What Went Wrong !?

[phoenix]

So....
it looks like that Division 5.... which is the Qualifications Division.... is also the divison of CORRECTION.....
infact there is a whole department dedicated to 'CORRECTION'

Ron speaks of this organisation as being the first organisation that is able to self-correct....

wow!

only.... it doesnt.

it has reduced itself to correcting errors in students etc.... no no...
this is the division where the entire org can realign itself to ... what is needed and wanted.... and present it.....

now.... in the aerly 1980's thousands of good scientologists left....
because of Prices and the religious technology centre using rons signiture as a trademark and then releasing documents as if they were from Ron.....

however a major consideration is PRICES...
these are suppresive to the widespread usage of dianetics and scientology.
£30,000 pounds or so for the special briefing course.
Ron speaks that wisdom is traditionally free... infact in his words.... lets keep it that way.
however...... if we are opperating with phisical universe mechanics... yeas okay lets charge some.... notice the word SOME.
£10 per hour ?
£20 maybe.
not £500 !!!

get real.

now.....
In speaking this... am I in need of correction ? or the church ?
you see
these are genuine concerns that are not based on case.
as many rants of ex scientologists are.
no... this is genuine concern that the Creation of a new civilisation is 'hindered' by unrealistic pricing.

there is no self correction of the organisation.

nor I might add... of its Aesthetic relationship to its advertising.
exchanging 'Glitzy' 'Gloss' for true aesthetics of freedom and fun... trully demonstrating the high wavelength of laughter and light hearted breaking away and dropping old mechanics...

we are the holders of utter utter fantastic Technology....
and Ron...
Rons words...
courses...
oh man... does this stuff wee wee all over aroma therapy...
man have we got more that every ology on well... anyfink!

so....

CAN the orgs begin to ACTUALLY CORRECT THEMSELVES as RON says they can.?

(joined Sea Org 1978, founding member, clear, OT111, and resigned in 1983)

[Dulloldfart]

CAN the orgs begin to ACTUALLY CORRECT THEMSELVES as RON says they can.?


No.

Paul

[Zinjifar]

Ron said a *lot* of stuff

Zinj

[Winston Smith]

Ron said a *lot* of stuff

Zinj

Ever notice that Ron, along with his rotted teeth, never came back? Phoenix, you have been conned.

[Type4_PTS]

CAN the orgs begin to ACTUALLY CORRECT THEMSELVES as RON says they can.?


I'm gonna pull out my Magic 8-Ball and see what it says:

*Shake* *Shake* *Shake*

Answer: Outlook not so good.

[FinallyMe]

You are SO right, Phoenix - what you have noted is exactly what I think.

However, I think that prices constitute only a VERY minor part of MANY huge offenses. Set against the true abuses perpetrated by the CoS -- oh, for instance, forced abortions, physical beatings, locking small children in a chain locker -- the pricing would not be the first thing I would focus on to clean up.

Patte Monaco

[Mark A. Baker]

CAN the orgs begin to ACTUALLY CORRECT THEMSELVES as RON says they can.?

(joined Sea Org 1978, founding member, clear, OT111, and resigned in 1983)

Qual is in fact a wonderful concept. The problem lies in the inherent lack of a means for correction at the top of the pyramid. It was always harder to get a senior corrected than a junior or a colleague. :coolwink:

Hubbard NEVER acknowledged a need for external correction of himself. He did not accept "checks" on his own actions. Thus his organization lacked any such capacity from its inception. What the Co$ NEEDS is external auditing.

DM has inherited this "papal infallibility" along with the institutions of the church. He uses it in much the same way as Hubbard did, although with considerably less elan or intelligence.


Mark A. Baker
p.s. Having joined the SO in '78 how can you be a "founding member" of the SO when it was established in the early-mid '60s?

[thetanic]

p.s. Having joined the SO in '78 how can you be a "founding member" of the SO when it was established in the early-mid '60s?

I read it as IAS founding member.

[nexus100]

Qual is in fact a wonderful concept. The problem lies in the inherent lack of a means for correction at the top of the pyramid. It was always harder to get a senior corrected than a junior or a colleague. :coolwink:

Hubbard NEVER acknowledged a need for external correction of himself. He did not accept "checks" on his own actions. Thus his organization lacked any such capacity from its inception. What the Co$ NEEDS is external auditing.

DM has inherited this "papal infallibility" along with the institutions of the church. He uses it in much the same way as Hubbard did, although with considerably less elan or intelligence.


Mark A. Baker
p.s. Having joined the SO in '78 how can you be a "founding member" of the SO when it was established in the early-mid '60s?

So even though it doesn't "work" Qual is a wonderful concept!

[Zinjifar]

So even though it doesn't "work" Qual is a wonderful concept!

'Qual', Quality Control, Trial and Error, the Scientific Method, peer review etc. are *all* wonderful concepts, but, they're of no use to Scientology because, applied honestly, there would be no Scientology.

'Revealed Truth' needs no 'qual'.

Zinj

[nexus100]

'Qual', Quality Control, Trial and Error, the Scientific Method, peer review etc. are *all* wonderful concepts, but, they're of no use to Scientology because, applied honestly, there would be no Scientology.

'Revealed Truth' needs no 'qual'.

Zinj

Quality control "works" because it isn't applied to people. :) When it is, it doesn't work, for the reason Mark states. Them higher ups jus' don' git it!

[Zinjifar]

'Qual' is german for torture.

Zinj

[Mark A. Baker]

So even though it doesn't "work" Qual is a wonderful concept!

That's right. So the important thing is to make it work. :)

1st: Proof of concept
2nd: Working prototype
3rd: Deliverable Product

The means to self-correct and ensure quality is essential to any ongoing operation. That is the intended function of Qual. In some times & places it even managed to work that way. :)


Mark A. Baker

[nexus100]

That's right. So the important thing is to make it work. :)

1st: Proof of concept
2nd: Working prototype
3rd: Deliverable Product

The means to self-correct and ensure quality is essential to any ongoing operation. That is the intended function of Qual. In some times & places it even managed to work that way. :)


Mark A. Baker

As stated above, PEOPLE aren't products. :) Quality control is a good idea in any other operation, admittedly.

[Mark A. Baker]

As stated above, PEOPLE aren't products. :) Quality control is a good idea in any other operation, admittedly.

Quality control is routinely applied to people. Got a college degree? Can you practice medicine? Are you certified as a pilot?

Quality control with regard to people is typically of the order of "meets a minimum standard". Unlike general production "uniformity of product" is NOT a viable goal. But "minimum standards" can be quite selective. Try applying for admission to the Harvard Law School. :)


Mark A. Baker

[nexus100]

Quality control is routinely applied to people. Got a college degree? Can you practice medicine? Are you certified as a pilot?

Quality control with regard to people is typically of the order of "meets a minimum standard". Unlike general production "uniformity of product" is NOT a viable goal. But "minimum standards" can be quite selective. Try applying for admission to the Harvard Law School. :)


Mark A. Baker

The practice of medicine applies to the condition of a patient not the beingness of the doctor as a doctor. A test standard for Harvard Law School applies to the test. Scientology applies a standard to who one is. Not practical to my point of view.

[OldTimingMan]

Money makes a difference. If scilon bridge wasn't frightfully expensive, you would have had many more people go through lines to chase the carrot. End result would still be disappointment, disillusion, though a lower price point.

Maybe scilontology wants to limit the suckers to a smaller, manageable number to keep them quiet, so that the "whales" come in with the big billfolds.

[Zinjifar]

Money makes a difference. If scilon bridge wasn't frightfully expensive, you would have had many more people go through lines to chase the carrot. End result would still be disappointment, disillusion, though a lower price point.

Maybe scilontology wants to limit the suckers to a smaller, manageable number to keep them quiet, so that the "whales" come in with the big billfolds.

I think they're scraping the bottom of the barrel. GI has to be kept up, and, with fewer mooches, it's harder to do, but, wait, there's *more*!

When people leave, after having paid all they can, they leave voluntarily, meaning, that the 'Church' is no longer on the hook for their dissatisfaction.

Come the big lawsuits, they can claim, 'Oh no! Wait, we didn't throw them out, they *left*!'

Zinj

[Carmel]

The orgs *could* correct themselves. There is plenty of policy and tech that could be used, maybe even *should* be used ( :whistling: ) to do so.......Trouble is though, they aren't permitted to do so, and it would seem that there was never any intention from the top for them to do so.

From what I saw and experienced, ANYBODY who used tech or policy at hand to correct the orgs, got hauled over the coals - It's so good now to understand why the fuck that was.

[Human Again]

NO, because Quality Control is run on Quantity states and Junior to production. Which is everything in an org.

[Dulloldfart]

p.s. Having joined the SO in '78 how can you be a "founding member" of the SO when it was established in the early-mid '60s?

I remember some Founding Member bullshit in that time period. I believe it came out of some eval and the idea was to validate some SO members who had joined the SO by some particular date (it included me). It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time, and no-one seemed to perceive it as worth much, so it got very quickly forgotten about.

I thought.

Paul

[Kookaburra]

Scientology "Ethics" has been used to successfully prevent any correction. There is effectively NO internal correction, members get clobbered for even thinking about it.

So the correction function will be and is external. The society at large is taking on the qual function. Anonymous, governments, and exes are doing the job and will put the beast out of its misery in the process.

[degraded being]

The orgs *could* correct themselves. There is plenty of policy and tech that could be used, maybe even *should* be used ( :whistling: ) to do so.......Trouble is though, they aren't permitted to do so, and it would seem that there was never any intention from the top for them to do so.

From what I saw and experienced, ANYBODY who used tech or policy at hand to correct the orgs, got hauled over the coals - It's so good now to understand why the fuck that was.

Even if they were permitted, who decides which of conflicting policies will be used? - Which policy "should" be used. Policy versus policy, policy versus senior execs or groups of senior execs who have Flag Orders; and OSA with their onion-layers of what will be done or not done (OSA can move quietly into the HGC and get a pc off lines if it suits them).
Policy versus KSW - that can probably be used in lots of ways to *not apply* policy.
*The good guys* will of course use policy and tech fairly and sensibly and in a way which will truly be the "greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics". But *the good guys* can fuck up. And who exactly *the good guys* are is a matter of opinion.

[Type4_PTS]

Even if they were permitted, who decides which of conflicting policies will be used? - Which policy "should" be used.

I believe that there are real ways to resolve the policy conflicts and determine which ones to apply in various situations. But there are much more serious issues within the CoS. They will never be able to deliver what is promised to the paying public (which is supposedly a senior policy) because they don't have the tech to produce real clears and OT's. Even if they get rid of DM and put sane leaders in place, they're still going to have that problem.

[Mystic]

The great mistake of the "Qual Division" was it used the spewings of Lips Hubbard with which to correct.

[Ted]

I remember some Founding Member bullshit in that time period. I believe it came out of some eval and the idea was to validate some SO members who had joined the SO by some particular date (it included me). It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time, and no-one seemed to perceive it as worth much, so it got very quickly forgotten about.

I thought.

Paul


It would make sense on a billion year cycle.

Just sayin'...

[NeXTep]

The main problem with correction in Scientology is that there is no system of checks and balances put in place that goes up to the top. In the early days the networks were supposed to create some kind of balance, especially with the GO being more or less an independent network.

The only person who could order into the GO Network at that time also caused its demise by getting them to do illegal actions. (LRH himself)

So with the GO having been absorbed into the SO hierarchy there were no more checks and balances active in the CofS and one individual was able to usurp all the power which brought the CofS to the point it is now; an acitivity without any type of internal correction despite having a "Qualifications Division".

[Terril park]

Scientology "Ethics" has been used to successfully prevent any correction. There is effectively NO internal correction, members get clobbered for even thinking about it.

So the correction function will be and is external. The society at large is taking on the qual function. Anonymous, governments, and exes are doing the job and will put the beast out of its misery in the process.

Society at large is taking on a justice function.

[AnonKat]

Society at large is taking on a justice function.

Albert Schweitzer:
Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it -- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals.

[NeXTep]

Albert Schweitzer:
Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it -- a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals.

The original (stated) intent of LRH was something along this line too. To clear individuals and thus create a positive impact on mass consciousness. This would however have required a more efficient method. Auditing technology has not proven to yield constant and stable results to create a positive impact. The current state of affairs is enough proof of the contrary.

[AnonKat]

The original (stated) intent of LRH was something along this line too. To clear individuals and thus create a positive impact on mass consciousness. This would however have required a more efficient method. Auditing technology has not proven to yield constant and stable results to create a positive impact. The current state of affairs is enough proof of the contrary.

My Hypothesis is that LRH at least was familiar with Scweitzer

The more efficient method would be Democracy instead of Tyrancy. One vote each. But I prefere all dead agening structures gone like OSA RTC SO CTS "and so on, and so forth" than I don't mind somebody practicing something I myself would not. On that note America as a nation failed to confront this Cancer called the C of $

Schweitzer lived when Hubbard was alive. I think he ripped him of too like Freud and Bhudism. Sounds to familiar to me .

Albert Schweitzer:

Thought cannot avoid the ethical or reverence and love for all life. It will abandon the old confined systems of ethics and be forced to recognize the ethics that knows no bounds. But on the other hand, those who believe in love for all creation must realize clearly the difficulties involved in the problem of a boundless ethic and must be resolved not to veil from [humankind] the conflicts which this ethic will involve [us], but allow [us] really to experience them. To think out in every implication the ethic of love for all creation -- this is the difficult task which confronts our age.�

[AngeloV]

No organization can be corrected or self-corrected using QA techniques into a successful operation whose very foundation is based on paranoia. The fear of evil 'psychs', the medical profession, drug companies, the media and a multitude of phantom 'SPs' will continue to drive scio along a downhill course of madness and ruined lives.

Scio ethics is good for one thing - it acts like a giant throttle on the organizations success. :)

[phoenix]

Well....
thanks...
this certainly seems to be an interesting thread.

I certainly Enjoy listening to Rons lectures and often find that I have great realisations.
I have had fantastic realisations and greater happinesses because of better understandings.... and had and done some great auditing.

so I dont have any 'problem' with the tech....
just the main body of scientology apears to be 'out of tune' with its own ethos.

and so.... is it the unable to correct itself.... as it states it can ?

very interesting that some have noted that others... the public are now holding that dropped function...... mmmm.... i agree.... that is a very scientological perspective..... a good point that perhaps the 'public' are now holding that function and perhaps at some point will 'correct ' the organisation perhaps by way of severe reality adjustment.

so...
just how is this QUAL self correcting mechanism MEANT to work ?

anyone know ?

[Zinjifar]

so...
just how is this QUAL self correcting mechanism MEANT to work ?

anyone know ?

The *intention* was to allow Ron to apply any strictures, mandates or rules he chose completely arbitrarily, without Himself being bound by them.

It works admirably.

Zinj

[NeXTep]

just how is this QUAL self correcting mechanism MEANT to work ?

This can only work if you assume that the tech actually can be made to work on the majority of cases and actually is able to actually transform emotional charge with the end result of having enlightened beings. (call them clears or OTs if you want)

The Qual division, by keeping the (assumed functioning) technology 100% standard and getting results, would thus assist the org in clearing the basis to a point that there would be no place for DMs and cohorts within such an organization. In fact he would not be able to prey upon such subjects as there would be no resonance and he would either be a decent leader or gone. :eyeroll:

[RogerB]

In my view, based on personal experience in the trenches, the reason there has been a chronic failure to self correct in the orgs is that the "corrective action" designated in the org board structure as being in the Qual Div got usurped by the Dept. of Ethics.

I don't know if you've particularly noticed, but virtually all efforts in the org to correct anything and render "severe reality adjustments" et al are done via ethics "handlings" or otherwise under the threat and duress of ethics handlings..

Wrong action, wrong who to be doing it!

Originally when the Awareness Levels and related org board structure based on it were released, Awareness Level 14 and Department 14 were named REVIEW. It later got changed to "CORRECTION."

That of course is a screw-up because it omits the vital step of the inspection that would comprise a review in order to adequately and accurately evaluate if and/or what ought be corrected.

Department of staff training was ?is? there in Qual also . . . and this would enable corrections and upgrading of staff performance . . . . if it were allowed to happen instead of the incessant hitting with ethics handlings and bullyings by idiots from "management" strata above and other Product Officer demands and stupid interference posing as "management."

As an organism, the orgs long ago ceased being able to think, analyze and do the right and proper corrective actions. It all went out the window when the Department of I&R and Ethics Officer posts along with HCO were given too much power . . . or that those functions were usurped by idiots or those whose sense of improvement and betterment were grossly "warped" (to say the least).

This loss of ability to think and order org affairs in an optimum manner occurred in about 1966 after the implementation of I&R and Eth Officer functions in orgs.

Today, orgs cannot think. Nor can they analyze with a view to upgrading of performance . . . they can only react and punish.

And that, unfortunately, is a sad commentary on what started out with some real promise, even if flawed.

Orgs are ruled by fear, not reason. Punishment has replaced enhancement.

RogerB

[wiseman_of_the_watchtower]

This is exaclty what is happening in 2009/2010. HCO and SNR HCO are in complete control. To a more extreme degree, CMO operates entirely on aggression and fear. They aren't part of HCO, but they all operate like ethics officers on steroids.

And what does CMO demand? MONEY. in 2005, it was the "Congresses". In 2007 it was the "Basics" All through that, you had IAS stat pushes, and Library donation stat pushes.

And you can't talk back to CMO: they are supposed to be the same as LRH, when you speak with them.

So Qual is not going to correct this today. They stayed up too late selling _____ yesterday. If they do, there actions will be violently stopped by CMO tomorrow.

-WMWT





In my view, based on personal experience in the trenches, the reason there has been a chronic failure to self correct in the orgs is that the "corrective action" designated in the org board structure as being in the Qual Div got usurped by the Dept. of Ethics.

I don't know if you've particularly noticed, but virtually all efforts in the org to correct anything and render "severe reality adjustments" et al are done via ethics "handlings" or otherwise under the threat and duress of ethics handlings..

Wrong action, wrong who to be doing it!

Originally when the Awareness Levels and related org board structure based on it were released, Awareness Level 14 and Department 14 were named REVIEW. It later got changed to "CORRECTION."

That of course is a screw-up because it omits the vital step of the inspection that would comprise a review in order to adequately and accurately evaluate if and/or what ought be corrected.

Department of staff training was ?is? there in Qual also . . . and this would enable corrections and upgrading of staff performance . . . . if it were allowed to happen instead of the incessant hitting with ethics handlings and bullyings by idiots from "management" strata above and other Product Officer demands and stupid interference posing as "management."

As an organism, the orgs long ago ceased being able to think, analyze and do the right and proper corrective actions. It all went out the window when the Department of I&R and Ethics Officer posts along with HCO were given too much power . . . or that those functions were usurped by idiots or those whose sense of improvement and betterment were grossly "warped" (to say the least).

This loss of ability to think and order org affairs in an optimum manner occurred in about 1966 after the implementation of I&R and Eth Officer functions in orgs.

Today, orgs cannot think. Nor can they analyze with a view to upgrading of performance . . . they can only react and punish.

And that, unfortunately, is a sad commentary on what started out with some real promise, even if flawed.

Orgs are ruled by fear, not reason. Punishment has replaced enhancement.

RogerB

[Mark A. Baker]

In my view, based on personal experience in the trenches, the reason there has been a chronic failure to self correct in the orgs is that the "corrective action" designated in the org board structure as being in the Qual Div got usurped by the Dept. of Ethics.

I don't know if you've particularly noticed, but virtually all efforts in the org to correct anything and render "severe reality adjustments" et al are done via ethics "handlings" or otherwise under the threat and duress of ethics handlings..

Wrong action, wrong who to be doing it!

Originally when the Awareness Levels and related org board structure based on it were released, Awareness Level 14 and Department 14 were named REVIEW. It later got changed to "CORRECTION."

That of course is a screw-up because it omits the vital step of the inspection that would comprise a review in order to adequately and accurately evaluate if and/or what ought be corrected.

Department of staff training was ?is? there in Qual also . . . and this would enable corrections and upgrading of staff performance . . . . if it were allowed to happen instead of the incessant hitting with ethics handlings and bullyings by idiots from "management" strata above and other Product Officer demands and stupid interference posing as "management."

As an organism, the orgs long ago ceased being able to think, analyze and do the right and proper corrective actions. It all went out the window when the Department of I&R and Ethics Officer posts along with HCO were given too much power . . . or that those functions were usurped by idiots or those whose sense of improvement and betterment were grossly "warped" (to say the least).

This loss of ability to think and order org affairs in an optimum manner occurred in about 1966 after the implementation of I&R and Eth Officer functions in orgs.

Today, orgs cannot think. Nor can they analyze with a view to upgrading of performance . . . they can only react and punish.

And that, unfortunately, is a sad commentary on what started out with some real promise, even if flawed.

Orgs are ruled by fear, not reason. Punishment has replaced enhancement.

RogerB :thumbsup:

Excellent point. Couple this to the associated problems of inappropriate "corrections" ordered by seniors and the failure & unwillingness of seniors themselves to get corrected and you have the basic formula for a high per centage of the Co$ major internal f*ck ups.


Mark A. Baker

[Veda]

Could it be that Scientology is, essentially, the way it's supposed to be, and that Scientology followed a "be, do, have," sequence, and ultimately resulted in monuments to L. Ron Hubbard, just as was envisioned by Hubbard in 1938.

But that may be too much for the faithful to confront.

Could Scientology be the way it is because the founder had a hidden agenda, and that hidden agenda was/is built into the mental-healing-coated personality cult that he established?

Better not think about it.

[phoenix]

Wow,
thanks for some excellant replies.
It looks to me as though there never has actually been a 'command line' from the Qual division to the whole org.
and yet this is what Ron speaks of as the orgs being able to correct themselves.

I think this is somehow an ommision.

and yet is utterly the main outpoint we see now....

most complaints of scientology.... seem to stem from this.

It is very easy for us to now sit here and simly nattter that ... oh its so bad...
and Ron is an idiot and ego and yes yes yes....
but just for a moment here we MAY actually have some folks talking the same language to 'create a new civilisation'

so on a positive note....
perhaps the 'FREE ZONE' orgs would implement and ACTUAL line from QUAL to SOURCE.

and of course that is above ... ethics control ... ie 'legalistic' enforcement.

cheers
Ian

[Veda]

-snip-

so on a positive note....
perhaps the 'FREE ZONE' orgs would implement and ACTUAL line from QUAL to SOURCE.

-snip-



Let's hope so. In the meantime, at least, you Free Zone guys have one heck of a good song: http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html

[I told you I was trouble]

Let's hope so. In the meantime, at least, you Free Zone guys have one heck of a good song: http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html


:hysterical: