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haiqu
10th February 2011, 01:48 AM
Someone just pointed out this interview to me via email. In it, our Katie denies that Scientology has anything to do with aliens. At all. In fact she says she hasn't heard of it "in all the three generations" her family has been involved.

Jesus Kate. Your grandparents were on Ron's staff at St. Hill. Both parents are OT, as are you.

You never heard of the Fourth Invaders, the Fifth Invaders, the Marcabian Confederacy? Were you asleep during the Study Tapes?

Kate denies aliens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KTTirB9ZFo)

Now if Kerrie-Anne had mentioned something confidential I could understand the denial, but this is ludicrous.

WE ALIENS ARE NOT AMUSED.

Wisened One
10th February 2011, 01:51 AM
DENY EVERYTHING, huh? :whatever: :eyeroll:

UmbalumTeapot
10th February 2011, 01:53 AM
This is why these things must always be archived.

Even now, only after a couple of years, the videos of Tommy Davis stating, as fact, Live on US TV that the whole concept of Xenu was ridiculous is not a video clip that pops up readily.

Not long after he admitted it was true, again Live on US TV and also in his taped "I cannot talk about that, its sacred" interviews.

:thumbsup:

Sindy
10th February 2011, 02:01 AM
She has to deny it. She has no other choice.

When she goes on these shows she is a spokesperson for the church.

The church believes that this will lead into the disclosure of the OT3 material that is to be kept confidential and may harm someone if they actually find out about it. She has to lie about it and she and the church feel justified in doing so because it was never supposed to have been leaked in the first place and they are "protecting" the audience.

This is obvious, right?

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
10th February 2011, 02:07 AM
According to Hubbard, there's nothing wrong with lying.

It's all about the greatest good to bring in the greatest amount of cash into the cult.

Lying is not only ethically acceptable, it's mandatory ... unless you want your bank account cleaned out even further to pay for the extra interrogations and reprogramming that goes along with being honest.

haiqu
10th February 2011, 02:09 AM
She has to deny it. She has no other choice.

When she goes on these shows she is a spokesperson for the church.

The church believes that this will lead into the disclosure of the OT3 material that is to be kept confidential and may harm someone if they actually find out about it. She has to lie about it and she and the church feel justified in doing so because it was never supposed to have been leaked in the first place and they are "protecting" the audience.

This is obvious, right?

Wrong. Although material about aliens doesn't comprise a large amount of Scientology data, it's commonly available in non-confidential books and tapes, including the Student Hat Course. Why deny it?

I do see your point about not wanting to be led into discussing confidential material but that wasn't the thrust of the interview, which took place right after Jason Beghe defected in 2009.

haiqu
10th February 2011, 02:14 AM
According to Hubbard, there's nothing wrong with lying.

It's all about the greatest good to bring in the greatest amount of cash into the cult.

Lying is not only ethically acceptable, it's mandatory ... unless you want your bank account cleaned out even further to pay for the extra interrogations and reprogramming that goes along with being honest.

The PR Series talks about presenting "an acceptable truth" not outright lying. In this case, the truth is no less acceptable than the lie so it didn't need to be hidden.

Lying, per LRH, is an attempt to control. It might have something to do with covert OSA ops but isn't mainstream Scientology at all.

Mystic
10th February 2011, 02:17 AM
Hallucinations do have their drawbacks.

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
10th February 2011, 02:19 AM
The PR Series talks about presenting "an acceptable truth" not outright lying. In this case, the truth is no less acceptable than the lie so it didn't need to be hidden.

Lying, per LRH, is an attempt to control. It might have something to do with covert OSA ops but isn't mainstream Scientology at all.

Hubbard was a compulsive liar himself.

Everybody posting on this board knows that the bottom line is ....Telling the truth while in the cult about a subject which causes a "PR flap", will bring consequences and is the equivalent to throwing away money.

An open and honest Scientology is a nonexistent Scientology

haiqu
10th February 2011, 02:22 AM
Hubbard was a compulsive liar himself.

Everybody posting on this board knows that the bottom line is ....Telling the truth while in the cult about a subject which causes a "PR flap", will bring consequences and is the equivalent to throwing away money.

An open and honest Scientology is a nonexistent Scientology

How about this theory then: Hubbard included enough lies to ensure that the subject couldn't be duplicated, and thus as-ised out of existence?

Naah, fuck that. Even he wasn't that clever.

NCSP
10th February 2011, 02:28 AM
Aliens Deny Kate Ceberano in Scn

"Have you seen her in the Org lately, Klaatu?"
"Nnnnnnnnnegative."

Hurts, doesn't it, Kate?

Sindy
10th February 2011, 02:28 AM
Wrong. Although material about aliens doesn't comprise a large amount of Scientology data, it's commonly available in non-confidential books and tapes, including the Student Hat Course. Why deny it?

I do see your point about not wanting to be led into discussing confidential material but that wasn't the thrust of the interview, which took place right after Jason Beghe defected in 2009.

I see. I didn't watch the video put simply went by the title which says the was denying OT3.

Infinite
10th February 2011, 02:34 AM
Wrong. Although material about aliens doesn't comprise a large amount of Scientology data, it's commonly available in non-confidential books and tapes, including the Student Hat Course. Why deny it?

I do see your point about not wanting to be led into discussing confidential material but that wasn't the thrust of the interview, which took place right after Jason Beghe defected in 2009.

I'm sure Hubbard said exposure to the Xenu / alien data would lead to death.


Church dogma regards OT III as a dangerous process which can lead to pneumonia, to lack of sleep or even to death if not run correctly. In Church of Scientology of California v. Kaufman, it was noted that the defendant had been required to sign a waiver to the effect that "the Scientology Organization, its branches and members, and L. Ron Hubbard are not responsible for anything that might happen to my body or mind on OT III".

- reference Church of Scientology of California v. Kaufman, [1972] F.S.R. 591 per Goff J - in the Chancery Division of the High Court

guanoloco
10th February 2011, 03:23 AM
How about this theory then: Hubbard included enough lies to ensure that the subject couldn't be duplicated, and thus as-ised out of existence?

Naah, fuck that. Even he wasn't that clever.

WOW! Hey!! I never thought of this...

...that would explain ditching his first wife, hooking up with a black magic free-sex Alister Crowley anti-Christ cult and bigamously wedding a chick from there after sex orgies to create the "moon child" anti-Christ, and later denouncing their child while kidnapping that child, begging the VA for medical benefits and psychiatric care simultaneously claiming that he healed himself from non-existent war wounds never received in valorous combat that was never engaged upon while denouncing psychiatrists as the single source of whole track collapse through all space and time for thousands of trillions of sundry years and portraying self as a valorous courageous soul, ...snip for brevity but contains decades of deceptions..., and dying with Vistaril in his veins after writing reams and volumes and recording 100s of pounds of tape denouncing the "evils" of drugs and denying PCs auditing for up to a week for ingesting aspirin and "solving" the source of asthma and allergy psychosomatic dramatizations after his wife and friends served prison time from his failed criminal plan of infiltrating various government entities having written "policies" claiming that Scientology was anything but a political group and illegally conducting espionage in said government roles and wind up hiding from criminal indictment after volumes of passages regarding "overts", "withholds", "blows", "honesty", "ethics", "integrity", "confront"; thus proving beyond a shadow of a doubt how much of a spineless coward he truly was - not to mention that horrible stint of "music" he made - EGAD!!!...

Yeah! It's all coming together now and really making sense...these things were done so that nobody can "as-is" Scientology and then Scientology will last longer! Yeah! That's really working out well. What a clever plan...isn't like these things are the very items that are destroying Scientology and proving to the whole world at large that its lower than a mudpuppy's underbelly.

Yeah! How's that working out?

Sorry, haiqu, for being so sarcastic and 1.1 as I'm interpreting your comment right along those lines.

I assume that you still are a practicing Scientologists and probably believe that others have squirreled Ron's tech to a degree that it's unrecognizable. If I missed a joke here then the yolk is really on my face!!

However, I for one think it unconscionable to conclude that Ron had something below the radar to preserve Scientology as that fits right into a lunatic zealot conspiracy theory, IMHO, and would violate a "hidden data line" and "if it isn't written, it isn't true", once again IMHO. The idea that he "lied" to "preserve" Scientology pisses me off. The truth could serve and you're certainly familiar with the implications of a case that lies when the truth can serve.

The fact that you're willing to see otherwise is all too reminiscent of the self-delusion that chained me to the con for too long.

I would rather do the Occam's Razor deal and see the lies and deception for what they are...had they existed early on the track and phased out over time I would be more receptive that Ron found truth. That evidence is lacking, IMHO, and your rejoinder as to it's lacking or the opposite is certainly welcomed.

However, the fact that I've been conned is all too evident to me and that is very true for me.

I do NOT intend to offend you, rather my goal is to shed light on your stated theory from my perspective. If you were being facetious then I apologize in advance.

I find little as to being integrous regarding Hubbard and Scientology, squirreled or otherwise.

Once again, if my aim is off I apologize. I would like to have you set me straight on this matter and I welcome further discourse.

haiqu
10th February 2011, 03:26 AM
I'm sure Hubbard said exposure to the Xenu / alien data would lead to death.

Not in so many words. He did say that "viewing this material is designed to kill you." But the material he was referring to was the ENTIRETY of the incidents of OT III, not the parts you actually run on the OT III level itself. The serious hazard is in freewheeling through it without any remedy, which can and does happen.

Mostly it was made confidential because some people very early on were given parts of it, and immediately used the data to cave others in purposely.



- reference Church of Scientology of California v. Kaufman, [1972] F.S.R. 591 per Goff J - in the Chancery Division of the High Court

Secondary sources or opinions aren't Scientology tech. Bzzzt.

haiqu
10th February 2011, 03:29 AM
I do NOT intend to offend you, rather my goal is to shed light on your stated theory from my perspective. If you were facetious then I apologize in advance.

Hey yeah dude, I was being facetious. Nice rant though. :thumbsup:

haiqu
10th February 2011, 03:32 AM
I see. I didn't watch the video put simply went by the title which says the was denying OT3.

Ah yeah, I'm not responsible for the misleading original YouTube title. Thanks for rechecking.

guanoloco
10th February 2011, 04:00 AM
Hey yeah dude, I was being facetious. Nice rant though. :thumbsup:


Best you ever seen...:coolwink:

HelluvaHoax!
10th February 2011, 04:09 AM
The PR Series talks about presenting "an acceptable truth" not outright lying. In this case, the truth is no less acceptable than the lie so it didn't need to be hidden.

Lying, per LRH, is an attempt to control. It might have something to do with covert OSA ops but isn't mainstream Scientology at all.

Is that a joke? Lying is not mainstream Scn??? LOL

You were never in a reg cycle to buy the promised abilities on the Grade Chart? Those are 100% all lies.

You never bought the book DMSMH that guaranteed Clear in 20 hours with perfect memory and no psychosomatics ever again?

You never listened to Ron brag about the supernatural state of OT that he guaranteed you would attain?

You never spent time on training to learn the secrets of the universe?

You never heard a Scientologist talk about "total freedom"?

I will make you a bet.

Put all of Ron's books in a pile. Turn off all the lights. Send a blind man into that room to randomly pick one of the books. Have a chimpanzee open that book to any page. Throw a dart at that page and see where it lands. Read that sentence aloud. I am betting that there is a lie in that sentence. (You can try this experiment at home without blind people or monkeys!)

Sindy
10th February 2011, 04:20 AM
Is that a joke?

You were never in a reg cycle to buy the promised abilities on the Grade Chart? Those are 100% all lies.

You never bought the book DMSMH that guaranteed Clear in 20 hours with perfect memory and no psychosomatics ever again?

You never listened to Ron brag about the supernatural state of OT that he guaranteed you would attain?

You never spent time on training to learn the secrets of the universe?

You never heard a Scientologist talk about "total freedom"?

I will make you a bet.

Put all of Ron's books in a pile. Turn off all the lights. Send a blind man into that room to randomly pick one of the books. Have a chimpanzee open that book to any page. Throw a dart at that page and see where it lands. Read that sentence aloud. I am better that there is a lie in that sentence. (You can try this experiment at home without blind people or monkeys!)

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: That was quite a visual.

haiqu
10th February 2011, 04:26 AM
Is that a joke? Lying is not mainstream Scn??? LOL

No, this time I'm deadly serious.


You were never in a reg cycle to buy the promised abilities on the Grade Chart? Those are 100% all lies.

Since I have attained some of them, you're full of it.


You never bought the book DMSMH that guaranteed Clear in 20 hours with perfect memory and no psychosomatics ever again?

Page and quote thanks, or STFU. No such guarantee was made in DMSMH.


You never listened to Ron brag about the supernatural state of OT that he guaranteed you would attain?

I've heard him mention the possible states that an OT might attain, he didn't ever make promises or guarantees about whether any particular individual could attain them.


You never spent time on training to learn the secrets of the universe?

You never heard a Scientologist talk about "total freedom"?

You're confusing the church sales bullshit with tech, pal.


I will make you a bet.

Put all of Ron's books in a pile. Turn off all the lights. Send a blind man into that room to randomly pick one of the books. Have a chimpanzee open that book to any page. Throw a dart at that page and see where it lands. Read that sentence aloud. I am betting that there is a lie in that sentence. (You can try this experiment at home without blind people or monkeys!)

I'm a bit short of monkeys and darts, but I tried your bet. The cursor landed on an LRHED about tape duplication. Meh. Point disproved.

More bullshit, from someone else who wants to control me.

Sindy
10th February 2011, 04:29 AM
This oughta be fun.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQ4qWlMBfbnHQaTVcT6IgrTl5ucz_sU WessLKLxrZZdX-fd37Y

guanoloco
10th February 2011, 04:48 AM
You're confusing the church sales bullshit with tech, pal.

TOTAL FREEDOM, would be existence without barriers. (SH Spec 20, 6106C26)

WTF, haiqu?

You want me to go line by line?


WTF??? NO MORE DECEPTION, SELF OR OTHERWISE!!!

HelluvaHoax!
10th February 2011, 04:48 AM
---snipped to avoid things you will cringe about later----


You're confusing the church sales bullshit with tech, pal.


More bullshit, from someone else who wants to control me.



The cool thing about your post was that I actually could not decide if you were joking or not. Like when you challenged me to produce dox or stfu about what Ron promised as the attributes of a clear in DMSMH.
Dude, dude, dude, dude! Are you serious? I still don't actually know.

I want to control you? LOLOLOL Dude, you're killin me. You're joking right? I am being out-hoaxed, right?

I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE that line about "You're confusing the church sales bullshit with tech, pal." Brilliant parody of really bad dialogue from a 1950's gangster b-movie! That "pal" part slays! LOL

Jimmymac
10th February 2011, 06:03 AM
Someone just pointed out this interview to me via email. In it, our Katie denies that Scientology has anything to do with aliens. At all. In fact she says she hasn't heard of it "in all the three generations" her family has been involved.

Jesus Kate. Your grandparents were on Ron's staff at St. Hill. Both parents are OT, as are you.

You never heard of the Fourth Invaders, the Fifth Invaders, the Marcabian Confederacy? Were you asleep during the Study Tapes?
.

She is a fucking lying swine. Should could have said something like "i don't want to get in to it" instead she just baldfaced lied.

thetanic
10th February 2011, 08:01 AM
Someone just pointed out this interview to me via email. In it, our Katie denies that Scientology has anything to do with aliens. At all. In fact she says she hasn't heard of it "in all the three generations" her family has been involved.

Jesus Kate. Your grandparents were on Ron's staff at St. Hill. Both parents are OT, as are you.

Maybe she had an MU.

HelluvaHoax!
10th February 2011, 09:06 AM
Maybe she had an MU.

Yeah, she had unhandled MU'S.

Maniacally Ubiquitous Source.

Veda
10th February 2011, 09:20 AM
"Never use lies in PR" is what Hubbard called "PR of PR," or "nicey nicey PR."

It's that part of Scientology PR tech, placed on display, that shrouds the rest (less visible) part of Scientology PR tech.


"Statements one makes can be curved. 'She had a birthday party', becomes 'The delinquents inner circle gathered yesterday for a sex orgy and pretended to the police that it was a birthday party. No one was jailed'."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'PR Series 18'.


"The only safe public opinion to head for is they love us and are in a frenzy of hate against the enemy... this means standard wartime propaganda is what one is doing... Know the mores of your public opinion, what they hate. That's the enemy. What they love. That's you."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'Battle Tactics'.


The overt/covert nature of Scientology: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=392666&postcount=42

'Scientology PR tech' thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1911&highlight=scientology+tech


L. Ron Hubbard, on "inventing facts," from an April 1955 'HCOB':

"A datum is an invention which has become agreed upon and solidified... When it is thoroughly agreed upon it becomes, then, a truth.

"The word 'lie' is simply 'an invention with a bad connotation'... Thus society frowns upon the invention of facts."

Another notable quote, this from the loose-lipped 'PDC' lectures, "It's a trap not being able to prevaricate."

And then there's the old reliable, 'TR-L', the Training Routine for Lying.

And, of course, there's the first half of the Fair Game Law, "Trick and lie to."

And then there's Scientology's multi-layered PR Tech, which, of course, per the pattern, dishonestly announces its own honesty while, further in, instructs on how to manipulate, and further in still, instructs on how to mislead and lie. (Sneaky.)

These things are as much a part of subject as the "auditing comm cycle," and discharging tension by finding "earlier similars" (wording is Korzybski's), and these ingredients, along with others, combine - per the founder's design - making Scientology.

In Scientology, lying is only supposed to flow downward, with Hubbard and the hierarchy free to lie to Scientologists, but Scientologists expected to obey, and to open their minds completely to inspection by the organization.

It shouldn't be surprising that a 'Good Scientologist' is willing to lie to those he sees as below him: the "DBs," "SPs," and the "Wogs."

It's quite a system: an 'applied philosophy' that make liars out of good people, who - themselves - have been lied to.

The first step to unraveling this mess is to describe it. :)

Jachs
10th February 2011, 09:50 AM
Is that a joke? Lying is not mainstream Scn??? LOL

You were never in a reg cycle to buy the promised abilities on the Grade Chart? Those are 100% all lies.

You never bought the book DMSMH that guaranteed Clear in 20 hours with perfect memory and no psychosomatics ever again?

You never listened to Ron brag about the supernatural state of OT that he guaranteed you would attain?

You never spent time on training to learn the secrets of the universe?

You never heard a Scientologist talk about "total freedom"?

I will make you a bet.

Put all of Ron's books in a pile. Turn off all the lights. Send a blind man into that room to randomly pick one of the books. Have a chimpanzee open that book to any page. Throw a dart at that page and see where it lands. Read that sentence aloud. I am betting that there is a lie in that sentence. (You can try this experiment at home without blind people or monkeys!)

Sounds like you have tried it with a monkey and a blind man in the dark Hoax?

The dart and reading one liners from the book that is.

Did the dart hit the monkey....?

Panda Termint
10th February 2011, 09:59 AM
Maybe she had an MU.
Nah, Kate and Lee both lied straight faced (kinda) to the Interviewer. I'm betting they regret having done so, credibility is currency.

HelluvaHoax!
10th February 2011, 11:02 AM
"Never use lies in PR" is what Hubbard called "PR of PR," or "nicey nicey PR."

It's that part of Scientology PR tech, placed on display, that shrouds the rest (less visible) part of Scientology PR tech.


"Statements one makes can be curved. 'She had a birthday party', becomes 'The delinquents inner circle gathered yesterday for a sex orgy and pretended to the police that it was a birthday party. No one was jailed'."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'PR Series 18'.


"The only safe public opinion to head for is they love us and are in a frenzy of hate against the enemy... this means standard wartime propaganda is what one is doing... Know the mores of your public opinion, what they hate. That's the enemy. What they love. That's you."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'Battle Tactics'.


The overt/covert nature of Scientology: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=392666&postcount=42

'Scientology PR tech' thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1911&highlight=scientology+tech


L. Ron Hubbard, on "inventing facts," from an April 1955 'HCOB':

"A datum is an invention which has become agreed upon and solidified... When it is thoroughly agreed upon it becomes, then, a truth.

"The word 'lie' is simply 'an invention with a bad connotation'... Thus society frowns upon the invention of facts."

Another notable quote, this from the loose-lipped 'PDC' lectures, "It's a trap not being able to prevaricate."

And then there's the old reliable, 'TR-L', the Training Routine for Lying.

And, of course, there's the first half of the Fair Game Law, "Trick and lie to."

And then there's Scientology's multi-layered PR Tech, which, of course, per the pattern, dishonestly announces its own honesty while, further in, instructs on how to manipulate, and further in still, instructs on how to mislead and lie. (Sneaky.)

These things are as much a part of subject as the "auditing comm cycle," and discharging tension by finding "earlier similars" (wording is Korzybski's), and these ingredients, along with others, combine - per the founder's design - making Scientology.

In Scientology, lying is only supposed to flow downward, with Hubbard and the hierarchy free to lie to Scientologists, but Scientologists expected to obey, and to open their minds completely to inspection by the organization.

It shouldn't be surprising that a 'Good Scientologist' is willing to lie to those he sees as below him: the "DBs," "SPs," and the "Wogs."

It's quite a system: an 'applied philosophy' that make liars out of good people, who - themselves - have been lied to.

The first step to unraveling this mess is to describe it. :)


A really brilliant overview of Scientology's scripturally blessed lying from the top down. This is an extraordinary look at the radar screen when all Hubbard's deflecting countermeasures & chaff* is not present.

It's not an easy task to reduce it to this level of clarity and simplicity. Outstanding!



* Chaff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)

HelluvaHoax!
10th February 2011, 11:11 AM
Sounds like you have tried it with a monkey and a blind man in the dark Hoax?

The dart and reading one liners from the book that is.

Did the dart hit the monkey....?


The experiment had some unexpected wrinkles...

The blind man was promised that Scientology would cure his blindness like it did for Ron. Not only did he have to suffer the the loss of his dream to see again...but he lost his savings as well before storming off.

The monkey fared no better. He was promised to become a homo-sapiens that could read. But when he realized he was still a monkey, he took the dart and stabbed the reg in the ass before leaping out the window to a nearby tree and escaping from a Simian Org blow-drill team.

Scientific testing is a bitch! :D

Infinite
10th February 2011, 11:47 AM
Not in so many words. He did say that "viewing this material is designed to kill you." But the material he was referring to was the ENTIRETY of the incidents of OT III, not the parts you actually run on the OT III level itself. The serious hazard is in freewheeling through it without any remedy, which can and does happen.

Ummm . . . are you sure? I would've thought if that were the case there would have been a few million extra deaths since the OTIII material was released and, you know, perhaps, maybe, the media or health authorities might have got on to it.

Dulloldfart
10th February 2011, 11:56 AM
Ummm . . . are you sure? I would've thought if that were the case there would have been a few million extra deaths since the OTIII material was released and, you know, perhaps, maybe, the media or health authorities might have got on to it.

The excuse on that is that most non-scios are far below the awareness needed to get sucked into the actual incident, so they are safe. It's only scios who are at risk. (In RJ67 Hubbard says, " No one is in danger of colliding with this at lower levels, since it concerns the formation of the society itself in which we live.")

Paul

Infinite
10th February 2011, 12:05 PM
The excuse on that is that most non-scios are far below the awareness needed to get sucked into the actual incident, so they are safe. It's only scios who are at risk. (In RJ67 Hubbard says, " No one is in danger of colliding with this at lower levels, since it concerns the formation of the society itself in which we live.")

Paul

Thanks Paul.

But . . . but . . . but . . . what about Body Thetans? Aren't they supposed to be even less aware than simple dumb wogs?

Panda Termint
10th February 2011, 12:19 PM
Hubbard didn't actually say "viewing these materials" would kill, deny sleep, cause pneumonia etc as far as I recall. I'm pretty sure that he said "anyone attempting to solve" the so-called Wall-of-Fire/Xenu incident would be liable to these "dire consequences".
We've had much discussion about this, including the installed fear/phobia about these materials infecting scientologists on a couple of OT3 threads. Veda probably knows the exact links or you could just read the OT3 threads, there are a few of them.

Chess
10th February 2011, 12:21 PM
I don't get into much snide stuff about people but Kate is a dork. Meet her twice and severely regretted the second time as one too many. I was simply a lowly auditor, staff type person, not fit enough to be in her presence, the falsity of her personality was sickly sweet.
If she's lucky she will end up being the best example of egg on face but I doubt it, she'll go down with the ship as the aider and abetter she is.

Voltaire's Child
10th February 2011, 07:26 PM
Well, they are sworn to secrecy about it. I guess she figures that's the only way to deal with public queries in that case.

I don't care if someone lies about Xenu. I do care if they lie about stuff they know is actually happening, like mistreatment and imprisonment of staff and recruiting of children and coerced abortions and outrageous regging practices and disconnection.

Wisened One
10th February 2011, 07:35 PM
I do care if they lie about stuff they know is actually happening, like mistreatment and imprisonment of staff and recruiting of children and coerced abortions and outrageous regging practices and disconnection.

Yeah, and that's if they know in the first place that that is occurring. (Celebs probably don't, but I'm pretty sure TC has at least an idea!)

Voltaire's Child
10th February 2011, 07:43 PM
Yah. I once had an exchange with Lulu Belle here and she said that she thought celebs knew more than one would think. Anne Archer is Tommy Davis' Mom, for example, isn't she? Some of them probably know far more than one might suspect.

Also, they have PR people who investigate everything they get into...

But, yeah, this Kate Cerberano person probably felt cornered...I wonder if she knows anything about RPFing and slave labor. That's a far more relevant issue that does some sect believe in space aliens. I mean, fuck, Jews and Christians believe in space aliens. Just read the bible some time.

Sindy
10th February 2011, 08:25 PM
Well, they are sworn to secrecy about it. I guess she figures that's the only way to deal with public queries in that case.

I don't care if someone lies about Xenu. I do care if they lie about stuff they know is actually happening, like mistreatment and imprisonment of staff and recruiting of children and coerced abortions and outrageous regging practices and disconnection.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

uniquemand
10th February 2011, 09:09 PM
There are no aliens in scientology. I know this, because I was in scientology. Trust me, I was looking for aliens. There were none.

Voltaire's Child
10th February 2011, 09:36 PM
Excepting yourself, of course. :p:coolwink:

Clueless Morgan
10th February 2011, 09:46 PM
I personally don't get the masquerade around aliens myself - every religion has its strange beliefs. I mean, how does this sound:

Christianity: The son of a carpenter who lived about 2000 years ago is the son of God and came back from the dead after he was hanged on a cross. This was shortly after he used his miraculous powers to do enormous good in the world, such as turning water into booze at a pal's wedding.

Islam: A random person walks into a temple, smashes some glass and thus proves that he is, in fact, a prophet.

Judaism: An almighty entity created all that exists about 5000 years ago, such as the woman, which was made of only one rib of the man, meaning she was filled with a lot of hot air. They then had three sons but for some reason humanity continued to exist without them having to have incest or any more children.

Buddhism: An Indian royal walked through a city, gave up eating and consequently became so wise he didnt need a body anymore.

Just goes to prove every religion has its wacky stories.

And to be frank, I find aliens a lot more realistic than 6-legged, 6-armed, 6-eyed, 6-winged beings with a blood-curdling voice, otherwise known as biblical seraphim.

Voltaire's Child
10th February 2011, 09:49 PM
Because, rightly or wrongly, Scn posits the idea that certain things should be revealed on/after certain other events. This is not a concept unique to Scn, by any means.

Having said that, I will say that having the Xenu stuff all over the net hasn't hurt anybody but that IS the reason for confidentiality. At least, it's the "tech" reason. There are, of course, indications that since a lot of this is about the insane amount of money they charge for OT levels, that "confidentiality" is also a control mechanism.

guanoloco
10th February 2011, 10:22 PM
"Never use lies in PR" is what Hubbard called "PR of PR," or "nicey nicey PR."

It's that part of Scientology PR tech, placed on display, that shrouds the rest (less visible) part of Scientology PR tech.


"Statements one makes can be curved. 'She had a birthday party', becomes 'The delinquents inner circle gathered yesterday for a sex orgy and pretended to the police that it was a birthday party. No one was jailed'."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'PR Series 18'.


"The only safe public opinion to head for is they love us and are in a frenzy of hate against the enemy... this means standard wartime propaganda is what one is doing... Know the mores of your public opinion, what they hate. That's the enemy. What they love. That's you."

L. Ron Hubbard, 'Battle Tactics'.


The overt/covert nature of Scientology: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=392666&postcount=42

'Scientology PR tech' thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1911&highlight=scientology+tech


L. Ron Hubbard, on "inventing facts," from an April 1955 'HCOB':

"A datum is an invention which has become agreed upon and solidified... When it is thoroughly agreed upon it becomes, then, a truth.

"The word 'lie' is simply 'an invention with a bad connotation'... Thus society frowns upon the invention of facts."

Another notable quote, this from the loose-lipped 'PDC' lectures, "It's a trap not being able to prevaricate."

And then there's the old reliable, 'TR-L', the Training Routine for Lying.

And, of course, there's the first half of the Fair Game Law, "Trick and lie to."

And then there's Scientology's multi-layered PR Tech, which, of course, per the pattern, dishonestly announces its own honesty while, further in, instructs on how to manipulate, and further in still, instructs on how to mislead and lie. (Sneaky.)

These things are as much a part of subject as the "auditing comm cycle," and discharging tension by finding "earlier similars" (wording is Korzybski's), and these ingredients, along with others, combine - per the founder's design - making Scientology.

In Scientology, lying is only supposed to flow downward, with Hubbard and the hierarchy free to lie to Scientologists, but Scientologists expected to obey, and to open their minds completely to inspection by the organization.

It shouldn't be surprising that a 'Good Scientologist' is willing to lie to those he sees as below him: the "DBs," "SPs," and the "Wogs."

It's quite a system: an 'applied philosophy' that make liars out of good people, who - themselves - have been lied to.

The first step to unraveling this mess is to describe it. :)

This is a very good write up, Veda.

Like so many things this illustrates the composite social veneer tone of the entity and then the actual tone of the "thetan", in this case as in so many presumably Hubbard's tone.

I tried to find examples but it's too daunting to pour through gobs and volumes of references.

The ones I was looking for were the high-toned altruistic gloss of the 2D book where the husband just continues to purchase the ruined fence gates that the wife backs over without chastising or criticizing compared to the PL reference where the Disem Sec or letter reg or something just smashed their 5th typewriter or something - it's an entirely different stance taken. In the PL the continued damage is "known", the result of R/Ses and suppressive = deep-sixed with guns.

The other was the comment that aberrative personalities hoard cash to never be spent - contrasted with virtually all finance PLs where reserves are hoarded to never be spent.

If you know these references share 'em.

Veda
10th February 2011, 11:14 PM
I personally don't get the masquerade around aliens myself - every religion has its strange beliefs.

-snip-



If you've read the complete CC - OT 3 materials, which I doubt, since the complete materials are not easily available on the Net, the first thing you'd notice is that these are not just strange beliefs but intimate mental procedures done over a long period of time - add NOTs to that and the time becomes many years, a decade or more.

Comparing Scientology to "other religions" is a bogus argument, IMO.

Free to shine
10th February 2011, 11:41 PM
Kate is a 3rd generation scientologist and has been raised from birth with many restrictions of viewpoint. It is normal to "not know" and avoid entheta and she also will know that to disagree or violate the 'confidential stuff' in any way will threaten the very fabric of her family life. You grow up between a rock and a hard place and it takes tremendous courage to break away from that kind of extended family scientology situation. She is a lovely lady at heart and I really hope that one day she will be able to taste the freedom of a normal life.

Panda Termint
11th February 2011, 12:28 AM
:goodposting: Agreed. :goodposting:

Outethicsofficer
11th February 2011, 12:39 AM
Kate is a 3rd generation scientologist and has been raised from birth with many restrictions of viewpoint. It is normal to "not know" and avoid entheta and she also will know that to disagree or violate the 'confidential stuff' in any way will threaten the very fabric of her family life. You grow up between a rock and a hard place and it takes tremendous courage to break away from that kind of extended family scientology situation. She is a lovely lady at heart and I really hope that one day she will be able to taste the freedom of a normal life.

Nicely put Free. I agree, I recall her in days long since gone when she had cause to visit the AO in ANZO, she was delightful.
James

Free to shine
11th February 2011, 01:16 AM
Nicely put Free. I agree, I recall her in days long since gone when she had cause to visit the AO in ANZO, she was delightful.
James

She is a delightful person, I knew her in days gone by.

It is so, so difficult for any 'generational' scientologist and 100 times harder for someone in the public eye. Can you imagine what it's like to have grandparents, parents, siblings, spouse, friends and support system and goodness knows who else all part of the scio fabric of your whole life? There is no wiggle room at all! To break free of that - presuming one is courageous enough to go seek alternative views - is a huge thing. I personally think she has that courage, though it may take having some other members of the family wake up as well.

Kate, if you ever get to read this - there are people who will help! Your career would not suffer, in fact it would probably take off when the stigma of scientology is removed.

Sekh
13th February 2011, 04:56 PM
I personally don't get the masquerade around aliens myself - every religion has its strange beliefs. I mean, how does this sound:

Christianity: The son of a carpenter who lived about 2000 years ago is the son of God and came back from the dead after he was hanged on a cross. This was shortly after he used his miraculous powers to do enormous good in the world, such as turning water into booze at a pal's wedding.

Islam: A random person walks into a temple, smashes some glass and thus proves that he is, in fact, a prophet.

Judaism: An almighty entity created all that exists about 5000 years ago, such as the woman, which was made of only one rib of the man, meaning she was filled with a lot of hot air. They then had three sons but for some reason humanity continued to exist without them having to have incest or any more children.

Buddhism: An Indian royal walked through a city, gave up eating and consequently became so wise he didnt need a body anymore.

Just goes to prove every religion has its wacky stories.

And to be frank, I find aliens a lot more realistic than 6-legged, 6-armed, 6-eyed, 6-winged beings with a blood-curdling voice, otherwise known as biblical seraphim.


:iagree: The thing is, if you ask a Christian if he believes in this carpenter-turned-God-story, he says: "sure, it's the truth, my Bible says so!"
Same thing with the other religions, they have their wacky creeds in the eyes of non-believers, but they don't hide them.

Scientology does. If you walk into a Scilon-church and ask about Xenu, or aliens, they kick you out (after selling you a book).
That doesn't happen when you enter a Christian church and ask if they believe in Jesus. Well, they might try to sell you a book, but you won't be kicked out.

Personally I don't care if people believe in Xenu. The beef I have with Co$ is about the way the organization treats its members. The Fair Game, the SP's, the Disconnections, the coerced Abortions, the Moneygrabbing, The RPF, the forced labour etcetera. And the lying, all the lying.

If CoS was just some wacky flying saucer cult, I wouldn't waste my precious time on it. Unfortunately it is something much more dangerous. Scientology HURTS people! That's what the protesting is about.

Voltaire's Child
13th February 2011, 06:16 PM
:iagree: The thing is, if you ask a Christian if he believes in this carpenter-turned-God-story, he says: "sure, it's the truth, my Bible says so!"
Same thing with the other religions, they have their wacky creeds in the eyes of non-believers, but they don't hide them.

Scientology does. If you walk into a Scilon-church and ask about Xenu, or aliens, they kick you out (after selling you a book).
That doesn't happen when you enter a Christian church and ask if they believe in Jesus. Well, they might try to sell you a book, but you won't be kicked out.

Personally I don't care if people believe in Xenu. The beef I have with Co$ is about the way the organization treats its members. The Fair Game, the SP's, the Disconnections, the coerced Abortions, the Moneygrabbing, The RPF, the forced labour etcetera. And the lying, all the lying.

If CoS was just some wacky flying saucer cult, I wouldn't waste my precious time on it. Unfortunately it is something much more dangerous. Scientology HURTS people! That's what the protesting is about.

Well, there are a couple of things you may not know about.

1) not everyone in CofS knows anything about Xenu. That's not til OTIII. So if you walk into an Org and ask about Xenu, at least half the people there won't know what you're talking about, if not more.

2) No one asks them about Xenu unless the person is actually trying to bait them. I used to be in CofS, and was on a critical forum somewhat like this one (but usenet) and people used to just scream Xenu at me and try to make me say it. I did, in fact, go ahead and discuss it but believe me, those people weren't trying to discuss anything. So if someone gets tossed out of a CofS for bringing up Xenu, well, my sympathies aren't with that person.

3) A number of other modalities (non Scn) have the theory that one learns about certain things before learning about other things. The later things are often considered forbidden. There're mystical traditions like that.

Having said that, I have not, myself, seen any problem or detriment to anyone with the Xenu stuff being all over the net. So I'm not in agreement with Scn on that.

Veda
14th February 2011, 09:00 AM
In the year 2011, those doing - not just reading snippets on the Net, but seriously, as Scientologists, doing - Hubbard's psychologically manipulative/hypnotic suggestion-laced confidential upper levels are more likely to be affected in a way, from which they will never recover, than those who did these levels, pre-Internet. There's so much information available nowadays, that those who are still vulnerable are likely to be less resilient and less intelligent that their predecessors. So, the potential for long term harm is greater.

The issue is not really Xenu, or universal history, or far out space opera, etc.; the issue is an elaborate bait-and-switch mind-game that begins with, mainly, asking and ends with, mainly, telling.

It's a process, not just a story. It's mind f__k wrapped in a seemingly benign counseling format.

Link to a thread that should contain a still functioning link to the OT levels: http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=6528

Mmmm... I can't get any of these links to work at this time, but what is called "Tech volume 14" has most of the OT level materials, and there's a functioning link to it somewhere. An examination of the full materials (apart from the Scientology trance), from Clearing Course materials onward, can be revealing, especially to those who did these levels years ago and have not looked at them since.

Sekh
14th February 2011, 01:08 PM
@VoltairesChild;

I know Xenu isn't common knowledge before OT 3, so maybe my example of mentioning the space opera at the local Org was not well chosen. What I only meant to say is this: Other faiths don't hide their basic dogma's from the interested, even when there are "mysteries of the faith" that beginners will not hear about straight away. No Christian denies the authority of the Bible, every Muslim will agree that Muhammad was the prophet of Allah. Even if the more esoteric meaning of some verses or sura's are kept to a later stage of training.

When asked a question like "What is it that a Scientologist believes in?" an interested newcomer will not get a straight answer. Just a personality test and a book to buy, and some great success stories about personal improvements and all the good that's been done for society. As an example, look at the new promo they made after the New York Times interview.
It boasts about all the good Scientology does but doesn't give a clue about what Scientologists believe.

On the official CoS-site interested public is invited to come to the local Orgs, to see for themselves what Scientology is about. But you don't get any information when you do so. That's what bothers me about the whole thing.
No need to put the deepest mysteries out in public, but some basic tenets would be nice. It would, at least, make the whole "church" thing more palatable for outsiders.

Apart from that, I presume Kate Ceberano is higher up than OT3. If so, she knows about the space opera, and still she blatantly denies its existence.
The lying, that's my most important objection. Specially when it comes from a group that always talks about ethics.

Sekh

Panda Termint
14th February 2011, 02:04 PM
Yes, there's no question about that. She lied.

Happy Days
14th February 2011, 10:33 PM
Yes, there's no question about that. She lied.

Or was it ... an acceptable truth and keeping her TR's in :)

Cause how could a celebrity say they had a 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' to their public.... only Richard Dreyfus, loved that movie too.

Panda Termint
15th February 2011, 01:32 AM
Yes, there's no question about that. She lied.


Or was it ... an acceptable truth and keeping her TR's in :)

Cause how could a celebrity say they had a 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' to their public.... only Richard Dreyfus, loved that movie too.
LOL. If you wish. Perhaps I misspoke, I'll explain below.

The question asked left plenty of wriggle room I guess but I'm quite sure that both Kate and Lee know that saying "I never saw/heard of that in my 3 generations in scientology" (or whatever it was she said) knew she was altering the truth as most people would perceive it.

There is one way for a scientologist to truthfully deny the "alien connection". People see them doing this Jedi mind-trick all the time without realising what they're doing or how they're doing it.

[scientology mindset] When it comes down to it; we're all just Thetans, ye and me. Marcabians aren't "aliens". Sure, they're kinda weird but underneath all that "Control Your Sector" fanaticism, they're Thetans just like us. The Fifth Invader Force could be thought of as "Dudes With 'tudes" but if you can bear to look beneath that crabby exterior, you'll see that they're Thetans just like us. No Thetan is any more alien than another, some act kinda weird but we're all Thetans and, as every scientologist knows, scientology can get any Thetan to straighten up and fly right! [/scientology mindset]

When you think like that, it ain't lying (except, perhaps, to yourself).

Happy Days
15th February 2011, 06:35 AM
LOL. If you wish. Perhaps I misspoke, I'll explain below.

The question asked left plenty of wriggle room I guess but I'm quite sure that both Kate and Lee know that saying "I never saw/heard of that in my 3 generations in scientology" (or whatever it was she said) knew she was altering the truth as most people would perceive it.

There is one way for a scientologist to truthfully deny the "alien connection". People see them doing this Jedi mind-trick all the time without realising what they're doing or how they're doing it.

[scientology mindset] When it comes down to it; we're all just Thetans, ye and me. Marcabians aren't "aliens". Sure, they're kinda weird but underneath all that "Control Your Sector" fanaticism, they're Thetans just like us. The Fifth Invader Force could be thought of as "Dudes With 'tudes" but if you can bear to look beneath that crabby exterior, you'll see that they're Thetans just like us. No Thetan is any more alien than another, some act kinda weird but we're all Thetans and, as every scientologist knows, scientology can get any Thetan to straighten up and fly right! [/scientology mindset]

When you think like that, it ain't lying (except, perhaps, to yourself).

LOL yep... I can see it now. And we are all basically good, we just haven't found the basic on the chain, so lying is OK :) And we are basically alien cause we trying to find out 'Who we really are'
Thanks Panda, I'll sleep better at night now... but does Kate :))))