Gurdjieff and other antecedents of Scientology

[Veda]

About Gurdjieff. Sound familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z23tl6l_AB8

Link below includes -

"The method of Science. The Aim of religion." ('Equinox' cover) Early 1900s.

Antecedent of Scientology's "Route 1" (Amongst other things.) Some processes from 1911.

"On the union of psychotherapy and spiritual exploration." Israel Regardie, 1937.

The 'Sole Source Myth' thread.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=444320&postcount=58

[Hatshepsut]

from one of your provided links above Veda


Liber
Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia
sub Figura DXXXVI



*.
Within His skull exist daily thirteen thousand myriads of Worlds, which draw their existence from Him, and by Him are upheld. ? I.R.Q. iii. 43.
0.
Let the Practicus study the textbooks of astronomy, travel, if need be, to a land where the sun and stars are visible, and observe the heavens with the best telescopes to which he may have access. Let him commit to memory the principal facts, and (at least roughly) the figures of the science.
1.
Now, since these figures will leave no direct impression with any precision upon his mind, let him adopt this practice A.

A. Let the practicus be seated before a bare square table, and let an unknown number of small similar objects be thrown by his chela from time to time upon the table, and by that chela be hastily gathered up.
Let the Practicus declare at the glance, and the chela confirm by his count, the number of such objects.
The practice should be for a quarter of an hour thrice daily. The maximum number of objects should at first be seven. This maximum should increase by one at each practice, provided that not a single mistake is made by the Practicus in appreciating the number thrown.


I had noticed this before last year following down your links. Ron's descriptions of how to run a process were often worded in Crowlean pentameter. It was obvious how deeply he was affected with the study of how to make himself connect with or be the higher 'cause' using these methods

[Hatshepsut]

from another link by the OP


essays on scientology

Hubbard and the Occult
Jon Atack



...snip
Hubbard and the Occult

I stand before you having been accused in print by L. Ron Hubbard's followers of having an avid interest in black magic. I would like to put firmly on record that whatever interest I have is related entirely to achieving a better understanding of the creator of Dianetics and Scientology. Hubbard's followers have the right to be made aware that he had not only an avid interest, but that he was also a practitioner of black magic. Today I shall discuss these matters in depth, but I shall not repeat all of the proofs which already exist in my book A Piece of Blue Sky (001).snip...

Last year I noticed that Captain Bill Robertson had made poetic reference to the idea that this solar system was under a 'spell'. He wrote a poem conveying the idea that it was his purpose to free mankind from this black magic spell.

I thought about that. I never figured CBR to be of that bent. Then I spotted too many correllaries where this outter space activity came to meet the idea of magic.
I looked at the sessions that Urquhart had given me and how he chooses to audit and what he believes. What David Mayo believed. These guys are getting at the belief or spell the being has become totally enchanted by.
To believe you are a human being only is a spell that breaks upon leaving the body. To believe that you are contained in universe and can't move is a spell. To have several beings in a cluster believe they must hold you in is a spell. For you yourself to believe you belong to the cult of earth humans is a spell. The life moving thru the plants and animal kingdoms are run by an enchantment of sorts.

LRH was a spell breaker and a maker. Its that part that leaves a distaste. If there is any truth to the idea that the mortar that holds universes together is neutral in its base form, then possibly such a commonly held idea has lead many into the depths of magic.

[Hatshepsut]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PA-eS5k90Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6sLKLiOnMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_8ez9DVyxU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcTpDu1D4A


Bye

[Leon]

from another link by the OP




Last year I noticed that Captain Bill Robertson had made poetic reference to the idea that this solar system was under a 'spell'. He wrote a poem conveying the idea that it was his purpose to free mankind from this black magic spell.

I thought about that. I never figured CBR to be of that bent. Then I spotted too many correllaries where this outter space activity came to meet the idea of magic.
I looked at the sessions that Urquhart had given me and how he chooses to audit and what he believes. What David Mayo believed. These guys are getting at the belief or spell the being has become totally enchanted by.
To believe you are a human being only is a spell that breaks upon leaving the body. To believe that you are contained in universe and can't move is a spell. To have several beings in a cluster believe they must hold you in is a spell. For you yourself to believe you belong to the cult of earth humans is a spell. The life moving thru the plants and animal kingdoms are run by an enchantment of sorts.

LRH was a spell breaker and a maker. Its that part that leaves a distaste. If there is any truth to the idea that the mortar that holds universes together is neutral in its base form, then possibly such a commonly held idea has lead many into the depths of magic.



Good one, Hatsy! Really, a good post. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Leon]

A well known property developer here in Christchurch claims to be Gurdjieff reincarnate. He is a follower of Johnny Ultimate (google him) who broke with Scio back in the early 70's and set up his own practice here. They follow many of Gurdjieff's teachings mixed with bits of Scio mixed with Johnny's own stuff.

I audited some of their members here a few years ago. Then they broke off with me. I suspect it was because I made it known that the "work until you feel good about it and then work even harder" formula seems to me to be a formula for slavery. And these guys were ALL thoroughly enslaved. Still are probably.

[Hatshepsut]

Thanks Leon.

I'm enjoying this topic that Veda put on here. But the carriage is without a driver and the horses are going to run where they will.

[Ogsonofgroo]

Within and without you.

[Terril park]

PRINCIPLES OF SCIENTOLOGY

The fate of any piece of knowledge man has ever been able to learn about himself, his society or this universe has [been to] sooner or later become subservient to some special interest with a curve on it to make more slaves. And this is one time when as long as I’ve got words in my mouth and breath in my thetan - this is one time that curve isn’t going to happen. And that’s all I want your help in. We want to make sure that what we know never comes to serve some special interest for the subjugation of man.

All Dianetics and Scientology attempts to do is to undo the magic spell which has made people less than they want to be. And to do that it requires that some truth be known. And that the central and principal truths of man be know, merely as truths - not as pitches and curves to serve some different reason or purpose. And that information is its own best protector. If it is itself, if it is what is known, if it is what has been learned, then it undoes its own spells. And the only possible excuse we have for training anybody, for processing anybody is that Dianetics and Scientology will undo Dianetics and Scientology. And that’s the first time known in the history of man that a subject, if it ever curved down, could also go up - that a subject undid itself. And that would be true knowledge.

We must never let what we know get into a state whereby it itself is a tremendous numbers of 'now-I’m-supposed-tos.'

L.Ron Hubbard, c59118c, Final Lecture

[Terril park]

Lots of interesting data on the links. Here is something from an early Dianeticist I hadn't read before.


"Now, I must backtrack a bit. "Our" HDA was a Medicolegal Expert for the State of California; Marshall Trout, PhD, MD, ScD, LID. A brilliant man, a fine legal and medical scholar; he had been a Superior Court Judge at one point, and preferred to be referred to as "Judge Trout," rather than "Doctor Trout." His opinion of the Medical profession was not high. Scientology can really be blamed on him. One afternoon, while in conference with Hubbard, he being one of the two or three people for whom Ron had any real respect, he told Ron as follows; "If you in Dianetics go on curing Asthma and Arthritis and Bursitis and Cancer and Diabetes and all the other psychosomatic ills to which Humans fall prey, the AMA is going to come down on you for practicing medicine without a license, and we'll all end up in jail; the only way you'll be safe is to make a Religion out of it! Also, the primary, stated goal of the Religion can be Spiritual Healing, but not Physical Healing; that can come as a result of your "Worship Sessions," but cannot be a stated purpose. Look into incorporating as a Religion." The rest, as they say, is History."

[Big Farmer]

Lots of interesting data on the links. Here is something from an early Dianeticist I hadn't read before.


"Now, I must backtrack a bit. "Our" HDA was a Medicolegal Expert for the State of California; Marshall Trout, PhD, MD, ScD, LID. A brilliant man, a fine legal and medical scholar; he had been a Superior Court Judge at one point, and preferred to be referred to as "Judge Trout," rather than "Doctor Trout." His opinion of the Medical profession was not high. Scientology can really be blamed on him. One afternoon, while in conference with Hubbard, he being one of the two or three people for whom Ron had any real respect, he told Ron as follows; "If you in Dianetics go on curing Asthma and Arthritis and Bursitis and Cancer and Diabetes and all the other psychosomatic ills to which Humans fall prey, the AMA is going to come down on you for practicing medicine without a license, and we'll all end up in jail; the only way you'll be safe is to make a Religion out of it! Also, the primary, stated goal of the Religion can be Spiritual Healing, but not Physical Healing; that can come as a result of your "Worship Sessions," but cannot be a stated purpose. Look into incorporating as a Religion." The rest, as they say, is History."

What's your own take on this Terril? Do you believe Dianetics can cure Asthma, Arthritis etc. I'd have thought if it proved successful in only a few cases the medical profession would have taken notice and given the subject greater credibility.

[Veda]

I know Hubbard did brag that Dianetics could cure Leukemia, and that Leukemia was caused by an engram with the content, "It will turn your blood to water," or some such, and perhaps you could start another thread on cancer and diabetes being psychosomatic illnesses. However, this thread is (was) about Gurdjieff. :)

Oh well, what's the point - the Hubbard stink has arrived...

In 1946, in his 'Affirmations', L. Ron Hubbard wrote:

"Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write."

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler."

In May 1950, the book, 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health' by L. Ron Hubbard, was published.

In October 1950, Dr. J.A. Winter, who had written the 'Introduction' to 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health', resigned in protest from the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation. He described the ideals presented by Hubbard as "lip service."

Meanwhile, Hubbard was busy writing letters to the FBI describing many of his former Dianetic associates as communists and communist sympathizers.

Hubbard's letters to the FBI would continue for years. In 1955, he wrote that he had received a lucrative secret offer from the KGB to travel to Russia and work for the Russians but had turned it down; he also forwarded a copy of his newly discovered (it was "slipped under the door," etc.) 'Russian Textbook on Psycho-Politics' which happened to mention "Dianetics" several times (as a danger to the advance of Russian communism), and which, oddly enough, contained various Hubbardisms such as "thinkingness."

Hubbard, with perfect TR-L (Training Routine for Lying), told Scientologists that his 'Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics' was a secret Russian document.

Six months earlier, Hubbard had written 'The Manual on Dissemination of Material' which instructed Scientologists to "NEVER PERMIT" (capitalization in original) Scientology to be "talked about contemptuously before a group," and to use the legal system and law suits to harass and, if possible, "ruin utterly."

Four years earlier, Hubbard had written, in 'Science of Survival', of how those low on the "tone scale" (placement on the "scale" being easily determined by the person's reaction to Hubbard, Dianetics and Scientology) should be treated, if efforts to change their minds, through counseling, did not succeed, or they refused counseling. They should be isolated from society or "disposed of quietly and without sorrow."

And with the same theme in mind - disposing of his critics - Hubbard's wrote, in his 1959 'HCO Manual of Justice':

"Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them, one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes. At this instance, there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us. For instance, Dr. Joe Winter [wrote "Introduction' to 'DMSMH' and, later, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' which had an 'Introduction' by Fritz Perls.] He simply realized whet he did and died."

Also, in 1959, L. Ron Hubbard reassured Scientologists of his honorable intentions:


PRINCIPLES OF SCIENTOLOGY

The fate of any piece of knowledge man has ever been able to learn about himself, his society or this universe has [been to] sooner or later become subservient to some special interest with a curve on it to make more slaves. And this is one time when as long as I’ve got words in my mouth and breath in my thetan - this is one time that curve isn’t going to happen. And that’s all I want your help in. We want to make sure that what we know never comes to serve some special interest for the subjugation of man.

All Dianetics and Scientology attempts to do is to undo the magic spell which has made people less than they want to be. And to do that it requires that some truth be known. And that the central and principal truths of man be know, merely as truths - not as pitches and curves to serve some different reason or purpose. And that information is its own best protector. If it is itself, if it is what is known, if it is what has been learned, then it undoes its own spells. And the only possible excuse we have for training anybody, for processing anybody is that Dianetics and Scientology will undo Dianetics and Scientology. And that’s the first time known in the history of man that a subject, if it ever curved down, could also go up - that a subject undid itself. And that would be true knowledge.

We must never let what we know get into a state whereby it itself is a tremendous numbers of 'now-I’m-supposed-tos.'

L. Ron Hubbard, c59118c, Final Lecture

And the Scientologists nodded their heads in appreciative awe at the wisdom of their leader, the compassionate and wise L. Ron Hubbard.

Soon thereafter, Security Checking was introduced, "Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?"

[Terril park]

What's your own take on this Terril? Do you believe Dianetics can cure Asthma, Arthritis etc. I'd have thought if it proved successful in only a few cases the medical profession would have taken notice and given the subject greater credibility.


What's your own take on this Terril? Do you believe Dianetics can cure Asthma, Arthritis etc. I'd have thought if it proved successful in only a few cases the medical profession would have taken notice and given the subject greater credibility.

I've posted quite a few success stories of medical conditions handled by auditing. Only psychosomatic conditions could be so handled IMO. The quote I gave was from this link, and the writer although having quite some disregard for Hubbard had a high regard for dianetics and mentions some
astounding examples of its success.


http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/carto/rxxx.htm


A day or two ago Carmello posted an example. I believe the auditor was
Phil Spickler whose interview was recently posted. Phil was also an old time dianeticist.

"As an example taken from real life: John Brodie in 1970 was quarterback for the San Francisco Forty-Niners. He was thinking that he would have to retire. He had a shoulder that was painful, and it was impairing his game. He went to a friend of mine for Dianetic Counseling. By tracing the feelings and sensations and pains in his shoulder to earlier similar pains etc, John was able to find times when his shoulder was physically injured. Through reliving the incidents of actual injury and playing creative mind games with those incidents, his shoulder ceased to hurt for football games. Instead of retiring, he was voted Most Valuable Player that year. My friend ended up for the next several seasons auditing many , if not most, of the Niners."

[Terril park]

I know Hubbard did brag that Dianetics could cure Leukemia, and that Leukemia was caused by an engram with the content, "It will turn your blood to water," or some such, and perhaps you could start another thread on cancer and diabetes being psychosomatic illnesses, this thread is (was) about Gurdjieff. :)

Oh well, what's the point - the Hubbard stink has arrived...




Don't be so grumpy!

Had several hours of reading from your links and links from links.

Liked reading this again.

http://www.etarot.info/naples-arrangement

[Big Farmer]

I've posted quite a few success stories of medical conditions handled by auditing. Only psychosomatic conditions could be so handled IMO. The quote I gave was from this link, and the writer although having quite some disregard for Hubbard had a high regard for dianetics and mentions some
astounding examples of its success.

<snipped>


Thanks for your reply Terril. I have suffered from Arthritis for thirty years. Tried several alternative treatments throughout this period with invariably poor results. One particular treatment offered by a much renowned and touted alternative practioner was equally unsuccessful. On each visit to this chap, I was certain to encounter in his waiting room, patients who stated their previous successful experiences with his methods. However, each of these successes seemed to be from people who were not suffering from a chronic illness/disease. I've come across other people with similarly long term conditions to myself and their experiences with these alternative treatments are as disappointing as my own.

This lack of results and old age have made me extremely cynical when it comes to alternative treatments and therefore I won't be trying Dianetics anytime soon. If the "tech" worked and had received widespread acclaim and respectability I would then give it a chance.

[Commander Birdsong]

G.I.
Gurdjief's organization The Institute for the Development of the Harmonious Human Being is listed as a "Suppressive Group."

Figures.

His best known student was Peter Ouspensky. "The Master Game" by his best known student, Robert S. DeRopp is most highly recommended.

[Veda]

Dianetics is essentially abreaction therapy (unearthing repressed pain and painful emotion). Using abreaction to address an old sports injury is different than using it to address a medical condition that arose without injury. One could still experiment with it, if you could find someone who'd run "Dianetics," or Dianetic-like procedures. There's also "creative processing," which has to do with "mocking up" the condition in different locations, creating it in abundance, and placing it in others (usually outdoors) or even in objects. (Don't worry, they won't get arthritis.) However, usually only "light" difficulties respond to such handlings.

As I recall, 'Union Station' ('Other People') is the process 'R2-46' in 'The Creation of Human Ability'. It's run outdoors in large areas with lots of people standing around. I've used it a number of times.

The last time was in an airport, on a somewhat distressed young woman who couldn't stop hiccuping - waiting in line in front of me. I established contact, by acknowledging her condition (which was obvious as she was 3 feet from me), by saying - in an upbeat and non-ridiculing way - "hiccups," to which she nodded her head. I then added, "Try this," and before she could say, "no," had her "Have that person (person about fifty feet away in another part of the airport) have the hiccups. (She understood that that only meant imagine that they had the hiccups, and proceeded). I had her "give the hiccups" to about a dozen people and the hiccups disappeared. She had no idea that I had run her on an old process from 1950s Scientology, and I didn't tell her, but I could have, and she might be on the Road to Xenu right now, and, if I were still a member of Scientology, I could even be collecting an "FSM" (Field Staff Member) commission.

Hubbard's stuff (and others' stuff with his name substituted) from the 1950s is not all crazy, and has its flashes of brilliance. A lot of people who've ended up on the Scientological hamster wheel have, initially, become enchanted with material of this sort.

Best wishes.




-snip-

This lack of results and old age have made me extremely cynical when it comes to alternative treatments and therefore I won't be trying Dianetics anytime soon. If the "tech" worked and had received widespread acclaim and respectability I would then give it a chance.

[Veda]

G.I.
Gurdjief's organization The Institute for the Development of the Harmonious Human Being is listed as a "Suppressive Group."

Figures.

His best known student was Peter Ouspensky. "The Master Game" by his best known student, Robert S. DeRopp is most highly recommended.

Hey Commander Birdsong. Just curious - Am I on your ignore list? If so, I'll stop responding to your posts. The last response had to do with DeRopp's 'Master Game', and, as with other recent posts, seems to have been ignored.

Unless, I hear from you, I'll assume I'm on your ignore list.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=480636&postcount=78

Just in case you're reading this, I can tell you that 'The Fourth Way' - which predates Scn by decades - had a file in the NYC Guardian's Office file cabinet as a "squirrel group." Apparently they had been running a comm course without authorization.

[Big Farmer]

Best wishes.

<snipped>


Thanks for your concern and interesting reply..and sorry for the thread derailment:)

[Terril park]

Dianetics is essentially abreaction therapy (unearthing repressed pain and painful emotion). Using abreaction to address an old sports injury is different than using it to address a medical condition that arose without injury.
snip

Not really. The dianetic technique would be the same. A medical condition
that was psychosomatic in origen could potentially be handled.

Its possible that John Brodies problems were in fact osteo arthritis. This
can often affect joints where there has been trauma, and football players definitely are susceptible!

There are many types of arthritis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthritis

And probably many factors are involved. How well dianetics addresses
these problems I don't know, don't even know anyone who's tried. Its worth noting that especially when older the body can have changed, and that may result in a condition that can't be altered. Bodies get old and wear out.
I know I have one. :)

However physical changes using dianetics are fairly well substantiated.
When one is not old the body potentially has remarkable powers to correct and heal.

[LongTimeGone]

I have, for a long time, been interested in Jung. He spoke of exteriorization, although he meant Psychokinesis rather than an out of body experience. He used the word individuation but it had positive connotations and he mentioned that he had entities that shared his inner world (The Red Book). This was well before Hubbard appeared on the scene although he too was apparently quite mad. D.