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ensifer
24th September 2010, 06:17 PM
As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

At the risk of being overly critical of people who I agree with... in large part anyway... I'm inclined to think most of what I've read over the last two decades hasn't really accomplished much in whatever the collective goal of the anti-Scientology movement might be.

Case in point - Marty Rathbun's blog. Here we have this guy who admits to heinous crimes and deeds against Scientologists all while serving at the whim of the guy who seemingly is universally reviled out here. So he blows and then resurfaces as not only an outspoken critic, but also as an opinion leader in the anti-Scientology internet universe.

Which is fine. I'm not posting this to be critical of Rathbun, but sheesh... the shit the guy admits to is pretty serious. And now he's a hero? Okay. So I read his blog pretty much every week, as time allows, and a pattern emerges: it's all pretty much the same. Day in and day out it's this super-secret cadre of RTC operatives working under orders from the COB with the intent of wreaking havoc in Rathbun's life and thwarting him from doing whatever it is he is planning on doing that will bring down the CST, RTC, CofS and all the super suppressives who have stolen the "tech" away from whoever owned it to begin with.

And this has been going on now for two years? Or more?

So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

Okay. I was content to just read what the guy has to say and it's this daily/weekly report on all the failed efforts of Miscavige and his henchmen to put a stop to Rathbun. Talking to his wife's co-workers, ordering pizza and having it delivered, hacking into SABRE (airline reservations) threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. I'm open enough to want to know more specifically how he can prove that these assaults are currently taking place but skeptical enough to not wholly believe them until he provides something more than just his words and some videos of the PI's who followed him around a couple of years ago.

I don't doubt for a second that Miscavige spent money and allocated personnel to try and dead agent Rathbun or mitigate any potential effect he might have on the CofS. What I can't quite get a grasp of is exactly what threat does Rathbun represent to the CofS? I mean other than the fact that he writes almost daily that he is a valid threat... what exactly is the danger he represents? He's already gone on TV and been interviewed extensively that he willing (and apparently gleefully) beat the dog tar out of people on command. He admits to a ton of evil shit that theoretically ought to have gone a long way towards breaking the allegations against DM and the CofS wide-open.

But no such thing has happened.

So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Having been "put in my place" before by Rathbun on his own blog, I decided I would really like to know if the photos and allegations had been sourced. After all, what would be the point of keeping the data secret? All that does is extend the servitude of the RPF slaves and give Miscavige more time to acquire and spend Scientology money.

Makes sense, right? If I'm wrong, tell me... I have a tough hide.

So I put this comment on Rathbun's blog:

As I asked before on another of your posts, I just want to know the sources that document this hanger and decorations were built by SO staff at no expense to Cruise. Iím also curious about the office you displayed in the blog a few days ago.

In addition, where did the images come from?

Itís certainly not my desire to try and debunk or disparage what you say here, but Iíve been active on the internet since 1990 and if Iíve learned one thing Ė itís that anyone can say anything and whether itís a true thing or not, some will be inclined to believe it with no need for sourcing of the claim and some (like me) will take things more seriously when hard data backs up the claim.

Overall, I am more inclined to believe that Miscavige and Cruise have a mutual back-scratching relationship. I donít know Cruise personally so Iím at a disadvantage there. I have met Miscavige on several occasions and had a very brief, very intense event involving himÖ the San Francisco Mission Holders Conference in 1982. So not much would surprise me regarding his unethical and criminal activities. But, like most, I donít like surprises. As much as Iíd like to forward some of what you claim to dozens of people and family that are still heavily involved with Scientology, I personally need to be able to back up what I reveal to them. If I decide to push them, that is. Without hard facts any attempt on my part to use these claims to influence my friends will result in a ďhe said Ė she saidĒ stalemate.

I do understand that your stance is that revealing sources would have some negative impact on the lives of those sourcesÖ but without knowing more about how this data gets out while actual people like Heber canít get out creates a bit of a mystery for me and makes posts like this little more than a rap session where everyone agrees how terrible things are.

Help me out here Marty? Source this stuff and let some of us pop a few more people out into the real world.


Understanding that Rathbun owns the blog and that he has a dedicated following of people who take anything he says at face value, I didn't want to appear critical of him. I've seen what happens when someone criticizes the owner and respected creator of blogs as popular as Rathbun's. I also hoped that he might think about actually using this information he claims is real to help free some of those slaves.

He responded thusly:

Sorry pal. If you need more than is already out there Ė and most particularly on this blog, including its links where you can see the sources under questioning Ė you may as well wait for an enchanted fairy to come around and sprinkle wake-up dust on those you want to pop out into the real world.

Uh, okay. I'll be the first to admit I haven't taken the time to read every post on his blog and watch every video or click on every link. Although, a lot of his clickable links just take you to other posts on his blog. What I was trying to convey is that just throwing a bunch of images on a blog and claiming that Scientology slave labor built the place and paid for it doesn't make it so.

That's why I wanted credible sourcing of the claims.

So how about you people here? Some of you appear to have spent quite a bit more time researching and reading about these issues. So I'm soliciting advice and even opinion here.

Why haven't any of these "horrid" revelations ended up in criminal charges being brought against the CofS?

If there are reliable sources inside upper Scn management with access to incriminating documentation... why are they sending it to Rathbun instead of turning it over to the proper state and federal authorities so action can be taken to free people like Heber and the reportedly hundreds of others who are virtual slaves to the Sea Org?

And the big one... for me anyway... other than the occasional TV program like the upcoming BBC Panorama, is there any reliable, funded and competent group or organization that is actively pursuing bringing an end to such things as the Sea Org, the RTC, the RPF and further... to take all this supposedly leaked information and get Miscavige prosecuted and the funds he has apparently purloined returned to ethical and fully-vetted replacements for him in upper Scientology management.

Feel free to direct my attention anywhere it hasn't been sent already. I'm a quick study but I've already read the generalities and the complaints. Send me to where I need to go to actually help do something.

AnonyMary
24th September 2010, 06:31 PM
Could you just write your exact questions? There are quite a few in there, including whatever it was you wanted Marty to document more.

You are a fool to think that anyone is going to tell you exact specifics of who certain documents or photos were obtained from. The safety of SO members, past or present, is obviously senior to satisfying the curiosity of some.

And by the way, Marty has confessed nothing but 2 things out of thousands of crimes he was a part of with Scientology, Miscavige and crew: The ordering the 'make it go away' of of page 5 Lisa McPhenson logs, and the admission that he, too, hit people like DM did, though not as many times ( :wink2: )

FinallyMe
24th September 2010, 07:04 PM
I'd comment that the purpose of the site would tell you what you can expect on the site. A web site, of itself, doesn't do much -- people do. Have you read on this forum all that has been accomplished by a relatively few Australian ex-Scientologists?

Not that I am a Rathbun supporter in any fashion, but I would seriously doubt that his web site has any purpose related to wiping out the Church of Scientology, so I would not expect any flurry of damning disclosures from it.

Possibly "Why We Protest" might come closer to being what you are looking for in the way of "do something."

Type4_PTS
24th September 2010, 07:20 PM
As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.


ensifer, if you read more on ESMB you'll see whats come out of some of this internet activity. Many many people have been helped in their recovery from the CoS as well as many other purposes accomplished. I would have to completely disagree with you that not much has been accomplished over the past two decades.

Also I wouldn't go by the number of follow-up comments made on a thread to determine the level of impact. Look at the number of views. For example, this thread - Panorama: Secrets of Scientology (Showing BBC1 28th Sept 2010 9pm UK) (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20094) from a little over a week ago has 75 replies. But at the time I'm writing this it has 4249 views.

ensifer
24th September 2010, 07:33 PM
Could you just write your exact questions? There are quite a few in there, including whatever it was you wanted Marty to document more.

1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?


You are a fool to think that anyone is going to tell you exact specifics of who certain documents or photos were obtained from. The safety of SO members, past or present, is obviously senior to satisfying the curiosity of some.

Past ex-SO? What is the threat? Rathbun seems to be doing fine with his auditing practice down in Texas. So are the lives of hundreds of other ex-SO and auditors who daily practice their versions of Scientology without their lives being threatened.

I'd be more concerned about present staff but even then, except for the notable and horrific cases of some staff who were allowed to die and high profile cases like McPherson... is there an understanding among those 'out here' that the CofS would actually kill staff who leaked incriminating documents to authorities?

And I am not being sarcastic. The simple facts are that anyone being held against their will is having a felony committed against them. If you block my driveway and keep me from leaving my own property you can be prosecuted for false imprisonment. Wouldn't the same insiders who provide Rathbun with his teaser photos and secret directives also have access to the materials that could end this very quickly and free hundreds of mind slaves from their prisons?


And by the way, Marty has confessed nothing but 2 things out of thousands of crimes he was a part of with Scientology, Miscavige and crew: The ordering the 'make it go away' of of page 5 Lisa McPhenson logs, and the admission that he, too, hit people like DM did, though not as many times ( :wink2: )

Hah. I won't argue with that.

ensifer
24th September 2010, 07:40 PM
I'd comment that the purpose of the site would tell you what you can expect on the site. A web site, of itself, doesn't do much -- people do. Have you read on this forum all that has been accomplished by a relatively few Australian ex-Scientologists?



Agreed. I have no real interest in watching hours of youtube videos but I've read enough of the summaries to feel quite a bit of admiration for the events down there.

Good stuff.

Oh yeah... and if you're suggesting that Rathbun is really just working up a rep so he can get customers then I'd admit that was my initial impression when I first came across his blog. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on that count because if he has the goods and ends up using them effectively to bring this train-wreck to an end, then he'll have as much admiration from me as I have for the Aussies who are accomplishing something of value.

Markus
24th September 2010, 07:41 PM
As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

At the risk of being overly critical of people who I agree with... in large part anyway... I'm inclined to think most of what I've read over the last two decades hasn't really accomplished much in whatever the collective goal of the anti-Scientology movement might be.

Case in point - Marty Rathbun's blog. Here we have this guy who admits to heinous crimes and deeds against Scientologists all while serving at the whim of the guy who seemingly is universally reviled out here. So he blows and then resurfaces as not only an outspoken critic, but also as an opinion leader in the anti-Scientology internet universe.

Which is fine. I'm not posting this to be critical of Rathbun, but sheesh... the shit the guy admits to is pretty serious. And now he's a hero? Okay. So I read his blog pretty much every week, as time allows, and a pattern emerges: it's all pretty much the same. Day in and day out it's this super-secret cadre of RTC operatives working under orders from the COB with the intent of wreaking havoc in Rathbun's life and thwarting him from doing whatever it is he is planning on doing that will bring down the CST, RTC, CofS and all the super suppressives who have stolen the "tech" away from whoever owned it to begin with.

And this has been going on now for two years? Or more?

So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

Okay. I was content to just read what the guy has to say and it's this daily/weekly report on all the failed efforts of Miscavige and his henchmen to put a stop to Rathbun. Talking to his wife's co-workers, ordering pizza and having it delivered, hacking into SABRE (airline reservations) threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. I'm open enough to want to know more specifically how he can prove that these assaults are currently taking place but skeptical enough to not wholly believe them until he provides something more than just his words and some videos of the PI's who followed him around a couple of years ago.

I don't doubt for a second that Miscavige spent money and allocated personnel to try and dead agent Rathbun or mitigate any potential effect he might have on the CofS. What I can't quite get a grasp of is exactly what threat does Rathbun represent to the CofS? I mean other than the fact that he writes almost daily that he is a valid threat... what exactly is the danger he represents? He's already gone on TV and been interviewed extensively that he willing (and apparently gleefully) beat the dog tar out of people on command. He admits to a ton of evil shit that theoretically ought to have gone a long way towards breaking the allegations against DM and the CofS wide-open.

But no such thing has happened.

So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Having been "put in my place" before by Rathbun on his own blog, I decided I would really like to know if the photos and allegations had been sourced. After all, what would be the point of keeping the data secret? All that does is extend the servitude of the RPF slaves and give Miscavige more time to acquire and spend Scientology money.

Makes sense, right? If I'm wrong, tell me... I have a tough hide.

So I put this comment on Rathbun's blog:

As I asked before on another of your posts, I just want to know the sources that document this hanger and decorations were built by SO staff at no expense to Cruise. I’m also curious about the office you displayed in the blog a few days ago.

In addition, where did the images come from?

It’s certainly not my desire to try and debunk or disparage what you say here, but I’ve been active on the internet since 1990 and if I’ve learned one thing – it’s that anyone can say anything and whether it’s a true thing or not, some will be inclined to believe it with no need for sourcing of the claim and some (like me) will take things more seriously when hard data backs up the claim.

Overall, I am more inclined to believe that Miscavige and Cruise have a mutual back-scratching relationship. I don’t know Cruise personally so I’m at a disadvantage there. I have met Miscavige on several occasions and had a very brief, very intense event involving him… the San Francisco Mission Holders Conference in 1982. So not much would surprise me regarding his unethical and criminal activities. But, like most, I don’t like surprises. As much as I’d like to forward some of what you claim to dozens of people and family that are still heavily involved with Scientology, I personally need to be able to back up what I reveal to them. If I decide to push them, that is. Without hard facts any attempt on my part to use these claims to influence my friends will result in a “he said – she said” stalemate.

I do understand that your stance is that revealing sources would have some negative impact on the lives of those sources… but without knowing more about how this data gets out while actual people like Heber can’t get out creates a bit of a mystery for me and makes posts like this little more than a rap session where everyone agrees how terrible things are.

Help me out here Marty? Source this stuff and let some of us pop a few more people out into the real world.


Understanding that Rathbun owns the blog and that he has a dedicated following of people who take anything he says at face value, I didn't want to appear critical of him. I've seen what happens when someone criticizes the owner and respected creator of blogs as popular as Rathbun's. I also hoped that he might think about actually using this information he claims is real to help free some of those slaves.

He responded thusly:

Sorry pal. If you need more than is already out there – and most particularly on this blog, including its links where you can see the sources under questioning – you may as well wait for an enchanted fairy to come around and sprinkle wake-up dust on those you want to pop out into the real world.

Uh, okay. I'll be the first to admit I haven't taken the time to read every post on his blog and watch every video or click on every link. Although, a lot of his clickable links just take you to other posts on his blog. What I was trying to convey is that just throwing a bunch of images on a blog and claiming that Scientology slave labor built the place and paid for it doesn't make it so.

That's why I wanted credible sourcing of the claims.

So how about you people here? Some of you appear to have spent quite a bit more time researching and reading about these issues. So I'm soliciting advice and even opinion here.

Why haven't any of these "horrid" revelations ended up in criminal charges being brought against the CofS?

If there are reliable sources inside upper Scn management with access to incriminating documentation... why are they sending it to Rathbun instead of turning it over to the proper state and federal authorities so action can be taken to free people like Heber and the reportedly hundreds of others who are virtual slaves to the Sea Org?

And the big one... for me anyway... other than the occasional TV program like the upcoming BBC Panorama, is there any reliable, funded and competent group or organization that is actively pursuing bringing an end to such things as the Sea Org, the RTC, the RPF and further... to take all this supposedly leaked information and get Miscavige prosecuted and the funds he has apparently purloined returned to ethical and fully-vetted replacements for him in upper Scientology management.

Feel free to direct my attention anywhere it hasn't been sent already. I'm a quick study but I've already read the generalities and the complaints. Send me to where I need to go to actually help do something.


Hello "ensifer",

first of all welcome to this board. :)
To understand why it is not so easy to do something against this criminal organization you should read this:

Bavaria: "Scientology is an anti-constitutional movement with a crimogenic structure"
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=19028

and this: Scientology: "Soul Hackers"
http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=915&Itemid=9

In fact as long as you are a brainwashed Scientologist you will tell any lie to protect your "Church" - you are not even able to look at striking facts. It is like if this crazy old man (Hubbard) has erased you as a free thinking person perfectly and is sitting in your head telling you what to see and not to see - what to do and not to do. AND they (The Church of Scientology) have money - lots of money - with money you can buy lawyers - real good lawyers. Having good lawyers and hundrets of people lying for you it is easy to pervert the truth - again and again, and again.

Here is the story of my brother Uwe in the Sea Organization:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=14804

I know this is all a lot to read - thats the next problem in bringing the truth about Scientology to the surface - it is not easy to understand how this "Human Machine" is working - it is quite complicated to understand and not easy to explain to people who have never had any contact with this criminal organization.

And I would say that you found the right place to get answers to all your questions right here on ESMB.
But it takes a little bit time and patience to really get these answers.
I hope I could help you with it.

Best wishes
Markus

Lurker5
24th September 2010, 07:57 PM
This, what Marcus says - as to why it is so hard to get anything ON scn/cos, or get anyone to step up out of anonymity. BRAINWASHING and FEAR - and there is reason to be afraid.

Also, I am confused - if you had a bit of contact with dm back in 82 re: mission holders rape, how come you know so little about the innard workings? OR do I have that wrong? Were you a Mission Holder - or at a Mission, or someone in your family/connection at a Mission? You've left me scratching my head. You seem to know so much, and yet so little . . . ?
Huh?

Or did I read you wrong?

Sign of Success
24th September 2010, 08:04 PM
Hi Ensifer,
As you can see no one in here is actually answer your rational and legitimate questions.
If M.R. don't want to answer you, do not expect other people will do!
The basic reason why they don't answer it's "they don't know as well"

All I know it's what this card's castle is made of.:eyeroll:

Markus
24th September 2010, 08:08 PM
Hi Ensifer,
As you can see no one in here is actually answer your rational and legitimate questions.
If M.R. don't want to answer you, do not expect other people will do!
The basic reason why they don't answer it's "they don't know as well"

All I know it's what this card's castle is made of.:eyeroll:

Is there anybody "talking"?

Do you feel good to lie to people in order to protect your criminal organization?

Best
Markus

MostlyLurker
24th September 2010, 09:21 PM
Ensifer,
welcome to ESMB :happydance: and thank you for your blog (http://blog.ensifer.com/)!
Very interesting and I love old pictures (Alan Walter has been a loved member of this board. He told many interesting stories about LRH and the old days).


I think critics are accomplishing a lot with all the activities, the talking, and so on. First, by talking about the experiences and the lies and the abuses people heal. Second the true nature of Co$ get known far and wide and people who get conned and ripped of are less and less.


About the photos on Marty's blog, I believe they came from John Brousseau's camera. He was working at Int under Miscavige not too long ago. See if these links tells you more: ESMB (About JB):John Brousseau (JB) blows from the Int Base (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=18698) , Marty's Blog (About the pictures):JB adds to the list of lies from the bunker (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/jb-adds-to-the-list-of-lies-from-the-bunker/)

.

clamicide
24th September 2010, 09:22 PM
1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?



Past ex-SO? What is the threat? Rathbun seems to be doing fine with his auditing practice down in Texas. So are the lives of hundreds of other ex-SO and auditors who daily practice their versions of Scientology without their lives being threatened.

I'd be more concerned about present staff but even then, except for the notable and horrific cases of some staff who were allowed to die and high profile cases like McPherson... is there an understanding among those 'out here' that the CofS would actually kill staff who leaked incriminating documents to authorities?

And I am not being sarcastic. The simple facts are that anyone being held against their will is having a felony committed against them. If you block my driveway and keep me from leaving my own property you can be prosecuted for false imprisonment. Wouldn't the same insiders who provide Rathbun with his teaser photos and secret directives also have access to the materials that could end this very quickly and free hundreds of mind slaves from their prisons?



Hah. I won't argue with that.

Maybe, if the government starts looking into the CoS, they will also decide that Scientology is in itself, as a practice, dangerous. That would be in direct conflict with Rathburn's goals. Also, I don't know with whatever he's done, that he wants to draw any more attention from the authorities to himself.

Stuff does happen through the internet...you're talking about one site with one agenda.

Mark A. Baker
24th September 2010, 10:14 PM
As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity.

Sorry Ensifer. Can't help much with your questions. I agree. They are good ones. Just took the time to overglance your blog. Enjoyed it.

FWIW, I was on lines at Scientology of Orange County (after Kemp, under Woodruff) in the '79-81 period. On staff for the last year. Left by '82. Freezoner (liberal, definitely not a "purist") ever since. Pleased to make your acquaintaince.


Mark A. Baker

Sign of Success
24th September 2010, 10:33 PM
1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?



It may be occurred to you that (maybe) there are not "captives' on RPF?
It maybe occurred to you that Marty is making things up just to fullfill his own agenda?

Just a thought.

skollie
24th September 2010, 11:12 PM
1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?



It may be occurred to you that (maybe) there are not "captives' on RPF?
It maybe occurred to you that Marty is making things up just to fullfill his own agenda?

Just a thought.
If you're going to keep pretending to be a Scientologist, please do some research.

http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/rpfinsider1.html

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=7188

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=159128

Markus
24th September 2010, 11:14 PM
1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?



It may be occurred to you that (maybe) there are not "captives' on RPF?
It maybe occurred to you that Marty is making things up just to fullfill his own agenda?

Just a thought.

Oh you poor lost soul - I know- and Mr. L. Ron Hubbard never had an agenda right?
He was a saint and wanted to save the world.

Go and read the Bare faced Messiah: http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clambake.org%2Farchive%2Fbook s%2Fbfm%2Fbfmconte.htm&ei=niKdTMa1IJGVswbAt63mDg&usg=AFQjCNGheiS_VqQTNcLVgfA_Fm1522s2dQ

Best
Markus

shadow
24th September 2010, 11:47 PM
Welcome Ensifer.

A few comments for your consideration...

1. Many people will help disseminate information but need to stay off the radar because they fear disconnection from family, friends and/or livelihood. This leaves a few options for activism such as providing intel for others to act on, and quietly point out the outpoints to those around you and provide support for when they wake up.

2. Try reading some of the stories out loud. You may notice that you sound like some kind of a nut, because this kind of abuse is outside of the reality of the average person and it is hard to convince someone that this stuff exists. It takes time and volume to get people to see real abuse. How many voices did it take for those abused by priests of the Catholic church before it reached critical mass and people listened? The more people out and talking, and verifying the stories of others increases the chance that they will be listened to.

secretiveoldfag
25th September 2010, 12:00 PM
Quoting OP: Oh yeah... and if you're suggesting that Rathbun is really just working up a rep so he can get customers then I'd admit that was my initial impression when I first came across his blog. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on that count because if he has the goods and ends up using them effectively to bring this train-wreck to an end, then he'll have as much admiration from me as I have for the Aussies who are accomplishing something of value.

I think your first impression was the right impression. If there had been any steam in the engine the whistle would have blown by now.

Imagining Marty has any other agenda is our own wishful thinking.
__________________

TEoS
25th September 2010, 12:36 PM
The text below was written by a fake Scientologist and a PROVEN liar:


It may be occurred to you that (maybe) there are not "captives' on RPF?
It maybe occurred to you that Marty is making things up just to fullfill his own agenda?

Just a thought.

LongTimeGone
25th September 2010, 12:40 PM
<snip> So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom. <snip>
Hello ensifer,
I think you may have already answered the question "Does that make any sense to you?".
You don't seem to think that much has been achieved by those who have "scurried off". So with that thought in mind it might be better for the source to stay on board and fight from within. In any case, it appears that the authorities are not currently interested in taking on the CoS, so all that can be done as we wait for them to build a backbone, is to continue to communicate to those who seek the truth.
It might seem that little has been achieved, but one only has to mention the word Scientology now and people simply sneer or laugh about Tom Cruise's lunacy. When I joined in 1986, none of my associates knew anything about the cult - Now, so much more is known that many who might have been drawn to it have stayed well away. That is because of the web, media attention and the work of people on sites like this...
Your questions are valid and personally I think that Rathbun should publically name 10 executives who are in cohoots with him. That'd be a nice start. D.

ensifer
20th October 2010, 05:28 PM
Just wanted to thank all the folks who responded to my initial questions.

In answer to the one person who was curious how I could know so much while simultaneously not seeming to know much -

I walked away from any involvement with the CofS in October 1982. In fact, up until June of this year I never walked into a Scientology Org for those 28 years. I did stop by the local Boise Mission on one occasion to pick a friend up and give him a ride somewhere. The Mission is still being operated by the same couple who I "gave" it to in 1982 when I moved on, away from involvement. I did participate in ARS from it's inception up until about 1996 but found that being anonymous was a distraction and not worth the effort. I decided to be anonymous on ARS because of members of my family still being involved. When my mother passed away in June and the full scope of how she was betrayed (and effectively robbed of her last bit of money) by the CofS and certain family members who are active I decided that anonymous is a sham and that being anonymous just grants even more false power to the CofS.

Most of the personalities (with some notable exceptions like Arnie Lerma, etc.) I read about on the Net appear to have entered Scn and then blown from it after I left, so apparently the shroud of secrecy and the labyrinth of entangled management lines, acronym-laden positions of power and resident "culture knowledge" about post-1982 Scn is second nature to them... and nebulous to me.

Even this Rathbun character wasn't in any position of power when I left. Same goes for Rinder and other commonly mentioned personalities.

After having followed many of the links provided here and from other friends I still don't have any real sense of how these people are being held against their will without the tacit consent of ex-SO who have left and know the specifics (having on many cases been held unwillingly themselves) and yet fail to act, organize or raise bloody hell with law enforcement to "free" people like Heber and all the other missing personalities.

Rinder did give a plausible answer as to why almost all images and videos produced by the CofS are devoid of humanity. He reasoned that if people were shown that they could be named after they blew the Church and used to score points against CofS... you know... smiling Scientologist at the ranch today becomes Anderson Cooper's new butt-boy tomorrow. I give that reason a C+ but, since so many well known people are shown in the various publications along with clear images of their achievement certificates, there are some serious holes in his explanation.

Seems to me that if actual physical force is being used to hold people "against their will" in these secret RPF and EPF jails then any who have escaped, and have concrete knowledge (names, types of force used, locations, verifiable incidents of physical abuse, etc.) of these crimes is honor-bound to go to the state or federal law enforcement authorities and demand action.

With the high level of inexpensive surveillance technology, hidden cameras and other devices it also seems that it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to gain some degree of access to a SO staffer sympathetic to the scene who has a reasonable degree of freedom to come and go and can be recruited to photo and record enough incriminating evidence to being this all to an end.

Last question - are there children in the RPF jails? I mean children in the sense of school age youngsters all the way up to high school ages. And if so, how is it possible for any person with a shred of humanity, after seeing children abused in this fashion, to NOT be open, aggressive and active in bringing the criminals to justice?

Look - if you were a member of an organization that committed crimes of this sort against children (much less adults) and you admittedly knew of such things... and have now left... how can you justify just allowing the abuse to continue?

If there is actual evidence, not just hearsay, I would pitch in myself to see the criminals in jail. And not just a few bucks, I mean time and effort.

Indiferrent Observer
20th October 2010, 07:10 PM
I just registered here to give my take on some of your points/questions.

I have never been in an org, never read DMSMH, but I have followed the critics v. COS saga for a couple years. Part of my daily routine is reading ESMB, OCMB, Rathbun's blog, etc.

Take that for what it's worth, text on a screen.


Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

How do you know they haven't, because the Tiny Tyrant is still in charge and not incarcerated?


So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Incriminating and explosive in what way? More incriminating than any other piece of real estate the COS has dumped 5/6/7 figures into? Unethical, perhaps, but incriminating? How exactly? I'm open to any explanation of this; help me understand.


As much as Iíd like to forward some of what you claim to dozens of people and family that are still heavily involved with Scientology, I personally need to be able to back up what I reveal to them. If I decide to push them, that is. Without hard facts any attempt on my part to use these claims to influence my friends will result in a ďhe said Ė she saidĒ stalemate.

There is so much information on the Internet, how could the photos Rathbun published be more significant than say, the Library that is xenu.net? Not much documented proof there either?

Exactly what kind of documentation would be acceptable, anyway? Do you think the COS would actually document potentially illegal activity, much less let it walk out the door without prosecution for theft?


I do understand that your stance is that revealing sources would have some negative impact on the lives of those sourcesÖ but without knowing more about how this data gets out while actual people like Heber canít get out creates a bit of a mystery for me and makes posts like this little more than a rap session where everyone agrees how terrible things are.

How do any of us know Heber wants to get out?


Why haven't any of these "horrid" revelations ended up in criminal charges being brought against the CofS?

If there are reliable sources inside upper Scn management with access to incriminating documentation... why are they sending it to Rathbun instead of turning it over to the proper state and federal authorities so action can be taken to free people like Heber and the reportedly hundreds of others who are virtual slaves to the Sea Org?

Again, just because COB is still free to reign terror on his "parishioners" doesn't mean it's not been "turned over".

My overall take on Rathbun is that he's mostly honest when it comes to revealing "insider" information about the COS. The tech, eh, that's a different story.

The first time he's ever caught in a big lie, it's game over. I've not seen it yet.

skydog
20th October 2010, 07:30 PM
Here is my general response Ensifer. I do think the internet activity has had a tremendous effect in terms of educating the public that might otherwise be defrauded and lured into the organization. Any internet search will provide both negative and positive information about the church. Anyone unfamiliar with the subject that looks at the claims of each side will, at a minimum, be somewhat skeptical going in and be less tolerant of attempts at manipulation. By all measurable statistics, membership has clearly declined and in all probability will continue to decline.

While the church's assets remain intact and seemingly endless, they will have to rely more on the "investment income" of their real estate and other holdings rather than donations as more and more members stop providing support to the organization.

It has also drawn the attention of government officials such as Senator Xenephon in Australia and resulted in a change in the tax laws in that country. The United Kingdom will probably be the next country to examine the tax status of the organization.

In France, the organization and its leaders were recently convicted of fraud. This was an important case because the prosecution continued after several of the victims had withdrawn their complaints. Unlike civil cases, the government does not need the victim to cooperate and convictions are often obtained even where the victims do not want prosecution or even in those cases where they refuse to cooperate with the authorities. I personally doubt that this case would have gone forward in the absence of the public's outrage at the church's tactics.

In my opinion, the church of scientology is a criminal organization. One of the key actions of any criminal organization is to silence witnesses. The church not only condones this activity but has institutionalized this practice through the various written policies of its founder. In investigating criminal behavior, law enforcement often relies on "anonymous sources" who would be unwilling to provide information if their identity were to become known. These anonymous sources are entitled to "less credibility" than a known source but legally, the police can and do rely on this type of information in many investigations. (See, Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213).

The internet has provided a forum for many of these anonymous complaints to be aired. Many of these reports contain information that can be independently corroborated by other known facts. Scientology's initial response was to "out" these individuals and subject them to their "fair game" policies. The result for the church was a disaster. Instead of silencing these critics, they corroborated the fact that many of these individuals all had personal experience with the church and first hand knowledge of the facts upon which they spoke. It also had the effect of drawing attention to their criminal behavior leading to more and more individuals coming forward.

In my opinion, it is understandable that the victims would be reluctant to come forward. I agree with you that they should, but fight, flight or freeze is a basic response to danger. The church is a dangerous opponent with superior resources and a demonstrable indifference to the basic human rights of its critics.

As far as Rathbun, Rinder, and the other former highly placed defectors, I share your concern of the criminal actions they were involved in. However, these individuals have taken a stand against the current administration and have accepted a degree of responsibility for their behavior. I would recommend studying the Nurenburg trials that followed WWII as there appear to be a lot of parallels to the current situation in the church. I understand Rathbun's reluctance to reveal his sources on a public blog as doing so will trigger a response on these individuals by the church. My question is not whether I personally know his sources but whether those sources would be willing to testify if called upon. My belief is that most will cooperate.

One fact that lends much credence to the negative allegations is the church's failure to file any type of defamation action. In any defamation action truth is an absolute defense. In the UK, the defamation laws are more favorable to plaintiffs than the US-yet the church has failed to sue Sweeney or the BBC. Despite Abramson's (Tom Cruise's lawyer) petulant nattering to Rathbun, he has failed to file a defamation suit-something threatened over a year ago. My guess is that Rathbun is not bluffing and Abramson knows it.

You are correct that the church appears to be alive and well. My belief is that they are at the point of implosion and will eventually find themselves on the wrong side of a criminal indictment. I hope that happens sooner, rather than later.

Lurker5
20th October 2010, 07:33 PM
Wow. Two great replies to a post that left me speechless . . .

Voltaire's Child
20th October 2010, 07:49 PM
As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

There's been a lot of whistleblowing. CofS' relationship with the internet first got reported in the mid 90s when they tried to RMGRP (just like what it sounds- REMOVE GROUP) the usenet newsgroup alt.religionn.scientology which was maybe the first and certainly, at that time (not now) the biggest/most major critical Scn forum. This was a major black eye for the cult. It attracted a lot of attention.

Because of this attention, a lot of people left the cult. There also were a lot of court cases. National attention was focused on the tragic case of Lisa McPherson resulting in a lawsuit by the personal representative of her estate. The case of the defrauding of Raul Lopez also received a great deal of attention and that attention was probably instrumental in the actions taken by his family to retrieve his funds from the cult. There is a toll free number for Sea Org members who either recently left or who want to leave that they can call to get help. In addition, many people who just left or planned to leave have reached out in other ways and received help they would not otherwise have obtained. There's been much media attention on Scn. This has undoubtedly deterred many people from joining. Many people here have been interviewed by the press, including myself. Some of us here have been working toward getting the tax exempt status of CofS and other cults lifted in Australia. This is still pending but there's a good chance it will go through. In addition, France and Germany have enacted a lot of legislation aimed at sects, some of which specifically names/targets the Church of Scientology (aka CofS).


At the risk of being overly critical of people who I agree with... in large part anyway... I'm inclined to think most of what I've read over the last two decades hasn't really accomplished much in whatever the collective goal of the anti-Scientology movement might be.

Perhaps you've just not done enough research.



Case in point - Marty Rathbun's blog. Here we have this guy who admits to heinous crimes and deeds against Scientologists all while serving at the whim of the guy who seemingly is universally reviled out here.

Not universally.


So he blows and then resurfaces as not only an outspoken critic, but also as an opinion leader in the anti-Scientology internet universe.

Yep. And he's helped others to leave the cult. His participation in the truth rundown, his blog-- those things have caused others to decide to leave. He's also directly assisted people who wanted to leave.



Which is fine. I'm not posting this to be critical of Rathbun, but sheesh... the shit the guy admits to is pretty serious. And now he's a hero?

Thought ya said he was universally reviled.


Okay. So I read his blog pretty much every week, as time allows, and a pattern emerges: it's all pretty much the same. Day in and day out it's this super-secret cadre of RTC operatives working under orders from the COB with the intent of wreaking havoc in Rathbun's life and thwarting him from doing whatever it is he is planning on doing that will bring down the CST, RTC, CofS and all the super suppressives who have stolen the "tech" away from whoever owned it to begin with.

So what. He's still a true believer in the "tech". It happens.


And this has been going on now for two years? Or more?

It doesn't negate the fact that he has helped some people leave and that he's gone public about what the cult does. Have you read The Truth Rundown article and seen the related videos?


So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

He can be quite evasive and I'm not too happy with that. But this post of yours mainly comes off like you're venting about him. How the fuck can WE answer those things? We can only speculate. We can only vent, ourselves. Or support him. Or express disagreement. But we can't KNOW. I mean, what- are we supposed to be Marty mind readers?



Okay. I was content to just read what the guy has to say and it's this daily/weekly report on all the failed efforts of Miscavige and his henchmen to put a stop to Rathbun. Talking to his wife's co-workers, ordering pizza and having it delivered, hacking into SABRE (airline reservations) threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. I'm open enough to want to know more specifically how he can prove that these assaults are currently taking place but skeptical enough to not wholly believe them until he provides something more than just his words and some videos of the PI's who followed him around a couple of years ago.

Sigh. See above.



I don't doubt for a second that Miscavige spent money and allocated personnel to try and dead agent Rathbun or mitigate any potential effect he might have on the CofS. What I can't quite get a grasp of is exactly what threat does Rathbun represent to the CofS?

He knows a lot about what's happened there. He's gone public with it. So have others, too, of course. He's far from the only one. The cult doesn't like seeing this info get out. In addition, as you note, he has become a bit of an opinion leader to some people, and that probably has dissuaded a lot of people from either joining the cult or from staying in it. I think he's probably cost them some members. That's less money and power for them.

(snip)


So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest

If I had a buck for every critic, ex member and just plain every day person who exhibited a "kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest" I could retire. I mean, a lot of people are interested.



and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Then there's your answer.



Having been "put in my place" before by Rathbun on his own blog, I decided I would really like to know if the photos and allegations had been sourced. After all, what would be the point of keeping the data secret? All that does is extend the servitude of the RPF slaves and give Miscavige more time to acquire and spend Scientology money.

Why do you think we'd know? Hey, who's on Marty watch today? I forget.

(snip the rest)

Jesus. This whole post is nothing but Marty Marty Marty. It's just venting. So you don't like the guy. Ok, lots of people don't like or trust him. And some do. That's life. All you'll get here are people who either disagree with you or who agree with you. Either way, it's just going to be a bunch of talk. None of us have his house bugged or anything.

Challenge
20th October 2010, 08:26 PM
Yo, David. I knew you when you were a little kid over at the Dallas Center.
I was "public" there. Allen Kapuler and I twinned up on a Dianetics course there in around 1958, and I did courses there and I was audited by your Mom and Red Shea off and on thru years. Your Mom, Dolores, was a Power Auditor at ASHO when I did Power there in 1969.
My best girlfriend , Millie, was sent to Valencia while you were there. She had her baby daughter with her when she flew to England, then got sent to Valencia.
Red moved Scn Dallas down to a wonderful address on Cedar Springs. I remember buying drapes for the big picture windows that fronted on Cedar Springs. Red and Allen were womanizers and both were heavy into alcohol.
I took Red over to White Rock Lake and turned him on some great pot, thinking that he would like it and quit drinking. I didn't (and don't) know anyone who smokes pot and also drinks much alcohol. No such luck. Red loved his whiskey. ( some kind of Irishman ser fac, prolly).
I joined Staff at Alan Walter's Center in '67 or '68. I think your Mom had already left for LA.
Dean Stokes was living with Pat Stetsel and running a Mission in Irving, and Betty Filisky was living with Bob Lypko and running the Richardson Franchise. It was a pretty good time for Scientology, Texas.
Unlike what I read today. Like you, I cannot understand what keeps the SO from kicking DM's ass and throwing him out. Or, just walking out themselves.
I left about 6 months after you did. I left from AO's HGC, where I was auditing as a Cl8.
Great to see you here on ESMB.
When I get smarter I will put some old pics up on yer Blog ( which I rilly enjoyed, BTW).

jana moreillon ( obviously not the "jana" that you married)

ensifer
20th October 2010, 08:45 PM
Perhaps you've just not done enough research.

Perhaps. I'm aware of the larger tax/religion problems CofS has had recently.



Thought ya said he was universally reviled.

That appears to be the case within the confines of active CofS members and orgs. Freedom magazine attempts to make a case for active Scientologists that he is a horrible and suppressive person. Outside the CofS? Who knows?



He can be quite evasive and I'm not too happy with that.

Evasiveness is a problem. It's what people do when they have something they want to hide.



But we can't KNOW. I mean, what- are we supposed to be Marty mind readers?

Well, if you don't know then that's okay by me. If someone does know then it stands to reason this forum might be a place to ask. Maybe someone does know.



In addition, as you note, he has become a bit of an opinion leader to some people, and that probably has dissuaded a lot of people from either joining the cult or from staying in it. I think he's probably cost them some members. That's less money and power for them.

Fair enough.



Jesus. This whole post is nothing but Marty Marty Marty.

Eh? If you read the OP I asked some general questions because I read something on Marty's blog. So, I read something on a specific person's blog and then ask questions about the person and his reliability... so of course the post would be about Marty. Right?



Ok, lots of people don't like or trust him. And some do. That's life. All you'll get here are people who either disagree with you or who agree with you.

Another post, above yours, mentioned the usefulness of war criminals during the Nuremberg Trials as a parallel to people like Rathbun (and Rinder?). I think that's apt. But a criminal is still a criminal, even if they "come to their senses" and attempt to right some of the wrongs they personally had a hand in creating. I have no idea if I would or wouldn't like Rathbun and it doesn't matter anyway. All I'm interested in is explicit data on the unlawful incarceration of people by the CofS senior management. This isn't the only site I'm looking on, but since it's reasonably active it might be useful. Maybe not.

In my spare time over the last couple of weeks I've looked for any actionable evidence of unlawful incarceration... photos, police reports, etc. Haven't come across any yet. So maybe the other post up there is right in asking if Heber "wants" to be freed. Maybe he's content to languish in the RPF... or maybe he left months or years ago and just doesn't want any part of all this. Since I know and like the guy I am interested. Of more interest to me are younger people, children and teens in that setting. The recent case of the young man who left Bridge and was helped by a loose association of active critics and ex-SO highlights the problem. Apparently this young guy grew up in what can only be called containment.

Thanks for the reply anyway. Sorry you're annoyed, but it happens.

Voltaire's Child
20th October 2010, 09:49 PM
There are such things as ex criminals.

ensifer
21st October 2010, 03:01 AM
Yo, David. I knew you when you were a little kid over at the Dallas Center.

Me? A little kid?


Your Mom, Dolores, was a Power Auditor at ASHO when I did Power there in 1969.

Wow. What great days. My mom was doing Power along with Phil Spickler at ASHO from when it first opened.


Red and Allen were womanizers and both were heavy into alcohol.
I took Red over to White Rock Lake and turned him on some great pot, thinking that he would like it and quit drinking. I didn't (and don't) know anyone who smokes pot and also drinks much alcohol. No such luck. Red loved his whiskey.

That's pretty funny... Red stoned on anything other than whiskey would have been a sight.


I joined Staff at Alan Walter's Center in '67 or '68. I think your Mom had already left for LA.

Yep. Well, she had been back at Saint Hill then back to Dallas, worked with Filisky for a while and then was asked to do Power at ASHO in 68.


Like you, I cannot understand what keeps the SO from kicking DM's ass and throwing him out. Or, just walking out themselves.
I left about 6 months after you did. I left from AO's HGC, where I was auditing as a Cl8.

The only possible explanation is that they are zombies. Seeing as how what is called "Scientology Tech" has been available since long before Hubbard parsed it into a palatable format it is definitely a mystery. I have come to the conclusion that people who are so unaware that they actually stay in the CofS are in a perpetual quandary... which they consistently misidentify as "case" or some other useless term.



When I get smarter I will put some old pics up on yer Blog ( which I rilly enjoyed, BTW).

Thank you. I do understand my blog isn't exactly for everybody and I've already had a few people indicate they were pissed off because I'm a CL VIII but seem to have no real respect for "Ron's Tech". You're probably smart enough already to do pics. Just take them to the local grocery/drug store and scan them on the Kodak machine at the camera bar. You can put them on a CD for $3 and then transfer to your PC. It's cake. I'll give you an email address when you're ready and I can put them up for you.

Oh, and you're gonna like some that I found in my mother's things that haven't been posted yet. I also just located a large group shot from about 67 after Alan moved the Center to Exchange Bank Plaza. We all went outside and about 40 of us had a picture taken. I can only ID about 50% of the folks so I'll need help.

Ensifer

Mick Wenlock
21st October 2010, 03:15 AM
Here is my general response Ensifer. I do think the internet activity has had a tremendous effect in terms of educating the public that might otherwise be defrauded and lured into the organization. Any internet search will provide both negative and positive information about the church. Anyone unfamiliar with the subject that looks at the claims of each side will, at a minimum, be somewhat skeptical going in and be less tolerant of attempts at manipulation. By all measurable statistics, membership has clearly declined and in all probability will continue to decline.

While the church's assets remain intact and seemingly endless, they will have to rely more on the "investment income" of their real estate and other holdings rather than donations as more and more members stop providing support to the organization.

It has also drawn the attention of government officials such as Senator Xenephon in Australia and resulted in a change in the tax laws in that country. The United Kingdom will probably be the next country to examine the tax status of the organization.

In France, the organization and its leaders were recently convicted of fraud. This was an important case because the prosecution continued after several of the victims had withdrawn their complaints. Unlike civil cases, the government does not need the victim to cooperate and convictions are often obtained even where the victims do not want prosecution or even in those cases where they refuse to cooperate with the authorities. I personally doubt that this case would have gone forward in the absence of the public's outrage at the church's tactics.

In my opinion, the church of scientology is a criminal organization. One of the key actions of any criminal organization is to silence witnesses. The church not only condones this activity but has institutionalized this practice through the various written policies of its founder. In investigating criminal behavior, law enforcement often relies on "anonymous sources" who would be unwilling to provide information if their identity were to become known. These anonymous sources are entitled to "less credibility" than a known source but legally, the police can and do rely on this type of information in many investigations. (See, Illinois v. Gates, 462 U.S. 213).

The internet has provided a forum for many of these anonymous complaints to be aired. Many of these reports contain information that can be independently corroborated by other known facts. Scientology's initial response was to "out" these individuals and subject them to their "fair game" policies. The result for the church was a disaster. Instead of silencing these critics, they corroborated the fact that many of these individuals all had personal experience with the church and first hand knowledge of the facts upon which they spoke. It also had the effect of drawing attention to their criminal behavior leading to more and more individuals coming forward.

In my opinion, it is understandable that the victims would be reluctant to come forward. I agree with you that they should, but fight, flight or freeze is a basic response to danger. The church is a dangerous opponent with superior resources and a demonstrable indifference to the basic human rights of its critics.

As far as Rathbun, Rinder, and the other former highly placed defectors, I share your concern of the criminal actions they were involved in. However, these individuals have taken a stand against the current administration and have accepted a degree of responsibility for their behavior. I would recommend studying the Nurenburg trials that followed WWII as there appear to be a lot of parallels to the current situation in the church. I understand Rathbun's reluctance to reveal his sources on a public blog as doing so will trigger a response on these individuals by the church. My question is not whether I personally know his sources but whether those sources would be willing to testify if called upon. My belief is that most will cooperate.

One fact that lends much credence to the negative allegations is the church's failure to file any type of defamation action. In any defamation action truth is an absolute defense. In the UK, the defamation laws are more favorable to plaintiffs than the US-yet the church has failed to sue Sweeney or the BBC. Despite Abramson's (Tom Cruise's lawyer) petulant nattering to Rathbun, he has failed to file a defamation suit-something threatened over a year ago. My guess is that Rathbun is not bluffing and Abramson knows it.

You are correct that the church appears to be alive and well. My belief is that they are at the point of implosion and will eventually find themselves on the wrong side of a criminal indictment. I hope that happens sooner, rather than later.

While I agree with a lot of what you have written and, more than that, like your approach to the whole subject - wanted to take up one smaller point you made


However, these individuals have taken a stand against the current administration and have accepted a degree of responsibility for their behavior.

They have not and did not 'take a stand' what they both did was run away.

I bring this up because it gets glossed over a lot. Neither Rinder nor Rathbun stood up to DM when they were there. They did nothing to oppose his treatment of others - though they are both now trumpeting loudly about how off source and bad it all was. These are two individuals who are busy whining and complaining because neither of them had the balls to actually stand up when it counted.

bear that in mind when you review their "actions" - neither of them had the guts to face up to the midget face to face.

Voltaire's Child
21st October 2010, 04:09 AM
I agree with Mick.

skydog
21st October 2010, 02:05 PM
To Mick and Voltair's child: You are right that Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun did not stand up to the midget while they were in and were in fact complicit in many of the felonies committed by the church. This is disturbing to me as well. While their actions may be indefensible, they are certainly understandable. Scientology is a totalitarian regime and any attempts to take down a dictator, if unsuccessful, will be met with ruthless retaliation. Again, I think a careful study of the Nurenburg trial explains the "group think" that occurs in these situations.

Those involved in the criminal justice system understand that in many situations the only difference between a defendant and victim is timing. The witnesses to crimes of violence in many cases are just as bad, if not worse, than those they would bear witness against. The point is that David Miscavige is the person who chooses the witnesses that will expose him. He is not likely to select people that will object to his behavior but rather he will chose those that will profit and benefit from it. The credibility of these individuals after an epiphany is suspect for just that reason. It doesn't mean it is not true, only that it should be critically examined.

Alanzo
21st October 2010, 02:37 PM
They have not and did not 'take a stand' what they both did was run away.

I bring this up because it gets glossed over a lot. Neither Rinder nor Rathbun stood up to DM when they were there. They did nothing to oppose his treatment of others - though they are both now trumpeting loudly about how off source and bad it all was. These are two individuals who are busy whining and complaining because neither of them had the balls to actually stand up when it counted.

bear that in mind when you review their "actions" - neither of them had the guts to face up to the midget face to face.

But they are certainly doing something now.

If you go onto their site and read the comments, they are building one of the most rabid, and effective, groups of critics I have ever seen.

These guys are exposing PIs and their tactics, they are getting on International TV and they are doing internet radio shows with long-time critics, etc.

They COULD HAVE taken the money and shut up like so many others have done.

They did not.

That is saying something.

I am beginning to change with regard to my view of the value of what they are doing.

I do not believe, if the Australian Senate hearings were today, that Marty Rathbun would do what he did. I think they have seen the value of press alone, and I think that law enforcement is now a viable option for them.

I sense a change in these guys, and that change is good.

They could still be on a CMO Mission to keep Davey out of jail. But that, in my mind, is becoming more and more unlikely.

I now think these guys are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and trying to do what they see as the right thing with regard to Scientology abuse.

I also think that their calculated opinion is that getting Dave under the personal inurement thing is their best shot. And it appears to me that is what they are marshaling their forces to achieve.

Like I said, it's better than taking the money, shutting up and going away, which was always an option for them.

And they did not take it.

That should not be overlooked, or de-valued.

Mick Wenlock
21st October 2010, 02:59 PM
But they are certainly doing something now.

If you go onto their site and read the comments, they are building one of the most rabid, and effective, groups of critics I have ever seen.

These guys are exposing PIs and their tactics, they are getting on International TV and they are doing internet radio shows with long-time critics, etc.

They COULD HAVE taken the money and shut up like so many others have done.

They did not.

That is saying something.

I am beginning to change with regard to my view of the value of what they are doing.

I do not believe, if the Australian Senate hearings were today, that Marty Rathbun would do what he did. I think they have seen the value of press alone, and I think that law enforcement is now a viable option for them.

I sense a change in these guys, and that change is good.

They could still be on a CMO Mission to keep Davey out of jail. But that, in my mind, is becoming more and more unlikely.

I now think these guys are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and trying to do what they see as the right thing with regard to Scientology abuse.

I also think that their calculated opinion is that getting Dave under the personal inurement thing is their best shot. And it appears to me that is what they are marshaling their forces to achieve.

Like I said, it's better than taking the money, shutting up and going away, which was always an option for them.

And they did not take it.

That should not be overlooked, or de-valued.

Hmm. Mike did one radio show during which he criticized Miscavige. Wow

Exposing PIs? Come on Alanzo THAT has been going on since the time they were the ones running the PIs!! How about they issue a list of the people that THEY targeted with PIs when they were in? Just that. How about some stories of what they put people through? How about a description of the budget of OSA during the last decade? How about the names of lawyers who work for the cofs that we don't know about?

As for the group they are creating - well to each his own. I think that as "critics" it is totally worthless. Most of what I have read on there is either attempts to one up the brown nosing of the previous poster or an attempt to show how real critics are SPs. And then some gratuitous attacking of anyone who asks for specifics. Rabid - yeah. But then Scientologists have THAT down pat.

But our tastes are different 'lonzo.

But I still like you even if I do think you have discovered your inner gooey core of marshmallow. :p

Veda
21st October 2010, 03:14 PM
-snip-

They COULD HAVE taken the money and shut up like so many others have done.

-snip-



Most people who have "taken the money and shut up" had enormous legal bills, and other debts, accumulated over years of legal battling with Scientology. Offering money is usually the last thing Scientology does - when it's desperate to silence some one and avoid issues coming to court or coming out in court. Usually it's the lawyers who take most of the money, when there's money taken.

I wasn't aware that Mike and Marty were offered money. How did you find out?

Alanzo
21st October 2010, 03:53 PM
OK, I'm just gonna say it.

I love Mike and Marty.

They are the ack I have been looking for. They feel my pain. With them around, I feel more confident, safe and secure that Scientology will finally be "handled."

There.

I've said it.

Call me a fag. Make fun of me. I don't care.

I love Mike and Marty! :happydance:

TheBellMare
21st October 2010, 04:26 PM
Something I think we are not remembering here is that leaving Scn is like peeling an onion.

We were seduced by Scientology very gradually. Becoming aware and leaving Scientology and shucking all those layers of belief is also a gradual process.

I think Mike and Marty are still peeling the onion.

Of course they may still be in that process for the rest of their lives.

I'm with Alanzo. Give M & M a break.

They are helping bring the house of cards down.

Alanzo
21st October 2010, 04:30 PM
This morning, Marty posted a guest article from Ray Randolph with a big banner at the beginning of it called "Scientology Kills".

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/warning-may-be-shocking-for-some-but-it-is-one-major-reason-we-are-here/ (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/warning-may-be-shocking-for-some-but-it-is-one-major-reason-we-are-here/#comment-62633)

I love these guys!

Veda
21st October 2010, 06:52 PM
This morning, Marty posted a guest article from Ray Randolph with a big banner at the beginning of it called "Scientology Kills".

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/warning-may-be-shocking-for-some-but-it-is-one-major-reason-we-are-here/ (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/warning-may-be-shocking-for-some-but-it-is-one-major-reason-we-are-here/#comment-62633)

I love these guys!

"If Marty is honest - and I have no reason to think otherwise - this is a Scientology that I can peacefully and happily co-exist with... I wish all of you, everyone... the very best of luck in saving your religion."

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/COBvsLRH

Yay!!!!:dance3::dance3::dance3::dance3::dance3: (Dancing gullible goobers)

Mick Wenlock
21st October 2010, 07:20 PM
Something I think we are not remembering here is that leaving Scn is like peeling an onion.

We were seduced by Scientology very gradually. Becoming aware and leaving Scientology and shucking all those layers of belief is also a gradual process.

I think Mike and Marty are still peeling the onion.

Of course they may still be in that process for the rest of their lives.

I'm with Alanzo. Give M & M a break.

They are helping bring the house of cards down.

YOU may forget that - I do not.

When I was peeling the onion these two were busy trying to bury the onion.

Marty has been out for 5 years, not 5 minutes.

Bringing the house of cards down? Last I saw - it was still there.

And you know what - while I think about it let me vent a few minutes

These two were part of MIscaviges little clique. You know those people who were in the "hole"? Well these two were a part of doing that. They supported him in his endeavors, they ensured he had the wherewithal to do all those things.

And they ran away and left the people in the shit - still in the shit.

And now they are doing something about it by making snarky, self grovelling comments in a blog and being interviewed on internet radio?

My fucking oath they are doing anything about it. The people they helped kick into submission are still there.

when those people are taken care of, when they are out - THEN these two will have "done something about it".

But its all OK now they are saying nasty things about DM.... give me a fucking break.

ensifer
21st October 2010, 08:05 PM
These two were part of MIscaviges little clique. You know those people who were in the "hole"? Well these two were a part of doing that. They supported him in his endeavors, they ensured he had the wherewithal to do all those things.

And they ran away and left the people in the shit - still in the shit.

This.

My initial questions to Marty (on his blog) were along these lines. Hey, you know stuff, right? You know who is where and you must know specifics. Enough to file a complaint? Enough to bring law enforcement in? Yes? No?



My fucking oath they are doing anything about it. The people they helped kick into submission are still there.

when those people are taken care of, when they are out - THEN these two will have "done something about it".

Yep. The routine on that particular blog is no different than the routine in the pre-blog days of ARS, etc. A clump of angry ex-SO members attacking Miscavige and the excesses of his RTC. Then a bunch of followers come in and ooh and ahh and circle-jerk each other about how enlightened they are and how Miscavige and the entire CofS will soon collapse.

As previously mentioned by Claire, it's not all total hot air because the more people out here covering the crimes/messes of CofS, the more difficult it will be for them to retain or attract new members. Difficult, but certainly not insurmountable. But today all the blog had to offer was some post from an ARS guy who used to hate Marty & Mike and now seems to adore them. Not to malign the vocal and outspoken critics on ARS... but that was pretty much over with a decade or so back.

As far as I'm concerned people like Marty and Mike "created" DM... or at the very, very least facilitated him in his rise to power and snagging all control. There is no way Miscavige could have succeeded to the extent he has without those two guys and a few dozen others.

They made the monster, now it's their job to drive it into the sea. Anything less is bullshit. Eventually they have to offer up something concrete that can be acted on in the real world. Hmmm.... actually, they don't have to do that. But if they don't it's just a matter of time before the spotlight moves on to the next high ranking SO goober that blows.

Voltaire's Child
21st October 2010, 08:39 PM
I think that former CofS upper management types like the two Rs do have a lot to answer for. Now, whether or not they do enough answering is hard to say. I'd say they aren't going to want to fess up to too much. Maybe it's hard to admit that stuff. So many terrible things were done. Maybe they are worried about being sued. Statute of limitations may not have run out on some of it.

I am glad they are speaking out now. I'm not saying the expiates all their past actions, but this is an imperfect world. Sometimes you only get half a loaf.

Mick Wenlock
21st October 2010, 09:12 PM
I think that former CofS upper management types like the two Rs do have a lot to answer for. Now, whether or not they do enough answering is hard to say. I'd say they aren't going to want to fess up to too much. Maybe it's hard to admit that stuff. So many terrible things were done. Maybe they are worried about being sued. Statute of limitations may not have run out on some of it.

I am glad they are speaking out now. I'm not saying the expiates all their past actions, but this is an imperfect world. Sometimes you only get half a loaf.

I do understand that it can be hard to cop to everything or to even see it all. If Mike and Marty wished to be quietly off on their own coming to terms with it all I would understand that better. But they are not - they are trying to act as leaders of a faction, in short they - especially Marty - are trying desperately to set up their own sub cult.

They contributed to helping hurt people - and i am not talking just about hurting their feelings, they led efforts to destroy peoples' livelihoods and families. They also helped create a living hell inside their own area. So they ran away from that - and now they wish to use "scientology" to further manipulate these cretins on their blog?

And this is supposed to be them helping? Bit like getting "help" from Kim Jong Il.

And what gets me even more upset is watching the non-existent level of expectation from them. Wow Marty has a blog!! Wow Mike has talked to Smitty. Like these things are actually meaningful. Many people have done way more than that - and they were people who did not bully and oppress their own, did not run covert operations against people.

Why is it that these two get such a pass?

skydog
21st October 2010, 09:46 PM
I do understand that it can be hard to cop to everything or to even see it all. If Mike and Marty wished to be quietly off on their own coming to terms with it all I would understand that better. But they are not - they are trying to act as leaders of a faction, in short they - especially Marty - are trying desperately to set up their own sub cult.

They contributed to helping hurt people - and i am not talking just about hurting their feelings, they led efforts to destroy peoples' livelihoods and families. They also helped create a living hell inside their own area. So they ran away from that - and now they wish to use "scientology" to further manipulate these cretins on their blog?

And this is supposed to be them helping? Bit like getting "help" from Kim Jong Il.

And what gets me even more upset is watching the non-existent level of expectation from them. Wow Marty has a blog!! Wow Mike has talked to Smitty. Like these things are actually meaningful. Many people have done way more than that - and they were people who did not bully and oppress their own, did not run covert operations against people.

Why is it that these two get such a pass?

I have to admit that my thinking on Marty Rathbun has changed. I didn't know him when he was in but have communicated with him recently. I think he is sincere and should be given the benefit of a doubt. That is my opinion and I certainly respect your right to disagree. My question to you is what else do you believe he should be doing?

Commander Birdsong
21st October 2010, 11:09 PM
Gee, I haven't read the thread yet just the first post but I don't know of any heinous charges against Marty or DM for that matter. Sorry but I am a vet. The Sea Org is a paramilitary formation and M&M and DM are/were topkicks and topkicks get up close and personal. No. I don't like the way things are and I'm here not there but I, uh... do know just a smidgeon about heinous.

Mark A. Baker
21st October 2010, 11:26 PM
I think that former CofS upper management types like the two Rs do have a lot to answer for. Now, whether or not they do enough answering is hard to say. I'd say they aren't going to want to fess up to too much. Maybe it's hard to admit that stuff. So many terrible things were done. Maybe they are worried about being sued. Statute of limitations may not have run out on some of it.

I am glad they are speaking out now. I'm not saying the expiates all their past actions, but this is an imperfect world. Sometimes you only get half a loaf.

And sometimes you're lucky to get a scraping of yeast.


Mark A. Baker :eyeroll:

Veda
21st October 2010, 11:32 PM
I have to admit that my thinking on Marty Rathbun has changed. I didn't know him when he was in but have communicated with him recently. I think he is sincere and should be given the benefit of a doubt. That is my opinion and I certainly respect your right to disagree. My question to you is what else do you believe he should be doing?

It's a turn off to see Marty manipulating people, especially people who should know better. Let him say what he pleases to the media, and let him get on with his cult deprogramming (which undoubtedly he doesn't think he needs), but, when he uses dishonest and manipulative methods on others, that crosses the line.

Why anyone would allow himself to be putty in Marty's hands is beyond me, yet it happens.

Mick Wenlock
22nd October 2010, 01:39 AM
I have to admit that my thinking on Marty Rathbun has changed. I didn't know him when he was in but have communicated with him recently. I think he is sincere and should be given the benefit of a doubt. That is my opinion and I certainly respect your right to disagree. My question to you is what else do you believe he should be doing?

oh dear - the benefit of the doubt? What "doubt"?

Anyway what do I think he and Rinder should be doing?

Well let me see - they could start by laying out sworn affidavits about what happened at Int while they were there, the abuse of other staff, the conditions that people were put through.

They could lay the exact data that they have on the covert and illegal operations that were run under their auspices and that they have first hand knowledge of.

They can contact all the people that they ran ops on and apologize and give those people the information on what exactly was done and how.

They could explain to all the Ex Sea Org how Int was financed, how the "execs" lived, how much they got paid - while most of the SO members were busy living on a few dollars a week and eating total crap and getting no time off.

That might do for a start.

Offer to help those who were hurt by writing the needed affidavits under oath.

They both BENEFITED from what they did. Do not forget that.

Free to shine
22nd October 2010, 03:30 AM
OK, I'm just gonna say it.

I love Mike and Marty.

They are the ack I have been looking for. They feel my pain. With them around, I feel more confident, safe and secure that Scientology will finally be "handled."

There.

I've said it.

Call me a fag. Make fun of me. I don't care.

I love Mike and Marty! :happydance:

Geez mate, you really do swing with the breeze don't you?

Free to shine
22nd October 2010, 03:32 AM
oh dear - the benefit of the doubt? What "doubt"?

Anyway what do I think he and Rinder should be doing?

Well let me see - they could start by laying out sworn affidavits about what happened at Int while they were there, the abuse of other staff, the conditions that people were put through.

They could lay the exact data that they have on the covert and illegal operations that were run under their auspices and that they have first hand knowledge of.

They can contact all the people that they ran ops on and apologize and give those people the information on what exactly was done and how.

They could explain to all the Ex Sea Org how Int was financed, how the "execs" lived, how much they got paid - while most of the SO members were busy living on a few dollars a week and eating total crap and getting no time off.

That might do for a start.

Offer to help those who were hurt by writing the needed affidavits under oath.

They both BENEFITED from what they did. Do not forget that.

:clap: Yep.

ensifer
22nd October 2010, 03:35 AM
Anyway what do I think he and Rinder should be doing?

Well let me see - they could start by laying out sworn affidavits about what happened at Int while they were there, the abuse of other staff, the conditions that people were put through.

They could lay the exact data that they have on the covert and illegal operations that were run under their auspices and that they have first hand knowledge of.

They can contact all the people that they ran ops on and apologize and give those people the information on what exactly was done and how.

They could explain to all the Ex Sea Org how Int was financed, how the "execs" lived, how much they got paid - while most of the SO members were busy living on a few dollars a week and eating total crap and getting no time off.

That might do for a start.

Offer to help those who were hurt by writing the needed affidavits under oath.

They both BENEFITED from what they did. Do not forget that.

I agree with you on this Mick. Back again to Claire's comment that there are such things as "ex-criminals"... she's correct. Usually they are criminals who served time, compensated their victims and then operated under supervised parole. They aren't allowed to vote or own private weapons either.

Personally I don't actually give a shit about the money. What Miscavige takes is meaningless to me and I think the whole money thing is a distraction. The real crimes (or the ones that I'm sensitive to anyway) are the crimes of restraining people and keeping them from leaving if they so desire. These are felonies. In fact, if you read enough of these 'poor me' SO stories you might surmise that often people are transported across state lines and even international boundaries to serve out their sentences away from their network of friends, family and loved ones. So that adds in the potential of human trafficking.

These are all potentially federal crimes and it's possible (if Rathbun and Rinder can be believed) that anyone involved might be guilty of kidnapping and that can carry a life sentence.

With that in mind... perhaps the reason these guys aren't producing viable, usable reports, affidavits and other documents is that they are co-conspirators. I once had a man arrested for blocking the private road to my property with his vehicle when he was having an irrigation dispute with me. Apparently he was unaware that even the simple act of restricting egress from private property is a felony. He wised up and I dropped the charges, but the lesson was simple - "do not get in my way or try and stop me or anyone from leaving". That's a crime. Rathbun and Rinder positively know this...seeing as how (by their own admission) they either committed similar felonies or gave tacit approval to them.

So that leaves what? Rathbun and Rinder are full of shit and people like Heber and this young kid who "escaped" from Bridge are cheerfully and willingly living in the conditions described? Or, Rathbun and Rinder are only telling enough of the truth to get a fan base but not so much that anything can be resolved or corrected.

I figured that out all on my own... the day Rathbun implied that his sources needed to stay confidential.

I have only recently returned to trying to get an understanding of this whole mess. The motivation for coming back after over 10 years was the death of my mother and the discovery that AOLA and Flag had sucked her accounts dry while she was dying a slow death and then the further discovery that my brother took her unused funds for himself, used them for auditing and then told me to go piss up a rope because I was no longer a positive force in Scientology. Quite a few long gone friends contacted me after my mom's death (she was a hugely popular auditor and OL in both the field and LA area Orgs)... it was through them that I found out about Heber and so many other disappeared people.

Somebody knows where these folks are. Somebody has the data to indict those responsible and give possibly hundreds of virtual slaves the chance to make clear-headed decisions in the light of day and without duress from RTC management. The closest thing I've seen on the Net to actual "in the know" people who could provide the material to end this and actually get indictments are the R&R show. Yet they couch everything in the same miserable "believe me" shroud of bullshit that all their fans have been out here whining about Miscavige doing for the last 20 years.

Put up or shut up I say. As if that would ever happen....

Markus
22nd October 2010, 09:47 AM
YOU may forget that - I do not.

When I was peeling the onion these two were busy trying to bury the onion.

Marty has been out for 5 years, not 5 minutes.

Bringing the house of cards down? Last I saw - it was still there.

And you know what - while I think about it let me vent a few minutes

These two were part of MIscaviges little clique. You know those people who were in the "hole"? Well these two were a part of doing that. They supported him in his endeavors, they ensured he had the wherewithal to do all those things.

And they ran away and left the people in the shit - still in the shit.

And now they are doing something about it by making snarky, self grovelling comments in a blog and being interviewed on internet radio?

My fucking oath they are doing anything about it. The people they helped kick into submission are still there.

when those people are taken care of, when they are out - THEN these two will have "done something about it".

But its all OK now they are saying nasty things about DM.... give me a fucking break.

....and they are thinking in black and white which is in my opinion not the right thing to do in this matter for them.

Alanzo you said on one of your posts here:

"This morning, Marty posted a guest article from Ray Randolph with a big banner at the beginning of it called "Scientology Kills".

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/warning-may-be-shocking-for-some-but-it-is-one-major-reason-we-are-here/

I love these guys!"

Alanzo I love these guys too and this is why I will keep on telling them that they are peeling their onion into the wrong direction.

This is a message to Marty I posted yesterday on his blog "Scientology kills" which you mentioned above:

"Marty, Mike Rinder seems to be one of your best friends - so would you please watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAfrWfnxx2E

Watch this short video and look what your friend has done then Marty.
Or watch the third video in this link:
http://www.xenutv.com/blog/?p=4711

What have you done while serving under Hubbard and David Miscavige Marty? And my question is what have you done to make it good? Have you even thought about starting actions to say I'm sorry for what I have done to people. Have you ever truely started to discuss what caused cruel crimes like this? In my opinion David Miscavige by far is not the only problem. Please start to confront what caused all this craziness and start to confront what you have done to so many people - please start to say we are sorry - right now!
And may you please stop to natter about David Miscavige - take the responsibility you have for the criminal actions you have done.
Best
Markus"

And guess if this post made it through Martys moderation....
In my opinion all this is another mean and evil game of the Church of Scientology or these two guys are simply not smart enough to find their way out of Hubbards trap.
Best
Markus


You are so very right Mike "give me a fucking break!":no::duh::ohmy:

Sharone Stainforth
22nd October 2010, 10:24 AM
I'm so glad you found this video Markus, I was looking for it too.I saw it on Lermanet a while a go, but could not find it again.

I am reminded of the wife beating husband and what lies you are prepared to cover up in order to justify not getting a beating.With my first husband, who was a wife beater, he told lots of little lies continually. I knew this, but when he expected me to back him up in front of friends, I was not prepared to do so.These lies were silly things, not anything remotely so cold and hard as murder.

I would like to see Mike Rinder explain this.

I am thrilled that John Sweeney has shown how the CoS operates, but I think there is still a long way to go. I am still very much thinking that the Mike and Marty show, is just that a show.

skydog
22nd October 2010, 12:33 PM
oh dear - the benefit of the doubt? What "doubt"?

Anyway what do I think he and Rinder should be doing?

Well let me see - they could start by laying out sworn affidavits about what happened at Int while they were there, the abuse of other staff, the conditions that people were put through.

They could lay the exact data that they have on the covert and illegal operations that were run under their auspices and that they have first hand knowledge of.

They can contact all the people that they ran ops on and apologize and give those people the information on what exactly was done and how.

They could explain to all the Ex Sea Org how Int was financed, how the "execs" lived, how much they got paid - while most of the SO members were busy living on a few dollars a week and eating total crap and getting no time off.

That might do for a start.

Offer to help those who were hurt by writing the needed affidavits under oath.

They both BENEFITED from what they did. Do not forget that.

I agree with most of what you say. However, I think that the information you want is something that should be given in cooperation with any criminal investigation and not necessarily shared on a public web site. If and when a criminal investigation begins, I share your hope that they will cooperate.

In my opinion there is more than enough evidence to prosecute Miscavige and the organization criminally. The biggest threat to Miscavige are the lower level sea org members that were used as slave labor and the public that have been defrauded out of millions of dollars. They are the true victims of this criminal organization. Mike and Marty have the ability to corroborate all of this and hopefully will do so at the appropriate time.

The benefit of a doubt is just that and nothing more. I will support these individuals until they give me a reason not to. Rathbun knows the legal system better than most lawyers and appears to be taking very calculated action. He has made some mistakes but that comes with the territory. In over a year, the church has not (to my knowledge) initiated any type of legal action against him. Maybe this is some giant conspiracy between the organization and Rathbun, but that seems unlikely. More likely, they know that Mike and Marty will bury them in court. The church has a very worthy adversary.

Alanzo
22nd October 2010, 01:45 PM
Geez mate, you really do swing with the breeze don't you?

Yep. It's the breeze that does it.

Voltaire's Child
22nd October 2010, 05:30 PM
I do understand that it can be hard to cop to everything or to even see it all. If Mike and Marty wished to be quietly off on their own coming to terms with it all I would understand that better. But they are not - they are trying to act as leaders of a faction, in short they - especially Marty - are trying desperately to set up their own sub cult.

They contributed to helping hurt people - and i am not talking just about hurting their feelings, they led efforts to destroy peoples' livelihoods and families. They also helped create a living hell inside their own area. So they ran away from that - and now they wish to use "scientology" to further manipulate these cretins on their blog?

And this is supposed to be them helping? Bit like getting "help" from Kim Jong Il.

And what gets me even more upset is watching the non-existent level of expectation from them. Wow Marty has a blog!! Wow Mike has talked to Smitty. Like these things are actually meaningful. Many people have done way more than that - and they were people who did not bully and oppress their own, did not run covert operations against people.

Why is it that these two get such a pass?

There are some accounts on Marty's blog about him helping people actually get out of CofS. If true, that would be helpful. And I have several personal friends of mine who said that The Truth Rundown- in which the two Rs played a definite part- was what got them out. I have to give them props for that.

I also have no problem with anyone practicing Scn outside CofS. You know that, Mick. I know you run (cyber-wise), perhaps, with a crowd of people who tend to vilify those who do so, but, ehhhhh...they're wrong. Fear of losing one's bridge is, I truly think, one of the things that keeps people in CofS, although it's certainly not the only thing. There's fear, familial disconnection and other things. But fear of losing one's bridge is a factor for some. It was for me. It was for others I've talked to. It's good for them to know that this is a total non issue. Of course they don't have to do ANY Scn after they leave CofS. But if they want to and feel they must, it's better that this desire they have doesn't keep them in the cult. I have friends in the FZ. They aren't hurting anyone. Getting auditing, doing TRs, wordclearing- away from the cult- those things aren't harmful. What's harmful are the cultic practices and the insane way the cult hurt its members. Shit, members have DIED from neglect or in some cases, possible murder. THAT'S what I want to see addressed- the neglect, the breaking up of families, the horrible treatment of kids, the bankrupting of people, the fair gaming of critics, exes and other "enemies". AFAIK, the two Rs are against those things, too.

Have they done enough to expiate their guilt from what they did do when in? Probably not. They did SO much. But you know what? My Christian friends have a saying. "It's for God to judge". I'm no theist. I'm no Christian but I get their point. We can pound our fists on the ground til we turn BLUE and tantrum away, but this is the real world and the real world is not Utopia. Sometimes we get just half a loaf. Or less.

I remember when I was a teenager, I did what a lot of them tend to do. I liked to whine "It's not faiiiirrrr..." and I'd invariably get told "LIFE isn't fair." I honestly thought that everything in life should be fair and come out perfectly. But we all know that it doesn't. It's like government. This shit I hear at home every two seconds about the eeeevil Liberals and the shit I hear from Liberal friends about the suckass Republicans...I'm fucking sick to death of it. They all suck. And they have some good points. We will be lucky to get a fraction of a loaf. This is how life is. Marty and Mike are like that.

NeverMe
24th October 2010, 10:04 PM
.... SNIP
In my opinion there is more than enough evidence to prosecute Miscavige and the organization criminally.
AND Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun along with them? Is it a Mexican standoff?

Mexican standoff def: -

A Mexican standoff is a slang term defined as a stalemate or impasse, a confrontations that neither side can foreseeably win. The term is most often used in lieu of 'stalemate' when the confrontational situation is exceptionally dangerous for all parties involved.

n : a situation in which no one can emerge as a clear winner.

.... SNIP

Mike and Marty have the ability to corroborate all of this and hopefully will do so at the appropriate time.
When will that be? I don't think it's gonna happen because they'll take themselves down right along with DM and the church. I think they're afraid. I really do.

.... SNIP

Rathbun knows the legal system better than most lawyers and appears to be taking very calculated action.
Maybe that's exactly why he's not moving forward, just making threats. He knows what they have on him as well. You can bet money they've got Mike and Marty's every move documented (inside and outside the church) with video and audio, whenever possible along with people lined up ready and willing to commit perjury and sign affidavits. And I agree with the "calculated action" part of your post. Marty's postings over on his blog seem very "calculated" to me, serving a twofold purpose. He's gaining a following for himself (I'm not the first to say this), designed to win over as many people as he can AND angering DM and his supporters at the same time. It's working extremely well, so far! Some of his blog posts are taunts, aren't they or straight out threats? Marty and Mike were DM's right hand men at one time. I bet they know exactly which buttons to push. Maybe they're hoping DM's famous temper will cause him to totally freakin' lose it. They've mentioned several times about his deterioration, loss of control and erratic behavior. Maybe if he's pushed, pushed, pushed enough, he'll ruin things for himself?? Just my theory......

Zinjifar
24th October 2010, 10:21 PM
I have seen no reason to believe that Marty Rathbun actually wants to say anything that might disrupt the continued existence of the Scientology Organization, whether it's run by David Miscavige or other.

Still, I'm willing to grant that that may not be entirely self-serving. Yes; to expose the crimes committed in the name of the 'Church' would certainly endanger him too, but, it wouldn't surprise me to find that his actual motivation was to prevent damage to both the 'Church' he's declared *dead* and the reputation of the 'philosophy' called Scientology, which, if the crimes were exposed, would look pretty sleazy, malicious and corrupt.

Kind of like it does anyway.

Marty as a *still* true believer? It could happen.

Zinj

Ogsonofgroo
25th October 2010, 07:46 AM
I have seen no reason to believe that Marty Rathbun actually wants to say anything that might disrupt the continued existence of the Scientology Organization, whether it's run by David Miscavige or other.

Still, I'm willing to grant that that may not be entirely self-serving. Yes; to expose the crimes committed in the name of the 'Church' would certainly endanger him too, but, it wouldn't surprise me to find that his actual motivation was to prevent damage to both the 'Church' he's declared *dead* and the reputation of the 'philosophy' called Scientology, which, if the crimes were exposed, would look pretty sleazy, malicious and corrupt.

Kind of like it does anyway.

Marty as a *still* true believer? It could happen.

Zinj

Oh yes!

My opinion right from the git-go of the departure of the M's was that it became a tangled triangle of follow-the-back-stabbers, no one wants to say too much because it may bring out implications of complacency etc.. Many many skeletons in the closets.
Do any of them really believe Lron's gibberish? I am highly doubtful.
It's a con job and they all want a piece of it imho.
What they believe is that they can get 'theirs' independantly, somehow, some way. The only part of the 'tech' that worked was being able to suck in people, but as an indy you have to be extra believable in order to secure an income, and they are all after that.
:omg::omg::omg:

LongTimeGone
25th October 2010, 07:58 AM
Would the Allies or Jewish people in WWII have forgiven Hitler and taken him into their hearts if he had blown the Nazi party and spoken out about its atrocities?

D.

Ogsonofgroo
25th October 2010, 08:05 AM
Would the Allies or Jewish people in WWII have forgiven Hitler and taken him into their hearts if he had blown the Nazi party and spoken out about its atrocities?

D.


OMG, please, you lose four points for Godwin-ing :duh:


:)

LongTimeGone
25th October 2010, 08:09 AM
OMG, please, you lose four points for Godwin-ing :duh:


:)

Hahahahahahaha.
My favourite Law.
I'm always happy to prove it.
:happydance:
D.

Zinjifar
25th October 2010, 08:12 AM
OMG, please, you lose four points for Godwin-ing :duh:


:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Dk-62l0fs

Godwin Pig :)

Zinj

Ogsonofgroo
25th October 2010, 09:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Dk-62l0fs

Godwin Pig :)

Zinj

OMG~ Pig! Man its been years since I've heard this, nice!

:party::mudkip::booze::cake::bong::dancer::dancer: :party:

Voltaire's Child
25th October 2010, 07:24 PM
There are also ex criminals who actually stop being criminals. "Going straight", etc.

Auditor's Toad
25th October 2010, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by skydog
"Mike and Marty have the ability to corroborate all of this and hopefully will do so at the appropriate time. "


"When will that be? I don't think it's gonna happen because they'll take themselves down right along with DM and the church. I think they're afraid. I really do."

Baloney. Can't buy that. They could ask for an immunity deal.

Zinjifar
25th October 2010, 07:46 PM
Baloney. Can't buy that. They could ask for an immunity deal.

Not if the actual intention is to rescue Scientology (corporate). One pin-prick and it's all over. One body; one prosecution; one actual investigation. They know that; they won't.

Zinj

Auditor's Toad
25th October 2010, 07:55 PM
"Do you agree that the 'Church' of Scientology commits a serial litany of crime? "

Absolutely. Let me put it this way : Over a longish period of time the ' church of scientology' as a legal entity has knowingly been in violation of the laws of the land in this country and others.

And more than Mike and Marty have knowledge of this activity. It goes back a long way.

Thus far any would be whistle blower has been ruthlessly attacked or bought off...more mob like than church like.

Larry Wollersheim put a serious dent in their "law suit proof" status.

More will follow. Please keep up the pressure. It is working !

Mick Wenlock
25th October 2010, 08:27 PM
There are some accounts on Marty's blog about him helping people actually get out of CofS. If true, that would be helpful. And I have several personal friends of mine who said that The Truth Rundown- in which the two Rs played a definite part- was what got them out. I have to give them props for that.


How many of your friends left the cofs because of the series?



I also have no problem with anyone practicing Scn outside CofS. You know that, Mick. I know you run (cyber-wise), perhaps, with a crowd of people who tend to vilify those who do so, but, ehhhhh...they're wrong. Fear of losing one's bridge is, I truly think, one of the things that keeps people in CofS, although it's certainly not the only thing. There's fear, familial disconnection and other things. But fear of losing one's bridge is a factor for some. It was for me. It was for others I've talked to. It's good for them to know that this is a total non issue.


Well no - in this case I am correct and it is you and the FZ who are wrong. About as wrong as it is possible to get.

Scientology is NOT harmless. It is manipulative and controlling and hurts people.

It leads nowhere of course - proven by the simple fact that there has never been one product out of it in over 50 years of trying.

So it is merely a system of giving people the temporary illusion of getting somewhere when in fact it is merely about controlling them and manipulating them for the benefit of the practitioner.

The more closely a person tries to follow Hubbards scientology the worse the manipulation and the damage. The more the person just concentrates on helping people and leaving Hubbard behind - the better it gets.

Let me repeat something that you and I both know Claire - as do most people on this board - SCIENTOLOGY DOES NOT GET THE RESULTS THAT HUBBARD CLAIMED IT DID. It does not achieve the goals of Clear and OT. It never has.

Am I right or wrong about that? If you know of any OT or Clear - wow, name them.

Such a simple fact is obvious to anyone who just looks at Scientology.

So keeping the con going outside of the organization is merely to try to manipulate the already manipulated.

I mean - jeezus christ look at the idiotic posting by Morehead on Marty's blog. That is one seriously fucked up person. Do you see Marty or Mike leading him out of the padded room? I sure as hell do not.

Sorry Claire Scientology is not harmless - it comes with a price - and for some people a very heavy price.



Of course they don't have to do ANY Scn after they leave CofS. But if they want to and feel they must, it's better that this desire they have doesn't keep them in the cult. I have friends in the FZ. They aren't hurting anyone. Getting auditing, doing TRs, wordclearing- away from the cult- those things aren't harmful.


Yes they are harmful. You agree that they have never produced one clear or one OT - right? Their only purpose is to keep the "pre-clear" moving on a path to an unattainable goal.

Why keep n encouraging someone to do it? Because it feels good? The rationale of all drug dealers.




What's harmful are the cultic practices and the insane way the cult hurt its members. Shit, members have DIED from neglect or in some cases, possible murder. THAT'S what I want to see addressed- the neglect, the breaking up of families, the horrible treatment of kids, the bankrupting of people, the fair gaming of critics, exes and other "enemies". AFAIK, the two Rs are against those things, too.


Thy are? In what way have they shown that? That theyhave said so? After decades of supporting and enforcing it - the fact they said something is enough for you? Well good luck with that one.

If they are so against it where are the complaints and affidavits? Oh, wait - they are waiting for their exclusives to come through?



Have they done enough to expiate their guilt from what they did do when in? Probably not. They did SO much. But you know what? My Christian friends have a saying. "It's for God to judge". I'm no theist. I'm no Christian but I get their point. We can pound our fists on the ground til we turn BLUE and tantrum away, but this is the real world and the real world is not Utopia. Sometimes we get just half a loaf. Or less.


I have re-read this paragraph three times and it still does not make any sense at all. It is probably one of the best, or worst, concatenations of unconnected items I have seen in quite a while. Could you take a breath and reword it so I can get your point?

Expiate their guilt? I don't give a fuck about that. What I care about is them rescuing the same people they dumped in the shitter. This is not some pie in the sky exercise in some christian claptrap. They fucked people over and the people they did it to - ARE STILL IN IT.

They need to get them out. They need to concentrate on that and when they have done that they can go on and do whatever else they feel like doing.



I remember when I was a teenager, I did what a lot of them tend to do. I liked to whine "It's not faiiiirrrr..." and I'd invariably get told "LIFE isn't fair." I honestly thought that everything in life should be fair and come out perfectly. But we all know that it doesn't. It's like government. This shit I hear at home every two seconds about the eeeevil Liberals and the shit I hear from Liberal friends about the suckass Republicans...I'm fucking sick to death of it. They all suck. And they have some good points. We will be lucky to get a fraction of a loaf. This is how life is. Marty and Mike are like that.

That may or may not be correct. But there are simple facts - Scientology does not work, it does not do what it says it does, following it leads nowhere, encouraging others to follow it is to lead them nowhere. Helping Miscavige to fuck people over was not a good idea and helping him hurt people was even less of a good idea than that. If these two excuses for people wish to get anything other than vilification then they need to get their asses in gear and help those that they hurt.

Period.

Until they do that then they are still part of the whole thing.

Zinjifar
25th October 2010, 09:08 PM
Expiate their guilt? I don't give a fuck about that.

It's rare that I feel 100% in agreement with anyone :)

This is the exception. I don't care about their 'guilt' and, I couldn't care less about their spiritual salvation. If Marty and Mike (as cases in point) chose to retire and squirm away from the light on their crimes, it wouldn't matter to me. They *could* stop the abuses of Scientology within weeks; if they chose to. But, that they don't isn't my bone of contention.

What bothers me is that they're *publicly* and pro-actively trying to salvage the monster. With lies; because nothing else could work.

Scientology is an abomination; the only way to sell it is to lie about it.

Zinj

Voltaire's Child
25th October 2010, 10:38 PM
How many of your friends left the cofs because of the series?

I have about 7 of them who left within the past year because of the series.


Well no - in this case I am correct and it is you and the FZ who are wrong. About as wrong as it is possible to get.

The FZ and I? I was unaware that I could be lumped in with the entire FZ.


Scientology is NOT harmless. It is manipulative and controlling and hurts people.

It can be. It certainly is in CofS. And I'm sure there are some FZ practices that have gone that way. But I don't think any ology lacks the potential to be benign. I also don't think any ology lacks the potential to be malign.


It leads nowhere of course - proven by the simple fact that there has never been one product out of it in over 50 years of trying.

Depends on what one means by "product".



So it is merely a system of giving people the temporary illusion of getting somewhere when in fact it is merely about controlling them and manipulating them for the benefit of the practitioner.

I've had people allege that they had some wonderful experiences in Scn. And maybe they did. It is, of course, hearsay and anecdotal. But if they did, they did. But you know what's interesting? A number of those people said that they felt that other individuals could attain and HAD attained just as much, if not more, in other methodologys. IOW, they didn't think Scn had a monopoly on the truth or any worthwhile methods, and these were proponents of Scn- albeit indie Scn. But then again, they are capable of being tolerant of and seeing the value in other belief systems. :p


The more closely a person tries to follow Hubbards scientology the worse the manipulation and the damage. The more the person just concentrates on helping people and leaving Hubbard behind - the better it gets.

'Pends on if someone's around to do the manipulating. In the cult, there certainly is.



Let me repeat something that you and I both know Claire - as do most people on this board - SCIENTOLOGY DOES NOT GET THE RESULTS THAT HUBBARD CLAIMED IT DID. It does not achieve the goals of Clear and OT. It never has.

Surely.



Am I right or wrong about that? If you know of any OT or Clear - wow, name them.

I've known a number of them but none of them had the purported abilities 100% of the time and it certainly was NOT as advertised.


Such a simple fact is obvious to anyone who just looks at Scientology.

So keeping the con going outside of the organization is merely to try to manipulate the already manipulated.

'Pends on the degree. Everything's a matter of degree. I feel much the same way about Xtianitiy- another religion I ditched.



I mean - jeezus christ look at the idiotic posting by Morehead on Marty's blog. That is one seriously fucked up person. Do you see Marty or Mike leading him out of the padded room? I sure as hell do not.

I think it's great when Scn'ists are fucked up. It's very nice for them to have the option. That's what he's doing at this point on his life. Being fucked up. Sometimes a person has to work through that. Hope he's having fun with it.



Sorry Claire Scientology is not harmless - it comes with a price - and for some people a very heavy price.

Sure does.

Things can be various ways at different times.

To quote a comedian I once read: "Sex is only dirty if you're doing it right"...though others have said it's only dirty if you're doing it wrong. IOW, these things are what we- and others- make of them.



Yes they are harmful. You agree that they have never produced one clear or one OT - right?

Mmmm..sorta kinda.


Their only purpose is to keep the "pre-clear" moving on a path to an unattainable goal.

I know a number of people who've (Believed that they) attained things in Scn and had unusual and special circumstances. Again, my observation is that it's not to the degree alleged/proferred, but in the minds of some, some things did happen. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. My guess is that it's somewhere in between.



Why keep n encouraging someone to do it? Because it feels good? The rationale of all drug dealers.

Oh (Laughing) I'd never encourage anyone to do Scn. I haven't in years. I only encourage them to choose what they want to believe and that I support that.



Thy are? In what way have they shown that? That theyhave said so? After decades of supporting and enforcing it - the fact they said something is enough for you? Well good luck with that one.

They've managed to piss DM off (not a difficult feat) in decrying those things. The Truth Rundown, comments on Marty's blog, and people they have reached out to (or claimed they did) who were trying to leave. Maybe it's enough, maybe it's nowhere near enough. It's something they're going to have to work out and if you ask me, they deserve every counter argument and bit of skepticism they get. Those things need to be said, those questions need to be asked- which they are. So that's good.


If they are so against it where are the complaints and affidavits? Oh, wait - they are waiting for their exclusives to come through?

I didn't say they'd done enough. I have no idea. I have ZERO emotional investment in the two Rs. Some of my friends in the critic's scene evidently do have such an investment. Ok. Enjoy it. There are plenty of people who are against Scn, CofS, the nuking of whales- what have you- who haven't filed complaints and affidavits, even some who were in a position to do so.

Saying that not filing those things is an indication of being against the underlying issues is a logical fallacy. One can care about something and not do as much as one could or should do. To me, it's two issues. 1) Do they care/are they against it? (It being CofS , DM and all the abuses, etc)

2) If they do, are they doing enough against it?

1) can be present without 2) Now why would that be? Laziness? Maybe. Afraid of being sued? (My own personal speculation). Maybe. Kind of looking at some of it but not the entirety? Maybe.

It is my personal opinion and only my personal opinion (which, with 4 bux will getcha a Starbucks' latte) that if they didn't care, they'd just quietly be out of CofS. No blogging, no Truth Rundown, no nothing. Could I be wrong? Of course I can. It does happen. Sometimes.




I have re-read this paragraph three times and it still does not make any sense at all. It is probably one of the best, or worst, concatenations of unconnected items I have seen in quite a while. Could you take a breath and reword it so I can get your point?

Maybe you should try hooked on phonics since you no longer are interested in study tech. Plus a book on netiquette and maybe on one manners... just sayin'. :p :D :coolwink:

Be that as it may, I'm saying that we can try to judge but in the end, those judgments won't pan out. We are not that person. And since we aren't some mythical big daddy God, they (the judgments we make) never will. It's an imperfect world and we can try and try to assess situations and make judgments about what others should do but we almost never have all the facts. The reason for this is, IMO, because we are NOT those people.

I'm not so down with objective truth and What Should Essie ExScientologist or Peter Politician be doing. I don't like arbitraries. Used to love them. Particularly when I was 15.



Expiate their guilt? I don't give a fuck about that. What I care about is them rescuing the same people they dumped in the shitter.


If they truly did that, it would expiate their guilt, or at least it would in the minds of quite a few people. But what THEY think they should do and what you or I or anyone else thinks they should do are probably very different things. Maybe ALL of us are FOS on that. Wouldn't that be funny?


This is not some pie in the sky exercise in some christian claptrap. They fucked people over and the people they did it to - ARE STILL IN IT.

Maybe they can never make up for what they did. Maybe they should give up. Maybe they can. My guess is that even if they increased their efforts tenfold, filed suits and everything, it might still not please all the people all the time. I hope they do more than they have but frankly, I'm not optimistic. As I said, it's my speculation that they're afraid of getting sued.


They need to get them out. They need to concentrate on that and when they have done that they can go on and do whatever else they feel like doing.

Yes, they should. But even if they aren't doing enough, I'd like to acknowledge what they have done. I'm not going to wait til some mythical goal is reached. Particularly since I'm so pessimistic about said goal being reached, yanno.



That may or may not be correct. But there are simple facts - Scientology does not work, it does not do what it says it does, following it leads nowhere, encouraging others to follow it is to lead them nowhere. Helping Miscavige to fuck people over was not a good idea and helping him hurt people was even less of a good idea than that. If these two excuses for people wish to get anything other than vilification then they need to get their asses in gear and help those that they hurt.

Period.

Until they do that then they are still part of the whole thing.

As always, your opinions have been stated beautifully and with great vim. You've made your case, I've enjoyed reading your post, and I've enjoyed trying your viewpoint on for size. But since I'm not a one size fits all kinda gal, I'm only going to keep parts of it. But I thank you for the wonderful gift.