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me myself & i
18th September 2010, 06:40 PM
Ok, here's the inside scoop on forgiveness: It's an act of Self-betrayal to deny.

Setting personal persuasions aside (of the philsophical garden variety) the act of forgiving another is a consequence of the Realization of the Self. No joke. No kidding. It's the dog shit reality of spiritual being.

To 'forgive' can been seen as 'to give a reason for'. Which is to say, to understand. In its absence stands only sleep and dream. Spiritually speaking.

The homo-sapien species itself is a collective being (individually expressed) of 100% prior-conditioning. Protests notwithstanding. The good and the bad of each and all are merely effects of an earlier cause.

Lastly, for the moment, to forgive is not akin to deny the atrocities of that which is forgiven. It is an act that exists on a level of being that exists above atrocity itself.

And therein lies its power.

mm&i

Zinjifar
18th September 2010, 07:02 PM
As far as I can tell, neither Marty nor Mike think they have anything they need my forgiveness for. Neither ever slapped me around or even yelled at me. I don't need Marty's 'processing' to help me 'recover' from his overts against me. They don't *want* my forgiveness, since they don't think they have any need.

And, personally speaking, I don't need to 'forgive' Scientology at all. As much as it's damaged and harmed other people, as much as I'm sure it *wanted* to harm me, it was unsuccessful.

And, I'm not interested in 'forgiving' Scientology as a whole for what it's done. Scientology has no redeeming social value; I don't want it rehabilitated. I want it exposed, prosecuted and dissolved. The books and tapes and people holding cans and pretending they're God can continue. And, as long as the Scientology Organization is *gone*, I'll put up with the creepiness factor of people still calling themselves 'Scientologists', just like I can put up with people calling themselves Nazis.

No 'forgiveness' necessary or available.

Zinj

AnonKat
18th September 2010, 07:12 PM
One word: Neuroplasticity :D



As far as I can tell, neither Marty nor Mike think they have anything they need my forgiveness for. Neither ever slapped me around or even yelled at me. I don't need Marty's 'processing' to help me 'recover' from his overts against me. They don't *want* my forgiveness, since they don't think they have any need.

And, personally speaking, I don't need to 'forgive' Scientology at all. As much as it's damaged and harmed other people, as much as I'm sure it *wanted* to harm me, it was unsuccessful.

And, I'm not interested in 'forgiving' Scientology as a whole for what it's done. Scientology has no redeeming social value; I don't want it rehabilitated. I want it exposed, prosecuted and dissolved. The books and tapes and people holding cans and pretending they're God can continue. And, as long as the Scientology Organization is *gone*, I'll put up with the creepiness factor of people still calling themselves 'Scientologists', just like I can put up with people calling themselves Nazis.

No 'forgiveness' necessary or available.

Zinj

GreyWolf
18th September 2010, 07:25 PM
I probably do not have to forgive Scientology because it is an organization and not a living being. I do have to forgive individual scientologists because they are human and because I must do this for my own spiritual growth. I must show a love and compassion that they cannot. It is part of the proccess.

Love

Bob

The Great Zorg
18th September 2010, 09:00 PM
I have nothing against the M.R.'s. As far as I know they have done nothing to me. :confused2:

Hubbard I guess I can forgive for being such a monstrous con-artist, liar and asshole. This will take some time. :grouch:

I cannot as yet forgive the current scientology matrix as they are still continuing to commit hate crimes and abuse. They are still enslaving anyone so unlucky as to cross their path at the wrong moment. When scio stops this inhuman treatment of humans, then I can start the forgiving. They have to STOP first. Looks like this is also going to take a little while. :no:

Panda Termint
19th September 2010, 05:21 AM
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

GreyWolf
19th September 2010, 05:32 AM
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Yup.

Caliwog
19th September 2010, 08:26 AM
One can't forgive a person (or, I suppose, an organization) until they stop doing whatever transgression they are committing.

Scientology continues to lure people in with false pretenses, sell them dreams and milk them for money.

Marty and Mike continue to lie about LRH (sorry... "tell an acceptable truth") and lie to their followers.

So far as I can tell, forgiveness is not on the horizon.

ML,
Caliwog
http://caliwog.wordpress.com

I told you I was trouble
19th September 2010, 08:36 AM
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.


Forever and ever.

Amen.

:yes:

I can forgive and have done so, but that doesn't mean I will sit back and let the obscenity (that is scientology) continue to harm others, if and when I can do something to prevent it.

:no:

Ogsonofgroo
19th September 2010, 08:53 AM
Dead criminal, woman/child/person abusing, drug fueled, ego-maniacal, lying-pos, manipulative con artists, have my undying contempt for all time, in this life and any other should they exist (I have my bags packed just in case).
Some things may be forgivable, granted, but many atrocities are not~ and using the 'god forgives all' card is one of the worst examples of how total fucking retards justify their damages on mankind, that and 'I am the answer and therefore infallible' is the other aspect.
Abstraction is what it is, there is no healthy reason why anyone should have to 'forgive' the shit another foists upon them: Don't let the anger eat you up though, live and learn and carry on, use the misdeeds to temper your resolve to live a good life and not let it move you to actions ressembling the transgressors. Teach your families how to avoid such things, teach the world that this shit is NOT acceptable. It can be done, and still have respect, understanding, even love... but it doesn't mean you hang up the swords either, this is how I feel at this moment on a huge topic full of moot.
:cheers:
Bottom line (tl;dr), some crap/people is/are simply unforgivable and best dissolved into its/their smallest nuclear parts never to be seen again.

Nicole
19th September 2010, 09:04 AM
Forgivness is for me only one part. It exist also realization of what made wrong and atonement.

Forgivness without that the other person see what was wrong, isn't good and change nothing.

I was never a Scientologist, but people who I loved were Scientologist. People who I loved were frightened and felt pain.

This "cult" came into my life without that I wanted it and it came back and feared me. Somebody gave the order to fear me and plan this evil things.

I can forgive humans that see their mistakes. I could forgive the three Scientologist that fear me this year, if they excuse or only if they change their way of life. IMO they thought they did the right, but I am sure they know what they made. Like Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun know what they made. But I am not sure, that they see what they made wrong in the past. Maybe I am wrong with my opinion, but as long as I don't see any excuse and a change I can't forgive. They never did anything personal to me, but they knew and know lots of things that happen in this evil cult.

... and Hubbard I will never forgive for creating this evil cult.

Infinite
19th September 2010, 10:15 AM
One of the most significant and healing acts of public forgiveness ever witnessed on Earth came in recent times at the Nelson Mandela government's "Truth and Reconcilliation Commission". Even then, the perpetrators of the manifold evil had to confess that which they were seeking forgiveness for. Until we know what it is that is being forgiven, how can we forgive and how can we work together to prevent a similar situation reoccurring?

The difficulty with Marty et al is that they are neither seeking forgiveness nor see any need to do so.

Ogsonofgroo
19th September 2010, 10:29 AM
Forgivness is for me only one part. It exist also realization of what made wrong and atonement.

Forgivness without that the other person see what was wrong, isn't good and change nothing.

I was never a Scientologist, but people who I loved were Scientologist. People who I loved were frightened and felt pain.

This "cult" came into my life without that I wanted it and it came back and feared me. Somebody gave the order to fear me and plan this evil things.

I can forgive humans that see their mistakes. I could forgive the three Scientologist that fear me this year, if they excuse or only if they change their way of life. IMO they thought they did the right, but I am sure they know what they made. Like Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun know what they made. But I am not sure, that they see what they made wrong in the past. Maybe I am wrong with my opinion, but as long as I don't see any excuse and a change I can't forgive. They never did anything personal to me, but they knew and know lots of things that happen in this evil cult.

... and Hubbard I will never forgive for creating this evil cult.

You bring up an excellent point, and i do agree, that part of any sort of 'forgiveness' must entail the realization of the perpetrator for their errors against the victims, at the very least. this is not always enough imho, I do not hold a biblical 'forgive all the crap' either. If justice was universal, hm, then let those who harm others suffer the same fates and pains.
It is a hard decision to not help those who have transgressed, but truly some just deserve to be isolated and ignored and die forever, its the bitch of karma imho, and her memory is very long (cat).

Panda Termint
19th September 2010, 11:16 AM
You seem to be talking about some kind of Conditional Forgiveness (?). That's something other than Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a thing bestowed. In my opinion, it benefits the giver much more than the recipient.

nexus100
19th September 2010, 11:29 AM
You seem to be talking about some kind of Conditional Forgiveness (?). That's something other than Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a thing bestowed. In my opinion, it benefits the giver much more than the recipient.

I agree 100%. Forgiveness is a tremendous emotional release that harms no one and allows change. It sure isn't the easiest path to understanding, my opinion. But it works.

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
19th September 2010, 11:35 AM
They really aren't significant enough to me not to forgive

and far as forgetting goes ... not a chance

Arthur Dent
19th September 2010, 11:45 AM
Forgiveness is powerful. It gives you power and it grants power.

I forgave so much stupidity and meanness while in the cofs...and that kept me going in there for some time. :duh: But I think doing so kept me more sane and allowed for the enlightenment needed to get away from them. Had I not exercised a kind heart perhaps my sentence would have been even longer!:omg:

The "other party" doesn't always cop to why you think they may need to be forgiven however. So there is an interactive forgiving and then there is a solo forgiving. (Not self-forgiving)

With the cofs it's a solo forgiving because in their mind they have done no wrong. But then, I don't think you can forgive a corporate money grubbing entity as it's not a sentient being. You can only forgive individuals. I've forgiven some and am close on some others. It's a healthy goal. It takes time.

Nicole
19th September 2010, 12:09 PM
You seem to be talking about some kind of Conditional Forgiveness (?). That's something other than Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a thing bestowed. In my opinion, it benefits the giver much more than the recipient.

I can forgive people who I know, who stand me near, in an altruistically way. Here I see a different, I can't forgive them as person, because I don't know them. I see in them persons that made "crimes" for a criminal organization. ... and imo they don't see the crimes they made or can't see it.


„Beurteile einen Menschen lieber nach seinen Handlungen als nach seinen Worten; denn viele handeln schlecht und sprechen vortrefflich.“
Matthias Claudius

google translation

"Judge a man by his actions rather than by his words, for many bad act and speak well."

nexus100
19th September 2010, 12:13 PM
I can forgive people who I know, who stand me near, in an altruistically way. Here I see a different, I can't forgive them as person, because I don't know them. I see in them persons that made "crimes" for a criminal organization. ... and imo they don't see the crimes they made or can't see it.



google translation

One can smile, and smile, and be a villain

Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet

Forgiveness isn't necessarily about who one is forgiving. It is releasing one's interest. Much consciousness is tied up in moral decision. Letting all of that go may be a huge relief, if and as one chooses to do so. But it is individual choice-with no right or wrong attached.

degraded being
19th September 2010, 12:57 PM
Understanding seems better than forgiveness to me.
Forgiveness seems to be necessary when the only understanding is that someone has done something for their gain or benefit with no redeeming aspects such as thinking they had to do it for survival, or being pressured etc. Or when something causes so much pain their excuses really don't cut it as an explanation.

I don't see how someone who is still doing something nasty can be forgiven or that forgiveness in such a situation is a positive thing.

I don't get the forgiveness thing really. When something is really understood, I think the *personal* aspect of it can be let go. But even then some people have had such terrible things done to them by others, to say that they can let go might be just to make it worse for them.
If forgiveness works for some, good luck to them. I think it can work just as much for the forgiven as the forgiver - if the forgiven really thinks they have done something unjustifiable and really regrets it.

I had too much catholic based *forgiveness* indoctrination, which was tightly bound up with associated ideas of guilt, needing to gain the approval of a God who demands perfection yet insists (according to his representatives on Earth) that we are so flawed and fucked up we can never be perfect; confessions which act as a controlling ritual; saints held up as examples of how we should try to be (impossible task) and all sorts of other psychological mindfuck techniques. So forgiveness, to me, seems mostly a sanctimonious load of BS, a lack of analysis or real attempt to work out what is going on, or acting out implanted ideas of how we should be.

As stated, I can see how it may be useful, or sometimes the *only* way to get peace.

secretiveoldfag
19th September 2010, 01:00 PM
I like this thread. You are all such nice people.

IWNAS but I have learned that the books and tapes and cans are not harmless lunacy but the very seed of the destruction wrought on whole people by those who have already been damaged. And that this was all designed by the Beast for this very purpose.

M&M have had plenty of time now to work this out for themselves.

nexus100
19th September 2010, 01:01 PM
Understanding seems better than forgiveness to me.
Forgiveness seems to be necessary when the only understanding is that someone has done something for their gain or benefit with no redeeming aspects such as thinking they had to do it for survival, or being pressured etc. Or when something causes so much pain their excuses really don't cut it as an explanation.

I don't see how someone who is still doing something nasty can be forgiven or that forgiveness in such a situation is a positive thing.

I don't get the forgiveness thing really. When something is really understood, I think the *personal* aspect of it can be let go. But even then some people have had such terrible things done to them by others, to say that they can let go might be just to make it worse for them.
If forgiveness works for some, good luck to them. I think it can work just as much for the forgiven as the forgiver - if the forgiven really thinks they have done something unjustifiable and really regrets it.

I had too much catholic based *forgiveness* indoctrination, which was tightly bound up with associated ideas of guilt, needing to gain the approval of a God who demands perfection yet insists (according to his representatives on Earth) that we are so flawed and fucked up we can never be perfect; confessions which act as a controlling ritual; saints held up as examples of how we should try to be (impossible task) and all sorts of other psychological mindfuck techniques. So forgiveness, to me, seems mostly a sanctimonious load of BS, a lack of analysis or real attempt to work out what is going on, or acting out implanted ideas of how we should we.

As stated, I can see how it may be useful, or sometimes the *only* way to get peace.

12 years of Catholic schools for me!
Let's say forgiveness is part of understanding. It releases emotion and ideas that cloud one from seeing what is really there, which is, after all, what understanding really is. Forgiveness is a faith thing. One wishes it or not. My opinion.

degraded being
19th September 2010, 01:16 PM
12 years of Catholic schools for me!
Let's say forgiveness is part of understanding. It releases emotion and ideas that cloud one from seeing what is really there, which is, after all, what understanding really is. Forgiveness is a faith thing. One wishes it or not. My opinion.

It works the other way for me. Understanding allows forgiveness. Sometimes. I think it is probably important to understand when *not* to forgive. Too hasty to forgive anything or anyone could be naive.
Battered wives?

nexus100
19th September 2010, 01:17 PM
It works the other way for me. Understanding allows forgiveness. Sometimes. I think it is probably important to understand when *not* to forgive. Too hasty to forgive anything or anyone could be naive.
Battered wives?

Nothing could be worse than being naive. I think we all can agree to that!

Nicole
19th September 2010, 03:36 PM
It works the other way for me. Understanding allows forgiveness. Sometimes. I think it is probably important to understand when *not* to forgive. Too hasty to forgive anything or anyone could be naive.
Battered wives?

A good point of view!:yes:

AnonyMary
19th September 2010, 03:52 PM
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Judging others, Rebuking, reproving, forgiving. Some additional food for thought:

" So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3 (http://bible.cc/luke/17-3.htm)

The Bible Says to Correct, Rebuke & be Bold to Sinners. What is Judging? (http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/judgement.htm)
The Confusion Between Judging and (Bold Rebuking, Warning or Correction.)

[..]Some people say all judgment is wrong by singling out the verse "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7:1). It is true that there are certain forms of judgment that we are not meant to make. The above verse is referring to one of these forms. However, there are instances where the Bible says that we need to judge. We need to read other verses and not only the one above.

Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning. It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don't, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person. "James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." [..]

I think this is important when considering scientology and M&M and thir acts:

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Ephesians 5:11 KJV

Main Entry: re·prove
Pronunciation: ri-'prüv
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·proved; re·prov·ing
Etymology: Middle English repreven, reproven, from Anglo-French reprover, from Late Latin reprobare to disapprove, condemn, from Latin re- + probare to test, approve -- more at PROVE
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
2 : to express disapproval of : CENSURE <it is not for me to reprove popular taste -- D. W. Brogan>
3 obsolete : DISPROVE, REFUTE
4 obsolete : CONVINCE, CONVICT
intransitive verb : to express rebuke or reproof
- re·prov·er noun
- re·prov·ing·ly /-'prü-vi[ng]-lE/ adverb
synonyms REPROVE, REBUKE, REPRIMAND, ADMONISH, REPROACH, CHIDE mean to criticize adversely. REPROVE implies an often kindly intent to correct a fault <gently reproved my table manners>. REBUKE suggests a sharp or stern reproof <the papal letter rebuked dissenting clerics>. REPRIMAND implies a severe, formal, often public or official rebuke <reprimanded by the ethics committee>. ADMONISH suggests earnest or friendly warning and counsel <admonished by my parents to control expenses>. REPROACH and CHIDE suggest displeasure or disappointment expressed in mild reproof or scolding <reproached him for tardiness> <chided by their mother for untidiness>.


Main Entry: 1 re·buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·buked; re·buk·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French rebucher, rebouker to blunt, check, reprimand
Date: 14th century
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re·buk·er noun

-------------
[..] Luke 17:3-4 (TNIV)
3 So watch yourselves.“If a brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and IF they repent, forgive them. 4 Even IF they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.

In this Scripture, in context, Jesus is speaking about how we deal directly with others around us. The focus is on the relationship we share, not just the condition of our heart. In other words, Jesus is speaking here to the apostles about what they should do…not just how they should be.

QUESTION: Is forgiving somone primarily for you or for them?

In that context, a few things struck me as “tough” concerning this Scripture: When I first read this Scripture – these words of Jesus – I wondered why the “if”? Because to bring reconciliation, forgiveness must be received as well as extended. If another person is unwilling to acknowledge his fault, they will not receive our forgiveness. [..]

Arthur Dent
19th September 2010, 04:43 PM
It works the other way for me. Understanding allows forgiveness. Sometimes. I think it is probably important to understand when *not* to forgive. Too hasty to forgive anything or anyone could be naive.
Battered wives?

Forgive only when at a safe distance from your attacker!:yes:

Mockingbird6
19th September 2010, 06:04 PM
One can't forgive a person (or, I suppose, an organization) until they stop doing whatever transgression they are committing.


http://caliwog.wordpress.com

Wow, just contemplating the difference is mind-expanding:

Does the person (organization) have to stop committing the transgression before you can forgive them?
Can you forgive a person while they are still committing the action?
Can you forgive a person before they even commit the action?

Take your young child, for instance. Child comes up and hits you. Do you then hate this child until it mends its ways and sees that it should not hit you? Or do you simply handle the situation while continuing to love and forgive the child?

If you are already angry at the kid, it will be harder to handle the situation. If you are madly in love with this silly infant you may even laugh but you will still correct it and help it become a better person.

I know I've reduced this to simplistic terms, but go back and ask yourself the three questions above and observe your own answers.

ML, M6

Royal Prince Xenu
19th September 2010, 06:12 PM
Yes, I'll forgive... when I get 2 * $19,000 pa at 10% interest from 1986 to date.

me myself & i
20th September 2010, 02:34 AM
Understanding seems better than forgiveness to me.
Forgiveness seems to be necessary when the only understanding is that someone has done something for their gain or benefit with no redeeming aspects such as thinking they had to do it for survival, or being pressured etc. Or when something causes so much pain their excuses really don't cut it as an explanation.

I don't see how someone who is still doing something nasty can be forgiven or that forgiveness in such a situation is a positive thing.

I don't get the forgiveness thing really. When something is really understood, I think the *personal* aspect of it can be let go. But even then some people have had such terrible things done to them by others, to say that they can let go might be just to make it worse for them.
If forgiveness works for some, good luck to them. I think it can work just as much for the forgiven as the forgiver - if the forgiven really thinks they have done something unjustifiable and really regrets it.

I had too much catholic based *forgiveness* indoctrination, which was tightly bound up with associated ideas of guilt, needing to gain the approval of a God who demands perfection yet insists (according to his representatives on Earth) that we are so flawed and fucked up we can never be perfect; confessions which act as a controlling ritual; saints held up as examples of how we should try to be (impossible task) and all sorts of other psychological mindfuck techniques. So forgiveness, to me, seems mostly a sanctimonious load of BS, a lack of analysis or real attempt to work out what is going on, or acting out implanted ideas of how we should be.

As stated, I can see how it may be useful, or sometimes the *only* way to get peace.

Accidently (or prematurely) hit 'quote'. I love this communication and will come back to it later. Thanks DB.

mm&i

me myself & i
20th September 2010, 02:38 AM
Nothing could be worse than being naive. I think we all can agree to that!

I don't.

It seems to me naivety is the polarity side of wisdom meaning essentially the absence of experience (which is the substance of wisdom).

In terms of time I would, however, agree, being naive sucks, in the moment.

Bathwater baby comes to mind.

Lol.

mm&i

ps I've always experienced a certain affinity for persons whom realized they were by and large not brilliant. Naive in a word. And knew it. Which I suppose is the opposite of a smart ass. Lol. Of which experience has taught me to be wary.

Think Ron (with an ability to take off the edge).

Infinite
20th September 2010, 03:55 AM
It seems to me naivety is the polarity side of wisdom meaning essentially the absence of experience (which is the substance of wisdom).

I know plenty of people who have had lots of experience but cannot be described as "wise" - consider the clams still locked in the cult: how much experience of futility have they suffered? I suggest its knowledge that is the substance of wisdom.

Royal Prince Xenu
20th September 2010, 04:25 AM
I don't.

It seems to me naivety is the polarity side of wisdom meaning essentially the absence of experience (which is the substance of wisdom).

In terms of time I would, however, agree, being naive sucks, in the moment.

Bathwater baby comes to mind.

Lol.

mm&i

ps I've always experienced a certain affinity for persons whom realized they were by and large not brilliant. Naive in a word. And knew it. Which I suppose is the opposite of a smart ass. Lol. Of which experience has taught me to be wary.

Think Ron (with an ability to take off the edge).

It hurts very much to realize that I was sharp, but the mistake of getting involved in $cn really dulled the edge. These days I'm spending more time finding out just how much I don't actually know--and boy! There's a lot of it!


I know plenty of people who have had lots of experience but cannot be described as "wise" - consider the clams still locked in the cult: how much experience of futility have they suffered? I suggest its knowledge that is the substance of wisdom.

Experience is the unique ability to recognise when you have made the same mistake for a second time.

pebbles
20th September 2010, 04:49 AM
It hurts very much to realize that I was sharp, but the mistake of getting involved in $cn really dulled the edge. These days I'm spending more time finding out just how much I don't actually know--and boy! There's a lot of it!



Experience is the unique ability to recognise when you have made the same mistake for a second time.

I feel the same way, except I was never in Scientology. I made other choices that now- have left me feeling that I could have been more- had I followed a different path. The good news is that I can follow that path today. My own LRH misled me, but people do that. Some are just evil.
But- The show isn't over...not yet and may God bless those who finally are getting it:) Especially the ex's. IMHO-Forgiving yourself is a huge step.

Good twin
20th September 2010, 04:55 AM
I feel the same way, except I was never in Scientology. I made other choices that now- have left me feeling that I could have been more- had I followed a different path. The good news is that I can follow that path today. My own LRH misled me, but people do that. Some are just evil.
But- The show isn't over...not yet and may God bless those who finally are getting it:) Especially the ex's. IMHO-Forgiving yourself is a huge step.

Forgiving yourself is THE huge step. It's actually an ongoing process. You forgive your self in little bits at a time and then you keep finding new things to regret and have to forgive all over again.

I've been working on it for almost three years and some days I'm pretty good then every once in a while I'll stumble onto something that dredges up a whole new layer of crap. All in all I'm much better with myself now. I have come to realize that I will continue to grow and that is probably a good thing.

I told you I was trouble
20th September 2010, 05:16 AM
Forgiving yourself is THE huge step. It's actually an ongoing process. You forgive your self in little bits at a time and then you keep finding new things to regret and have to forgive all over again.

I've been working on it for almost three years and some days I'm pretty good then every once in a while I'll stumble onto something that dredges up a whole new layer of crap. All in all I'm much better with myself now. I have come to realize that I will continue to grow and that is probably a good thing.


This is how I feel too and (thank goodness) I now seem to be beyond the stage where I had to give myself a daily verbal thrashing for being dopey enough to have become sucked into a cult in the first place.

:nervous:

Forgiveness is gentler and the results are much better.

:happydance:



Originally Posted by Nexus


I agree 100%. Forgiveness is a tremendous emotional release that harms no one and allows change. It sure isn't the easiest path to understanding, my opinion. But it works.

:yes:

freethinker
20th September 2010, 05:33 AM
I'll forgive after they have fully repaired the damage caused.

Forgiveness is earned.

Zinjifar
20th September 2010, 05:51 AM
I don't see any reason you can't forgive a man before you hang him. What's being defined as 'forgiveness'?

Would 'forgiving' the crimes of those operating for Scientology mean not trying to stop further crimes? Would it mean not demanding a full accounting for past crimes?

What are we talking about here?

Zinj

Infinite
20th September 2010, 06:33 AM
Experience is the unique ability to recognise when you have made the same mistake for a second time.

No. A person can experience making the same mistake over and over again without learning from it. It is the knowledge that what is expected hasn't been achieved and, in turn, wisdom which gives experience the value of correlation. Thus, experience is subordinate to wisdom and not the essence thereof.

Sharone Stainforth
20th September 2010, 08:08 AM
Sympathy for the Devil:

Warning:Images are shocking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqI2ex9QSw4&feature=related

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness?

Stat
20th September 2010, 08:14 AM
It's probably not very original at all, but I care less.
I can and do forgive (may be too) easily.
But, I don't forget. And why would I.

MostlyLurker
20th September 2010, 12:26 PM
“Forgiving is the ultimate choice that brings us closest to the human and divine ideal of love and peace, Likewise, not forgiving can bring us to despair.

“Forgiveness is necessary not only spiritually and emotionally, but also socially. It could even be the magic pill for many social ills, like violence and addiction, especially in situations involving anger or guilt.

“It rises our ability to remain in control of our thinking and to reach our highest abilities, awareness, and spirituality. It is necessary to life itself, because the ability to let go of upsets enable us to continue to be part of a deeper social and spiritual core, and bring us (and those around us) a healthier, happier life.

“Three of most detrimental myths would have you believe that forgiving:


1. Condones harmful acts.
2. Causes you to be hurt again because you must “turn the other cheek.”
3. Requires you to reconcile with the person.

“In our culture, we agree with these, but they are untrue. Forgiveness does not condone evil or wrongdoing, nor does it ask for your injury. In addition is not about reconciling if you do not want it. Instead, it requires letting go of upsets that harm you, and setting limits on yourself and others - limits that keep you safe.

“True forgiveness free your heart, soul and mind.”





-- Jim Dincalci (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutauthor.php), from his new book "How To Forgive When You Can't" http://s3.amazonaws.com/catawba/covers/135/default.jpg (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutbook.php)

Feral
20th September 2010, 12:47 PM
Neither Hubbard or DM want forgiveness nor do they feel they have done anything to be forgiven for.

Both are currently beyond redemption as far as I can see.

Forgiving them is therefore not on my "to do" list at this time.

When I see justice done and at least the living half of those two on his knees faced with the horror of their wrongs and feeling the burden of the pain they caused I might consider it. That is, given he has more on his mind than self preservation.

I can see I'm nowhere near as kind or wise as the rest of you. Too bad.

Feral
20th September 2010, 12:50 PM
“Forgiving is the ultimate choice that brings us closest to the human and divine ideal of love and peace, Likewise, not forgiving can bring us to despair.

“Forgiveness is necessary not only spiritually and emotionally, but also socially. It could even be the magic pill for many social ills, like violence and addiction, especially in situations involving anger or guilt.

“It rises our ability to remain in control of our thinking and to reach our highest abilities, awareness, and spirituality. It is necessary to life itself, because the ability to let go of upsets enable us to continue to be part of a deeper social and spiritual core, and bring us (and those around us) a healthier, happier life.

“Three of most detrimental myths would have you believe that forgiving:


1. Condones harmful acts.
2. Causes you to be hurt again because you must “turn the other cheek.”
3. Requires you to reconcile with the person.

“In our culture, we agree with these, but they are untrue. Forgiveness does not condone evil or wrongdoing, nor does it ask for your injury. In addition is not about reconciling if you do not want it. Instead, it requires letting go of upsets that harm you, and setting limits on yourself and others - limits that keep you safe.

“True forgiveness free your heart, soul and mind.”





-- Jim Dincalci (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutauthor.php), from his new book "How To Forgive When You Can't" http://s3.amazonaws.com/catawba/covers/135/default.jpg (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutbook.php)

You do know that Jim was one of Hubbard's most trusted personal assistants don't you? He was with him when Hubbard was hiding in New York for some time after the Spanish (?) government decided they wanted him arrested.

MostlyLurker
20th September 2010, 02:04 PM
You do know that Jim was one of Hubbard's most trusted personal assistants don't you? He was with him when Hubbard was hiding in New York for some time after the Spanish (?) government decided they wanted him arrested.

Yes. You can see him also on the Channel 4 documentary "Secret Lives: L. Ron Hubbard", after he got out of Scientology.

Secret Lives: L Ron Hubbard, part 5 of 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BIWv9Cs5cM)

AnonyMary
20th September 2010, 02:17 PM
Thanks for posting about Jim and his forgiveness project.

LRH briefs Jim Dincalci - Project Normandy
http://rutube.ru/tracks/2563891.html?v=544f26767510fe1c69cf8699d646a342
"In this 1975 tape, L.Ron Hubbard sits on the ship off the coast of Florida, and conspires to launder money into the US to set up the land base, puts aliens ashore, and reems young sea org girls for not finding the correct road maps"

degraded being
20th September 2010, 02:30 PM
“Forgiving is the ultimate choice that brings us closest to the human and divine ideal of love and peace, Likewise, not forgiving can bring us to despair.

“Forgiveness is necessary not only spiritually and emotionally, but also socially. It could even be the magic pill for many social ills, like violence and addiction, especially in situations involving anger or guilt.

“It rises our ability to remain in control of our thinking and to reach our highest abilities, awareness, and spirituality. It is necessary to life itself, because the ability to let go of upsets enable us to continue to be part of a deeper social and spiritual core, and bring us (and those around us) a healthier, happier life.

“Three of most detrimental myths would have you believe that forgiving:


1. Condones harmful acts.
2. Causes you to be hurt again because you must “turn the other cheek.”
3. Requires you to reconcile with the person.

“In our culture, we agree with these, but they are untrue. Forgiveness does not condone evil or wrongdoing, nor does it ask for your injury. In addition is not about reconciling if you do not want it. Instead, it requires letting go of upsets that harm you, and setting limits on yourself and others - limits that keep you safe.

“True forgiveness free your heart, soul and mind.”





-- Jim Dincalci (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutauthor.php), from his new book "How To Forgive When You Can't" http://s3.amazonaws.com/catawba/covers/135/default.jpg (http://howtoforgivewhenyoucant.com/aboutbook.php)

Put like that it starts to look like BS.

Lurker5
20th September 2010, 04:06 PM
I forgive those who ask for it, and have SINCERELY changed because of some epiphany as to the wrong(s) perpetrated. That is easy. (However, being forgiven does not negate repercussions - we are always responsible for what we do, and we pay the consequences for the wrongs we commit.)

I think I forgive those I LOVE without being asked. Sometimes that is not easy. And when it is VERY offensive, and has hurt very terribly people I love immensely, it is VERY HARD.

I can recall waking up every morning for years, and feeling the anger again - for a person who truly hurt, to the core, a beloved sibling. It was an act of WILL to just let it go - for another day - and FORGIVE. After awhile it gets less and less necessary, to will it, and those times of waking up angry about it all over again get longer and longer in-between. Eventually it goes away, and the trespasser is finally 'forgiven'. Until then, it is an act of will - daily, then weekly, then monthly. Eventually it is a New Years Resolution - every year, for years and years. LOL. (Does something that deep ever go away completely?)

Well, once I have 'forgiven', my life is not consumed by it anymore.

Is it gone forever? Hell no, not for a brutal hurt to someone I love, by someone I love (such as family). If I dwell on it, or wake up particularly pissed off/angry or cranky, or have a dream that brings it up, there it is again - the resentment, the anger - even decades later. Where does that come from?

Or if a person (that I love) still behaves like they did not do anything wrong at all - after all this time - the person has no insight into their own behavior, if the person still doesn't OWN it - the hurt - the wrong - done - I still have to wrestle occassionally with my emotional state - and have to WILL myself to LET IT GO -once again.

I also have to zip my lip, and not throw (that) old stuff in someone's face. Once forgiven, even just as an act of will, can't do that - ever. Can't bring it up again . . . It is done - for me, even if not for them.

That is what forgiveness is - and sometimes it is so very hard not to toss one off, and hurt back the person who is wrecklessly behaving in a hurtful atrocious way, and disowning their part, passive/aggressively tossing it on the one they have hurt and betrayed . . .

:omg: - Sometimes I have to bite my f'g tongue off.

The things we do for family. BUT I am not talking about abuse - anything criminal or sociopathic - or anything like that. No, some things are unforgiveable. I am talking about betrayals and lies, and cheating, that people do - even the ones we love, and love us. People can do awful things to each other . . .

It's not about the trespasser. It is about me - and my life. I don't want to carry that heavy load of black emotion around in MY life. So - if I love them, I forgive. If I don't love them, they are gone from my life.

And still I have found, one has to come to a place of acceptance, even when the perpetrators are gone from one's life. Whatever the wrongs, it/they will haunt you until you can find something positive and good out of it. Such as the realization - If that had not happened, I would not be where I am right now, doing what I am doing - and since I am happy doing this, and I have grown because of that terrible and painful (horrific/whatever) incident, I am GRATEFUL for it. It brought me here, where I am so much better off.

Of course, I have not LOST someone to some horrific incident/person/crime - so that place I have not been and I cannot speak about forgiveness with that. I hope I never have to be in that place . . .

But I can say this, get to that place of finding something good out of it, and it makes one's own life smoother/better - and/or gives one's life a purpose, makes one a warrior - with a war to win . . . Get something good out of it, like saving/helping someone else, and even if one cannot change the past, or fix the horrifc wrong, the future can turn around - and bring goodness in the wake of suffering.

TheBellMare
20th September 2010, 05:12 PM
Forgive?

Only so I can sleep well at night. Only So I can enjoy my days and be happy in my time left on the earth. Forgiveness is for my own heart, not the other guy.

Forget?

Never. Never. Never.

Golden rule and all that . . .do unto others as you would have them do unto you. . .?

Karma can be a REAL BITCH.

hummingbird
20th September 2010, 05:45 PM
I won't forgive them.

I'm sorry, but IMHO this thread is a little new-agish and schmaltzy.

It's more productive for me to understand myself, what lead me to join the cult, and what I can learn from that personal history.

It's irrelevant whether I "forgive." What's important is learning what I can from the experience, and moving forward with my life (which I have). "Forgiveness" implies looking back, and that I just don't do. What's important is the present and the future.

Zinjifar
20th September 2010, 10:33 PM
I haven't heard anyone *asking* for 'forgiveness'. At best, Marty has offered to help people get over their 'upsets' at a reduced rate. Otherwise, the tenor is 'get over it already'.

Zinj

Caliwog
21st September 2010, 05:52 AM
Child comes up and hits you. Do you then hate this child until it mends its ways and sees that it should not hit you? Or do you simply handle the situation while continuing to love and forgive the child?

Love and hate have nothing to do with forgiveness, Mockingbird. If my kid hits me (assuming he's old enough to know hitting is wrong), then I'm not going to hate him, but I am going to be angry with him. Regardless, forgiveness is not an issue until he changes his behavior.

But hitting isn't the best example - let's say my kid steals $100 out of my wallet. Will I hate him? No. Will I be angry and hurt? Yes. Will my trust be reduced? Yes. When will forgiveness come? When he has changed his ways, acknowledged that he was wrong, apologized, and proven that he can be trusted. If he doesn't do that, I will still love him, but I won't leave my wallet laying around, and I will not have forgiven him.

It sounds to me like you're seeing things as very black and white, yes-or-no. That's a Scientological viewpoint, I think, and I just don't see things that way.

But maybe I'm overanalyzing. To answer your questions:

> Does the person (organization) have to stop committing the transgression before you can forgive them?

Yes.

> Can you forgive a person while they are still committing the action?

No.

> Can you forgive a person before they even commit the action?

No, because there is no action that as of yet requires forgiveness.

ML,
Caliwog

Panda Termint
21st September 2010, 09:21 AM
Just as a general comment and addressed to nobody in particular:
It would appear that Forgiveness is a much misunderstood concept to some.

degraded being
21st September 2010, 09:28 AM
Just as a general comment and addressed to nobody in particular:
It would appear that Forgiveness is a much misunderstood concept to some.

There is quite a detailed write-up on Wiki. IMO the concept can be different from one person to another without one of them misunderstanding it.

Zinjifar
21st September 2010, 09:32 AM
'Forgiveness' is often a *political* concept.

One subject to view. :)

Zinj

Nicole
21st September 2010, 09:57 AM
"Forgiveness" is also different between cultures.

Imo it is very important that each person lives a good and lucky life with his/her decision to forgive or not to forgive.


It is only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Zinjifar
22nd September 2010, 03:20 PM
From Marty's Blog:

------------------------------
martyrathbun09 | September 20, 2010 at 7:28 pm | Reply

No forgivenesses needed or wanted.

-------------------------------------------

Zinj

Panda Termint
22nd September 2010, 03:27 PM
I guess the above proves your point, Zinj.

'Forgiveness' is often a *political* concept.
Zinj

cadet
3rd February 2012, 01:40 AM
Put me squarely in the anti-forgiveness camp. Moreover I resent the inference that someone unwilling to forgive is somehow harming themselves, that is patently false.

I can certainly see how many people on here who contributed to and perpetrated the abuses of the church would absolutely love for everyone to forgive each other and themselves, call the whole thing a big mistake and move on. It would be convenient, it might even be cathartic and help your "healing process".

Unfortunately it is also a bunch of bullshit and is the same attitude that allowed the church to grow in the first place. When I see this attitude it gets right to the heart of the problem with the church, weak people. If it were not for weak people LRH would have been just a crazy old man yelling in an empty room.

I have no sympathy, or forgiveness in my heart for grown adults who were stupid enough to give away their money in a narcissistic quest for immortality. I have nothing but contempt for grown adults who joined the cause and took an active role in the organizations that were separating those narcissistic fools from their money.

For those grown adults who took the next step and dedicated 1,000,000,000 years to this sham and most particularly those who destroyed their own families, contributed to the destruction of other families, or aided and abetted the CEO, Cadet Org, or any minor joining the Sea Org I will never forgive you, I will never forget you and I hope the ridiculous idea of karma is true, because you deserve everlasting pain and anguish and karma would deliver.

Mike had a daughter in the cadet org whom he never saw, he abandoned her and she is still in there today. Marty issued an order that put about half the cadets onto the Children's RPF. They are contemptible, evil bastards and the only difference between them and DM is semantics.

The only thing of value I ever got in exchange for my childhood was the backbone and will to live born from the anger at my mistreatment. I used it to build a happy and productive life and provide the love and care for my own family and children that was denied me. It is the same anger that I have used to help get my other friends and minors out of the Sea Org.

My anger is a valuable and hard won possession, I am never giving it up.

Mark A. Baker
3rd February 2012, 01:56 AM
Put me squarely in the anti-forgiveness camp. Moreover I resent the inference that someone unwilling to forgive is somehow harming themselves, that is patently false. ...

:no: No, it is absolutely true. A person is under no obligation to forgive another, so you are right there. However, the residual anger which is an inherent feature of an unwillingness to forgive serves as both a spiritual & mental block. It is a continuing impairment to the person bearing the anger, blocking them emotionally and reducing their ability to think clearly & analytically.

The ability to understand is degraded to some degree by the power of reactive emotion reaction. Only by reducing & eliminating his anger can that individual expand his understanding. Once the anger is gone there remains no further barrier to forgiveness.

A person may carry an unforgiving attitude as he may wish. The only person genuinely harmed by doing so is himself.


Mark A. Baker

cadet
3rd February 2012, 02:50 AM
:no: No, it is absolutely true. A person is under no obligation to forgive another, so you are right there. However, the residual anger which is an inherent feature of an unwillingness to forgive serves as both a spiritual & mental block. It is a continuing impairment to the person bearing the anger, blocking them emotionally and reducing their ability to think clearly & analytically.

The ability to understand is degraded to some degree by the power of reactive emotion reaction. Only by reducing & eliminating his anger can that individual expand his understanding. Once the anger is gone there remains no further barrier to forgiveness.

A person may carry an unforgiving attitude as he may wish. The only person genuinely harmed by doing so is himself.


Mark A. Baker

:no: No. You are wrong.

With all due respect Mr Mark A. Baker, I am capable of thinking clearly and analytically. At least enough, not to take advice, (posed in the form of pedantic authority), from someone who was incapable of thinking clearly and analytically enough himself, to avoid joining a stupid science fiction cult of his own free will. An action which should cause any analytical person to come to the conclusion that they should not be dispensing such advice.

Your assertions about forgiveness are nothing but your own opinions and the manner in which you communicate them is abrasive and absolute, which causes me to dismiss them out of hand.

There are reprehensible people that do unforgivable things. Hitler was one, LRH and DM,(to my mind), are others. There are reprehensible people that do unforgivable things and then hide behind the skirts of stronger men, with the "I was only following orders" defense. Eichmann was one of those, Marty and Mike are (to my mind), others.

Now you may say that these Scientologists never did anything even remotely close to Hitler and that is true. On the other hand Hitler never directly affected my life and made me suffer, LRH, DM, Mike and Marty all did. So for me personally and in my own opinion, which is all I ever spoke to, I don't buy the "I was only following orders" defense for Nazis and I am not going to buy it for Scientologists.

A.K. Myers
3rd February 2012, 06:06 PM
I like to forgive. It means that I am on top, the senior
survivor. I am so noble and you are still a zhlub. "I forgive
you!"

:coolwink:

anonomog
3rd February 2012, 07:17 PM
Cadet, I think Mark is right to a point. (OMG what have I said!!:ohmy:)

There is nothing wrong with a bit of anger unless the anger is hurting you.
I wouldn't want to give the person or thing that ticked me off the satisfaction of seeing me suffer any more from high blood pressure, heart attack or strokes. Hell NO! :melodramatic:

But I like AK Myers
I like to forgive. It means that I am on top, the senior
survivor. I am so noble and you are still a zhlub. "I forgive
you!"
:biggrin: too true
Ever been forgiven by someone and all you can think is why are you forgiving me when you were the a*hole? Now you are an a*hole with a jesus complex. Give me a break.

I'm not a fan of the new agey/psychobabble I forgive you spiel after hours of expensive therapy. I have seen people emerge angrier, they just hid it better.
But different strokes...Some find it helpful. Perhaps not their loved ones, but if they find it helpful then good for them. God help their loved ones.

I prefer honest anger to the forgiveness that has to be worked on everyday, the mouth is smiling and sweet and the eyes are seething. Then not only does the person remain angry and in denial, but is also a hypocrite.

IMO forgiveness needs to be felt and not worked on. For me, it is much more doable to get into a space where the past words or actions no longer affect me and then, possibly look at forgiveness if I think it is necessary.

Usually a bit of time, some genuine joy in day to day living, and some more time, helps the process.

cadet
4th February 2012, 12:28 AM
Cadet, I think Mark is right to a point. (OMG what have I said!!:ohmy:)

There is nothing wrong with a bit of anger unless the anger is hurting you.
I wouldn't want to give the person or thing that ticked me off the satisfaction of seeing me suffer any more from high blood pressure, heart attack or strokes. Hell NO! :melodramatic:



Here is the difference I see. A lot of people who are, or were, "ticked off" at the church because the got tricked and lost some money are advocating for forgiveness. I can't relate to that because that is not my experience.

No one tricked me and I am not ticked off.

My childhood was forcibly stolen from me and I am livid.

This specific thread is about forgiving L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and myself. I don't have a thing to forgive myself for in this regard and L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder can go fuck themselves.

Jquepublic
4th February 2012, 12:34 AM
Here is the difference I see. A lot of people who are, or were, "ticked off" at the church because the got tricked and lost some money are advocating for forgiveness. I can't relate to that because that is not my experience.

No one tricked me and I am not ticked off.

My childhood was forcibly stolen from me and I am livid.

This specific thread is about forgiving L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and myself. I don't have a thing to forgive myself for in this regard and L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder can go fuck themselves.

You are absolutely right. You don't have any of the blame for the cult or for your experience in it.

Mark A. Baker
4th February 2012, 12:40 AM
Cadet, I think Mark is right to a point. (OMG what have I said!!:ohmy:) ...

Never fear. I shan't use it against you. Can't speak for others though. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker

Mark A. Baker
4th February 2012, 12:57 AM
Here is the difference I see. A lot of people who are, or were, "ticked off" at the church because the got tricked and lost some money are advocating for forgiveness. I can't relate to that because that is not my experience.

No one tricked me and I am not ticked off.

My childhood was forcibly stolen from me and I am livid.

This specific thread is about forgiving L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder and myself. I don't have a thing to forgive myself for in this regard and L. Ron Hubbard, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder can go fuck themselves.

And I haven't said anything to suggest that you must. As a child you were wholly victimized by the cult. No question about that. Your anger in these circumstances is wholly natural. Your position was not the same as an adult who willingly involved himself and his family with them.

I do think though that it would be in your long term best interest to consider how you might work out your anger so that you can reduce the adverse impact it continues to have in your life. That doesn't mean you must either forget what has happened, or forgive those responsible.

Forgiveness means nothing if you aren't feeling ready to forgive. It can not be forced. Clearly your anger is founded in the injustices done to you. That is not an unexpected or inappropriate reaction. Nonetheless anger has long term physical & mental effects which are deleterious the well-being of a person. Chronic anger is debilitating. Eliminating the source of such anger is beneficial. That is the basis for my views on anger & forgiveness.


Mark A. Baker

Ogsonofgroo
4th February 2012, 02:06 AM
And I haven't said anything to suggest that you must. As a child you were wholly victimized by the cult. No question about that. Your anger in these circumstances is wholly natural. Your position was not the same as an adult who willingly involved himself and his family with them.

I do think though that it would be in your long term best interest to consider how you might work out your anger so that you can reduce the adverse impact it continues to have in your life. That doesn't mean you must either forget what has happened, or forgive those responsible.

Forgiveness means nothing if you aren't feeling ready to forgive. It can not be forced. Clearly your anger is founded in the injustices done to you. That is not an unexpected or inappropriate reaction. Nonetheless anger has long term physical & mental effects which are deleterious the well-being of a person. Chronic anger is debilitating. Eliminating the source of such anger is beneficial. That is the basis for my views on anger & forgiveness.


Mark A. Baker

Ya know, hm, I myself (as in speaking for no others), can have things in my mind all sorted out, and still keep a coal of anger burning for those that transgress against humanity, it does me no harm as I know from whence it origionates and is well contained in my sensibility and sense of worth of self.
I said it before a while back, anger does not have to control you, you are the master of your own thoughts (especially out-of-culty-shite), so in that respect, you must understand that not all of what makes people angry 'infects' their every living thoughts, sheesh!
Though in some I suppose anger and hate can become poisonous if it is the only thoughts one centers on, but I do believe that most folk are far and above all that, hence I maintain that I am quite capable that my own opinion of the ilk of Hubbard, David Miscavige, and all the shit that really pisses me off, is well contained within a certain context that allows my mind to flow forward without any inhibitions.
In other words, how I feel about crap~ does not in any way drag my spirit down. I do not have to forgive, and be fucked if I'll ever forget.

Big moot.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lubx01rG6T1qjv79ro1_500.jpg



etc.etc. :cheers:

cadet
4th February 2012, 02:25 AM
And I haven't said anything to suggest that you must. As a child you were wholly victimized by the cult. No question about that. Your anger in these circumstances is wholly natural. Your position was not the same as an adult who willingly involved himself and his family with them.

I do think though that it would be in your long term best interest to consider how you might work out your anger so that you can reduce the adverse impact it continues to have in your life. That doesn't mean you must either forget what has happened, or forgive those responsible.

Forgiveness means nothing if you aren't feeling ready to forgive. It can not be forced. Clearly your anger is founded in the injustices done to you. That is not an unexpected or inappropriate reaction. Nonetheless anger has long term physical & mental effects which are deleterious the well-being of a person. Chronic anger is debilitating. Eliminating the source of such anger is beneficial. That is the basis for my views on anger & forgiveness.


Thanks for your input Mark. You have completely misdiagnosed me.

I have been out for some time. I got on with my life and sorted out everything I needed to. I have been working for some time to get old friends out and other than that I had no contact with this stuff.

That included this forum and others like it. I felt that everyone here had an unhealthy obsession with the cult and were doing to themselves the same things you have accused me of doing to my own life. I thought you were all a bunch of emotional cripples with no life after the cult. (Sorry guys :coolwink:)

Then I decided that I should have some fun from all the experiences I had by sharing them with others on here and hearing about theirs. I am going to share my rage and anger here because I don't even think about it anywhere else. If you have any problems with that please do us both a favor and put me on ignore.

And please refrain from directing any of your patronizing faux Scientology bullshit my way from now on. Thanks.

Mark A. Baker
4th February 2012, 03:21 AM
Thanks for your input Mark. You have completely misdiagnosed me. ...

It's not a diagnosis of you its an observation about the nature of anger.



... And please refrain from directing any of your patronizing faux Scientology bullshit my way from now on. Thanks.

It's not from scientology but is more closely derived from Buddhist principles & philosophy.


Mark A. Baker

TheRealNoUser
4th February 2012, 03:37 AM
It's not from scientology but is more closely derived from Buddhist principles & philosophy.
What a load of psychobabble crap. It sounds like it is more likely derived from the mind of someone who probably has a whole bunch of people who are angry with him, and does not want people being angry at him, and wants to manipulate those people into not being angry anymore so that he feel less endangered personally.

It sounds like something the dwarf would write after ripping people off for several decades.

Mark A. Baker
4th February 2012, 04:14 AM
What a load of psychobabble crap. ...

Sounds like you know nothing about Buddhism.


... As His Holiness the Dalai Lama mentioned:

"When reason ends, then anger begins.
Therefore, anger is a sign of weakness."
http://viewonbuddhism.org/anger.html ...


Mark A. Baker

TheRealNoUser
4th February 2012, 05:51 AM
Sounds like you know nothing about Buddhism.

http://viewonbuddhism.org/anger.html ...

Mark A. Baker
Sounds like you know nothing about posting a simple web link on a forum.