Murder or Justifiable Homicide?

[Feral]

What would the ruling be likely to be should one of those humiliated, degraded and tortured "execs" in the SP hole actually snap and kill David Miscavige?

Could any prosecutor ever convict them after the cruel and unprecedented abuse they've been subjected to for years?

Events like the musical chairs incident (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fxseaorg %2Fmusicalchairs-intbasestyle&ei=x-bGS52dBo2gkQWorKGwCQ&usg=AFQjCNHh3Jy_STDxqUX6xYjTgeA9qr12rg&sig2=uDxWd4JfIIv4DMzuVx0r-A), being forced to defaecate into plastic bags (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=17106&highlight=defecating), sleep and food deprivation, , seances, water boarding (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/45-days-in-the-hole-final-purges-part-4/) and gang bang sec checks.
(http://www.xenu-directory.net/glossary/glossary_g.htm)
How could any prosecutor ever build any case against someone who might have suddenly and forcefully snapped under such incredible strain?

Don't think it could happen? Look at Rex Fowler (http://www.forum.exscn.net/search.php?searchid=2254205), he wasn't under a quarter of the strain that the EX INT execs are, just look at what he (allegedly) did!

What about poor Steve Brackett? (http://www.leavingscientology.wordpress.com/) You think mere bankruptcy is comparable to what Heber, Yager, Mittoff and Leserve have had to endure?

Yet it hasn't happened, yet. Makes me wonder; what are the FBI waiting for? An actual murder? Do they want an unprecedented incident at the INT base before they act?

Well I guess if one of those guys had enough action and life left in them to rise up against the tyrant David Miscavige I think they would have an excellent entree to a full investigation to the CofS.

I would have thought it might be better to move in before another serious crime though.

Maybe if anything serious does occur at the INT base, then the Federal Government might have a case to answer.

Jus' sayin'.

[scooter]

"Justifiable homicide of David Miscavige" does have a nice ring to it. :D

[GreyWolf]

the fbi will not do anything unless the AG says so. The AG is not just a prosector but a polititian, therefore without BALLS!

[SchwimmelPuckel]

They'd cover it up.. Actuallly there's a lot of people 'missing' in scientology... Where IS Miscavige atm anyway?

Who's 'working' at the vaults? - Trementina, Petrolia.. I've wondered why we haven't heard squat about that. Those premises are large areas that are deserted. Miles from anywhere...

:unsure:

[Panda Termint]

Feral, I bet that thought has crossed Jesse's mind more than once.

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Considering that Int is in CA, even tho it would technically be justifiable homicide, the person would probably be prosecuted for murder. CA laws really suck on this issue. Many wives suffering years of abuse (documented) still end up in prison for killing their spouse.

[Vinaire]

Force begets force.

There is no end to this chain, unless one simply detaches oneself from it.

.

[Arthur Dent]

Unfortunately, Feral, it will probably take such a murder. And then one that isn't covered up. I don't know if that even happening to DM would be enough for those at Int to run free. I suspect in the chaos and confusion someone would have the "greatest good" idea and cause it to be covered up to protect the precious church. An investigation really is needed now to break that chain of thought and prohibit this kind of treatment of people.

If new people knew of these actions of DM, would anyone join the cofs?? His actions are sickening. I cannot wait to know he's behind bars.:angry:

[scooter]

I've been mulling on this and I think it's a very real possibility - it all comes down to CONTROL.

David Miscavige thinks he's in CONTROL of the cult. But even a cursory glance says he's obviously not.

He's increasingly absent from public view, He travels only with tight (and very expensive) security arrangements in place and He's often absent from Int Base apparently.:whistling:

Oh, and His beloved stats are crashing across the planet.:happydance:

All that says to ANYONE who looks is "Scientology is out of control.":ohmy:

And David Miscavige IS Scientology per Himself and His minions.:duh:

He can't even control His temper.:roflmao:

So some poor beaten-down "SP" at Int (or anywhere else for that matter) finally realizes that David Miscavige has lost control and DM goads this person into an act of uncontrollable violence then "justifiable homicide of David Miscavige" becomes a media feeding frenzy around the globe.:yes:

Jees, Dave, are you really sure that all the DeathWinds crew are totally on your side?:D

You already KNOW what those SPs at Int are like - or do you?:omg:

[thetanic]

Control of others is always an illusion, especially if someone perceives they have nothing (or very little) to lose.

What's controlling the people in the hole is the fear of the loss of their eternity. If one of them reaches the point where that no longer controls them, then strange things will happen.

[AnonKat]

If miscavige was 25 year older I would have pictured his death like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVIrGONcCu4&feature=related

[Megalomaniac]

"Justifiable homicide of David Miscavige" does have a nice ring to it. :D

I love you Scooter, but a few more comments like this on ESMB and I'm outta here.

There is a justice system in the U.S. and in most countries. Let's use it.

[Anonycat]

If a battered wife can get murder charges dropped due to crime of passion, I don't see how this would be any different.

[nexus100]

Does anyone really think that killling DM is the solution to their lives? If someone did shoot up a Scientology org what sort of reaction would occur, including possibly against ESMB with these comments? ESMB is a tool for recovery and understanding, not revenge, and it works pretty damn well. Do you want it closed?

Besides, those folks are like you were a few years ago, trapped in a hell of their own making, aren't they? Yes, even DM.

If bloodthirsty souls need to vent do it elsewhere, PLEASE. It is not appropriate here. PLEASE.

[thetanic]

Frankly, I'd rather DM were in prison than dead.

It'd be better living conditions than he permitted other, but it would be a huge drop in power and capability for him.

[Mark A. Baker]

Frankly, I'd rather DM were in prison than dead.

It'd be better living conditions than he permitted other, but it would be a huge drop in power and capability for him.

Not necessarily. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059358/

Also, the name Gotti, springs to mind along with several others. :)


Mark A. Baker

[Feral]

Does anyone really think that killling DM is the solution to their lives? snip

No, that wasn't the point.

The point which was so politically incorrectly put by a hopelessly politically incorrect poster was that;

A. It's possible and though not likely. However other horrible derivatives of his actions are occurring regularly. Maybe it's only a matter of time before something truly shocking happens.

B. It could and should be prevented by the FBI or other law enforcement authorities.

C. David Miscavige has perpetrated crimes upon 100s if not 1000s of people. That cumulatively add up too far more than any single crime I could imagine.

The reason this thread is possibly offensive is that Aussies don't tend to give a fuck about the more delicate ways of putting things. We are far more rough and tumble than even Tom Cruise. :)

Having said that I still don't feel that David Miscavige should feel safe enough to continue with the abuse he has dished out for so many years.

[nexus100]

No, that wasn't the point.

The point which was so politically incorrectly put by a hopelessly politically incorrect poster was that;

A. It's possible and though not likely other horrible derivatives of his actions are occurring regularly. Maybe it's only a matter of time before something truly shocking happens.

B. It could and should be prevented by the FBI or other law enforcement authorities.

C. David Miscavige has perpetrated crimes upon 100s if not 1000s of people. That cumulatively add up too far more than any single crime I could imagine.

The reason this thread is possibly offensive is that Aussies don't tend to give a fuck about the more delicate ways of putting things. We are far more rough and tumble than even Tom Cruise. :)

Having said that I still don't feel that David Miscavige should feel safe enough to continue with the abuse he has dished out for so many years.

Fair enough, Kev, but my point still holds. This is a recovery board not a revenge board. There is a chance, however slight, that if someone did go off the rails vs. some COS group and they had been a member of ESMB...I just don't see much positve in this line to outweigh the potential negatives. Nor is it conducive to understanding for most observers. No one here would seriously want to see that happen. I assume. :)

[Feral]

Fair enough, Kev, but my point still holds. This is a recovery board not a revenge board. There is a chance, however slight, that if someone did go off the rails vs. some COS group and they had been a member of ESMB...I just don't see much positve in this line to outweigh the potential negatives. Nor is it conducive to understanding for most observers. No one here would seriously want to see that happen. I assume. :)

That would be terrible but it would also be totally dis related to my post and my point, kinda like how serious crime is not created by movies like Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs.

I was simply wondering if in the case that one of the many people that DM has subjected to immeasurable psychological torture actually snapped, and carried out some sort of terminal violence on his tormentor then would it be a case of murder or justifiable homicide?

I was also musing at why the FBI has not pre empted such a possibility.

[Alanzo]

I think Kevin's main point here is that law enforcement exists in our society for a reason.
And if there was ever a reason for law enforcement to act, that reason exists in this situation, and so where are they?

[Zinjifar]

I think Kevin's main point here is that law enforcement exists in our society for a reason.
And if there was ever a reason for law enforcement to act, that reason exists in this situation, and so where are they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS9evnStrto

Zinj

[Enthetan]

Considering that Int is in CA, even tho it would technically be justifiable homicide, the person would probably be prosecuted for murder. CA laws really suck on this issue. Many wives suffering years of abuse (documented) still end up in prison for killing their spouse.

Somebody may just decide that prison would be preferable to continued life in the SO. You get better food, better berthing, and you actually get medical and dental care.

You also meet a more theta class of people.

[Enthetan]

Force begets force.

There is no end to this chain, unless one simply detaches oneself from it.

.

Scientology is currently a game where the only way to win, is not to play.

[WildKat]

I think Kevin's main point here is that law enforcement exists in our society for a reason.
And if there was ever a reason for law enforcement to act, that reason exists in this situation, and so where are they?

The answer is simply that law enforcement cannot act on hearsay or what MIGHT happen. They need a documentable crime and documentable victim, credible witness statements, etc. They learned a lesson in Waco about provoking an incident where the alleged victims were not complaining.

[Royal Prince Xenu]

No, that wasn't the point.

The point which was so politically incorrectly put by a hopelessly politically incorrect poster was that;

A. It's possible and though not likely. However other horrible derivatives of his actions are occurring regularly. Maybe it's only a matter of time before something truly shocking happens.

B. It could and should be prevented by the FBI or other law enforcement authorities.

C. David Miscavige has perpetrated crimes upon 100s if not 1000s of people. That cumulatively add up too far more than any single crime I could imagine.

The reason this thread is possibly offensive is that Aussies don't tend to give a fuck about the more delicate ways of putting things. We are far more rough and tumble than even Tom Cruise. :)

Having said that I still don't feel that David Miscavige should feel safe enough to continue with the abuse he has dished out for so many years.


Fair enough, Kev, but my point still holds. This is a recovery board not a revenge board. There is a chance, however slight, that if someone did go off the rails vs. some COS group and they had been a member of ESMB...I just don't see much positve in this line to outweigh the potential negatives. Nor is it conducive to understanding for most observers. No one here would seriously want to see that happen. I assume. :)

Personally, I have no time for political correctness either. The OP was clear, even if the topic should remain "hypothetical".


That would be terrible but it would also be totally dis related to my post and my point, kinda like how serious crime is not created by movies like Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs.

I was simply wondering if in the case that one of the many people that DM has subjected to immeasurable psychological torture actually snapped, and carried out some sort of terminal violence on his tormentor then would it be a case of murder or justifiable homicide?

I was also musing at why the FBI has not pre empted such a possibility.

I disagree with this logic blaming the media for pushing people over the edge. I do agree that the media is dumbing people down to accept almost anything they're told and I strongly object to propaganda "reality" shows like "COPS", "Border Patrol", whose sole purpose is to convince us (based on a 1% peak probability that gets shown) that everyone entering our borders is a potential criminal, and that police brutality is a necessary tool to bring down the average pick-pocket.

I have no urge to go out and kill someone, but should an issue arise, TV crime shows have provided me with a fantastic arsenal of methods, unique (one-off) weapons, diversions and covers. That still doesn't inspire me to go out and commit an act of revenge/murder.

[Mark A. Baker]

The reason this thread is possibly offensive is that Aussies don't tend to give a fuck about the more delicate ways of putting things. We are far more rough and tumble than even Tom Cruise. :)

Having said that I still don't feel that David Miscavige should feel safe enough to continue with the abuse he has dished out for so many years.

Perhaps in a Spirit of Reconciliation the Oz Contingent would care to invite Mr. Miscavige to partake of an extended Fishing & Surfing Holiday along the South Coast of Australia? Aldinga, Port Alfred, & Adelaide would all seem likely places to host our new "chum", Mr. Miscavige, in his sea side frolics. I'm sure other places would suggest themselves based on local water & fishing conditions.

Nothing like a friendly gesture to aid our new found friend's peaceful rest. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker

[Panda Termint]

:hysterical: Mark! :hysterical:

[scooter]

Just to clarify:

Mac, it isn't revenge Kev nor I are after.:no:

Maybe growing up in a place where learning by the age of eight to wring the neck of gut-shot rabbits to put them out of misery has left us with less sensitivity about these things than most.:D

I consider David Miscavige to be a victim of the Scientological system that takes teenagers and turns them into Nazis via the CMO.:yes:

I also think that he is the critics' greatest asset as He is destroying the cult faster than anybody else could, so I personally don't want him removed.:no:

The question is: Why has karma not yet caught up with this man who obviously does have a lot coming to Him?:confused2:

[nexus100]

Just to clarify:

Mac, it isn't revenge Kev nor I are after.:no:

Maybe growing up in a place where learning by the age of eight to wring the neck of gut-shot rabbits to put them out of misery has left us with less sensitivity about these things than most.:D

I consider David Miscavige to be a victim of the Scientological system that takes teenagers and turns them into Nazis via the CMO.:yes:

I also think that he is the critics' greatest asset as He is destroying the cult faster than anybody else could, so I personally don't want him removed.:no:

The question is: Why has karma not yet caught up with this man who obviously does have a lot coming to Him?:confused2:

Point taken. My point is the potential PR issue with ESMB if it did happen. The post could be read as enouraging someone to do something. Emma isn't worried about it since the thread stays up, though, so what the hell.

[scooter]

Point taken. My point is the potential PR issue with ESMB if it did happen. The post could be read as enouraging someone to do something. Emma isn't worried about it since the thread stays up, though, so what the hell.

Got it, Nexie - point taken.

I hadn't thought of it like that - although the thought of Int "insiders" reading ESMB makes me all warm and tingly inside. :D

[SchwimmelPuckel]

FWIW.. I think any pipsqueak bullies with entourages of bodyguards, like DM, stands to gain intellectual benefits from being reminded of possible consequenses of bullying..

:yes:

[Royal Prince Xenu]

FWIW.. I think any pipsqueak bullies with entourages of bodyguards, like DM, stands to gain intellectual benefits from being reminded of possible consequenses of bullying..

:yes:

Particularly if those consequences involve a few years of playing "pick up the soap".

[Megalomaniac]

Just to clarify:

Mac, it isn't revenge Kev nor I are after.:no:

Maybe growing up in a place where learning by the age of eight to wring the neck of gut-shot rabbits to put them out of misery has left us with less sensitivity about these things than most.:D

I consider David Miscavige to be a victim of the Scientological system that takes teenagers and turns them into Nazis via the CMO.:yes:

I also think that he is the critics' greatest asset as He is destroying the cult faster than anybody else could, so I personally don't want him removed.:no:

The question is: Why has karma not yet caught up with this man who obviously does have a lot coming to Him?:confused2:


Point taken. My point is the potential PR issue with ESMB if it did happen. The post could be read as enouraging someone to do something. Emma isn't worried about it since the thread stays up, though, so what the hell.


Got it, Nexie - point taken.

I hadn't thought of it like that - although the thought of Int "insiders" reading ESMB makes me all warm and tingly inside. :D

Thanks, Scooter. I think you & Nexie said it all for me, here. -Mac