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Type4_PTS
11th May 2010, 07:23 AM
Sea Org Children: The Final Solution

cross-posted from:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/arthur-doyle/339-children-the-final-solution.html (http://www.scientology-cult.com/arthur-doyle/339-children-the-final-solution.html)


Written by Arthur Doyle

Sunday, 09 May 2010

"All the problems of the world -- child labor, corruption - are symtoms of a spiritual disease; lack of compassion." Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

My parents joined the SO in 1980. Before that I spent a day with my mother and father each week. As things were in the seventies, my parents worked all day in a class IV org.

At the beginning of their SO career, things were alright. We had breakfast and dinner together every night. I remember there were these cooks in PBC (Pac Base Crew) in the morning, who would ask you how you wanted your eggs, and they'd make them in front of you, super fast.

We had an hour for family time, in addition to the 45-minute dinnertime, all of which was spent with family. In PAC we'd walk up Vermont to Thrifty's (now Rite-Aid), and get a double scoop of ice cream for 30 cents. Other times we'd go to Barnsdale Park and hang out or walk south on Vermont and get a doughnut or something.

The Cadet Org was an adventure, though. We used to work all day after school. We even had some playtime which was spent playing warball at the ATA (Apollo Training Academy, a school that the kids in PAC attended located across Fountain Ave from Bridge Publications).

In 1983 I did my EPF. I was eleven at the time and the materials were, to say the least, way too difficult for a child. I spent seven months on the EPF. It was designed to take three weeks! I was fortunate that, at the time, families had their own berthing and I lived with my mother and father. This made everything worthwhile. I saw my mom and dad at night for a little while before going to sleep, and that precious little contact with my parents would make a world of difference.

I remember when Benjamin Rinder was born in the Fountain Building. I also remember when many kids were brought into this world and how incredibly theta that was. And while conditions were far from ideal, families in the early eighties were encouraged to have kids.

There was the CEO (Cadet Estate Org) that took care of babies and small kids. It was far from ideal, but it really could have been perfected as opposed to destroying it altogether. The CEO was demolished by the PAC RPF in 1990 to make way for the Celebrity Center event structure. There were some great plus points with it. Babies got their barley formula and so on.

There were many outpoints with this system, too, but it was better than no system and no children.

At the time of LRH's death in 1986 (I had been in the SO since 1983), I was in CMO. In '87 family time was cancelled. This was a huge upset, I was still a kid after all.

After that, all the way to the present, I have had a grand total of ONE day off with my mom and dad. That is ONE DAY in 27 years.

There are many people who really never got to know their own parents, as they spent so little time with them! If you watch Jenna Miscavige's ABC interview, this resonates in her words.

I am no longer in the Sea Org and today my wife and I have a baby. I have spent more time with my baby than all the time my parents ever spent with me. And while they were good parents and meant well, they did not get to see much of me at all.

But that was only the beginning. Far worse was yet to come.

Beyond 1984

One of the single most suppressive "policies" of the Church of Scientology came out on September 28, 1986, as Flag Order No. 3905. It was not written by LRH, but by Guillaume Lesevre, ED Int who acted on the order of David Miscavige. This was the infamous Flag Order that stopped Sea Org couples from having children.

[Note from Thoughtful: Haydn James (T Paine) was the Commanding Officer PAC Base Crew at the time. ED Int wrote to him and gave him the problem of how to handle the growing number of kids in the Sea Org (400 in PAC and climbing) plus elsewhere. He said Sea Org resources shouldn't be used for the raising of kids (which if the Geico Caveman were told that, he would say indignantly, “Why not?”) and furthermore Guillaume said since Haydn was responsible for one of the largest concentrations of Sea Org kids he could solve the problem.

[It was clear from Guillaume’s comm that he was not the originator of the cycle. Plus all later evidence regarding kids and families in the Sea Org (canceling of family time, etc.) showed the origination point was David Miscavige without any shadow of a doubt.

[Anyway Haydn made up his analysis and proposed an issue. ED Int (aka, Miscavige) shot it down and forced ED Int to write his own -- the Sept 86 issue. No doubt DM set the direction and the boundaries.

[Haydn’s analysis showed a lot of kids in PAC were from parents on minor posts and who produced little -- some had up to 5 kids; what was missing was the normal function of routine Fitness Boards. Haydn argued that producing Sea Org members working 70 or 80 hours a week for $30 pay were valuable and that the Sea Org should foot the bill to help them raise their kids. Non producers could be eased back into civil life by use of existing and standard means -- Fitness Boards.

[Obviously Miscavige didn’t like Haydn’s idea at all.]

On April 3rd, 1991 the issue was reissued under Guillaume’s name shortly after he sent his two beautiful children to live with their grandmother in Italy, never to see them again. (You can see the full issue at the bottom of this article (http://www.forum.exscn.net/#FO-3905-1)).

This Flag Order is, I believe, one of the single most vicious policies the "church" has ever adopted. Not only did it denigrate and degrade the institution of marriage, it resulted in the neglect and abuse of hundreds of children, the outright abortion of hundreds more. Here’s a quote from that horribly-written issue:

"The Sea Org is not set up to handle or take care of children. Sea Org members getting [sic] children has resulted in an unpractical burden on the Sea Org units and inhibited their efficiency. No SO installation has the job of making SO members for twenty years from now." Flag Order 3905-1 CHILDREN, SEA ORG MEMBERS AND SEA ORG ORGS, 3 April 1991

"GETTING children"????!! “Making SO members for twenty years from now”? This is the language used to virtually abolish the second dynamic?

It is unbelievable! The results from this: Hundreds of forced abortions. The horrors of "persuaded" abortions and the horrific stress and guilt on mothers-to-be. But it gets worse. Miscavige and Guillaume with a clever twist of phrase turned the action of having children into a “crime” to be “hidden” in secrecy:

"... withholding the fact that there are pregnant SO members in the org, will result in a Committee of Evidence on the org PCO, Dir Routing and Personnel, HAS, Supercargo and Captain/CO as well as the SO members concerned."

Yes, let's Comm-Ev pregnant women!

David Miscavige and Guillaume Lesevre, the shame of all those young lives never lived is upon you! No wonder you Guillaume find it impossible to throw off the yoke of Miscavige and come out of the Hole. And you said Marty had a "violent streak"? With one order you virtually murder how many children?

"The overt doth speak loudly in accusation, Shakespeare re-written." LRH, Study Tapes, Lecture #2

From then on many, many men and women in the Sea Org were denied their human right to have children. This vicious policy denies families and degrades marriage and violates one of the most basic LRH principles: that we each survive through eight Dynamics which includes the having and rearing of children.

What could possibly justify the eradication of children you ask?

Oooh, lack of "efficiency"! Plus, the Sea Org was not “set up to handle or take care of children.” Huh? Every human being is set up to create children. If you don’t believe it, just look between your legs.

Does this start to sound just a tad "Third Reich" to anyone?

Instead of just throwing togerther some fitness boards, fixing up an org board, firing a mission or two... just eradicate all Sea Org children. It’s David Miscavige’s Final Solution: exterminate every fetus since fetuses are small and cannot fight back. Why go to the trouble of gassing people like Adolf Hitler when you can just take care of them when they are only about an inch long?

I am not looking for sympathy here. These are simply facts. But woven through these facts is the plight of hundreds or even possibly thousands of children who really deserved much better. Kids need love, patience and care. Perhaps this sounds a little soft, but it isn't. To deny this in families is cruelty of the first order.

Imprisoning Children

Like most marriages in the Sea Org, when my father moved up the org board, he was coerced into divorcing my mother. I was fifteen at the time and it was a huge loss.

Shortly thereafter I got into trouble and was assigned to the RPF.

I was sixteen when I was in the RPF and I had lots of company! There were about 40 minors at the time in the PAC RPF, all of whom were unjustly assigned. But I was a good student. I was a good worker, as most minors were. I spent 2 years in the RPF! Many kids spent much more time in the "R" as it was called.

A key injustice of the RPF (besides being there at all), is that if you're a minor you have no choice but to do the program. You cannot leave the Sea Org, as your parents are in the Sea Org.

So, this is false IMPRISONMENT of CHILDREN. This is Final Solution #2: If you can’t kill them when they are a fetus, imprison them when they are a child.

I remember one occasion where a young man who worked in the same org as me announced at the dinner table, "I don't like RPFers because they're f__k-ups."

One month later, he was in the RPF, and one month after that, he blew.

Kids didn't have the luxury of escaping/blowing. Children toiled doing the same labor as adults from 6:00 AM 'till 5:00 PM. And, same as adults, any kind of infraction was immediately punished by running laps or doing push-ups, or worse yet, getting assigned to the RPF's RPF, where one slaved in "Rat's Alley" all day and well into the night.

I suddenly found myself there, and I remember being covered with the horrific smell of rotten food slime. And I do mean covered! I thought, "What the hell am I doing here?" But, then again, I had no choice.

In the RPF there is absolutely no time off and no liberties (read my other article on the RPF in this site). There were no exceptions for children. In fact, as we were smaller, some children were brutalized by some adults (there was a small group of people in the RPF with their share of psychotic tendencies).

At 5 PM we had dinner and "redemption" time and lights out at 11 PM. This was tough but we got some auditing and I did experience gains from auditing despite the fact that I needed more rest and food. Despite the fact that I did not want to be there. Despite the fact that I saw very little of my mom and dad. Despite the fact that the RPF I/C was a total Nazi, and despite the fact that I had been unjustly assigned to the RPF in the first place. And despite the fact that no child should be forced to do hard labor.

The application of actual Scientology gave me some very big wins on the RPF. Those were the last wins I had with Scientology during my career in the Sea Org, however.

Unbelievably, life would get even worse than my 2 years in the PAC RPF.

Like I said though, unbelievably, the Sea Org would get far worse.

At the Int Ranch, kids worked for most of the day. Parents had very little time with their kids. It was mainly hygiene-time on Sunday mornings. But kids (from ages 4 on up), spent their nights in dorms at the ranch.

Many kids missed their mothers greatly and were restimulated in this environment. It was militaristic in that there were musters like at Gold, and kids would have to do heavy MEST work without a choice.

Sea Org children never had a choice to be there at all. This violates the very core of Scientology and the philosophy of self-determinism.

As does Flag Order 3905.

If your blood isn’t running cold by now consider this: There was an instance when Justin Miscavige and Matt Price accidentally injured a staff member at the Ranch and Miscavige assigned them the condition of "Child."

This was considered far worse than Confusion. (Goes to show you how he felt about children). In his book, Science of Survival, LRH explained what a low-toned person does to the second dynamic:

At the tone level of Covert Hostility you can expect: "Use of children for sadistic purposes"

At the tone level of Anger you can expect "Brutal treatment of children"

"At 1.5 we enter the band of brutal treatment of children, heavy corporal punishment, the forcing of the child into a mold with pain, breaking his dramatizations, upset about his noise or clutter.

"At 1.1 on the Tone Scale there may be two reactions to children. There may be an actual and immediate desire for children as a manifestation of sex, but we also may have the use of children for sadistic purposes. And we may find both of these in the same individual. We have a long-term general neglect of children, with an occasional sporadic interest in them. We have very little thought for the child's future or the culture in which the child will grow up." -- LRH, Science of Survival

And there’s more:

"It is notable, as one glances down this column, that an interest in children includes not only in the bearing of the child, but in the child's well-being, happiness, mental state, education and general future. We may have a person on the 1.1 level who seems very anxious to produce a child. Very possibly this person is following an engram command to have children. Once the child is born, we may have, in this 1.1 bracket, an interest in it as a plaything, or a curiosity. But following this, we get general neglect and thoughtlessness about the child and no feeling whatsoever about the child's future or any effort to build one for it. We get careless familial actions, such as promiscuity, which will tear to pieces the family security upon which this child's future depends. Along this band, the child is considered a thing, a possession.

"A half a tone above this, in the anger band, the child is a target for the dramatizations which the individual does not dare execute against grown-ups in the environment -- a last-ditch effort to be in command of something. Here we have domination of the child with a constant warping of its character.

"The whole future of the race depends upon its attitude towards children..." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Science of Survival

Call it what it is: Human Trafficking


In about 1996, the Cadet Org and the Int Ranch were disbanded and all children were suddenly and ruthlessly sent thousands of miles away to be posted in orgs. The point being that, hundreds of children were robbed of a childhood, their families, and in most cases, their education.

I have been making this argument for years. I refuse to accept Miscavige’s medieval prohibitions which redefine a “child” as a criminal act punishable by Comm Ev and banishment.

I’d love to hear Tommy Davis -- that wicked and braying jack ass -- trying to hee-haw out some kind of an “acceptable truth” designed whitewash his boss’s felonious behavior. He can’t tell the real truth because that is punished in the “church.”

Written by Arthur Doyle

Note: Copy of Flag Order concerning children (referenced above) can be viewed here (just below the article):
http://www.scientology-cult.com/arthur-doyle/339-children-the-final-solution.html (http://www.scientology-cult.com/arthur-doyle/339-children-the-final-solution.html)

Mick Wenlock
11th May 2010, 06:57 PM
I totally disagree with you on the subject of the Flag Order.

It was the ONLY thing to have done. Sea Org Children were abused and neglected. There are many written examples of children who were either sexually abused by other older children, or by adults. There are also many examples (and I suggest you go read ESK or some of the threads on here) of the neglect that many children suffered from.

And the fact that most Sea Org kids that I ever met were semi-illiterate is another condemnation thanks to Hubbards crappy "study dreck"

And believe me the fault is ALL with us, the parents. Not the children.

Children should NEVER have been allowed in the Sea Org. Period.

The Sea Org was never set up to deal with children, the finances suck for ensuring that they were taken care of along with not having any idea of how to run a child care area and lacking the means to train good people to do it.

Barley Formula? Jesus wept.

Sharone Stainforth
11th May 2010, 09:21 PM
Mick wrote:

Children should NEVER have been allowed in the Sea Org. Period.

I will go one step further, the sea org should never have happened. Period.

Mick Wenlock
11th May 2010, 10:10 PM
Mick wrote:


I will go one step further, the sea org should never have happened. Period.

well, now that you mention it - that would have definitely been the wiser choice!

Zinjifar
11th May 2010, 10:43 PM
well, now that you mention it - that would have definitely been the wiser choice!

Given Ron's Scientology and dreams of 'Clearing the Planet' from the inception of Scientology in the early '50s, I'd say that the Sea Org or something very similar would be and would have been inevitable.

Zinj

Enthetan
11th May 2010, 10:55 PM
Barley Formula? Jesus wept.

I had my first child on barley formula (using goats milk). She turned out very smart and very healthy and started college at 15. In retrospect, I should have put all my kids on barley formula.

Zinjifar
11th May 2010, 11:17 PM
I had my first child on barley formula (using goats milk). She turned out very smart and very healthy and started college at 15. In retrospect, I should have put all my kids on barley formula.

I did great on the SATs in '67. 10 years before I used to play with chunks of lead; hammering them, shaping them, getting very grey hands and licking my fingers.

Obviously lead consumption leads to good SAT scores :)

Zinj

Alanzo
12th May 2010, 01:35 AM
I totally disagree with you on the subject of the Flag Order.

It was the ONLY thing to have done. Sea Org Children were abused and neglected. There are many written examples of children who were either sexually abused by other older children, or by adults. There are also many examples (and I suggest you go read ESK or some of the threads on here) of the neglect that many children suffered from.

And the fact that most Sea Org kids that I ever met were semi-illiterate is another condemnation thanks to Hubbards crappy "study dreck"

And believe me the fault is ALL with us, the parents. Not the children.

Children should NEVER have been allowed in the Sea Org. Period.

The Sea Org was never set up to deal with children, the finances suck for ensuring that they were taken care of along with not having any idea of how to run a child care area and lacking the means to train good people to do it.

Barley Formula? Jesus wept.

This is a very good thread.

And the point Mick brings up about the Flag Order, as a Sea Org Parent who went through a lot of hard times with his kids, is very important in discerning the truth of the problem.

Truth has no "sides".

There is no "evil" in the truth.

We have to look at everything if we are to create something productive out of being an Ex-Scientologist.

Gottabrain
12th May 2010, 02:55 PM
Arthur, Thank you for your courage, your forthright honesty and the accuracy and completeness of your statements.

I was there and know what you are saying is true.

Enthetan, you might be interested to know that for about 6 years or longer between 1979 and 1986, the cook at the CEO cut the amount of corn syrup in the barley formula in half. We all knew, and we knew why as well. The original formula was making children fat.

I won't go into the disgusting details of the FOs written by L Ron Hubbard on children here just yet. It would require an entire separate thread and I have a stack of original references to quote from.

To summarize, L Ron actively prohibited and discouraged parents from raising their children, saw children's value only in their contributions to the Sea Org and initiated chaining children when misbehaving.

DM just continued "Command Intention" toward children.

Here are a few enlightening quotes:

FO 1630 "Governess" 3 December 1968
"Children may only go on liberty with the permission of the Conning Officer..."
"If a child or these children are found in Hold 1 or any hidden compartment of the ship they are to be locked up."
"The Governess may spank or discipline children under her care at her own discretion."
L Ron Hubbard
Commodore

FO 485 7 March 1968
"The Parents Council is abolished..."
"Children...work in the Division of the Org and come under the Sea Org Master at ARms or AO Ethics Officer just like any other Sea Org Staff Member. They are to be given posts, stand watches, and are provided uniforms."
L Ron Hubbard
Commodore

FO 301 by L Ron Hubbard dated 16 November 1967 sets the age a child can hold a post as 8 years old.

There are many, many more references.

Mick Wenlock
12th May 2010, 05:26 PM
I had my first child on barley formula (using goats milk). She turned out very smart and very healthy and started college at 15. In retrospect, I should have put all my kids on barley formula.

ah the famous post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Perhaps your first child turned out very healthy and smart because she is a smart person with brains?

Or perhaps its because she was born under a star sign? Or maybe "god had plans"?

Sorry Enthetan - your remark was just one in a long line of justifications for total bull shit. I do hope you meant it tongue in cheek.

Or perhaps...

Tell you what - take a look at what the damned thing contains and figure out for yourself why no child should be brought up on it as a milk substitute.

Ogsonofgroo
12th May 2010, 06:00 PM
I believe that the barley formula bs was conjured up by the old demented wingbag for a couple of reasons, first and foremost so that mom's wouldn't be 'wasting' the (insert Org.s etc. here) time by nursing a baby (which is absolutely the very best thing for 'em).
I also think he had some weird ideas about nursing (without any verifiable proof or science), things like isolating a baby right after birth (and so on and so forth-blather-blather), and women in general (just read his 'affirmations' self hynosis blarge).

On the whole Arthur's article is an intersting read and worthy of passing along me thinks. :)

Challenge
12th May 2010, 06:08 PM
Given Ron's Scientology and dreams of 'Clearing the Planet' from the inception of Scientology in the early '50s, I'd say that the Sea Org or something very similar would be and would have been inevitable.

Zinj

^^^^^That^^^^^

challenge

Enthetan
12th May 2010, 06:11 PM
ah the famous post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Perhaps your first child turned out very healthy and smart because she is a smart person with brains?

Or perhaps its because she was born under a star sign? Or maybe "god had plans"?

Sorry Enthetan - your remark was just one in a long line of justifications for total bull shit. I do hope you meant it tongue in cheek.

Or perhaps...

Tell you what - take a look at what the damned thing contains and figure out for yourself why no child should be brought up on it as a milk substitute.

My point was, it did not appear to have done her any harm. She's done better academically than my other kids.

Infinite
12th May 2010, 06:14 PM
My point was, it did not appear to have done her any harm. She's done better academically than my other kids.

How might she have done without it? You'll never know.

Alanzo
12th May 2010, 06:15 PM
I believe that the barley formula bs was conjured up by the old demented wingbag for a couple of reasons, first and foremost so that mom's wouldn't be 'wasting' the (insert Org.s etc. here) time by nursing a baby (which is absolutely the very best thing for 'em).
I also think he had some weird ideas about nursing (without any verifiable proof or science), things like isolating a baby right after birth (and so on and so forth-blather-blather), and women in general (just read his 'affirmations' self hynosis blarge).

On the whole Arthur's article is an intersting read and worthy of passing along me thinks. :)

Also remember, Dr. Benjamin Spock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock) had written one of the biggest bestsellers of all time. It was very influential and selling like hotcakes during Hubbard's time.

"Child Dianetics" was within a decade of the publication of that book.

Cha-ching!

Ogsonofgroo
12th May 2010, 06:22 PM
Also remember, Dr. Benjamin Spock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock) had written one of the biggest bestsellers of all time. It was very influential and selling like hotcakes during Hubbard's time.

"Child Dianetics" was within a decade of the publication of that book.

Cha-ching!

Good point!
:thumbsup:
My mom was saved a lot of parenting grief due to the good doctor, though some of his stuff is a bit dated by our standards now, it seemed an excellent guide (have only glanced through it many years ago).

Mick Wenlock
12th May 2010, 10:35 PM
My point was, it did not appear to have done her any harm. She's done better academically than my other kids.

But as there is no way to measure what she might have been had you not fed her barley formula it's a moot point.

Seriously E I am not trying to dig at you personally but when you cite something in this manner you are, without any proof whatsoever, advocating something which is complete quackery. It is the same "thinking" that Hubbard tries to get scientologists to use "well it worked for me"

If you define "worked" as "didn't kill her or damage her" then yeah, it worked. Doesn't mean that it will not hurt others.

thetanic
13th May 2010, 01:33 AM
If you define "worked" as "didn't kill her or damage her" then yeah, it worked. Doesn't mean that it will not hurt others.

And it would, indeed, be brutal to about 1% of children.

Mark A. Baker
13th May 2010, 02:02 AM
I believe that the barley formula bs was conjured up by the old demented wingbag for a couple of reasons, ...


Hate to break it to you, barley water was in common usage in the nursery during Victorian & Edwardian times. Various recipes can be found for it in domestic household books from the time. The Sherman brothers had the kids in the Disney movie musical of "Mary Poppins" sing about it ("... and never give us barley water!").

I suspect that its usage predates Victoria by several centuries. It's a likely outgrowth of early Celtic culture. But, offhand I don't know of any earlier documented use.

Quite likely LRH mocked up his own recipe. However, he likely based it on an earlier version he knew about.


Mark A. Baker

Ogsonofgroo
13th May 2010, 02:10 AM
Hate to break it to you, barley water was in common usage in the nursery during Victorian & Edwardian times. Various recipes can be found for it in domestic household books from the time. The Sherman brothers had the kids in the Disney movie musical of "Mary Poppins" sing about it ("... and never give us barley water!").

I suspect that its usage predates Victoria by several centuries. It's a likely outgrowth of early Celtic culture. But, offhand I don't know of any earlier documented use.

Quite likely LRH mocked up his own recipe. However, he likely based it on an earlier version he knew about.


Mark A. Baker
Thanks Mark!
Yes, when milk was scarce this was a solution for survival, I was actually aware of it previously (but not important for this). Barley is ok for subsistance sustinance, but barely, sort of stop-gap to starvation really.
Still, it is hardly optimal for the healthy growth of a children thingy imho.

Give 'em mom's best r' give 'em.......... Barney?

:eyeroll:

free1996
13th May 2010, 09:21 AM
Arthur, Thank you for your courage, your forthright honesty and the accuracy and completeness of your statements.

I was there and know what you are saying is true.

Enthetan, you might be interested to know that for about 6 years or longer between 1979 and 1986, the cook at the CEO cut the amount of corn syrup in the barley formula in half. We all knew, and we knew why as well. The original formula was making children fat.

I won't go into the disgusting details of the FOs written by L Ron Hubbard on children here just yet. It would require an entire separate thread and I have a stack of original references to quote from.

To summarize, L Ron actively prohibited and discouraged parents from raising their children, saw children's value only in their contributions to the Sea Org and initiated chaining children when misbehaving.

DM just continued "Command Intention" toward children.

Here are a few enlightening quotes:

FO 1630 "Governess" 3 December 1968
"Children may only go on liberty with the permission of the Conning Officer..."
"If a child or these children are found in Hold 1 or any hidden compartment of the ship they are to be locked up."
"The Governess may spank or discipline children under her care at her own discretion."
L Ron Hubbard
Commodore

FO 485 7 March 1968
"The Parents Council is abolished..."
"Children...work in the Division of the Org and come under the Sea Org Master at ARms or AO Ethics Officer just like any other Sea Org Staff Member. They are to be given posts, stand watches, and are provided uniforms."
L Ron Hubbard
Commodore

FO 301 by L Ron Hubbard dated 16 November 1967 sets the age a child can hold a post as 8 years old.

There are many, many more references.

I was there also as a child making barley and having to put that blue stuff for babies that were teething.
Jim Garret was our bus driver and if we misbehaved he would scream at us at the top of his lungs and if really mad, he would stop the bus and tie kids with ropes to the front seat next to the driver to make a point.
We were constantly spanked with paddles, wood and at one point a paddle with sandpaper glued to it and have our pants and underwear taken down in front of other children to be spanked.

free1996
13th May 2010, 09:27 AM
I was there also as a child making barley and having to put that blue stuff for babies that were teething.
Jim Garret was our bus driver and if we misbehaved he would scream at us at the top of his lungs and if really mad, he would stop the bus and tie kids with ropes to the front seat next to the driver to make a point.
We were constantly spanked with paddles, wood and at one point a paddle with sandpaper glued to it and have our pants and underwear taken down in front of other children to be spanked.

We were also told if we didn't sign a Sea Org contract that we were out-ethics and off purpose and would be assigned mess work and have to go to ethics to find out why you didn't want to be part of the 3rd dynamic as this was our only purpose in life.

Winston Smith
13th May 2010, 02:25 PM
The truly sick thing about this thread is not the barley. It is everything else mentioned in the OP. My kids were both breast-fed, and both me and wife cuddled them to death. I love them dearly. That did not however make them into genius material. That does not matter to me; what matters is they find what they are passionate about and persue that passion.

The greatest evil of the cult is what it has done to the most helpless--the kids. That the US Government has not shut this sick enterprise down speaks to one thing--it must condone that sickness. Ofcourse the US Government is good for nothing these days, so it figures.

Type4_PTS
13th May 2010, 07:49 PM
We were constantly spanked with paddles, wood and at one point a paddle with sandpaper glued to it and have our pants and underwear taken down in front of other children to be spanked.

Free, was this in Los Angeles that this occurred?


We were also told if we didn't sign a Sea Org contract that we were out-ethics and off purpose and would be assigned mess work and have to go to ethics to find out why you didn't want to be part of the 3rd dynamic as this was our only purpose in life.

Wow! This is really sick stuff here. :omg:

free1996
13th May 2010, 11:53 PM
Free, was this in Los Angeles that this occurred?



Wow! This is really sick stuff here. :omg:

Yes, in L.A.

Challenge
14th May 2010, 08:58 AM
I was there also as a child making barley and having to put that blue stuff for babies that were teething.
Jim Garret was our bus driver and if we misbehaved he would scream at us at the top of his lungs and if really mad, he would stop the bus and tie kids with ropes to the front seat next to the driver to make a point.
We were constantly spanked with paddles, wood and at one point a paddle with sandpaper glued to it and have our pants and underwear taken down in front of other children to be spanked.

yeah. That Jim Garrett was quite the guy. He left Pat Garrett when she was just about to deliver their baby. She was alone in a room with no food, no water, no nothing but her little new baby. My BFF and I took her some supplies.
Jim Garrett, Scientologist. Vomitous creep.


challenge

Gottabrain
14th May 2010, 09:37 AM
I totally disagree with you on the subject of the Flag Order.

It was the ONLY thing to have done. Sea Org Children were abused and neglected. There are many written examples of children who were either sexually abused by other older children, or by adults. There are also many examples (and I suggest you go read ESK or some of the threads on here) of the neglect that many children suffered from.

And the fact that most Sea Org kids that I ever met were semi-illiterate is another condemnation thanks to Hubbards crappy "study dreck"

And believe me the fault is ALL with us, the parents. Not the children.

Children should NEVER have been allowed in the Sea Org. Period.

The Sea Org was never set up to deal with children, the finances suck for ensuring that they were taken care of along with not having any idea of how to run a child care area and lacking the means to train good people to do it.

Barley Formula? Jesus wept.

Absolutely, Mick!

There were other solutions. We tried them all (round robin child care of moms during study time, outside child care, hiring nannies). Mgmt always stopped them. In L Ron's time and afterward. Always. Because they were not according to policy.

The little kids, the pre-teens and the teens had it the worst. Arthur was never in the little children's nurseries so very likely did not know. Who entered the nurseries and when was extremely restricted. Always.
At the time he was in, as bad as he described it, his age group didn't have it so bad. When the CEO FIRST moved to the center next to CCLA, it was nice. The building was once used for Aged Care so it was even up to code. Didn't last long before the same problems occurred again, because the problems were with SO and Scn policy on children. Exactly as you describe.

Arthur's description is very accurate for the section he experienced. He just doesn't understand that this was the BEST it ever was in the entire history of the SO. That was the MOST parents ever saw their kids, that a few years before or after were a nightmare and they weren't allowed to take family time, even if it was on the schedule. Kids stayed day and NIGHT at the child care center and were difficult to visit transport-wise. And..Arthur is not remembering all the details yet, either. Give him time. There were plenty of horrors in his age group, too. School was a big one.

I was a missionaire on both missions to move the CEO. And a nanny, and an Esto, and a parent.

I left with my son. The SO was never any place for kids. Never will be.

Veda
14th May 2010, 09:51 AM
yeah. That Jim Garrett was quite the guy. He left Pat Garrett when she was just about to deliver their baby. She was alone in a room with no food, no water, no nothing but her little new baby. My BFF and I took her some supplies.
Jim Garrett, Scientologist. Vomitous creep.

challenge

"Situation: I need to re-institute the Children's RPF and propose Jim Garrett as Adult MAA for the Cadet Org...

"We are in PT re-establishing the Cadet Org in pushing the LRH Advices and policy concerning it...

"In 1976 when the Commodore re-established the Cadet Org, he also included the Children's RPF..."

http://www.skeptictank.org/gen3/gen01968.htm

Gottabrain
14th May 2010, 09:52 AM
Free, I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you. I didn't know that about Jim Garrett, but I knew Jim Garrett. Certainly he would have acted differently in the presence of adults.

Final note - (Sorry if I've gotten longwinded here):

The FO was not a solution. It was okay as a TEMPORARY measure on a volunteer basis, but enforcement of it was evil and resulted in abortions.

The real solution would have been to have every single staff member with a child routed out of the SO in coordination with social services and the entire SO disbanded.

Disband the Sea Org. Get rid of it.

AnonKat
13th June 2010, 11:13 PM
Free, I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you. I didn't know that about Jim Garrett, but I knew Jim Garrett. Certainly he would have acted differently in the presence of adults.

Final note - (Sorry if I've gotten longwinded here):

The FO was not a solution. It was okay as a TEMPORARY measure on a volunteer basis, but enforcement of it was evil and resulted in abortions.

The real solution would have been to have every single staff member with a child routed out of the SO in coordination with social services and the entire SO disbanded.

Disband the Sea Org. Get rid of it.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/8/obama_bump.jpg

Winston Smith
13th June 2010, 11:31 PM
I just read that SP Times article. How sick this thing called Scientology.

La La Lou Lou
14th June 2010, 12:31 AM
I remember hearing about the Hubbard kids, running wild around saint hill, not to be told off, not to be approached, they had shed loads of toys. Other peoples kids were to be his slaves. Sick man.

Lulu Belle
14th June 2010, 02:04 AM
I totally disagree with you on the subject of the Flag Order.

It was the ONLY thing to have done. Sea Org Children were abused and neglected. There are many written examples of children who were either sexually abused by other older children, or by adults. There are also many examples (and I suggest you go read ESK or some of the threads on here) of the neglect that many children suffered from.

And the fact that most Sea Org kids that I ever met were semi-illiterate is another condemnation thanks to Hubbards crappy "study dreck"

And believe me the fault is ALL with us, the parents. Not the children.

Children should NEVER have been allowed in the Sea Org. Period.

The Sea Org was never set up to deal with children, the finances suck for ensuring that they were taken care of along with not having any idea of how to run a child care area and lacking the means to train good people to do it.

Barley Formula? Jesus wept.

I have such conflicting feelings when I hear and read the stuff about kids in the SO.

This is why.

Mick is 100% right. The SO never was, and never will be, a place to have and raise children.

Period.

Voltaire's Child
14th June 2010, 07:24 AM
I have such conflicting feelings when I hear and read the stuff about kids in the SO.

This is why.

Mick is 100% right. The SO never was, and never will be, a place to have and raise children.

Period.


^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

xseaorguk
29th January 2012, 10:15 AM
I will never forget the little souls at stonelands, the SO birthing around 1980.
One woman exec had 2 small toddlers, who used to go up and get their slop in the morning and sit by themselves in the breakfast room.
How "grown-up" and serious they seemed, and it was regarded a good thing back then, as, after all, they were just "big thetans in little bodies". :yes:
Makes me wonder where they are now and how they have developed.

Freeminds
29th January 2012, 11:38 AM
Makes me wonder where they are now and how they have developed.

If they stayed 'in', they're on a pretend bridge to nowhere, and not at all well. It's clear from his writings that Hubbard hated family ties (and, incidentally, women), so no wonder Scientology hurts so many people.

(BTW, birthing ≠ berthing. Your small spelling mistake raised a smile here, though. That's a whole other kettle of clams.)

vumba
29th January 2012, 01:38 PM
Tell you what - take a look at what the damned thing contains and figure out for yourself why no child should be brought up on it as a milk substitute.

I still say "Breast is Best".... and NO PAUL this isn't an invitation to start another thread on women's virtues :biggrin:

vumba
29th January 2012, 01:41 PM
Barley is ok for subsistance sustinance, but barely, sort of stop-gap to starvation really.Still, it is hardly optimal for the healthy growth of a children thingy imho.:eyeroll:

And then... when we grew up and didn't have bottles any more.. what did LRH do... fed us bloody beans and rice!

Dulloldfart
29th January 2012, 02:44 PM
(maybe not)

Paul

cadet
2nd February 2012, 12:18 AM
The truly sick thing about this thread is not the barley. It is everything else mentioned in the OP.

The greatest evil of the cult is what it has done to the most helpless--the kids. That the US Government has not shut this sick enterprise down speaks to one thing--it must condone that sickness. Ofcourse the US Government is good for nothing these days, so it figures.

Thank you. The Barley formula was about #3,876 on the list of shitty things that were done to us.

Bea Kiddo
2nd February 2012, 01:16 AM
Thank you. The Barley formula was about #3,876 on the list of shitty things that were done to us.

Yeah but the barley formula still sucked! I ended up with massive amounts of cavities and 3 root canals and caps by the age of 15 from that crap! It messes up da teeth!

cadet
2nd February 2012, 01:27 AM
Yeah but the barley formula still sucked! I ended up with massive amounts of cavities and 3 root canals and caps by the age of 15 from that crap! It messes up da teeth!

I always blamed my teeth problems more on the fact that I started smoking once I grew up and joined the SO... at like 10 years old.

Maybe the Barley formula was to blame, we could move it up to like #1,742 on the list of shitty things. :thumbsup:

Free to shine
2nd February 2012, 03:09 AM
Yeah but the barley formula still sucked! I ended up with massive amounts of cavities and 3 root canals and caps by the age of 15 from that crap! It messes up da teeth!

Yep, it sure mucked up my kids baby teeth! Thankfully their adult teeth were ok.

Lermanet_com
2nd February 2012, 03:18 AM
Some pictures of the sea org kids from LA Ranch Cadet Org 1970's

http://www.lermanet.com/newimages/la-ranch-cadetorg-70s-1.jpg
http://www.lermanet.com/newimages/la-ranch-cadetorg-70s-2.jpg
http://www.lermanet.com/newimages/la-ranch-cadetorg-70s-3.jpg

DagwoodGum
2nd February 2012, 01:55 PM
I remember hearing about the Hubbard kids, running wild around saint hill, not to be told off, not to be approached, they had shed loads of toys. Other peoples kids were to be his slaves. Sick man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs6z1D4gVp4

Or of the barleycorn.

Crashed Alien
2nd February 2012, 07:22 PM
If they stayed 'in', they're on a pretend bridge to nowhere, and not at all well. It's clear from his writings that Hubbard hated family ties (and, incidentally, women), so no wonder Scientology hurts so many people.

(BTW, birthing ≠ berthing. Your small spelling mistake raised a smile here, though. That's a whole other kettle of clams.)

Freeminds,

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just making a comment...

I read this a couple of days ago and it has been rattling around my head. I understand that you are pretty upset about certain stuff, however, I must say that MSH was a very fine, warm, charming and caring woman and according to her, LRH loved her deeply...

Of course they would have had marital issues and arguments, as any people do... Well, they were just people...

However, I personally feel that stating that he "hated family ties (and, incidentally women)" is more mouthing off than presenting a viable argument.

Why did you put that? I do not currently believe that he hated women at all, or family ties for that matter. Why do you?

Crash

Crashed Alien
2nd February 2012, 07:39 PM
Hate to break it to you, barley water was in common usage in the nursery during Victorian & Edwardian times. Various recipes can be found for it in domestic household books from the time. The Sherman brothers had the kids in the Disney movie musical of "Mary Poppins" sing about it ("... and never give us barley water!").

I suspect that its usage predates Victoria by several centuries. It's a likely outgrowth of early Celtic culture. But, offhand I don't know of any earlier documented use.

Quite likely LRH mocked up his own recipe. However, he likely based it on an earlier version he knew about.


Mark A. Baker

Mark A. Baker,

You are right... Barley water may have been disgusting to drink, but it does go back.

See http://www.naturalpedia.com/B/Barley-grains.html for a reference... I quote it here.

"Actually, the first known recipe for Barley wine dates back to 2800 b.c.e. in Babylonia. Barley water has also been used for various medicinal purposes since ancient times. The ancient Greeks relied on Barley to make bread, and athletes attributed much of their strength and physical growth to their barley-containing diets. Roman athletes also honored Barley for the strength it gave them. The gladiators were known as hordearii, meaning "eaters of Barley." Since the heads of Barley are heavy and contain numerous seeds, Barley was also honored in ancient China as a symbol of male virility."
- Michael Murray, N.D. and Joseph Pizzorno, N.D., The Encyclopedia of Healing Foods (Get the book)

Just a little fact there...

Crash.

Crashed Alien
2nd February 2012, 07:59 PM
I still say "Breast is Best".... and NO PAUL this isn't an invitation to start another thread on women's virtues :biggrin:

Hi Vumba,

Hope you are well... Just thought I'd drop this link in here as here seems to be some froth and upset about it...

Just to clarify, Barley Water is not some Scientology or Sea-Organisation mishap.

I reckon it should have been made with honey instead of corn syrup, but honey is very expensive comparatively...

Here is an interesting link... for all here to read. http://www.scientologyparent.com/regarding-barley-formula/

I am not pro or against it as I just recall making and drinking it... As a kid! I must admit, it was not nearly as bad as home made cal-mag! Or rather... Cold home made Cal-Mag... retch, double retch just at the thought of it...

Just for the record, I never gave and never will give Barley water or Barley formula to any of my three children...

Breast feed if you can, the colostrum is nature passing on anti-bodies to your child and the mother's breast milk is, after all, designed for her baby - There simply is no food better if it is possible to supply.

If not, use a good baby formula without loads of cr@p in it... As natural as possible.

My girls now drink cow's milk - Just make sure that it is only pasteurised - not homogenised/standardised or UHT...

It is good stuff!

But whatever you give to your baby, give it with love... For each moment is one that will never ever be repeated, so don't throw them away. Cherish them... Enjoy them to the full.

Crash

cadet
2nd February 2012, 09:36 PM
Freeminds,

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just making a comment...

I read this a couple of days ago and it has been rattling around my head. I understand that you are pretty upset about certain stuff, however, I must say that MSH was a very fine, warm, charming and caring woman and according to her, LRH loved her deeply...

Of course they would have had marital issues and arguments, as any people do... Well, they were just people...

However, I personally feel that stating that he "hated family ties (and, incidentally women)" is more mouthing off than presenting a viable argument.

Why did you put that? I do not currently believe that he hated women at all, or family ties for that matter. Why do you?

Crash

I had to jump in here.

LRH created the Cadet Org and under his direct watch, during his life as "source" I and countless other children were abused, malnourished, mistreated, neglected and abandoned, with his absolute knowledge and at least his tacit consent.

So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. Fuck LRH and fuck anyone who defends him.

And for the love of all things holy, can you people please stop talking about the barley formula? Is the thread entitled Sea Org Children: The Final Solution or Sea Org Children: The worst thing that ever happened to them was Barley Formula?

Veda
2nd February 2012, 09:58 PM
-snip-

Of course they would have had marital issues and arguments, as any people do... Well, they were just people...

-snip-



Just people who were co-conspirators in the commission of serious felonies, felonies for which Mary Sue was sent to federal prison, while her husband, the "Source" and "Commodore," ran and hid. Not exactly a typical couple.

SweetnessandLight
2nd February 2012, 09:59 PM
Freeminds,

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just making a comment...

I read this a couple of days ago and it has been rattling around my head. I understand that you are pretty upset about certain stuff, however, I must say that MSH was a very fine, warm, charming and caring woman and according to her, LRH loved her deeply...

Of course they would have had marital issues and arguments, as any people do... Well, they were just people...

However, I personally feel that stating that he "hated family ties (and, incidentally women)" is more mouthing off than presenting a viable argument.

Why did you put that? I do not currently believe that he hated women at all, or family ties for that matter. Why do you?

Crash

Hi Crash! To help answer this question, you should look for yourself at all of the evidence that is known about the record of his life, over the span of decades of years of his three marriages and three sets of his own children, and not just listen to the COS PR about Ron's life that you have probably been exposed to for all of your life. This really should be done on a gradient. If you really look at all that is known about the man, you may agree with Free's viewpoint.

Here is a good, and fairly innocuous place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard It's a long read but well worth it. Take your time with it, and compare it to what you were taught or led to believe about the man.

"To this day, Church of Scientology biographies of Hubbard's life do not mention either of his first two wives."

Here are the wikipedia entries on Hubbard's three marriages and families :

1. Margaret Louise Grubb Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Grubb

2. Sara Elizabeth Northrup Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup_Hollister

3. Mary Sue Whipp Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue_Hubbard

Do you know what a "Net Nanny" is? Have you ever heard that term before? The COS had a program that it gave to it's public members and staff to put on their computers, ostensibly to give them web access to COS publications or PR, a pro-Scientology social network of sorts and a free webpage where they put up success stories. I think folks were kind of ordered to comply with this. What people didn't know was that it had a hidden function, to screen out information and data considered "squirrel" or "entheta", based on key word searches. It actually hid or blocked information from the computer users who installed this program on their computers. Which meant that for anyone using this program on their computer, they could not see certain websites or read certain articles which the COS wanted to censor or suppress. Add that to the fact that COS members (especially SO) were not allowed to read or see much outside media and especially no "entheta", it means that many long time members do not know all of the true factual information about Ron and his life.

I'm not going to tell you what you should think, and I believe most other members here feel the same way. But we all want you to look for yourself and make up your own mind about why some of us feel that Ron was brutal to the women and children nearest to him and under his control. Learn the facts for yourself, and make up your own mind. Please don't be afraid to read and do research on your own. You don't have to tell anybody that you are doing so.

Open your eyes and look, don't think! :)

Wishing you all the best!

Axiom142
2nd February 2012, 10:10 PM
Mark A. Baker,

You are right... Barley water may have been disgusting to drink, but it does go back.

See http://www.naturalpedia.com/B/Barley-grains.html for a reference... I quote it here.



Just a little fact there...

Crash.

Crash,

One of the first lessons that I learned when I woke up was not to take Hubbard’s advice as gospel. He wasn’t an expert and some of his ramblings were just plain dangerous.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17428115

Infantile scurvy: an old diagnosis revisited with a modern dietary twist.

Burk CJ, Molodow R.

Source

Pediatric Dermatology, University of Miami, Miami, Florida 33125, USA. cynthiajburk@yahoo.com

Abstract

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is necessary for the formation of collagen, reducing free radicals, and aiding in iron absorption. Scurvy, a disease of dietary ascorbic acid deficiency, is uncommon today. Indeed, implementation of dietary recommendations largely eradicated infantile scurvy in the US in the early 1900s. We present a case of an otherwise healthy 2-year-old Caucasian girl who presented with refusal to walk secondary to pain in her lower extremities, generalized irritability, sleep disturbance, and malaise. The girl's parents described feeding the patient an organic diet recommended by the Church of Scientology that included a boiled mixture of organic whole milk, barley, and corn syrup devoid of fruits and vegetables. Physical examination revealed pale, bloated skin with edematous, violaceous gums and loosening of a few of her teeth. Dermatologic findings included xerosis, multiple scattered ecchymoses of the extremities, and perifollicular hemorrhage. Laboratory and radiographic evaluation confirmed the diagnosis of scurvy. The patient showed dramatic improvement after only 3 days of treatment with oral ascorbic acid and significant dietary modification. In this case report, we revisit the old diagnosis of scurvy with a modern dietary twist secondary to religious practices. This case highlights the importance of taking a detailed dietary history when evaluating diseases involving the skin.


Or could this just be part of a conspiracy by ‘the medicos’ to discredit the only person in the history of this planet who did anything positive for mankind?




I reckon it should have been made with honey instead of corn syrup, but honey is very expensive comparatively...






You should never give honey to infants.

http://tna.europarchive.org/20111116080332/http://www.food.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/2010/jun/feedinghoneytobabies


Axiom142

Crashed Alien
3rd February 2012, 12:16 AM
Just people who were co-conspirators in the commission of serious felonies, felonies for which Mary Sue was sent to federal prison, while her husband, the "Source" and "Commodore," ran and hid. Not exactly a typical couple.

Veda,

Indeed, I agree completely, not typical people, but people nonetheless...

Just making the point really as I quite often read things that are being said in a rather glib manner (no inference to you)... Quite often by people who appear to be jumping on the bandwagon and braying about things that they have heard about or "read hard facts" on the internet and quite clearly not what they have seen or experienced... Or what might actually have happened.

There are still some people around who were there, and know what was going on and also knew the context in which it was being done, right or wrong..

I do not condone any illegal action whatsoever and do not and would not encourage such activities, so please do not think I am agreeing with what happened or what was done. If I did, I would not be here.

However, there was a lot more to MSH going to jail than meets the eye... I am sure that you are already aware of that, or at least suspect it. Both from within the Church as well as from outside it.

The "commission of serious felonies" you mentioned that she went to jail for was actually "Conspiracy"... The same charge used against Martin Luther King... The charge that the US Government uses when they feel threatened.

The conspiracy charge in the grand jury charges makes interesting reading... Here is a link http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1.htm

As you will see, the other "serious felonies" that the other co-conspirators were found guilty of was "Aiding and Abetting Burglary" and "Theft of Government Property"...

Put into context, the Government theft was of some Xerox paper that was used by the "Burglars" to photocopy documents on the premises.

The actual documents were not taken. Nor was anything else...

I suppose what one should really ask is "What would be worth the risk of being caught?"...

Also, why not just ask for the documents.

Well... They were caught and suffered the consequences.

They also served their time which was the required punishment by the US Government.

There are different levels of felonies and different punishments.

None are good... But I feel that context and perspective should really be used when making statements such as "Just people who were co-conspirators in the commission of serious felonies, felonies for which Mary Sue was sent to federal prison".

While it is true technically, it is good to look at both views.

I have... It has been an interesting journey.

No doubt this blog may even have inflamed you, or upset you... That is not the intention. The intention is to give a gentle nudge to step into both party's shoes and have a look from each perspective.

It is hard to do... Not really sure if I always get it right... Pretty sure I don't always get it right...

I am very angry about what happened in the 70's and 80's... Very angry indeed, which is why I decided to try looking at both views... It has helped me understand even though I still cannot agree with what was done.

I hope you are not angry and that you understood me...

Crash

Crashed Alien
3rd February 2012, 12:39 AM
Crash,

One of the first lessons that I learned when I woke up was not to take Hubbard’s advice as gospel. He wasn’t an expert and some of his ramblings were just plain dangerous.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17428115

Infantile scurvy: an old diagnosis revisited with a modern dietary twist.

Burk CJ, Molodow R.

Source

Pediatric Dermatology, University of Miami, Miami, Florida 33125, USA. cynthiajburk@yahoo.com

Abstract

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is necessary for the formation of collagen, reducing free radicals, and aiding in iron absorption. Scurvy, a disease of dietary ascorbic acid deficiency, is uncommon today. Indeed, implementation of dietary recommendations largely eradicated infantile scurvy in the US in the early 1900s. We present a case of an otherwise healthy 2-year-old Caucasian girl who presented with refusal to walk secondary to pain in her lower extremities, generalized irritability, sleep disturbance, and malaise. The girl's parents described feeding the patient an organic diet recommended by the Church of Scientology that included a boiled mixture of organic whole milk, barley, and corn syrup devoid of fruits and vegetables. Physical examination revealed pale, bloated skin with edematous, violaceous gums and loosening of a few of her teeth. Dermatologic findings included xerosis, multiple scattered ecchymoses of the extremities, and perifollicular hemorrhage. Laboratory and radiographic evaluation confirmed the diagnosis of scurvy. The patient showed dramatic improvement after only 3 days of treatment with oral ascorbic acid and significant dietary modification. In this case report, we revisit the old diagnosis of scurvy with a modern dietary twist secondary to religious practices. This case highlights the importance of taking a detailed dietary history when evaluating diseases involving the skin.


Or could this just be part of a conspiracy by ‘the medicos’ to discredit the only person in the history of this planet who did anything positive for mankind?




You should never give honey to infants.

http://tna.europarchive.org/20111116080332/http://www.food.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/2010/jun/feedinghoneytobabies


Axiom142

Axion142,

I know... I meant if it were being made to the old recipe. The Romans used honey (They also added alcohol to make a great drink apparently...)

I know about the FSA stance on honey and I myself would not, and have not taken that chance with my children.

Sorry if I made it sound like I would... Not really intentional, just trying to say that honey is better than corn syrup - I do not recall when babies were supposed to have Barley Water - I thought it was if they were suffering colic... I did not have it that much as it did not agree with me...

Surely this barley water thing has to be some incredibly stupid misunderstanding or "literal" adoption of something said, or something taken out of context - I know that people in the church seem to make an art of that.

I also think it is madness to use it as the only food... I have experience of three of my own children growing up and know a lot about nutrition, health and so forth. I am always careful to ensure that they have loads of fresh food, fruit, vegetables as well as cooked food... and their fair share of sweets of course!

Most honey is now pasteurised... Kills the honey quite a bit, but can reduce the chance of any nasty germs... I still would not chance it with a baby though.

The abstract you gave is an appalling case... I am horrified buy it... It is interesting how people in the Church seem to become zombies with no apparent ability to use common sense or show signs of rational thought or self-determinism... I am pretty much speechless about the poor child...

I would have hoped that this report would induce a social reaction and that the child would be taken into care until such time as the parents were fit to look after her...

Again, sorry for any confusion...

Crash

Crashed Alien
3rd February 2012, 12:41 AM
Hi Crash! To help answer this question, you should look for yourself at all of the evidence that is known about the record of his life, over the span of decades of years of his three marriages and three sets of his own children, and not just listen to the COS PR about Ron's life that you have probably been exposed to for all of your life. This really should be done on a gradient. If you really look at all that is known about the man, you may agree with Free's viewpoint.

Here is a good, and fairly innocuous place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard It's a long read but well worth it. Take your time with it, and compare it to what you were taught or led to believe about the man.

"To this day, Church of Scientology biographies of Hubbard's life do not mention either of his first two wives."

Here are the wikipedia entries on Hubbard's three marriages and families :

1. Margaret Louise Grubb Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Grubb

2. Sara Elizabeth Northrup Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup_Hollister

3. Mary Sue Whipp Hubbard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue_Hubbard

Do you know what a "Net Nanny" is? Have you ever heard that term before? The COS had a program that it gave to it's public members and staff to put on their computers, ostensibly to give them web access to COS publications or PR, a pro-Scientology social network of sorts and a free webpage where they put up success stories. I think folks were kind of ordered to comply with this. What people didn't know was that it had a hidden function, to screen out information and data considered "squirrel" or "entheta", based on key word searches. It actually hid or blocked information from the computer users who installed this program on their computers. Which meant that for anyone using this program on their computer, they could not see certain websites or read certain articles which the COS wanted to censor or suppress. Add that to the fact that COS members (especially SO) were not allowed to read or see much outside media and especially no "entheta", it means that many long time members do not know all of the true factual information about Ron and his life.

I'm not going to tell you what you should think, and I believe most other members here feel the same way. But we all want you to look for yourself and make up your own mind about why some of us feel that Ron was brutal to the women and children nearest to him and under his control. Learn the facts for yourself, and make up your own mind. Please don't be afraid to read and do research on your own. You don't have to tell anybody that you are doing so.

Open your eyes and look, don't think! :)

Wishing you all the best!

SweetnessandLight,

Wow! Thank you... I will look at these in detail.

Late now so am going to bed...

Crash

Veda
3rd February 2012, 01:17 AM
If L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard had been prosecuted to the fullest extent for all of their crimes, they likely would have spent the rest of their lives in prison. Mary Sue took the rap for her husband and plea bargained. Other cases were settled in civil court. The Hubbard's both got off easy.

Here are some videos that may be helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjzOMbY8kfo&feature=uploademail

Nancy Many talks about Hubbard and Paulette Cooper, starting at 1:30. "[L. Ron] Hubbard hated Paulette Cooper. He hated her and he wanted her destroyed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY76WHmRlYA&feature=player_embedded

From the Affidavit of Tanja Burden http://www.lisamcpherson.org/burden.htm:

"At the Fort Harrison I remained LRH's personal messenger. I observed LRH control the operation of Scientology in various 'Orgs' worldwide from the Fort Harrison. I coded and decoded messages to and directly from Hubbard. Hubbard used approximately 15 codes at this time to conceal his operations, programs, and policies, which he disseminated worldwide. I personally delivered messages concerning Operation Snow White, Operation Freak Out, and other Scientology secret and illegal operations. I also filed these in Hubbard's personal filing cabinet..."

Schwimmel Puckel, in a 9 February 2011 post, had these observations:

"I quite sure that Hubbard directed this personally... But I can't prove it. But it was/is well known that even as Mary Sue and Jane Kember held those posts they did, nothing was done without Ron overlooking, approving and/or ordering it.

"I never met the man in person. I was in the Guardian's Office Europe 1979 to mid '81. Well, we had telexes clattering in from 'Ron' all the time. He was very much into anything the GO did, was my impression.. And we carefully cut the corner that said 'Ron' off of the slips before archiving. No document were to expose Ron as a leader or executive authority of anything anywhere."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF99yYCE8wI

Note: The above short video consists of clips from two '60 Minutes' programs, about fifteen years apart. The first - longer - segment - is from 1980; the latter - shorter - segment, concerning "C.A.N.," is from the mid 1990s.

To complete the series, here's a segment of the mid 1980s '60 Minutes' program with Heber Jentzsch and Earle Cooley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Drk3eVQSg&feature=related

This thread is about Sea Org children, and I don't want to derail it any further.

Veda
3rd February 2012, 01:48 AM
L. Ron Hubbard established the Children's RPF in 1976:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8ZqGSkXjI


From Gottabrain, from a prior thread:

"The year this happened was about 1988. Sorry, I can't recall the names anymore. But the Delphi School definitely had a children's RPF and a children's RPF's RPF then. The school had canceled and reinstated the children's RPF (and RPF's RPF) many times over the next few years, according to my friend then who had her son there (she also had friends who had kids there). He was much better after she pulled him out, by the way. It was hard enough on that boy, having a glass eye. I really liked him - he was sweet. His name was Nathaniel something. She and I haven't been in touch since 1990. At the moment I can't remember her name. I'll try.

"It is possible that some of the Scn schools may still have a children's RPF. I am not in touch with any active Scns to verify any of this right now and wouldn't even know how to find out. Maybe someone else here has a suggestion?"


Robert Vaughn Young re. the RPF and RPF's RPF, and re. children RPF'ed on the 'Flagship Apollo': http://www.scientology-lies.com/rvy1.html




Here's the Sec Check for Children, written by L Ron Hubbard.


HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO BULLETIN OF 21 SEPTEMBER 1961


Franchise

SECURITY CHECK CHILDREN


HCO WW Security Form 8

The following is a processing check for use on children.
Be sure the child can understand the question. Rephrase it so he or she
can understand it. The first question is the most potent.

Children's Security Check

Ages 6 -- 12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmnBXcYN9Q

cayce-case-um
3rd February 2012, 02:13 AM
How in the world did CoS get to such a 180 degree opposite from DMSMH which condemns "AA's" -- attempted abortions to the point of requiring them for SO?

Oh, I got it. ATTEMPTED abortions are bad. Actual abortions are okay -- they just add one more engram to some thetan's chains. But wait -- isn't it unethical to give other beings engrams? No, I can pretzel my brain around that too -- if it's good for CoS, it's good for the greatest number of dynamics. Therefore abortions to protect the SO are good.

What a bunch of idiotic crap.

Just on a practical level, other religions at least have the common sense that avoiding abortions increases their membership through inter-generational indoctrination. (Why do we really think Catholics condemn not only abortion but contraception? And how has that stance led to a huge international Catholic church membership?) That reality is not rocket science, but apparently it's beyond the 200+ IQs of the OTs in the SO. Maybe too much auditing actually reduces IQ?

Reincarnated thetans who were aborted by SO order should be granted free lifetime auditing in their next life!
:ohmy:

Veda
3rd February 2012, 02:23 AM
If Scientology wasn't sexually insane before, it became so, in 1982, when L. Ron Hubbard wrote his 'Pain and Sex' HCOB.

Yet even before this, beneath the children&family-friendly facade, Scientology, under Hubbard's direction, was anti-child and anti-family. Children were tolerated to the extent that they could be used, and that was all. Any man who had a 13 year old girl follow him around with an ashtray into which he flicked his cigarette ashes, or who had small children placed in a chain locker, or who abandoned or disowned his own children, or who threw his wife under the bus, allowing her to go to prison for crimes that he originated and directed, has - shall we say - a "blocked 2nd dynamic."

Here's some background for both the contempt for families and the support of abortion, in the Hubbard-created totalitarian system of Scientology and the Sea Org.

From the 1952 Philadelphia Doctorate Course:

"We mustn't mention this because, God help us, there goes the moral code. Penicillin took out the disease level and now... [a person] can take a couple of beams of energy.... and terminate a pregnancy. Nothing wild or forceful or upsetting or anything like that. Just make sure the tube opens. It's very simple. There are muscles and so forth that contract and expand at a certain period every month, and that sort of thing.

"Pregnancies that have been as much as three months advanced have been terminated that way... Isn't this fascinating? So you've got something like birth control sitting right there in theta clearing... It's just deadly. One, two, three!"

And, from a precept from 'The Way to Happiness' booklet, written, in 1980, as PR cover while Hubbard was in hiding after the exposure, by court order, of his amoral, immoral, and criminal teachings and activities:

On the topic of sex, in 'TWTH', one precept advises against promiscuity, explaining that, "A 'feeling of guilt' is no where near as sharp as ground glass in the soup."

Note that "feeling of guilt" is in quotes.

As early as 1951, Hubbard had spoken dismissively of "conscience." In the lecture, 'Cause on All Dynamics', he said:

"What is conscience? It is simply a negating against your own, not somebody else's, causes. If there is such a thing as conscience, it would be that...

"Now, you want to know anytime in your life when you have felt guilty... you go back earlier and find the postulate that you are guilty of disobeying [and erase the postulate]."

Hubbard expressed the idea of being free of the "impediment" of conscience more simply, during a ('PDC') lecture in 1952:

"Never be the effect of your own cause."


In this video, Mike Goldstein and Jim Dincalci had these observations, including about Hubbard's son Quentin, who was gay: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5263341634543279870&hl=en


"The GE [Genetic Entity] is a family man. The GE is lost without the family. It's very strange but Homo Sap is a family unit. The GE is built on that basis...

"And your thetan, by the way, can much more easily go into a group. Families are not good groups."

From 10 December 1952, PDC lecture series.

cayce-case-um
3rd February 2012, 07:47 AM
The previous poster used the term totalitarian.

I think that is right on.

There are political similarities. I understand that the people of North Korea are taught that the rest of the world is in terrible suffering under the boot heel of capitalism, that NK is the only sane and good place under the beneficence o the beloved leaders.

If they could only see that they are living in one of the most repressive and impoverished areas -- or have a picture of the Korean peninsula from satellite at night. North Korea is dark as a tomb but for a few "show case" areas. South Korea is aglow from stem to stern in contrast.

It seems too painfully similar that people who are "in" think it is horrifying "out here" in the "wog world," and that they have the only hold on solutions or ethics.

In both cases (NK and CoS), the demonization of the rest of the world coupled with suppression (I don't use that word lightly), control, and cut communications with the rest of the world result in gulags -- one focused on a gulag of the soul, the other of the political body.

cadet
3rd February 2012, 01:49 PM
The previous poster used the term totalitarian.

I think that is right on.

There are political similarities. I understand that the people of North Korea are taught that the rest of the world is in terrible suffering under the boot heel of capitalism, that NK is the only sane and good place under the beneficence o the beloved leaders.

If they could only see that they are living in one of the most repressive and impoverished areas -- or have a picture of the Korean peninsula from satellite at night. North Korea is dark as a tomb but for a few "show case" areas. South Korea is aglow from stem to stern in contrast.

It seems too painfully similar that people who are "in" think it is horrifying "out here" in the "wog world," and that they have the only hold on solutions or ethics.

In both cases (NK and CoS), the demonization of the rest of the world coupled with suppression (I don't use that word lightly), control, and cut communications with the rest of the world result in gulags -- one focused on a gulag of the soul, the other of the political body.

Good post.

When it comes to the kids this aspect of it so pervasive and overwhelming, in a way that it could never be for those who ever had a life before Scientology. In a "religion" about the supposed science of knowledge, children are never given a chance to make their own decision.

When it is all you have ever known and all you have ever been told, it becomes a completely unexamined fact. You are told and come to believe that the sky is blue and the sun will rise in the east are equal in truth to the fact that you will suffer immeasurably in everlasting pain if you leave.

Then you get tossed out on your ass by those same people with nowhere to go and no one to help you. Super theta!

Man de la Mancha
3rd February 2012, 05:40 PM
When it is all you have ever known and all you have ever been told...
I knew several people in the Sea Org who had been in Scn since early childhood, and I have often wondered what sort of unique challenges they might face in the "real world". Many lifetime Scientologists had integrated the entire Scientology dictionary into their vocabularies, which is fine as long as everyone around you also speaks Scn-ese.

Even after just 4 year in Scn, I recall resisting the urge to say things like "make it go right" and "enturbulate" unless I was with Scientologists. I never did stop saying "make it go right", and the 'wogs' love it. On the other hand, "Dev-T" or "not-is" might be more problematic.

Did any lifetime or longtime Scientologists ever have difficulty expressing themselves in everyday "wog world" situations?

I would also like to say to all those raised in Scientology that, while you may not be 100% accustomed to the "wog world", most of it is less demanding and more compassionate. The average "wog" isn't going to care that you were in Scientology, and many will be interested in a first hand account. Be honest and don't act like you have something to hide. Don't abandon everything you may have gotten from Scientology just because you leave the church. As a Scientology kid, you are probably able to work 16 hours a day without blinking. That gives you a big advantage in the "wog world". Use this as a springboard to make your life whatever you want it to be, with or without Scientology.

Also, please tell me if I should make a new thread for this. I'm sort of a message board rookie.

Crashed Alien
4th February 2012, 09:25 AM
I had to jump in here.

LRH created the Cadet Org and under his direct watch, during his life as "source" I and countless other children were abused, malnourished, mistreated, neglected and abandoned, with his absolute knowledge and at least his tacit consent.

So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. Fuck LRH and fuck anyone who defends him.

And for the love of all things holy, can you people please stop talking about the barley formula? Is the thread entitled Sea Org Children: The Final Solution or Sea Org Children: The worst thing that ever happened to them was Barley Formula?

cadet,

You certainly did just jump in here.

You may be very upset about something, but your anger and hatred has overwhelmed and masked what you are probably trying to say which is a shame as what have to say is probably of great value.

In my view, what came across in your post was a reactionary response to something that you did not like... What you put was inflammatory and so far as I can see could easily get others, including the recipient (me) very upset...

Therefore, I can only say that it was not only ill considered but was also ill mannered.

That kind of post is likely to spark hostility and anger, rather than open up a subject and get a clearer picture of what is trying to be said...

If you have something to say, then please do so, but please do not behave like a thug, as I am sure you are not one... But this is what came across in your post (from my view as the recipient).

From my experience, hatred is an emotion that usually destroys the person who is doing the hating and rarely even touches the thing that is hated...

I know this as I have in the past had pretty extreme hatred myself - It did me no favours and no good at all and I would say probably did me a great deal of harm. i.e. I did myself a great deal of harm by hating... it is corrosive and eats away at one... Not good at all my friend, not good at all.

Most of us here have issues with aspects of Scientology or the Sea-Organisation, or we would not be here... Some worse than others, some none at all but they like to jump in and seem important, some who lurk, some who stir up trouble, etc...

However, all are people with unique experiences, shared experiences and most of all with feelings. You included.

I did find your post quite offensive as it not only inferred something that was not even mentioned by saying "F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him"... I was neither attacking nor defending him...

I should also point out that you have effectively stated in your post that you are unwilling to discuss it any further with the words "So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him."

Your opinion is obviously very important... So why not discuss it in a manner that allows it to be discussed.

I am still trying to come to terms with what I have recently discovered as well as the experiences that I have had - I have many contradictions and missing details that I am trying to sort out. I have family and friends still on staff, I have family and friends still completely involved with the subject of Scientology.

I have been involved since 1964... I grew up living, breathing and eating the subject, the ethos, the way of life...

This is a very difficult time for me. I am in a state of turmoil and am trying to sort this out... You may understand if you have ever been involved and immersed in the subject, or you may not.

However, if you choose to continue posting in this manner, you are likely to become labelled as a trouble maker, or even a fanatic by me and possibly even by others and then you would have no voice, you would have silenced yourself...

That would not help you at all, would it? It certainly would not help anyone else when you did say something important as you would be ignored in the same way that you would ignore the rantings of a fanatic or lunatic...

Whatever you do, please consider your words and why you are saying them, put those details down in your post so that we can see where you are coming from... I personally would love to know as I really do like people and really do care - If you do not want to , then fair enough, that too is up to you...

I hope you read this in the constructive an friendly manner in which I wrote it.

Whatever you do, I wish you well.

Crash

Crashed Alien
4th February 2012, 09:29 AM
I knew several people in the Sea Org who had been in Scn since early childhood, and I have often wondered what sort of unique challenges they might face in the "real world". Many lifetime Scientologists had integrated the entire Scientology dictionary into their vocabularies, which is fine as long as everyone around you also speaks Scn-ese.

Even after just 4 year in Scn, I recall resisting the urge to say things like "make it go right" and "enturbulate" unless I was with Scientologists. I never did stop saying "make it go right", and the 'wogs' love it. On the other hand, "Dev-T" or "not-is" might be more problematic.

Did any lifetime or longtime Scientologists ever have difficulty expressing themselves in everyday "wog world" situations?

I would also like to say to all those raised in Scientology that, while you may not be 100% accustomed to the "wog world", most of it is less demanding and more compassionate. The average "wog" isn't going to care that you were in Scientology, and many will be interested in a first hand account. Be honest and don't act like you have something to hide. Don't abandon everything you may have gotten from Scientology just because you leave the church. As a Scientology kid, you are probably able to work 16 hours a day without blinking. That gives you a big advantage in the "wog world". Use this as a springboard to make your life whatever you want it to be, with or without Scientology.

Also, please tell me if I should make a new thread for this. I'm sort of a message board rookie.

Man de la Mancha,

Thank you for that... It was really great. I have been in Scientology since 1964 and have been operating in the non-Scientology arena for a long time.

I really understand what you are saying...

Crash

solo
4th February 2012, 06:14 PM
Axion142,

I know... I meant if it were being made to the old recipe. The Romans used honey (They also added alcohol to make a great drink apparently...)

I know about the FSA stance on honey and I myself would not, and have not taken that chance with my children.



I also think it is madness to use it as the only food... I have experience of three of my own children growing up and know a lot about nutrition, health and so forth. I am always careful to ensure that they have loads of fresh food, fruit, vegetables as well as cooked food... and their fair share of sweets of course

The abstract you gave is an appalling case... I am horrified buy it... It is interesting how people in the Church seem to become zombies with no apparent ability to use common sense or show signs of rational thought or self-determinism... I am pretty much speechless about the poor child...

I would have hoped that this report would induce a social reaction and that the child would be taken into care until such time as the parents were fit to look after her...

Again, sorry for any confusion...

Crash

Hi Crash,

in my experience as a nanny at London Org, the babies there were fed the barley formula as their sole source of nutrition, because Ron said it was good for them, and their parents were "on source" execs who followed his advice on everything.

Solo

Crashed Alien
4th February 2012, 06:37 PM
Hi Crash,

in my experience as a nanny at London Org, the babies there were fed the barley formula as their sole source of nutrition, because Ron said it was good for them, and their parents were "on source" execs who followed his advice on everything.

Solo

Hi Solo,

Thanks for that - It is an interesting point being "on source" which once meant understanding and using the technology in the context in which it was written.

Somehow, and I am not sure when or how or why, it became, "Follow the words without thinking or using them in context"... Even a sub-set of the words appears to be acceptable!

May not seem that bad, but an example was me being "regged" to buy the entire set of books and tapes for the basics... I told the person it would not be necessary as a friend of mine had bought them and had offered me the use of them if I ever wanted to do the course...

Nice friend, I love her dearly... Very kind offer.

The "Reg" told me that LRH has stated that each student must have their own set of materials and that I must buy them...

I knew this was a bunch of, so I asked for the policy he was referring to...

He had to get it so called me back in a couple of hours.

Turned out it was stated in a policy, but in the context that the organisation was not a library for people to use when studying... When a person was on course, they could not "borrow" items from the org, they must bring their own...

It did not state that it must be their own personal copy, it was that it was not one of the org's copies...

Take that to extremes and people are being "Told" that it is on policy and are following it blindly without question...

No one seems to question anything, or even read the policies..

No wonder things have gone to pot!

Crash

cadet
4th February 2012, 06:50 PM
Forget it. I will go back to lurking.

Veda
4th February 2012, 06:56 PM
For some, even "in context," this sort of stuff is not acceptable:

From 7 March 1965, 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game Law':

"A suppressive person or group becomes 'fair game'.

"By Fair Game is meant, without rights for self, possessions or position, and no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a Suppressive Person or group...

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] continued membership in a divergent group; continued adherence to a Suppressive Person or group pronounced a Suppressive Person or group by HCO; failure to handle or disavow or disconnect from a person demonstrably guilty of suppressive acts; being at the hire of anti-Scientology groups or persons...

"[Suppressive acts also include] 1st degree murder, arson, disintegration of persons or belongings not [emphasis added] guilty of suppressive acts.

"[Suppressive Persons] place themselves beyond any consideration for their feelings or well being...

"The homes, property, places, and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppressive Scientology... are all beyond any protection."

And,

15 August 1969, 'Discipline - SPs and Administration'

"I'm not interested in wog morality... if anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate or stop Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."

And there's lots more where that came from... :)


According to L. Ron Hubbard, the context for Scientology is a universe dominated by suppressive psych implanters, with a dwindling spiral sucking beings down to becoming "BTs" and then "MEST," with Scientology the "only hope for Man." In that context, almost anything is justifiable to "Keep Scientology Working."

Cherished
4th February 2012, 10:20 PM
Forget it. I will go back to lurking.
Don't do that, cadet.

Both you and crash are entitled to say what you think and express how you feel. It's okay that you feel angry and express it. Many of us are comfortable with that. Anger is a legitimate response to injustice.

I can see that crash may have felt your post directed at him and your anger also. That probably wasn't helpful for him. But do keep communicating, won't you?

Axiom142
4th February 2012, 10:27 PM
Don't do that, cadet.

Both you and crash are entitled to say what you think and express how you feel. It's okay that you feel angry and express it. Many of us are comfortable with that. Anger is a legitimate response to injustice.

I can see that crash may have felt your post directed at him and your anger also. That probably wasn't helpful for him. But do keep communicating, won't you?

I second this.

Lurking is better than doing nothing, but you will get a lot more out of participating. We have a broad range of views here and sometimes things get a little heated. Personally I have greatly benefitted by having my views and opinions challenged and having to defend them. Sometimes I have even changed my mind!

It was only by taking part and debating that I have been able to learn and grow.

Axiom142

cadet
4th February 2012, 11:50 PM
cadet,

You certainly did just jump in here.

You may be very upset about something, but your anger and hatred has overwhelmed and masked what you are probably trying to say which is a shame as what have to say is probably of great value.

In my view, what came across in your post was a reactionary response to something that you did not like... What you put was inflammatory and so far as I can see could easily get others, including the recipient (me) very upset...

Therefore, I can only say that it was not only ill considered but was also ill mannered.

That kind of post is likely to spark hostility and anger, rather than open up a subject and get a clearer picture of what is trying to be said...

If you have something to say, then please do so, but please do not behave like a thug, as I am sure you are not one... But this is what came across in your post (from my view as the recipient).

From my experience, hatred is an emotion that usually destroys the person who is doing the hating and rarely even touches the thing that is hated...

I know this as I have in the past had pretty extreme hatred myself - It did me no favours and no good at all and I would say probably did me a great deal of harm. i.e. I did myself a great deal of harm by hating... it is corrosive and eats away at one... Not good at all my friend, not good at all.

Most of us here have issues with aspects of Scientology or the Sea-Organisation, or we would not be here... Some worse than others, some none at all but they like to jump in and seem important, some who lurk, some who stir up trouble, etc...

However, all are people with unique experiences, shared experiences and most of all with feelings. You included.

I did find your post quite offensive as it not only inferred something that was not even mentioned by saying "F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him"... I was neither attacking nor defending him...

I should also point out that you have effectively stated in your post that you are unwilling to discuss it any further with the words "So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him."

Your opinion is obviously very important... So why not discuss it in a manner that allows it to be discussed.

I am still trying to come to terms with what I have recently discovered as well as the experiences that I have had - I have many contradictions and missing details that I am trying to sort out. I have family and friends still on staff, I have family and friends still completely involved with the subject of Scientology.

I have been involved since 1964... I grew up living, breathing and eating the subject, the ethos, the way of life...

This is a very difficult time for me. I am in a state of turmoil and am trying to sort this out... You may understand if you have ever been involved and immersed in the subject, or you may not.

However, if you choose to continue posting in this manner, you are likely to become labelled as a trouble maker, or even a fanatic by me and possibly even by others and then you would have no voice, you would have silenced yourself...

That would not help you at all, would it? It certainly would not help anyone else when you did say something important as you would be ignored in the same way that you would ignore the rantings of a fanatic or lunatic...

Whatever you do, please consider your words and why you are saying them, put those details down in your post so that we can see where you are coming from... I personally would love to know as I really do like people and really do care - If you do not want to , then fair enough, that too is up to you...

I hope you read this in the constructive an friendly manner in which I wrote it.

Whatever you do, I wish you well.

Crash

You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.

I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.

I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.

Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26179-my-dad-took-us-all-in-and-we-had-no-choices&p=656033#post656033)

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.

Free to shine
5th February 2012, 12:24 AM
Cadet, I am glad you are going to keep talking, thankyou.

You don’t have to apologise for arriving at anger. You say “I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own.” .... well we all have our different struggles and your only responsibility here IS to be true and honest for yourself. As long as the Board rules are followed – ie don’t personally attack another poster, go for it baby! If someone has a problem with your views on Hubbard etc, well that is their problem and by reading here they have the chance to find out the truth about the man, rather than the myth.

Yes personal stories are often hard to read and many tears have been shed about them. Are tears more acceptable than anger?

IMO it is vital that the people who endured scientology at it’s worst speak up loud and clear. How else can the world come to understand the depth of the abuse and mind control? The thing that keeps me going is the children, not only what happened to so many in the last 50 years but also the ones still enduring that kind of upbringing.

I am 2nd generation, raised from 14 in scio, as were 5 siblings, my own children and a granddaughter I don’t know. The stories from one family alone are enough for a bloody big book. It’s one subject I also get very angry about and to this day struggle with the indoctrination that affects the family still, not only the obvious disconnection but all those small concepts that can make life so difficult until you become aware of them, which many in my family are not.

Thank God I didn’t endure what you did, and I have the utmost respect for anyone who come out the other side of that.

Let your words cause ripples in the complacency of scientologists and educate the ones who don't yet understand the full effects of scientology on children! :)

Mick Wenlock
5th February 2012, 01:00 AM
You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.


Yes, a very key point in recovering ourselves is putting back the barriers and forcing others to respect them.


I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.


Quite right - you have no need to apologize at all. You have the right to be angry about what happened to you and to a lot of children who should never, ever have been placed in such grotesque and unforgiveable conditions.

Anger is a totally appropriate reaction to abuse - and it has nothing to do with the tone scale.



I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.


Well, those who cannot deal with it all should not be reading it. This is a place for exes and a lot of us have a lot of issues that we have or are dealing with. Talk your talk - what you have to say is valuable. If nothing else it reminds some of us of what we enabled by being in the Sea Org.



I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.


please do not feel that apologies are needed - they are not. Just be you.



So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.


that is good to know. Glad that you have succeeded.



Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26179-my-dad-took-us-all-in-and-we-had-no-choices&p=656033#post656033)

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.

I am looking forward to reading what you have to say.

Bea Kiddo
5th February 2012, 01:08 AM
Cadet: If you ever need someone to rant to, feel free to PM me. I will talk to you. I understand what you have been through.

Not sure if you read my story, but a brief bit here: I was born in Scn, raised in the CEO and Cadet Org (While totally and completely ignored by my mother), joined the SO. Long out. Declared SP now for out 2D. (I got up to OT V and Flag trained Class VI C/S GAT)

Now out, married with a little girl. Very happy. I have publicly spoken out about Scn abortion (St Petersburg Times interview video and article).

I hope you find some understanding from this website. It has taken me years to peel the layers of crap. I still have Scn dreams (nightmares), still have mannerisms from Scn, it is INGRAINED in me and is very frustrating sometimes. It can take time. And your view my change, get worse, get better, then worse again. It's a rollercoaster ride and can take time, a lot of time. Take it at your own pace.

Again, if you want, I would be more than happy to talk to you, either by PM or by phone.

- Bea

cayce-case-um
5th February 2012, 03:53 AM
Cadet -- thanks for continuing to post.

As Bea Kiddo commented, it can take years (even decades) to peel away the layers. That's sure been true for me too.

Therefore we exes are all over the map. As to the "tech" we probably range from the tech works at least in part to it is all bogus. As to corporate CoS we might range from "it's messed up because it is not following LRH policies" to "it is messed up _precisely because_ it is following LRH policies." Some of us have friends and loved ones who are in, others don't. So we'll all have a range of responses to various views I guess.

This thread does remind me of something I decided sometime back. I think that _any_ religious indoctrination of children should be considered a violation of basic human rights and should be considered a crime.

Of course, that would put a huge onus on religions to actually make some kind of valid sense to adults who are considering their options to express their "simian god gene." As long as the state of education of humankind (esp. in areas like logic, analytical reasoning, statistics, and critical thinking) remains so weak, religions could always find adult converts, so why not let their children be free?

cayce-case-um
5th February 2012, 04:27 AM
.... For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again....

This brings up a question that I suspect has crossed the minds of more than one of us -- what happens to our auditing files? If we are declared and fair-gamed, all that sacred confessional crap obviously goes out the window. (Any "horrid" psychologist or psychiatrist who violated a similar patient-practioner trust would lose the right to practice -- how much wiser is the "wog" world than Scn on this point.) That question could be a whole new thread.

Sticking to this thread, I am reminded of this video on sec checks for children ages 6-12. This is really a bonkers treatment of children in my opinion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmnBXcYN9Q

Geeze. All I had to do with my daughter once when she was around two was give her a time out. When she realized that the time outs would get longer if she misbehaved, she got it and was fine. She needed no parental (much less "church") intrusion into her mind.

How typical it is of any totalitarian system that it is you who must get in agreement with the group even when the group is clearly wrong, wrong, wrong. (Take Cool Hand Luke -- ".... you're gonna get your mind right. And I mean RIGHT ....").

It's bad enough that adults have to go through sec checks -- but man do I feel for kids who had to go through such BS.

Axiom142
5th February 2012, 10:10 AM


For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.



I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

...


Cadet, you have every right to be angry. The treatment of children in the CoS and particularly the Sea Org, is something that makes a lot of people angry, including me.

I understand what you say about wanting to preserve your privacy and finding other personal stories uncomfortable to read. However, if no one told their story, then no one would know what happened. We can’t change what has happened in the past, but we can at least bring to account those responsible for the abuses, and stop it happening in the future. But to do this we have to get support from those responsible for protecting the human rights of others and enforcing the laws.

One way is to document all these personal stories and produce them as evidence. These can be passed to the media, as has already happened, and pressure applied to the ‘authorities’. It is an unfortunate fact that often those in positions of power will only act if they receive enough pressure from the media or other vocal groups. If we make enough noise, then they will have to act.

And, if nothing else, telling one’s story is a very cathartic experience. So many times, I have seen people carry around the burden of their experiences and suffering and not even realise how much it is affecting their lives right now. The simple action of talking about what they went through, especially with sympathetic and understanding people with shared experiences, can work miracles.

There was a time when I was very angry with my local organisation (St Hill Foundation), especially when they tried to weasel out of returning the money that I had on account for unused services. But then, I thought, “Who am I angry at?”

The staff who are over-worked, under-rested and constantly battling against unrealistic targets and huge pressure who can’t confront the problem of finding £20,000 when they can’t afford the basics of a decent life for themselves? They are worse off than me. Much worse in fact, they are stuck in a brainwashing cult - I escaped.

Once I realised this, things became a lot easier for me and I wasn’t consumed by my anger. Yes, I still feel anger when I read of some horrific personal experience or how the cult continues to abuse the human rights of others, but it doesn’t dominate my feeling towards the members of the cult. Mostly I feel sadness and pity.

I hope that you will continue to keep talking, you are valued here.

Axiom142

solo
5th February 2012, 11:46 AM
There is another discussion about children in the SO currently going on in the Org Watch section, titled St Hill. Don't know if the posts can be merged?

Crashed Alien
5th February 2012, 09:56 PM
You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.

I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.

I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.

Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26179-my-dad-took-us-all-in-and-we-had-no-choices&p=656033#post656033)

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.

Cadet,

Thank you. I am moved by your reply... Really moved.

It is good to hear you.

I took a quick look at CJR's Story and will need to go back to it to give it the attention it deserves...

I ask for no apology... I apologise if I inferred I did... I too am pretty angry about certain things and also no longer feel the need to answer to others.

We must all do what we must do - I respond with anger when I am hurting and upset... I assumed you might too.

Glad it seems to be true... Glad you are not just a person stirring it up.

I am truly sorry that you are so angry, but am very glad to hear that you are not eaten with hate... That takes a very long time to heal, a very long time indeed if it ever actually does heal.

I do not demand anything from you but am glad that you posted this reply.

I too considered carefully how to reply to your original post... and this one.

Thank you for your consideration and the care you took in replying to me, I appreciate the time and effort you took and understand how difficult it is to say things in a clear way when so deeply upset... When one is hurting like this.

I hope that you do communicate when you feel like it, and don't when you don't feel like it. That is the way it should be, in my view.

I am the same.

It is a nice thing to have... Freedom. The freedom to do what one wants to do - Right or wrong.... Mistake or not... But one can!

Real people will, despite their own upsets and shortcomings, be there if you do ever want to say anything in whatever way you need to - ... I could have just responded to your post with a hostile and curt response... But I can't do that - my heart wont let me treat people like that.

I am glad that you decided to keep talking, "even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and you come across as a fanatic".

Just remember, people like me might just care enough to answer you and to respond with the new found compassion that we have discovered.

If you ever notice me ranting, or being fanatic, let me know... It is always good for me to see that others care too...

I hope you enjoyed your evening.

Crash

cayce-case-um
6th February 2012, 02:58 AM
Just musing to myself. OK, let's say it is true that a kid is a timeless thetan in a young body.

Does it really follow logically from that that a kid has all the responsibilities of an adult? It's obvious the body has to develop. You don't expect that timeless thetan to be able to walk and use the toilet immediately on birth.

And no one expects that timeless thetan to emerge from birth fully able to speak -- that means some brain development has to occur. To use a Scn term, this is really observation of the obvious -- obnosis.

Since it is obvious that thetans do not emerge as babies capable of the full range of "wog" adult responsibilities -- or even Scn capabilities, then how exactly did Scn establish how and at what level kids would be held responsible? (That's a rhetorical question -- but it seems to me that the answer lies in LRH's own childhood experiences and resentments.)

My mind is still reeling from the reality of sec checks on 6 year olds. And before age 6, I guess you are off the hook from sec checks but as a timeless thetan you don't need that stupid love an parental attention that any idiot "wog" can tell you is crucial to human development of language and well being.

Methinks the emperor does have clothes after all, and that he looks good in black.

Bea Kiddo
6th February 2012, 03:16 AM
Just musing to myself. OK, let's say it is true that a kid is a timeless thetan in a young body.

Does it really follow logically from that that a kid has all the responsibilities of an adult? It's obvious the body has to develop. You don't expect that timeless thetan to be able to walk and use the toilet immediately on birth.

And no one expects that timeless thetan to emerge from birth fully able to speak -- that means some brain development has to occur. To use a Scn term, this is really observation of the obvious -- obnosis.

Since it is obvious that thetans do not emerge as babies capable of the full range of "wog" adult responsibilities -- or even Scn capabilities, then how exactly did Scn establish how and at what level kids would be held responsible? (That's a rhetorical question -- but it seems to me that the answer lies in LRH's own childhood experiences and resentments.)

My mind is still reeling from the reality of sec checks on 6 year olds. And before age 6, I guess you are off the hook from sec checks but as a timeless thetan you don't need that stupid love an parental attention that any idiot "wog" can tell you is crucial to human development of language and well being.

Methinks the emperor does have clothes after all, and that he looks good in black.

You kid? Just curious.

Your description above is how it is being raised in the Sea Org. There is no patience in teaching. There is ethics for not knowing already.

And I have seen kids under age 6 get sec checks.

Crashed Alien
6th February 2012, 11:38 AM
Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26179-my-dad-took-us-all-in-and-we-had-no-choices&p=656033#post656033)

cadet,

I read this. Actually, I read it a few times.

There is not a lot I can say about it right now, I am very upset - I have seen a few of this "type" of story posted - And I am not saying that to belittle it or categorise it - I am appalled - CJR is very brave and has suffered an ordeal that I would not wish, and would not inflict on anyone.

I was born into Scientology too. I have been involved to one degree or another since 1964...

I did not have this dreadful experience - Mine was quite different... and I am not sure right now if it was better or worse, or on the same level... I find I can't talk about it yet - I am not ready - It is all confused and wound up like a ball of string in my mind. I am trying to unravel it.

It must be part of waking up, getting back to reality and establishing just where things are messed up... It is hard to know where to start at the moment.

I feel so upset for CJR that I want to somehow take the hurt away... I almost feel bad that I didn't have the experience instead - that it happened to CJR and not to me. But then, at the same time I'm glad that it didn't. That feels wrong, sounds wrong... Not sure if I am making sense now...

All we can do is offer a supportive and helping hand.

And hopefully, CJR will be a little bit happier and will recover as much as is possible. I do hope so.


I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

I am glad to hear that, very glad.

You have already helped me a great deal, and I am very grateful, I thank you for that...

I am not sure where I'd be right now if you, and others who have been supportive and open had not been there...

Happily, that's not a road I now need to tread!

Crash

Crashed Alien
6th February 2012, 12:16 PM
Cadet, you have every right to be angry. The treatment of children in the CoS and particularly the Sea Org, is something that makes a lot of people angry, including me.

I understand what you say about wanting to preserve your privacy and finding other personal stories uncomfortable to read. However, if no one told their story, then no one would know what happened. We can’t change what has happened in the past, but we can at least bring to account those responsible for the abuses, and stop it happening in the future. But to do this we have to get support from those responsible for protecting the human rights of others and enforcing the laws.

One way is to document all these personal stories and produce them as evidence. These can be passed to the media, as has already happened, and pressure applied to the ‘authorities’. It is an unfortunate fact that often those in positions of power will only act if they receive enough pressure from the media or other vocal groups. If we make enough noise, then they will have to act.

And, if nothing else, telling one’s story is a very cathartic experience. So many times, I have seen people carry around the burden of their experiences and suffering and not even realise how much it is affecting their lives right now. The simple action of talking about what they went through, especially with sympathetic and understanding people with shared experiences, can work miracles.

There was a time when I was very angry with my local organisation (St Hill Foundation), especially when they tried to weasel out of returning the money that I had on account for unused services. But then, I thought, “Who am I angry at?”

The staff who are over-worked, under-rested and constantly battling against unrealistic targets and huge pressure who can’t confront the problem of finding £20,000 when they can’t afford the basics of a decent life for themselves? They are worse off than me. Much worse in fact, they are stuck in a brainwashing cult - I escaped.

Once I realised this, things became a lot easier for me and I wasn’t consumed by my anger. Yes, I still feel anger when I read of some horrific personal experience or how the cult continues to abuse the human rights of others, but it doesn’t dominate my feeling towards the members of the cult. Mostly I feel sadness and pity.

I hope that you will continue to keep talking, you are valued here.

Axiom142

Thank you for that post - It is all so true - I have similar feelings although not quite as calm and settled (yet?).

Crash

La La Lou Lou
6th February 2012, 12:34 PM
My question is if there are any kids around saint hill now, a cadet org or young teenagers recruited along with their parents or by themselves. I understand the past neglect and abuse of kids, but what of now?

La La Lou Lou
6th February 2012, 01:20 PM
Any of you guys with trauma that's hard to deal with, there are organisations that help adult survivors of child neglect and abuse. Good counselling does really help and it's nothing like auditing. These are UK based, other areas have their own, and there's plenty more on google.

http://www.supportline.org.uk/problems/child_abuse_survivors.php

If there was any sexual abuse these guys are great
http://www.thesurvivorstrust.org/

solo
6th February 2012, 07:56 PM
My question is if there are any kids around saint hill now, a cadet org or young teenagers recruited along with their parents or by themselves. I understand the past neglect and abuse of kids, but what of now?

There is still a Sea Org school at Walsh Manor, near Crowborough. You can look up its OFSTED report. Of course, it all looks lovely, blah blah! Most of them unsurprisingly, do their "work experience" at Saint Hill........

Solo

La La Lou Lou
6th February 2012, 08:30 PM
Yes the inspector seems to have been impressed.

solo
6th February 2012, 09:09 PM
Yes the inspector seems to have been impressed.

Surprise surprise! Were you ever involved in the berthing re-organizations at Stonelands when a council inspection was expected?

Solo

La La Lou Lou
7th February 2012, 10:10 AM
Ah yes, the moving of furniture into storage just in time for inspectors to see a nicely ordered space. Yes I had done some shifting of beds. It was probably the Ballroom, which could look quite good when tarted up. Stonelands was supposed to be a school too wasn't it? Would you call that strangely devious behaviour for a 'church'?

I must say though with only 12 pupils it's not surprising that there is a good atmosphere, normal UK schools are having 30 plus in a class, with a few high and a few looking out for their chemical supplier. These kids spend half their study time drilling how to make it look like you really do study every weekday.I wonder though how often they get to do their class work, and how often they stuff envelopes.

Perhaps these ofsted inspectors need to guided where to look.

solo
7th February 2012, 10:49 AM
Ah yes, the moving of furniture into storage just in time for inspectors to see a nicely ordered space. Yes I had done some shifting of beds. It was probably the Ballroom, which could look quite good when tarted up. Stonelands was supposed to be a school too wasn't it? Would you call that strangely devious behaviour for a 'church'?

I must say though with only 12 pupils it's not surprising that there is a good atmosphere, normal UK schools are having 30 plus in a class, with a few high and a few looking out for their chemical supplier. These kids spend half their study time drilling how to make it look like you really do study every weekday.I wonder though how often they get to do their class work, and how often they stuff envelopes.

Perhaps these ofsted inspectors need to guided where to look.

Yes, if only they would arrive unannounced! I guess the kids at Walsh Manor look like they're getting a brilliant education - small class sizes, study tech, good behaviour, etc. Pity the inspectors don't see the o/w write-ups, ethics orders, etc, that bring about this "good" behaviour. Or the lack of time with their parents.

I didn't know Stonelands was supposed to be a school. I remember the ballroom being moved around, numerous beds disappeared into storage quite regularly....

Solo

La La Lou Lou
7th February 2012, 11:04 AM
From what I remember the Stonelands building had been a school before so rather than getting planning permission to use it as something else they just pretended it was a school to the local council, who didn't believe it at all and in the end caught them with their proverbial trousers down.

There's a compulsion that scn execs have that makes them take any complicated and untruthful solution to simple problems, rather than follow the rules. A refusal to follow 'wog' policy. They really have no idea how stupid they look to all the authorities that deal with them.

A simple planning application would have legally changed the status of the building and there would have been no need for endless man hours of furniture shifting. They wouldn't have needed spies in the council either. All because of a failure to complete a cycle of action, proof of an SP!

SweetnessandLight
14th February 2012, 05:42 PM
I just want to post a link to another excellent thread on the subject of children in the Sea Org started in 2009. It focuses on illegal recruitment of minors by COS and the treatment of parents who rightly object to it. :grouch:

Please take a look at it:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?12217-Children-Stolen-by-the-Sea-Org

Thanks. This is a HUGE human rights issue. :angry:

For anyone who is dealing with this now...do NOT be afraid to assert your parental rights over your child. You yourself are breaking the law if you do not personally insure your child's welfare. Minors in California and most other places can not legally sign a contract, especially one of this magnitude. It's not legally binding, it's a sham.

If ANYONE is pressuring you to "allow" a so-called "guardian" to enable your minor child to work illegally as a nearly unpaid slave in the Sea Org, go to your local Social Services, go to law enforcement, go to the local media and tell the truth about your experiences with COS. If ANYONE approaches your child at school or elsewhere when not in your presence, and hard sells them the Sea Org, or takes your child somewhere without your knowledge and permission to secretly try to recruit your child and bullies them into signing a Sea Org contract, which is legally unenforceable, contact law enforcement and press charges against them for kidnapping, unlawful detention, and interfering with a minor! :grouch:

Teach your children about this, educate and warn them that someone will try to recruit them, and that they cannot legally sign a contract while they are underage and that you will not allow them to join until they are a grown up, and have completely finished their education, including at least Community College or a trade school (now called a technical college, as many can earn college degrees), and are at least 21 years of age. Period. :clap:

Scientology, especially COS, is a dangerous and destructive CULT...stop feeding children into this Cult. Educate yourself as to the reality of this group, and your child's legal rights and YOUR legal responsibilities to your child.

I think it's only a matter of time before we see parents prosecuted for parental abandonment and neglect, as more activists get involved with reporting ongoing abuses to law enforcement.

And while we are at it, why are you still supporting this CULT once you know the truth about the systemic abuse with which they treat children and minors?

SweetnessandLight
14th February 2012, 06:08 PM
This brings up a question that I suspect has crossed the minds of more than one of us -- what happens to our auditing files? If we are declared and fair-gamed, all that sacred confessional crap obviously goes out the window. (Any "horrid" psychologist or psychiatrist who violated a similar patient-practioner trust would lose the right to practice -- how much wiser is the "wog" world than Scn on this point.) That question could be a whole new thread.

Sticking to this thread, I am reminded of this video on sec checks for children ages 6-12. This is really a bonkers treatment of children in my opinion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmnBXcYN9Q

Geeze. All I had to do with my daughter once when she was around two was give her a time out. When she realized that the time outs would get longer if she misbehaved, she got it and was fine. She needed no parental (much less "church") intrusion into her mind.

How typical it is of any totalitarian system that it is you who must get in agreement with the group even when the group is clearly wrong, wrong, wrong. (Take Cool Hand Luke -- ".... you're gonna get your mind right. And I mean RIGHT ....").

It's bad enough that adults have to go through sec checks -- but man do I feel for kids who had to go through such BS.

Thank you very much Casey, for bringing up this excellent point! One which I wish ALL Scientologists would acknowledge. And what happens to files in Independent or Free Zone auditing, too? You're right, this topic does deserve a whole 'nother thread! :thumbsup:

SweetnessandLight
14th February 2012, 07:22 PM
Okay, I'm not imposing this thought on anyone, and I don't mean to turn people off, but especially where kids and families are concerned, I think I should speak my truth about this, as so many people can potentially benefit. :thumbsup:

To my way of thinking, everyone who leaves Scientology after having been in for a long time or to a great degree (in SO or on staff, or certainly RAISED in it) needs some form of exit counseling to aide in the transition to life in the real world. Not to imply that they are damaged or unable, just that the experience of being part of this Cult is overwhelming, and life altering, at best mind-bending and socially restricting, and at worst traumatic as mental, emotional, physical and financial abuse has occurred, and we all need help to deal with overwhelming situations or circumstances in our lives. :) Being in a cult is just one such situation. There is absolutely no shame in asking for help when you need it, or when someone in your family does! This can effect the well-being of everyone in the family. :thumbsup:

This counseling and support can take place in many venues and through many forms, both formal and informal. :thumbsup: Much of it is happening right here and right now on this forum, by us all talking and sharing our stories and thoughts and feelings about issues! :)

Much takes place informally between romantic partners and the families and friends of Exes. Thank God for all of the help and support that is available now, as so much more knowledge is public now, thanks to the Internet, about Scientology's abuses over the years since it's inception.

More formal or structured counseling can also be found in many places, support and self-help groups, like 12 step and other self-help programs, even like Weight Watchers! Don't be afraid to do some research on line to learn a little bit about types and forms of mental health counseling in the real world. It is not the nightmarish, degrading scenario that Scientology paints it to be. If not for yourself, maybe someone in your family or a friend you know may benefit from what you learn about it. :thumbsup:

There are also licensed clinical social workers who work as "therapists" but do not give drugs or suggest electro-convulsive therapy, in addition to licensed psychologists, who mostly do talking therapy individually or in groups, but also refer people to medical doctors for help when needed. Psychiatrists are licensed and trained medical doctors who specialize in treating people who are medically ill with brain disease and dysfunction and they can prescribe medication, as well as to additionally help people with talking therapy. They are the only counselors or therapists who can prescribe medication.

There are a whole range of educated para-professional counselors, like licensed ministers with certified counseling training, and substance abuse counselors, social workers who teach parenting classes, or counsel kids in foster care and their foster families, trained and credentialed "life coaches" who help people to handle their problems and challenges, etc.

There are many forms and kinds of "talking" therapy. There are also Spiritual Counselors of many types (Ministers, Rabbis, Priests, Monks, Imams, etc.) who by training and experience are there to listen and to help people with their troubles, especially in recovering from emotional and spiritual abuse in a cult. I know some of the posters here have big buttons on religion, and I understand why. But many religious advisors and spiritual counselors are also cross-trained in psychology and serve as mental health counselors as well, certainly not all.

I just want to make the point that counseling help, in MANY forms, is widely widely available. It does not have to be expensive, either. This can speed the healing and recovery process along for Exes who are struggling with any issues, and no one should feel like they have to "work this out" by themselves. Isolation is counter-productive to recovery, for most people. :)

There is no implied criticism by me of anyone who chooses another path, in my pointing out that many forms of counseling and help are widely available, even over the Internet. It's just that, given the demonization of psychiatry and psychology by Ron and his Cult, often those Cult survivors who could benefit from counseling the most understand it their options about it the least, and are the most reluctant or resistant to seek or accept help with healing.

Keep talking, everyone! It helps! :)

Man de la Mancha
14th February 2012, 08:57 PM
And believe me the fault is ALL with us, the parents. Not the children.

The parents certainly share the blame with Scn Inc, but in my opinion parents who speak out fearlessly are more than worthy of forgiveness and understanding. It's people like you who may help save thousands of children from a similar fate, which wouldn't be possible if you were never involved.

I've read some of your posts to those Sea Org kids, and it seems like you are a very sincere and caring person. I'm sure everyone joins me in thanking you for your concern on this issue. I believe the situation with the kids is the first priority. It's frustrating to be so powerless to help.

Crashed Alien
16th February 2012, 10:45 PM
To my way of thinking, everyone who leaves Scientology after having been in for a long time or to a great degree (in SO or on staff, or certainly RAISED in it) needs some form of exit counseling to aide in the transition to life in the real world. Not to imply that they are damaged or unable, just that the experience of being part of this Cult is overwhelming, and life altering, at best mind-bending and socially restricting, and at worst traumatic as mental, emotional, physical and financial abuse has occurred, and we all need help to deal with overwhelming situations or circumstances in our lives. :) Being in a cult is just one such situation. There is absolutely no shame in asking for help when you need it, or when someone in your family does! This can effect the well-being of everyone in the family. :thumbsup:

SweetnessAndLight... Reluctantly, I think you might be right...

I think this counts whether it is a cult or a religion that no longer suits oneself...

I can honestly say that I am having more than a little difficulty transitioning to life in the real world - I have been in the real world for a while, but that makes very little difference.

For me, it is the underlying bullying from the people in the organisation, backed my the organisation's management that has taken its toll...

It is the emotional blackmail, the watching friends and family suffer... Sometimes very subtle things, sometimes blatant!

I feel that my perspective is all over the place, corrupting and interfering with some of my thought processes which are mixed with ones that are not corrupt - Only problem is that it is hard for me alone to tell which is corrupt and which is not.

Am I making any sense at all?

Thank you for your post - I do feel a little less crazy when I hear things that I thought only I was experiencing...

Crash

La La Lou Lou
16th February 2012, 11:06 PM
Crashed, you are not alone believe me.

Sometimes it's the subtle things that are the hardest. They can sneak in without you noticing. It's the crappy broken furniture that is all you are worth, the millions spent on legal fees and yet still can't afford insulation or heating in berthing. Being given a wobbly chair in the dining room or a three high bunk bed in a small draughty room is invalidation. Here you go, you deserve to live like a chicken, woops didn't get all the beans and rice in your trough, you'll probably lick it off the table any way.

olska
16th February 2012, 11:34 PM
...
Thank you for your post - I do feel a little less crazy when I hear things that I thought only I was experiencing...

Crash

I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but you bring up something extremely important:

the freedom to discuss your feelings and experience with others

which can be very, very healing.

Note that in scientology you were not allowed to discuss your "case" except in session with an auditor ... and if you shared your dissatisfaction with the way things were with another, bam here comes the nonenturbulation order from Ethics.

Out in the "wog" world, there are groups of people who get together to share their experience, their strength, their pain, their hope, with the express purpose of helping each other to understand what they've experienced, and heal.

There are consciousness-raising groups, support groups, 12-step groups (like Alcoholics Anonymous and for many, many other issues...), Group Therapy sessions, where members have a chance to talk about what they experienced and share how they are feeling about it, without shame, embarrassment, or make-wrong.

What happens in those kinds of sessions is you VERY QUICKLY find out that you are not the "only one!" You're not "crazy" (or at least no crazier than anyone else :whistling:), and the people with whom you share a common issue understand EXACTLY what you're talking about, and can offer some comfort at the least, and some tips on how to deal with it, and often their own experience of healing and finding their way.

While this is a very natural process to regular human beings, this is "forbidden" and NEVER happens in scientology! As a result, after leaving the cult some people find it very difficult to share their experience -- they feel guilty, they think they're just whining, being a victim, whatever -- all that crap you were fed as a scientologist.

Sharing your experience, and reading the similar experiences of others, is a vital part of the healing process. Use it.

Here on this forum you are free to share whatever is on your mind, and to read the stories of others who've been on a similar trip through the darkness. That is one of the main reasons many of us come here -- to share our experience, our healing, our hope.

Best of luck and good wishes for you.

o

Crashed Alien
18th February 2012, 07:10 PM
I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but you bring up something extremely important:

the freedom to discuss your feelings and experience with others

which can be very, very healing.

Note that in scientology you were not allowed to discuss your "case" except in session with an auditor ... and if you shared your dissatisfaction with the way things were with another, bam here comes the nonenturbulation order from Ethics.

Out in the "wog" world, there are groups of people who get together to share their experience, their strength, their pain, their hope, with the express purpose of helping each other to understand what they've experienced, and heal.

There are consciousness-raising groups, support groups, 12-step groups (like Alcoholics Anonymous and for many, many other issues...), Group Therapy sessions, where members have a chance to talk about what they experienced and share how they are feeling about it, without shame, embarrassment, or make-wrong.

What happens in those kinds of sessions is you VERY QUICKLY find out that you are not the "only one!" You're not "crazy" (or at least no crazier than anyone else :whistling:), and the people with whom you share a common issue understand EXACTLY what you're talking about, and can offer some comfort at the least, and some tips on how to deal with it, and often their own experience of healing and finding their way.

While this is a very natural process to regular human beings, this is "forbidden" and NEVER happens in scientology! As a result, after leaving the cult some people find it very difficult to share their experience -- they feel guilty, they think they're just whining, being a victim, whatever -- all that crap you were fed as a scientologist.

Sharing your experience, and reading the similar experiences of others, is a vital part of the healing process. Use it.

Here on this forum you are free to share whatever is on your mind, and to read the stories of others who've been on a similar trip through the darkness. That is one of the main reasons many of us come here -- to share our experience, our healing, our hope.

Best of luck and good wishes for you.

o

O,

What a really lovely reply to me... Thank you.

Apart from the board here, I am now able to share bits of my experiences with 3 other people! That is quite an achievement for me, but only the first tentative steps of what is currently quite a daunting journey.

I hope you also do well on your journey...

Crash