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Gottabrain
17th January 2011, 10:28 PM
Who was/is Dr. Gene Denk, who was Hubbard's personal physician? What's his story?

I knew him and saw him personally several times as a doctor in the later 70s and early 80s at Shaw Health Center on Fountain Avenue in LA, down the street from the complex.

He was a different man before he was recruited to work for Hubbard personally. He was once a good doctor, but he sold out or lost the plot.

In one of my visits to him around the late 70s, I had a cyst in a fallopian tube. He took a medical sample, analyzed it on the spot, figured out the composition of the cyst and put me on antibiotics that healed it. Better than surgery and for that time, it was brilliant.

In later visits by very sick staff at AOLA when I was SSO (I sent them to the doctor first, then fought to get the bills paid), his use of medicine deteriorated. Staff received less antibiotics and more vitamin B1 or B12 shots. They were commonly told they had "adrenal exhaustion" but few blood tests were ever performed to confirm this.

So I stopped sending staff to him or to the several other Scn doctors in LA who mirrored whatever Denk did, like Dr Meghan Shields (who hardly ever did anything else besides vitamin shots). Hell, if all they were willing to do was prescribe vitamins and I was fighting and using up my tiny allocations and risking being personally billed for unauthorized staff medical expenses to send them there just for this bullshit, why not just buy the vitamins for the staff?

Then Dr Denk disappeared. He went "over the rainbow" to become L Ron's personal physician and work on Scientology projects.

And he gave medical approval for some really abominable things. Like the Running Program. It was a nightmare tested out on the PAC RPF and the whole concept of running in circles for hours around a pole as psychological therapy was insane. Lots of people got very sick doing it.

If that weren't enough, he completely sold his integrity when he was L Ron's physician by refusing to declare him mentally incompetent in his last months/year(s), instead becoming part of a team to disguise and hide his condition. Denk should have put Hubbard in the hands of his family and a proper medical facility - notably, Diana and/or Susan, like any other old man who had lost the plot and was incapable of making rational decisions anymore. Denk violated his oaths and integrity as a physician many times - by refusing to report Hubbard's condition or the fact that a man in this condition was being secretly smuggled around in isolation and kept in a drugged state. Instead, he supplied Hubbard with cocktails of drugs, perhaps administering them personally, and Hubbard signed a revised will in this condition and insane state which should never have been valid. And the DM crim team took over.

After I was out of Scn and the SO in 87, I periodically saw Dr. Denk in the area. Unlike the late 70s or early 80s, he had an expensive car, he dressed flashy, he'd had plastic surgery on his face and a fake tan. He appeared to be doing very well financially from his work with(on?) Hubbard. And though he was still listed as a doctor at Shaw Health Center, he rarely came by, and to my knowledge, stopped seeing patients personally. He appeared to be doing very well financially.

Another who sold his integrity for Scientology.

Lurker5
17th January 2011, 10:44 PM
:bump2:

:thumbsup:

Gottabrain
17th January 2011, 10:44 PM
Report on Drs Gene Denk & Megan Shields by Energy Traveler:

"Dr. Megan Shields and her colleague, Dr. Gene Denk, know more about the inner criminal activity of senior Scientology management than just about anyone.

Quite a while ago, Dr. Denk supervised the Purification program on Carrie Alkins. During the Purif, Carrie, a juvenile diabetic, developed a detached retina and, although she had several eye surgeries, wound up legally blind. She has remained so ever since.

Carrie wrote up a bunch of knowledge reports at the time in an effort to not only get some sort of apology and restitution from Shaw Health Center, but also to ensure that other diabetics were not given massive dosages of niacin, which could bring on retinal bleeding and possibly a detached retina which could result in blindness.

Regular doctors routinely warn diabetics against taking massive dosages of niacin for this reason.

Dr. Denk and Dr. Shields circled the wagons, of course, and let Carrie and her husband know that if she pushed the point she might get kicked out of the Church. Scientology doctors tend to cover for each other and also for the Church. They fail to report child abuse, sexual harassment, spousal abuse, and any sort of medical negligence that has happened ROUTINELY over the years within the Sea Org.

When I was on staff at ASHO and at AO I used to do all the staff FESing (review of counseling folders). This is what I observed. A lot of the staff members would get sick, go to the Shaw Health Center and get sub-optimum care there. Serious illnesses would often be overlooked resulting in extremely serious medical and sometimes fatal consequences. Many times I saw staff members who went to Shaw Health Center and the doctors prescribed routine antibiotics rather than ordering the medical exams that would be normally ordered by any competent physician. As a result of that, many times the staff members ended up going to the hospital in late stages of cancer when the cancer was too advanced to be operable. Because the Sea Org doesn't pay for health insurance for its staff members it becomes a very serious problem when they get a disease.

Also, seriously depressed or mentally ill people NEVER get referred by the doctors at Shaw Health Center for any type of treatment. For instance, there was a NOTS auditor in the early 1980s who was a staff member at AOLA who was 5'6" tall and weighed less than 90 lbs. She was completely anorexic. She was very seriously ill. Shaw Health Center attempted to handle her with intravenous vitamins. They didn't inform her family or take the measures that were really needed to save her life...."

See rest of write up at http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/megan-shields-cult-criminality.htm

Lurker5
17th January 2011, 10:53 PM
Holy crappola - it never ceases to astonish me, the criminal behavior of the co$ that never goes 'public'. Would the USofA do anything even if it did?

??????? Truly, I am not sure. :confused2:

Gottabrain
17th January 2011, 10:57 PM
Lurker, Carrie Alkins and other victims could have reported these quack doctors and sued and gotten their licenses revoked.

I knew Carrie Alkins - she was one sweet woman. And I know of the pervert referred to (though I don't recall the name) that had been a nanny at the Child Estates Org. There were also rapes. One who was raped at the complex in the 80s was Sally ---? She told me about it. She didn't want to do a police report. I was 18 at the time, so didn't argue.

Every doctor is required to report spousal and child abuse. These crook doctors, Denk and Shields, got away with this and so much else simply because nobody reported it to the police.

Lurker5
17th January 2011, 11:03 PM
Disgusting violation and betrayal of the hippocratic oath - and then living a wealthy life style - YEP - sold their souls - for MONEY. Lowest of the low. Snakes in the grass, slime, trash, not worth pissing on if on fire - disgusting low-life beings - I won't even call them human . . . :grouch: :omg:

guanoloco
17th January 2011, 11:13 PM
Gottabrain,

I think I remember reading one time a blatantly false statement from Tommy Davis that the C of S provides health, dental, clothing and boarding of its staff.

Do you or anybody recall that?

I think it was fairly recently and the context of the statement was how could Scientology justify paying $20/week to its Sea Org staff.

Ring a bell anyone?

Gottabrain
17th January 2011, 11:21 PM
Gottabrain,

I think I remember reading one time a blatantly false statement from Tommy Davis that the C of S provides health, dental, clothing and boarding of its staff.

Do you or anybody recall that?

I think it was fairly recently and the context of the statement was how could Scientology justify paying $20/week to its Sea Org staff.

Ring a bell anyone?

Guano, I haven't personally seen that claim by Davis.

These cover-ups by certified Scientology doctors are one big reason WHY Scn gets away with its false Purif stats and other claims. There have been plenty of deaths and other incidents of harmful damage. This is why child molestors, wife beaters and rapists in Scn get away with this stuff.

These quack Scn doctors need to be reported and sued. Their victims need to know they no longer need to be afraid - we are here to support them in their fight. Their fight is ours. Let the truth be known.

Terril park
18th January 2011, 12:06 AM
Who was/is Dr. Gene Denk, who was Hubbard's personal physician? What's his story?

I knew him and saw him personally several times as a doctor in the later 70s and early 80s at Shaw Health Center on Fountain Avenue in LA, down the street from the complex.

He was a different man before he was recruited to work for Hubbard personally. He was once a good doctor, but he sold out or lost the plot.

In one of my visits to him around the late 70s, I had a cyst in a fallopian tube. He took a medical sample, analyzed it on the spot, figured out the composition of the cyst and put me on antibiotics that healed it. Better than surgery and for that time, it was brilliant.

In later visits by very sick staff at AOLA when I was SSO (I sent them to the doctor first, then fought to get the bills paid), his use of medicine deteriorated. Staff received less antibiotics and more vitamin B1 or B12 shots. They were commonly told they had "adrenal exhaustion" but few blood tests were ever performed to confirm this.

So I stopped sending staff to him or to the several other Scn doctors in LA who mirrored whatever Denk did, like Dr Meghan Shields (who hardly ever did anything else besides vitamin shots). Hell, if all they were willing to do was prescribe vitamins and I was fighting and using up my tiny allocations and risking being personally billed for unauthorized staff medical expenses to send them there just for this bullshit, why not just buy the vitamins for the staff?

Then Dr Denk disappeared. He went "over the rainbow" to become L Ron's personal physician and work on Scientology projects.

And he gave medical approval for some really abominable things. Like the Running Program. It was a nightmare tested out on the PAC RPF and the whole concept of running in circles for hours around a pole as psychological therapy was insane. Lots of people got very sick doing it.

If that weren't enough, he completely sold his integrity when he was L Ron's physician by refusing to declare him mentally incompetent in his last months/year(s), instead becoming part of a team to disguise and hide his condition. Denk should have put Hubbard in the hands of his family and a proper medical facility - notably, Diana and/or Susan, like any other old man who had lost the plot and was incapable of making rational decisions anymore. Denk violated his oaths and integrity as a physician many times - by refusing to report Hubbard's condition or the fact that a man in this condition was being secretly smuggled around in isolation and kept in a drugged state. Instead, he supplied Hubbard with cocktails of drugs, perhaps administering them personally, and Hubbard signed a revised will in this condition and insane state which should never have been valid. And the DM crim team took over.

After I was out of Scn and the SO in 87, I periodically saw Dr. Denk in the area. Unlike the late 70s or early 80s, he had an expensive car, he dressed flashy, he'd had plastic surgery on his face and a fake tan. He appeared to be doing very well financially from his work with(on?) Hubbard. And though he was still listed as a doctor at Shaw Health Center, he rarely came by, and to my knowledge, stopped seeing patients personally. He appeared to be doing very well financially.

Another who sold his integrity for Scientology.

You are a wealth of info in unsuspected places.

Consult with Tory who also knew Dr Denk.

Was he a scientologist? Employed by Hubbard/COS?

One thing his diagnosis of " Adrenal Exhaustion" was probably spot on.

Its a result of continual stress. Leads to all sorts of maladies.

The handling, per Adelle Davis is B vit pantothenic acid. I once cured a friend with this. He was at the time selling nutrients on the web, and for a variety of reasons led a stressfull life. He was taking all vits including pantothenic acid. I tentatively suggested an extra dosing of pantothenic acid, and he was back to normal health in a couple of days.

Note that its possible the running programme at PAC was different to the one Mayo had at I believe Gilman. He lost 6 teeth and was told by DM he wouldn't leave alive. This was RPF stuff. 12 hours a day in the desert sun.

GreyWolf
18th January 2011, 12:07 AM
These "doctors" need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

olska
18th January 2011, 12:13 AM
Too late to prosecute Dr. Gene Denk -- he's been dead for years.

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 12:20 AM
You are a wealth of info in unsuspected places.

Consult with Tory who also knew Dr Denk.

Was he a scientologist? Employed by Hubbard/COS?

One thing his diagnosis of " Adrenal Exhaustion" was probably spot on.

Its a result of continual stress. Leads to all sorts of maladies.

The handling, per Adelle Davis is B vit pantothenic acid. I once cured a friend with this. He was at the time selling nutrients on the web, and for a variety of reasons led a stressfull life. He was taking all vits including pantothenic acid. I tentatively suggested an extra dosing of pantothenic acid, and he was back to normal health in a couple of days.

Note that its possible the running programme at PAC was different to the one Mayo had at I believe Gilman. He lost 6 teeth and was told by DM he wouldn't leave alive. This was RPF stuff. 12 hours a day in the desert sun.

I was SO in LA for 9 years, Terril, have you forgotten? Tory and I knew each other. We were both SO in LA. We did not know each other well when we were in though. You are welcome to consult with her if you wish. Any Scns who spent any great deal of time in LA in the 70's & 80s knew Shaw Health Center.

Terril, exhaustion can be a symptom of many things, including cancer, liver and kidney disease, and a wealth of other things. For a doctor to make a diagnosis of "adrenal exhaustion" off the top of his or her head without so much as a blood test is extremely irresponsible and disgusting. SOME staff had adrenal exhaustion. But others died from misdiagnosis (did you see the report from the former AOLA & ASHO FESer that I attached?)

Yes, both Denk and Shields were active Scientologists. When did Denk die? Shields still has a website and is the key medico behind the Purification Rundown.

Adele Davis was sued a number of times for misinformation in her books. She also died of cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Adelle_Davis

You or I can "self-diagnose" without any medical degree. But we can't find cancer, liver or kidney disease, or other things that others depend on professionals to test for and know about before it is too late. And these days, it only takes a simple blood test to find if you have any cancer at all in your body. It should be done more often.

SO Members DIED because Denk and Shields diagnosed "adrenal exhaustion" without running tests.

Other patients that saw Denk or Shields ended up having cancer and being treated too late, or not vigorously enough. Enid Byrne died of cancer sitting at her desk - she was a patient of Shaw Health Center. Mary Sue Hubbard died of breast cancer, she was a patient of Megan Shields - but breast cancer, if caught and treated early and vigorously, is pretty much curable these days. Too little, too late for MSH, Enid Byrne and others.

RE RUNNING PROGRAM: The Gilman Springs Running Program pilot WAS the PAC Running Program pilot. It was conducted in 1985 or 1986, while I was on the RPF (I did not go to Gilman Springs, but others I was on the PAC RPF with were transferred there). Was this a SECOND pilot after Mayo's?!? It appears to be the case. The year I stated is correct.

I assume Denk was paid in some way by the C of S or L Ron while he was with him as his personal physician in the final years. He came back quite well off, and Shaw Health Center wasn't very profitable before that.

Dulloldfart
18th January 2011, 12:22 AM
Instead, he supplied Hubbard with cocktails of drugs, perhaps administering them personally, and Hubbard signed a revised will in this condition and insane state which should never have been valid. And the DM crim team took over.


Here is the coroner's toxicology report:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/hubbard_toxicology_report.jpg

Paul

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 12:42 AM
Thanks, Paul. There were also needle marks according to several different reports, and the C of S did not allow a full autopsy.

"He was found with Vistaril (an antihistamine with psychotropic properties of some sort) in his blood stream and needle marks in his glutes.

The church of Scn told the medical examiner's office that autopsies aren't allowed in Scn so they didn't do one. This claim that they aren't allowed is false so I assume someone had something to hide."

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Scientology-1751/Death-Ron-Hubbard.htm

Here's a more comprehensive link on events before L Ron died. Sure looks shady:
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/was-hubbard-murdered.htm

Dulloldfart
18th January 2011, 01:07 AM
What evidence is there for "Instead, he supplied Hubbard with cocktails of drugs, perhaps administering them personally, and Hubbard signed a revised will in this condition and insane state which should never have been valid"?

He died a week after the stroke. Denk said he prescribed the Vistaril for "dysphasia," i.e., mental imbalance after the stroke. There is nothing suspicious about that, as far as I can tell. He died, remember! The stroke killed him, so I don't have a problem believing his mental state was affected too, and I don't have a problem accepting whatever mental state he was in before, or that the revised will should be invalid. But I don't see clinical evidence in the toxicology report of other drugs.

This is a list of how long different drugs stay in the system. I haven't a clue if it is accurate or not. But I assume the coroner toxicology guys know what they are doing.

From http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_do_drugs_stay_in_your_system:


Alcohol - 3-5 days in urine (eTg), up to 90 in hair and around 10 - 12 hours in blood.

Amphetamines - 1 to 3 days in urine, up to 90 in hair and around 12 hours in blood.

MDMA (Ecstasy) 3-4 days in urine, up to 90 in hair and 1 - 2 days in blood.

Barbiturates - 2 to 4 days in urine, up to 90 in hair and 1 to 2 days in blood.

Phenobarbital - 2 to 3 weeks in urine, up to 90 in hair and up to a week in blood.

Benzodiazapines - 3 to 6 weeks in urine, up to 90 in hair and 2 - 3 days in blood.

Marijuana - 7 to 30 days in urine, up to 90 days in hair, two weeks in blood.

Methamphetamine (crystal) - 3 to 6 days in urine, up 90 in hair, 24 - 72 hours in blood.

Cocaine - 3 to 4 days in urine, up to 90 days in hair, 1 - 2 days in blood.

Codeine - 1 day in urine, up to 90 days in hair, 12 hours in blood.

Fentanyl - 1 day in urine, up to 90 days in hair, 4 hours in blood.

Morphine - 2 -3 days in urine, up to 90 in hair, 6 - 8 hours in blood.

Heroin - 3 to 4 days in urine, up to 90 in hair, up to 12 hours in blood.

LSD - 1 to 3 days in urine, up to 3 days in hair, 2 - 3 hours in blood.

Methadone - 3 - 4 days in urine, up to 90 in hair, 24 - 36 hours in blood.

PCP - up to 30 days in urine, up to 90 days in hair, 2 - 4 days in blood.

Dilaudid - 2 to 3 days in urine, up to 90 days in hair, up to 22 hours in blood.

Suboxone - 2 - 5 days in urine, up to 90 days in hair, up to 3 days in blood.

-----

EDIT: Looking again at the toxicology report, it says they used a blood specimen (I know there was no urine available). But they really didn't use a hair sample? If the above figures are true, WHY would they not use a hair sample too?

-----

Funnily enough, I (literally) hopped into Denk's office the morning after I had (or was still having, per him) a stroke, in October 2001. I was several years out of the SO by then. He looked *terrible*, very very dark and massy. I had seen Megan Shields before, but it was the first time I had ever seen him. He referred me to the hospital (Olive View), the correct thing to do, and they looked after me fine.

Paul

Smilla
18th January 2011, 01:26 AM
Fascinating and enlightening reading as always, Gottabrain. Thanks for posting it.

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 01:27 AM
What evidence is there for "Instead, he supplied Hubbard with cocktails of drugs, perhaps administering them personally, and Hubbard signed a revised will in this condition and insane state which should never have been valid"?

He died a week after the stroke. Denk said he prescribed the Vistaril for "dysphasia," i.e., mental imbalance after the stroke. There is nothing suspicious about that, as far as I can tell. He died, remember! The stroke killed him, so I don't have a problem believing his mental state was affected too, and I don't have a problem accepting whatever mental state he was in before, or that the revised will should be invalid. But I don't see clinical evidence in the toxicology report of other drugs.

This is a list of how long different drugs stay in the system. I haven't a clue if it is accurate or not. But I assume the coroner toxicology guys know what they are doing..."

EDIT: Looking again at the toxicology report, it says they used a blood specimen (I know there was no urine available). But they really didn't use a hair sample? If the above figures are true, WHY would they not use a hair sample too?

-----

Funnily enough, I (literally) hopped into Denk's office the morning after I had (or was still having, per him) a stroke, in October 2001. I was several years out of the SO by then. He looked *terrible*, very very dark and massy. I had seen Megan Shields before, but it was the first time I had ever seen him. He referred me to the hospital (Olive View), the correct thing to do, and they looked after me fine.

Paul

Nice research and refs, Paul. You are right, there was no absolute evidence of other drugs in his body at that time, as this evidence was denied and an autopsy was denied. Still, the following is a pretty damning case against Dr. Denk:

"THE SUSPICIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES OF L. RON HUBBARD'S DEATH ,AND PURPORTED EXECUTION OF ALLEGED LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT PURPORTEDLY DATED JANUARY 25,1987 23. For many years prior to his death, Mr. Hubbard ingested various drugs, many of them allegedly hypnotic and psychiatric drugs, and other medications which were administered by certain assistants of Mr. Hubbard, such as a certain Andre Tabayoyon and Kim Douglas, whose testimony will be submitted with the Petitions sought to be filed herein. One of Mr.

Hubbard's own sons has also testified to these facts in prior proceedings.

24. During the two years before his death, a Dr. Gene Denk was in constant attendance upon Mr. Hubbard on a full time basis. Dr. Gene Denk is understood to be a duly licensed California physician.

25. Approximately two weeks before Mr. Hubbard died, Dr.

Denk left Mr. Hubbard's side in Creston, California and went on a gambling trip to Reno/Lake Tahoe, Nevada accompanied by his wife, Terri Gamboa, Rick Aznaran, and David Miscavige.

In essence, it appears that L. Ron Hubbard's medical support was intentionally withdrawn from him. Prior to this gambling expedition, David Miscavige was reported in prior testimony as stating, in effect, "the IRS indictments are about to come down. The only thing that will save us now is if the Old Man dies."

During their absence in Reno, Nevada, Mr. Hubbard suffered a crippling stroke. Upon information and belief, Mr. Hubbard received no medical attention from any physician licensed to practice in California, until Dr. Denk returned from Reno, Nevada. Dr. Denk had prescribed and administered a number of drugs to Mr. Hubbard, including the psychiatric drug Hydroxyzine (Vistaril) which is usually administered in combination with other hypnotic, psychotic and sedating narcotics and restricted drugs. Indeed, the Coroner's report indicates that there were "ten recent needle marks" in "the right gluteal area" of the dead body.

According to Dr. Denk's statement to the Coroner, Mr. Hubbard also had a "long history of chronic pancreatitis" (which is primarily cause by alcoholism) and a recent history of "dysphrasia." According to the Coroner, Dr. Denk also told the Coroner "of decedent's clinical history which supported a possible neurological problem;" thereby raising issues of cognitive capacity which Mr. Hubbard's personal representatives such as Norman F. Starkey, Sherman D. Lenske, Esq., and Earle Cooley, Esq. should have brought to the attention of this Court. Berry Declaration, Exhibit A, "Investigation," "Report on "Toxicology Report" Post Mortem Examination, 26. Mr. Hubbard's 1979, 1982 and 1983 testamentary instruments made no disposition of any copyrights which cannot, as a matter of law, be transferred by will. In addition, Mary Sue Hubbard had/has a fifty percent community property interest in each of these copyrights.

27. Immediately prior to Mr. Hubbard's death, Dr. Denk, Pat Broeker, Anne Broeker, Steven Pfauth, Ray Mithoff, and possibly others, were in attendance with Mr. Hubbard.

All of them are within the group defined herein as Hubbard's Successors as defined in paragraph 3 herein.

28. Upon information and belief, neither Mr. Hubbard's wife, Mary Sue Hubbard, nor any of his children were present at the time of his death, were not advised of his ailing health and imminent demise, and the Hubbard Successors purposefully deprived the Hubbard family of the opportunity to be with him at his death bed. One day before he died, with his cognitive capacity in serious question, Mr. Hubbard purportedly signed a new will and trust agreement providing, among other things, for purported transfers of the Disputed Works to the Hubbard Successors, and which made certain lesser testamentary provisions for Mr. Hubbard's wife and certain of his children. Significantly the inherently suspect alleged last minute will, for the very first time, purported to unlawfully transfer the Disputed Works to the Hubbard Successors notwithstanding the community property interest of his wife who had been married to him when each of the Disputed Works were allegedly written by Mr. Hubbard alone.

David Miscavige and Dr. Denk misrepresented the significance of the differences between the purported January 23, 1986 Will and the earlier testamentary instruments. Berry Decl.

Exhibit A, Investigation Report, page 4, 2nd full para.

Clearly, those misrepresentations of David Miscavige and Dr. Denk misled the coroner into concluding that there was no reason or motive to suspect foul play and therefore no need to investigate further. Upon information and belief, David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, and others participating provided no opportunity for any of the Hubbard Family members to be involved in these events.

29. The Coroner was unable, and not permitted, to conduct an autopsy of Mr. Hubbard's body. Mr. Hubbard's death was not reported to the authorities for many, many hours until attorney Earle Cooley, Esq. had traveled from Boston, Massachusetts to the ranch at Creston, California, had assessed the situation and then notified a funeral home which became suspicious as a result of the delay in reporting the death, and alerted the Coroner. Berry The provisions of the 1986 will are generally described on pages 6-8 of the draft Memorandum of Points and Authorities attached to the supporting Berry Declaration as Exhibit C."

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/was-hubbard-murdered.htm

Paul, I never saw Dr. Denk again after the late 80's - I moved out of Calif then. All he did for you was refer you to another place, a free place.

You were still in the SO then, right? That sort of thing is described in detail by the FESer who wrote the report on my second post. (click on it for details)

You say you were happy with Denk at the time. But could you have been prescribed something or given a test by him rather than referred elsewhere? At least he didn't misdiagnose you. Better a referral than a misdiagnosis.

Please click on the link I gave on my second post and read the full report.

Dulloldfart
18th January 2011, 01:49 AM
Paul, I never saw Dr. Denk again after the late 80's - I moved out of Calif then. All he did for you was refer you to another place, a free place.

You were still in the SO then, right? That sort of thing is described in detail by the FESer who wrote the report on my second post. (click on it for details)

You say you were happy with Denk at the time. But could you have been prescribed something or given a test by him rather than referred elsewhere? At least he didn't misdiagnose you. Better a referral than a misdiagnosis.

Please click on the link I gave on my second post and read the full report.

The diagnosis of a TIA wasn't too hard to make, since my right leg and arm were grossly misfunctioning. There was no obvious cognitive impairment, and I was my usual chirpy self, not particularly bothered by the medical stuff at all. The free hospital was fine by me as I had no medical insurance. When I got there I figured I would be waiting several hours. The person who took me was more pushy than me and yelled "he's having a stroke!" waving Denk's letter. One minute later, literally, four medical people rushed out with a gurney and took me inside and hovered around me for a while doing whatever they do. Later that night I got an MRI and spent a couple of days in Intensive Care before spending a few days in a really nice rehab place in the high desert. I was very satisfied with the care, and the bill I got for $45,000 got knocked down to about $500 by their finance people, which I could afford to pay and did promptly. I got back about 95% of the use of the arm and leg.

I had left the SO five years before.

I'm not trying to defend Denk or the Shaw Health Center.

Paul

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 02:18 AM
Wow, Paul. They really took good care of you. :thumbsup:

What a wonderful (dare I say it?) Success Story about good medical practice saving your life and limbs at the hospital! :D :clap::clap:

I'm glad you're alright now. That must have been so scary to go through.

Yeh, I understand you're not really defending Dr Denk. Your point about why no hair test is a good one, too, with the list of drugs that could have been tested with it.

Terril park
18th January 2011, 02:42 AM
Terril, exhaustion can be a symptom of many things, including cancer, liver and kidney disease, and a wealth of other things. For a doctor to make a diagnosis of "adrenal exhaustion" off the top of his or her head without so much as a blood test is extremely irresponsible and disgusting.

Exhaustian and adrenal exhaustian are not nessesarily the same thing.

IMO, not expert, I'd expect adrenal exhaustion best diagnosed by blood test. Was Denk able to spend the bucks to do this or was he doing the best he could? I presume he was an excellent doctor. After all Hubbard chose him!

Was his knowledge compromised by connection to LRH and COS?




SOME staff had adrenal exhaustion. But others died from misdiagnosis (did you see the report from the former AOLA & ASHO FESer that I attached?)

Yes, both Denk and Shields were active Scientologists. When did Denk die? Shields still has a website and is the key medico behind the Purification Rundown.

Didn't see.




Adele Davis was sued a number of times for misinformation in her books. She also died of cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Adelle_Davis


Of course she would be. Or do you shill for big Pharma. :)

She may not have got everything right but was a pioneer. Its hard science
that vits are essential to health. Though I must say after a recent stay in a UK hospital this would be hard to believe.



You or I can "self-diagnose" without any medical degree. But we can't find cancer, liver or kidney disease, or other things that others depend on professionals to test for and know about before it is too late. And these days, it only takes a simple blood test to find if you have any cancer at all in your body. It should be done more often.

Right on! I expect COS was delinquent there.



SO Members DIED because Denk and Shields diagnosed "adrenal exhaustion" without running tests.

Were these people put on the recommended regime by the doctors?
How do you know tests weren't run?



Other patients that saw Denk or Shields ended up having cancer and being treated too late, or not vigorously enough. Enid Byrne died of cancer sitting at her desk - she was a patient of Shaw Health Center. Mary Sue Hubbard died of breast cancer, she was a patient of Megan Shields - but breast cancer, if caught and treated early and vigorously, is pretty much curable these days. Too little, too late for MSH, Enid Byrne and others.

These days are now. That was then. Don't especially doubt what you say.
Doubt iether of us are fully knowledgable of events. Agree care was criminally absent.

Love
bb

RE RUNNING PROGRAM: The Gilman Springs Running Program pilot WAS the PAC Running Program pilot. It was conducted in 1985 or 1986, while I was on the RPF (I did not go to Gilman Springs, but others I was on the PAC RPF with were transferred there). Was this a SECOND pilot after Mayo's?!? It appears to be the case. The year I stated is correct.

I assume Denk was paid in some way by the C of S or L Ron while he was with him as his personal physician in the final years. He came back quite well off, and Shaw Health Center wasn't very profitable before that.[/QUOTE]

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 03:38 AM
Exhaustian and adrenal exhaustian are not nessesarily the same thing. IMO, not expert, I'd expect adrenal exhaustion best diagnosed by blood test. Was Denk able to spend the bucks to do this or was he doing the best he could? I presume he was an excellent doctor. After all Hubbard chose him!

Was his knowledge compromised by connection to LRH and COS?.

That's exactly my point. It's a lazy and non-medical diagnosis. There are blood tests for vitamin deficiencies, not specifically for adrenal exhaustion, because adrenal exhaustion is not an actual medical term or medical condition. It's alternative medicine slang for fatigue.

Shaw Health Center always charged for its services. They rarely handled any staff free and had a large public base. Orgs were stopped from receiving services there if they did not pay their bills. So they could certainly provide blood tests and charge for them like any other doctor in the US.

:melodramatic: Yeh, Hubbard chose him. :omg: But really, we don't know if Hubbard chose Denk or if others just sent him to Hubbard. He wasn't Hubbard's physician until the early to mid-80s.

"Adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenia is a term used in alternative medicine to describe the belief that the adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily cortisol. The term "adrenal fatigue" may be applied to a collection of non-specific medically unexplained symptoms, but it is not recognized by mainstream institutions. This is distinct from clinically defined adrenal dysfunction disorders such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's Disease.[1]

The term "adrenal fatigue" is used by some practitioners of alternative medicine, who claim that adrenal fatigue is too mild to be picked up on standard blood tests of adrenal function[citation needed]. The concept has given rise to an industry of dietary supplements claiming to treat this syndrome"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_fatigue


Didn't see.

This link by the AOLA and ASHO FESer. It's very accurate. Same time period I'm talking about (and I didn't see this until after my post, either.)

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/megan-shields-cult-criminality.htm



Of course she would be. Or do you shill for big Pharma. :) ?

She may not have got everything right but was a pioneer. Its hard science
that vits are essential to health. Though I must say after a recent stay in a UK hospital this would be hard to believe.

Right on! I expect COS was delinquent there.

Were these people put on the recommended regime by the doctors?
How do you know tests weren't run?

These days are now. That was then. Don't especially doubt what you say.
Doubt iether of us are fully knowledgable of events. Agree care was criminally absent.


A pioneer is not an expert. When doctors forsake known tests and cures for questionable, out-of-date nutritional gurus, it is a problem. Denk was once a good doctor. He changed. Long term effects of brainwashing, I guess. Sad.

People can get enough vits in the food they eat with a good diet. Current science does not find excessive mega-vitamin doses healthy except where there is an actual, proven deficiency, and megadoses can be destructive. But I will not argue this back & forth with the alternative medicine folks. The scientific opinion is different than the vitamin guru beliefs.

I never had any respect for Megan Shields as a doctor and felt she was always an airhead who could not make rational judgments on when to use medical science and alternative medicines.

I know personally because I was Staff Section Office holding Medical Liason Officer for AOLA staff for 1-1/2 years (just before going on the OEC course).
More often than not, I saw the vit shots did little to nothing to help sick staff. Many of those staff are now dead. Dead is dead. What was wrong with them wasn't detected then or afterward and it should have been.

It's not in the past. Megan Shields is currently the main doctor advocating the Narconon and Purification Rundowns.

Terril, can you now explain your comment about what David Mayo had to do with the Gilman Springs Running Program? The pilot I knew about was right around the end of 1985 to 1986, because I was on the RPF at the time. Was there an earlier pilot he was on, or did the Running Program pilot continue through all those years?

Dulloldfart
18th January 2011, 03:43 AM
Wow, Paul. They really took good care of you. :thumbsup:

What a wonderful (dare I say it?) Success Story about good medical practice saving your life and limbs at the hospital! :D :clap::clap:

I'm glad you're alright now. That must have been so scary to go through.

Yeh, I understand you're not really defending Dr Denk. Your point about why no hair test is a good one, too, with the list of drugs that could have been tested with it.

Everything they did in the hospital was precautionary and monitoring. There was no treatment there as such, no drugs at all. Excellent care. The rehab place did rehab of arm and leg movement and got me walking with a cane. I tossed the cane 6 weeks later.

It honestly wasn't scary at all at any point. I actually enjoyed the adventure of it all in my humdrum desk-job life. Even the event of the moment of the stroke itself was interesting, with the perception changes (like an LSD trip with heavily distorted perspectives, body looking 10 feet long etc). There was nothing more than mild discomfort involved, and the curious situation of not being able to control a couple of limbs and numbness/tingling/heat for a while. I assumed it would all pass sooner or later, and the worst of it soon (weeks) went away.

The rehab place was amazing. I think there were three patients staying there total. There were more staff. I had my own room. As I said, I was very chirpy, and they were very not accustomed to that at all, and said no-one was *ever* like that! I looked on it like a holiday. I can't say I was sorry to leave, as I assumed I would get a bill for about $10,000 a day and didn't know how much of that I would have to pay. But it all worked out fine in the end.


-----

Back to Hubbard. I didn't notice they didn't do a hair test before. Wouldn't that be incredibly important if they were looking for foul play before the stroke, if those figures of how long drugs are detectable are accurate? Clipping off a chunk of hair is not an autopsy.

Paul

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 04:11 AM
Everything they did in the hospital was precautionary and monitoring. There was no treatment there as such, no drugs at all. Excellent care. The rehab place did rehab of arm and leg movement and got me walking with a cane. I tossed the cane 6 weeks later.

It honestly wasn't scary at all at any point. I actually enjoyed the adventure of it all in my humdrum desk-job life. Even the event of the moment of the stroke itself was interesting, with the perception changes (like an LSD trip with heavily distorted perspectives, body looking 10 feet long etc). There was nothing more than mild discomfort involved, and the curious situation of not being able to control a couple of limbs and numbness/tingling/heat for a while. I assumed it would all pass sooner or later, and the worst of it soon (weeks) went away.

The rehab place was amazing. I think there were three patients staying there total. There were more staff. I had my own room. As I said, I was very chirpy, and they were very not accustomed to that at all, and said no-one was *ever* like that! I looked on it like a holiday. I can't say I was sorry to leave, as I assumed I would get a bill for about $10,000 a day and didn't know how much of that I would have to pay. But it all worked out fine in the end.

That is so cool, Paul. I'm sure they appreciated your upbeat attitude and your positive outlook must have been very helpful. A qualified Physical Therapist can do amazing things. Just curious - did they use biofeedback in your Physical Therapy?

-----


Back to Hubbard. I didn't notice they didn't do a hair test before. Wouldn't that be incredibly important if they were looking for foul play before the stroke, if those figures of how long drugs are detectable are accurate? Clipping off a chunk of hair is not an autopsy.

Paul

Exactly. And that's what makes it even more suspicious. How easy is it to get a hair sample? But no way was DM and his crook friends going to provide it.
If you look at the dates of the things Hubbard signed, he signed that stupid "no autopsy" thing the day before he died, when he was already admittedly known by Denk to have cognitive and speech problems and was already on the Vistaril.

Vistaril also causes blurred vision, btw.

To me, there is nothing that happened that DOESN'T smack of cover-up and planning to let him die. Someone would have called Denk if Hubbard suffered a stroke or heart attack while Denk was in Vegas, right? So why did he stay and not return immediately? Why were there no arrangements for a qualified physician to attend to him immediately and he was left like that with no adequate medical care until it was definitely "too late"?

Hubbard's will was redrafted the day before he died and the Executor changed from Pat Broeker to Norman Starkey.Just days before Hubbard's death, Denk left for a gambling vacation in Las Vegas with some of Hubbard's top aides, including Gamboa, Miscavige and wife, and the Aznarans. By the time he returned, there was nothing he could do. http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/

BUT LAS VEGAS IS A 2 HOUR FLIGHT FROM LA!

Andre Tabayoyan, who was a loyal personal friend to L Ron Hubbard for over 20 years, wrote plenty and testified plenty about this when the will was challenged. Andre is one person I would always trust to tell the truth. He genuinely loved Hubbard - at least at that time. Didn't matter in the end.
Here's the Legal Doc: http://www.factnet.org/probate1.htm
http://www.factnet.org/probate1.htm

Stat
18th January 2011, 05:04 AM
Thank you for sharing the info, Gottabrain.
Shields is still alive, right?

dianaclass8
18th January 2011, 05:10 AM
When I was on the Class VIII course I got very sick and went to Dr, Shields, she was then Dr. Denk's partner, she she grossly misdiagnosed me and then I went to Denk who also misdiagnose me.

I finally went back to Mexico to my doctor who cured me and told me that If I had not come I would have died, he also told me that I should report those american doctors to the proper authorities for their unethical behaviour.

I reported them to ethics and demanded they got some correction. They refused and seemed to be above everyone at the Pac Base. So I told everybody and the dog what had happened, I told over 200 people not to go to them. Shields got furious and wrote me up, I was called by OSA and I refused to stop.

To make the story short, neither Shields or Denk were able to stop me from telling people what criminal doctors they were, I was even threatened with an SP declare, but that is how I am...I never stopped, they never declared me.

Later I learned Denk had died and that he was a gambler.

Megan Shields had two adopted daughters, one went to school with my daughter. She hung herself in the room....A couple years later the other daughter also committed suicide.

Stat
18th January 2011, 05:26 AM
When I was on the Class VIII course I got very sick and went to Dr, Shields, she was then Dr. Denk's partner, she she grossly misdiagnosed me and then I went to Denk who also misdiagnose me.

I finally went back to Mexico to my doctor who cured me and told me that If I had not come I would have died, he also told me that I should report those american doctors to the proper authorities for their unethical behaviour.

I reported them to ethics and demanded they got some correction. They refused and seemed to be above everyone at the Pac Base. So I told everybody and the dog what had happened, I told over 200 people not to go to them. Shields got furious and wrote me up, I was called by OSA and I refused to stop.

To make the story short, neither Shields or Denk were able to stop me from telling people what criminal doctors they were, I was even threatened with an SP declare, but that is how I am...I never stopped, they never declared me.

Later I learned Denk had died and that he was a gambler.

Megan Shields had two adopted daughters, one went to school with my daughter. She hung herself in the room....A couple years later the other daughter also committed suicide.

Another Whoa...

And I thought I've heard it all.

Stat
18th January 2011, 05:28 AM
Hey, Paul!

Just as a side note, thanks for sharing on your stroke experience!

Very cool, happy for you. :)

Dulloldfart
18th January 2011, 12:10 PM
Just curious - did they use biofeedback in your Physical Therapy?


Not that I recall.



Exactly. And that's what makes it even more suspicious. How easy is it to get a hair sample? But no way was DM and his crook friends going to provide it.

Per the coroner's report (http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/) (pages 3 and 4), the two (CofS) attorneys had no objection to the toxicology study. A hair sample was not asked for, and consequently not refused. Per this Wikipedia article on hair analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_analysis), hair analysis is *increasingly* being used for various purposes. "In December 1995 the Society of Hair Testing was founded to promote the research in hair testing technologies in forensic, clinical and occupational sciences. . . ." In other words, it's a developing subject, and was almost certainly not a standard forensic procedure in 1986.

Paul

Peter Soderqvist
18th January 2011, 02:01 PM
That's exactly my point. It's a lazy and non-medical diagnosis. There are blood tests for vitamin deficiencies, not specifically for adrenal exhaustion, because adrenal exhaustion is not an actual medical term or medical condition. It's alternative medicine slang for fatigue.

Shaw Health Center always charged for its services. They rarely handled any staff free and had a large public base. Orgs were stopped from receiving services there if they did not pay their bills. So they could certainly provide blood tests and charge for them like any other doctor in the US.

:melodramatic: Yeh, Hubbard chose him. :omg: But really, we don't know if Hubbard chose Denk or if others just sent him to Hubbard. He wasn't Hubbard's physician until the early to mid-80s.

"Adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenia is a term used in alternative medicine to describe the belief that the adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily cortisol. The term "adrenal fatigue" may be applied to a collection of non-specific medically unexplained symptoms, but it is not recognized by mainstream institutions. This is distinct from clinically defined adrenal dysfunction disorders such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's Disease.[1]

The term "adrenal fatigue" is used by some practitioners of alternative medicine, who claim that adrenal fatigue is too mild to be picked up on standard blood tests of adrenal function[citation needed]. The concept has given rise to an industry of dietary supplements claiming to treat this syndrome"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_fatigue



This link by the AOLA and ASHO FESer. It's very accurate. Same time period I'm talking about (and I didn't see this until after my post, either.)

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/megan-shields-cult-criminality.htm




A pioneer is not an expert. When doctors forsake known tests and cures for questionable, out-of-date nutritional gurus, it is a problem. Denk was once a good doctor. He changed. Long term effects of brainwashing, I guess. Sad.

People can get enough vits in the food they eat with a good diet. Current science does not find excessive mega-vitamin doses healthy except where there is an actual, proven deficiency, and megadoses can be destructive. But I will not argue this back & forth with the alternative medicine folks. The scientific opinion is different than the vitamin guru beliefs.

I never had any respect for Megan Shields as a doctor and felt she was always an airhead who could not make rational judgments on when to use medical science and alternative medicines.

I know personally because I was Staff Section Office holding Medical Liason Officer for AOLA staff for 1-1/2 years (just before going on the OEC course).
More often than not, I saw the vit shots did little to nothing to help sick staff. Many of those staff are now dead. Dead is dead. What was wrong with them wasn't detected then or afterward and it should have been.

It's not in the past. Megan Shields is currently the main doctor advocating the Narconon and Purification Rundowns.

Terril, can you now explain your comment about what David Mayo had to do with the Gilman Springs Running Program? The pilot I knew about was right around the end of 1985 to 1986, because I was on the RPF at the time. Was there an earlier pilot he was on, or did the Running Program pilot continue through all those years?

Soderqvist1: it seems that doctor Gene Denk was chosen by L. Ron Hubbard in 1978, and David Mayo was put on the Running Program in 1982!

Los Angeles Times, June 24, 1990 Chapter Four: The Final Days
On or about Jan. 17, 1986, Hubbard suffered a "cerebral vascular accident," commonly known as a stroke. Caring for him was Gene Denk, a Scientologist doctor and Hubbard's physician for eight years.There was little Denk could do for Hubbard in those final days -- the stroke was debilitating. He was bedridden and his speech was badly impaired. One week later, at 8 p.m. on Friday, Jan. 24, Hubbard died.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/series/scien231.html

Interview with David Mayo, by Russell Miller Tape 1
I was in Clearwater in September '78 and I was told to go to La Quinta. He was very ill. Dr [Eugene] Denk was there and trying to find out what was wrong with him. The Messengers who were looking after him figured they had to get an auditor there. Paulette Cohen had been auditing him but he got dissatisfied and upset with her and wanted someone else. They wanted to get Jeff Walker, and I was senior case supervisor at Flag and they didn't think they could take me away. Jeff Walker started on the route but Hubbard heard and said, "no way, send Mayo," so they sent me. Walker arrived in LA and was on his way back by the time I was on the way.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

Bare-Faced Messiah Chapter 21 Page 357
Denk told me he thought LRH was close to death. He would have moved him into a hospital but he thought the ride in the ambulance might finish him off. I was given his PC folders and told to solve the problem. I started looking through the folders that night and began auditing him next day.
http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfm21.htm#357

Soderqvist1: L. Ron Hubbard had a peculiar way to thanks David Mayo for saving his Life!

David Mayo Affidavit 1994
14. On August 29, 1982, David Miscavage, and others, acting on the orders of L. Ron Hubbard, kidnapped me and subsequently kept me captive and physically and mentally abused me for six months. During this period, David Miscavage, an officer and director of RTC, told me in the presence of Vicki Aznaran, President of RTC, Mark Yaeger, Commanding Officer, CMO INT of CSI that if I ever escaped, he would personally see to it that the resources of the Church of Scientology would destroy my character and reputation internationally. During that six-month period of captivity, I was forced to run around a tree in the desert in temperatures of up to 110 degrees for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 3 months I was under tremendous coercion and duress. I was refused medical and dental treatment (after escaping captivity I lost six teeth and required thousands of dollars of dental work to save the rest of my teeth). I was not permitted to make or receive phone calls and all letters I wrote were read by Scientology security guards. I was often awakened during the night and interrogated (mainly by Jesse Prince). In early February 1983, I was told by Rick Aznaran, Director of Security, RTC, (husband of Vicki Aznaran, President of RTC), to get the idea of leaving out of my head because I would never leave the property alive.
http://www.holysmoke.org/dm/dmayo005.htm

Auditor's Toad
18th January 2011, 03:29 PM
Gottabrain said :
"Exactly. And that's what makes it even more suspicious. How easy is it to get a hair sample? But no way was DM and his crook friends going to provide it.
If you look at the dates of the things Hubbard signed, he signed that stupid "no autopsy" thing the day before he died, when he was already admittedly known by Denk to have cognitive and speech problems and was already on the Vistaril.

Vistaril also causes blurred vision, btw.

To me, there is nothing that happened that DOESN'T smack of cover-up and planning to let him die. Someone would have called Denk if Hubbard suffered a stroke or heart attack while Denk was in Vegas, right? So why did he stay and not return immediately? Why were there no arrangements for a qualified physician to attend to him immediately and he was left like that with no adequate medical care until it was definitely "too late"?

Hubbard's will was redrafted the day before he died and the Executor changed from Pat Broeker to Norman Starkey.Just days before Hubbard's death, Denk left for a gambling vacation in Las Vegas with some of Hubbard's top aides, including Gamboa, Miscavige and wife, and the Aznarans. By the time he returned, there was nothing he could do. http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/

BUT LAS VEGAS IS A 2 HOUR FLIGHT FROM LA!

Andre Tabayoyan, who was a loyal personal friend to L Ron Hubbard for over 20 years, wrote plenty and testified plenty about this when the will was challenged. Andre is one person I would always trust to tell the truth. He genuinely loved Hubbard - at least at that time. Didn't matter in the end.
Here's the Legal Doc: http://www.factnet.org/probate1.htm
http://www.factnet.org/probate1.htm "

And no matter how it gets added up or who adds it up... it continues to ,look strange. Killed? Neglected? Just 'natural' causes? The major problem it would seem is there was not one honest person involved in the whole mess.

Not only does that make the truth of what happened in Creston lost it fortold of the future directions of the cult.

And here we are.... seeing what they did.

Who is happy? Who is sad?

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 11:20 PM
Soderqvist1: it seems that doctor Gene Denk was chosen by L. Ron Hubbard in 1978, and David Mayo was put on the Running Program in 1982!


Great refs, Peter, thanks. Yes, I am mistaken. Denk was L Ron's Dr since 78 according to David Mayo. I wouldn't know anything in mgmt that went on prior to 1980 except from the bird's eye view I had from Estates in 77-79 and those I knew in and around Estates in 77-79.

We hadn't seen or heard of him seeing Denk in PAC in the 80's until L Ron got very ill and Denk went to personally care for him. Denk was still at Shaw Health Center nearly every workday prior to that.

There is no question the Running Program was run at La Quinta in 1986, since several of my fellow PAC RPFers were transferred there then and not seen again for another 6-8 months (or not at all). The dates of my RPF assignment are easy to remember, since I was assigned in charge of the international Call-In for the "LRH is Dead" event in my first few months on the RPF. So there were either two Running Program pilots done at two different time periods (very likely) or the same Running Program went on for 4-5 years. Either is possible. Both are abominable.

STAT: Dr Megan Shields is still in practice and the key doctor advocating the Purification Rundown and Narconon. She is apparently working in Glenview, California. (Don't click without a safe account) Her website: http://www.getprolo.com/shields_prolotherapy_california.htm
She is also an advisor at Vista Bay Scn drug rehab: http://www.vistabay.com/credentials.php

Terril park
18th January 2011, 11:23 PM
That's exactly my point. It's a lazy and non-medical diagnosis. There are blood tests for vitamin deficiencies, not specifically for adrenal exhaustion, because adrenal exhaustion is not an actual medical term or medical condition. It's alternative medicine slang for fatigue.

It seems an area where medical knowledge is lacking. However its
a real condition. Below a link with some suggested tests.

http://www.healthremedies.com/adrenal_fatigue.html

Almost any manifestation of non optimum health can occur, thus making it very difficult to diagnose.

There is a logic about it. The adrenals need what nutrients they need.
If under continuous stress its logical these will be exhausted from the body,
and then the body can no longer keep itself in optimum condition. Thus the prevailing medical opinion that most disease results from stress.



"Adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenia is a term used in alternative medicine to describe the belief that the adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily cortisol. The term "adrenal fatigue" may be applied to a collection of non-specific medically unexplained symptoms, but it is not recognized by mainstream institutions. This is distinct from clinically defined adrenal dysfunction disorders such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's Disease.[1]

This is from Wikipedia and a controversial area they will not nessesarily be a cutting edge resource.




Terril, can you now explain your comment about what David Mayo had to do with the Gilman Springs Running Program? The pilot I knew about was right around the end of 1985 to 1986, because I was on the RPF at the time. Was there an earlier pilot he was on, or did the Running Program pilot continue through all those years?

On the URL below see the " Affidavit of David Mayo" He had to run 12
hours a day in the desert, was told he would never leave alive and lost 6 teeth. Was in 1982.


http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/runningprogram.html

More detail given below in the first tape of Zegal, quite important
FZ and critical documents you may not have come across.

http://www.lermanet.com/reference/tape1b.html

Gottabrain
18th January 2011, 11:41 PM
It seems an area where medical knowledge is lacking. However its a real condition. Below a link with some suggested tests.

http://www.healthremedies.com/adrenal_fatigue.html

Almost any manifestation of non optimum health can occur, thus making it very difficult to diagnose.

There is a logic about it. The adrenals need what nutrients they need.
If under continuous stress its logical these will be exhausted from the body,
and then the body can no longer keep itself in optimum condition. Thus the prevailing medical opinion that most disease results from stress.

Terril, I don't question at all that problems with the adrenal glands can cause exhaustion. But medical professionals see it as a symptom rather than a cause, and I agree. Adrenal dysfunction can be stress related. It can also be Cushing's Syndrome (too much cortisol produced) or Addison's Disease (too little cortisol produced). Some people are born not able to make enough cortisol. Tumors in the adrenals can also cause problems. Bleeding and infection in the adrenal glands can be fatal if not properly and promptly treated. Sugar caffeine and alcohol also put a great amount of stress from overwork of the adrenal glands.

Without finding the cause of the problem - which often includes lifestyle - it is stupid to just try to address adrenal dysfunction with vitamins without proper testing. Additionally, those with many other illnesses can exhibit exhaustion as a symptom.

That airhead Megan Shields routinely gave vitamin shots for "adrenal exhaustion" to sick staff without any testing, and she probably still does that. I'd like to see her medical license revoked.

RE DAVID MAYO - Already got that one sorted in my post just prior to this one. :) Please read. Thanks for the info.

Terril park
19th January 2011, 12:55 AM
Terril, I don't question at all that problems with the adrenal glands can cause exhaustion. But medical professionals see it as a symptom rather than a cause, and I agree. Adrenal dysfunction can be stress related. It can also be Cushing's Syndrome (too much cortisol produced) or Addison's Disease (too little cortisol produced). Some people are born not able to make enough cortisol. Tumors in the adrenals can also cause problems. Bleeding and infection in the adrenal glands can be fatal if not properly and promptly treated. Sugar caffeine and alcohol also put a great amount of stress from overwork of the adrenal glands.

Without finding the cause of the problem - which often includes lifestyle - it is stupid to just try to address adrenal dysfunction with vitamins without proper testing. Additionally, those with many other illnesses can exhibit exhaustion as a symptom.

Clearly any physical problem such as Addison's and Cushing's needs whatever is the correct handling. They are both rare.

I think its reasonably obvious, in my inexpert opinion, that the majority of
problems related to or possibly adrenal exhaustion are down to lifestyle and stress rather than physical or genetic impairment.

The medical profession hasn't fully come to terms with this. And its a really difficult area for diagnosis.

Those not in the UK are probably unaware of the latest medical issue in
the UK. When should babies start on solid food? The current UK medical advice is 6 months. In Europe and no doubt elsewhere, 4 months. This is surely one of the oldest areas of medical research and is still....controversial.

IMO one should look at both straight medical knowledge and alternatives, especially nutrition.

For example epidemiological studies of rickets relate quite closely to
exposure to the sun. Most of the UK is defficient. Unless one takes supplements.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Vitamin-D-Deficiency.htm

Then selenium is often lacking in soils in various areas. Unless one takes supplements.

http://www.suite101.com/content/selenium-deficiency-a10750


Medicine is often, maybe usually, truly excellent in certain areas, specially
if excellent diagnosis is obtainable. I would probably not be alive if I hadn't spent a week on an anti biotic drip feed during this last year. After excellent and precise diagnosis.

But in areas where medical knowledge is weak and controversial IMO
one should at least look at alternative treatment.

Gottabrain
19th January 2011, 01:10 AM
Okay, Terril. Thanks. We have different views on this and I do not want this thread derailed to a discussion of alternative medicines.

Dr Gene Denk obviously did not provide any professional medical assistance for Hubbard while he went off to Vegas to gamble with DM and the rest of the crims, nor did he report Hubbard's limited cognitive abilities to authorities prior to Hubbard signing a new will and dying.

Dr Megan Shields has had several ex's here complain about her non-medical alternative therapy methods as well as elsewhere. Staff members have died under her care from misdiagnosis or lack of diagnosis because of her setting aside any medical training as a preference for unproven alternative therapies.

Both doctors are the key doctors who condoned the Purif, Narconon and Running Programs. Dr Megan Shields is still actively working in Burbank, CA.

You have never dealt with either doctor and have no firsthand knowledge. You live in the UK, Terril. No derails, please. I've left the FZ alone for quite a while now, please offer me the same courtesy.

Terril park
19th January 2011, 01:28 AM
Okay, Terril. Thanks. We have different views on this and I do not want this thread derailed to a discussion of alternative medicines.

Dr Gene Denk obviously did not provide any professional medical assistance for Hubbard while he went off to Vegas to gamble with DM and the rest of the crims, nor did he report Hubbard's limited cognitive abilities to authorities prior to Hubbard signing a new will and dying.

Dr Megan Shields has had several ex's here complain about her non-medical alternative therapy methods as well as elsewhere. Staff members have died under her care from misdiagnosis or lack of diagnosis because of her setting aside any medical training as a preference for unproven alternative therapies.

Both doctors are the key doctors who condoned the Purif, Narconon and Running Programs. Dr Megan Shields is still actively working in Burbank, CA.

You have never dealt with either doctor and have no firsthand knowledge. You live in the UK, Terril. No derails, please. I've left the FZ alone for quite a while now, please offer me the same courtesy.

Just commenting on an area I know something about.

I'm very suportive of the knowledge you bring here, which I havn't
seen before.

Was Denk a scientologist?

Dulloldfart
19th January 2011, 01:38 AM
Was Denk a scientologist?

Jesus Terril, that's like asking was Hubbard a Scientologist?

:D

Paul

Gottabrain
20th January 2011, 09:42 PM
Just commenting on an area I know something about.

I'm very suportive of the knowledge you bring here, which I haven't
seen before.?

Thanks, Terril. Yes, you seem to know a lot about alternative medicines and nutrition.

Another thing - though the other illnesses are less common, Korsakoff's syndrome is VERY common. This is neurological damage to the brain caused by a long-term Vit B1 deficiency of chronic heavy alcoholics. But exhaustion is not one of the symptoms and it is rarely completely curable, though some recovery is possible by quitting drinking and Vit B1 therapy for years. It is very bad. MRI's of the brain confirm the damage as well. Lots of in-depth articles available on this beyond Wikipedia.

I am caring for someone with Korsakoff's now. It is no picnic. This man cannot conceptualise problems or solutions, his sight is sometimes completely messed up, he repeats himself often and short term memory comes and goes. His actions are often illogical, dangerous and destructive. But he has good and bad days, too. And he's much better off than many others who end up hospitalised. It is often confused with Alzheimer's. But Alzheimer's is degenerative, Korsakoff's improves after several years off alcohol and vitamin supplements. Alzheimer's only affects memory. Korsakoff's affects the person's ability to think rationally and logically. L Ron might term one with Korsakoff's a "robot" or "PTS". But it is a physical, not mental, condition. Like a lot of other nerve damage, it takes years to repair, and often cannot be completely repaired. Someone in this condition might be conned into believing in mental health therapy or a cult for a cure.

But it is an actual physical condition.


Was Denk a scientologist?

LOL! See what Paul said. Do fish swim? I already answered that. Yes, yes and yes.

dianaclass8
20th January 2011, 09:48 PM
Thanks, Terril. Yes, you seem to know a lot about alternative medicines and nutrition.

Another thing - though the other illnesses are less common, Korsakoff's syndrome is VERY common. This is neurological damage to the brain caused by a long-term Vit B1 deficiency of chronic heavy alcoholics. But exhaustion is not one of the symptoms and it is rarely completely curable, though some recovery is possible by quitting drinking and Vit B1 therapy for years. It is very bad. MRI's of the brain confirm the damage as well. Lots of in-depth articles available on this beyond Wikipedia.

I am caring for someone with Korsakoff's now. It is no picnic. This man cannot conceptualise problems or solutions, his sight is sometimes completely messed up, he repeats himself often and short term memory comes and goes. His actions are often illogical, dangerous and destructive. But he has good and bad days, too. And he's much better off than many others who end up hospitalised. It is often confused with Alzheimer's. But Alzheimer's is degenerative, Korsakoff's improves after several years off alcohol and vitamin supplements. Alzheimer's only affects memory. Korsakoff's affects the person's ability to think rationally and logically. L Ron might term one with Korsakoff's a "robot" or "PTS". But it is a physical, not mental, condition. Like a lot of other nerve damage, it takes years to repair, and often cannot be completely repaired. Someone in this condition might be conned into believing in mental health therapy or a cult for a cure.

But it is an actual physical condition.



LOL! See what Paul said. Do fish swim? I already answered that. Yes, yes and yes.

Thanks for the info, very interesting!

Dulloldfart
20th January 2011, 10:21 PM
LOL! See what Paul said. Do fish swim? I already answered that. Yes, yes and yes.

I was merely making a joke.

To be honest, I don't know if Denk was a true blue Scio or not. There has been discussion on ESMB as to whether Hubbard was one, and the general consensus (which I tend to agree with) was that he was not. Obviously this is not a black and white thing.

Denk obviously doctored for Scios at Shaw's, and was also employed by Hubbard, but I don't know if he got auditing or audited others, or believed Hubbard's books or bulletins or tapes, or thought he was clearing the planet, and all that kind of stuff that scios are supposed to do.

Paul

Gottabrain
20th January 2011, 10:31 PM
I was merely making a joke.

To be honest, I don't know if Denk was a true blue Scio or not. There has been discussion on ESMB as to whether Hubbard was one, and the general consensus (which I tend to agree with) was that he was not. Obviously this is not a black and white thing.

Denk obviously doctored for Scios at Shaw's, and was also employed by Hubbard, but I don't know if he got auditing or audited others, or believed Hubbard's books or bulletins or tapes, or thought he was clearing the planet, and all that kind of stuff that scios are supposed to do.

Paul

Oh! I missed your point. Interesting!

Yes, Gene Denk was a Scn. Nearly always just Flag public, though. Here are some of his service completions in Scientology (the ones we could find online)
He was auditing Solo NOTS.
http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/g/gene-denk.html

Terril park
21st January 2011, 12:05 AM
Thanks, Terril. Yes, you seem to know a lot about alternative medicines and nutrition.

Another thing - though the other illnesses are less common, Korsakoff's syndrome is VERY common. This is neurological damage to the brain caused by a long-term Vit B1 deficiency of chronic heavy alcoholics. But exhaustion is not one of the symptoms and it is rarely completely curable, though some recovery is possible by quitting drinking and Vit B1 therapy for years. It is very bad. MRI's of the brain confirm the damage as well. Lots of in-depth articles available on this beyond Wikipedia.

I am caring for someone with Korsakoff's now. It is no picnic. This man cannot conceptualise problems or solutions, his sight is sometimes completely messed up, he repeats himself often and short term memory comes and goes. His actions are often illogical, dangerous and destructive. But he has good and bad days, too. And he's much better off than many others who end up hospitalised. It is often confused with Alzheimer's. But Alzheimer's is degenerative, Korsakoff's improves after several years off alcohol and vitamin supplements. Alzheimer's only affects memory. Korsakoff's affects the person's ability to think rationally and logically. L Ron might term one with Korsakoff's a "robot" or "PTS". But it is a physical, not mental, condition. Like a lot of other nerve damage, it takes years to repair, and often cannot be completely repaired. Someone in this condition might be conned into believing in mental health therapy or a cult for a cure.

But it is an actual physical condition.



LOL! See what Paul said. Do fish swim? I already answered that. Yes, yes and yes.

You are no slouch yourself! Never heard of Korsakoff's syndrome!

Wish you well on the caring.

There are other ways to be be vit B1 defficient than alcoholism. Refined foods in countries without adding B1 as a supplement to flour for example, and those where maize is a staple. Then coffee and tea can lead to deficiencies.

http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/vitamins/b1.htm


For a mini mild rant, one should note that a vit-amine is called such as its essential to life. ie without any particular one you will die. Limited amounts of any you will be in a state of non optimum health. Under stress, requirements for vits can raise by 1000%. Worth relating to the situation of those in the SO.

It is the case that most people are somewhat deficient in some vitamins.

How to avoid this?

Not easy. Eating whole grain, organic foods is a very good start. But
even then soil in many areas is depleted of nutrients in a very variable way.

Fish, an excellent source are now very compromised because of pollution.
Its routine to advise people, especially mothers, to avoid top predators such as Tuna , Salmon and so on who concentrate pollutants. Or eat rarely.

Organic beef lamb and so on are probably pretty OK, but very expensive.

Then there is the need to go full on with cooking and so on and avoid
processed food etc.

Doubt the SO have such privilege!

No, in all not so easy.

Re Dr Denk, never met the guy. Read all about him being a Dr, vistaril
and LRH's physician. Any reference to him being a scientologist I missed
or forgot. Maybe further input on how he and Megan Shields had there
duties as a doctor compromised may be of use. maybe you've said all. Dunno.

Also it may be useful to continue with nutrition discussion on this thread.
Or start another. Over to you to decide. :)

Gottabrain
21st January 2011, 12:31 AM
^^ Great post, Terril. :)

Using both medical science and alternative health therapy in a logical, rational way is certainly the go. Most times, guesswork is unnecessary. There is no reason not to get proper tests done. Vit deficiencies are easily verified by blood tests.

It's the high concentrations of mercury in tuna and other large fish that's the problem, so it's not supposed to be eaten more than 1-2X a week.

Most of the vitamin stripped fruits and veges (from bad soil or even no soil) originate from China. They also often have extremely high contents of e coli and other bacteria, These imports are not tested very often. And the "Product of Australia" or similar labels are misleading. That only means it was imported by an Australian (or other local) company - but not locally grown.

On my last post, I gave some of Dr Denk's Scientology Service Completions.

Sheila

Terril park
21st January 2011, 12:34 AM
I should also add that many pollutants destroy vits. Or another way of saying this, the Vits are doing there job.

Air pollution almost globally is horrendous. Water pollution also. In
London drinking water is re cycled 7 times, and hormones from birth control
pills are not eradicated. Thus I drink beer. :)

Then there are the chemicals used on crops and given to animals.

tiptoethrutheminefield
21st March 2011, 02:54 AM
Gottabrain, do you notice how this thread started off with outrage, rape and child abuse and ended up with vitamins?

Ever notice how this happens a lot on ESMB?

A member on here directed me to Working Through Deflections (google it) and I found it very helpful dealing with some on this message board.

I don't mince words, so I will add that not being able to confront the evils of the organization we once supported is a phase I hope we all get completely out of eventually. Hey, that's nicer than I usually am about it!

FYI, I've recently been threatened by CoS, so I must be doing something right. :yes:

IMMORTAL
21st March 2011, 06:48 AM
Gottabrain, do you notice how this thread started off with outrage, rape and child abuse and ended up with vitamins?

Ever notice how this happens a lot on ESMB?

A member on here directed me to Working Through Deflections (google it) and I found it very helpful dealing with some on this message board.

I don't mince words, so I will add that not being able to confront the evils of the organization we once supported is a phase I hope we all get completely out of eventually. Hey, that's nicer than I usually am about it!

FYI, I've recently been threatened by CoS, so I must be doing something right. :yes:

Well, Tiptoe. I don't want to derail this thread too much (as you mention above about deflections) as this is about Dr. Denk, but I was curious about what you meant when you said the CofS has "threatened" you. Can you elaborate......or no...

PTSPal
21st March 2011, 08:22 AM
I saw Denk several times before he died (throat cancer). He continued to come in at Shaws until he got sick. I know he has been indicted here but from what I remember he was a good doc and a heck of a nice guy...

Infinite
25th March 2011, 04:36 AM
No doubt about it - Denk went his grave with many secrets and, surely, resounding cognitive dissonance. From a statement by Robert Vaughn Young (http://www.lermanet.com/reference/hubbard-murder-speculation.htm)



. . . <snip> . . . I pulled out another document, signed by Hubbard. It prohibited any autopsy of his body on religious grounds, which was legally binding on officials. DM and attorney Earle Cooley had shoved it at the coroner to stop him, leaving him to take only blood samples, which turned up the Vistaril.

So, I thought, L. Ron Hubbard, the man who fought psychiatry since 1950 and who railed against the dangers of any psychiatric drugs had died with them in his brain while signing a new last will.

Plus even the coroner was suspicious of the will as it had been signed by Hubbard just before he died. Coincidences like that tend to make coroner's worry. (I wonder what the coroner would have thought had he known that Denk was gambling at Lake Tahoe when Hubbard had his stroke, as several people can attest. The impression the coroner had was that Denk was "in attendence" with Hubbard not only at death but was there at the stroke, having stayed at the ranch for months. Hmmm....) . . . <snip> . . .

Markus
25th March 2011, 07:21 PM
"I never had any respect for Megan Shields as a doctor and felt she was always an airhead who could not make rational judgments on when to use medical science and alternative medicines." http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=524760&postcount=21

Let me just take the above statement about Dr. Megan Shields Gottabrain. I want to inform all readers of this thread that Dr. Megan Shields was the responsible MD for my brother Uwe Stuckenbrock. She and the Church of Scientology are responsible for his early death.

love

Markus

See also: http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8102

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=14804

Auditor's Toad
25th March 2011, 08:18 PM
I can't prove this, and don't even remember who told me this but....
a person who knew Gene Denk said after Hubbie croaked that Denk went home and sat on his couch for about a year.

This is NOT OK !!!!
25th March 2011, 10:02 PM
I would love to give examples of Meggan's quackery but the power of the CofS policy of disconnection prevents me.

I think that it's at least fair to say that any MD who is a Scientologist is defacto a quack.:yes:

This is NOT OK !!!!
25th March 2011, 10:08 PM
Dear Paul,

On behalf of the American wise-acres on ESMB, you are welcome! for the medical services your received at our expense.

You're a great guy.

I hope you're continuing to take good care of yourself.

Auditor's Toad
25th March 2011, 10:12 PM
I would love to give examples of Meggan's quackery but the power of the CofS policy of disconnection prevents me.I think that it's at least fair to say that any MD who is a Scientologist is defacto a quack.:yes:


Isn't it interesting the kind of pressure an alleged "church" is willing to exert to silence former members?

This is NOT OK !!!!
25th March 2011, 11:01 PM
Interesting - Yes.

A foul stench - Yes.

Completely Suppressive - YES.

Infinite
7th April 2011, 06:37 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Allaboutradiation2.jpg/200px-Allaboutradiation2.jpg

Heh! You learn something new every day. I didn't know Gene Denk co-authored that definitive medical text on radiation - quick, someone alert the Japanese authorities.

TheSneakster
7th April 2011, 08:01 PM
No doubt about it - Denk went his grave with many secrets and, surely, resounding cognitive dissonance. From a statement by Robert Vaughn Young (http://www.lermanet.com/reference/hubbard-murder-speculation.htm)


Bottom line is R.V.Y. wasn't actually there when Hubbard died and knew neither more nor less about Hubbard's death than what was available in public records, same as you or I.

Those public records say there was no murder.

Why anyone should find it suspicious that a 76 year old man with a history of cerebral vascular accident ("stroke") should have died as a result of one is quite incomprehensible to me.

Treatment of stroke victims with Vistaril was totally normal in 1986. Hubbard had numerous allergies, so use of an antihistamine (allergy suppressor) that is also a mild sedative surely was good idea.

RVY's false sensationalizing of Vistaril (antihistamine and mild sedative) as a "psych drug", when the common usage of that phrase in Scientology meant powerful mind-altering substances like anti-depressants was either extremely ignorant or highly disingenuous.

Read the entire set of coroner's reports.

There was no murder and therefore no just reason for slandering Dr. Gene Denk.

Voltaire's Child
7th April 2011, 08:11 PM
Sorry, Michael, but I think there MAY have been a murder. And whenever I say that, I say "may" rather than "Was".

There are a lot of circumstances surrounding his death that are suspect.

I will never say there was one for sure, I will never present that. And I will always say it's opinion, but it seems rather possible, maybe even likely to me that Hubbard was slain.

Someone I knew who very much wanted to never be identified or alluded to told me they were quite sure of it. Myself, I'm not so sure but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility.

OHTEEATE
7th April 2011, 09:53 PM
A friend of mine who is still "in" ,as far as I know, knew Denk pretty well. He told her some LRH stories after Hubbard died. He lived in a trailer next to LRHs motorhome at Creston, and could occasionally hear Hubbard cursing when something "backfired" on him while researching OT levels. Hubbard told him he was researching OT 10 and it was kicking his ass from time to time. It was a long level, evidently. Hubbard had Denk into his motorhome for exams pretty frequently. Once, Denk expressed interest in a folder Hubbard had out labelled "electricity". It was a big , fat folder stuffed with papers. Hubbard told him he would have to show him his "stuff" on electricity some time . He never got around to it. He was into Tesla type research and said to Denk that scientists do not know what electricity really is; they just know how to harness or direct it.

wazn
7th April 2011, 10:05 PM
Apparently Dr. Denk's wife - Rachel - has posted over on Marty's...

Peter Soderqvist
8th April 2011, 08:07 AM
Bottom line is R.V.Y. wasn't actually there when Hubbard died and knew neither more nor less about Hubbard's death than what was available in public records, same as you or I.

Those public records say there was no murder.

Why anyone should find it suspicious that a 76 year old man with a history of cerebral vascular accident ("stroke") should have died as a result of one is quite incomprehensible to me.

Treatment of stroke victims with Vistaril was totally normal in 1986. Hubbard had numerous allergies, so use of an antihistamine (allergy suppressor) that is also a mild sedative surely was good idea.

RVY's false sensationalizing of Vistaril (antihistamine and mild sedative) as a "psych drug", when the common usage of that phrase in Scientology meant powerful mind-altering substances like anti-depressants was either extremely ignorant or highly disingenuous.

Read the entire set of coroner's reports.

There was no murder and therefore no just reason for slandering Dr. Gene Denk.

Soderqvist1: Sneakster you playing with words too much!
Vistaril is the mother compound to our modern neuroleptics we have today!
In what sense is the Methylphenidate Ritalin a psych drug, but Vistaril is not?
According to the Swedish Senior Psychiatrist Ulf Brettstam Vistaril is a “psych-drug”!
http://www.xenu.net/archive/free_speech/200603-vistaril.html

Jachs
8th April 2011, 09:05 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Allaboutradiation2.jpg/200px-Allaboutradiation2.jpg

Heh! You learn something new every day. I didn't know Gene Denk co-authored that definitive medical text on radiation - quick, someone alert the Japanese authorities.

The book was not reissued in June 2007 as part of the Golden Age of Knowledge program. Among the text removed from the book in later editions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Radiation

Early printings of the book were credited on the cover as simply "By a nuclear physicist and a medical doctor", while subsequent ones credited L. Ron Hubbard as being the nuclear physicist and "Medicus" as being the doctor.

By the 1979 edition, the "medical doctor" was credited as being Richard Farley.

In the book's most recent edition, the book's authorship is attributed to Hubbard and Dr. Gene Denk and Dr. Farley R. Spink.

He said that Hubbard's knowledge of radiation, as displayed by his writings in All About Radiation, was the 'sort of knowledge that perhaps a boy who has read Intermediate Physics might, with a lot of misapprehensions and lack of understanding, demonstrate'..

In April 1957, he held the "London Congress on Nuclear Radiation and Health Lectures" at the Royal Empire Society Hall. Three of these lectures were condensed, and became chapters in his book All About Radiation, allegedly written by "a Nuclear Physicist and a Medical Doctor."

The "Nuclear Physicist" was L. Ron Hubbard, the "Medical Doctor" hid behind the pseudonym "Medicus"(the Library of Congress lists him as Richard Farley, quite possibly a Hubbard pseudonym).
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/bs3-5.htm (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edst/Library/Shelf/atack/bs3-5.htm)

However, the section of the book written by Farley/Spink, "The Facts about the Atomic Bomb", is reasonably accurate in terms of scientific veracity and is written in a very different style to Hubbard's usual bombastic tone.It concludes with a declaration of support for some of Hubbard's ideas on vitamin treatments [/U]but has few stylistic similarities with known works by Hubbard. It is most likely, therefore, to have been written by a medically aware Scientologist.

The 1989 edition also contains a introduction from Dr. Gene Denk, which is likewise reasonably scientifically accurate. The good doctor (Denk) is described as "having participated in independent scientific studies of L. Ron Hubbard's Purification [anti-toxin] program". What is not stated, however, is that he was L. Ron Hubbard's personal physician for at least 10 years and a Scientologist for at least as long; the "independence" of his studies is therefore very questionable.
.http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/radiation.html (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edst/Cowen/essays/radiation.html)

Freeminds
8th April 2011, 09:10 AM
No doubt about it - Denk went his grave with many secrets and, surely, resounding cognitive dissonance. From a statement by Robert Vaughn Young (http://www.lermanet.com/reference/hubbard-murder-speculation.htm)


. . .
So, I thought, L. Ron Hubbard, the man who fought psychiatry since 1950 and who railed against the dangers of any psychiatric drugs had died with them in his brain while signing a new last will.
. . .

Interesting statement by Robert Vaughn Young, but if you will excuse this piece of pedantry, LRH didn't sign his last will and testament. It was authorized with a thumbprint (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien591.html).

A person who signs a document would need to be in agreement, or under duress or drugged as RVY reports... but when a thumbprint and the collusion of a few witnesses is all that's required: who's to say that LRH was conscious? How do we know LRH was still alive when the will was changed? Because a bunch of high-ranking Scientologists said so. High-ranking Scientologists are not in general a group known to have a good record where truth or factual accuracy are concerned.

No wonder Dr Denk kept a low profile for a while after the events of early 1986. I wonder what he knew?

This is another of those 'we can't prove that a crime was committed' things that are frequently found in and around Scientology, but in reality that works in the critics' favour. The controversy continues to call into question the legitimacy of modern-day Scientology. What might have been a 'passing on of the torch of Scientology' instead reeks of a clumsy coup.

This is Scientology. They crave respectability, but at each defining moment, they act like gangsters. With 'loyal officers' like that, who needs SPs?

Veda
8th April 2011, 09:13 AM
A friend of mine who is still "in" ,as far as I know, knew Denk pretty well. He told her some LRH stories after Hubbard died. He lived in a trailer next to LRHs motorhome at Creston, and could occasionally hear Hubbard cursing when something "backfired" on him while researching OT levels. Hubbard told him he was researching OT 10 and it was kicking his ass from time to time. It was a long level, evidently. Hubbard had Denk into his motorhome for exams pretty frequently. Once, Denk expressed interest in a folder Hubbard had out labelled "electricity". It was a big , fat folder stuffed with papers. Hubbard told him he would have to show him his "stuff" on electricity some time . He never got around to it. He was into Tesla type research and said to Denk that scientists do not know what electricity really is; they just know how to harness or direct it.

Too bad Dr. Denk couldn't have just told the truth about Hubbard's death at age 74. Instead he told tales of how when he heard Hubbard yelling it was Hubbard's research on OT 10. (!!!)

When the tall tale was presented of Hubbard having "causatively discarded his healthy body because it had become an impediment to research, research that could only be dine completely separate from the body" - requiring for some reason the killing of the body - Denk kept his mouth shut, except to tell tales about Hubbard courageously researching the upper OT levels and, apparently, accidentally electrocuting himself on his electrical OT 10 research. :p


At around 45:35 Jim Dincalci is interviewed about Hubbard the movie mogul, and at 47:38 RV Young is interviewed, Hubbard's death and accompanying "shore story" is addressed at 48:37.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

Thrak
8th April 2011, 10:06 AM
Last time I saw Denk he was still a "believer" smoking a cig bragging about how wog doctors don't understand cancer. :duh:

But when you look over all of Hubbo's radiation crap and think about the guy going on stage many, many times and think of all the books and recordings, I think you have to tip your cap as he must have been the greatest bullshitter in recent history - maybe ever. I mean it's unbelievable.

Dulloldfart
8th April 2011, 09:57 PM
Interesting statement by Robert Vaughn Young, but if you will excuse this piece of pedantry, LRH didn't sign his last will and testament. It was authorized with a thumbprint (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien591.html).

Huh? That page you linked to says, "The will was signed, dated, and imprinted with Hubbard's inked thumbprint." I seem to remember seeing the will with the signature online somewhere.

I imagine the thumbprint is genuine, although it wouldn't surprise me if the firm and normal-looking signature wasn't. Although it *would* surprise me if one of the principals involved testified that the signature was false.

Paul

Infinite
9th April 2011, 02:46 AM
. . . <snip> . . .
There was no murder and therefore no just reason for slandering Dr. Gene Denk.

A dead person can't be slandered and, in this particular instance, your accusation is FAIL because my statement is the truth. Sorry he's dead and all that, but lets not use it as an excuse to keep the shore stories alive.

SweetnessandLight
9th April 2011, 07:25 AM
http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/FACTnet-death.html

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/sigfraud.htm

http://kiwianon.com/forums/index.php?topic=579.0

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol7/hubbard.shtml


:coolwink:

lkwdblds
9th April 2011, 09:03 AM
Nice research and refs, Paul. You are right, there was no absolute evidence of other drugs in his body at that time, as this evidence was denied and an autopsy was denied. Still, the following is a pretty damning case against Dr. Denk:

"THE SUSPICIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES OF L. RON HUBBARD'S DEATH ,AND PURPORTED EXECUTION OF ALLEGED LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT PURPORTEDLY DATED JANUARY 25,1987 23. For many years prior to his death, Mr. Hubbard ingested various drugs, many of them allegedly hypnotic and psychiatric drugs, and other medications which were administered by certain assistants of Mr. Hubbard, such as a certain Andre Tabayoyon and Kim Douglas, whose testimony will be submitted with the Petitions sought to be filed herein. One of Mr.

Hubbard's own sons has also testified to these facts in prior proceedings.

24. During the two years before his death, a Dr. Gene Denk was in constant attendance upon Mr. Hubbard on a full time basis. Dr. Gene Denk is understood to be a duly licensed California physician.

25. Approximately two weeks before Mr. Hubbard died, Dr.

Denk left Mr. Hubbard's side in Creston, California and went on a gambling trip to Reno/Lake Tahoe, Nevada accompanied by his wife, Terri Gamboa, Rick Aznaran, and David Miscavige.

In essence, it appears that L. Ron Hubbard's medical support was intentionally withdrawn from him. Prior to this gambling expedition, David Miscavige was reported in prior testimony as stating, in effect, "the IRS indictments are about to come down. The only thing that will save us now is if the Old Man dies."

During their absence in Reno, Nevada, Mr. Hubbard suffered a crippling stroke. Upon information and belief, Mr. Hubbard received no medical attention from any physician licensed to practice in California, until Dr. Denk returned from Reno, Nevada. Dr. Denk had prescribed and administered a number of drugs to Mr. Hubbard, including the psychiatric drug Hydroxyzine (Vistaril) which is usually administered in combination with other hypnotic, psychotic and sedating narcotics and restricted drugs. Indeed, the Coroner's report indicates that there were "ten recent needle marks" in "the right gluteal area" of the dead body.

According to Dr. Denk's statement to the Coroner, Mr. Hubbard also had a "long history of chronic pancreatitis" (which is primarily cause by alcoholism) and a recent history of "dysphrasia." According to the Coroner, Dr. Denk also told the Coroner "of decedent's clinical history which supported a possible neurological problem;" thereby raising issues of cognitive capacity which Mr. Hubbard's personal representatives such as Norman F. Starkey, Sherman D. Lenske, Esq., and Earle Cooley, Esq. should have brought to the attention of this Court. Berry Declaration, Exhibit A, "Investigation," "Report on "Toxicology Report" Post Mortem Examination, 26. Mr. Hubbard's 1979, 1982 and 1983 testamentary instruments made no disposition of any copyrights which cannot, as a matter of law, be transferred by will. In addition, Mary Sue Hubbard had/has a fifty percent community property interest in each of these copyrights.

27. Immediately prior to Mr. Hubbard's death, Dr. Denk, Pat Broeker, Anne Broeker, Steven Pfauth, Ray Mithoff, and possibly others, were in attendance with Mr. Hubbard.

All of them are within the group defined herein as Hubbard's Successors as defined in paragraph 3 herein.

28. Upon information and belief, neither Mr. Hubbard's wife, Mary Sue Hubbard, nor any of his children were present at the time of his death, were not advised of his ailing health and imminent demise, and the Hubbard Successors purposefully deprived the Hubbard family of the opportunity to be with him at his death bed. One day before he died, with his cognitive capacity in serious question, Mr. Hubbard purportedly signed a new will and trust agreement providing, among other things, for purported transfers of the Disputed Works to the Hubbard Successors, and which made certain lesser testamentary provisions for Mr. Hubbard's wife and certain of his children. Significantly the inherently suspect alleged last minute will, for the very first time, purported to unlawfully transfer the Disputed Works to the Hubbard Successors notwithstanding the community property interest of his wife who had been married to him when each of the Disputed Works were allegedly written by Mr. Hubbard alone.

David Miscavige and Dr. Denk misrepresented the significance of the differences between the purported January 23, 1986 Will and the earlier testamentary instruments. Berry Decl.

Exhibit A, Investigation Report, page 4, 2nd full para.

Clearly, those misrepresentations of David Miscavige and Dr. Denk misled the coroner into concluding that there was no reason or motive to suspect foul play and therefore no need to investigate further. Upon information and belief, David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, and others participating provided no opportunity for any of the Hubbard Family members to be involved in these events.

29. The Coroner was unable, and not permitted, to conduct an autopsy of Mr. Hubbard's body. Mr. Hubbard's death was not reported to the authorities for many, many hours until attorney Earle Cooley, Esq. had traveled from Boston, Massachusetts to the ranch at Creston, California, had assessed the situation and then notified a funeral home which became suspicious as a result of the delay in reporting the death, and alerted the Coroner. Berry The provisions of the 1986 will are generally described on pages 6-8 of the draft Memorandum of Points and Authorities attached to the supporting Berry Declaration as Exhibit C."

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/was-hubbard-murdered.htm

Paul, I never saw Dr. Denk again after the late 80's - I moved out of Calif then. All he did for you was refer you to another place, a free place.

You were still in the SO then, right? That sort of thing is described in detail by the FESer who wrote the report on my second post. (click on it for details)

You say you were happy with Denk at the time. But could you have been prescribed something or given a test by him rather than referred elsewhere? At least he didn't misdiagnose you. Better a referral than a misdiagnosis.

Please click on the link I gave on my second post and read the full report.

I don't know if this gets mentioned later on on this thread but I was at the event where LRH's death was announced to the Scientology public and Dr. Denk spoke there and told a lot of lies. Also, I believe the video is available on youtube.

Dr. Denk made the statement that Hubbard's body was strong and he could have lived many more years if he had wished to live. Dr. Denk corroborated Pat Brokers earlier speech that Hubbard was in good physical shape but his body had now become an impediment to his doing higher research which required that he not have a body. It was stated that Ron simply announced to the Brokers that it was time for him to move on to research his next level, whereupon he lied down on his bed and instantly he was gone.

Dr. Denk did not look all that convincing when he lied for the Int Management Execs including Broker and DM. I left the event strongly suspecting that Hubbard had been ill and had died of natural causes. I underestimated how sick Hubbard actually was.
Lakey

AnonyMary
10th April 2011, 12:41 AM
I don't know if this gets mentioned later on on this thread but I was at the event where LRH's death was announced to the Scientology public and Dr. Denk spoke there and told a lot of lies. Also, I believe the video is available on youtube.

Dr. Denk made the statement that Hubbard's body was strong and he could have lived many more years if he had wished to live. Dr. Denk corroborated Pat Brokers earlier speech that Hubbard was in good physical shape but his body had now become an impediment to his doing higher research which required that he not have a body. It was stated that Ron simply announced to the Brokers that it was time for him to move on to research his next level, whereupon he lied down on his bed and instantly he was gone.

Dr. Denk did not look all that convincing when he lied for the Int Management Execs including Broker and DM. I left the event strongly suspecting that Hubbard had been ill and had died of natural causes. I underestimated how sick Hubbard actually was.
Lakey

I don't recall seeing him in any of the videos that are out on this event.

I was in another state visiting an org where they had the satellite of it from LA. I don't even recall Denk speaking at it, althought it was a weird nite for me, finding out Hubbard was dead and listening to all these new people speaking... wondering what to make of it all. Denk could have been in there somewhere......

Hubbard was ill. Did you ever read the coroner report? You can read it here by scrolling down the page at this link to the report links:

Operation Clambake presents: The death of L Ron Hubbard
http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/

ILove2Lurk
10th April 2011, 02:56 AM
Lakey,

That was Earle Cooley, the lawyer, who came up on the stage and made those statements you remembered hearing.

Here is a very recent posting from Sarge over on the MR blog:


sarge | April 8, 2011 at 3:29 am | Reply

Rachel, One other little story I would like to tell about Gene while you still have the stage. I already told you but I want to tell others about what a hero Gene was and how he saved LRH’s life. Early ’85 LRH was very sick. Pat was away (again) and Annie had been trying to get ahold of him. Gene kept insisting that LRH needed to go to the hospital. Of course LRH didn’t want to and because of the security situation at the time a trip to the hospital would have meant giving real names etc. Gene finally talked LRH and Annie into it and we loaded LRH into the back of the Subaru wagon. I put blankets down and pillows and LRH could barely walk so we half carried him into the back of the car. Gene and Annie left and I stayed to handle the ranch. LRH spent a week in the hospital in Santa Maria south of Creston. Gene stayed with LRH the whole time. If Gene hadn’t forced it LRH would have died early ’85. I was told LRH had pancreatitis but I think there were other problems. Love

The real situation was quite different than what was presented on the stage that night.

ILove2Lurk

Gottabrain
10th April 2011, 03:11 AM
I don't know if this gets mentioned later on on this thread but I was at the event where LRH's death was announced to the Scientology public and Dr. Denk spoke there and told a lot of lies. Also, I believe the video is available on youtube.

Dr. Denk made the statement that Hubbard's body was strong and he could have lived many more years if he had wished to live. Dr. Denk corroborated Pat Brokers earlier speech that Hubbard was in good physical shape but his body had now become an impediment to his doing higher research which required that he not have a body. It was stated that Ron simply announced to the Brokers that it was time for him to move on to research his next level, whereupon he lied down on his bed and instantly he was gone.

Dr. Denk did not look all that convincing when he lied for the Int Management Execs including Broker and DM. I left the event strongly suspecting that Hubbard had been ill and had died of natural causes. I underestimated how sick Hubbard actually was.
Lakey

I forgot about that until you mentioned it, Lakey. Good on ya for remembering.

Now that you mentioned it, he DID say that at the event. Almost word for word.

Andre Tabayoyan was always a very honest person, too. Unlike others, his loyalty was first and foremost to L Ron for personal reasons, not to Scientology. He did everything he could to expose what happened and the coverups of L Ron's death because he was his friend.

Andre and his wife, Mary, were good friends of mine in the SO. Andre was loyal to L Ron because L Ron ordered Andre picked up when he had been shipwrecked and actually saved his life. That is how they met. For this reason and his sworn personal loyalty, Andre was his personal bodyguard, valet, and many other things - working directly with Hubbard - for many, many years. Andre personally told me this story many times.

Their relationship and Andre's loyalty had nothing to do with belief in Scn. Afterward, the DM administration took the Tabayoyan's dearly loved son, Cassavius, away from them - with name change and all - causing the Tabayoyans unbelievable heartbreak.

Andre would certainly have seen and heard many negative stories about Hubbard but due to this personal loyalty, would not reveal most of these. Scientology and the SO, however, was another matter.

Point is - if there is ONE person in all of Scn that one would trust was truly L Ron's loyal friend for pure reasons having nothing to do with personal gain, Andre was it. The fact he wasn't even near Hubbard at that time was highly suspect and Andre's info and statements are dependably true. L Ron would have wanted him near him more than anyone else - unless he had completely lost his mind - and nobody would have been more able to physically protect him, either.

AnonyMary
10th April 2011, 04:39 AM
Lakey,

That was Earle Cooley, the lawyer, who came up on the stage and made those statements you remembered hearing.

Here is a very recent posting from Sarge over on the MR blog:


sarge | April 8, 2011 at 3:29 am | Reply

Rachel, One other little story I would like to tell about Gene while you still have the stage. I already told you but I want to tell others about what a hero Gene was and how he saved LRH’s life. Early ’85 LRH was very sick. Pat was away (again) and Annie had been trying to get ahold of him. Gene kept insisting that LRH needed to go to the hospital. Of course LRH didn’t want to and because of the security situation at the time a trip to the hospital would have meant giving real names etc. Gene finally talked LRH and Annie into it and we loaded LRH into the back of the Subaru wagon. I put blankets down and pillows and LRH could barely walk so we half carried him into the back of the car. Gene and Annie left and I stayed to handle the ranch. LRH spent a week in the hospital in Santa Maria south of Creston. Gene stayed with LRH the whole time. If Gene hadn’t forced it LRH would have died early ’85. I was told LRH had pancreatitis but I think there were other problems. Love

The real situation was quite different than what was presented on the stage that night.

ILove2Lurk

Thank you :thumbsup:

Veda
10th April 2011, 06:30 AM
Lakey,

That was Earle Cooley, the lawyer, who came up on the stage and made those statements you remembered hearing.

-snip-



Yep. Denk didn't appear at the event. That was Earle Cooley.

Here's Earle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UiwW4mKn2c

An 'RJ 67' excerpt played at the event for the faithful, followed by prolonged cheers and applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lPa3L7HEQA&feature=related

Back to reality and truth. In an interview from the BBC 'Secret Lives' program, around 48:00, R.V. Young tells of the invention of the shore story about Hubbard's death and his amazement that the membership bought it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

Jachs
10th April 2011, 07:17 AM
from Sarge over on the MR blog:

sarge | April 8, 2011 at 3:29 am | Reply
Early ’85 LRH was very sick. <snip> Gene finally talked LRH and Annie into it and we loaded LRH into the back of the Subaru wagon. LRH spent a week in the hospital in Santa Maria south of Creston. Gene stayed with LRH the whole time. If Gene hadn’t forced it LRH would have died early ’85. I was told LRH had pancreatitis but I think there were other problems. Love

The real situation was quite different than what was presented on the stage that night.

ILove2Lurk

The truth continues seeping out.

Infinite
10th April 2011, 03:26 PM
. . . <snip> . . . Andre and his wife, Mary, were good friends of mine in the SO. Andre was loyal to L Ron because L Ron ordered Andre picked up when he had been shipwrecked and actually saved his life. That is how they met. For this reason and his sworn personal loyalty, Andre was his personal bodyguard, valet, and many other things - working directly with Hubbard - for many, many years. Andre personally told me this story many times.

Their relationship and Andre's loyalty had nothing to do with belief in Scn. Afterward, the DM administration took the Tabayoyan's dearly loved son, Cassavius, away from them - with name change and all - causing the Tabayoyans unbelievable heartbreak . . . <snip> . . .

L Ron Hubbard saved Andre's life . . . and then crushed him.

Here's what I don't get about Scientology: how do you assist in the creation of a healthy society by destroying families?

Gottabrain
10th April 2011, 03:38 PM
L Ron Hubbard saved Andre's life . . . and then crushed him.

Here's what I don't get about Scientology: how do you assist in the creation of a healthy society by destroying families?

In all fairness, they were still a close family while L Ron was alive, but Andre was separated from L Ron during most of the 80s, which was strange. How or why this came about and by whose order is anyone's guess.

Mary was coerced to get an abortion under the DM management as well. The Tabayoyans were brutalized by Scn.


Lakey,

That was Earle Cooley, the lawyer, who came up on the stage and made those statements you remembered hearing.


Thanks very much for the correction. :thumbsup:

tiptoethrutheminefield
18th April 2011, 08:32 AM
I don't have any illuminating anecdotes about him, but all I can say is it makes me sick how I let my "Scientology family" push me into going to him.

He must have made a lot of money being in the money chain. I wonder if it ever bothered him that staff were being starved and denied medical care.

Lurker5
30th January 2013, 03:09 PM
:bump2: :bump2: :bump2: :thumbsup:

Thank you, GottaBrain :yes:.

Commander Birdsong
30th January 2013, 10:19 PM
Holy crappola - it never ceases to astonish me, the criminal behavior of the co$ that never goes 'public'. Would the USofA do anything even if it did?

??????? Truly, I am not sure. :confused2:

yeah.

me too.

thank heaven, the bill of rights and alan turing for esmb

Auditor's Toad
30th January 2013, 11:19 PM
I knew Gene Denk both before & after he went " over the rainbow ".

He came back a very different man. A once working Dr. became a reclusive couch potatoe.

Even back then I wondered if he saw too much - and I expect he did. No proof.

Caroline
30th January 2013, 11:30 PM
Thanks for this interesting thread and info, Gottabrain and everyone. I'll add this declaration (http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=863&Itemid=93) concerning a personal medical situation, as it relates to Drs. Denk and Shields, Shaw Health Clinic, etc.

Lohan2008
10th March 2014, 08:48 AM
:bump2:

Smurf
10th March 2014, 09:34 AM
Andre Tabayoyan was always a very honest person, too. Unlike others, his loyalty was first and foremost to L Ron for personal reasons, not to Scientology. He did everything he could to expose what happened and the coverups of L Ron's death because he was his friend.

Their relationship and Andre's loyalty had nothing to do with belief in Scn. Afterward, the DM administration took the Tabayoyan's dearly loved son, Cassavius, away from them - with name change and all - causing the Tabayoyans unbelievable heartbreak.

Time heals wounds, they say. Let's hope father & son re-unite. This is a start. Casavius & his wife Irene are now on Facebook & he lists his real first name beside his adopted name. He looks just like his dad.

6915

https://www.facebook.com/michael.przybylski.98

https://www.facebook.com/irene.smid

Casavius' aunt (Mary's sister) posted an old family photo... "dad, sis mary, andre and cassavius [michael] in late 70's i think.."

6916

JustSheila
10th March 2014, 11:08 AM
Time heals wounds, they say. Let's hope father & son re-unite. This is a start. Casavius & his wife Irene are now on Facebook & he lists his real first name beside his adopted name. He looks just like his dad.

6915

https://www.facebook.com/michael.przybylski.98

https://www.facebook.com/irene.smid

Casavius' aunt (Mary's sister) posted an old family photo... "dad, sis mary, andre and cassavius [michael] in late 70's i think.."

6916

YAY!! Oh Smurf, I really hope their family gets together again! Thanks for this. Cassavius (Michael Przybylski) going public is definitely a step in the right direction.