhaps it isn't completely out of the question.

There is, however, a certain personality type that doesn't ever believe it is in need of correction, that believes lying and misleading others are okay and the "end justifies the means". Is Marty Rathbun that personality type? I don't know. I've never met him or spoken to him personally. But I see certain characteristics exhibited in his news blog -similar characteristics to Elron's own, that indicate this is possible.

The real test is "Is Marty Rathbun correctable"? Does he consider anyone else at least an equal? Does he see himself as the final authority? Prisons are loaded with criminals who are there because they saw themselves as the final authority. It is the single most common characteristic of criminals.

Inhibiting free discussion or full disclosure of facts on his website are not good signs.

If Marty only sees Elron as above him in authority, then you two and others who converse well enough with the tech, who have a welcome foot in his camp without being part of it, can point out discrepancies in the tech and possibly get through to him. By your own statement, Axiom142, you believe Marty is still growing and changing. I want you to be right. I hope you are right. But if you are right, then do something about it.

You say you don't want us fighting as different factions within ourselves? I don't see exscn.net is the problem. I've posted some very unpopular things and sometimes been bashed, so have others. But we all still post, don't we? We don't all like each other, we all don't agree on every point. But nobody here has been banned. You can still post here. We all can, even Scilos.

So get Marty steered in the right direction, then. He needs it.

Marty contacted me before he started his blog, asking if I could recomend some auditors. At that time I was unsure of him and his motives, but Jim
Logan had on one of our FZ forums said he knew Marty so I asked him about
Marty backchannel, one of the things Jim said was that if Marty went astray
he'd kick him in the ass, or something similar. Marty has praised Jim for at the int base tearing up DMs cramming orders when Jim was cramming officer there. No doubt the likes of Dan Koon, a real tech expert would also not
tolerate wrong doing or out tech.

Marty showed some compassion for those in the SO with a tech twist to it
when we had a bit of a tech discussion. He said he'd like to give correction to those who'd done enormous number of FPRD hours under duress, and find the time near the beginning where they may have got a win before being buried under enormous overun.

I don't see Marty as now being an end justifies the means guy, he may well have been one in the past.

Its interesting that Ax and I have a very similar viewpoint re Marty.
Ax no longer considers himself a scientologist, and one might suspect
he'd be less inclined than myself to be supportive of the man's
character.

Gadfly
30th December 2009, 03:52 PM
The one point that personally upsets me on Marty's blog is seeing wonderful people leave Scn & the SO only to go back into their SO and Scn valences before they've even had a change to find stability as themselves outside of Scn.

THAT! :thumbsup:

Spirited
30th December 2009, 03:53 PM
Per the original topic of this thread.
Marty says some "interesting " things sometimes but was not "lying" in this instance.

the freewinds mention is at the beginning of the "lisa mcpherson case" vid on the truth rundown.

He clearly says that he left /blew scientology in 1993 shortly after the IRS win. (This is not hidden data), then david miscavige persuaded him to come back and he was sent to the ship.
He said he did auditing and training and had not had any auditing for 10 - 12 years prior. the interviewer did not ask him what type of auditing he had.
he then said that once he was all done there, he left the ship in summer of 95 and went to clearwater.......he then went onto talking about the lisa mcpherson case.
the mention of ship was very short and brief and he was not singing praises of receiving LRH auditing etc.

to put it in context it was mentioned as a part of his "timeline" leading up to the LM case.
He wasn’t lying here.

Gadfly
30th December 2009, 03:58 PM
[/I]

Wow, thank you for listening! (to my posts)

In gratitude, may I offer you this aesthetic delight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C42kJWgyKIw

(ooops, you've been RonRolled! :D so solly, could not resist! :D But, seriously THX!)

THANK-YOU the "aesthetic delight"! I am not up on the Road to Freedom tape (or CD), having not been forced to listen to it now for many years. I remember how it would be playing EVEYWHERE at Flag. Endlessly. Was that really him singing?

Ahhhhgggggg! Horrible really.

Terril park
30th December 2009, 03:59 PM
Terril,
Redemption and second chances are found in every religion, and other places too. Do you know if Jim Logan contacted Marty and unconditionally forgave him before or after the SP Times article about how Marty snatched Annie back into the fold? I don't see Jim as Marty's friend so much as his ardent sycophant. He falls on his knees and fawns every time Marty opens his mouth, which I find ludicrous.

Was before the SP times article.

gimli
30th December 2009, 04:24 PM
Marty contacted me before he started his blog, asking if I could recomend
some auditors. At that time I was unsure of him and his motives, but Jim
Logan had on one of our FZ forums said he knew Marty so I asked him about
Marty backchannel, one of the things Jim said was that if Marty went astray
he'd kick him in the ass, or something similar.
...

I don't see Marty as now being an end justifies the means guy, he may well
have been one in the past.

You seemed to be blinded by only considering who is applying the tech and what they can contribute towards this end. Marty is literally so lost from reality. I'm sorry you can't see it, but just try and submit a comment to his blog that is even slightly makes him think about the consequences of his actions. He will delete anything that implies any wrong doing on his part.

He will also delete any comments that question LRH tech possibly being flawed. How is it that one man can ruin the entire works of LRH and the tech can be totally perverted by one squirrel? How did LRH have zero checks and balances built into the tech? How is it that so many people clearly lose their ability to be human beings?

How is it that Marty could have been such a monster and hurt so many people and now acts like since he's ok with it everyone should be.

How can Marty run around making callous comments about Lisa McPherson. He alone was responsible for covering up her death. Destroying her records. And preventing justice for her family and loved ones.

He is a sick sick person to continue to make jokes about her thetan coming by to read his words of wisdom, or even pretending scientology and the tech had nothing to do with her death. Literally, Marty has a psychotic break from reality to think his comments are ok.

BunnySkull
30th December 2009, 05:34 PM
Per the original topic of this thread.
Marty says some "interesting " things sometimes but was not "lying" in this instance.

the freewinds mention is at the beginning of the "lisa mcpherson case" vid on the truth rundown.

He clearly says that he left /blew scientology in 1993 shortly after the IRS win. (This is not hidden data), then david miscavige persuaded him to come back and he was sent to the ship.
He said he did auditing and training and had not had any auditing for 10 - 12 years prior. the interviewer did not ask him what type of auditing he had.
he then said that once he was all done there, he left the ship in summer of 95 and went to clearwater.......he then went onto talking about the lisa mcpherson case.
the mention of ship was very short and brief and he was not singing praises of receiving LRH auditing etc.

to put it in context it was mentioned as a part of his "timeline" leading up to the LM case.
He wasn’t lying here.

That's just the first mention of it and off the top of my head it I thought that was the video he discussed it, but it is just a brief mention and confirms that's where he went after he blew.

I don't have time at the moment but he has gone into greater detail about it - about being in New Orleans, about DM tracking him down there and him agreeing to meet him, about DM giving him the "opportunity" - he's even discussed how he spent hours and hours studying on the FW during that time.

When I get time later I'll post the links unless some one here beats me to it.

rhill
30th December 2009, 05:34 PM
You changed what I said. I said “real problem”.

Sorry, I got my quotes messed up, I originally quoted "real problem," and somehow later spotted "source problem" during revision. Cut&paste mistake somewhere, my bad.


Obviously you can call Hubbard the source of the problem as he came up with the subject in the first place and dictated the policies to be followed. But he isn’t here anymore so I can’t take him to task on this. My immediate concern is with the abuses being perpetrated right now by the CoS. They have to be stopped as a matter of urgency.

Wholeheartedly agree. I will just add that CoS has to be stopped now the same way it had to be stopped 40 years ago, it's is no more urgent now than it was 40 years ago, when David Miscavige wasn't in the picture yet. From the historical records, one can see that many people felt exactly this way decades ago: CoS had to be stopped ASAP. Actually, I believe CoS was more dangerous 40 years ago. Nowadays, it's sorta crippled with the ineluctable, ongoing free flow of information, and hopefully the current lawsuits re. human trafficking are going to put a stop to the, well, human trafficking, and all other associated abuses (disconnection, rpf, etc.)


I’m not bothered about DM’s state of mind either, but I do care if in-fighting and bickering forwards the purpose of his minions.

I think it's a matter of perception. What one sees as "in-fighting," others see as "healthy debate." Scrutinizing MR's statements and expressing counter-opinions I don't see this as "in-fighting," although I suppose MR, as the one being countered, could easily (but erroneously) see it this way, even more so that Scientology teachings "train" followers to feel negatively about counter-opinions ("entheta" etc.)


Scrutiny and free expression of counter opinions are something that I believe very strongly in. And, giving people a chance to recover from being in a mind-bending cult before jumping down their throats and telling them how stupid they are for believing something different seems to be a reasonable way to behave as well.

Doesn’t compassion and understanding have a place here?

Err... "jumping down their throats and telling them how stupid they are"? I think the reaction to MR's blog are more along the fact-corrections kind.

"Compassion and understanding" goes both way, and MR himself is being quite nasty to some of the long term victims of Scientology. Gerry Armstrong and Paulette Cooper comes to mind. So it's expected that he is going to be called on that kind of nastiness.

The attempt by CoS to remove information from google re. Scientology is what got me into looking Scientology closer. I couldn't care less before.

Re. Marty Rathbun, I can't speak for others. But I have offered comments on his blog re. various topics. It didn't take long before my comments were no longer accepted. (i.e. http://xenudirectory.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/scientology-culture-of-censorship-runs-deep/) That's quite a bad sign in my opinion re. his (hypothesized) recovery. Others have reported similar treatments.

Now, anyone reading his blog wouldn't know the comments he is not allowing, and you have to go by his words only, where he presents this along the line that those comments were oozing "hate" etc. So right there you have control of information, which to me equal control of people: He seem to not want any insights on his blog which might lead an LRH follower into questioning LRH. Thus, he censors information not unlike CoS tries to censor information.

Now, it's more than merely just not allowing differing views, he is associating differing views with "hate" and as "DM agents," the same way the Church of Scientology associates any information which might lead to questioning as negative.

How do you know if you would agree with him on whatever he is censoring if you can't see what he is censoring? That's called "controlling the free flow of information," and the only purpose is to control people. I wouldn't want anybody to chose for me, and without consulting me, what I should read or not, even if it was a close friend.

And right there this is one of the big problem at the core of Scientology: The "Suppressive person" doctrine creates a class of people which one should not listen to, as their utterances might lead to questioning. Scientology's "entheta" is a concept whereas any source of information which might lead to questioning is deemed as negative. "Disconnection" cuts one from source of information which might lead to questioning. "Fair game" is a practice used in order to silence for good source of information which might lead to questioning. Etc.

So when I see the same pattern from Marty Rathbun, who brand himself as the one who can fix Scientology, it's disturbing to say the least.

Think about it: When you read his blog, how would you know that he is preventing you from reading whatever useful insights with an interesting different angle on his writings? Maybe something someone wrote would make you think further about whatever. But he is not letting those insights in. Of course, one can go anywhere else than one wish to read on whatever one wants. But the point here is his conduct vs. his talk on this: He presents himself as some sort of free speech activist (see one of his last post re. "censorship," while engaging in censorship/smearing when it comes to LRH/Scientology. (associating critics of LRH with "hate" is the smear part.)


Not arbitrary time, but wouldn’t you want a reasonable period of time to recover? Getting out is at least a step in the right direction, so I’d give them credit for that. It’s when they do nothing that I get really pissed off.

All of senior management (ex or otherwise) have a lot of apologising and explaining to do. Mostly to their own members (ex or otherwise) for having deceived them when they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Rathbun and Rinder have at least started the process of making up for what they did.

An important element of recovery from LRH/Scientology is to understand that principle of free expression are more important than anyone's personal agenda -- especially our own.


Well, I suppose that I could go and add up all the different types of statements, but I really don’t have the time. I have seen a large number of statements of the type: “Marty does / did / thinks this …”, when clearly the person is not in a position to know this at all.

Well, I can say that Marty still practice censorship, and more: He associates differing views with "hate." And he asks people to trust him on this, as he doesn't allow people to see for themselves what he qualifies as "hate."


Are you prepared to actually meet with him and have a face-to-face discussion and get to know him, or just throw rocks from a distance

"Throw rock from a distance"? I posted a comment on his blog yesterday, in response to a comment he made (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/#comment-6893) on his "censorship" (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/) post. He zapped it. Here it is in case you care about this unbearably "assinine/hateful" comment of mine:


Doesn't strike you as ironic to justify the censorship of comments by referring to them as "full of generalities," without anything more specific? (Since we can't see these censored comments, you are asking people to trust entirely *your* interpretation -- but with all due respect, I rather rely on my *own* interpretation.)

I ask, because the comments I made in the past, which you never allowed, had specifics in them, and yet somehow you decided against them. I would appreciate very much that you point out actually *specifically* where the problem(s) was(were) in those posts.

All said, I suppose I could condense as follow: Dissecting/scrutinizing/countering MR's writings is contributing more toward whatever recovery is in store for him (and others) rather than refraining from it. Welcome to a world where free expression is valued (as opposed to the LRH world where it is abhorred.)

Now, to show I can also throw flowers, here it is: What I've seen so far from http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/ is pretty good so far re. recovery. Kudos.

gimli
30th December 2009, 06:14 PM
...."Compassion and understanding" goes both way, and MR himself is being quite nasty to some of the long term victims of Scientology. Gerry Armstrong and Paulette Cooper comes to mind. So it's expected that he is going to be called on that kind of nastiness.

Excellent post.

I also welcome as an exercise for the reader. Go over to Marty's blog see if any of your comments every get approved if they contain even the slightest hint of "think for yourself" or questioning the tech at all. Or basically anything not about DM that the actual church PR people would not allow.

Basically Marty is operating the flow of comments on his blog exactly like CoS does. ZOMG there is a brutal enemy who is terrorizing us. (DM=psychs) .. Anyone who is critical of us is helping the enemy. ("haters"=doing DM's work).. ZOMG, someone hack my password so it must be forces of evil trying to suppress my free speech (OSA did it)... (in reality, he lost nothing from this "hack"... he didn't even get locked out of his accounts).

nowout
30th December 2009, 10:03 PM
Hi now out,

You raised some contradictions about my statements.
They are not in contradiction.
When I spoke of the Execs and how they lived, it is true. We are covering a long career in the SO for these execs.
Of course, anyone in ethics trouble gets it differently.
Remember when Marty was on the ship, he was still special. Being looked after by Greg Wilhere comes with perks. If you have Greg as a handler, you get his treatment - the best. Marty may have been ethics bait, but you don't parade an Inspector General around badly - that is just bad PR for RTC.

I am sure Marty did not enjoy the Ship with Greg. But still, Marty never lived like a regular SO guy so any reduction in living standards is "punishment".

Outside of Marty's Ship experience, he lived quite well I assure you, in this there is no question.

Until you have seen the berthing they enjoy and have personally handled their food and luxury expenses, you can't imagine how good it was for them over regular SO.

Thank you Aaron. Been there an done that a few times. I just don't understand what you're trying to say about the whole thread here of what Marty is lying about ???

I fully agree with Spirited's post:


Per the original topic of this thread.
Marty says some "interesting " things sometimes but was not "lying" in this instance.

the freewinds mention is at the beginning of the "lisa mcpherson case" vid on the truth rundown.

He clearly says that he left /blew scientology in 1993 shortly after the IRS win. (This is not hidden data), then david miscavige persuaded him to come back and he was sent to the ship.
He said he did auditing and training and had not had any auditing for 10 - 12 years prior. the interviewer did not ask him what type of auditing he had.
he then said that once he was all done there, he left the ship in summer of 95 and went to clearwater.......he then went onto talking about the lisa mcpherson case.
the mention of ship was very short and brief and he was not singing praises of receiving LRH auditing etc.

to put it in context it was mentioned as a part of his "timeline" leading up to the LM case.
He wasn’t lying here.

aaron saxton
31st December 2009, 01:04 AM
The reason why this post was started is to understand what Marty is doing.

He leaves out information. This is what the Church does with LRHs history as a fantastic naval officer and a student that would be too good for any school on Earth.

Through the omission of information your brain is left free to create a false, and ironically positive view (thats what the brain does first before being negative) of the slighest actions Marty has taken or been involved in.

Marty has not given any story. And the story he will tell will be engineered to leave out vital points of information, that if known would make him appear to be a human with faults.

Marty wants to be seen as a victim. So he can associate with others who are victims. Because Victims that are comforted 24/7 will drop down in tone to a point where they will lick your balls if you ask them nicely enough.

Ironically, one almost gets the idea form looking at his blog that he considered himself an expert on Scientology.

But he is no expert. Thousands of others know more about the subject. He is a total failure. If a robot knew scientology materials, and you considered that an expert, then OK, Marty is an expert of sorts.

He had a lot of experience, and experience doesn't equal information. The mere fact it took him years and years to see anything was wrong, and then to think it was DM and not LRH at fault. Oh my God, a real failure of magnitude.

I wonder if Marty has ever read "A Piece of Blue Sky". Probably not.

Frankly, there are people on this site that have a far greater grasp of Scientology than Marty - in fact most, and that includes the people on this site that have never ben involved with Scn.

It is because they have the ability to evaluate.

Marty just isn't a very smart man.

He is a devious man, the lowest form of intelligence that gathers most of it's strength from the trusting nature of others.

Marty still can not, and will not engage in open dialogue.

He is preparing himself for his final con - to sell the public that Scientology works, that it's founder was a good guy, and that the empire was taken over BEFORE DM came along by evil people, that LRH didn't write that bad stuff we saw and didnt know about it.

Oh, and that Marty can fix it. And if he cant get it that way, he will try to make it legal to set up his own movement, in violation of his beloved founder's wish.

My point is Marty is no side show. He had te St. Petersburg times listening to him, and they swallow what he shoves their way.

The St. Petersburg time hasn't come to this forum to get valuable informaiton, the St. Petersburg times have falled for the old trap "Authority is Truth" rather than "Truth is authority" and thus slithered to Mike and Marty thinkign they would get the full story.

They didn't.

And Marty and Mike didn't recommend any of you guys to the St. Ptersburg times, did he? Why not? Perhaps it because he thinks the info you have is worthless and irrelevant.

God knows, this is what he thinks of anyone else at this time.

He had a chance to get some people onto the St. Petersburg times to get real info out there and said "pass".

What is even more amazing is that the paper thinks it has "the dirt". When in fact it was given almost nothing.

I could write to the St. Petersburg time, and they would not listen to me no matter how many affidavits I had, or no matter the evidence. Thus it stands to reason there is a special interest involved.

Marty knows "all" when in fact the real joke is that most people around him know more than he does. And are laughing.

Make no mistake, a dork like Marty will have BACKERS, ready to use Marty to get what they want,. They are lining up, as they did with DM and LRH, ready to get the next fanatic to deliver the next big con, without even knowing it.

I'm tired, and its new years, I'm off to go get some music into me.

Axiom142
31st December 2009, 01:17 AM
Wholeheartedly agree. I will just add that CoS has to be stopped now the same way it had to be stopped 40 years ago, it's is no more urgent now than it was 40 years ago, when David Miscavige wasn't in the picture yet. From the historical records, one can see that many people felt exactly this way decades ago: CoS had to be stopped ASAP. Actually, I believe CoS was more dangerous 40 years ago. Nowadays, it's sorta crippled with the ineluctable, ongoing free flow of information, and hopefully the current lawsuits re. human trafficking are going to put a stop to the, well, human trafficking, and all other associated abuses (disconnection, rpf, etc.)

I agree, it would have been great if it had been stopped 40 years ago or perhaps taken a very different direction, but unfortunately anyone who stood up to the CoS juggernaut got crushed. Now, things are very different. Global communications enable people to become connected and the truth disseminated. The CoS is definitely on the way out, but only because people are keeping up the pressure.


I think it's a matter of perception. What one sees as "in-fighting," others see as "healthy debate." Scrutinizing MR's statements and expressing counter-opinions I don't see this as "in-fighting," although I suppose MR, as the one being countered, could easily (but erroneously) see it this way, even more so that Scientology teachings "train" followers to feel negatively about counter-opinions ("entheta" etc.)

I’m all for healthy debate. But sometimes other things take priority. If the barbarians are beating down the gate to the city, you could sit around arguing whether you want to fight next to someone you don’t like or give them a good telling off because they upset you, or you could recognise that action is required right away to defend against the immediate danger. And besides, you might need all the allies you can get at this time.

When that danger has been thoroughly defeated, then you can sit down together and debate as much as you want.


Err... "jumping down their throats and telling them how stupid they are"? I think the reaction to MR's blog are more along the fact-corrections kind.

"Compassion and understanding" goes both way, and MR himself is being quite nasty to some of the long term victims of Scientology. Gerry Armstrong and Paulette Cooper comes to mind. So it's expected that he is going to be called on that kind of nastiness.

Most ESMBers have been very understanding to those who are still trapped in the cultic mindset, as most were once in the same position, but there are also a number of people who have no tolerance for anyone who still adheres in any way to Hubbard’s teachings.

I don’t think that this is at all helpful.


Re. Marty Rathbun, I can't speak for others. But I have offered comments on his blog re. various topics. It didn't take long before my comments were no longer accepted. (i.e. http://xenudirectory.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/scientology-culture-of-censorship-runs-deep/) That's quite a bad sign in my opinion re. his (hypothesized) recovery. Others have reported similar treatments.

Now, anyone reading his blog wouldn't know the comments he is not allowing, and you have to go by his words only, where he presents this along the line that those comments were oozing "hate" etc. So right there you have control of information, which to me equal control of people: He seem to not want any insights on his blog which might lead an LRH follower into questioning LRH. Thus, he censors information not unlike CoS tries to censor information.

Now, it's more than merely just not allowing differing views, he is associating differing views with "hate" and as "DM agents," the same way the Church of Scientology associates any information which might lead to questioning as negative.

How do you know if you would agree with him on whatever he is censoring if you can't see what he is censoring? That's called "controlling the free flow of information," and the only purpose is to control people. I wouldn't want anybody to chose for me, and without consulting me, what I should read or not, even if it was a close friend.

And right there this is one of the big problem at the core of Scientology: The "Suppressive person" doctrine creates a class of people which one should not listen to, as their utterances might lead to questioning. Scientology's "entheta" is a concept whereas any source of information which might lead to questioning is deemed as negative. "Disconnection" cuts one from source of information which might lead to questioning. "Fair game" is a practice used in order to silence for good source of information which might lead to questioning. Etc.

So when I see the same pattern from Marty Rathbun, who brand himself as the one who can fix Scientology, it's disturbing to say the least.

Think about it: When you read his blog, how would you know that he is preventing you from reading whatever useful insights with an interesting different angle on his writings? Maybe something someone wrote would make you think further about whatever. But he is not letting those insights in. Of course, one can go anywhere else than one wish to read on whatever one wants. But the point here is his conduct vs. his talk on this: He presents himself as some sort of free speech activist (see one of his last post re. "censorship," while engaging in censorship/smearing when it comes to LRH/Scientology. (associating critics of LRH with "hate" is the smear part.)

An important element of recovery from LRH/Scientology is to understand that principle of free expression are more important than anyone's personal agenda -- especially our own.

Well, I can say that Marty still practice censorship, and more: He associates differing views with "hate." And he asks people to trust him on this, as he doesn't allow people to see for themselves what he qualifies as "hate."

You make some very good points there Rhill. And I agree with most of them. I don’t like censorship and in fact the suppression of free speech was one of the things that I came to hate the most when I was ‘in’, and ultimately, was one of the things that finally caused me to leave. The free expression of ideas and objective criticism is vital if people are to recover from their experiences in Scientology.

I’m certainly not an apologist for Marty Rathbun, but I do try to see things from his perspective. He is trying to appeal to people who still consider themselves Scientologists and get them to see that the CoS has become a cult and will destroy them if they remain a part of it. Rightly or wrongly, most of these people still have faith in the ‘Technology’ of Scientology. If his blog becomes just another ‘Scientology and Hubbard bashing forum’, then most of his target audience will be turned off and stay away.

Now, you could argue that if they were really secure in their beliefs, they would be able to confront a bit of criticism and be able to hold their space and argue their position. But, I’m afraid that most aren’t up to that point yet. So he has to make allowances.

Besides, it’s his blog, so he can make the rules if he chooses.

I’m not going to get too worked up about not being able to say exactly what I think on a couple of forums. There are plenty of other places where I can criticise Scientology, Scientologists and Hubbard’s works.


"Throw rock from a distance"? I posted a comment on his blog yesterday, in response to a comment he made (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/#comment-6893) on his "censorship" (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/) post. He zapped it. Here it is in case you care about this unbearably "assinine/hateful" comment of mine:

Well, perhaps that comment of mine about rocks was a tad melodramatic. :blush: It wasn’t really aimed at you, but more at those who clearly aren’t interested in dialogue but just want to verbally beat up people without even bothering to see it from their point of view. Walk in their shoes, so to speak. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to meet with Marty Rathbun. And I’m very glad I did as I learnt some very interesting things and got a new perspective on some significant events in the history of Scientology.

I did some stupid things and believed some absolute rubbish when I was in the CoS. If I had stayed in the Sea Org instead of leaving 20 years ago, I might have ended up being just as bad as some of the guys we’ve heard about. If I had, I would like to think that I could somehow be allowed to make up for it.

I know there is a lot of frustration here on ESMB and elsewhere, with the perceived lack of action by people who were at the very top. All I can say to that is that not everything happens out in plain sight and sometimes you won’t hear about it until the time is right. Some things take a long time to bring to fruition and have to be done carefully if they are to succeed.

But, some things are well worth waiting for. :yes:

Axiom142

AnonyMary
31st December 2009, 01:20 AM
This version of the story seems to paint a different picture than Aaron's Original Video #5 (of 7) Transcript:


..."Aaron: And now they're out. What does it tell you? Not only did they not buy it, they don't want to buy it any more. They know what they did. They helped create that, and they should be sorry for it. And they should do something about it. And standing in front of a camera saying "David Miscavige slapped me on the wrist" - it's not a confession of what you did, Marty Rathbun, sitting on that ship.

Carmel: What do you mean, sitting on the ship?

Aaron: Eating, eating, eating a fuck- eating five-star meals on a ship by a five-star French chef? In the Caribbean? Oh, you poor soul! I feel so sorry for you that you get your own private cabin, while the other Sea Org members are stacked three high in rooms small enough for one human being, and we stack 'em nine high in there. And you want ME to feel sorry for YOU because you got slapped? You, you deserve that and a lot more, pal, you know. Because by the end of the day, you were happy to just accept your lot. You thought you had some inalienable right to be better than the other human beings. And you're not talking about that, Mr. Rathbun. You're not talking about the fact that you had a private steward, that came to your table and grovelled and asked you what you wanted to eat, and got it for you. You're not talking about the fact that you had chauffeurs. These are luxuries, even for regular human beings. And the regular Sea Org member looks upon you as a god. And you abused your privilege. You know, these guys give up fourteen hours of their life every day and go sometimes for years without a single day off, and they take one step, one foot wrong and, and they're treated like garbage. And then if they dare leave, they're called a 'degraded being' by Ron Hubbard himself. He told us to call them 'degraded beings'. "

From: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=334443&postcount=5

Who's Lying with the changed stories? Being kept under lock and key sure is different than having a private steward???

Each is about different periods of time, I believe. Obviously Marty has been on the freewinds more than a few times during his years as an Int Exec in the SO as well as times at FLB and INT being catered to in comparison to othere SO members. So, I believe he's talking about the times before Marty blew ( which Aaron would know about because that is when he was in and Marty was in good graces with DM. As far as the discussion of the time the two of them were on the Freewinds at the same time, I think his statement on that speaks for that time itself.

nowout
31st December 2009, 01:27 AM
The reason why this post was started is to understand what Marty is doing.

He leaves out information.

Aaron,

Thanks very much for the explanation for the thread. I hope you find some good Music and have a Happy New Year!

nowout
31st December 2009, 01:40 AM
Each is about different periods of time, I believe. Obviously Marty has been on the freewinds more than a few times during his years as an Int Exec in the SO as well as times at FLB and INT being catered to in comparison to othere SO members. So, I believe he's talking about the times before Marty blew ( which Aaron would know about because that is when he was in and Marty was in good graces with DM. As far as the discussion of the time the two of them were on the Freewinds at the same time, I think his statement on that speaks for that time itself.


AnonyMary, the point is that Aaron was on the ship once and told the same story in two different versions his first interview with Carmel and the first post of this thread, which hasn't been denied. Still can't understand the point of Marty caught lying.

AgentOfDave
31st December 2009, 02:00 AM
...I’m all for healthy debate. But sometimes other things take priority. If the barbarians are beating down the gate to the city, you could sit around arguing whether you want to fight next to someone you don’t like or give them a good telling off because they upset you, or you could recognise that action is required right away to defend against the immediate danger....
I don't think most people have a problem with him because he believes in the "tech," or because he did some seriously evil crap in the past, people are (rightly IMO) concerned that he appears keen to revitalise Scientology, whilst continuing to show a number of worrying traits that have caused many many problems for CofS and those who've come into contact with it in the past.

AnonyMary
31st December 2009, 03:01 AM
AnonyMary, the point is that Aaron was on the ship once and told the same story in two different versions his first interview with Carmel and the first post of this thread, which hasn't been denied. Still can't understand the point of Marty caught lying.

I believe Aaron is saying that Marty is lying about the reasons for going to and the activities done on the ship in that instance in 1993 after he blew a week after the IRS case was completed and 'then was recovered by his wife under the instruction of DM.'
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=352346&postcount=1

Marty says on video that he went because DM offered him via Anne, the opportunity to come back. He says, essentially, that he went and got the enhancement ie auditing and training that he had not received during the previous 10 or so yrs while working nonstop on the IRS and court battles:

http://www.tampabay.com/video/?bcpid=26806137001&bclid=26821275001&bctid=24581326001

Aaron is saying that Marty was kept under lock and key and or observation when not being sec checked during that time on the ship, and that Marty is lying that it was a time of enhancement, so to speak.

IMHO, I don't think Marty lied so much as he implied that time on the ship was for something other than punishment, which is what Aaron says it actually was.

This is the time frame. The church PR line is :
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=15576 :
"Mr Rathbun was removed from his position related to legal and public relations matters in the US in 1993, after having inexplicably deserted his post. He later returned and worked his way back into legal affairs."

Marty has not admitted to having been given a handler and handled the DM way during that time on the ship.

Gottabrain
31st December 2009, 03:53 AM
Marty contacted me before he started his blog, asking if I could recomend some auditors. At that time I was unsure of him and his motives, but Jim
Logan had on one of our FZ forums said he knew Marty so I asked him about
Marty backchannel, one of the things Jim said was that if Marty went astray
he'd kick him in the ass, or something similar. Marty has praised Jim for at the int base tearing up DMs cramming orders when Jim was cramming officer there. No doubt the likes of Dan Koon, a real tech expert would also not
tolerate wrong doing or out tech.

Marty showed some compassion for those in the SO with a tech twist to it
when we had a bit of a tech discussion. He said he'd like to give correction to those who'd done enormous number of FPRD hours under duress, and find the time near the beginning where they may have got a win before being buried under enormous overun.

I don't see Marty as now being an end justifies the means guy, he may well have been one in the past.



Thanks, Terril. I think the upsets here boil down to just 3 or 4 points and I will contact him regarding those points in the most amiable way possible in the hopes that he will actually address those issues. We'll see what happens. It's worth a go, anyway.

Re FPRD - Terril, you sly dog, you. :D I got that. I will NEVER again be interested in Scilo tech, but I got the hug and your good intentions. You are truly a beautiful spirit and even your saying that had a bit of a healing effect. Ta, Terril. :love11:

BRAVEHEART: AWESOME post, thank you. But you kind of missed my point. It is the VALENCE, the artificial persona, the SO/Staff/Public personas that are so horrible, not what is done in the field. When a person is in that persona, discussion is out of the question, being wrong is out of the question, others' viewpoints are automatically wrong, others are looked down on, there is a false superior attitude and anything goes for the sake of the "tech". It is a bit of a brainwashed, robotic thing. The worst of those personas is the Nazi persona. Terril does not have this persona. DianaClVIII does not have this persona. Here are two wonderful Freezone individuals and I have no problem at all with them doing what they do in the field. I adore both of them. Marty appears to still be in his "powerful SO Member" persona, but I do not know him well enough to make that judgement. That is, in a nutshell, the difference that determines whether an effort, person or group is good or bad. We'll see how he responds to my letter.

Terril park
31st December 2009, 04:33 PM
Thanks, Terril. I think the upsets here boil down to just 3 or 4 points and I will contact him regarding those points in the most amiable way possible in the hopes that he will actually address those issues. We'll see what happens. It's worth a go, anyway.

Re FPRD - Terril, you sly dog, you. :D I got that. I will NEVER again be interested in Scilo tech, but I got the hug and your good intentions. You are truly a beautiful spirit and even your saying that had a bit of a healing effect. Ta, Terril. :love11:

BRAVEHEART: AWESOME post, thank you. But you kind of missed my point. It is the VALENCE, the artificial persona, the SO/Staff/Public personas that are so horrible, not what is done in the field. When a person is in that persona, discussion is out of the question, being wrong is out of the question, others' viewpoints are automatically wrong, others are looked down on, there is a false superior attitude and anything goes for the sake of the "tech". It is a bit of a brainwashed, robotic thing. The worst of those personas is the Nazi persona. Terril does not have this persona. DianaClVIII does not have this persona. Here are two wonderful Freezone individuals and I have no problem at all with them doing what they do in the field. I adore both of them. Marty appears to still be in his "powerful SO Member" persona, but I do not know him well enough to make that judgement. That is, in a nutshell, the difference that determines whether an effort, person or group is good or bad. We'll see how he responds to my letter.

Where did you find a smiley of me blushing?

Voltaire's Child
31st December 2009, 09:08 PM
I don't think most people have a problem with him because he believes in the "tech," or because he did some seriously evil crap in the past, people are (rightly IMO) concerned that he appears keen to revitalise Scientology, whilst continuing to show a number of worrying traits that have caused many many problems for CofS and those who've come into contact with it in the past.

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pooks
31st December 2009, 09:59 PM
Aaron:


Marty still can not, and will not engage in open dialogue.

He is preparing himself for his final con - to sell the public that Scientology works, that it's founder was a good guy, and that the empire was taken over BEFORE DM came along by evil people, that LRH didn't write that bad stuff we saw and didnt know about it.

I agree Marty will not engage in open dialogue. He can't. He's truly unable to. His Scientology filters/blinders are firmly in place and he dismisses any contrary views just the way Scn taught him to.




.


My point is Marty is no side show. He had te St. Petersburg times listening to him, and they swallow what he shoves their way.

The St. Petersburg time hasn't come to this forum to get valuable informaiton, the St. Petersburg times have falled for the old trap "Authority is Truth" rather than "Truth is authority" and thus slithered to Mike and Marty thinkign they would get the full story.

They didn't.




A little perspective is needed here. Today the SP Times did a story about 3 OT 8's that recently left the cult. These 3 OT 8's are only recently out so still very much indoctrinated with the Scn mindset. But even with all that indoctrination, they still did an excellent job of standing up and having the balls to speak out about what they thought is wrong with the Church.

Just a few short years ago this event was just about unthinkable. If there were OT 8's leaving the cult, they were quietly sneaking away, not giving interviews to the SP Times.

We've come a long way baby! Don't fall in with the militant/fanatical Ex's that think every post/article/video about Scn has to be a hard hitting piece that bites/rips DM's balls off, and that if anyone says ANYTHING that might be "nice" about Scn is just an OSA OP.

This SP Times article is just 3 newly out OT 8's telling their story. Put it in perspective and realize this is a huge win.

Don't worry about Marty and those still very indoctrinate whiners. Tell YOUR STORY. Get the facts out there.

Zinjifar
31st December 2009, 10:03 PM
And, for god's sake, could we get off the 'IRS runs Scn' ride? The only reason that gets any play at all is that there are some true believers who can't get past the delusion that Scientology has some magical 'Tech' that's *worth* stealing.

Zinj

Pooks
31st December 2009, 10:15 PM
And, for god's sake, could we get off the 'IRS runs Scn' ride? The only reason that gets any play at all is that there are some true believers who can't get past the delusion that Scientology has some magical 'Tech' that's *worth* stealing.

Zinj

Agreed. The IRS runs Scn conspiracy has been debunked. Larry Brennan, the guy who actually ran all the missions to create the entire Scn corporate maze, has written all about it.

Read the facts not the conspiracy.

http://larrybren.blogspot.com/

AnonyMary
31st December 2009, 11:33 PM
Aaron:



I agree Marty will not engage in open dialogue. He can't. He's truly unable to. His Scientology filters/blinders are firmly in place and he dismisses any contrary views just the way Scn taught him to.

A little perspective is needed here. Today the SP Times did a story about 3 OT 8's that recently left the cult. These 3 OT 8's are only recently out so still very much indoctrinated with the Scn mindset. But even with all that indoctrination, they still did an excellent job of standing up and having the balls to speak out about what they thought is wrong with the Church.

Just a few short years ago this event was just about unthinkable. If there were OT 8's leaving the cult, they were quietly sneaking away, not giving interviews to the SP Times.

We've come a long way baby! Don't fall in with the militant/fanatical Ex's that think every post/article/video about Scn has to be a hard hitting piece that bites/rips DM's balls off, and that if anyone says ANYTHING that might be "nice" about Scn is just an OSA OP.

This SP Times article is just 3 newly out OT 8's telling their story. Put it in perspective and realize this is a huge win.

Don't worry about Marty and those still very indoctrinate whiners. Tell YOUR STORY. Get the facts out there.

I agree for the most part except that the problem is that there is more than just 3 newly out OTs telling their story in this latest edition on Scientology at SP Times/ TampaBay.com .

What's with all this promoting the bridge to OT baloney?:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/climbing-the-bridge-a-journey-to-8216operating-thetan/1062094

PerfectRecall
31st December 2009, 11:35 PM
If Marty came out and criticized LRH as much as DM his message would be instantly Dead Agented by OSA retards. They'd say "Look, RM says the same things about LRH and we all know that LRH was perfect so there for RM is an SP." Deluded Scilons can only take so much truth. I completely agree with Axiom142 on this one.

Regardless of whether RM is or isn't still deluded about LRH the positioning with LRH is much more persuasive to Scientolgists. For that reason alone it is worth him maintaining a stance that LRH was great and DM the psychopath.

Zinjifar
31st December 2009, 11:38 PM
All Marty has to do is come out and tell the truth about what *he* did for the 'Church' of Scientology.

He wouldn't have to mention Ron at all

Zinj

AnonyMary
31st December 2009, 11:41 PM
All Marty has to do is come out and tell the truth about what *he* did for the 'Church' of Scientology.

He wouldn't have to mention Ron at all

Zinj

Good luck on that one, lol

Terril park
1st January 2010, 01:03 AM
Aaron:

I agree Marty will not engage in open dialogue. He can't. He's truly unable to. His Scientology filters/blinders are firmly in place and he dismisses any contrary views just the way Scn taught him to.



He did with me and Ax.

His blog? This is a dissem PR matter and really his private domain
to rule as he wishes. He does allow much dissent. Its a good start.

He is trying to rescue scientology IMO. Thus to allow any and all critical posts would sabotage what he is trying to do.

Maybe sometime later he may get into full discussion mode here on
ESMB. Maybe not.

He is much more flexible than many here consider. He has little
respect for L's tech. But here we begin to creep into the common
areas of FZ conflict. Who is the most standard?

Marty is very solid basics. TRs and metering. So he says.
I believe him.

They sent as hostages/ failed cases, Tom Cruise, and I believe John Travolta.

That Tom cruises agent sends angry messages seems to back this up.
Seems Marty can do tech quite well.

Panda Termint
1st January 2010, 04:41 AM
Terril, I've said it before but once again, I see Marty's problem as being;
"How to cure scientology without killing it."
Many have written the patient off, many others live in hope of a cure.

HelluvaHoax!
1st January 2010, 05:13 AM
Terril, I've said it before but once again, I see Marty's problem as being; "How to cure scientology without killing it." Many have written the patient off, many others live in hope of a cure.

That patient is diagnostically confirmed as comatose.

However, occasionally there are brief involuntary eruptions. For example...

Last Thursday just before 2:00 the patient was observed rapidly thrashing it's legs about on the bed as if running.

At least one person claims coma is a misdiagnosis. Ever since Rathbun researched some confidential medical documents (that are not available to anyone else) he has been sending in a constant stream of what he calls "Pro-Bono C/Sing"-- but Church doctors have ignored his instructions to date.

Today, Marty's next C/S calls for an Introspection Rundown for the the patient which he personally volunteered to "...run to full End Phenomena."

Panda Termint
1st January 2010, 05:20 AM
Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning?

Cherished
1st January 2010, 08:13 AM
They sent as hostages/ failed cases, Tom Cruise, and I believe John Travolta.

What does this mean?

gimli
1st January 2010, 08:57 AM
He does allow much dissent. Its a good start.

No offense.. ok, tons of it.. but your are really, really fucking clueless if you honestly believe this.

I dare you to post with a proxy IP address and a non-known name and say anything even mildly thought provoking.

Marty allows zero "entheta" that might make anyone think about the effectiveness of the tech, or assholery of Marty's past hats.

Marty lives in a bubble. He wants his followers to live in the same bubble.

The tech is flawed if one person can ruin the whole fucking thing for everyone. If DM is so bad.. how shitty is the tech that it can't withstand one fucking squirrel ruining everything?

Balthasar
1st January 2010, 12:53 PM
They sent as hostages/ failed cases, Tom Cruise, and I believe John Travolta.




Terril,
WHO sent WHOM/WHAT to WHERE??? :confused2:

lionheart
1st January 2010, 01:36 PM
The reason why this post was started is to understand what Marty is doing.

He leaves out information. This is what the Church does with LRHs history as a fantastic naval officer and a student that would be too good for any school on Earth.

<snip>

I'm tired, and its new years, I'm off to go get some music into me.

Aaaron, we've not really had any dialogue, but I wanted to let you know that I understand.

Taking on the scientology monster and facing it is exhausting sometimes.

You have done wonderfully well. Don't let yourself be pulled into the mind games that Ron booby trapped his cult with.

Enjoy your music, have a great New Year and keep telling your truth.

Marty will reap what he sows with or without our influence.

Just tell your truth about Marty's actions while in the cult. Marty's current PR games in which he is trained will be seen by many for what they are.

Happy New cult-free Year! :happydance:

Terril park
2nd January 2010, 01:15 AM
What does this mean?

I was being a bit fast and loose with those comments.

Its established that Marty audited Tom Cruise. I heard somewhere
I think that he'd audited John also, but am less certain of that.

Its been said, and I believe reasonably well documented that Tom
became estranged with COS. He got rescued, and returned to the fold.
It may have been Marty who did this, or maybe he audited Tom later.

Its interesting because Tom got special VIP treatment, and the best of
auditors, not to mention girlfriends! And expensive birthday parties on
the Freewinds!

Not sure what Marty's training level is, but such celebrities usually get class VIIIs. The best ones. Marty must be pretty good. On the other hand the best auditors in COS have been so demoralised that they cannot
function well now. That has been an ongoing trend.

BunnySkull
5th January 2010, 11:48 PM
A few people had asked for more of Marty's specific comments about his time on the Freewinds that Aaron refers to - outside of his mentions of it on the truth rundown videos. I was having trouble remembering where he went into a lot of detail about and while doing a search today, I came across it. I'm adding it to this thread for posterity. (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=305461&postcount=1)

(It was an entry from Rathbun's old blog but I don't know if its been added to the new one yet, so I'm linking to a thread from here that had the blog post in it's entirety)

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=305461&postcount=1
---------------------------------------------------------

I worked pretty hard for 12 years in support of obtaining tax exemption for the Church. My primary motivation was that it was called for in LRH’s estate planning which was designed to make Scientology available to everyone ultimately. His estate planning called for a system of checks and balances so that one madman could not lord over and destroy all of Scientology. When exemption was attained it took me about a month to confirm my suspicions that the checks and balances had indeed been usurped by a madman. The control was so thorough that to even subtly object would mean being shipped off to a gulag and made into a mouse. I got on my motorcycle and rode across the country for nine days. When I phoned my father from San Antonio Greg Wilhere intercepted the call – he sat for days by my father’s bed side who was terminally ill with cancer for this purpose. He begged me to speak to Miscavige. I did, and Miscavige pleaded with me to meet him in New Orleans. I met him. Miscavige swore to God he would cease acting like a madman, and promised he would stop abusing people. He told me if I returned he’d send me to the ship to train and move up through OT III (I was Clear at the time) since I had worked so hard and safeguarded the church forever and thus deserved it.

I accepted since training in and applying Scientology was the only reason I joined the Sea Org in the first place. Miscavige sent his most trusted Class XII Greg Wilhere to join me to twin with me and report on me. He sent Snr CS Int Class XII Ray Mithoff to audit/sec check me. Both have recently executed declarations under the penalties of perjury that they are DM’s top technical dogs and I am a lunatic who has no certificates.

Now, you have probably seen that I have copped to committing physical violence on staff members – on several occasions in 2001 and two occasions in January 2004. Mithoff’s and Wilhere’s decarlarations reminded me of some more physical battery I performed on several occasions.

a. I lightly kicked Wilhere in the shins on a number of occasions, just hard enough to wake him up when he fell asleep while “coaching/suping” me on TRs, and meter drills, and while auditing me.

b. I lightly kicked Mithoff in the shins on a number of occasions just hard enough to wake him when he feel asleep on me in session.

Note, since I left the Sea Org a number of others have reported similar batteries upon those two for the same reasons.

Because no one on the ship had any idea I had blown, but for Greg and Ray, and because they only knew me as IG Ethics, nobody fooled with me on study. It was just me and LRH as far as I was concerned. I absorbed it intensively because it was the opportunity I fought for twelve years to obtain. I never once in almost two years of study doped off. I demanded to and did TR O two hour blinkless – even though I had to look at a dozing twin. When it came to the meter drills, the Class XIIs couldn’t do them with me because their needles were painted to the dial. I had to sup myself on those too, using greenhorn staff whose needles reacted like normal beings. And – long before the Golden Age of Tech, and despite orders from the two Class XIIs I didn’t need to – I did the dating drill all the way to a done routinely with no flubs. That is the way I applied LRH because I was dead serious about thoroughly duplicating his tech and using it as he did.

When I started student auditing, another Class XII – Margaret Supak – C/S’d my auditing. Not long into Grade O auditing she sent me to cramming for “comm cycle additives” for asking a distraught p.c. “what’s up.” Of course, the p.c. told me and it was the first of many, many cases I would crack by simply using communication, my meter and trying to audit like LRH did. You might have noticed that it is ILLEGAL in the current Church of Miscavology to audit anything like LRH did in the many auditing demo tapes he recorded.

Well, when I refused the cram, Wilhere came in to handle me. He couldn’t. He had zero altitude or credibility with me for the outnesses noted above and because I caught him and reported him for destroying the Freewinds Captain’s marriage by constantly and covertly flirting with his wife.

Mithoff then laid down the law with me. He told me the numerous LRH references I provided to him stating to the effect that the only way an auditor can seriously run aground is by failing to understand what is going on with the pc before him, and that one must use two way communication (required by the auditors code) to be sure he does, were trumped by Class VIII data. I told him that rather than accept verbal tech from him, I was now forced to go study Class VIII. I listened to all the Class VIII lectures and read all the written references I had not already read on Academy training.

Of course I found out Mithoff was lying or simply hadn’t a clue what Class VIII is about – and thus no clue what Standard Tech actually is. LRH lays in with an atomic branding iron that Class VIIIs study all the tech and it is drilled and applied and finally one can simply sit down and “play the piano.” Just like he advised policy be applied in the intro to the OEC. You don’t argue one line of one HCOB against another. Just as you don’t argue one line of policy against another. Incidentally, that is ALL that DM’s technical hierarchy and international management have done for years. They produce nothing. They use tech and policy to stop all day long. And right when some enterprising soul does something adventurous like do an eval, or initiate a sane tech program, Miscavige will enter some blanket order that “evals are canceled” (actual DM order), or Snr CS Int Office can issue no orders (actual DM order).

When I left the ship I had trained through Class V Grad officially. But, because of my experience with the Class XII priesthood, I effectively did the Briefing Course and Class VIII. That is because Mithoff could not explain to me why a number of integral LRH lectures were not on the Academy level checksheets he and DM had issued in LRH’s name. Rather than limit myself to the 8-12 lectures on each Grade – and then again at NED and Grad V and HSSC – I did a computer search and pulled and listened to every lecture LRH ever gave that touched on COMMUNICATION AT LEVEL 0, PROBLEMS AT LEVEL I, O/W AT LEVEL II, ARC BREAKS AT LEVEL III, AND SERV FACS AT LEVEL 4 , etc......
-----------------------------
(more at the org. post but I figured this was enough for this thread)

thetanic
6th January 2010, 01:48 AM
Fascinating -- I actually found the part you didn't excerpt more interesting.

Veda
6th January 2010, 02:16 AM
LRH lays in with an atomic branding iron that Class VIIIs study all the tech and it is drilled and applied and finally one can simply sit down and “play the piano.” Just like he advised policy be applied in the intro to the OEC. You don’t argue one line of one HCOB against another. Just as you don’t argue one line of policy against another.



Marty is selling/promoting himself in this piece. He thinks it makes him look good.

Marty's not mentioning the LRH confidential materials, both "tech" and "policy." He Knows those LRH materials very well, and also "plays that piano," or would like to again someday.

He is reavealing his fanaticism, and his understanding of the overt/covert stratified and compartmentalized template of Scientology.

"You don't argue one line of policy against another."

See the May 1955 'Manual on Dissemination of Material' for a hint of how that could be, and 'The Scientological Onion' for a more detailed look.

Marty is 100% LRH cult.

He really does understand the LRH cult machine, and he likes it.

supafreak
6th January 2010, 11:49 AM
My personal preference is Wrathbunz.


Oh super, now I'm thinking about Marty Rathbun's arse. :ohmy:

thetanic
6th January 2010, 01:10 PM
Marty is selling/promoting himself in this piece. He thinks it makes him look good.

Marty's not mentioning the LRH confidential materials, both "tech" and "policy." He Knows those LRH materials very well, and also "plays that piano," or would like to again someday.

First of all, whenever anyone tells their own story, they are always selling or promoting themselves in one way or another whether they realize it or not. I don't see that as a bad thing unless they're lying, and I don't see anything here that strikes me as the kind of flat-out lie that Aaron accuses Marty of.

Marty's habit is not to mention the confidential materials in public writings. Some techies feel like that, and I don't personally have a problem with it, though I'd rather people discussed them, so I'm glad there's people who don't feel that way.

rhill
6th January 2010, 02:33 PM
Marty's habit is not to mention the confidential materials in public writings.

Therefore, when he states (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/) "censorship should have no place in a civilized society," he contradicts himself. Censorship is one of Scientology's building block.

Censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of ideas and information that certain persons -- individuals, groups or government officials -- find objectionable or dangerous"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/whodecides/definitions.html

Zinjifar
6th January 2010, 03:20 PM
Therefore, when he states (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/) "censorship should have no place in a civilized society," he contradicts himself. Censorship is one of Scientology's building block.

Censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of ideas and information that certain persons -- individuals, groups or government officials -- find objectionable or dangerous"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/whodecides/definitions.html

Scientology/Civilization?

"I tell you Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the party holds to be truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party."

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever." - George Orwell

Zinj

Veda
6th January 2010, 05:00 PM
First of all, whenever anyone tells their own story, they are always selling or promoting themselves in one way or another whether they realize it or not. I don't see that as a bad thing unless they're lying, and I don't see anything here that strikes me as the kind of flat-out lie that Aaron accuses Marty of.

Marty's habit is not to mention the confidential materials in public writings. Some techies feel like that, and I don't personally have a problem with it, though I'd rather people discussed them, so I'm glad there's people who don't feel that way.

Marty is lying in his promotion of himself and his promotion of Scientology. Don't want to argue about it. If someone has a floating needle on Marty - or (gosh!) a floating TA - then so be it.

The confidential material of note is not anything related to the Grade Chart. One of the difficulties with mentioning "confidential material" is that - despite explanations easily accessible on the Net for years - some will automatically assume that it's a reference only to confidential Grade Chart-related material.

I didn't specifically explain that Scientology has a hidden data line, and has had one since the 1960s (1950s really), and that Scientology, per its founders instructions, is patterned after an organized crime operation.

Despite at least some of this material - *not* related to the Grade Chart - being available for examination, people, who, by now, should know better, think that when "confidential material" is mentioned, that that means only "Xenu stuff," etc.

Scientology puts the Grade Chart on a wall, and puts the Green Volumes and the Red Volumes and books on a table, and tells people that's Scientology.

But that's *cover*.

Marty knows that and isn't letting on.

That's called lying.

Zinjifar
6th January 2010, 05:13 PM
Marty knows that and isn't letting on.

That's called lying.

Marty knows that Standard Operations within Scientology are from Ron. Marty knows that the abuse in the Sea Org is systemic and only exacerbated by the foibles of David Miscavige. Marty knows what he and his cronies did (and, what others are still doing.) Marty knows what Scientology did to Paulette Cooper and dozens if not hundreds of others.

It's very likely that many of his current batch of sycophants and adoring followers do *not* know the truth behind Marty's lies, although, there's a level of deliberate ignorance that can't be denied. But, Marty knows better.

Zinj

slimjim
6th January 2010, 07:25 PM
How Marty tells it is like, he's the only one who truly truly really and truly knows and understands the tech and never fell asleep and nobody else can hold a candle to him so he's obviously THE top dog that anyone should listen to, trust, and go to. All the others are failures. Marty is really good guy #1.... Onist.

Scuse me while I remove the barf from between the keys on my board.

Voltaire's Child
6th January 2010, 08:43 PM
Well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.

Just sayin'.

bts2free
6th January 2010, 08:58 PM
Yeah, true Fluffy, but he's the only one who's really trying to sell it. How many critics do you know who are still offering Scientology services or, I guess it would have to be critic services or something? Critics 'R Us?

Zinjifar
6th January 2010, 09:01 PM
Same old same old. 'They do it too; it's all the same'

Zinj

Voltaire's Child
6th January 2010, 09:13 PM
Yeah, true Fluffy, but he's the only one who's really trying to sell it. How many critics do you know who are still offering Scientology services or, I guess it would have to be critic services or something? Critics 'R Us?

Good point. Not so many. A few Free Zoners but most tend to be longer on humility than Marty. (and, yes, I do consider some FZers to be critics. Not all of 'em are, but some are.)

Voltaire's Child
6th January 2010, 09:14 PM
Same old same old. 'They do it too; it's all the same'

Zinj

Well, since it's not what I thought, implied or wrote, I don't see how it can be "same old same old". Perhaps you should put down the glass or bottle or whatever it is.

rhill
6th January 2010, 11:04 PM
Well, since it's not what I thought, implied or wrote, I don't see how it can be "same old same old".

That's the problem (or convenience) with "weasel words," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word) one can always hurl back -- right or wrong -- that people got wrong what one was saying. Best is to avoid weaseling.

Voltaire's Child
6th January 2010, 11:05 PM
That's the problem (or convenience) with "weasel words," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word) one can always hurl back -- right or wrong -- that people got wrong what one was saying. Best is to avoid weaseling.

I post what I mean and what I don't say, I don't say. I've been on these forums 12 years, I know what the fuck I'm doing and I don't need your slimy little insinuations. If you've got some kind of beef, get off your ass, man up and say what it is. If you can.

rhill
6th January 2010, 11:37 PM
I post what I mean and what I don't say, I don't say. I've been on these forums 12 years, I know what the fuck I'm doing and I don't need your slimy little insinuations. If you've got some kind of beef, get off your ass, man up and say what it is. If you can.

"Insinuations"? I thought it was pretty clear that I thought your post was "weaseling."


if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums

Weasel word: "Weasel words is an informal term for words and phrases that, whilst communicating a vague or ambiguous claim, create an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said."

You say Zinj didn't get what you were saying. No matter how often I read your post, I really also don't get the point you were trying to make, because it's vague and ambiguous.

(Btw, it might be a cultural thing, but "man up" (or other version like "grow balls," etc.) always sounded silly to me, as if only males are reference model of courage.)

thetanic
6th January 2010, 11:45 PM
Therefore, when he states (http://martyrathbun09.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/censorship/) "censorship should have no place in a civilized society," he contradicts himself. Censorship is one of Scientology's building block.

Censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of ideas and information that certain persons -- individuals, groups or government officials -- find objectionable or dangerous"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/whodecides/definitions.html

Censorship is censoring OTHERS from saying those things, not making a choice what to speak about or not speak about.

I don't talk about my so-called past lives experiences now that I'm out of Scn, but it ain't censorship. In my case, it's not wanting to feel like a blithering idiot....

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 12:42 AM
"Insinuations"? I thought it was pretty clear that I thought your post was "weaseling.".

Well, you've said it NOW. And of course I knew what your insinuation was, before. Which is why I responded as I have.

And, of course, my post was not "weaseling". See, that's the problem (or convenience) with having an axe to grind against another contributor and posting from that vantage point- one can just fling such accusations around. No responses or clarifications are ok, because, you see, they can just be called "weaseling". It's very convenient.




Weasel word: "Weasel words is an informal term for words and phrases that, whilst communicating a vague or ambiguous claim, create an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said."

You say Zinj didn't get what you were saying. No matter how often I read your post, I really also don't get the point you were trying to make, because it's vague and ambiguous.

If you did not get the point I was making, then that's your problem. Instead of flinging around accusations, you could have asked what I meant. But you were in fault finding mode and decided to be nasty.

As I said, I've been on forums for 12 years, I know what the fuck I'm doing. What I say I say, what isn't there, isn't there. Either piss off or ask a question if you think elucidation is needed. But flinging ad hom accusations will get you nowhere.

AnonyMary
7th January 2010, 12:46 AM
Well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.

Just sayin'.

Oh, what you're said is very clear to me.You're just not naming the many many names of those 'only ones', right? Perhaps you were being too general, Claire?

Only problem with the what you said about Marty is that the commonality would be completely missed by Marty. He's very egocentric in what he writes. He also speaks of those 'critics' are "haters" or "agents of DM". Perhaps he's being too general, too?

Just s/t to consider.

Sad to see u arguing with and speaking so harshly to Ray Hill (http://www.xenu-directory.net), one of the hardest working helpful critical resources in the history of the movement exposing Scientology on the internet.

thetanic
7th January 2010, 01:03 AM
He's very egocentric in what he writes.

It's an entry from a freakin' personal blog. Personal blogs are supposed to be about "me, me, me."

rhill
7th January 2010, 01:07 AM
Censorship is censoring OTHERS from saying those things, not making a choice what to speak about or not speak about.

I don't talk about my so-called past lives experiences now that I'm out of Scn, but it ain't censorship. In my case, it's not wanting to feel like a blithering idiot....

Here is a definition I found over at PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/whodecides/definitions.html), which matches my well opinion (my emphasis):


Censorship is a word of many meanings. In its broadest sense it refers to suppression of information, ideas, or artistic expression by anyone, whether government officials, church authorities, private pressure groups, or speakers, writers, and artists themselves.

That matches pretty well what he is doing: He is not accepting all comments on his blog, but you wouldn't know, because he won't tell you what he didn't allow. Maybe it was something which would have provided an insight which might have proven 'inconvenient,' as in make Hubbard followers question not only Miscavige, but Hubbard as well?

I know the "it's his blog he does what he wants" mantra. Sure. He is free to engage in censorship on his blog. Others are free to point out that he is doing such.

In his case, it's particularly meaningful, because censorship is among the core problems that make Scientology dangerous: Closing the door to 'inconvenient' ideas by whoever is in position to decide for others. Thus there is no reason to believe Scientology under his rule would any be different: His censorship habit would move from blog level to organization level, by the look of it. And if history is any good indicator, the organization would grow censorship tentacles reaching out and trying to remove expression inconvenient to Hubbard 'teachings' from society. That's what Scientology teaches as the right thing to do.

It's manipulation when he goes on posting about how censorship is bad, and yet engage in censorship. Hubbard would be proud.

rhill
7th January 2010, 01:20 AM
[snip track record] But flinging ad hom accusations will get you nowhere.

Nothing "ad hom" in there. No matter how often I read your post, and how often I read the definition of "weasel words," I see a match ("vague and ambiguous".)

Let's see, I will try myself:


I'ma let you finish, but first, I just want to say that if many many critics feel they're the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give them something in common with MANY MANY MANY MANY people who post on newsgroups

What do you make of this?

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 01:33 AM
Oh, what you're said is very clear to me.You're just not naming the many many names of those 'only ones', right? Perhaps you were being too general, Claire?

I don't have to.


Only problem with the what you said about Marty is that the commonality would be completely missed by Marty. He's very egocentric in what he writes. He also speaks of those 'critics' are "haters" or "agents of DM". Perhaps he's being too general, too?

Just s/t to consider.

Maybe you should look at my response to Bts2free which was posted prior to two of R Hill's responses to me.

In any event, Zinj has made a habit of incorrectly summarizing stuff I say in order to bitch me out and I have both the option and the right to respond if someone does that as has happened here. Don't like it or don't see why it's done? Then either don't read it or politely ask for clarification.


Sad to see u arguing with and speaking so harshly to Ray Hill (http://www.xenu-directory.net), one of the hardest working helpful critical resources in the history of the movement exposing Scientology on the internet.

Those who don't jump my shit don't get argued with or "spoken so harshly" to. I wouldn't care if this guy was the pope and the president all rolled into one. If he jumps my shit, then I'll take it up with him.

HTH.

Don't jump my shit and you won't have a problem.

You yourself have spoken harshly to and about long time critics- quite recently, in fact. Need I say more?

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 01:39 AM
Nothing "ad hom" in there. No matter how often I read your post, and how often I read the definition of "weasel words," I see a match ("vague and ambiguous".)

Let's see, I will try myself:



What do you make of this?

Uh huh. Accusations of weasel words is always meant in an amiable expository fashion. No ad homs or nuttin'. And CofS is a benign organization that charges peanuts and keeps families together and clouds are plaid and cows say "meow".

It's an inflammatory term and it's never used in any other way. Ever.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 01:40 AM
My posts say what they say. If commentary is not there, then it's not there. Period.

rhill
7th January 2010, 01:50 AM
I wouldn't care if this guy was the pope and the president all rolled into one. If he jumps my shit, then I'll take it up with him.

Perfect, I like it this way. It's not a good feeling when we want to say something but refrain from doing so because of some intangible "status" getting in the way, or awkward when we feel people are not speaking up their mind because of some intangible 'status' arbitrarily attached to us.


Don't jump my shit and you won't have a problem.

Well, if people get into trouble when they jump your shit- that's not good but it would give you something in common with MANY MANY Scientologists who don't like their Scientology shit to be jumped.

Just sayin'.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 01:57 AM
Non sequitur. I'm not a Scn'ist.

I don't like having words put in my mouth, I don't like being denigrated or accused of using weasel words. I have this in common with roughly 99.999999% of critics of Scientology and of CofS.

rhill
7th January 2010, 02:42 AM
I don't like having words put in my mouth, I don't like being denigrated or accused of using weasel words. I have this in common with roughly 99.999999% of critics of Scientology and of CofS.

For what it's worth, I learned the concept of "weaseling" over at Wikipedia when I was trying to be a contributor (it taught me much.) I can't tell for sure, but maybe someone someday pointed out to me that "vague and ambiguous" is "weaseling" (or maybe I just read the guidelines, can't remember) and needs to be avoided in order to improve the quality of articles, or in other words, the quality of the message, and to root out as much bias as possible from our writings. I didn't think there was anything to be offended. Really, it's a useful advice. It's a common trap we fall in if we are not careful.

Now when I post something, whether I succeed or not, I do look for these "weasel words" to root them out.

If you carefully read the whole article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word), "many many critics" falls into the category, and uppercase "MANY MANY" emphasize further the weaseling.

It's as if you are saying, indirectly, through weaseling, "most critics feels they are the only one who really and truly understand." (How much is "MANY MANY"?) Sorry, but I can't see how someone can agree with that.

AnonyMary
7th January 2010, 03:54 AM
You yourself have spoken harshly to and about long time critics- quite recently, in fact. Need I say more?

When I see people on Scn related forums being called critics, I go by definition # 2 below. Although I have no specific idea who you are taking about at the moment, I suspect that the people you are accusing me of having 'spoken harshly to and about being long time critics, quite recently in fact' are people that I consider to be defined by definition # 3 more than definition #2.

Definitions of critic on the Web:

1 •a person who is professionally engaged in the analysis and interpretation of works of art
2 •anyone who expresses a reasoned judgment of something
3 •someone who frequently finds fault or makes harsh and unfair judgments
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I don't argue with people when I can help it and I don't ever go out of my way to to say anything to people ( who shall remain nameless ) who attack me just for fun. But I have and probably will continue to stand up for someone or something that is being harshly and unfairly judged or mocked, because that for me is the right thing to do.

Where as I go out of my way to avoid arguements, especially with people who go out of their way to bait me into an arguement, you, on the other hand, seem to enjoy the challanges of an arguement because I've seen you robustly in more than just a few over the past years, although less often in recent months.

I expressed my opinion. I did it without throwing mean words your way, Claire. I tried to be diplomatic. I was not being sarcastic. It can be hard to NOT be mean when I feel like being mean because it's so tempting, especially when I see a rude statement about someone I respect or have mean statements levied at me. I'm from NYC, Claire, where people cut with words at the drop of a hat, but I am mindful of that and go out of my way to NOT say mean and hurtful words because karma is a bitch.

So, just as that is your right, I have my right to say what I want. That it upsets you that I defend what or whom I think is honorable and right by my own standards is your problem. Not mine.

exccc
7th January 2010, 05:43 AM
Marty's efforts are counter to exposing the CofS for what it is. The more that can be posted about his lies and deceit, then hopefully the more "supporters" of his will wake up to the fact of who and what they are supporting.

Little late to this. Sorry.

Reading the above, I had a thought: What if he's actually on a mission?

Of course, that would entail DM being somewhat pan-determined. He'd have to have the attitude, "let 'em focus all their criticism on me so as to leave the Church out of it."

I doubt he can let go of his ego to this degree, but it's an idea...

exccc
7th January 2010, 05:50 AM
So it would seem to me that Mr.Rathbun has not so much left the official Church of Scientology, as he being on a 'Mission'..

A 'Mission' to recover and salvage the wreck of Scientology, whose brand-name and PR is FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond Any Repair).. The recovery attempt to make it look like a 'revolution' takes place inside the cult. Where the 'good guys' win, and hence the 'cult' is good again. All the crimes of the past forgotten. Was the evil old crew who did all that!

There's an outline of Hubbards 'Power Change Formula' visible through the fog of obfuscation I think..

Hmm.. Miscavige is obviously the 'fallguy' in this scenario.. Would he perform that part? - He IS a hardcore SO Fool on the Hill 10! - Remember that.

Well.. Possibly Mr.Rathbun is doing this on his own.. Ie. Without DM being in on it.. But I don't think so.


Seems we had the same thought. I love the idea for the unadulterated HUBRIS of it. (And Scientology has nothing if it doesn't have a overabundance of hubris.)

The one flaw in the theory is that I don't think DM would play that part. Then again, who knows? Maybe he's sucked enough blood from the CoS and feels ready to move into the background... Doubtful, but possible.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 06:58 AM
Mary, nothing you can tell me about NY that I don't already know. I'm from not too far from there and that goes back several generations. My dad and his dad were born and raised in Flushing and I have ancestors who were tenant farmers where Broadway is now.

Re critics- A critic of Scn is someone who criticizes Scn, CofS, etc, whether you or I or the next guy over likes that person or not.

And I fully reject the idea that any critic or discussion group habituee should get better or worse treatment from me depending on who they are. I don't give altitude. Never did, really.

exccc
7th January 2010, 07:44 AM
Your affinity with Marty seems to be that you are both Techies. I too was a Techie, amongst other things. I grew up in Scientology as a child. I did the original Comm Course in the late 70's, I was trained as a Book One Auditor and audited. I read all of the basic books a number of times over, pre new "Basics", SoS even moreso. I even listened to all of the PDC, SHSBC, Phoenix lectures and many other series and congresses. I was trained up to Class IV. Did the Pro TRs Course twice. Did the PTS/SP Course 3 times. Was fully hatted as a Gold MAA, and De-PTSer. Was a 2nd Class Missionaire. Did the courses for OEC Vol 0,1,5,6 and 7. Was also on staff pre Sea Org and was fully hatted as Public Contact Sec for my org.

Does any of that make a difference for me now? Nope.

Once you leave the Scientology aquarium and see the real world on the outside, you realize that the whole time you were in Scientology, you were swimming with sharks. Sharks who had the Tech to enslave you and keep you stuck in the fish bowl to eat you.

Marty just happens to be one of those Great Whites I encountered while in the tank, and I'm just yelling "shark" to some of the swimmers still out in the water. Weather you want to stay in the water is up to you. Weather you believe there's even a shark there is also up to you. Is Marty now a Sunfish? Who knows?

You may have use for Scientology Tech. I don't. I saw it for what it really was when I woke up. I don't see how mind control technology can be used in any way to help people. But, that's just my own opinion.

People who allow themselves to float as hot lunches in the sea shouldn't be surprised if they're eaten. Especially when warned by the people who've lost limbs.

I can't seem to get away from analogies! :melodramatic:

This is very well stated, analogies and all. I'm not sure where I sit on all this, actually, but I like the way you expressed yourself.

I don't think it was all mind control. I look back and see Scn as a paradox. It frees minds on the one hand and enslaves them on the other. I admit, it's a tough concept to work with. If the tech can help people, how did it all go wrong?

Well, I really put the blame on LRH's ego. If he was a bit more tentative, if he hedged a bit, if he gave credit to others, if he was a bit more honest and humble, then he might be remembered as a genus instead of a laughing stock. But he let his ego get the best of him and that limited what he could accomplish and mixed his motivations. In fact, he had other fish to fry.

This caused his organization to be flawed and harmful. It is also true that not all the tech works like he said it would, but that doesn't mean none of it has value. OK, some stuff is just plain weird. Some is harmful and some is laughable. But not all of it. We all had wins. I had some really good ones. I don't dismiss that as invalid or delusional, not in the least.

Getting back to Marty. I suspect most of the flack he gets here is because he isn't the kind of ex-member we want him to be. If he would have come on this board humble and contrite and fed our curiosity with lurid details about DM and his own crimes, we'd have all forgiven him and welcomed him with open arms.

OK, he was the Darth Vader of RTC. I get that. But he isn't anymore. He was who he was and is who he is. He's gonna have to deal with the karma he created someday, whether he satisfies us or not. As long as he really is out, and not on some super-secret mission (which I don't really believe), I tend to say c'est la vie.

Zinjifar
7th January 2010, 07:59 AM
I don't think it was all mind control. I look back and see Scn as a paradox. It frees minds on the one hand and enslaves them on the other.

The way I'd see it is, Scientology gives you a set of techniques you can use to alter your mind/personality/habits, but, then gives the controls over to a bug-shit-crazy UFO Cult.

At this point though, I'm not very much in favor of even yourself having the 'controls' on any kind of short-cut basis, such as autohypnosis or even 'affirmations'.

Zinj

AnonyMary
7th January 2010, 06:00 PM
Mary, nothing you can tell me about NY that I don't already know. I'm from not too far from there and that goes back several generations. My dad and his dad were born and raised in Flushing and I have ancestors who were tenant farmers where Broadway is now.

That is irrevelant. I was talking about my potential ability to talk like a trash mouth because of having come from there and having talked like a truck driver for many of my early years when I was while there.I said it to illiustrate that I can restrain myself despite that.

Re critics- A critic of Scn is someone who criticizes Scn, CofS, etc, whether you or I or the next guy over likes that person or not.

Harshly and unfairly criticizing former members for no reason other than to just be mean, spiteful is, in my opinion, downright evil. When done, it has nothing to do with being a 'critic of scientology'. Also, of some of these supposed 'long time critics' you are not naming, I know of 3 on ARS who hardl;y if ever post anything critical of Scientology -only things critical of ' long time critics'. They are distractors and hate mongers in my opinion. Being a critic of scientology is about being objective and centered o the subject of scientology.

And I fully reject the idea that any critic or discussion group habituee should get better or worse treatment from me depending on who they are. I don't give altitude. Never did, really. I never said that. I was talking about respect. But since you 'don't give altitude' or consider that respect of the person and their efforts should be factored in when turning on the faucet, I suppose this explains why you get and stay in so many arguments the way you do. With that said, I am going to do with you what I do with posters who try to suck me into an arguement. I'm going to ignore you on this thread.

Mary

Pooks
7th January 2010, 06:20 PM
Mary, I'm going to have to ignore you on this thread because I really don't want to get an infraction.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 08:20 PM
Mary,

You came in and accosted ME. As did rhill. And whatever YOU bring up, I'm going to respond to. Such as the stuff about you and NY.

Don't like my responses? Then don't take me to task. Same with you, Ray.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 08:22 PM
Mary, I'm going to have to ignore you on this thread because I really don't want to get an infraction.


I love how it's ok for her and Ray to come in and say whatever but answering back is some kind of cardinal sin in Mary's book.

Just love it.

Challenge
7th January 2010, 09:01 PM
Mary


I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it?

challenge

thetanic
7th January 2010, 09:05 PM
Go to that person's profile and there's a dropdown menu called something like user tools.

rhill
7th January 2010, 09:05 PM
Same with you, Ray.

Yeah, thanks for the stern reminder, you mentioned this already (http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=356828&postcount=165): "Those who jump your shit, you will take it up with them." (paraphrased.) On the other hand, you just jump the "MANY MANY critics'" shit in such a vague way that none of them, whoever they are, will be able to take it up to you. I think I will stick to my way.

Pooks
7th January 2010, 09:21 PM
Ray's cool. Mary, not so much.

AnonyMary
7th January 2010, 09:25 PM
I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it?

challenge

The only 'Ignore Poster' button I know of is the one in my mind which I activate when I see the Red Distraction Flag. Sometimes I have to look hard for it, but it's always there if I decide to look. :wink2:

rhill
7th January 2010, 09:39 PM
I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it?

challenge

I found this one:

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss76/Hipoint2/IgnoreButton-1.jpg (http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh)

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 10:07 PM
I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it?

challenge

It's the same as on OCMB. It's easy.

And it's about time you used it. Jesus God. Should have used your killfile on a.r.s. 12 years ago and the ignore feature which has been on OCMB at least 5 years. It's better than targetting people all the time.

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 10:08 PM
Yeah, thanks for the stern reminder, you mentioned this already (http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=356828&postcount=165): "Those who jump your shit, you will take it up with them." (paraphrased.) On the other hand, you just jump the "MANY MANY critics'" shit in such a vague way that none of them, whoever they are, will be able to take it up to you. I think I will stick to my way.

Just don't worry about it, Ray. Don't use terms like weasel words unless you want to piss the person off.

slimjim
7th January 2010, 10:18 PM
I found this one:

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss76/Hipoint2/IgnoreButton-1.jpg (http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh)

Great! Thanks, I know just when to apply this. Love Ya Mary, stay cool and use that button, you too Rhill. Too many good things happening, and too many really good posters to listen to. :wink:

Zinjifar
7th January 2010, 10:20 PM
Just don't worry about it, Ray. Don't use terms like weasel words unless you want to piss the person off.

Who cares about pissing off those so inclined? It's not like they can actually *do* anything but make themselves look silly.

Zinj

slimjim
7th January 2010, 10:20 PM
Challenge, thanks for requesting the button, will be very useful for us! :D

Voltaire's Child
7th January 2010, 10:22 PM
Challenge, thanks for requesting the button, will be very useful for us! :D

The button's been there for years. I've used it several times. By the way, once you put s/one on ignore, they can't PM you, either. It just disappears into the ether.

Axiom142
7th January 2010, 11:19 PM
At the risk of re-igniting this ‘disagreement’, I’d like to make this observation.

VC said:


Well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.

Just sayin'.

Perhaps there is a suggestion of an unnecessary tautology there, but the meaning is clear and, IMHO, the statement is entirely justified.

Rhill said:


Nothing "ad hom" in there. No matter how often I read your post, and how often I read the definition of "weasel words," I see a match ("vague and ambiguous".)



‘Weasel words’ are defined as: “words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading” (Concise OED) The key word is 'intentionally'. People can often be ambiguous or misleading. Normally this is through carelessness, not maliciousness.

Given this, I disagree with rhill’s assertion that VC’s original statement used ‘weasel words’ and I agree with VC’s interpretation of this being a personal attack.

If someone suggested that I was using ‘weasel words’ I would be rather offended as I associate this term with one of the lowest forms of life extant on this planet - the politician.

Axiom142

AnonyMary
8th January 2010, 12:49 AM
I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it? challenge

Go to that person's profile and there's a dropdown menu called something like user tools.

Thanks. Never noticed that before as I never had a reason to until now.


I found this one:

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss76/Hipoint2/IgnoreButton-1.jpg (http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh)

:giggle:


Great! Thanks, I know just when to apply this. Love Ya Mary, stay cool and use that button, you too Rhill. Too many good things happening, and too many really good posters to listen to. :wink:

:thankyou:, Slim :) .. Will do, lol :

I found this one on the more Smile list: :ignore:, which is easier to access on a regular basis if needed!


At the risk of re-igniting this ‘disagreement’, I’d like to make this observation.

VC said:

Perhaps there is a suggestion of an unnecessary tautology there, but the meaning is clear and, IMHO, the statement is entirely justified.

Rhill said:

‘Weasel words’ are defined as: “words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading” (Concise OED) The key word is 'intentionally'. People can often be ambiguous or misleading. Normally this is through carelessness, not maliciousness.

Given this, I disagree with rhill’s assertion that VC’s original statement used ‘weasel words’ and I agree with VC’s interpretation of this being a personal attack.

If someone suggested that I was using ‘weasel words’ I would be rather offended as I associate this term with one of the lowest forms of life extant on this planet - the politician.

Axiom142

So, what do you think her intentions were behind her 'MANY MAMY MANY critics' comment? For the ' MANY MANY MANY critics' she posted of would probably like to know, myself included.

On second thought, in an effort to get this derailed thread back on track, for get about answering that.
-------------------

So, is Marty selling himself in this piece quoted by skullbunny?



http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=356237&postcount=141

I do suspect that if it went that way, it did so because DM was trying to kiss Marty's butt and prevent him from spilling the beans on all he knew since he was blown at the time.

I also believe that when he left the final time, he signed a nondisclosure agreement, hence one reason why he never owns up to the 'overts' he's committed against critics of the church that were attacked by his office under DM's orders.

Any opinons on that?

Zinjifar
8th January 2010, 01:17 AM
Any opinons on that?

Mine? If marty was *ever* a free operative and not a false flag, he and davey had MAD to protect them. Neither can be honest without both being dragged down into criminal prosecution.

But, in the meantime, I doubt that Marty was *ever* actually independent.

Zinj

Dulloldfart
8th January 2010, 01:38 AM
I have searched everywhere for an 'Ignore' button. I don't want to Ignore Thread", I want to 'Ignore Poster'.
How do I do it?

challenge

Click on the person's user name at the top left of one of their posts. This will give a drop-down menu. One of the options is something like "Add poster to your ignore list". Click that and follow the instructions. They won't disappear off the face of the message board for you but their posts will (apart from the ones quoted by other posters).

Paul

exccc
8th January 2010, 03:21 AM
At this point though, I'm not very much in favor of even yourself having the 'controls' on any kind of short-cut basis, such as autohypnosis or even 'affirmations'.

Zinj

Basically, I agree, but I wouldn't include affirmations, which have been used for millennia in such things as Buddhist/Hindu chants, etc., as long as the "subject," in this case, self, is fully aware of the process.

AnonyMary
8th January 2010, 03:39 AM
Mine? If marty was *ever* a free operative and not a false flag, he and davey had MAD to protect them. Neither can be honest without both being dragged down into criminal prosecution.

But, in the meantime, I doubt that Marty was *ever* actually independent.

Zinj

I'd tend to agree with you but I don't know what you mean by the term MAD

rhill
8th January 2010, 04:24 AM
I'd tend to agree with you but I don't know what you mean by the term MAD

I'm not sure, but it does fit Mutual Auto Destruction.

Bullwinkle
8th January 2010, 04:37 AM
I'm not sure, but it does fit Mutual Auto Destruction.

I think it's "Mutually Assured Destruction."

degraded being
8th January 2010, 04:38 AM
I'm not sure, but it does fit Mutual Auto Destruction.

....or Many Arseholes Deployed?

Voltaire's Child
8th January 2010, 04:49 AM
Well, my intentions were to post something here on this thread. No grand conspiracy. I am not a Marty fan at all, but I do think that some of the criticism that comes his way is not truly valid or feasible. I think that some of the things said about him are things that, when other people do them, nobody says one thing about. It's one of the things I've noticed in the critic's movement and I think it's something one can find in other critical venues (other than re Scn, CofS, Hubbard) such as politics and so forth. That if someone is in the bad graces of those who are criticizing him or her, that just about any criticism is considered valid- even those that do not make sense. In the course of my life including 12 years on Scn critical fora, I've seen a number of arguments made that clearly came from a double standard.

I don't care if he's found red handed with Col Mustard in the frigging library- accusing him of something so many critics themselves do is just stupid ill informed inconsistent hypocritical criticism. Criticize him for what he really did and really does. Shouldn't be that hard to find something- in fact, many other critics have posted specific and salient details of things Marty has said that concern them. But wittering on and on about stupid infinitesimal quirks he shares with roughly 50% of you while giving yourselves a free pass? Yeah, bite me.

You guys need to read more HelluvaHoax.

TheSneakster
8th January 2010, 04:56 AM
Well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.


Oh, what you're said is very clear to me.You're just not naming the many many names of those 'only ones', right? Perhaps you were being too general, Claire?

She may not name names here as that would constitute personal attack and an infraction-able ESMB Rule #1 violation, Mary.

Inclusion or exclusion from the class V.C. speaks of - critics who feel they are they only one who really and truly understands - should be evident from posting histories and doesn't really require any more specification than that.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous. I *do* forgive.

AnonyMary
8th January 2010, 04:57 AM
Thanks to you both on the MAD abbreviations. I get the idea now, lol

Cherished
8th January 2010, 05:14 AM
Well, my intentions were to post something here on this thread. No grand conspiracy. I am not a Marty fan at all, but I do think that some of the criticism that comes his way is not truly valid or feasible. I think that some of the things said about him are things that, when other people do them, nobody says one thing about. It's one of the things I've noticed in the critic's movement and I think it's something one can find in other critical venues (other than re Scn, CofS, Hubbard) such as politics and so forth. That if someone is in the bad graces of those who are criticizing him or her, that just about any criticism is considered valid- even those that do not make sense. In the course of my life including 12 years on Scn critical fora, I've seen a number of arguments made that clearly came from a double standard.

I don't care if he's found red handed with Col Mustard in the frigging library- accusing him of something so many critics themselves do is just stupid ill informed inconsistent hypocritical criticism. Criticize him for what he really did and really does. Shouldn't be that hard to find something- in fact, many other critics have posted specific and salient details of things Marty has said that concern them. But wittering on and on about stupid infinitesimal quirks he shares with roughly 50% of you while giving yourselves a free pass? Yeah, bite me.

You guys need to read more HelluvaHoax.

We are all prone to this hypocrisy, if we aren't careful. Jesus spoke of it 2100 years ago when he said:


Matthew 7

1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Voltaire's Child
8th January 2010, 05:19 AM
True. It can be difficult. And understand this- I'm fine with people expressing trepidation or concern or whatever re Marty Rathbun. I just didn't like the inconsistency and the nitpicky crap.

You'll never see Blownforgood or anyone like that posting bullshit like that. And those are the sorts of people who really get things done in Scn criticism.

Zinjifar
8th January 2010, 06:05 AM
I'd tend to agree with you but I don't know what you mean by the term MAD

I did mean Mutually Assured Destruction, that wonderful system that saved us from WWIII, at least on a global basis.

In re: Marty/Davey, neither can afford to really damage the other without being assured of his own destruction.

Zinj

AnonyMary
8th January 2010, 06:29 AM
I did mean Mutually Assured Destruction, that wonderful system that saved us from WWIII, at least on a global basis.

In re: Marty/Davey, neither can afford to really damage the other without being assured of his own destruction.

Zinj

That says it all, really. That's why he's not going anywhere near the acts they committed. Thank you.

Mary

Challenge
8th January 2010, 08:15 AM
I found this one:

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss76/Hipoint2/IgnoreButton-1.jpg (http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh)

Hey, Ray!
well I pressed and pressed the red button and nothing happened.
I'll keep trying.

challenge

Challenge
8th January 2010, 08:22 AM
Thanks all of y'all for telling me how to find the "Ignore Poster" button.
After 15 years on critical boards you would think that I would know how to drop someone in the "Bozo Bin", as it has been labelled by others than myself. I always thought it was a bit cowardly and 'non-confront' to "plonk" another poster, but at my advanced age ( 79 next month), I find my tolerance at end.

Challenge

AnonyMary
9th January 2010, 02:11 AM
Thanks all of y'all for telling me how to find the "Ignore Poster" button.
After 15 years on critical boards you would think that I would know how to drop someone in the "Bozo Bin", as it has been labelled by others than myself. I always thought it was a bit cowardly and 'non-confront' to "plonk" another poster, but at my advanced age ( 79 next month), I find my tolerance at end.

Challenge

Wow! :cheers2:on the upcoming birthday!

lionheart
14th January 2010, 01:30 PM
Who cares about pissing off those so inclined? It's not like they can actually *do* anything but make themselves look silly.

Zinj

And while looking silly, also succeed in derailing threads!

I returned to this thread and was disappointed to see it move from a focus on Rathbun to a focus on "many many critics" which is simply a dispersal.

There is no need for anyone to reply saying threads will and do meander. I know that and pointing it out would be a further diversion.

Glad to see it eventually resolved back to focussing on Rathbun.

I love that MAD idea that Rathbun and Miscavige will refrain from destruction of the other, because it would also assure self-destruction.

Either one of them tries to get the other jailed and so they both go to jail or neither of them do, so there is a covert agreement of not going to the authorities.

So both Rathbun and Miscavige try to squash the Aussie enquiry! :duh:

Voltaire's Child
14th January 2010, 04:08 PM
Lionheart,

A person is certainly free to make an observation comparing criticism of Rathbun to inconsistency. If that's a problem for anyone, then they haven't been around forums very long and/or don't know how they work.

How many threads have you segued over to comments about various things?

We all have our points to make. If anyone derailed the thread, it's those who threw tantrums about my observation instead of either ignoring it or discussing it in a logical fashion. All I wrote was
Well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.

I explained exactly why I wrote what I wrote and it was completely relevant.

and here is that explanation


I am not a Marty fan at all, but I do think that some of the criticism that comes his way is not truly valid or feasible. I think that some of the things said about him are things that, when other people do them, nobody says one thing about. It's one of the things I've noticed in the critic's movement and I think it's something one can find in other critical venues (other than re Scn, CofS, Hubbard) such as politics and so forth. That if someone is in the bad graces of those who are criticizing him or her, that just about any criticism is considered valid- even those that do not make sense. In the course of my life including 12 years on Scn critical fora, I've seen a number of arguments made that clearly came from a double standard.

I don't care if he's found red handed with Col Mustard in the frigging library- accusing him of something so many critics themselves do is just stupid ill informed inconsistent hypocritical criticism. Criticize him for what he really did and really does. Shouldn't be that hard to find something- in fact, many other critics have posted specific and salient details of things Marty has said that concern them. But wittering on and on about stupid infinitesimal quirks he shares with roughly 50% of you while giving yourselves a free pass? Yeah, bite me.

Complaining about threads that don't go the way YOU want them to does far more to waste time than someone posting a thought. My thoughts are not your thoughts. That's how it works in discussion forum land.

lionheart
17th January 2010, 01:38 PM
Lionheart,

A person is certainly free to make an observation comparing criticism of Rathbun to inconsistency. If that's a problem for anyone, then they haven't been around forums very long and/or don't know how they work.

How many threads have you segued over to comments about various things?

We all have our points to make. If anyone derailed the thread, it's those who threw tantrums about my observation instead of either ignoring it or discussing it in a logical fashion. All I wrote was

I explained exactly why I wrote what I wrote and it was completely relevant.

and here is that explanation



Complaining about threads that don't go the way YOU want them to does far more to waste time than someone posting a thought. My thoughts are not your thoughts. That's how it works in discussion forum land.

QED. My point is proven.

So back to Rathbun and his lies.....

Voltaire's Child
17th January 2010, 05:28 PM
Well, you dug up the thread after it had lain dormant for some time.

So if you wanted to discuss Rathbun and his lies, you should not have made the potshots.

So since YOU reactivated and made reference to what I said, I'll just reiterate it:

well, if Marty feels he's the only one who really and truly understands- that's not good but it would give him something in common with MANY MANY critics who post on critical forums.

I am not a Marty fan at all, but I do think that some of the criticism that comes his way is not truly valid or feasible. I think that some of the things said about him are things that, when other people do them, nobody says one thing about. It's one of the things I've noticed in the critic's movement and I think it's something one can find in other critical venues (other than re Scn, CofS, Hubbard) such as politics and so forth. That if someone is in the bad graces of those who are criticizing him or her, that just about any criticism is considered valid- even those that do not make sense. In the course of my life including 12 years on Scn critical fora, I've seen a number of arguments made that clearly came from a double standard.

I don't care if he's found red handed with Col Mustard in the frigging library- accusing him of something so many critics themselves do is just stupid ill informed inconsistent hypocritical criticism. Criticize him for what he really did and really does. Shouldn't be that hard to find something- in fact, many other critics have posted specific and salient details of things Marty has said that concern them. But wittering on and on about stupid infinitesimal quirks he shares with roughly 50% of you while giving yourselves a free pass? Yeah, bite me.