Heber

[JackieWilson]

Is Heber considered to be a good guy now? Deleted the rest

[Dulloldfart]

The M&Ms on Marty's blog seem to love him. Must be all that chocolate.

The guys here not so much.

Paul

[JackieWilson]

The M&Ms on Marty's blog seem to love him. Must be all that chocolate.

The guys here not so much.

Paul
Thanks! Do you have a link for Marty's blog? Just wanna look.

[Dulloldfart]

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

It's linked from my iCans blog (http://icanspage.wordpress.com). I always go there (in a column on the right) to check if there have been any recent posts to the blogs I follow (I read the posts, maybe not the comments): Marty's, Scientology Cult, Old Auditor's, Leaving Scientology, and Ask the Scientologist. I have an RSS feed there showing the latest three posts of each with the dates, so I (and any readers) can check for updates without chasing all over the place.

Paul

[lkwdblds]

I met him in late 1970 at CCLA and actually got to know him quite well. He became the Deputy Guardian for Finance at CCLA around early 1972 and being in Treasury Division, I worked with him closely processing the weekly financial planning instructions created by the FP committee which I was on for a period of time.

I thought he was a top guy, a real poster boy for Scientology. He had it all, nice presence, was knowledgeable, had a college degree, was affable, funny, could do great dialects, especially German and Russian and he could sing folk songs and musical comedy and dance as well.

I lost touch with him after 1981 and saw him one last time at the Shrine auditorium as 1998 changed into 1999. I ran into him and not only did he remember me but made a real big deal about it and introduced me to his wife and all the people who were in his party. He took about 10 minutes to talk to me personally and find out what I was doing.

After getting on the Internet in 2005, I came across audios and videos of him defending the C of S in the Lisa Mc Pherson case. His defence of the Churche's horrible performance in that case turned me against him.

Its been written on ESMB that DM thinks he is too old now, 75, and he is no longer suitable to be a Scientology spokesperson or Presiedent. That is all I know about him, past and present.
Lakey

[JackieWilson]

Thanks!

[JackieWilson]

I met him in late 1970 at CCLA and actually got to know him quite well. He became the Deputy Guardian for Finance at CCLA around early 1972 and being in Treasury Division, I worked with him closely processing the weekly financial planning instructions created by the FP committee which I was on for a period of time.

I thought he was a top guy, a real poster boy for Scientology. He had it all, nice presence, was knowledgeable, had a college degree, was affable, funny, could do great dialects, especially German and Russian and he could sing folk songs and musical comedy and dance as well.

I lost touch with him after 1981 and saw him one last time at the Shrine auditorium as 1998 changed into 1999. I ran into him and not only did he remember me but made a real big deal about it and introduced me to his wife and all the people who were in his party. He took about 10 minutes to talk to me personally and find out what I was doing.

After getting on the Internet in 2005, I came across audios and videos of him defending the C of S in the Lisa Mc Pherson case. His defence of the Churche's horrible performance in that case turned me against him.

Its been written on ESMB that DM thinks he is too old now, 75, and he is no longer suitable to be a Scientology spokesperson or Presiedent. That is all I know about him, past and present.
Lakey

rmvd

[Thrak]

At this point I would consider him a political prisoner. I think some need to remember that brainwash tech works. Remember Patty Hearst?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst

[Smilla]

At this point I would consider him a political prisoner. I think some need to remember that brainwash tech works. Remember Patty Hearst?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst

That's a very fair point to make.

[AnonKat]

FREE HEBER JENTZSCH !

http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol35I1/img/pg20_2.jpg

[Enthetan]

At this point I would consider him a political prisoner. I think some need to remember that brainwash tech works. Remember Patty Hearst?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst

He knows too much to be allowed to leave Int Base, yet is old enough to need medical care that DM is unlikely to supply. DM's Ideal Scene would be for Heber to have a heart attack, and for 911 to not be called until after he's dead.

[AngeloV]

He knows too much to be allowed to leave Int Base, yet is old enough to need medical care that DM is unlikely to supply. DM's Ideal Scene would be for Heber to have a heart attack, and for 911 to not be called until after he's dead.

As harsh as that may sound to people who have never been in the SO, you are probably right.

[lkwdblds]

Heber's former wife Karen, a Class XII auditor and C/S has just left the Church and posted on Marty's web site and it was immediately put on ESMB as a new thread. All questions relating to Heber and fully answered. Check out the new thread already posted here on ESMB this evening.
Lakey

[Kha Khan]

Heber's former wife Karen, a Class XII auditor and C/S has just left the Church and posted on Marty's web site and it was immediately put on ESMB as a new thread. All questions relating to Heber and fully answered. Check out the new thread already posted here on ESMB this evening.
Lakey

ESMB Thread:
Heber's Ex Karen announces she's now out of CofS (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18930)

WWP Thread: Karen De la carriere/Jentzsch blows the cult (http://forums.whyweprotest.net/325-mark-marty-rathbun/karen-de-la-carriere-jentzsch-blows-cult-68769/)

Original Marty thread and source of new info: LRH-trained Class XII C/S Karen De La Carriere/Jentzsch (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/lrh-trained-class-xii-cs-karen-de-la-carrierejentzsch/)

/

[GoNuclear]

Never minding how he started out, Heber turned into a lying sack of shit pr flog for DM, predating Mike Rinder and now Tommy Davis. While touted as the "president" at one point, everyone knew that was horseshit, DM was the real power ever since LRH went on to audit without a body with an assful of Vistaril and even before. People bought Heber as "president" to the extent that they buy the reality of the World Wrestling Federation, now World Wrestling Entertainment and all of their coreographed staged matches and various feud stories between the wrestler characters and their ever changing alliances. I remember seeing Heber on the tube back in the 90's flogging PR for Cof$, he was as believable to me as any of those WWF 'roid rage wrestlers. The assessment that he obviously knows to much to be released is probably true, and it is probably in DM's best interests to keep him until he drops dead.

Anyone with standing should probably start demanding health and safety checks to "habeus corpus" Heber out of there, no need for him to die behind the walls of the int base.

Pete

[lkwdblds]

You say it very graphically but what you say is all true. The President title never had any power connected to it, he was mainly a PR figurehead. The analogy to a WWF or WWE wrestler is good.

I loved the man in the old days of the early 70's. When he defended the C of S so strongly in the Lisa Mc Pherson case, telling lies right and left, I lost my respect for him. He was at one time a really super and decent guy, quite talented and quite amusing. My hope would be that he gets out of C of S still alive and in reasonably good health and then comes to see the error of his ways in supporting C of S management. and ultimately publishes his memoirs. He has a lot to say, a lot of inside information. For that, he is a danger to current management. They probably do not want to risk his getting out and going public with what he knows.

What a book he could write if he got out and decided to do so. I think that if he got out he would be under a gag order and would have no desire to write a book or make broadly known any of the information which he has.

I think that if he was out he would remain silent as did Mary Sue and as does Diana Hubbard.
Lakey

[Operating Wog]

I was studying at ITO and he and I were on the same course. We often gave each other checkouts and drilled each other. He was a very genial guy. It was hard not to like him, and despite his stature, I never felt overwhelmed or scared in his presence. Very friendly. In the real world, I could totally imagine him as some kind of salesman. Of course, if you sell shit for years, you wind up smelling.

[byte301]

I was studying at ITO and he and I were on the same course. We often gave each other checkouts and drilled each other. He was a very genial guy. It was hard not to like him, and despite his stature, I never felt overwhelmed or scared in his presence. Very friendly. In the real world, I could totally imagine him as some kind of salesman. Of course, if you sell shit for years, you wind up smelling.

Yeah, he came across like a used car salesman or a politician to me. Affable, charming, and slimey to the core.

[Meccaanon]

Most people on the outside were introduced to Heber via an old 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace where they had like a hundred people cramed in some room behind Heber, staring Mike down which added to the creep-out effect. Heber also ended up shouting incoherently on some radio talk show, so much that the host had to cut off his microphone and so he ran over into another room and started shouting into somebody else's mike.

Not a very good first impression.

[Zinjifar]

I've had numerous 'impressions' of Heber; none of them good. I can see how some might have known him otherwise, but, I've had no reason to alter my first or later impressions.

Zinj

[HelluvaHoax!]

My hope would be that he gets out of C of S still alive and in reasonably good health and then comes to see the error of his ways in supporting C of S management. and ultimately publishes his memoirs. He has a lot to say, a lot of inside information. For that, he is a danger to current management. They probably do not want to risk his getting out and going public with what he knows.What a book he could write if he got out and decided to do so. I think that if he got out he would be under a gag order and would have no desire to write a book or make broadly known any of the information which he has.

That would be soooooo cool!

In fact, I will make a deal....

If Heber simply writes (book, blog, post...) the truth he knows about the CoS, I promise to stop using the term Heeber Jeebies.

[Zinjifar]

I doubt seriously that Heber has the chops to have even the slightest idea of what happened to him. I doubt I could read a book by him without being embarassed for both of us.

Zinj

[HelluvaHoax!]

I doubt seriously that Heber has the chops to have even the slightest idea of what happened to him. I doubt I could read a book by him without being embarassed for both of us.

Zinj

Suggested TITLE for Heber's upcoming tell-all-book about his journey of discovery in Scientology:



VENI, VIDI, HOLI.
I came, I saw, I ended up in the hole.

[lkwdblds]

That would be soooooo cool!

In fact, I will make a deal....

If Heber simply writes (book, blog, post...) the truth he knows about the CoS, I promise to stop using the term Heeber Jeebies.

Sounds like a winner. In the meantime how about some Helluva nicknames for Yvonne Jeebies, Karen Jeebies amd Alexander Jeebies. I believe he has a Sister Beatie Jentzsch, she can stay Beatie Jeebies, that has a nice ring to it.

I first saw Heeber Jeebies at L.A. Org in June 1970 when he was age 35. He wore a long red bandana around his head that hung down on the side and he also had long brown hair. His theme song was "Has anyone here seen my old friend Abraham?" What a guy he was, extremely affable, not at all stuck up and so willing to talk to anyone as an equal or a friend or both.

That song has a line in it, "It seems like the good, they do die young." I saw him the last time on New Years' Eve of 1999. At that time he had short white hair but he was still affable, open and friendly. It looks like his reputation as a kind hearted, friendly decent man has "died young." It is not hard to see why and no one can blame the people who feel that way about him. "Has anyone here seen the Original Heber, can you tell me where he's gone?" "He made a lot of friends but those reputations, they do die young. I just turned around and his reputation was gone, lost helping DM".
Lakey

[Smurf]

Never minding how he started out, Heber turned into a lying sack of shit pr flog for DM, predating Mike Rinder and now Tommy Davis.

Anyone with standing should probably start demanding health and safety checks to "habeus corpus" Heber out of there, no need for him to die behind the walls of the int base.

I don't get it. Heber was one of the more vocal & apparent monsters of Scientology when he was in power - and always vocalizing his disgust for the Cult Awareness Network - and all people associated with it, including wholesale participation in a campaign to slander its national director, Cynthia Kisser.

Now, that he's elderly... we should all feel sorry for him. Strange.

[freethinker]

I never liked his Hellfire and Brimstone approach dramatized to the extreme.

But it was a far sight better than listening to snoozer Dan Sherman.

[Thrak]

I first saw Heeber Jeebies at L.A. Org in June 1970 when he was age 35. He wore a read bandana around his head that was long and hung down on the side and he also had long brown hair.

Boy scientology really is a bad trip, or a hippie hangover isn't it He should have never walked in and taken that "comm course".

[HelluvaHoax!]

Boy scientology really is a bad trip, or a hippie hangover isn't it He should have never walked in and taken that "comm course".

lololololololol

Dammmmmmm! Why did I ever enter the theme park called ScientologyLand?

I knew something was wrong at the Main Entrance Gate when they made me surrender my Hendrix poster & blacklight!


http://www.blacklight.com/backroom/backroom.nsf/allitems/6387A35BF6D7AE0C8625765F00787D77/$file/SVP1902.gif


And Jimi ain't talking bout no F/N's bro'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v19VpDyVcM

[HelluvaHoax!]

I don't get it. Heber was one of the more vocal & apparent monsters of Scientology when he was in power - and always vocalizing his disgust for the Cult Awareness Network - and all people associated with it, including wholesale participation in a campaign to slander its national director, Cynthia Kisser.

Now, that he's elderly... we should all feel sorry for him. Strange.

Very very very politically incorrect. But true as hell, hell, hell.

It's one of those things. Like...

When a guy dies and people carry out his wishes, saying "Lefty would have wanted it that way."

As if Lefty the mugger and murderer ascended to some unspeakably lofty ethical altitude by reason of dropping dead.


LEFTY'S FRIEND: I don't really think we should assault that poor, helpless 90 year old woman and steal her purse, leaving her for dead in the gutter.

LEFTY'S BROTHER: Lefty would have wanted it that way.

LEFTY'S FRIEND: Oh! Sure, in that case let's really fuck her up and steal all her shit.

[I told you I was trouble]

I don't get it. Heber was one of the more vocal & apparent monsters of Scientology when he was in power - and always vocalizing his disgust for the Cult Awareness Network - and all people associated with it, including wholesale participation in a campaign to slander its national director, Cynthia Kisser.

Now, that he's elderly... we should all feel sorry for him. Strange.


Yes, it is strange but I do feel heartbreakingly sorry for him at this moment, no-one should be treated this way no matter what age they are, but be assured my real concern is for the children that are trapped within this cult who are being 'parented' by scientologists and indoctrinated into becoming the next generation of culties.

:yes:

[GoNuclear]

Very very very politically incorrect. But true as hell, hell, hell.

It's one of those things. Like...

When a guy dies and people carry out his wishes, saying "Lefty would have wanted it that way."

As if Lefty the mugger and murderer ascended to some unspeakably lofty ethical altitude by reason of dropping dead.


LEFTY'S FRIEND: I don't really think we should assault that poor, helpless 90 year old woman and steal her purse, leaving her for dead in the gutter.

LEFTY'S BROTHER: Lefty would have wanted it that way.

LEFTY'S FRIEND: Oh! Sure, in that case let's really fuck her up and steal all her shit.

From everything I read here, about Heber in the old days ... I seriously doubt that he wanted to wind up a compulsively lying sack of shit PR flog, trying to cover for very bad stuff that Cof$ would have done far better to just come clean on and just take their lumps and move on. Those who knew him way back when seem to think he was a good fellow and not a sociopath. He probably had good intentions all along, but was constantly subject to DM mindphugging.

Now that he is old and rotting in the int base hole, we should do what we can to get him out, if for no other reason than the potential damage he can do and embarassment he can cause those bastards. We are supposed to be better than Cof$, it only makes sense to be more charitable and be ready to forgive Heber the man if not his acts while part of the Cof$ machine. He is no Charlie Manson and does not deserve to rot in what is essentially a prison until he drops dead.

Pete

[HelluvaHoax!]

Yes, it is strange but I do feel heartbreakingly sorry for him at this moment, no-one should be treated this way no matter what age they are, but be assured my real concern is for the children that are trapped within this cult who are being 'parented' by scientologists and indoctrinated into becoming the next generation of culties.

:yes:

Yeah, there is a certain pathos to a dispirited old man being being psychologically whipped into servitude.

But before I get a bad case of the Heeber Jeebies about it, I can't help but realize that Heeber spent the majority of his life building that very same prison system that he now finds himself an inmate of.

And he did it with great certainty, zeal and joy.

When I re-watch videos of Heber in action, I see a heartless big game hunter. Now I see a big game hunter who got sloppy and carelessly got caught in his own bear trap.


http://www.rosebizinc.com/gpblog/uploaded_images/bearTRAP-746474.gif

It might sound cruel, but the universe sometimes has a way of balancing things out...and I don't mean Karma.

Perhaps....just perhaps the pain that Heber is going thru will actually spark a moment of concussive realizations and he will LEAVE and BLOW THE WHISTLE with all his might.

What if the cruel trap he is in actually is the only thing that forces him to look?

Think of all the other major Execs that blew and the crescendo of cruelty and injustice that finally brought things to a full boil....

[I told you I was trouble]

Originally posted by HH
Snipped ...


Perhaps....just perhaps the pain that Heber is going thru will actually spark a moment of concussive realizations and he will LEAVE and BLOW THE WHISTLE with all his might.

If I thought he could leave I would totally agree with all you say, but I am not at all sure that he can.

:)

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

For what it is worth, I mostly know Heber from the videos I have seen in recent years of him in masterfully misdirecting, attacking critics and pushing the gamut of scn PR.

When I first met him in person in May 1974 he was in standing with his back to the wall in the "lobby" of CCLA. Nicely attired in a dress suit and brandishing an acoustic guitar he started to speak to me as I was passing by him. I stopped and for the next 10 to 15 minutes listened to him talk at me and I was almost completely unable to track with his rambling verbiage. I cannot remember what he was talking about but as I politely ended the "conversation' and walked away I began to wonder who this psychotic person was and if perhaps he shouldn't be shown the door.

It was only years later seeing him on TV that I realized who it was that I had met that mysterious day in CCLA.

On reflection, I think he is the only person in my life that I have not been able to understand what it was about that he was talking that day.

[Caliwog]

Heber also ended up shouting incoherently on some radio talk show, so much that the host had to cut off his microphone and so he ran over into another room and started shouting into somebody else's mike.

A classic! You can listen to that show here:

http://www.xenutv.com/radio/kfi-91.htm

That show was my first impression of Heber - a bully and a lousy PR guy. It's difficult to reconcile the favorable memories so many people have of him with the a/h that appears on TV and radio. But then again, there are people who truly feel that DM and/or LRH were great men. So I guess you have to consider the source. I'm sure Heber was very lovely, but I imagine if you told him you thought LRH was a fraud, you wouldn't see the happy guitar-playing side of him.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

[HelluvaHoax!]

If I thought he could leave I would totally agree with all you say, but I am not at all sure that he can.
:)

If it's any consolation, remember that Heber is not a victim of Scientology.

He IS Scientology.

Scientology's policy is to shoot itself in the foot.

Heber is following policy by being jailed in the jail that he was instrumental in building.

Why do I not feel sorry for a major human trafficker getting *caught in traffic*?

[lkwdblds]

From everything I read here, about Heber in the old days ... I seriously doubt that he wanted to wind up a compulsively lying sack of shit PR flog, trying to cover for very bad stuff that Cof$ would have done far better to just come clean on and just take their lumps and move on. Those who knew him way back when seem to think he was a good fellow and not a sociopath. He probably had good intentions all along, but was constantly subject to DM mindphugging.

Now that he is old and rotting in the int base hole, we should do what we can to get him out, if for no other reason than the potential damage he can do and embarassment he can cause those bastards. We are supposed to be better than Cof$, it only makes sense to be more charitable and be ready to forgive Heber the man if not his acts while part of the Cof$ machine. He is no Charlie Manson and does not deserve to rot in what is essentially a prison until he drops dead.

Pete

Nicely put Pete! I feel you make a lot of sense. One thing I would like to do is to be able to talk to Heber or write to him and get him to read ESMB and other boards with people who have been hurt by C of S and confront what he has done by aiding C of S.

If he were to die at Gold Base without ever being allowed out, he would die believing he had dedicated his life to a worthy cause. That is no good for him or for society. He should be made to confront how blind he was in furthering DM's programs and he should be made aware of the harm his actions have caused to others. Like Pete says, we should be better than C of S. Heber needs to wake up to the fact that he has been backing the wrong horse in the race.

Back in 1970 when people asked him why he quit show business and joined staff. he would answer that after a particularly powerful auditing session he had a vision of Earth being blown up in a nuclear conflict between the USA and USSR. He told us he realized it was his duty to become a committed staff member and help head off a nuclear conflict and then help Earth form a new society where wisdom and the arts could flourish. That was his initial goal. He should be made to confront that he long ago dropped that goal and instead devoted his life to denying free speech, breaking up families, promoting Sea Org abortions and so forth. Any human being deserves a right to confront his crimes and try and make restitution before he dies.
Lakey

[Nicole]

Improve me if I'm wrong. Heber Jentzsh was the President of the Church
Scientology International, know he is gone lost in in the swamp of the Scientology - Organization.

Like other I think he can't leave, he knows to much.

I think I feel sorry for him, Even if he knew lots in the past and he has done much wrong. It is dificult to decide if he is offender or victim. I think he was a offender but now he is a victim.

If he could be able to run away and he speaks out. He needs like other a chance.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Now that he is old and rotting in the int base hole, we should do what we can to get him out, if for no other reason than the potential damage he can do and embarassment he can cause those bastards.


Sounds absolutely YUMMY! I would take 2 helpings of that dessert!

But, I have pretty strong suspicion that if he were "out" he would start strumming his acoustic guitar over at Marty's Music Shack.

And singing odes to L. Ron Hubbard...

And folk songs like...


IF I HAD A HAMMER

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this Independent Bridge
I'd hammer out of Danger
I'd hammer out Incorrect Technology per KSW
I'd hammer out ARC between my Comrades and my Commodore
All over this Independent Bridge

[Caliwog]

He should be made to confront how blind he was in furthering DM's programs and he should be made aware of the harm his actions have caused to others.

In an ideal world, yes - but how do you do that? You have to think like a Scientologist. Assuming Heber still believes, that means he thinks that by spreading the word of LRH, he is doing good. One thing life has taught me is that it's almost impossible to make anyone do anything. Read or listen to interviews of people who have truly left Scientology - not just the Church - behind. People like Tory/Magoo, Jason Beghe, Larry Anderson. They didn't leave because someone made them leave; they left because they came to their own conclusions.

I think HelluvaHoax is 100% right - if Heber left the Church today, he wouldn't be out of Scientology, he'd be with Marty and the Independents, still believing that LRH was the Way, the Truth and the Light.

The way I see it, a person isn't truly out of Scientology until they have the cognition that the whole of Scientology is a fraud designed for the sole purpose of making money, and that LRH is the con man behind it.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

[GoNuclear]

IF I HAD A HAMMER

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this Independent Bridge
I'd hammer out of Danger
I'd hammer out Incorrect Technology per KSW
I'd hammer out ARC between my Comrades and my Commodore
All over this Independent Bridge

Good one, HH! Nice to see I'm not the only parody artist on here. I was thinking about a Heber song parody, but hesitated. Was going to do "What Ever Became of Heber?" to the tune of "What Ever Became of Hubert?" which was an original satire song done in the 60's about Hubert Humphrey, the LBJ vice president and Democrat presidential nominee, running against Nixon in 1968. Trouble is, as perfect as that song would be for a Heber parody, very few people ever heard that tune, done by Tom Leher in the mid sixties. But to use that old "If I Had A Hammer" ... stroke of genius. Was thinking about using that for a parody of the Supreme Court. Perhaps I should start thinking in terms of Woody Guthrie tunes myself.

Pete

[I told you I was trouble]

In an ideal world, yes - but how do you do that? You have to think like a Scientologist. Assuming Heber still believes, that means he thinks that by spreading the word of LRH, he is doing good. One thing life has taught me is that it's almost impossible to make anyone do anything. Read or listen to interviews of people who have truly left Scientology - not just the Church - behind. People like Tory/Magoo, Jason Beghe, Larry Anderson. They didn't leave because someone made them leave; they left because they came to their own conclusions.

I think HelluvaHoax is 100% right - if Heber left the Church today, he wouldn't be out of Scientology, he'd be with Marty and the Independents, still believing that LRH was the Way, the Truth and the Light.

The way I see it, a person isn't truly out of Scientology until they have the cognition that the whole of Scientology is a fraud designed for the sole purpose of making money, and that LRH is the con man behind it.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

Good post.

I often think that a lot of these people absolutely DO know that it is all a fraud but they are so mentally trapped (or think they are) that it is just easier to stay in ... and keep what remains of their dignity intact rather than lose every last shred of it.

They pull the wool over their own eyes on a daily basis because then they will never have to justify themselves to the people they wronged while wearing their 'hats' or to endure looking in the mirror for the rest of their lives and feeling a wee bit silly.

:nervous:

Simplistic? Yep ... but as anyone who has been on staff knows, the longer you are there the harder it becomes to walk out (unless they are sure of family waiting for them or are financially viable).

I would imagine that the older you get the easier it is to just accept that there is another option, escape without penalty ... otherwise known as death.

[lionheart]

Yeah, there is a certain pathos to a dispirited old man being being psychologically whipped into servitude.

But before I get a bad case of the Heeber Jeebies about it, I can't help but realize that Heeber spent the majority of his life building that very same prison system that he now finds himself an inmate of.

And he did it with great certainty, zeal and joy.

When I re-watch videos of Heber in action, I see a heartless big game hunter. Now I see a big game hunter who got sloppy and carelessly got caught in his own bear trap.

<snip>

It might sound cruel, but the universe sometimes has a way of balancing things out...and I don't mean Karma.

Perhaps....just perhaps the pain that Heber is going thru will actually spark a moment of concussive realizations and he will LEAVE and BLOW THE WHISTLE with all his might.

What if the cruel trap he is in actually is the only thing that forces him to look?

Think of all the other major Execs that blew and the crescendo of cruelty and injustice that finally brought things to a full boil....


A classic! You can listen to that show here:

http://www.xenutv.com/radio/kfi-91.htm

That show was my first impression of Heber - a bully and a lousy PR guy. It's difficult to reconcile the favorable memories so many people have of him with the a/h that appears on TV and radio. But then again, there are people who truly feel that DM and/or LRH were great men. So I guess you have to consider the source. I'm sure Heber was very lovely, but I imagine if you told him you thought LRH was a fraud, you wouldn't see the happy guitar-playing side of him.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com


Improve me if I'm wrong. Heber Jentzsh was the President of the Church
Scientology International, know he is gone lost in in the swamp of the Scientology - Organization.

Like other I think he can't leave, he knows to much.

I think I feel sorry for him, Even if he knew lots in the past and he has done much wrong. It is dificult to decide if he is offender or victim. I think he was a offender but now he is a victim.

If he could be able to run away and he speaks out. He needs like other a chance.

Some great posts on this thread.

One of the hardest things to reconcile is the effect Scn has upon people who become scientologists.

It was designed by LRH to convert people's noblest aspects to his own ends.

Sometimes this leaves us exes with a sort of cognitive dissonance about long-time scientologists. (incongruous beliefs and attitude held simultaneously)

"Heber was an idealist", "Heber was a ruthless schmuck". We end up believing both or trying to reconcile these irreconcilable aspects of a person from our experience of them.

Same with Marty, same with Mike, same with many prominent exes.

Recently an inactive Ex contacted me saying how terrible he felt about all the dreadful things he did while a senior exec.

The truth is LRH's programming was designed to turn people into ruthless slaves. Keeping Scientology Working even states this as Ron's goal.

In order to "survive" as a scientologist one had to become more and more ruthless, the longer one stayed in. It is designed that way by Ron.

It is a process he was running on us. And is still running on present day scientologists.

Sometimes the conflict between our original nobler characteristics and our base ones, that have been stimulated by Ron's mind-bend, builds up and like a pressure cooker it blows and the individual "blows". Sometimes the dissonance paralyzes an individual and the person succumbs and they sit in some RPF slave camp somewhere hoping one day to reconcile these conflicts of personality. Sometimes the base character takes over the person, as per LRH's intention, and they stay on post degrading their fellow beings. Until the next cognitive dissonance crisis.

This was the young Heber's fate. This was all our fates. A great lesson.

"I know it's hard to see these things, as through a dark glass fading
When we're standing face to face the truth won't need explaining." St Paul

[Dulloldfart]

[Scientology] was designed by LRH to convert people's noblest aspects to his own ends.

Well said.

Paul

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

They pull the wool over their own eyes on a daily basis because then they will never have to justify themselves to the people they wronged while wearing their 'hats' or to endure looking in the mirror for the rest of their lives and feeling a wee bit silly.

:nervous:

I would imagine that the older you get the easier it is to just accept that there is another option, escape without penalty ... otherwise known as death.

I agree Trouble.

When I finally got over the fact that we were not going to take over the world for LRH any time soon (realized about 1995), I STILL stayed at it, banging away for another 12 years on and off of SOLO NOTS at the exxpense of a couple hundred grand, thinking perhaps it would take 1,000 years or something to Clear the planet.

Besides, if you die in the middle of the "Scientology process", leaveraging yourself, your house and your business to the max, leaving your creditors (usually including some friends) and the IRS high and dry - it's still the greatest good, right? :no:

I was a reg. That's how regges think. That's how they HAVE to think to be successful at their horrible function. I can't imagine the justifications Heber built up for himself over the years to do what he did! :omg:

I can't even imagine what would happen if I was on the cans again at the Sandcastle and a Cl 9 auditor asked me if there was a justification!

It would probably take a team of paramedics to extract me after I bellowed and shook and tore the entire building apart with my bare hands:angry:

[byte301]

While I was in the SO at AOLA Heber came and gave the staff a little talk. He was having a great time and totally in his element.

He told us a story about JT stopping and giving some girl a touch assist at a car accident. She was unconcious and woke while JT was giving the assist and went gaga, yada yada. The whole thing ended up being about how powerful JT thought touch assists were not realizing that it was because it was HIM giving the assist that freaked the girl out.

This, I found out later, was at the time JT had been handled and gotten back on lines. Heber made it a point to tell us everything was fine with JT.

This, I also found out MUCH later, was during the time his wife, Yvonne, was at Flag... dying.

[Lurker5]

I don't get it. Heber was one of the more vocal & apparent monsters of Scientology when he was in power - and always vocalizing his disgust for the Cult Awareness Network - and all people associated with it, including wholesale participation in a campaign to slander its national director, Cynthia Kisser.

Now, that he's elderly... we should all feel sorry for him. Strange.

Well, the big IF here is - IF he gets out, and comes clean, sees the error of his ways, scn ways, as someone has said, and TELLS ALL, then we can all benefit, including him - and all those left behind too. This we WANT.

In the mean time, he is old, and (a) brainwashed (SOB, by most accounts) - and quite possibly physically abused. :violent: This is legal fodder, that can be used - It is a crime to abuse anyone - especially the old (at least here).

If you have had old parents, you know how helpless they can get, everything seems to go, and those vital, in-charge adults of your youth are gone. The memory goes, cognition goes, physical ability and dexterity goes. Intelligence goes too (oh crap I hate getting old).

He's been there for years. Isn't that punishment enough? Or did he kill someone? Does he deserve the death sentence? That is what scn is, in the 'hole'. Or was he (is he still ?) just brainwahsed SOB doing his 'job' for scn - like so many of you did.

I think the higher up one goes, the more horrid the personal actions and behavior in the name of the co$. You KNOW how it is in there . . . . Did he have a choice as to - whether - and how - to do his job - or not . . ?

I can forgive anyone who comes out and owns up, and talks. That said, some actions are legal crimes, and in that case, I qualify my forgiveness. Fess up, turn self in, talk LOUDLY about scn, and do the time for the crime. Make amends. Redemption is not easy - for any of us, but it is the only way out.

We are responsible for our actions and behavior. Even (us) towards an asshole (like him).

Has anyone had parents turn into horrid, nasty, bratty children - at times? Old people get cranky, and reallly, they don't care anymore what anyone thinks, and many inhibitions, social graces, ettiquette, and kindnesses - go in the toilet. :omg: :pullhair:

Remember the good times - guard your heart (against the pain of nastiness from those you love and hope love you, though it is hard to tell that at times, those times) - understand what has happened. Then go pound a bag :punch::storm::boxing:

[Caliwog]

Did he have a choice as to - whether - and how - to do his job - or not . . ?

I think you answered this one:


We are responsible for our actions and behavior.

Everyone has choices. Even if someone holds a gun to your head and says "Drive or I'm going to shoot you," you have a choice. Not all choices are appealing.

When Heber was on that radio program, doing everything he could to ensure the other guests were not being heard or that the subject of body thetans did not come up, he thought he was doing the right thing. He was blocking entheta and preventing people from hearing data that could damage their case gain.

Was he *actually* doing the right thing? Of course not. But he believed that he was, because he had substituted LRH's moral code for society's.

Even the folks who flew the planes into the Twin Towers thought they were the good guys.

So do we feel sorry for Heber? Well, that depends on what he does. If Heber comes out and says "I did all these horrible things in the name of LRH and they were wrong and I'm ashamed of myself," like Aaron Saxton did, then yes. If Heber comes out and joins Marty's group, then no, I for one will feel no sympathy, because from everything I have read, they still subscribe to LRH's moral code.


He's been there for years. Isn't that punishment enough?

Again, the choices at this point are not good. Consider what the SO normally does to old people who cannot produce and are "out-exchange" (ie have nothing to give Scientology in return for the care they provide). They offload them. LRH does not say "You should be rewarded in your golden years." LRH taught that we are trillions of years old and if you slow down for the last 20 or so you are in this body, well, tough titties. Go drop the body and get a new one and get your ass to work. You want time off, pick up a dog or a horse body and take a break for 10 or 15 years. (LRH actually suggested that intelligent animals are great Thetans taking a break.) I know Heber's conditions are not good, but what awaits him if he's kicked out? His son will disconnect from him. Maybe Karen will take care of him. I hate to say it, but Heber may have the closest thing to old-age security that the Sea Org offers.


Or did he kill someone?

In my opinion, Scientology kills people, because they encourage people to pursue LRH's bullshit pseudo-science non-cures in place of real medical or psychiatric care. Lisa McPherson is the *perfect* case in point, and there are plenty of anecdotes about Scientologists who got cancer or had heart conditions and used auditing instead of a doctor.

Heber was a spokesperson. He promoted the Church. So yes, indirectly, Heber helped kill people.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

I was a TOTAL newbie on staff - 79 or 80. We were herded into Lebanon Hall late at night. Heber gave a briefing to the assembled staff about how the case on the 9 or 11 guys from Snow White was going.

His big announcement (to minimize the overt) was that all the FBI had on us was that we took some copy paper! Roaring cheers all around :happydance:. I was thinking - :thumbsup:.

What a moron I was!

Times such as those were the times when Heber was at his best, being the world's greatest cheerleader (while mixing into his repertoire lots of lies, deceits and deceptions).

He came up to me years later in the NOTS lounge at AOLA and tried really hard (about 2 hours) to convince me to drop my post and join a new study line-up to become an official spokesperson for the Church.

It was just about at the tail end of the period of time when it could even be considered that a non-SO person could get close to the inner-inner circle. He seemed to have a slightly "free-willed", "somewhat independently operating" "President's Office" or something and he was getting it manned up.

He said my transfer was basically a done deal that I should do it - the agreement in management was all lined-up, the post transfer CSW just a formality - I could start on my full-time PR training the next morning at 9:00am!:whistling:

Happily for my seniors (and unhappily for many, many public Scientologists), I decided to stay on my own post and wound up becoming a big-time reg for another 12-15 years.:sorry:

There’s never a happy ending to a Scientology story. Except one! Getting OUT!!!!!
:dancer:

[Veda]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Heber, but did hear a recording of a briefing that he did around that same time (1980ish). In his attempt to gloss over the ongoing investigations into Scientology's criminality, he emphasized, multiple times, that all that really mattered was "getting T and A." Each time, muffled laughter could be heard as some apparently could not help themselves, and couldn't keep themselves from laughing.

Of course, he meant to say TA, for TA motion, which is an e-meter reaction highly valued by Scientologists. Instead he said T and A, which is short for Tit and Ass.

Heber was regarded by the Scientology "hierarchy" as "the fifth wheel," and I've no reason to believe that Marty Rathbun thinks of him as anything more than an exploitable dufus.

[Challenge]

I never had the pleasure of meeting Heber, but did hear a recording of a briefing that he did around that same time (1980ish). In his attempt to gloss over the ongoing investigations into Scientology's criminality, he emphasized, multiple times, that all that really mattered was "getting T and A." Each time, muffled laughter could be heard as some apparently could not help themselves, and couldn't keep themselves from laughing.

Of course, he meant to say TA, for TA motion, which is an e-meter reaction highly valued by Scientologists. Instead he said T and A, which is short for Tit and Ass.

Heber was regarded by the Scientology "hierarchy" as "the fifth wheel," and I've no reason to believe that Marty Rathbun thinks of him as anything more than an exploitable dufus.


" exploitable dufus" is good. I think of him as a Clown.
I do believe that, now, Heber is in the sad old state of Dementia.
He can never come "out", even if he wants to, which there's no reason to think that he does want "out". There is no "out" for Heber. Do I feel sorry for him? No.
The last time I saw heber was in the LA courthouse during the Wollersheim/Mayo trial. Heber saw me in the hallway, grabbed me by my arm and was manhandling me away from the trial. I screamed for Security and they were right there and told Heber to take his hands off me. Heber told them that I was a 'goddamned suppressive". I told them that I was a Scientologist, and I didn't know what Heber was. ( At that time, I believed that Scientology had been ripped off by RTC. I wrote a paper " The Great Tech Robbery" which was posted to ARS around 1996).
Adios, Heber. Whatever you get is whatever you deserve.

Challenge

[Dulloldfart]

. . . he emphasized, multiple times, that all that really mattered was "getting T and A." Each time, muffled laughter could be heard as some apparently could not help themselves, and couldn't keep themselves from laughing.

That is hilarious. He must have noticed the reaction, and wondered why what he said was so funny.

Paul

[Zinjifar]

Just to give some 'visio' and 'mass' to this thread; it's a repeat, but a good one.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Zinjifar/heberhoden.png

While we're 'saving Heber', how bout Ken Hoden too?

Zinj

[Dulloldfart]

So what are they laughing at? The photographer on his/her knees in front of them (to get the sign into the shot) and getting tangled up in the newspaper-dispensing boxes there in the way? The fake religious front that they were both obviously very well aware of?

Is this an in-house photo, Zinj, or an outside media one?

Paul

[Zinjifar]

So what are they laughing at? The photographer on his/her knees in front of them (to get the sign into the shot) and getting tangled up in the newspaper-dispensing boxes there in the way? The fake religious front that they were both obviously very well aware of?

Is this an in-house photo, Zinj, or an outside media one?

Paul

I don't know :)

To tell you the truth, I don't even remember where I got it. As 'in house' as it looks, it's not unlikely that it's from a LA Times etc. type story.

Zinj

[Wisened One]

So what are they laughing at?
Paul

Maybe they're laughing 'cuz they got to take a break from scrubbing toilets with toothbrushes, dress spiffy and look happy for the Press? :confused2:

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

I'm pretty sure the photo was just before or at least early LA Crusade days. Where IS Ken by the way?

[HelluvaHoax!]

His big announcement (to minimize the overt) was that all the FBI had on us was that we took some copy paper! Roaring cheers all around :happydance:. I was thinking - :thumbsup:.

Love the utter stupidity of it.

But love, even more, that good Scientologists will jump to their feet and burst into VVGI applauding ovations on cue.....no matter WHAT they are told.


OTHER OBNOXIOUS OVATIONS FOR OBVIOUS OVERTS:


News: "Ooops, your guru is dead!"
Truth that must be hidden at any cost: "Ron was not an OT, sucker! You're fucked!"
The Big Lie: "Ron is like totally more OT than you ever dreamed. You're like sooooo saved!"
Justification: "You're stupid to think that Ron would not want to die."
How to Sell It to Scientologists: "Only loser, interiorized, downtone beings who need to buy tons of repair auditing would be upset that Ron is exterior and winning."

News: "Ooops, your COB beats the shit out of people"
Truth that must be hidden at any cost: "The highest level of OT Scientology culture is the same as the lowest level of criminal wog culture."
The Big Lie: "Nobody was beaten because stats don't lie! Wives report highest-ever number of Ideal Body Square Inches while COB reports highest-ever number of Ideal Org Square Feet.
Justification: "Dave wasn't there. And if he was there he didn't know about the 100 reported beatings. And if he did know, he handled it, obviously, because you don't see anyone being beaten right now do you?"
How to Sell It to Scientologists: "If you have critical thoughts about COB it's because he has done so much for you that your exchange is out and you really need to see the Reg to handle that. So, anyone who feels critical, please stand now so we can get your name and help flow power to you."

[Zinjifar]

I'm pretty sure the photo was just before or at least early LA Crusade days. Where IS Ken by the way?

Kein Hoden, former 'master' of Int Base is now in the SP Hall with Heber apparently.

Zinj

[secretiveoldfag]

This is the Heber, yes?

Reverend Heber C. Jentzsch, President of the Church of Scientology International and a member of Sheriff Baca’s Executive Advisory Clergy Council, gave the invocation by reciting the Scientology Prayer for Total Freedom. Promoting the “united” theme, he also showed the award-winning human rights music video “United,” produced by Los Angeles-based Youth for Human Rights International.

Posted 5 July 2010.
http://lifestyletom.com/path/rao10925686370ros/roin59012331169

[AnonKat]

Just to give some 'visio' and 'mass' to this thread; it's a repeat, but a good one.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Zinjifar/heberhoden.png

While we're 'saving Heber', how bout Ken Hoden too?

Zinj

FREE SANTA HEBER !!!!

[rhill]

Is this an in-house photo, Zinj, or an outside media one?

Paul

I've seen this one used for an thorough article (I thought American Lawyer at first). I will look into it.

Edit1: There is this article (http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=3003), dated April 1986, here is the PDF (BIG: 2.8MB), which has a quite similar picture on the frontpage: http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/thecompiler-1986-22.pdf. I just can't remember where I saw the above picture, I think I might have seen it is somewhere on lermanet.com.

Edit2: Ha! ... http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/la-weekly/laweekly-inside-scientology.htm

[Nicole]

Kein Hoden
Zinj

Zinj, you knew what you wrote, or?

I am sorry, but I read the name under the first picture and I had to :giggle:

[Zinjifar]

Zinj, you knew what you wrote, or?

I am sorry, but I read the name under the first picture and I had to :giggle:

Kenny (Kein :)) is a favorite among critics, although, he's fallen pretty far from I/C of Gold Base to the SP Hall.

Zinj

[Smurf]

So what are they laughing at? The photographer on his/her knees in front of them (to get the sign into the shot) and getting tangled up in the newspaper-dispensing boxes there in the way? The fake religious front that they were both obviously very well aware of?

Is this an in-house photo, Zinj, or an outside media one?

It appeared with a 1986 Los Angeles Times article following lawsuits filed against the church. I believe it was this one. There were several days of articles attributed to the event.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-24/local/me-31534_1_damage-award

[AnonLover]

This is the Heber, yes?

Reverend Heber C. Jentzsch, President of the Church of Scientology International and a member of Sheriff Baca’s Executive Advisory Clergy Council, gave the invocation by reciting the Scientology Prayer for Total Freedom. Promoting the “united” theme, he also showed the award-winning human rights music video “United,” produced by Los Angeles-based Youth for Human Rights International.

Posted 5 July 2010.
http://lifestyletom.com/path/rao10925686370ros/roin59012331169

Posted 5 July 2010 :omg: well what do you know, first a prearranged visit with his son, and now they trotted the old goat for a public appearance.

[AnonKat]

Posted 5 July 2010 :omg: well what do you know, first a prearranged visit with his son, and now they trotted the old goat for a public appearance.

Bacca asked questions after he was talked to ?

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Posted 5 July 2010 :omg: well what do you know, first a prearranged visit with his son, and now they trotted the old goat for a public appearance.



The array of officials and dignitaries and religious leaders attending,
included State Assemblyman Mark Ridley Thomas;
State Controller Steve Westly;
former Governor and now Mayor of Oakland Jerry Brown;


Jerry Brown hasn't been Mayor of Oakland since 2006

[Kha Khan]

Jerry Brown hasn't been Mayor of Oakland since 2006Jerry Brown is the Attorney General of California (http://www.ag.ca.gov/).

/

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Jerry Brown is the Attorney General of California (http://www.ag.ca.gov/).

/

The point I was making is the cult put out a press release on 5 July 2010 of an event that took place no later than 2006

[Kha Khan]

The point I was making is the cult put out a press release on 5 July 2010 of an event that took place no later than 2006Yes, I agree with your point. I was just reinforcing it a bit.

/

[Smurf]

Jerry Brown hasn't been Mayor of Oakland since 2006

The article was written by the notorious PR hag Edie Rueveni who has a history of writing press releases with fictitious information. I could say more but I was threatened once by her son for insulting mama.

She also refers to lying con artist-Baptist minister-Scientologist Alfreddie Johnson as a Lynwood Councilman. Johnson was booted from the council in 2007 after a successful recall. Seems he can't shy away from scandal.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=275258&postcount=7

http://www.smartvoter.org/2007/09/25/ca/la/race/3/

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/2c96d6a08b6f9eab

http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/r/rev.-alfreddie-johnson.html

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

A little harsh criticism on Alfreddie Smurf!

We showed Alfreddie A LOT of love in the early days to turn him into a Scientologist. He was duped just like the rest of us and was just trying to help people like the rest of us.

Frank Zurn of ABLE was the one who really got Alfreddie going. Frank gave a presentation to ministers in South Central LA (after the riots) and told them that if the Bible was the word of God, then the Bible IS God. So if you're illiterate and can't read the Bible, then you can never truly know God. Alfreddie was ELECTRIFIED with Frank’s logic and it all eventually turned into the “Literacy Crusade” and got tons of press for Scientology. (P.S. Frank's wife Lauri Zurn is in the hole at Int and he hasn't seen her in almost 3 years - while he still slaves away at ABLE INT selling ACC Lecture packages to Scientologists - wtf!!).

At first, a pretty good effort was made by many people early on volunteering to go down the South Central Los Angeles and tutor people on English (of course study tech was there too, but when you're just trying to learn to read, there's not too much damage there.).

Naturally (for Scientology), the PR became the product - and besides that, when you're busting your ass on staff or as a public trying to get up the Bridge, the volunteer thing can only go so far - so there was a dwindling of actual doingness.

Compare this to the following: I found out recently that a small Episcopal Church in my town runs one of the largest food pantries for destitute and homeless people in my state. THOUSANDS of meals per week. Funding comes from the parishioners. The work is performed by volunteer parishioners. Zero press, Zero promo, Zero attention. The only people outside the parish that know about it are the ones receiving the FREELY GIVEN help. And it’s been going on for 30 YEARS.

I recently had dinner with friends still in (and believing I'm still in, but I'm just getting a little cranky and probably need to go to Flag for a "handling") and I told them this story. It just didn't register to them at all - the fact that you would spend you time giving food to degraded beings for no exchange and not even getting any good press made no sense to them at all.

This is just a small example of the EXTREMELY dangerous attitudes that one adopts being part of Scientology. It really breaks my heart.

[Smurf]

A little harsh criticism on Alfreddie Smurf!

We showed Alfreddie A LOT of love in the early days to turn him into a Scientologist. He was duped just like the rest of us and was just trying to help people like the rest of us.

The facts speak for themselves. The truth can be painful. Trust me, I know this from personal experience when I finally took personal responsibility for the many crimes I committed on behalf of the church and OSA.

[GoNuclear]

Love the utter stupidity of it.

But love, even more, that good Scientologists will jump to their feet and burst into VVGI applauding ovations on cue.....no matter WHAT they are told.


OTHER OBNOXIOUS OVATIONS FOR OBVIOUS OVERTS:


News: "Ooops, your guru is dead!"
Truth that must be hidden at any cost: "Ron was not an OT, sucker! You're fucked!"
The Big Lie: "Ron is like totally more OT than you ever dreamed. You're like sooooo saved!"
Justification: "You're stupid to think that Ron would not want to die."
How to Sell It to Scientologists: "Only loser, interiorized, downtone beings who need to buy tons of repair auditing would be upset that Ron is exterior and winning."

News: "Ooops, your COB beats the shit out of people"
Truth that must be hidden at any cost: "The highest level of OT Scientology culture is the same as the lowest level of criminal wog culture."
The Big Lie: "Nobody was beaten because stats don't lie! Wives report highest-ever number of Ideal Body Square Inches while COB reports highest-ever number of Ideal Org Square Feet.
Justification: "Dave wasn't there. And if he was there he didn't know about the 100 reported beatings. And if he did know, he handled it, obviously, because you don't see anyone being beaten right now do you?"
How to Sell It to Scientologists: "If you have critical thoughts about COB it's because he has done so much for you that your exchange is out and you really need to see the Reg to handle that. So, anyone who feels critical, please stand now so we can get your name and help flow power to you."


HH, only one point to differ with you on ... it isn't the "big lie", it is the Scientological TRUTH. In Scientology, truth benefits the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, and need not be confined to any WOG definition, with very solidly mocked up considerations regarding MEST and/or wrongfully held in place mental image pictures that only enturbulate, mental image pictures tightly bound up in WOG considerations about "what actually happened" which is really just so-much entheta.

Your description of Scientological truth as the "big lie" is suspect, most certainly a red flag. Pehaps you are PTS or have overts. You should come in for a sec-check. There might just be a non enturbulation order out on you already.


Pete

[Challenge]

[QUOTE=This is NOT OK !!!!;443783]A little harsh criticism on Alfreddie Smurf!

We showed Alfreddie A LOT of love in the early days to turn him into a Scientologist. He was duped just like the rest of us and was just trying to help people like the rest of us.

Frank Zurn of ABLE was the one who really got Alfreddie going. Frank gave a presentation to ministers in South Central LA (after the riots) and told them that if the Bible was the word of God, then the Bible IS God. So if you're illiterate and can't read the Bible, then you can never truly know God. Alfreddie was ELECTRIFIED with Frank’s logic and it all eventually turned into the “Literacy Crusade” and got tons of press for Scientology. (P.S. Frank's wife Lauri Zurn is in the hole at Int and he hasn't seen her in almost 3 years - while he still slaves away at ABLE INT selling ACC Lecture packages to

Alfreddie was being paid .
It's distressing to see that Frank & Lauri Zurn are still in there.

[Gus]

Just to give some 'visio' and 'mass' to this thread; it's a repeat, but a good one.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Zinjifar/heberhoden.png

While we're 'saving Heber', how bout Ken Hoden too?

Zinj


I remember ol' Ken Hoden... I recognized him immediately. First time I saw him was in Portland, OR. He was the MC of a "lock the doors" fundraiser. That's where they lock the doors to the room and they don't let anyone leave until the target is met. It was a real hoot :bigcry:

I think we all finally got out of there around 1am.

Interesting to see he went from big time money-raiser to inmate at the hole.

Gus

[SweetnessandLight]

Where IS Ken Hoden at this point in time??? Still in the Hole at INT? :confused2: