How to welcome celebrities?

[TrevAnon]

Last night I thought about the thread ( http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23984-Conversation-with-ANON-today... ) and how Mark Janicello has been "handled" :biggrin: since he first posted on ESMB.

The reason I post this is the thread derail in just that thread done by me, Mark and Infinite, when we started posting pop videos. Somehow that derail was badly needed, I guess to lower the tension.

It is only until today that I felt something was weird about how Mark was being handled, without being able to give words to that feeling. I now feel a little different so here is my take. To be clear: this is not about Mark. He is perfectly able to say his own things and/or - if necessary - to defend himself. This is about the way we want to treat celebrities (or people who once were celebrities) once they decide to come to ESMB.

The first post was not by Mark himself but by someone else. It contains the interview with the Swiss tv-station. I just watched it, and I see nothing wrong with it. In my opinion it is ok to speak out for religious freedom. It may be that Mark was naive to not know that COS would use him as a poster boy, but if I understood the interview correctly, he admits that. And then he posts here and on several threads gets served some serious, sometimes even hard hitting questions.

Why is that?

When someone who is not a celebrity starts posting on ESMB we welcome him or her with open arms. He or she in most cases is a victim like every other ex.

Do we have other, higher standards for celebrities? Is there somehow a need to ask a celebrity that - one way or another - advertised for COS (even if it was indirectly, e.g. through CCHR or even a nice concept like religious freedom) to account for what he or she has done, as if to say he or she is a perpetrator? Is that because they are role models?

Or is it the way the celebrity presents himself? Jason Beghe did an interview on Mark Bunker's site a year after he chose to quit COS and he was very clear about the COS teachings. He also showed up for one or more anon protests. I guess he earned a lot of credit with it. Mark chose another way of presenting himself and he got another reaction.

How would we welcome Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Jenna Elfman, Catherine Bell (yummie :biggrin: ) in case they ever might show up here?

Again, for me this is not about Mark. I am just curious to what happened and to what we think will happen in any future case.

Any thoughts?

[Emma]

I'm very glad you asked the question and very curious as to what the responses will be. :coolwink:

[TG1]

This isn't exactly responsive, but ... I didn't follow any of those threads. I never heard of Mark before, so he wasn't a celebrity to me.

I still haven't watched his video(s) because I don't usually watch videos. I don't know why, but I prefer the written word.

As I said, this isn't quite to your point.

TG1

[TrevAnon]

I never heard of Mark before, so he wasn't a celebrity to me.

LOL! Until a few weeks ago I had also never heard of him. (Sorry Mark... :biggrin: ) I must say that I had also never heard of Jason Beghe when HE spoke out.

[marjan]

Last night I thought about the thread ( http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23984-Conversation-with-ANON-today... ) and how Mark Janicello has been "handled" :biggrin: since he first posted on ESMB.

The reason I post this is the thread derail in just that thread done by me, Mark and Infinite, when we started posting pop videos. Somehow that derail was badly needed, I guess to lower the tension.

It is only until today that I felt something was weird about how Mark was being handled, without being able to give words to that feeling. I now feel a little different so here is my take. To be clear: this is not about Mark. He is perfectly able to say his own things and/or - if necessary - to defend himself. This is about the way we want to treat celebrities (or people who once were celebrities) once they decide to come to ESMB.

The first post was not by Mark himself but by someone else. It contains the interview with the Swiss tv-station. I just watched it, and I see nothing wrong with it. In my opinion it is ok to speak out for religious freedom. It may be that Mark was naive to not know that COS would use him as a poster boy, but if I understood the interview correctly, he admits that. And then he posts here and on several threads gets served some serious, sometimes even hard hitting questions.

Why is that?

When someone who is not a celebrity starts posting on ESMB we welcome him or her with open arms. He or she in most cases is a victim like every other ex.

Do we have other, higher standards for celebrities? Is there somehow a need to ask a celebrity that - one way or another - advertised for COS (even if it was indirectly, e.g. through CCHR or even a nice concept like religious freedom) to account for what he or she has done, as if to say he or she is a perpetrator? Is that because they are role models?

Or is it the way the celebrity presents himself? Jason Beghe did an interview on Mark Bunker's site a year after he chose to quit COS and he was very clear about the COS teachings. He also showed up for one or more anon protests. I guess he earned a lot of credit with it. Mark chose another way of presenting himself and he got another reaction.

How would we welcome Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Jenna Elfman, Catherine Bell (yummie :biggrin: ) in case they ever might show up here?

Again, for me this is not about Mark. I am just curious to what happened and to what we think will happen in any future case.

Any thoughts?

Hello Trev Anon,

Thank you for your post.
As you mentioned, I can hold my own against the pretty vicious commentary that I have received here, but I think you bring up a valid point. However difficult some people on this Forum have been, at the same time I was contacted privately and over the ESMB and was welcomed with open arms.

For those people, I continue to post.

Yesterday, a few of us just had fun posting video answers.
For the first time, I truly enjoyed being a part of this Forum.

The "Conversation with ANON" thread had gotten very heated over the last few days. Unfortunately, I allowed a couple of posters here to aggrivate me pretty badly and I answered them back in my very best (or worse) New York Italian Macho "Fuck You" style.

However, after running a few miles, I realized the error of my ways and decided to laugh those few people off, ignore the haters, and continue to post here.

Performers have to develop a very thick skin. We deal with public criticism on a daily basis, as that is part of the job.
In my case, I dealt with 13 years of public humilation, slander and fraud -- so my skin is made of titanium. LOL

Those on this forum with very strong points of view need to realize that "you get more flies with honey, than with vinegar."

This Forum is neither a courtroom, classroom, nor bully pulpit.

All of us who were in SCN and left have something to add to this forum.
I, for one, hope that when Travolta, Cruise and the like, finally decide to leave SCN, that they will be welcomed here.

[Panda Termint]

<snip...>
Any thoughts?
Tall Poppy Syndrome? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

[Nicole]

I never wanted to handle a celebrity (I never heard about Mark before), I find it very good when they talk about what they know... They are in the public, people listen to them... That is great...

This thread is not about Mark... ok, but I will add something, why I reacted as he started to post as marjan.

Before he started as marjan on this board he posted under an account of his friend (or maybe it was marjans second account). I wanted to buy me the book and make links to this on the pages I regulary post.

A friend of mine saw this and this person got very angry that I started to make advertise for this book. He told me that Mark contacted him and friended with him. The person had left a few month before the SO and Scientology, a very brave person, that person spoke in TV and had contacts. That person said that Mark wanted to use him, because of his contacts. That person was very sad and angry about Marks behaviour...

Now started Mark to post here on ESMB with his own sock puppet and I listened to the interviews and read them... That was Mark told their was the same what OSA said about critics in Germany and I had the other information that he posted with a different sock puppet on ESMB and that he took contact to a person that has left the SO and wasn't sure with way to go... Mark has a very strong character...

I believe Mark too, that he thought he did it for religious freedom... BUT the same says the Scientology Organisation about religious freedom in Germany like Mark says. It is the same...

I know I have an OSA stamp, I find it sad but it is like it is....


And know I ask you TrevAnon, where was you as I got taken apart on this board? Haven't you come and listen to me because I am no celeb???

It started there:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23455-Scared&p=582736&viewfull=1#post582736

and there:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23747-something-I-didn-t-get

[Miss Pert]

I don't think celebrity has anything to do with it, I had never heard of Mark before he posted here. I found his posts straight forward and sensible, sometimes I could also see his detractors viewpoints but in the responses I've read he always answered these people in a way that impressed me so he kind of won me over. However there have been other newbies, "celebs" and non celebs, that haven't handled themselves so well and left me thinking they were wankers, in those cases I just ignored their threads because they aren't worth the time or megabytes. Therefore there shouldn't be any "way" we treat "celebs," or once were celebs, everybody should be treated the same and given same level of respect.

[Jachs]

Good point, i wished that Mark received a better reception here.

I get Mark says hes developed a tough skin as a public person, as a private person i cant imagine what it must be like to persevere in a very public career dethroning.

[Smilla]

I also had never heard of Mark before, but that is of no importance. As I often do, I reacted to his arrival here sceptically, and with a little tease, to see which way he would jump:

"You said what you wanted to say, and other people said what they wanted to say - that's how it works. My advice: Don't take what you feel to be unfair comments to heart. This is the internet, and it can be a rough place. It's a lousy place to defend your character. I've never heard of you before, and I'll forget about you in about 3 minutes from now. So it goes. All is well. Business as usual."

He responded in good humour, and gave me a little back in return, so he's a good sport and unafraid of a little rough and tumble.

He's telling the truth, as he knows and understands it like everybody else here.

I have totally different opinions to him when it comes to the Cult, protesters, Anon, etc, but I feel no need to try and bulldoze his. Different experiences, different conclusions.

I don't think celebrities should be treated any different from anybody else.

[degraded being]

I have limits on how much I will stretch credibility.

People being fucked over by scientology is something that is credible
to me. Even people being fucked with by journo's is something that is possible, so it's credible. The details on that start to stretch me a bit, with claims of knowing someone who lost 10? jobs because they were a scientologist, and the amount of trouble that kids at school were supposed to have had. That it happened is not incredible, just that the details, the amount, where I wonder about exagerration.

It's also a bit of a stretch for me to hear that someone who listed execs he was involved with, up to Linda Goodman and others of that rank; and a trip to Germany to sit-in with Tommy Davis and Anne Archer while they were doing handlings there,
maintains the line that he was just a religious rights fighter for himself. That's all. He completely dissassociates himself from his cult puppet role. WTF?

It's not that I want to slam him for having being very involved with OSA and it's games. It's just his (to me) totally unreal line on decontextualising what happened to him. It's not even that I want to put all the blame on the cult, although we know by history how much they can cause.

Being a celebrity in itself is amost irrelevant. It is only relevant because being a performer got him noticed as a tool to be used by the cult.

If he was not a performer, I would have the same attitudes to the stretches of credibilty I think I am being asked to accept without question.

Lastly......this is one is a bit difficult because I want to be clear but it's about lack of clarity. It goes something like this. When someone puts up several posts, that leave me thinking..WTF? there seems to be inconsistency there, now what is it?, and I have to trawl through the post and previous posts to find out why I cannot make it seem consistent. Mike Laws posts used to have that affect on me. I am not trying to get anything going here on Mike Laws. It's only to say I had to work to see if he was giving conflicting information. It can just be writing style, I know that.
But this is a board where close reading is advised IMO.

[marjan]

Thank you for the (mostly) kinds words on this thread.
To my earlier post, I want to add the following:

As far as I can tell, there are no "requirements" to post on this MB.
This is neither the military, a courtroom nor or a university.

If you WANT an education, there is information available here.
If you WANT to protest, you will find brothers and sisters in arms here.
If you WANT to lick your wounds, you can find solace and understanding.

The operative word here is WANT.

There are many on this Forum who have taken on the personality of their former oppressor. They rail against the very things they are presently doing themselves.
Some of these folks simply have not realized it yet.

If you sit in judgement of others, YOU will be judged.

I was born in New York, but grew up in the very small, farming town of Burlington, North Carolina. The farmers there had a quite clever expression, that I think fits this Forum very nicely:

"Everyone has their own row to hoe."

[degraded being]

Thank you for the (mostly) kinds words on this thread.
To my earlier post, I want to add the following:

As far as I can tell, there are no "requirements" to post on this MB.
This is neither the military, a courtroom nor or a university.

If you WANT an education, there is information available here.
If you WANT to protest, you will find brothers and sisters in arms here.
If you WANT to lick your wounds, you can find solace and understanding.

The operative word here is WANT.

There are many on this Forum who have taken on the personality of their former oppressor. They rail against the very things they are presently doing themselves.
Some of these folks simply have not realized it yet.

If you sit in judgement of others, YOU will be judged.

I was born in New York, but grew up in the very small, farming town of Burlington, North Carolina. The farmers there had a quite clever expression, that I think fits this Forum very nicely:

"Everyone has their own row to hoe."

Is there any room for critical/analytical thinking in a non-judgementgal environment?

[Jachs]

Is there any room for critical/analytical thinking in a non-judgementgal environment?

think is not one of the 3 wise monkeys :p

[degraded being]

think is not one of the 3 wise monkeys :p

Aint that the truth!

[Type4_PTS]

[/QUOTE]


Any thoughts?

Yes, first of all, thank-you for creating this thread. During the week when I was working I didn't have much time here but did read much of what was in that thread that Mark started. And was more than a little concerned as to how it was going.

I agree with Smilla when she says here:


I don't think celebrities should be treated any different from anybody else.

However, I felt Mark was treated harshly and that NO one should be treated that way when arriving here, celebrity or otherwise. Some of the comments towards him were very disrespectful.




However difficult some people on this Forum have been, at the same time I was contacted privately and over the ESMB and was welcomed with open arms.

For those people, I continue to post.

Mark, I was not one of those who had contacted you, but I very much appreciate your contributions here on the forum and am grateful that you have stayed despite the nature of the "welcoming" that you received. :thumbsup:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

How to welcome celebrities?Probably the same way everyone else welcomes them, tell them how amazed you are about their greatness and then use them to help sell whatever it is that you are selling.

[degraded being]

Now we can discuss why these people are not nice to each other.



Diana CL8
"These two mentally deranged couple go in life trashing me and others for years in the internet and actually are being encouraged by his gang of crazy followers like Terril Park, The Oracle and others who get auditing by him."

You are a dumb and vindictive *****."


Terril
"I've been pestered for Years by Catherine Ethier on similar matters
up to a week or so ago.

I expect I'll soon receive a similar legal threat re my forum.

Lets note that you agravated matters by posting nasty stuff to
Cathereine Ethiers former employers some years ago.

The same vindictive mindset whereby you outed TO twice on this forum whereby her husband lost his job and royalty payments.

You are a disgrace.

PS. Niether I or TO has had auditing from Pierre. "

[Panda Termint]

LOL. Do we have to? :no:

[Infinite]

How to welcome celebrities? Same as everyone else: individually.

Its my current position that ESMB is (kinda, sorta, maybe) like a Wall of Fire for people dealing with the post Scientology mind-fuck. Basically, if you can handle it here without suffering too much butthurt / ragequit, you are, generally speaking, well on the way to a sustained recovery. What ESMB is not is a place to recruit vulnerable escapees into yet more mind fucking or to attempt to rewrite history so as to minimise/disappear Scientology's crimes.


Well done to Mark Janicello. He turned up here with a few comments and posts that seemed inconsistent. He got tackled on those, cleared a few up, seems determined to remain obstuse on some, but otherwise handled himself with internet distinction. ESMB, in turn, ignored any "status" Mark might have had, took him on with the perceived inconsistencies, challenged him in various responses, and (hopefully) got him to understand some views that are opposed to his. So well done ESMB, too. WIN/WIN.

I look forward to more conversation with Mark, especially now that I can see he understands the power of the lulz when it comes to taking just about anything on an internet message board too seriously. We still have significant differences and I will continue to "nudge" him along in my direction while still paying attention to what he has to say. Isn't that what this is all about?

[Jachs]

Now we can discuss why these people are not nice to each other.




mind-fuck. too much butthurt / ragequit, mind fucking minimise/disappear


WIN/WIN.

Isn't that what this is all about?

Too late for Butt hurt, maybe we can avoid ragequit and mind fucking.

[degraded being]

Then there was the Magic Thetan..or whatever he called himself. A gentleman in his senior years he seemed to get a lot of flak. Could I say he "attracted" a lot of flak? would that be fair? Why not let him be and just accept him?

And that Nordic guy. He never got love that was totally unconditional either. He was a celeb cult wise and certainly didn't lack self esteem, or insights and intelligence that was superior (to everyone I think). I think he left suddenly...and then left suddenly again...a coupla times.

Then there was that genuinely nice FZer guy. He only wanted to share goodwill....I think. Everytime he tried to"share" he got more and more crap on the return flow.

[MrNobody]

For me it's simple: There are no celebrities on this board. There's Emma and there are the mods. The rest of us are all here on equal terms.

With Mark I was a bit miffed right from the start, because there were at least 6 PR threads here, before the discussion with him even began.

Then, he scattered the little bits of information he gave over quite a few more threads, which makes it hard to follow.

OK, he was an OSA handler, the ranks of Anne Archer and Tommy Davis, he worked happily with his good friends Jürg Stettler and Sabine Weber, and just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet: He has a book to sell.

So far so good, but he behaves like an arrogant asshole. That's not someone I'd like to buy anything from, and that's not someone I can respect. The cleaning lady next door who got out after two or three courses gets more respect from me.

Not even the personalities of Elvis Presley, Isaak Newton and Sigmund Freud combined will get any respect from me, when they come riding in here with a huge PR fanfare, an OSA PR history, and no honest content.

If I'm the only one who has this opinion, I'm OK with that - it still feels better than whoring for a "celebrity" nobody has ever heard of.

jus' my €0.02

ps:
Had he just come here and said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is my story," it would have been a different cup of tea.

[Jachs]

for me its not about whoring a celebrity, just a fair go.

Dont have to lick asses, or kick asses.

[Nicole]

ps:
Had he just come here and said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is my story," it would have been different cup of tea.

This it is!!!

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Then there was the Magic Thetan..or whatever he called himself. A gentleman in his senior years he seemed to get a lot of flak. Could I say he "attracted" a lot of flak? would that be fair? Why not let him be and just accept him?
The Magic Thetan seemed like a real nice guy, he should have lurked a little more instead of assuming that people on this board would be willing to indulge Hubbard's silly ass role playing game. If anyone else comes here expecting to play the delusional role playing game of Scientology they will get treated the same.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

for me its not about whoring a celebrity, just a fair go.

Dont have to lick asses, or kick asses.

Isn't it against the law not to worship celebrities ... you mean to tell me people actually do it willing? ... seriously?

[degraded being]

For me it's simple: There are no celebrities on this board. There's Emma and there are the mods. The rest of us are all here on equal terms.

With Mark I was a bit miffed right from the start, because there were at least 6 PR threads here, before the discussion with him even began.

Then, he scattered the little bits of information he gave over quite a few more threads, which makes it hard to follow.

OK, he was an OSA handler, the ranks of Anne Archer and Tommy Davis, he worked happily with his good friends Jürg Stettler and Sabine Weber, and just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet: He has a book to sell.

So far so good, but he behaves like an arrogant asshole. That's not someone I'd like to buy anything from, and that's not someone I can respect. The cleaning lady next door who got out after two or three courses gets more respect from me.

Not even the personalities of Elvis Presley, Isaak Newton and Sigmund Freud combined will get any respect from me, when they come riding in here with a huge PR fanfare, an OSA PR history, and no honest content.

If I'm the only one who has this opinion, I'm OK with that - it still feels better than whoring for a "celebrity" nobody has ever heard of.

jus' my €0.02

ps:
Had he just come here and said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is my story," it would have been different cup of tea.

Mmmmmmm, interesting points there Mr Nobody. So what your'e saying is "there were at least 6 PR threads here, before the discussion with him even began." Well, yes, I have to concede there is a lot of truth in that.

And you said. "Then, he scattered the little bits of information he gave over quite a few more threads, which makes it hard to follow." I guess that aligns with what I said about having to trawl through threads to get a good sense of what he was saying. I could have been confused by going past an MU though.
You also said, "So far so good, but he behaves like an arrogant asshole. That's not someone I'd like to buy anything from, and that's not someone I can respect. The cleaning lady next door who got out after two or three courses gets more respect from me." Arrogant asshole? Well, I suppose we all have our own perspectives. I was going for a slightly more conservative "pratt"...actually, Pratt. It's a funny old world isn't it, when we don't all see eye to eye :biggrin:

[Infinite]

. . . It's a funny old world isn't it, when we don't all see eye to eye :biggrin:

That's what makes it fun ; )

[Nicole]

Mmmmmmm, interesting points there Mr Nobody. So what your'e saying is "there were at least 6 PR threads here, before the discussion with him even began." Well, yes, I have to concede there is a lot of truth in that.

And you said. "Then, he scattered the little bits of information he gave over quite a few more threads, which makes it hard to follow." I guess that aligns with what I said about having to trawl through threads to get a good sense of what he was saying. I could have been confused by going past an MU though.
You also said, "So far so good, but he behaves like an arrogant asshole. That's not someone I'd like to buy anything from, and that's not someone I can respect. The cleaning lady next door who got out after two or three courses gets more respect from me." Arrogant asshole? Well, I suppose we all have our own perspectives. I was going for a slightly more conservative "pratt"...actually, Pratt. It's a funny old world isn't it, when we don't all see eye to eye :biggrin:
Anyway the book won't get a bestseller... So WTF, should he do what he wants and when he spread still his OSA propaganda about religious freedom in German TV, no intelligent German would believe this... They don't believe Cof$ lies either.

I would say Mark is very arrogant yes, imo this disturbs him in recovering from the mindf*ck... He has lots to learn!

Edit: with his second account, it were more than 6 book selling threads...

[Infinite]

Too late for Butt hurt, maybe we can avoid ragequit and mind fucking.

The quote of mine you used is out of context and missing the "snips" . . . what are you talking about?

[TG1]

Transference.

So much.

[TG1]

Projection.

That, too.

[MrNobody]

The Magic Thetan seemed like a real nice guy, he should have lurked a little more instead of assuming that people on this board would be willing to indulge Hubbard's silly ass role playing game. If anyone else comes here expecting to play the delusional role playing game of Scientology they will get treated the same.

"Semed like a nice guy"... That isn't the point. Or: That's exactly the point. I meet nice people quite frequently, and you know what? Most of them want to sell me something, buy something from me, or have other kinds of deals to offer. Most of them are very nice - until the find out that I'm not interested in their offers and then they end the conversation with a "Fuck You!". Which was what Mark did too, by the way.

"Nice" just doesn't count much in my book.

[Nicole]

For me it's simple: There are no celebrities on this board. There's Emma and there are the mods. The rest of us are all here on equal terms.

With Mark I was a bit miffed right from the start, because there were at least 6 PR threads here, before the discussion with him even began.

Then, he scattered the little bits of information he gave over quite a few more threads, which makes it hard to follow.

OK, he was an OSA handler, the ranks of Anne Archer and Tommy Davis, he worked happily with his good friends Jürg Stettler and Sabine Weber, and just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet: He has a book to sell.

So far so good, but he behaves like an arrogant asshole. That's not someone I'd like to buy anything from, and that's not someone I can respect. The cleaning lady next door who got out after two or three courses gets more respect from me.

Not even the personalities of Elvis Presley, Isaak Newton and Sigmund Freud combined will get any respect from me, when they come riding in here with a huge PR fanfare, an OSA PR history, and no honest content.

If I'm the only one who has this opinion, I'm OK with that - it still feels better than whoring for a "celebrity" nobody has ever heard of.

jus' my €0.02

ps:
Had he just come here and said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is my story," it would have been a different cup of tea.

Thought about this and what happen in the last weeks, since I know about Mark... The "celeb" I never knew before... and Yes, he behaves like an arrogant a**hole...

[marjan]

I was introduced to this Forum by a friend of mine Peter, here in Holland.
I then started to post things myself.

Perhaps Emma should put a list of rules of "HOW" one is to post on this forum.

Before I posted here, I have never involved myself on a Forum of this type, and did not understand "HOW" one is supposed to post here. I still don't get what deserves a new thread and what not. At the end of the day, I post all my things in "leaving the church" -- but obviously for a few people here, my ignorance as to the "RULES" of forum posting causes them to be very suspicious.

I also find it interesting that the one of the only people posting under their real name on this Forum, who (BTW, I am the only Mark Janicello that exists in the entire world) has written a published account of their dealings with SCN, has promoted his story very publicly to the media, and has made no secret here of his past activities with OSA, IAS, LRHPPRO, and the CC Network -- should seem so suspicious to others posting here.

As to "inconsistencies" in my story... I have written a book.
If you're really interested, you'll read it in the book.
If not, then not.

I am not here to fulfill anyone else's idea of who I am.
I also didn't come here to reguritate everything that I already wrote about in the book.
You may choose to believe my posts or not.
Again, I have nothing to prove to anyone and the "burden of proof" always falls on the prosecutor, not the accused.

As to my "celebrity" status... I have posted here, just like every other Joe Blow.
As to the fact that most of you didn't know who I am, that might be because I have not really worked in the US Market since 1994.

But besides all that..Robbie Williams (currently on tour with Take That) signed the largest recording contract in history with EMI and is virtually unknown in the United States.

Here in Holland, Marco Borsato can fill the Geldredome in Arnheim 10 nights in a row, but is completely unknown in Germany, just 2 hours east of Amsterdam.

Taylor Swift, Josh Groban, and many other BIG NAMES in the US entertainment business could not fill a normal-sized theater in Holland -- because they are "unknown."

Just because YOU don't know who someone is, doesn't mean that others don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpOlaLTXP4E

Interesting to read through these posts.

[TrevAnon]

And know I ask you TrevAnon, where was you as I got taken apart on this board? Haven't you come and listen to me because I am no celeb???

Thanks for the links. I just glanced through these threads, hadn't seen them before. It's plain and simple: I post on both ESMB and WWP. On both boards combined there's some 100.000 threads. There is no way I can read them all.

I'm sorry you had to go through this mess, both as a child, later when you were older, and now. From your story I get that you are still recovering from your experiences and that you are getting help from your family, MrNobody and hopefully others. I wish you all the best with that.

This is not a thread about me helping any celebrity. This is also not a thread about me being around for you. Given the circumstances that you are in I think you are doing the best you can and I think you can get around for yourself.

But hey, guess what, I am a nice guy... :biggrin: There is probably not much I can do for you, but I did notice that every now and then you rely on MrNobody to translate from German to English. When I started posting on WWP I did quite a lot of translation work from German to English. I don't think I am as good as MrNobody (I am Dutch, so neither German nor English) but please do feel free to ask me for help in that respect whenever you need.


I never wanted to handle a celebrity

LOL! I don't doubt it. There was a big grin :biggrin: in my post after these words. It was just a play with words; I know the meaning of the word "handle" in COS :) . In no way I intended it to be pointing at anyone. Hope this clarifies.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

"Semed like a nice guy"... That isn't the point. Or: That's exactly the point. I meet nice people quite frequently, and you know what? Most of them want to sell me something, buy something from me, or have other kinds of deals to offer. Most of them are very nice - until the find out that I'm not interested in their offers and then they end the conversation with a "Fuck You!". Which was what Mark did too, by the way.

"Nice" just doesn't count much in my book.

I understand exactly what you are saying and agree that most people have an angle or agenda and I'm sure the Magic Thetan did too, but the Magic Thetan didn't strike me as a guy who said 'Fuck You' when we wouldn't play batshit crazy Scientology with him, he just seemed like a guy who was so fucked up on Scientology that reality wasn't an option at that moment, so he went back to the safe confines of the Freakzone to play Magic Thetan

[TrevAnon]

I still don't get what deserves a new thread and what not.

I guess there is no exact rule for that. Maybe the FAQ can help you: http://www.forum.exscn.net/faq.php . Apart from that: it is a good rule to first search through the forum if there already is a thread on the subject you are planning to start, and reuse that if it's the case.


Taylor Swift

Hmm. I think she is rather popular in the MTV public, also in the Netherlands. But hey, you work in the business, I don't. So what do I know. :wink2:


Interesting to read through these posts.

QFT! Thanks a lot to the various posters.

[marjan]

(I am Dutch, so neither German nor English) but please do feel free to ask me for help in that respect whenever you need.



Hoi TrevAnon, jij bent Nederlander??
Jouw engels is geweldig goed.
Ik ben onder de indruk!

Misschien hebben wij de mogelijkheid personlijk te ontmoeten, waneer jij dat wil.

Groeten,
Mark

[TG1]

This thread seems to be raising several different issues, but I'll take a quick whack at a few of them.

I agree with others (and the Board rules) suggesting that all newcomers deserve the same treatment -- welcomes and kindness upon arrival. Then, after a short time, they get the same chances everybody here gets, without ad hom and incessant rudeness. I would think the same should go for celebrities of all kinds.

My personal reaction to someone who's a celebrity is likely to be more positive if I get the sense that they are here to learn and explore and become part of the community. It's likely to be more negative if they toss their "celebrity" around as though it were something that requires us all to communicate differently or about or through.

Finally, on the subject of celebrity, those who want it (and IMHO that goal is guaranteed to bring you a lifetime of agony) must realize the world loves to tear down celebrities. The more successful celebrity wannabes are charming, self-deprecating, resilient, funny, slow to anger, photogenic, patient, and very careful about how they climb out of low-slung cars.

Otherwise, you're going to spend your life butthurt.

My two cents,

TG1

[marjan]

What is butthurt? Never heard of that before?

[TrevAnon]

Hoi TrevAnon, jij bent Nederlander??
Jouw engels is geweldig goed.
Ik ben onder de indruk!

Misschien hebben wij de mogelijkheid personlijk te ontmoeten, waneer jij dat wil.

Groeten,
Mark

Yep! Zuidoosten van het land. De Amsterdamse OSA leest vast mee, dus ik ben niet preciezer. Ik ben in 2008 een keer gaan kijken in de Amsterdamse org (onder een valse naam). Dat was gewoon uit nieuwsgierigheid. Aan raids in Amsterdam heb ik nooit deelgenomen. Op WWP heb ik overigens dezelfde nickname.

Dank voor je compliment. :blush: Je zult het vast gewend zijn dat je - al zou je willen - niet eens aan je Nederlands kunt werken omdat veel Nederlanders vanzelf schakelen naar Engels als ze merken dat je dat spreekt... :coolwink:

[TrevAnon]

What is butthurt? Never heard of that before?

LOL. Standard LRH tech is using a dictionary... :biggrin:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt

EDIT: bwahahahaha... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mark

[Infinite]

urbandictionary.com


BUTTHURT

An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor."

. . . plus other, more nuanced variations depending on context.

[marjan]

Yep! Zuidoosten van het land. De Amsterdamse OSA leest vast mee, dus ik ben niet preciezer. Ik ben in 2008 een keer gaan kijken in de Amsterdamse org (onder een valse naam). Dat was gewoon uit nieuwsgierigheid. Aan raids in Amsterdam heb ik nooit deelgenomen. Op WWP heb ik overigens dezelfde nickname.

Dank voor je compliment. :blush: Je zult het vast gewend zijn dat je - al zou je willen - niet eens aan je Nederlands kunt werken omdat veel Nederlanders vanzelf schakelen naar Engels als ze merken dat je dat spreekt... :coolwink:

Maar hier in Amsterdam, buiten van mijn woning spreek ik bijna ALLEEN Nederlands, anders leer je de taal nooit.

Over jou, en jouw verhaal, snap ik.
Iedereen in OSA hoeft niet alles te weten.

In de geval dat je wil, kan je mij ook over mijn website kontaktieren.

Gelukkig maar, kan ik ook hier iets oefenen in jouw taal!:eyeroll:

[marjan]

urbandictionary.com



. . . plus other, more nuanced variations depending on context.

That's a new one on me.
Quite an unusual expression...
I thought it was a phrase coined here on ESMB

Shows how "urban" I am after 17 years in Europe.

[Infinite]

Bloody foreigners!!

( see also http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll )

[marjan]

Troll?? Interesting concept.

Calling someone a Troll, is pretty much being a troll yourself, wouldn't you agree?

[TrevAnon]

Bloody foreigners!!

( see also http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll )

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

I guess you have to use Google Translate to understand what Mark and I just said... :biggrin:

[Infinite]

Troll?? Interesting concept.

Calling someone a Troll, is pretty much being a troll yourself, wouldn't you agree?

: )

Trolling sometimes gets a bad wrap. For me, its often more about poking fun and trying to lighten the mood rather than piss someone off. But, I also troll from time to time to spark up a debate or otherwise attempt to shift someone's perspective. Doesn't always work; alas, there are still some people who continue to disagree with me despite the overwhelming logic and evidence I so often and painstakingly present. Anyhow, I was only pointing out that my post was a troll - I was simply providing an example for your internet edification. ; )

Anyway, I suspect you're trolling me, now. I knew you were more onto it than you perhaps thought you were portraying. You kinda gave it away when you told us to "OBEY" and pay more attention to Robbie.

[marjan]

: )

Trolling sometimes gets a bad wrap. For me, its often more about poking fun and trying to lighten the mood rather than piss someone off. But, I also troll from time to time to spark up a debate or otherwise attempt to shift someone's perspective. Doesn't always work; alas, there are still some people who continue to disagree with me despite the overwhelming logic and evidence I so often and painstakingly present ; )

Anyway, I suspect you're trolling me. I knew you were more onto it than you perhaps thought you were portraying. You kinda gave it away when you told us to "OBEY" and pay more attention to Robbie.

Perhaps, but I never heard that word before. Like I said, I have a website, use YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, but I have never really been in a Forum or had online communications other than email. All the terminology is new to me.

But, Robbie was quite pleased that you bowed down in obedience!!! LOL

[TrevAnon]

Perhaps, but I never heard that word before. Like I said, I have a website, use YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, but I have never really been in a Forum or had online communications other than email. All the terminology is new to me.

Lurk moar... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lurk%20moar

[marjan]

LOL. Standard LRH tech is using a dictionary... :biggrin:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt

EDIT: bwahahahaha... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mark

Is that for REAL??
Where do they come up with this stuff?

[Infinite]

Is that for REAL??
Where do they come up with this stuff?

The chans . . . home of Anonymous. We run this.

[TrevAnon]

The chans . . . home of Anonymous. We run this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ZFow_9vsg

[Nicole]

Thanks for the links. I just glanced through these threads, hadn't seen them before. It's plain and simple: I post on both ESMB and WWP. On both boards combined there's some 100.000 threads. There is no way I can read them all.

I'm sorry you had to go through this mess, both as a child, later when you were older, and now. From your story I get that you are still recovering from your experiences and that you are getting help from your family, MrNobody and hopefully others. I wish you all the best with that.

This is not a thread about me helping any celebrity. This is also not a thread about me being around for you. Given the circumstances that you are in I think you are doing the best you can and I think you can get around for yourself.

But hey, guess what, I am a nice guy... :biggrin: There is probably not much I can do for you, but I did notice that every now and then you rely on MrNobody to translate from German to English. When I started posting on WWP I did quite a lot of translation work from German to English. I don't think I am as good as MrNobody (I am Dutch, so neither German nor English) but please do feel free to ask me for help in that respect whenever you need.






Thanks (bedankt) for reading my threads and for your nice words... Dutch, I am not far away from you. I live in Sauerland, you directly know Winterberg :whistling:,but I live more in the near of Dortmund. I do understand Dutch well (but can't speak and write it very good), I had a Dutch boyfriend years ago... He came from Rotterdam.

Thanks for the translation offer... :) I have to learn to do this on my own, and imo I am getting better and better. But when I have something I can't translate and MrN won't to this anymore or he isn't there I will ask you.

Aren't we all nice guys.:coolwink:


LOL! I don't doubt it. There was a big grin :biggrin: in my post after these words. It was just a play with words; I know the meaning of the word "handle" in COS :) . In no way I intended it to be pointing at anyone. Hope this clarifies.

Yes, it does.:)

[Mick Wenlock]

How to welcome celebrities? Same as everyone else: individually.

Its my current position that ESMB is (kinda, sorta, maybe) like a Wall of Fire for people dealing with the post Scientology mind-fuck. Basically, if you can handle it here without suffering too much butthurt / ragequit, you are, generally speaking, well on the way to a sustained recovery. What ESMB is not is a place to recruit vulnerable escapees into yet more mind fucking or to attempt to rewrite history so as to minimise/disappear Scientology's crimes.


Well done to Mark Janicello. He turned up here with a few comments and posts that seemed inconsistent. He got tackled on those, cleared a few up, seems determined to remain obstuse on some, but otherwise handled himself with internet distinction. ESMB, in turn, ignored any "status" Mark might have had, took him on with the perceived inconsistencies, challenged him in various responses, and (hopefully) got him to understand some views that are opposed to his. So well done ESMB, too. WIN/WIN.

I look forward to more conversation with Mark, especially now that I can see he understands the power of the lulz when it comes to taking just about anything on an internet message board too seriously. We still have significant differences and I will continue to "nudge" him along in my direction while still paying attention to what he has to say. Isn't that what this is all about?

that's an excellent post. I may not like all that Mark says or even the way he says some of it but he holds his own, argues his points and engages in dialog. So I think it is a win win as you said.

[degraded being]

I was introduced to this Forum by a friend of mine Peter, here in Holland.
I then started to post things myself.

Perhaps Emma should put a list of rules of "HOW" one is to post on this forum.

Before I posted here, I have never involved myself on a Forum of this type, and did not understand "HOW" one is supposed to post here. I still don't get what deserves a new thread and what not. At the end of the day, I post all my things in "leaving the church" -- but obviously for a few people here, my ignorance as to the "RULES" of forum posting causes them to be very suspicious.

I also find it interesting that the one of the only people posting under their real name on this Forum, who (BTW, I am the only Mark Janicello that exists in the entire world) has written a published account of their dealings with SCN, has promoted his story very publicly to the media, and has made no secret here of his past activities with OSA, IAS, LRHPPRO, and the CC Network -- should seem so suspicious to others posting here.

As to "inconsistencies" in my story... I have written a book.
If you're really interested, you'll read it in the book.
If not, then not.

I am not here to fulfill anyone else's idea of who I am.
I also didn't come here to reguritate everything that I already wrote about in the book.
You may choose to believe my posts or not.
Again, I have nothing to prove to anyone and the "burden of proof" always falls on the prosecutor, not the accused.

As to my "celebrity" status... I have posted here, just like every other Joe Blow.
As to the fact that most of you didn't know who I am, that might be because I have not really worked in the US Market since 1994.

But besides all that..Robbie Williams (currently on tour with Take That) signed the largest recording contract in history with EMI and is virtually unknown in the United States.

Here in Holland, Marco Borsato can fill the Geldredome in Arnheim 10 nights in a row, but is completely unknown in Germany, just 2 hours east of Amsterdam.

Taylor Swift, Josh Groban, and many other BIG NAMES in the US entertainment business could not fill a normal-sized theater in Holland -- because they are "unknown."

Just because YOU don't know who someone is, doesn't mean that others don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpOlaLTXP4E

Interesting to read through these posts.

Don't try to explain Janicology, just tell them to buy the book. Div 6 fully in place.

[Smilla]

: )

Trolling sometimes gets a bad wrap. For me, its often more about poking fun and trying to lighten the mood rather than piss someone off. But, I also troll from time to time to spark up a debate or otherwise attempt to shift someone's perspective. Doesn't always work; alas, there are still some people who continue to disagree with me despite the overwhelming logic and evidence I so often and painstakingly present. Anyhow, I was only pointing out that my post was a troll - I was simply providing an example for your internet edification. ; )

Anyway, I suspect you're trolling me, now. I knew you were more onto it than you perhaps thought you were portraying. You kinda gave it away when you told us to "OBEY" and pay more attention to Robbie.

Trolling is like Vitamin B12 - you don't need much, but you do need a bit. The human body can't synthesize Trolling from other ingesta - it's only known source is other netizens. Newbies are considered a delicacy and are a particularly rich source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOM54nOhpBM&feature=related

[Type4_PTS]

It is only until today that I felt something was weird about how Mark was being handled, without being able to give words to that feeling. I now feel a little different so here is my take. To be clear: this is not about Mark. He is perfectly able to say his own things and/or - if necessary - to defend himself.


Yes, Mark has shown he is more than capable of expressing and/or defending himself.




This is about the way we want to treat celebrities (or people who once were celebrities) once they decide to come to ESMB.


IMO, this should be about how we treat ANYONE who lands here on ESMB.

Mark's "welcoming" committee jumped on him right off the bat in a very confrontational fashion, accusing him of dishonesty, and wanting to enforce their reality on him of how he should have viewed his experiences with the CoS and some protesters. I am referring to the thread where he first showed up which is here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23663-Mark-Janicello-quot-Naked-in-the-Spotlight-quot-Swiss-TV-Interview-with-subtitles.

If that's how we treat new people who show up here, whether they are celebrities or non-celebs, some potentially valuable contributors to this forum will make a quick exit. And others will realize that it is not safe to come here in the first place and avoid walking in through the entrance door.

For 10 years I worked very hard at forwarding the goals and purposes of the CoS, including working towards the expansion of the cult into other countries. Had I been welcomed as Mark had been with an interrogation about my present beliefs about various issues, accused of lying when relating my past experiences, etc., I doubt I'd of stuck around for more than about 5 minutes.

[marjan]

Mark's "welcoming" committee jumped on him right off the bat in a very confrontational fashion, accusing him of dishonesty, and wanting to enforce their reality on him of how he should have viewed his experiences with the CoS and some protesters. I am referring to the thread where he first showed up which is here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23663-Mark-Janicello-quot-Naked-in-the-Spotlight-quot-Swiss-TV-Interview-with-subtitles.

If that's how we treat new people who show up here, whether they are celebrities or non-celebs, some potentially valuable contributors to this forum will make a quick exit. And others will realize that it is not safe to come here in the first place and avoid walking in through the entrance door.

Hello Type 4, thanks for your post.

In the years that I was in SCN, my father (a pentecostal minister) and my mother (a gospel singer) didn't agree with my decision to join SCN AT ALL. We talked about it a LOT, and I tried explained to them why I left the beliefs of my childhood behind.
After a while, the diametrically opposed viewpoints of SCN and Christianity made any kind of theological discussion pointless.

So we did the only thing we could do to keep our relationship going: "We agreed to disagree."

During all the disastrous SCN years, my parents and I discussed everything that was happening. Having someone to talk to during that time literally saved my life, as I was at the end of my rope.

Needless to say, they were very relieved when I finally left in 2003. Fortunately, we did not have to "repair" our relationship because the foundation was sound. We had stayed in communication but "side-stepped" our disagreement on SCN.

There are a few people here need to learn how to "agree to disagree."
Perhaps this thread will help them to understand that on an internet forum there is no "My way, or the highway..."

[LongTimeGone]

From my reading there were only a couple of people who gave Mark a hard time.

As to Cruise and Co, I'm sure we would welcome them coming to their senses.

However I think we would also be very disappointed if they weren't as vocal in attacking the cult as they were in defending it.

LTG

[Nicole]

Yes, Mark has shown he is more than capable of expressing and/or defending himself.




IMO, this should be about how we treat ANYONE who lands here on ESMB.

Mark's "welcoming" committee jumped on him right off the bat in a very confrontational fashion, accusing him of dishonesty, and wanting to enforce their reality on him of how he should have viewed his experiences with the CoS and some protesters. I am referring to the thread where he first showed up which is here:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23663-Mark-Janicello-quot-Naked-in-the-Spotlight-quot-Swiss-TV-Interview-with-subtitles.

If that's how we treat new people who show up here, whether they are celebrities or non-celebs, some potentially valuable contributors to this forum will make a quick exit. And others will realize that it is not safe to come here in the first place and avoid walking in through the entrance door.

.

The first post was from peter (now I know it was Marks friend, that has posted for him and imo Mark used sometimes the account). I criticized the interview, I do that with other interviews on this board too... Should I say to Peter, that I think he is Mark in this moment I "played" with that what Mark gave me. I wanted that Mark or Peter says who he is... Some Threads before Peter said that (see below), and I knew that Mark had contacted with Peters account a person here on this board. What would you think about this! :ohmy:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23296-German-National-Television-promotes-Janicello-s-Book&p=576865&viewfull=1#post576865

Peter his friend wrote


Markus, you can contact Janicello over his website:

http://www.markjanicello.net/booking.htm

No, I am not him.
I have seen him onstage a few times. The thread you mentioned, started with a post of Peter and than marjan started to post there... Than I welcomed him on this board:


Hello and Welcome Marc,

I have doubts and I have them against lots of things and persons. Don't take it personal. :) It's a "gift" from Scientology.

A moment ago I read your "Stellungnahme" about Scientology and you wrote you are on a Black List from the "Verfasungsschutz" ("secret service"). Is it the Verfassungsschutz Bayern? I was in contact with the secret service (not Bayern), it were very nice persons and I never heard about this black list. They are lucky about every information. Don't understand this. Could I view this list? Can I call the Secret Service, and ask who is blacklisted? They were very carefull in giving me informations and things they know.

You wrote you sing "Ave Maria" and you got arrested. Imo you didn't get arrested because of singing "Ave Maria" and you didn't get arrested because of beeing a Scientologist. I can't believe this part. Something more must happened... May be you don't listen at the policeman advices or the demonstration was not allowed. It exists rules about demonstrations.

Anyway nice that you found your way on this board. :yes:

I would love to hear more...
:drama:

Nicole

Was this an unfriendly welcome??? If that was one, I don't know anything anymore! :coolwink:

Than MrN wrote something critical (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23663-Mark-Janicello-quot-Naked-in-the-Spotlight-quot-Swiss-TV-Interview-with-subtitles.&p=587215&viewfull=1#post587215) and WE got this reply...


Hello Mr. Nobody and Nicole,

I am not here to change your points of view. That's your job, not mine.

I don't know who you are, or what your relationship with SCN is, or was.
Obviously, you are still quite angry about a lot of things, which I can understand.

The chapter about my being arrested in Munich is what opens my book.
I sang "Ave maria" a capella, in a legal demonstration for religious freedom and was taken into police custody. You can choose to believe that or not, but that is what happened.

As to the Verfassungschutz etc... Direct information was given to me from numerous record company executives, Concert Promoters and Theater Owners, who I know very well and trust. Whether the Verfassungschutz will admit to it or not, I know it existed. I saw it.

The facts are the facts. Just to give you one example, In June 1998, I had appeared 4 hours on different National TV stations in Germany in just that one month. I have NEVER appeared on national tv in Germany since then.

Tomorrow, I will be on "MDR um 12". That is my first national TV appearance since 1998.

Whatever you think you know, you don't have all the information.
I know MY story. I was there. I lived it, and I have the battle scars, the lawsuits and lived through the libel, slander and humiliation that went along with it.

I am not defending SCN in any way. I am just telling MY story, not yours, MINE.
However, you may continue to be as skeptical as you choose.

I have an opinion on ALL the legal issues you brought up, but that is not something I will comment on on a public forum. As I said, I have a very fine line to walk, and that is what I shall continue to do.

One last thing, I have no problem with criticism. I DO have a problem with death threats, slander, and public humiliation.
You CANNOT uphold the law by breaking it, or taking it into your own hands.

None of the Anti-Scientology protesters ever tried to contact me.
None of the press ever checked the veracity of the stories (mostly complete fabrications) they were writing.

If you want to criticize me, criticize me for something that I DID, not something imaginary.

While I can understand that many people want to destroy SCN, I had never broken any law.
Yet, I was treated as the worst criminal.
I had never enforced my opinion or beliefs on anyone.
I had NEVER mis-used one of my audiences to make PR or Advertising for SCN.
What happened to me was simply not OK. You can say whatever you want.
It was neither legal nor moral.


Regards, Mark It is as MrNobody said, when Mark would have said, "Hey I am Mark J., I was a celeb Scientologist and I want to post here on this board..." Imo everything would be fine... But it happen on another way and we and Mark can't change this... I still have my doubts, as I said in my first post to marjan, I have this against lots of things and I have my opinion about Mark and maybe the time will change this or not! But Mark has to live with that, like I have to live with the doubts against my person. It happen and because of this it is like it is...

[marjan]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=justification

Need I say more?

[Nicole]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=justification

Need I say more?

Do You mean yourself? :p

[marjan]

I still have my doubts, as I said in my first post to marjan, I have this against lots of things and I have my opinion about Mark and maybe the time will change this or not! But Mark has to live with that, like I have to live with the doubts against my person. It happen and because of this it is like it is...


I don't have to live with anything.
Have you forgotten already?
4335

I believe this is what you all call "trolling..." LOL

[Nicole]

I still have my doubts, as I said in my first post to marjan, I have this against lots of things and I have my opinion about Mark and maybe the time will change this or not! But Mark has to live with that, like I have to live with the doubts against my person. It happen and because of this it is like it is...


I don't have to live with anything.
Have you forgotten already?
4335

I believe this is what you all call "trolling..." LOL

:no: This is really sad!:sad:

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Tall Poppy Syndrome? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

That's a very prominent form of behavior in Australia. I define a "celebrity" as someone who has done something worthy of celebration and these days "celebrity" seems to be interchangeably confused with notoriety and infamy.


For me it's simple: There are no celebrities on this board. There's Emma and there are the mods. The rest of us are all here on equal terms.

...

If I'm the only one who has this opinion, I'm OK with that - it still feels better than whoring for a "celebrity" nobody has ever heard of.

jus' my €0.02

ps:
Had he just come here and said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is my story," it would have been a different cup of tea.

Even after reading all of this I have no idea who "Mark" is, nor (based on my definition above) do I particularly care.

Imagine for a moment that Tom Cruise publicly defected from scientology. If he joined ESMB using the NIC "Tom Cruise" would we believe it was really he? Even if it were proved the NIC was real, would we take the posts seriously? I doubt it.

Of the current ESMB membership, I classify two people as Celebrities: Emma and Tory Christman.

[greebly]

Nothing beats a bit of Bill Bailey in a thread.

Hugs for Nicole!

I should have copywrited this but then that would have shown my age:p
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greebly

oh wait....

:bighug:

[degraded being]

The real world. That's a term that might need defining.

[Nicole]

Nothing beats a bit of Bill Bailey in a thread.

Hugs for Nicole!

I should have copywrited this but then that would show my age:p
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greebly

oh wait....

:bighug:

Now I know who Bill Bailey is. Thanks! Had to google... :whistling:

But for what get I hugs now... :confused2:

Whatever!

:handinhand:

[greebly]

If you notice my sig contains Hugs and has done for 2 years atleast here.
(corrected only 648 days under this random username)

Therefore you have been hugged even if you were unaware:)

[MrNobody]

Now I know who Bill Bailey is.
<snip>

So who IS Bill Bailey? All I know is that he hasn't been home since 1902.

[Nicole]

If you notice my sig contains Hugs and has done for 2 years atleast here.
(corrected only 648 days under this random username)

Therefore you have been hugged even if you were unaware:)


Lots of hugs I missed. :flowers:

[Nicole]

So who IS Bill Bailey? All I know is that he hasn't been home since 1902.

I found this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bailey

What was with your Bill???

[MrNobody]

I found this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bailey

What was with your Bill???

Ah, that's a newbie, I'm talking about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Won't_You_Come_Home_Bill_Bailey

[Nicole]

Ah, that's a newbie, I'm talking about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Won't_You_Come_Home_Bill_Bailey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Won%27t_You_Come_Home_Bill_Bailey)

Maybe reincarnation :biggrin:

Edit: Do you play this song?

[MrNobody]

Maybe reincarnation :biggrin:

Edit: Do you play this song?

It's part of our basic repertoire, but currently not in our regular program. This can change though, since the program often changes significantly when the band changes, and the next band change is near: Our Saxophone player will leave us soon, so our program will probably change anyway.

[Freeminds]

How we welcome any new member to this board is an interesting subject in itself. I'd hope that we recognize that it's a difficult step to take. Most people seem to lurk for a while, however, before they register and contribute, so the "welcome" is to some extent already given by the general character of the forum. A reader who scans a few dozen threads before they decide to 'delurk' should already have a good idea about many of the conventions here. After that, they begin to even things up, giving the group an impression of their character.

This is important because the basis for standing in a forum -- particularly one where so many people have chosen to remain anonymous (and ignoring the concept of 'celebrity' for now*) -- is one of social capital. We could discuss the psychology and sociology of group constructs and dynamics... but I'll limit myself to a mention of how we lose social capital. For example, by being needlessly rude, by holding on to an opinion that most people can demonstrate is daft, or by attempting to profit in an environment that most people see as a not-for-profit social medium.

I say needlessly rude because there is a place for rudeness on a forum. In a realm where anybody can repeatedly broadcast an opinion, however obnoxious it may be, humour is one of the few really powerful weapons. So we ridicule those who we consider to be unreasonable, incurably daft, or unconscionable. For example, for my part, I use ridicule as a weapon against the Cheapzone because I find it distasteful that a person who has recently escaped from the cult should be sucked into a fresh mindf*ck at the hands of a different brand of Hubbard apologist. Being rude to Cheapzoners wouldn't accomplish much, but showing how ridiculous they are has an effect.

A group achieves its own baseline social dynamic, which may change gradually over time, but which will tend to be abrasive towards new arrivals who have strong opinions that are not aligned with the group. Some people won't be prepared to conform to the group's standards, and will end up leaving (or even being banned) and others will learn from the group, and maybe change their minds about some things. If they can't or won't then perhaps it isn't the right group for them. There's plenty of other places in cyberspace...

Naturally enough, a newly-arrived member will be more likely to break the rules or the 'unwritten code of conduct' than a member of long standing, or will perhaps not have done enough good things (in the eyes of the group) to bring acceptance of the occasional blunder. So we have to make allowances for a little while, when a new member appears. They're probably a recent victim of Hubbardism, and as such may not be secure: cut them some slack!

If their motive in coming here is to do something that is diametrically opposed to the values of the existing group, however... a 'feeding frenzy' is inevitable. While it does not, of itself, lead to the expulsion of the misguided member... it probably leaves them with so little in the way of social capital that they will accomplish nothing. In the current instance, that means that no books will get sold, and fair's fair: he pulled it in.

Freeminds

* I'd never heard of Janicello until ESMB ,and many other posters have said the same thing so I proceed on the basis that we're not discussing a celebrity here. If Kirstie Alley shows up here some time soon... would that be any different? I hope not: any escaped Scientology victim needs time to decompress, and they don't need to be pressed into service in some kind of anti-cult role.

[Lurker5]

This may be wrong, but I sort of view ESMB as a 12 step group (only different) - meaning that when someone new shows up you don't jump 'em. They are to be eased into it, at their own speed. And welcomed to the group - not gang raped.

Then once they have found their footing (being out, being here, a few steps or more down the road), if they make a stand that provokes contention, they are on their own. You put something controversial out there, be prepared to defend it. But it should all be done with civility and respect - on all sides - for others/all beliefs and practices (as long as those present no harm to self and others). (And yes, that in itself is controversial - civility/respect, people).

No one likes being overwhelmed at something new and unfamiliar. The people who do that, intentionally overwhelm a newbie by slamming and attacking, and I don't care for what reason, are being bullys - and not giving the newbie a chance to fit in. Remind you of junior high?

I know that there are many people out there (I am not talking here :biggrin:) who are not nice folks, and never grow beyond that junior high clique mentality. Yes we have to contend with that every day in our lives - survival of the fittest, like animals - no higher thought in it at all . . .

But HERE? Are we a safe place for exes - or just a mirror of the outer world, brutality and all?

I am guessing, knowing how lrh operated (and dm for that matter), that in scno/co$, the dark essence of that abberative adolescent bullying behavior is exploited, nurtured, praised and rewarded, and used to enforce group conformity and social enslavement.

Hopefully all HERE, out of that toxic culture, can outgrow or have already outgrown that. Sometimes that takes while - to assimilate the rules of civility and respect. Getting rid of the lrh/dm dark shadow that sticks invisibly to so may scno's - and haunts them - from the edges of non-awareness - is not an easy task. But we are not free until we get to the heart of our own darkness - and shine the light, own it -and find compassion for ourself and others. :mirror:

Compassion . . . Kindness . . . For all. With awareness and wisdom. :thumbsup:

[Nicole]

How we welcome any new member to this board is an interesting subject in itself. I'd hope that we recognize that it's a difficult step to take. Most people seem to lurk for a while, however, before they register and contribute, so the "welcome" is to some extent already given by the general character of the forum. A reader who scans a few dozen threads before they decide to 'delurk' should already have a good idea about many of the conventions here. After that, they begin to even things up, giving the group an impression of their character.

This is important because the basis for standing in a forum -- particularly one where so many people have chosen to remain anonymous (and ignoring the concept of 'celebrity' for now*) -- is one of social capital. We could discuss the psychology and sociology of group constructs and dynamics... but I'll limit myself to a mention of how we lose social capital. For example, by being needlessly rude, by holding on to an opinion that most people can demonstrate is daft, or by attempting to profit in an environment that most people see as a not-for-profit social medium.

I say needlessly rude because there is a place for rudeness on a forum. In a realm where anybody can repeatedly broadcast an opinion, however obnoxious it may be, humour is one of the few really powerful weapons. So we ridicule those who we consider to be unreasonable, incurably daft, or unconscionable. For example, for my part, I use ridicule as a weapon against the Cheapzone because I find it distasteful that a person who has recently escaped from the cult should be sucked into a fresh mindf*ck at the hands of a different brand of Hubbard apologist. Being rude to Cheapzoners wouldn't accomplish much, but showing how ridiculous they are has an effect.

A group achieves its own baseline social dynamic, which may change gradually over time, but which will tend to be abrasive towards new arrivals who have strong opinions that are not aligned with the group. Some people won't be prepared to conform to the group's standards, and will end up leaving (or even being banned) and others will learn from the group, and maybe change their minds about some things. If they can't or won't then perhaps it isn't the right group for them. There's plenty of other places in cyberspace...

Naturally enough, a newly-arrived member will be more likely to break the rules or the 'unwritten code of conduct' than a member of long standing, or will perhaps not have done enough good things (in the eyes of the group) to bring acceptance of the occasional blunder. So we have to make allowances for a little while, when a new member appears. They're probably a recent victim of Hubbardism, and as such may not be secure: cut them some slack!

If their motive in coming here is to do something that is diametrically opposed to the values of the existing group, however... a 'feeding frenzy' is inevitable. While it does not, of itself, lead to the expulsion of the misguided member... it probably leaves them with so little in the way of social capital that they will accomplish nothing. In the current instance, that means that no books will get sold, and fair's fair: he pulled it in.

Freeminds

* I'd never heard of Janicello until ESMB ,and many other posters have said the same thing so I proceed on the basis that we're not discussing a celebrity here. If Kirstie Alley shows up here some time soon... would that be any different? I hope not: any escaped Scientology victim needs time to decompress, and they don't need to be pressed into service in some kind of anti-cult role.

Very great post!

I thought a while about the last sentence... It is true people that left or want to leave Scientology shouldn't get pressed here on this board in any role. If it is the freezone role, the Indi role, critic role etc... But when eg Tom Cruise would start to post here and he would write a book, how he got discriminated because he was a Scientologist, that nobody wanted to watch his films in a special country, that he had lost, because of this 100000 dollars, still shows OSA pics and pics how he spoke for Scientologist religious freedom in that country... He won't find really support on this board, all what we would say omg, what he is doing here... Don't he see which damage he made as Scientologist.

We all need(ed) time to heal and it is (was) a long way. Each of us has gone a different way out of Cof$, saw different things and felt different, but the most people, even the freezone and the indies have seen which crime the "Church" does.

Now back to Mark... he brings me in rage, sometimes I feel I discuss with my dead father... When I look on his Internet page and I see the pics he publishes there (http://www.markjanicello.net/naked%20in%20the%20spotlight%20fotos.html) I could :puke: This makes me so angry. I live in Germany, I lived here as Scientologist and as Non Scientologist, we are having here in Germany Religious Freedom... Nobody has in Germany to demonstrate for it... Now this book should get published in the US, where Scientology makes lobbying with the same topic about Germany in the US parlaiment, where TC says the same about Germany, like Mark does...

Mark has a different position than other people here on this board (not because he might be a celeb)... The most come here and publish their story for free. I speak for myself now, I want to do some things change after the damage I have made as Scientologist. I want to help other, I needed help and I want to recover myself. We are Different people - with different reasons to post here. Even Mark needs to recover from Scientology and time to look behind the lies, but he has published this book, full with "Scientology reality and OSA Propaganda"... This is for me a problem and imo advertising for this book on ESMB, isn't good for ESMB. On the other side I don't want to censor, but I wish that critic get accepted and that I get answers for my questions without to get muzzled by Mark. ...and this he did from the beginning and this let my rage grow. Imo We have to respect here each other and listen to the things other persons have to tell. ..and when we have a different opinion we should discuss and talk about this.

[TrevAnon]

Again thanks a lot to all who gave answers. Some observations from my part that I hope maybe we can all agree on. Be welcome to give any more insights if you want to.

- We are all here from our own volition. If we like it, we continue posting, if we don't, we stop.

- "Be nice to newbies".

- Celebrity in itself indeed is no reason to treat someone different then others. That said, in my opinion it DOES matter what you have done with your fame. Did you use it to lure people into the COS con, then be prepared for more questions.

- A celeb can make a choice as to where first to go public about leaving COS (IF (s)he makes that choice!). If e.g. Tom Cruise would leave and make his choice worldwide known by together with Katie visiting Oprah (this time just sitting on the couch, not jumping on or off it), making amends there, then start a fund to get as much of his money as possible back out of COS by sueing the hell out of David Miscavige * in order to give it to the victims and THEN end up here asking for help in decompressing - I guess he would be given a whole other welcome then if he directly came here. I already pointed out how Jason Beghe was welcomed in the anti-COS community.

- I think "dox or gtfo/stfu" is a healthy approach on any message board. This goes for both identities as well as statements one makes.
I think mods / admins (not regular users) can check whether any "Tom Cruise"-account actually belongs to the actor or not. (I remember Nathan Baca, who did a series of reports on COS while he was with KESQ, started posting on WWP (maybe it still was enturb then). His identity was verified by some moderators, IIRC.)
Also, we tend not to take statements like getting arrested for singing Ave Maria (or any other reason) for true just because someone says so. It helps if you actually prove them by linking to independent sources such as newspapers' websites. (I am not sure but I think court papers in the US are online. AFAIK they are not in the Netherlands.) Of course you don't HAVE to, but it does add to credibility.

- A celeb may have an interest posting here. Indeed, Mark wants to sell a book. I just hope him posting here is more than a way of getting publicity. We will just have to wait and see if he continues to post when his book is only for sale at second hand stores... :biggrin:

- I have made and seen some remarks about celebrity-status. Mark also made some remarks. I guess for him living in Amsterdam where not everybody knows him is also practical. At least he can go to the local Albert Heijn (supermarket) and get his daily stuff himself. :wink2:

* Scenario all spelled out so Google can index it... :lol:

[Infinite]

This may be wrong, but I sort of view ESMB as a 12 step group (only different) - meaning that when someone new shows up you don't jump 'em. They are to be eased into it, at their own speed. And welcomed to the group - not gang raped.

Then once they have found their footing (being out, being here, a few steps or more down the road), if they make a stand that provokes contention, they are on their own. You put something controversial out there, be prepared to defend it. But it should all be done with civility and respect - on all sides - for others/all beliefs and practices (as long as those present no harm to self and others). (And yes, that in itself is controversial - civility/respect, people).

No one likes being overwhelmed at something new and unfamiliar. The people who do that, intentionally overwhelm a newbie by slamming and attacking, and I don't care for what reason, are being bullys - and not giving the newbie a chance to fit in. Remind you of junior high?

I know that there are many people out there (I am not talking here :biggrin:) who are not nice folks, and never grow beyond that junior high clique mentality. Yes we have to contend with that every day in our lives - survival of the fittest, like animals - no higher thought in it at all . . .

But HERE? Are we a safe place for exes - or just a mirror of the outer world, brutality and all?

I am guessing, knowing how lrh operated (and dm for that matter), that in scno/co$, the dark essence of that abberative adolescent bullying behavior is exploited, nurtured, praised and rewarded, and used to enforce group conformity and social enslavement.

Hopefully all HERE, out of that toxic culture, can outgrow or have already outgrown that. Sometimes that takes while - to assimilate the rules of civility and respect. Getting rid of the lrh/dm dark shadow that sticks invisibly to so may scno's - and haunts them - from the edges of non-awareness - is not an easy task. But we are not free until we get to the heart of our own darkness - and shine the light, own it -and find compassion for ourself and others. :mirror:

Compassion . . . Kindness . . . For all. With awareness and wisdom. :thumbsup:

Can you point out a single instance when a newbie here has been " . . . raped . . . " by a " . . . gang of overwhelming, slamming, attacking, bullying, high school clique, animalistic, brutal, abberative, mini-LRHs . . . "? Head over to the Martyworld M²&M² Show if you need a comparison for what happens when a newbie speaks out against the group norm.

[marjan]

- A celeb may have an interest posting here. Indeed, Mark wants to sell a book. I just hope him posting here is more than a way of getting publicity. We will just have to wait and see if he continues to post when his book is only for sale at second hand stores... :biggrin:

- I have made and seen some remarks about celebrity-status. Mark also made some remarks. I guess for him living in Amsterdam where not everybody knows him is also practical. At least he can go to the local Albert Heijn (supermarket) and get his daily stuff himself. :wink2:
* Scenario all spelled out so Google can index it... :lol:

Hello TrevAnon,

There are not enough people involved in this message board to justify the amount of time I have spent posting here -- if all I was doing was trying to sell a book.

Besides all that, the book will not be released in english before the Spring of 2012 at the very earliest, unless we close a deal within in the next 2 weeks or so.

@Infinity, I feel neither raped nor abused.
A few people here were and are very rude.
I was rude (or even ruder) back.
So what...
Now, I just ignore them completely, as "Homey don't play that."

By the same token that none of you know me, I don't know any of you either.
Whatever "status" or "position" you may enjoy on this MB, it all means nothing to me, just as my "celebrity" means nothing to you.

You can ask anything you want.
Whether I choose to answer is up to me.
I feel no requirement to justify myself, or my life to anyone.

To be "gang-raped" by a "wanna-be LRH" would imply that I had given that person enough importance to feel abused by them. That is not the case here.

[Lurker5]

Can you point out a single instance when a newbie here has been " . . . raped . . . " by a " . . . gang of overwhelming, slamming, attacking, bullying, high school clique, animalistic, brutal, abberative, mini-LRHs . . . "? Head over to the Martyworld M²&M² Show if you need a comparison for what happens when a newbie speaks out against the group norm.

I did not say it did happen, here (though Mike Laws intro was close, IMO). I am saying it should not happen here. And it isn't just old timers - but can work in reverse, a newbie trying a rape on ESMBers (osa, anyone? - or just plain fucked up scno?). I am saying it is not civil behavior. But it happens all the time, in the world, online. I just hope we have a bit more compassion, here, (and rules, now), after what so many have been through - in scno/co$, and getting out.

But it does take a while for people, especially those who point fingers and blame, to recognize own responsibility - in what happened - and own it. Like most addicts, it is always some else's fault, until some of the addicton has worn off, and the brain begins to operate in a conscientious way again, and a person gets a 'stable' and 'clear' (ha ha) understanding of what truly went down. If that ever happens.

One can have compassion for another's pain and suffering, without giving agreement to their viewpoint.

[Infinite]

I did not say it did happen, here (though Mike Laws intro was close, IMO). I am saying it should not happen here. And it isn't just old timers - but can work in reverse, a newbie trying a rape on ESMBers (osa, anyone? - or just plain fucked up scno?). I am saying it is not civil behavior. But it happens all the time, in the world, online. I just hope we have a bit more compassion, here, (and rules, now), after what so many have been through - in scno/co$, and getting out.

But it does take a while for people, especially those who point fingers and blame, to recognize own responsibility - in what happened - and own it. Like most addicts, it is always some else's fault, until some of the addicton has worn off, and the brain begins to operate in a conscientious way again, and a person gets a 'stable' and 'clear' (ha ha) understanding of what truly went down. If that ever happens.

One can have compassion for another's pain and suffering, without giving agreement to their viewpoint.

I agree - but only so long as that highly subjective "compassion" caveat is never leveraged as a reason to not tell someone the truth. For sure, there's a big difference between calling "a spade a spade and not a bloody shovel", I'm (slowly) learning that myself. However, the last people in the world who need another reason to *not* hear the truth are Scientologists. NO MORE EXCUSES.

Mike Laws was nearly raped? Pics or it didn't happen.

[TrevAnon]

There are not enough people involved in this message board to justify the amount of time I have spent posting here -- if all I was doing was trying to sell a book.

Good point, I didn't think of that. Hope to see you around... :happydance:

[Nicole]

Hello TrevAnon,

There are not enough people involved in this message board to justify the amount of time I have spent posting here -- if all I was doing was trying to sell a book.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23984-Conversation-with-ANON-today...&p=596803#post596803
marjan:

In the theater and in the world of Marketing, it is common knowledge that "mouth-to-mouth" propoganda is the most powerful marketing tool in the world. It is more effective (long-term) than paid advertising.

Besides all that, the book will not be released in english before the Spring of 2012 at the very earliest, unless we close a deal within in the next 2 weeks or so.

@Infinity, I feel neither raped nor abused.
A few people here were and are very rude.
I was rude (or even ruder) back.
So what...
Now, I just ignore them completely, as "Homey don't play that."You did ignore from the beginning... :coolwink: But some day I hope so, the glasshouse you live in will break and you are really free... and you will think:duh::duh::duh: How stuppid I was... http://www.pressefoto-hamburg.de/fotos_hamburg/locations/vierlande_marschlande/03_vierlande/04_23486_glashaus_zerbrochen.jpg

[degraded being]

This may be wrong, but I sort of view ESMB as a 12 step group (only different) - meaning that when someone new shows up you don't jump 'em. They are to be eased into it, at their own speed. And welcomed to the group - not gang raped.

Then once they have found their footing (being out, being here, a few steps or more down the road), if they make a stand that provokes contention, they are on their own. You put something controversial out there, be prepared to defend it. But it should all be done with civility and respect - on all sides - for others/all beliefs and practices (as long as those present no harm to self and others). (And yes, that in itself is controversial - civility/respect, people).

No one likes being overwhelmed at something new and unfamiliar. The people who do that, intentionally overwhelm a newbie by slamming and attacking, and I don't care for what reason, are being bullys - and not giving the newbie a chance to fit in. Remind you of junior high?

I know that there are many people out there (I am not talking here :biggrin:) who are not nice folks, and never grow beyond that junior high clique mentality. Yes we have to contend with that every day in our lives - survival of the fittest, like animals - no higher thought in it at all . . .

But HERE? Are we a safe place for exes - or just a mirror of the outer world, brutality and all?

I am guessing, knowing how lrh operated (and dm for that matter), that in scno/co$, the dark essence of that abberative adolescent bullying behavior is exploited, nurtured, praised and rewarded, and used to enforce group conformity and social enslavement.

Hopefully all HERE, out of that toxic culture, can outgrow or have already outgrown that. Sometimes that takes while - to assimilate the rules of civility and respect. Getting rid of the lrh/dm dark shadow that sticks invisibly to so may scno's - and haunts them - from the edges of non-awareness - is not an easy task. But we are not free until we get to the heart of our own darkness - and shine the light, own it -and find compassion for ourself and others. :mirror:

Compassion . . . Kindness . . . For all. With awareness and wisdom. :thumbsup:

Not everyone has come here to be blessed by our goodness in kindly offering our 12 step program. I know, it hurts to know that some lonely travellers who stop at our doorstep couldn't give a rat's tit how kind or well mannered we are if want to lead them on the righteous path of illumination by our warm and caring counselling in the ways of the cult, the dark path. It's not about that for some. For one at least, it's only about selling an autobiography. Make an offer on that if you want to be kind. Really, that would be the kindest thing you can do in this case. Respectfully, degraded being.

[Lurker5]

I agree - but only so long as that highly subjective "compassion" caveat is never leveraged as a reason to not tell someone the truth. For sure, there's a big difference between calling "a spade a spade and not a bloody shovel", I'm (slowly) learning that myself. However, the last people in the world who need another reason to *not* hear the truth are Scientologists. NO MORE EXCUSES.

Mike Laws was nearly raped? Pics or it didn't happen.

I agree - completely. Truth be told, no matter what, but with civility, no personal accusations/ bitch-fighting.
Pics: :smack::stone::bully::slap::goodorbad::stir::storm : :catfight::violent:

Oh, and some people will never hear the truth, no matter what. :sadsigh: No use arguing. My eyebrows just go up . . . ooooooo-kkkkkkkay . . .

[Lurker5]

Not everyone has come here to be blessed by our goodness in kindly offering our 12 step program. I know, it hurts to know that some lonely travellers who stop at our doorstep couldn't give a rat's tit how kind or well mannered we are if want to lead them on the righteous path of illumination by our warm and caring counselling in the ways of the cult, the dark path. It's not about that for some. For one at least, it's only about selling an autobiography. Make an offer on that if you want to be kind. Really, that would be the kindest thing you can do in this case. Respectfully, degraded being.

Well, :lol: - some make their own bed, then have to sleep in it. I very often see it as left over residuals, not yet shed, from the scno/co$ cult. Sometimes it is just the personality. Then we are shit out of luck. No wait, not us - - - the other way.
Think that old joke - - :eyeroll:

[degraded being]

Well, :lol: - some make their own bed, then have to sleep in it. I very often see it as left over residuals, not yet shed, from the scno/co$ cult. Sometimes it is just the personality. Then we are shit out of luck. No wait, not us - - - the other way.
Think that old joke - - :eyeroll:

Bless you dear. Now i have to go and have a big sleep cos i gotta get up in the morning.:)