Marty's going to Germany to Handle the German government [Archive]

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lurkanon

3rd September 2011, 07:05 PM

Link: http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/09/03/germany-europe-and-human-rights/

Germany, Europe and Human Rights
Posted on September 3, 2011 by martyrathbun09| 34 Comments

During my trip this week I heard from some folks that they had heard on the rumor line that other folks doubted the sincerity of my comment a couple weeks back that “I have David Miscavige right where I want him.” My comment did not mean that things are easy in our life. But, we don’t seek an easy life. We’re working on just what we have said we are working on for the past two years. It is well covered in the Welcome section of this blog as well as the section entitled The 31 Factors that Scientologists Should Consider.

If people think that we are wasting much time on the ass clowns who come to our home each day and follow us all around the world, you are not watching very closely. Look at the Bert Leahy interviews. We don’t just have six ass clowns in a golf cart here. That is just the first layer of daily diversionary tactic. There is an elaborate network throughout our region, backed by teams of private investigators who monitor our every move and relay to the ass clowns when to strike. There is an entire unit at OSA INT that does nothing but coordinate operatives throughout the US to make our lives a living hell, impede us, and stop us by any means necessary. And there are OSA operatives throughout the Anonymous network, ESMB site, the Freezone and Independents running backstabbing, covert propaganda campaigns while we are “tied up” under siege. Just look for the 1.1s using the safe Independent Scientology space we are creating to promote such practices as no-training-needed to get onto OT levels, “OT I and OT II are of little importance”: especially coming from “Class VIIIs”,”Class VIs” and folks claiming to be “trained by Ron.” They may as well be saying “Scientology is a fraud, because after all I studied it all, and violently disagree with the Bridge created by Ron.” Think about it. Beware of anyone who has “studied it all” and discourages you from doing the same.

We are doing far more than auditing pcs and pre-OTs and training people and contending with ass clowns. We never lose sight of the mountain and always have the broader, longer view in mind and keep long-term projects advancing. I generally try to adhere to the advice of the Tao: Just do your work and then stand back.

However, today I am going to have to talk about some work in progress. That is because, David Miscavige has caught wind of it and is going absolutely apoplectic attempting to put period to it. It is not minor work. It is of vast importance to the free practice of Scientology for future generations.

Two years ago the German government invited me to come there and to testify about Scientology. I told them they might not like what I have to say since my view is that the work of L Ron Hubbard and the philosophy of Scientology should survive and thrive. Interest waned; and we carried on with our work here.

A couple months ago I was approached by the German government again. This time they informed me they had studied very thoroughly everything I had written and done over the past two years, and that they understood what we have done has accomplished more in curbing “church” of Scientology abuses than any other factor. They expressed great interest in my informing not only their government, but representatives from a number of European countries, about our work, distinguishing the philosophy from the acts of the corrupt organization so that their own actions vis a vis Scientology were focused on actionable abuse and not on belief, faith, and workable help. And so, we agreed to attempt to do so.

While I was in LA last week, Miscavige ordered the ass clowns to pack up and leave our town. They did so, bringing in special trailers to remove their golf carts and a moving van to remove their rooms full of electronic surveillance equipment.

The “church” of Scientology – hacking international airline reservation computers as they do - recently noted our planned trip to Germany.

When I arrived back home last night, six of them promptly arrived at our driveway squealing like stuck pigs about Mosey and I going to Germany.

This morning the ass clowns moved back into the house less than 200 yards from our home that they had quietly abandoned five days earlier, claiming they only came back because Mosey and I were going to Germany.

Our efforts to educate them predictably fell on deaf, cultist ears. However, I believe the record we made of that attempt is very educational. It sets forth precisely why we are going to Germany and it shows the level of Miscavige’s violent disagreement with our mission.

Cleaning up the image and damage that Miscavige has created for Scientology is not very difficult absent his gargantuan efforts to disrupt such work. But, hey we’re not complaining; like I said at the outset, we’re not looking for “easy” lives – instead, we’re going ahead living meaningful ones.

We shall see what Mosey and I can accomplish in three days in cleaning up what Miscavige has been busy destroying in Europe for three decades. My prediction in the long term is that – much like what happened (though little known in the victors’ history books) during the civil rights movement of the fifties and sixties – Europe will embarrass the U.S. into taking responsibility for that which it was bribed into perpetuating. It certainly won’t be boring – and may bring far more concentrated hell upon us than we’ve seen to date from vested interests in the U.S. government and the U.S. media who have effectively become whores for the cult. But, as a wise, effective man once said: You may be a minority of one, but the truth is still the truth.

The videos follow. Watch all the way through – you don’t want to miss the last few minutes where Mosey puts the debate to rest.

Part I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XjPyEv9xWU&feature=player_embedded

Part II:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yly8zXzp2IA&feature=player_embedded

Part III:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6iq0OI_Rao&feature=player_embedded

Smilla

3rd September 2011, 07:20 PM

Veda

3rd September 2011, 07:40 PM

-snip-

There is an entire unit at OSA INT that does nothing but coordinate operatives throughout the US to make our lives a living hell, impede us, and stop us by any means necessary. And there are OSA operatives throughout the Anonymous network, ESMB site, the Freezone and Independents running backstabbing, covert propaganda campaigns while we are “tied up” under siege. Just look for the 1.1s using the safe Independent Scientology space we are creating to promote such practices as no-training-needed to get onto OT levels, “OT I and OT II are of little importance”: especially coming from “Class VIIIs”,”Class VIs” and folks claiming to be “trained by Ron.” They may as well be saying “Scientology is a fraud, because after all I studied it all, and violently disagree with the Bridge created by Ron.”

-snip-

"The objective is to be identified as attackers of popularly considered evils [Miscavige and Miscavige-Scientology]. This declassifies us from former labels [Scientology cult nut becomes Scientology anti-cult hero]. It reclassifies our attackers [see above, the list seems to be growing:nervous:] as evil people."

Confidential 'Black Propaganda' 12 January 1972

Will Marty "handle" Germany?

Will there still be "besmirching of L. Ron Hubbard's good name" after Marty's visit?

Stay tuned.

Captain Koolaid

3rd September 2011, 08:10 PM

Will Marty "handle" Germany?

:hysterical:

I'm almost inclined to believe that Rathun buys his own bullshit, just like Hubbard eventually believed his own lies. The official German position on the FZ is "the lesser evil". Rathun will never convince the German government that his "pure" version of the Cult is harmless, let alone benevolent. The German government might try to hear some new dirt on the Cult, but if Rathbun believes he can score points for the rehabilitation of the fat fraud and his fascist belief system then he's more delusional than the average "church" kool aid drinker.

Is it just me or does Rathbun start to sound as melodramatic as his master?

However, today I am going to have to talk about some work in progress. That is because, David Miscavige has caught wind of it and is going absolutely apoplectic attempting to put period to it. It is not minor work. It is of vast importance to the free practice of Scientology for future generations.

AnonKat

3rd September 2011, 08:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRi5h20OL-8&feature=related

freethinker

3rd September 2011, 09:18 PM

I watched the whole thing and it's clear to me that Marty wants Scientology to remain as Hubbard wrote it - all of it.

Even the Squirrel Busters are thinking he just wants to take over and Marty was mixing reassurance with insult that he wants the same thing that they do.

Tell me this guy is not campaigning for the throne.

He envisions the future event where he walks out on stage with Mike and whoever is still alive from the double wide, dusted off and cleaned up, to resume buisness as usual but Rathbun style.

Arthur Dent

3rd September 2011, 09:32 PM

Below is Larry Brennen's story of his visit with Ursula Caberta in Germany in 2007. The BOLD type is my effort to highlight some key points, IMO.

If Ursula is meeting with Marty I truly hope she bears in mind that "organized scientology" = scientology = scientology = scientology. You cannot take the "organized" out of scientology. The illegal, immoral and human rights violating activities of the church ARE scientology. Always were; always will be.

Apparently, this meeting between Marty and the German government is to separate out the evil "organized scientology" from the philosophy itself. It is a noble gesture on the German government's part but it simply cannot be done by definition of scientology and it's policies. I hope this is not lost on Ursula.

by Larry Brennan more
22 September 2007

Source: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/e48b667614a842fd

I just got back from a trip to Hamburg and Berlin in Germany (September 2007) visiting Ursula Caberta for four days. I wanted to see what she was really like, what she was really doing about scientology there, why she was doing it and is it something I would care to support.

The website for the governmental group she runs in Hamburg that purports to fight abuses from organized scientology is: http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/behoerden/inneres/arbeitsgruppe-scientology/start.html

There are also many posts about her, pro and con, on this and other sites regarding her dealings with organized scientology. Then of course there is the organized scientology website re religious "freedom" watch that paints her as a hateful person and that claims that the German government attacks the rights of religious minorities and recently had to be "admonished" by the US Department of State.

So what is the truth? I went to Germany to try to find out for myself.

What I am listing below is part of what I found out. Much of it is fact and some of it is simply my honest opinion. It is what I consider to be that which can be publicly reported now. So, here goes:

In summery, my first two days were spent mostly with Ursula in Hamburg, much of it in the office occupied by Ursula and several other government people in her department. Early the third day I went with Ursula to Berlin and attended quite an event there about scientology at which she spoke along with Professor Thomas Gandow and Wilfried Handl. On the fourth day, again in Berlin, there was another event with the three of them that lasted all day. I spoke briefly at that one.

Here are the main things I found out and the main occurrences:

In the two days I spent in her office, there were visits and calls from press wanting to know about scientology. This included newspapers as well as major national and international magazines. Quite a major newspaper article was published by a major newspaper in Berlin while I was there about abandoned children in scientology. I believe Ursula's office helped with providing at least some of the information for that article.

Another reporter showed up while I was there and interviewed two ex scientologists from Germany who also showed up to tell their stories of abuse on the part of organized scientology. It was interesting speaking with all of them.

Ursula was constantly fielding calls from either press who wanted information or ex scientologists who wanted help.

One especially sad case where someone came to Ursula for help while I was there was a young woman with a small child who was abandoned by her husband because she was a "declared SP" by organized scientology. Her husband, who was on staff, refused to support her and organized scientology would not help as well. The young lady was frightened and could not properly care for her baby.

Unlike organized scientology who "threw her away", Ursula cancelled appointments to see her and then to help her and her child financially and otherwise.

I saw and spoke with another ex scientologist while there for a few hours. He had recently fled staff and Ursula was helping him get onto his feet and protect him from organized scientology who was after him.

What I found was that Ursula and her department was constantly helping people who had been abused by organized scientology and in some cases possibly saving their very lives as many were desperate. Many of the people coming to her were terrified of organized scientology or were otherwise destitute or broken by organized scientology. I heard one story after another from Ursula and others there telling examples of who is helped by her department every week. This includes people who were financially ruined by scientology's high pressure sales tactics or by scams in WISE groups. Ursula and her department helped them get their money back or otherwise worked to help force organized scientology to right a wrong carried out against those people.

Ursula took a lot of time out of her schedule to speak with me, we had dinners together and stayed up until almost one in the morning one night in my hotel's bar/restaurant talking about scientology. One night there she pointed to the table where we were sitting and the one next to it and told me the story of how years ago she was sitting there with the likes of Hanna and her husband, Jesse, Vaughn and Stacy and others.

She told me many stories of those times and it was obvious that she deeply cared about them all, especially Vaughn. We swapped "Vaughn Young stories" and she would smile when she talked about what a decent and kind man he was.

In fact I found Ursula to be a very kind person who laughs easily, has a great sense of humor and is very sharp. I also find that she holds no hate for scientologists whatsoever. Instead she has a deep caring and compassion for those hurt by organized scientology. It amazes me to a degree that she is not a bitter person given that she has been so often attacked by organized scientology and for years has had to help people who have been to one degree or another destroyed and "thrown away" as no longer useful by organized scientology.

She told me that she is happy that when her department helps someone that organized scientology does not attack them but instead attacks her. She's very protective of them, almost motherly and will not tolerate those people being attacked once she is involved with them.

She told me great and funny stories of how OSA has tried to get at her by trying to set her up with a boyfriend who was an undercover OSA spy, offering to hook her up with a celebrity, etc. She laughs readily about such things and how obvious they have been. Although the stories made me laugh as well, I found myself amazed that OSA just cannot seem to get it that there are people who truly care about others and will not be bribed.

To give you an idea of how protective she can be even in a very small case, I found out after I got there that she had German Secret Service watching over me as soon as I arrived into Germany at the airport. I had no idea they were there but they were ready to intercede if I was accosted by representatives of organized scientology while there. I did not feel this was necessary at all but it is an example of how they take their jobs seriously and how much of a danger they really feel organized scientology is to people and their country.

Ursula stated that she was willing to help anyone who was in scientology and was now needing help. While her department especially wants to help other Germans, she will help people of any nationality. An example of her view was what she said after someone asked how badly she might like to prosecute Mike Rinder if he could be caught. Ursula said that Mike was a human being and deserved help if he got out of organized scientology and was trying to reform and was being harassed by organized scientology. She said that she would work to give Mike a safe place to stay if needed, even political asylum if needed. She would do whatever she could to help him, just like she would and has been doing for anyone else who approaches her for help.

It amazed me and made me very happy to see a truly caring woman here for ex scientologists pretty much no matter what they had done in the past. It appeared to me that the only one she could not reconcile helping was David Miscavige due to the years of brutality he has carried out over so many and still does to this day.

Ursula told me that I could publish her email fhh...@t-online.de and tell anyone who wants help from abuses by organized scientology, even if not German, that they can email her and she will help if she can. She said that she would even work to give American ex scientologists political asylum in Germany if they needed it for their protection.

Later I told Ursula of my walks outside Hamburg and Berlin orgs and seeing the various people at Berlin org (Hamburg org was totally dead). I told Ursula that most people there were neither bad nor abusive people but instead are mislead. I told her that in my opinion most of them had no idea of the lies embedded in Hubbard's writings, how paranoid he was, how horribly abusive it is near the top of organized scientology. Most of them have no clue that their "fearless leader" Miscavige has no real love or compassion in his own heart nor the understanding of wrong that comes from being a loving or compassionate person. They have no clue how he spits on, beats and destroys people constantly. Ursula fully agreed and it was completely obvious to me that she had no hatred whatsoever for those people.

I enjoyed working with Ursula and helping on some questions and issues where I was able to help clarify a few things. I found her to be very knowledgeable on these issues as we talked about the real legal controls in scientology and what information may be needed by the likes of prosecutors in Belgium, those in Germany and in other countries to help expose the lies, frauds, perjuries and other crimes in organized scientology. I can say that in my opinion she is very knowledgeable both legally and factually that if one ever is going to stop abuses by organized scientology in Germany that one will need to deal with those from outside Germany that are really in control of all the actions resulting in abuses being carried out.

I asked Ursula that other than what some people can testify to that may help her, the Belgium government, etc. what could ex scientologists from like the United States do to help. Ursula asked me to ask ex scientologists in the USA to write to their federal senators, congressional reps and governors and tell them their stories with organized scientology. They should be short letters (one to two pages) of the honest facts of how they have been abused or witnessed abuse by those in organized scientology. She feels that this is the most important thing the average American ex scientologist could do, even if it's just one letter.

She holds no resentment at all towards Americans or the American government even though organized scientology has managed to get the US State Department to criticize the Germans for attacking the rights of minority religions. Ursula knows well that she and her government are doing no such thing, that instead they are constantly having to help those abused by organized scientology. She is highly aware and concerned about the "church" policies of taking over and she is impressively well versed in how organized scientology has lied their way into being considered a benevolent, "religious" organization by some others in the USA. She's very aware of how they lied their way to tax exempt status with the IRS as well as other important legal- related matters. I found that she could quickly and easily understand anything I pointed out in this area including lies by Miscavige in courts, to the IRS, etc and why they were lies and how they hid things.

All that said, Ursula asked again for Americans to write to their representatives as above. She told me stories of dealings with the US State Department and how they almost never have the type of information that almost any of us know about abuses in organized scientology. I say we do this, it cannot hurt and could only help start a groundswell of truth into areas of the US government that could in fact help ensure actions are taken to help stop abuses.

Ursula told me something else which made me think. She said that those in Germany have been through the horrors of an insane, abusive and criminal government (Hitler and the Nazis). They have seen the insanity of it taking over the country and the horrors that followed because of it. They see the same sort of controlling, paranoid and manipulative doctrine in organized scientology and the same type of early actions taken by organized scientology as were taken early by those who became the Nazis. They've seen the same kind of "put downs" of others by the Nazis as organized scientology does to "wogs" and especially "SPs" who can be "fair gamed". They refuse to let this happen again. It is NOT hatred of minority religions at work in Germany. Rather it is more the hard and horribly learned lessons of the past there helping them see what is coming should organized scientology really spread there. While in no way putting down Americans or others, Ursula feels that they do not see this coming as they have not had to live though it in their own country. My feeling is that she may very well be right for many people. I found this view very, very interesting.

On my third day there Ursula and I took the speed train from Hamburg to Berlin where she and Thomas Gandow and Wilfried Handl spoke to a sold out theater audience (200-300 people) about scientology. I spoke with many people before and after that event and sat through the event itself even though I do not speak German. I know a lot of what was being covered by being briefed and understanding parts of what was being read.

The three of them each spoke repeatedly while another woman read different things when asked such as Hubbard writings about children and enemies, sec checks, sec check for children etc. It was amazing hearing the audience laughing at the insanity of some of the sec check questions and then gasping in horror at some of the others and some of the things Hubbard wrote.

Present in the audience were people from varied walks of life including press. It was a very interesting action taken by using the combined efforts of the government and the private sector to educate people on the dangers of organized scientology there. What I especially liked was that they were using actual Hubbard writings and writings of others in organized scientology in their educational efforts. Ursula also read from some of her recent best selling book "Schwarzbuch Scientology" which I think translates to something like the black book of scientology.

I got interviewed by a number of press before and after that event and met some other very interesting and nice people including one of ars's vets and his lovely wife. I guessed who he was when I saw him walk in with a "XENU" baseball-style hat and then put on a "scientology kills" T shirt. lol

A few other interesting things relating to this event were as follows:

1) I'm told that there are only maybe 200 active scientologists in Berlin. That meant that more people were at that event than there are active scientologists in Berlin;

2) The event was held at a local small theater that is on the same block as the Berlin "model org". Really, it's like a 15 second walk to the org. To show you how utterly horrible the PRO area control is with the Berlin org, here is the text of a printed sign located on the front door of that theater building (in English and German). "Employees of the "church" of Scientology are barred from the Tribuene. The Management". I am told by management there that they did resent in the past scientologists coming into the theater trying to get people to leave the theater and go to the org. Thus they did not want scientology staff in there;

3) Local DSA/OSA folks went immediately into "foot bullet mode" surrounding this event. They handed out very poor copies of their "freedom" magazine (looked like a really bad photo copy job) and included an insert attacking at least two of the three speakers (Ursula and Wilfred Handl). They even had a photo copy of both the front and back of a check from over seven years ago from Bob Minton to Ursula. The net result was that the attendees were even more interested in the event and thought even more how crazy organized scientology was;

4) On the heels of that foot bullet was another foot bullet by some scientologist in the event who started shouting during the event to try to stop it. He stood there speaking and resisting the attempts by theater owners to escort him out of the building. Finally a strong looking man from the audience (who I believe might have been a policeman) just shook his head in disgust, walked over to the scientologist and threw him out personally while others cheered. That action reinforced what the speakers were trying to cover in the event;

5) The audience was obviously majorly impacted by the event, were very supportive of the speakers and many spoke with their questions and stories.

Of note is that I went to the Berlin "model org" a number of times over the two days, even having a soda in a restaurant across the street watching the front of the building. Also walking up and down the front area looking in. Not only was the org pretty much dead of traffic but the foot traffic in front of the org is horrible! There are tons of cars driving by constantly but no real volume of foot traffic. (EG: two walk by, 45 seconds latter another walks by, a minute later another walks by, etc.). I have no idea why they picked a lousy foot traffic area for their "model org". (I did note security cameras on the side of the org building though which seems kind of typical to me as I saw the same on orgs in Los Angeles and Clearwater in the past year and just got a picture of Ottawa org where it is the only building on the block with a security camera on it).

On the fourth day I attended an all day event where the same speakers were speaking. This time they were speaking to a couple of hundred Lutheran teachers. I was asked to speak briefly (with someone translating) and answered questions about such things as fair game in scientology. It surprised me that I was just visiting and here I was speaking with more teachers than there are active scientologists in Berlin and that they will go out to tell what they have learned to thousands of others (their students, etc.). Many of them spoke to me later privately. All were very interested in what organized scientology was doing, all were horrified at such things as their abuses and lies. I also got interviewed by another reporter for several hours that day.

Wow. This is really long so I am going to end here by stressing again what Ursula asked was needed the most from Americans. And that was simply and briefly telling your story of abuses by organized scientology to even one of your governmental representatives in the senate or congress.

I hope this in some way helps.

Larry Brennan - SME

afaceinthecrowd

3rd September 2011, 11:22 PM

Free to shine

3rd September 2011, 11:39 PM

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/09/ex-scientology_1.php

<snip> Background story)
Then, a few days ago, the Squirrel Busters suddenly gave up. Last night Rathbun told me that after his most recent trip to Los Angeles, last week, he returned home to find that the Scientology goon squad had left its rental house and was no longer on his block. But before he could breathe a sigh of relief, suddenly they were back.

"The moving van's back in," he told me. When he asked them why they were back, he says they told him: "We were out of the here, but then we heard you were going to Germany, so we came back."Once again, they had somehow found out about his travel plans. Since the Squirrel Busters had figured out that he was going overseas, Rathbun decided it was time to break the news.

Rathbun says that Ursula Caberta, a Hamburg politician, invited him to come speak in Germany two years ago, but he declined. Caberta had long been the commissioner of the Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority, which monitored Scientology in Germany from 1992 to 2010, and worked to raise awareness of its concerns with Scientology's controversies and reported abuses.

Other American ex-Scientologists have made highly publicized trips to meet with Caberta and speak to the German public. But for Rathbun, it was a tricky proposition: as long as criticism was aimed at both Hubbard and the church, he had little interest in helping that effort.

But over the last two years, he says, Caberta has read his blog and understands that he's criticizing the way Miscavige runs official Scientology while still honoring Hubbard's ideas about the mind.

"She understands where the real reform is coming from," he told me last night. And once he goes over there on Monday, and begins speaking on Wednesday, he thinks his message -- to focus on the abuses under Miscavige, not the philosophies of Hubbard -- progress in Germany to curb official Scientology will pick up speed.

"It's going to go like wildfire across Europe," Rathbun told me.

Free to shine

3rd September 2011, 11:44 PM

And there are OSA operatives throughout the Anonymous network, ESMB site, the Freezone and Independents running backstabbing, covert propaganda campaigns while we are “tied up” under siege. Just look for the 1.1s using the safe Independent Scientology space we are creating to promote such practices as no-training-needed to get onto OT levels, “OT I and OT II are of little importance”: especially coming from “Class VIIIs”,”Class VIs” and folks claiming to be “trained by Ron.” They may as well be saying “Scientology is a fraud, because after all I studied it all, and violently disagree with the Bridge created by Ron.” Think about it. Beware of anyone who has “studied it all” and discourages you from doing the same.

Hmmm...ok, if you have studied all of scientology and have a problem with it, you are OSA. :duh:

We shall see what Mosey and I can accomplish in three days in cleaning up what Miscavige has been busy destroying in Europe for three decades.

Self confidence or delusions of grandeur?
It will be interesting to see what Ursula makes of Marty.

Type4_PTS

4th September 2011, 12:06 AM

Ursula told me something else which made me think. She said that those in Germany have been through the horrors of an insane, abusive and criminal government (Hitler and the Nazis). They have seen the insanity of it taking over the country and the horrors that followed because of it.They see the same sort of controlling, paranoid and manipulative doctrine in organized scientology and the same type of early actions taken by organized scientology as were taken early by those who became the Nazis. They've seen the same kind of "put downs" of others by the Nazis as organized scientology does to "wogs" and especially "SPs" who can be "fair gamed". They refuse to let this happen again. It is NOT hatred of minority religions at work in Germany. Rather it is more the hard and horribly learned lessons of the past there helping them see what is coming should organized scientology really spread there. While in no way putting down Americans or others, Ursula feels that they do not see this coming as they have not had to live though it in their own country. My feeling is that she may very well be right for many people. I found this view very, very interesting.

OMG! :ohmy::omg:

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 12:33 AM

Maybe Marty can promise DM, say, 500 million bucks to go away and leave.

With Marty running the show it would just get more brutal, more ruthless, and - of course - even more expensive.

afaceinthecrowd

4th September 2011, 12:35 AM

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 12:42 AM

O yea of little faith.:naughty:

Face :biggrin:

Little ? :omg: Put me down for no faith in that bunch.:lol:

degraded being

4th September 2011, 12:47 AM

Link: http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/09/03/germany-europe-and-human-rights/

Germany, Europe and Human Rights
Posted on September 3, 2011 by martyrathbun09| 34 Comments

During my trip this week I heard from some folks that they had heard on the rumor line that other folks doubted the sincerity of my comment a couple weeks back that “I have David Miscavige right where I want him.” My comment did not mean that things are easy in our life. But, we don’t seek an easy life. We’re working on just what we have said we are working on for the past two years. It is well covered in the Welcome section of this blog as well as the section entitled The 31 Factors that Scientologists Should Consider.

If people think that we are wasting much time on the ass clowns who come to our home each day and follow us all around the world, you are not watching very closely. Look at the Bert Leahy interviews. We don’t just have six ass clowns in a golf cart here. That is just the first layer of daily diversionary tactic. There is an elaborate network throughout our region, backed by teams of private investigators who monitor our every move and relay to the ass clowns when to strike. There is an entire unit at OSA INT that does nothing but coordinate operatives throughout the US to make our lives a living hell, impede us, and stop us by any means necessary. And there are OSA operatives throughout the Anonymous network, ESMB site, the Freezone and Independents running backstabbing, covert propaganda campaigns while we are “tied up” under siege. Just look for the 1.1s using the safe Independent Scientology space we are creating to promote such practices as no-training-needed to get onto OT levels, “OT I and OT II are of little importance”: especially coming from “Class VIIIs”,”Class VIs” and folks claiming to be “trained by Ron.” They may as well be saying “Scientology is a fraud, because after all I studied it all, and violently disagree with the Bridge created by Ron.” Think about it. Beware of anyone who has “studied it all” and discourages you from doing the same.

We are doing far more than auditing pcs and pre-OTs and training people and contending with ass clowns. We never lose sight of the mountain and always have the broader, longer view in mind and keep long-term projects advancing. I generally try to adhere to the advice of the Tao: Just do your work and then stand back.

However, today I am going to have to talk about some work in progress. That is because, David Miscavige has caught wind of it and is going absolutely apoplectic attempting to put period to it. It is not minor work. It is of vast importance to the free practice of Scientology for future generations.

Two years ago the German government invited me to come there and to testify about Scientology. I told them they might not like what I have to say since my view is that the work of L Ron Hubbard and the philosophy of Scientology should survive and thrive. Interest waned; and we carried on with our work here.

A couple months ago I was approached by the German government again. This time they informed me they had studied very thoroughly everything I had written and done over the past two years, and that they understood what we have done has accomplished more in curbing “church” of Scientology abuses than any other factor. They expressed great interest in my informing not only their government, but representatives from a number of European countries, about our work, distinguishing the philosophy from the acts of the corrupt organization so that their own actions vis a vis Scientology were focused on actionable abuse and not on belief, faith, and workable help. And so, we agreed to attempt to do so.

While I was in LA last week, Miscavige ordered the ass clowns to pack up and leave our town. They did so, bringing in special trailers to remove their golf carts and a moving van to remove their rooms full of electronic surveillance equipment.

The “church” of Scientology – hacking international airline reservation computers as they do - recently noted our planned trip to Germany.

When I arrived back home last night, six of them promptly arrived at our driveway squealing like stuck pigs about Mosey and I going to Germany.

This morning the ass clowns moved back into the house less than 200 yards from our home that they had quietly abandoned five days earlier, claiming they only came back because Mosey and I were going to Germany.

Our efforts to educate them predictably fell on deaf, cultist ears. However, I believe the record we made of that attempt is very educational. It sets forth precisely why we are going to Germany and it shows the level of Miscavige’s violent disagreement with our mission.

Cleaning up the image and damage that Miscavige has created for Scientology is not very difficult absent his gargantuan efforts to disrupt such work. But, hey we’re not complaining; like I said at the outset, we’re not looking for “easy” lives – instead, we’re going ahead living meaningful ones.

We shall see what Mosey and I can accomplish in three days in cleaning up what Miscavige has been busy destroying in Europe for three decades. My prediction in the long term is that – much like what happened (though little known in the victors’ history books) during the civil rights movement of the fifties and sixties – Europe will embarrass the U.S. into taking responsibility for that which it was bribed into perpetuating. It certainly won’t be boring – and may bring far more concentrated hell upon us than we’ve seen to date from vested interests in the U.S. government and the U.S. media who have effectively become whores for the cult. But, as a wise, effective man once said: You may be a minority of one, but the truth is still the truth.

The videos follow. Watch all the way through – you don’t want to miss the last few minutes where Mosey puts the debate to rest.

My TRs are out and my squirrel buster BTs are giving me eczema. I'm going to hide in Germany.

Terril park

4th September 2011, 12:47 AM

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 12:55 AM

This is very interesting.

Marty will be addressing I assume many government people in Europe.

I presume he will give a similar view to my own, that scn tech and
philosophy is separate from the awful abuses of CO$

Maybe you could go with him and back him up on the wonderfulness of scn?

( Nevermind the awful abuses come straight out of scn tech and philosophy )

Type4_PTS

4th September 2011, 01:05 AM

I presume he will give a similar view to my own, that scn tech and
philosophy is separate from the awful abuses of CO$

When you say "scn tech" are you meaning just the Red on White stuff? :unsure:
Or does this include Ethics Tech, Third Dynamic Tech, Tech on how to wash windows standardly?

And how about the "tech" that does this:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?16796-MICHEL-CANCER-AND-SUICIDE-ON-SOLO-NOTS

Markus

4th September 2011, 01:37 AM

I'm quite sure that Ursula will "handle" Marty :coolwink:

Love
Markus

Jump

4th September 2011, 02:17 AM

I'm quite sure that Ursula will "handle" Marty :coolwink:

Love
Markus

Given Ursula's perspective, from caring for and helping abused exes, you could say that Ursula knows much more about Scientology than Marty ever will.

Terril park

4th September 2011, 02:23 AM

Veda

4th September 2011, 02:47 AM

Red on white.

So Hubbard's books and his handwritten Clearing and OT materials would be excluded, while such expressions of enlightenment as, for example, the red on white 'LSD, Years after they come off of', and the red on white 'Pain and Sex', would be included. If that's the case, you can call yourself a red-on-white-ologist, but you're not a Scientologist anymore.

Type4_PTS

4th September 2011, 03:01 AM

Red on white.

Scientology is a package deal as created by Hubbard imo. Perhaps some useful things could be surgically extracted from the rest of the crap to benefit people. But then it is no longer Scientology. One can't just pick and choose those things with which he agrees with and say that that is "Scientology". Even if you tried to do that you'd have students who "discovered" the censored writings of Hubbard, including KSW, and begin following those policies. Hubbard made it pretty clear that NOBODY had the ability (other than himself) to cancel or alter in any way KSW Series#1. And THAT policy is responsible for much of the insanity and fanaticism caused by Scientology.

The Scn philosophy is deeply embedded within the Ethics Tech and Hubbard made it pretty clear that one cannot get Tech in until Ethics was in.

One cannot seperate the philosophy from the Tech, and the philosophy has much to do with the abuses (as Auditor'sToad previously mentioned).

By the way, wasn't KSW Series#1 issued as both a bulletin (red on white) as well as a policy? :unsure:

Type4_PTS

4th September 2011, 03:56 AM

I never in the past gave much consideration to the points in common between CoS and the Nazi's. Somehow though Ursula's comments to Larry B really impinged upon me. It makes total sense to me that the Germans would be more sensitive than others at spotting emerging groups which are potentially dangerous.

And others too also see similarities. Hubbard's son, Ron DeWolf (formerly L. Ron Hubbard Jr) for one. Listen to his comments beginning at about 6:35 of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcPoSo49dYU&feature=related

lotus

4th September 2011, 04:07 AM

http://www.tubecad.com/2008/08/05/preacher.png

Smurf

4th September 2011, 04:19 AM

I'm quite sure that Ursula will "handle" Marty :coolwink:

While I found the videos amusing, I was surprised to hear how many times Marty repeatedly told Mark how he was going to "handle" Ursula Caberta and "I've done more to distinguish LRH & recover LRH than anyone else in the last 2 years."

Marty refuses to acknowledge that alot of abuse & criminal acts occurred until L. Ron Hubbard's watch & with his approval long before David Miscavige took over the cult.

Are we supposed to forget about Operation Snow White & the fact that LRH moved from place to place fearing the FBI was looking for him? Leave it to Marty to rewrite history and disinfect what is already documented fact.

What in the world was Ursula thinking inviting him to speak? It certainly will make for an interesting speech. Are they allowed to burn people at the stake in Germany, Markus?

FoTi

4th September 2011, 04:35 AM

Ursula doesn't need any handling. She appears to be doing just fine the way she is. :biggrin:

I'm looking forward to the show, though. :drama::drama::drama:

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 04:38 AM

marty can't handle the clowns on a golf cart but in 3 days he is going to handle all of Europe....................right:duh::duh::duh::duh ::duh::duh::duh::duh::duh::duh:

Arthur Dent

4th September 2011, 05:26 AM

Scientology is a package deal as created by Hubbard imo. Perhaps some useful things could be surgically extracted from the rest of the crap to benefit people. But then it is no longer Scientology. One can't just pick and choose those things with which he agrees with and say that that is "Scientology". Even if you tried to do that you'd have students who "discovered" the censored writings of Hubbard, including KSW, and begin following those policies. Hubbard made it pretty clear that NOBODY had the ability (other than himself) to cancel or alter in any way KSW Series#1. And THAT policy is responsible for much of the insanity and fanaticism caused by Scientology.

The Scn philosophy is deeply embedded within the Ethics Tech and Hubbard made it pretty clear that one cannot get Tech in until Ethics was in.

One cannot seperate the philosophy from the Tech, and the philosophy has much to do with the abuses (as Auditor'sToad previously mentioned).

By the way, wasn't KSW Series#1 issued as both a bulletin (red on white) as well as a policy? :unsure:

KSW #1 would have to go. It's all in there. Or at least a lot of it is. I can't see them relinquishing that. They will hold onto it for dear life as it wouldn't hold together without it. The whole thing would have to go.

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn

4th September 2011, 05:35 AM

marty can't handle the clowns on a golf cart but in 3 days he is going to handle all of Europe....................right:duh::duh::duh::duh ::duh::duh::duh::duh::duh::duh:

Just kick back and enjoy the entertainment, Marty is the dysfunctional train wreck reality show that keeps on giving.

lotus

4th September 2011, 05:41 AM

Marty refuses to acknowledge that alot of abuse & criminal acts occurred until L. Ron Hubbard's watch & with his approval long before David Miscavige took over the cult.

Are we supposed to forget about Operation Snow White & the fact that LRH moved from place to place fearing the FBI was looking for him? Leave it to Marty to rewrite history and disinfect what is already documented fact.

This is entheta and natter :nervous:

Please,
a volounteer minister of desenturbulation here
I feel entheta

:bigcry:

Smurf

4th September 2011, 07:27 AM

This is entheta and natter

It's a fact. You can distort the truth it all you want.

Cherished

4th September 2011, 08:40 AM

While I found the videos amusing, I was surprised to hear how many times Marty repeatedly told Mark how he was going to "handle" Ursula Caberta and "I've done more to distinguish LRH & recover LRH than anyone else in the last 2 years."

Actually, Marty never once said he was going to handle Ursula.

That said, Marty will need, I think, to expressly disavow certain LRH policies if he's to get any forward motion in Germany for Scientology.

Jump

4th September 2011, 08:47 AM

Actually, Marty never once said he was going to handle Ursula.

That said, Marty will need, I think, to expressly disavow certain LRH policies if he's to get any forward motion in Germany for Scientology.

But Marty doesn't speak for the organised Scientology corporation - so I don't really see any point in going.

anonomog

4th September 2011, 08:55 AM

oh god
He is going to handle Germany.

There is nothing quite like a Scientologist's delusional belief system mixed with delusional arrogance to produce, well, delusions.

Just how important is Sientology to Germany I ask myself?

I did some primary school maths on some estimated numbers to give myself something to work off. Not saying this is scientific and 100% correct.

Population of German +/- 83 million

Being very generous and assuming that Germany is home to say 1/5th the Scientology population of the world and again being generous and assigning a total world figure of 40 000. (using Jeff Hawkins figure) then we have 8 000 people in Germany practising Scientology (in or out of the church).

Then total population of Sci's in Germany is 0.009%.

Marty, I am sorry to tell you but Scientology just isn't that important, except perhaps to a government, that is doing a study in how it can prevent a splinter group of true believers from evolving into a batshit totalitarian cult in the future.

Cherished

4th September 2011, 09:13 AM

But Marty doesn't speak for the organised Scientology corporation - so I don't really see any point in going.
I have a hunch it will be one of those moments in scientology history about which scientology-watchers will recall where they were when they heard.

Okay. I exaggerate slightly. If I were in Germany, I'd go.

Pooks

4th September 2011, 09:18 AM

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5494656141_5c97612048_o.jpg

Student of Trinity

4th September 2011, 09:56 AM

I'm relatively new to Germany, but to me it actually seems quite credible that some organ of the German government would invite Marty to spiel about Scientology. Because of the simultaneous commitments to liberal tolerance and suppression of totalitarianism, for religious movements in Germany there is in principle a very sharp line between being strongly defended by law, and being banned. It takes quite a lot to fall on the 'banned' side, but Scientology rings a lot of bad bells here. It's too close for comfort.

Some government officials have to decide where to draw that sharp line, and I have no doubt that they will be conscientious to a fault. My very amateurish guess is that there's a good chance Marty Rathbun will indeed 'save' Scientology, by presenting a coherent enough case for distinguishing Scientology as a belief from the Church of Scientology that the German government in some way recognizes the distinction. It won't take any great heroism or 'at cause-ness' on Marty's part, either. I'm pretty sure that the conscientious German bureaucrats would be extremely uncomfortable in formally condemning any religious viewpoint, but they are probably also rather keen to condemn the CofS. Anything better than an implosion by Marty would give them the excuse I think they want, to make the call that he also wants.

Markus

4th September 2011, 10:06 AM

While I found the videos amusing, I was surprised to hear how many times Marty repeatedly told Mark how he was going to "handle" Ursula Caberta and "I've done more to distinguish LRH & recover LRH than anyone else in the last 2 years."

Marty refuses to acknowledge that alot of abuse & criminal acts occurred until L. Ron Hubbard's watch & with his approval long before David Miscavige took over the cult.

Are we supposed to forget about Operation Snow White & the fact that LRH moved from place to place fearing the FBI was looking for him? Leave it to Marty to rewrite history and disinfect what is already documented fact.

What in the world was Ursula thinking inviting him to speak? It certainly will make for an interesting speech. Are they allowed to burn people at the stake in Germany, Markus?

It always amazes me how bad you US - Americans are educated in History and geograpgy :coolwink: Of course we do not burn people at the stake - we eat them because we like raw meat:p
I do not know what Ursula thought when she invited him to speak but I know that she understands Hubbards brainwashing system - so I'm sure she will not give Marty the plattform he is exspecting right now.
When I said that Ursula will handle Marty I reffered to the OP where it was stated that Marty is going to handle the German government and I thought that this will not be the case at all because I know Ursula and her opinion about Hubbard quite well.

Love
Markus

Jump

4th September 2011, 10:06 AM

Markus

4th September 2011, 10:13 AM

Then they should ban Scientology - because without the compulsory volunteering, the coerced abortions, the disconnections, the slave labour, the prison compounds, the child labour, the discouraging of education, the deception of police, the extortion ... etc - it just ain't Scientology any more. Is it??

Yes you are right - it is not.:thumbsup:

Captain Koolaid

4th September 2011, 10:36 AM

The good thing about this: If Marty plans to seperate LRH and Scio "tech and philosophy" from "Corporate Scientology", then Ursula Caberta will ask him very VERY uncomfortable questions. The questions that he ritually avoids on his blog. Questions about

- handling of people below 2.0
- Fair Game
- Operation Snow White / Freakout
- Security checks , sec checks for children
- RPF, RPF for children
- Hubbard's view on democracy
- Manual of Justice
- "Pink Legs"
- Battle Plan
- KSW fanaticism
- Targets Defence

He will need a lot of energy to keep his cult mindset together.

Nicole

4th September 2011, 11:50 AM

I don't know why Ursula Caberta invited Marty R. to Germany, but imo one very easy reason could be that Marty can speak about the crimes and abuses that happen at the top of Co$.:coolwink:

At the moment it is very silent around the Scientology-Organisation in Germany. I have a bad feeling about this. One example Anons raids Stresstest tables, no confront from the Scientologists anymore. They often go away when Anons arrive... There is nowhere a real confrontation even not in the media. Scientology is like a tamed predator in Germany and because of this it is silent arround Ursula Caberta, the media is silent etc. Now Ursula Caberta is working at the "secret service" that has to observe Scientology ( I hope I am right here). Her workplace changed. The secret service needs arguments to go on with this observing and Marty could give reasons and arguments to do it and the media will be interrested. I am sure.

The Scientology topic needs a new impetus, if the German state don't won't to loose this "fight".

Imo it is a big sign what Ursula Caberta sends to DM. The sign she is back in the game and the sign she hasn't gave up after the AGS got closed.

I am very, very sure Ursula Caberta knows what she does:yes: and I am very sure nobody can handle Ursula Caberta.:yes::yes:

Type4_PTS

4th September 2011, 03:25 PM

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5494656141_5c97612048_o.jpg

:lol:

Krautfag

4th September 2011, 04:02 PM

Are they allowed to burn people at the stake in Germany, Markus?

Depends. How much weight did you loose lately? Would it still be worth while the effort of going into the woods and chopping a few trees?

:biggrin:

And as for Marty, he's been a nasty little boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkEPuzVIgUk

Krautfag

4th September 2011, 04:04 PM

Being very generous and assuming that Germany is home to say 1/5th the Scientology population of the world and again being generous and assigning a total world figure of 40 000. (using Jeff Hawkins figure) then we have 8 000 people in Germany practising Scientology (in or out of the church).

Verfassungsschutz currently estimates them at ca. 2500-3000 members, trending downward.

afaceinthecrowd

4th September 2011, 04:34 PM

A-non-non-anon

4th September 2011, 04:40 PM

Marty's going to speak.

German authorities will take careful notes about all the abuses he talks about, and quietly ignore his Neo-FZ babble.

Remember when he was convinced the latest Panorama was going to be 60 minutes of Pro-Ron Pro-Indie propaganda, and then it turned out to be nothing of the sort? Remember how butthurt he got about that? It's going to be like that, x9000.

Marty continues to fail to cognate that folks on the outside can see through his illusion.

Happy Atlast

4th September 2011, 04:44 PM

The interesting thing about the DM and MR dynamic is that they will both ultimately go down in flames. DM will continue to vilify MR inside the Church and MR will continue to vilify DM outside. It's sometimes interesting to watch but the end product is they will both be ruined and consumed by the own hate and anger.

Good luck with that guys!:duh:

afaceinthecrowd

4th September 2011, 04:44 PM

Oh, I forgot...there is a 4th item for my "Marty's German Report" list;

A blend of #'s 1-3.

Face :)

Happy Atlast

4th September 2011, 04:51 PM

These videos show one group of Fanatic Fundamentalist Scientologists, facing up to another group of Fanatic Fundamentalist Scientologists with whom they have disagreements, and doing what Fanatic Fundamentalist Scientologists do.

That's what they believe in. That's Scientology. That's Standard Tech.

http://coffeeforclosers.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fanatic-small.jpg

The interesting thing about the DM and MR dynamic is that they will both ultimately go down in flames. DM will continue to vilify MR inside the Church and MR will continue to vilify DM outside. It's sometimes interesting to watch but the end product is they will both be ruined and consumed by the own hate and anger.

Good luck with that guys!

Zhongjianren

4th September 2011, 06:36 PM

Krautfag

4th September 2011, 07:30 PM

The biggest nightmare for Miscavige and corporate Scientology (the "official" Church of Scientology) would be if as a result of Marty's visit Germany publicly took the following position:

Germany has nothing against the practice of the religion of Scientology, and will do nothing to suppress the practice of the religion of Scientology.

However, the corporate organization known as the Church of Scientology [is banned] [has lost its tax exempt status] [must pay minimum wages to its "volunteers"] and/or [is itself no longer recognized as a valid religious corporation or organization].

.

Zhong, you have to realize some facts:

First of all, NO ONE over here thinks that Scientology is a religion or has any spiritual value. The public reception of Scientology is that is a "Sekte", a sect and a very bad one, too.
Secondly, Scientology is about as popular here as a good outbreak of the black pest or natural disaster. In fact, a decent flooding of the Rhine is probably more popular than Scientology in the public oppinion.
Thirdly, the notion of "clearing the planet" (which is mandatory per Hubbard) is abhorrent to us. We tried that once. Results are known. We will be fighting every motherfucker who tries to persuade us into that shit again.
Fourthly, Scientology sadly is tax-exempt, due to the double-taxation treaty with the United States. As long as the fucktards are exempt in the US, they are here too. Do something about it!

And by Scientology I refer as well to the organization as to the tech.

Yes, I can doublepost too :D

Captain Koolaid

4th September 2011, 07:51 PM

Nobody in Germany makes a distinction between Organized Scientology and the Scientology "tech", "teachings" etc. Especially not the government. Except a handful of Free Zoners/Ron Orgers.

The source is seen as totalitarian, fascist and intrinsically hostile towards everything a free and democratic society stands for. Which is 100% accurate even if some cannot see this as they're still trapped in the mindfuck.

anonomog

4th September 2011, 07:59 PM

The biggest nightmare for Miscavige and corporate Scientology (the "official" Church of Scientology) would be if as a result of Marty's visit Germany publicly took the following position:

Germany has nothing against the practice of the religion of Scientology, and will do nothing to suppress the practice of the religion of Scientology.

However, the corporate organization known as the Church of Scientology [is banned] [has lost its tax exempt status] [must pay minimum wages to its "volunteers"] and/or [is itself no longer recognized as a valid religious corporation or organization].

.

I think it would be irritating to Dainty Davey but I don't think it would be a nightmare. The Aussie backpay issue is a horror story nightmare.

If your scenario plays out, the COS will withdraw, in name only, from Germany, while it's faithful regroup under a different banner.
Sure the new group will pay it's volunteers, but there will just be imaginative pay deductions funnelled straight back to the group. Then there will be further imaginative ways to send the donations back to Davey via a half dozen "Humanitarian" fronts or they will import costly materials, copyrights or publications from the COS. The government wouldn't want to disallow the new religiously protected scientologists from accessing their scriptures.

The only hope I would have is that the COS is seemingly completely unable to withdraw gracefully and accept defeat, they have to flip the bird at the evil one, and show who is boss. Doing this to the German government might bring some serious footbullet lulz.

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 08:20 PM

Have no fear ! Marty is going to "handle" Germany and all the rest of Europe in 3 days.

Marty is going to have LRH loved and Scientology welcomed everywhere !

Oh .............. and................ Marty has a bridge he wants to sell you, too !

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn

4th September 2011, 08:27 PM

If he had any sense, he would start off by saying I'm not here to discuss how much of an abusive fuckbag Hubbard was, I'm here to discuss how abusive the latest fuckbag running the cult is, but lucky for us he has no sense, so taking his 'Hubbard Good, Miscavige Bad' Shtick on the road to Germany should make for some high quality entertainment.

Nicole

4th September 2011, 09:54 PM

Two handful Germans know who L. Ron Hubbard was and only one handful Germans know who David Miscavige is.

BUT the most Germans now what Scientology is... an evil sect and a business company!

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 10:01 PM

If he had any sense,....
<snip, snip, snip>..... should make for some high quality entertainment.

Marty may be many things but having sense isn't it :lol::lol::lol::lol:

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn

4th September 2011, 10:02 PM

Two handfull Germans know who L. Ron Hubbard was and only one handfull Germans know who David Miscavige is.

BUT the most Germans now what Scientology is... an evil sect and a business company!

You are correct the people who are familiar with the Scientology brand know it's an evil cult, and I'd say even less than a handful know or care who Miscavige is, I'd say more people probably think the Skipper from Gillian's Island created Scientology than know who David Miscavige is.

degraded being

4th September 2011, 10:32 PM

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 10:57 PM

Country after country will strip the "religion" cloak off scientology and show it for what it always was : a money scamming little cult.

Arthur Dent

4th September 2011, 11:12 PM

If the German government is inviting Marty because they've been studying his blog for the past two years, one would hope they have also been studying this board.

The dilution of the German government's position toward now not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water is out of character considering their former and long time stance on scientology as well as Krautfag's recent accounting of the German people's take on the church.

To me, it reeks of scientology (OSA) run interference that they are now of the mindset to take a view of scientology's possible virtues vs. "organized scientology" lest they overstep their bounds. If they leaned toward salvaging scientology tech it would leave loop holes for the church to spring up anon and in a new guise.

The scientology task force Ursula Caberta headed since 1992 was closed down in 2010 due to budget cuts. I'm hoping she still has power in this area. I'd imagine she does, however, I cannot find her name related to scientology in 2011 in a google search. Anyone have any info. about her activities relating to scn in the past year?

From a scn. mind-fuck way of thinking, I'd research every single person on the committee that shut down her activities due to budget cuts and find the scientologist or scientology connection. Just sayin'....

Feral

4th September 2011, 11:31 PM

You know the Germans closed down Ursula Caberta's department because Scientology had become so inconsequential that in effect her efficiency had done her out of a job. Now Marty's going to go and handle all the bad PR that Davey boy has created over thirty years. I remember when I used to think like that. I was an OT then.

The biggest nightmare for Miscavige and corporate Scientology (the "official" Church of Scientology) would be if as a result of Marty's visit Germany publicly took the following position:

Germany has nothing against the practice of the religion of Scientology, and will do nothing to suppress the practice of the religion of Scientology.

However, the corporate organization known as the Church of Scientology [is banned] [has lost its tax exempt status] [must pay minimum wages to its "volunteers"] and/or [is itself no longer recognized as a valid religious corporation or organization].

.

This is likely to actually be achievable. Marty has a trump card, in that "freedom of religion" is regarded a basic human right, and one that I agree with. The Cof$ is clearly guilty of abuses that it can be persecuted for, belief is not one of them. The Indies have a clean slate and Germany may well chose to protect them from the religious persecution that the CofS is inflicting.

That would be one for the history books, now wouldn't it?

I think it would be irritating to Dainty Davey but I don't think it would be a nightmare. The Aussie backpay issue is a horror story nightmare.

If your scenario plays out, the COS will withdraw, in name only, from Germany, while it's faithful regroup under a different banner.
Sure the new group will pay it's volunteers, but there will just be imaginative pay deductions funnelled straight back to the group. Then there will be further imaginative ways to send the donations back to Davey via a half dozen "Humanitarian" fronts or they will import costly materials, copyrights or publications from the COS. The government wouldn't want to disallow the new religiously protected scientologists from accessing their scriptures.

The only hope I would have is that the COS is seemingly completely unable to withdraw gracefully and accept defeat, they have to flip the bird at the evil one, and show who is boss. Doing this to the German government might bring some serious footbullet lulz.

Gee, the OSA sure is busy....

Krautfag

4th September 2011, 11:32 PM

If the German government is inviting Marty because they've been studying his blog for the past two years, one would hope they have also been studying this board.

The dilution of the German government's position toward now not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water is out of character considering their former and long time stance on scientology as well as Krautfag's recent accounting of the German people's take on the church.

You know, I digested marty's coming to Hamburg a little bit now, and I tend to think that Ursula probably wants to tie up some loose ends from 1995-2005, probably out of personal interest too. It's been a long and dirty battle against her and she probably is keen to hear from the inside of the enemy during that very time. I wonder if Mike was invited too.

From a scn. mind-fuck way of thinking, I'd research every single person on the committee that shut down her activities due to budget cuts and find the scientologist or scientology connection. Just sayin'....

Nah, Scientologist were innocent for once in that regard...it was a brutal battle for funds in the 2010 Hamburg state budget. And seeing that Co$ is besieged by Anons and in the decline the axe fell for Ursula's department.

Terril park

4th September 2011, 11:49 PM

I think Ms. Caberta…to wit…the German Government is being thorough and “covering all the bases” in regards to Scn.

Marty’s got a big problem that is fairly obvious…Marty’s rhetoric has openly consistently continued to drift to hard-line “On Source” since his initial articles as “Sitting Bull”…a very apt name, don’t you think?

His most recent writings and actions show just how close to Institutionalized Scn he is in word and deed.

A fundamental and inseparable predicate in the theory and design of Scn--Red “Tech” and “Green” Tech--is “Practitioner/Client” which is a business model and not non-profit model. Now, there are non profits that provide free counseling services but El Ron’s “Scriptures” say that Scn delivered for free is “bad” for the subject receiving the service.

Marty’s, “I’ll Audit you for free and crack/clean up your case” works well for him as he is delivering service to others that are pre-conditioned to pay for it as they have been indoctrinated and ascribe to El Ron’s theory of exchange and the importance of exchanging for Auditing in order to get “full gains”. I can assure you that nearly all the folks Marty has Audited for “free” are “exchanging” with him in some way.

Marty is so full of himself he’s starting to foam and froth at the mouth. Scn is all about being “Powerful, Cause, All Knowing, All Seeing and Right”. Having read Larry B’s narrative, I am confident Ms. Caberta has a better grasp of the “points of discussion” Marty will present than he does.

IMHO upon Marty’s return he will report to the faithful one of the 3 following outcomes;

1. That DM has F’d things up so bad even Marty, "The Hero" can’t fix it now.

2. That Marty has got the “ear” of the German Government but that it all has to remain “hush hush” and confidential for the time being.

3. That Marty made great progressive strides in “saving/salvaging” Scn in Germany and is very hopeful of a good outcome…which, later, if there is a “bad” outcome he will play the “betrayed by SP’s” or “DM F’d it up in the end” card.

Face :)

Interesting points.

First re exchange, I believe it is a fundamental concept that is broadly
considered valid, regardless how its viewed.

Now what will Marty say? This can be gleaned from his blog.

What will he be asked. Aye there's the rub.....

Its known he ran OSA. He will no doubt be asked difficult questions.

He's not stupid, he must understand this.

Apparently he is prepared to answer questions. This could get very interesting.

Usually these things in Germany are videoed and publically released.
Dunno if this will have the same deal, however no doubt what Marty
says will eventually out.

Its a balls to the wall effort for him. And he may come out of this ingloriously. Kudos.

Its not clear if Ursula invited him. However the squirrel busters say so, and one might place some faith in there investigative arts if not their good hearts.

I see your scenario:-

" 1. That DM has F’d things up so bad even Marty, "The Hero" can’t fix it now."

This is perhaps quite possible. Sadly I feel there will be no other result.

However.... hope springs eternal. :)

Terril park

4th September 2011, 11:51 PM

Krautfag

4th September 2011, 11:55 PM

Interestingly I just happened to see a post over at the German forum on WWP which nicely pictures the public attitude towards Scientology:

It's a quote from Stuttgarter Zeitung, the newpaper for Stuttgard and the surrounding towns. http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.scientologen-duerfen-werben.f98e2516-28b0-4887-b685-7cfd5e658063.html

Scientologen dürfen werben
Leonberg. Empörung über einen Informationstand der Organisation in der Stadtmitte.
Wie kann es sein, dass Scientology, die vom Verfassungsschutz beobachtet wird, in Leonberg eine Genehmigung für einen Straßens-Stand erhält und dort massiv werben darf?", empört sich ein Leser unserer Zeitung. Mitte der Woche hatte die Organisation einen solchen Stand an der Kreuzung der Römerstraße mit der Leonberger Straße aufgebaut. Dort sei mit einem kostenlosen Stress-Test geworben worden. Im Polizeirevier Leonberg habe er die Auskunft bekommen, dass Scientology für den Stand eine Genehmigung erhalten habe, so der Leser.
"Scientology hatte einen Antrag auf einen Stand im öffentlichen Raum an der Kreuzung der Römer- mit der Leonberger Straße gestellt und vom Ordnungsamt eine Genehmigung erhalten, denn sie hat einen Rechtsanspruch darauf", sagt Undine Binder-Farr, die Sprecherin der Stadt. "Die Stadt unterliegt hier dem Gleichbehandlungsgrundsatz, deshalb müssen wir das einräumen, zumal auch andere Vereine und Organisationen hier ihre Stände aufbauen dürfen", so Binder-Farr. Der Rechtsanspruch bestehe, da die Scientology-Organisation zwar vom Verfassungsschutz beobachtet werde, aber nicht verboten sei.
In Baden-Württemberg wird Scientology bereits seit dem 1. Januar 1997 beobachtet. Auf der Grundlage des Abschlussberichts einer Arbeitsgruppe der Verfassungsschutzbehörden, die eigens zur Prüfung dieser Frage gebildet worden war, hatte die Ständige Konferenz der Innenminister und -senatoren der Länder auf ihrer Sitzung am 5./6. Juni 1997 festgestellt, dass bei der Scientology-Organisation die gesetzlichen Voraussetzungen für die Beobachtung der Organisation durch den Verfassungsschutz gegeben sind. Im Februar 2008 hat das Oberverwaltungsgericht Münster die Zulässigkeit der Beobachtung durch das Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz für rechtens erklärt.

Quick translation of the first paragraph which contains the interesting bit:

Scientologists may advertise
Leonberg. Outrage over an information booth of the organization.
"How is it possible that Scientology - being monitored by the Verfassungsschutz - can get an approval for an info booth in Leonberg and is allowed to massively promote there?" an outraged reader writes to us. In the middle of last week the organization build up such a booth at the crossing Römerstr./Leonberger Str. and promoted itself by means of a free stress test. At the police precinct he was told Scientology got an approval, the reader writes"

Rest is legal mumbo-jumbo, translate for yourself if you wanna read it :P

The baseline is: Ordinary man sees stress test booth and his reaction is: To the police!!! Police tells him, it's okay. Man rages and writes to local newspaper to stir the shit up on the town administration.

And such is the reception of Scientology in Germany :D

Terril park

4th September 2011, 11:55 PM

You know the Germans closed down Ursula Caberta's department because Scientology had become so inconsequential that in effect her efficiency had done her out of a job.

I had no idea!

So which government dept or person is inviting Marty?

Auditor's Toad

4th September 2011, 11:57 PM

AS TP posted : "However.... hope springs eternal."

Mine too ! I hope to see the death of the cult known as scientology!

That would be " good for all mankind " as old bat shit crazy was wont to say.

Terril park

4th September 2011, 11:59 PM

Nah, Scientologist were innocent for once in that regard...it was a brutal battle for funds in the 2010 Hamburg state budget. And seeing that Co$ is besieged by Anons and in the decline the axe fell for Ursula's department.

I didn't know.

Terril park

5th September 2011, 12:05 AM

When you say "scn tech" are you meaning just the Red on White stuff? :unsure:
Or does this include Ethics Tech, Third Dynamic Tech, Tech on how to wash windows standardly?

And how about the "tech" that does this:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?16796-MICHEL-CANCER-AND-SUICIDE-ON-SOLO-NOTS

Yes I used " Red on white" as a metaphor.

I mean any scn tech that enhances individuals.

Tape lectures have no colour.

So there are the various axioms, the Factors, the grades
materials, and much more.

If one finds them useful, one, I for example, might consider myself
a scientologist.

That others do not is not particularly important.

Type4_PTS

5th September 2011, 12:10 AM

If the German government is inviting Marty because they've been studying his blog for the past two years, one would hope they have also been studying this board.

Maybe they're inviting him so they can take him into custody when he gets there. :biggrin:

It's like those sting operations that law enforcement does occasionally where they send a letter to some wanted criminals announcing that they've won some free tickets to an upcoming football game or something. When the wanted people show up to pick up their free tickets they're arrested and taken into custody.
http://www.usmarshals.gov/history/fist/football.htm

Arthur Dent

5th September 2011, 12:20 AM

Maybe they're inviting him so they can take him into custody when he gets there. :biggrin:

It's like those sting operations that law enforcement does occasionally where they send a letter to some wanted criminals announcing that they've won some free tickets to an upcoming football game or something. When the wanted people show up to pick up their free tickets they're arrested and taken into custody.
http://www.usmarshals.gov/history/fist/football.htm

Cracked me up! :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Damn! I hope you didn't blow their cover!

Ackerland

5th September 2011, 12:48 AM

I had no idea!

So which government dept or person is inviting Marty?

Good question. I believe she continues to work at the Office for the Protection of the Constitution. It would make sense, since she has unique expertise in this area and after her task force was closed down the OPC took over.
The conference seems to be organized by the interior ministry, which the OPC is subject to.

Krautfag

5th September 2011, 01:30 AM

Good question. I believe she continues to work at the Office for the Protection of the Constitution. It would make sense, since she has unique expertise in this area and after her task force was closed down the OPC took over.
The conference seems to be organized by the interior ministry, which the OPC is subject to.

I used my wikipedia-powers and behold:
"Sie ist außerdem Leiterin der seit 2001 bestehenden Obersten Landesjugendbehörde für den Jugendschutz bezüglich neuer und ideologischer Gemeinschaften und Psychogruppen, die ebenfalls zur Hamburger Innenbehörde gehört"

"She also is head of the 2001 established Chief State Youth Authority for Youth Protection in regard to new and ideological communities and psychogroups, which is also part of Hamburg ministry of the interior."

That has to be the longest name of a State Authority I have ever read. Plus if they afford Offices like that I don't wonder anymore why they are short on cash ^^

Smilla

5th September 2011, 02:14 AM

Yes I used " Red on white" as a metaphor.

I mean any scn tech that enhances individuals.

Tape lectures have no colour.

So there are the various axioms, the Factors, the grades
materials, and much more.

If one finds them useful, one, I for example, might consider myself
a scientologist.

That others do not is not particularly important.

The Cof$ and Marty will see you as being a Squirrel, due to your approval of CBR's tech. Neither of them will ever see you as being a 'proper' Scientologist. At best, Marty will see as being a useful idiot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

http://content8.flixster.com/photo/11/13/14/11131466_gal.jpg

Terril park

5th September 2011, 02:19 AM

The Cof$ and Marty will see you as being a Squirrel, due to your approval of CBR's tech. Neither of them will ever see you as being a 'proper' Scientologist. At best, Marty will see as being a useful idiot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

http://content8.flixster.com/photo/11/13/14/11131466_gal.jpg

Seems you regard me as even a lower class.

Couldn't care less.

love...

TheSneakster

5th September 2011, 02:25 AM

The Cof$ and Marty will see you as being a Squirrel, due to your approval of CBR's tech. Neither of them will ever see you as being a 'proper' Scientologist.

So, now you are a spokesperson for Co$ and Mark Rathbun ?

O RLY ?

Smilla

5th September 2011, 02:27 AM

Seems you regard me as even a lower class.

Couldn't care less.

love...

You misunderstand me. I think you are better than them, and the picture is not meant to be of you,.

Smilla

5th September 2011, 02:35 AM

So, now you are a spokesperson for Co$ and Mark Rathbun ?

O RLY ?

No, I am a spokesperson for myself, and nobody else.

Mystic

5th September 2011, 02:39 AM

So, now you are a spokesperson for Co$ and Mark Rathbun ?

O RLY ?

Oh is very easy to "speak" for any piece of the cult pie as they all have the same programming/implant.

Terril park

5th September 2011, 03:03 AM

You misunderstand me. I think you are better than them, and the picture is not meant to be of you,.

Love you to sweetie. :)

thetanic

5th September 2011, 04:20 AM

I presume he will give a similar view to my own, that scn tech and philosophy is separate from the awful abuses of CO$

But it's not, not at all.

There are more endemic abuses in Scientology than in the Bible, and that's saying something.

Nicole

5th September 2011, 05:10 AM

I used my wikipedia-powers and behold:
"Sie ist außerdem Leiterin der seit 2001 bestehenden Obersten Landesjugendbehörde für den Jugendschutz bezüglich neuer und ideologischer Gemeinschaften und Psychogruppen, die ebenfalls zur Hamburger Innenbehörde gehört"

"She also is head of the 2001 established Chief State Youth Authority for Youth Protection in regard to new and ideological communities and psychogroups, which is also part of Hamburg ministry of the interior."

That has to be the longest name of a State Authority I have ever read. Plus if they afford Offices like that I don't wonder anymore why they are short on cash ^^

Interesting... Than she was the head of the AGS closed last year, but she is still the head of the Chief State Youth Authority for Youth Protection in regard to new and ideological communities and psychogroups. (Long name is long...)

Ursula Caberta has written a new book: "Schwarzbuch Esoterik (http://www.hamburg.de/innenbehoerde/nofl/3019784/2011-08-09-bis-pm-esoterik.html)", this book is not against Scientology, it is against esoterism.

At the homepage of the Hamburg state she is called now sect expert. In the past I remember she was called Scientology expert.

„Schwarzbuch Esoterik“: Innensenator Michael Neumann stellt neues Buch von Sekten-Expertin Ursula Caberta vor

Veda

5th September 2011, 10:08 AM

Yes I used " Red on white" as a metaphor.

I mean any scn tech that enhances individuals.

-snip-

So "Green on white" is, in some instances, "Red on white."

And when you say "Red on white" you may very well be saying "Green on white."

:headspin:

Veda

5th September 2011, 10:33 AM

So, now you are a spokesperson for Co$ and Mark Rathbun ?

O RLY ?

As you well know, Sneakster, only RON himself can function as a spokesman for both the Cof$ and Marty Rathbun. As Chairman of the Galactic Grand Council, only RON has that authority. http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html I hope you are preparing yourself for the excitement of the great day of Unification, when all RON's children, Cof$ Scientologists, Independent Scientologists, Freezone Scientologists, and Free Zone (Ron's Orgs) Scientologists, will come together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyNh1j3dsp8

GoNuclear

5th September 2011, 11:53 AM

Maybe Marty can promise DM, say, 500 million bucks to go away and leave.

With Marty running the show it would just get more brutal, more ruthless, and - of course - even more expensive.

While not an indie or a believer in Marty-tech, I wish the guy well, and I don't buy that he would be worse than DM. Why? if he was ... considering DM's delusions and all around craziness ... if Marty was more cunning and more power hungry than DM, he would have been able to pull off a coup while still at int, or, after his sabatical at Flag, go back to int and pull off a coup. As I recall, reading some of the int base horror stories ... even some of the security people, in particular one who stood watch in the eagle's nest, would from time to time have DM literally in the cross hairs of a high powered rifle and would entertain fantasies of pulling the trigger. All it would take is a few security people, a private room, and a set of handcuffs ... all of which were available at the int base ... that and a few hours of free time between musters ... and a little physical persuasion. This could have all been accomplished without leaving a mark ... either via a simple pulp tester as found in any dentist office, perhaps at 5.4x the voltage just for fun ... or some water boarding, and the threat that if DM doesn't talk and spill the beans on how to access the bank accounts, and should the torture get more physical, then it wouldn't stop until he is dead. I am sure that DM would be delusional enough to believe that if he talked he would be allowed to live. Of course, as soon as the bank account info was verified accurate, DM would be given a new job ... pushing up desert flora somewhat off the int base. Nobody would miss him too much, except for his latest squeeze, who, of course, would meet a similar fate minus the torture. Really, that is all it would take.

I am not a particularly evil dude, but nevertheless, the thought of torturing people crosses my mind from time to time. Admit it, some of you out there think about that too ... not to seriously entertain, but, in considering how a crime could be pulled off, admit it ... it could come in handy. And don't think for one moment that DM hasn't considered torture as well.

Anyways, that is how to get the job done, all Marty would have needed was a small handful of co-conspirators. And to get those co-conspirators in useful positions, i.e., base security, all he would have had to have done is set them up to receive a beating at the hands of DM ... not all that difficult, considering. A security hoople on the edge anyways would easily be pushed over and consider getting some payback if he were to receive a COMPLETELY undeserved beating or two at the hands of the resident ooompa loompa. And please, again, don't tell me I'm the only guy out there that thinks of shit like that.

Anyways, my point is simply that if Marty wanted to stage a coup he have already done so ... running off to Texas was not the way to get it done.

Pete

Pooks

5th September 2011, 11:54 AM

You know the Germans closed down Ursula Caberta's department because Scientology had become so inconsequential that in effect her efficiency had done her out of a job.

Actually she still has her job but no staff and a very limited budget.

Infinite

5th September 2011, 12:25 PM

Actually she still has her job but no staff and a very limited budget.

Also, her office was "right sized" as part of budget austerity measures. The idea that it was decided Scientology in Germany is no longer a threat is plain dumb.

Friday, 21 December 2007, 16:46
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 HAMBURG 000073
SIPDIS
DEPARTMENT FOR EUR/AGS AND DRL.
SIPDIS
EO 12958 DECL: 12/21/2017
TAGS PGOV, PHUM, SOCI, GM
SUBJECT: HAMBURG VS. SCIENTOLOGY
REF: BERLIN 2211
HAMBURG 00000073 001.2 OF 003
CLASSIFIED BY: Karen Johnson, Consul General, U.S. Consulate General Hamburg, U.S. Department of State. REASON: 1.4 (b), (d) CONFIDENTIAL

SIPDIS

1. (C) SUMMARY: Since the creation of the Working Group on Scientology (AGS) in 1992 within its interior ministry with its firebrand leader, Hamburg has been at sharp odds with the Church of Scientology and more recently has taken a leading role in an attempt to ban the organization. On August 7, Hamburg's Interior Minister Udo Nagel (independent) announced the proposal to ban Scientology under Germany's Law of Associations. In November, the Hamburg State Parliament mandated him with submitting the proposal to the state interior ministers at their December meeting. Leadership within the Hamburg interior ministry, including from the Office for the Protection of the Constitution (OPC), has confirmed to ConGen Hamburg that the proposal is mainly politically motivated and that they expect the issue to die down at the latest after state elections in Bavaria. This cable examines the background to the heightened debate over Scientology in Hamburg. END SUMMARY.

HAMBURG'S WORKING GROUP ON SCIENTOLOGY

2. (SBU) In 1992, the Hamburg State Parliament created the Working Group on Scientology (Arbeitsgruppe Scientology or AGS) within the Hamburg interior ministry mandated to address all "destructive groups," which endanger society, in particular young people. AGS not only focuses on Scientology's activities within Hamburg, but also other organizations such as the Church of Satan, Transcendental Meditation, and the Unification Church. According to AGS Director Ursula Caberta, AGS and the Hamburg interior ministry view Scientology as a "politically motivated destructive cult." Thus, Caberta explained, as a state institution, it is their duty to protect the public from such organizations. In her meeting with Hamburg's Pol/Econ Officer and Specialist on November 13, she stressed that she viewed her work as that of a civil servant assigned to do a particular job by the state parliament. Currently, AGS's responsibilities are three-fold: 1) to analyze what steps the state must take to protect the public from "destructive groups;" 2) to educate the public about the dangers of such organizations; and 3) to assist victims. Hamburg is the only state in Germany with a Scientology working group. Under Caberta's leadership the working group has five employees. AGS offices were filled with books on Scientology, including all of L. Ron Hubbard's works and many of his lectures.

EUROPE UNDER ATTACK?

3. (C) Caberta stated that Scientology has declared "war on Europe." She cited evidence from Hamburg's Office for the Protection of the Constitution (OPC) annual reports of how Scientology attempts to influence politicians and political institutions as well as the press. According to the Hamburg OPC's 2006 report, Scientology continues to use methods that are "against the free, democratic constitutional structure," as was established in the 1997 State Interior Ministers meeting. Caberta asserted that Scientology in Germany has received orders from the Los Angeles headquarters to "conquer" Europe. She contends that the new Berlin headquarters have been set up for this "campaign." She continually stressed that she views Scientology not as a religious organization, but as a "political extremist" one. According to Caberta, the Hamburg Scientologists as well as most of the Scientology members in Germany are only "small fish" and the organization's strategic planning is conducted in the United States. Caberta showed Pol/Econ Officer and Specialist a booklet she had received early November that appeared to be published by Hamburg's mayor. The booklet contained the mayor's photograph and signature, yet was actually a publication from Scientology's "The Way to Happiness Foundation." Caberta contended that Scientology regularly used misleading methods to fool individuals into joining and said that such booklets had been distributed to other German cities. For someone unfamiliar with Scientology publications, the booklet looked very much like information brochures from the City of Hamburg.

4. (C) In a meeting at the consulate on December 19, Hamburg OPC leadership explained that it was a political decision for the

HAMBURG 00000073 002.2 OF 003

state OPCs to observe Scientology, based upon the "totalitarian assertions" described in L. Ron Hubbard's writings. They called their observation of Scientology "special," making it clear that they did not view the organization as a threat and that it was their responsibility to only collect information and not to pass judgment on the organization. They noted that while the OPC does not view Scientology as a religious organization, this would have no bearing on their work as the OPC observes both religious and non-religious institutions.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY'S TAKE

5. (C) In Hamburg's Pol/Econ Officer and Specialist's meetings with Hamburg Scientology figures , our contacts made it clear that the Hamburg church faces a particularly challenging situation with Caberta, who is now considered Germany's "expert" on Scientology. They also noted that Hamburg is the only German state that has a Scientology working group, although Berlin's ministry for education has a "sect-watcher" position. (Note: In a meeting on December 14, Hamburg Deputy State Minister of the Interior Christoph Ahlhaus told CG Johnson that Berlin has been trying to convince Caberta to transfer there. End Note.) Scientology press spokesman Frank Busch claimed that AGS is exempt from the German version of the Freedom of Information Act. He complained that Caberta is "above the law" and her work is not being assessed or monitored by the interior ministry. Busch questioned why this lack of scrutiny existed since Scientology found her work to be one-sided, factually incorrect, and "playing with the people's emotions." They believe that a normal citizen would have difficulty gathering objective information on Scientology in Hamburg. According to Busch, none of Hamburg's public libraries have any of L. Ron Hubbard's books. Scientology members are not allowed to distribute flyers in the city and private individuals allegedly monitor whether members overstep these boundaries. Busch also claimed that Hamburg's Chamber of Commerce still screens out Scientology members from hiring and encourages members to do so as well, even though the city of Hamburg has ceased such practices (known locally as a "sect-filter"). (Note: Documents containing the "filter" are available on-line at the Chamber of Commerce's webpage. End Note.)

NAGEL'S PROPOSAL TO BAN SCIENTOLOGY

6. (C) On August 7 at the press release of Caberta's "Black Book Scientology" Nagel announced that he would propose discussing banning Scientology at the December 7 state interior ministers meeting. In a conversation with Pol/Econ Specialist on August 13, Hamburg Interior Ministry Spokesman Marco Haase suggested that the announcement was the result of several unrelated occurrences, such as the recent publication of Caberta's book, the case of the Berlin girl and her brother seeking refuge in Hamburg (Ref.), the attention to Scientology generated during the filming of the movie "Valkyrie" in Berlin, in which Tom Cruise stars, and the summer media slump. According to Haase, Nagel believes that a ban alone is not the answer. Rather, assistance to ex-Scientologists and education on Scientology also have important roles to play. Nagel also believes that there is sufficient evidence suggesting that Scientology undertakes activities that undermine the German constitution.

7. (C) In a meeting on December 14 with Hamburg's CG and Pol/Econ Officer, Hamburg's Deputy State Minister for the Interior Christoph Ahlhaus clarified that Nagel certainly believes that Scientology should be banned, but he also realizes the political difficulties of such an endeavor. Ahlhaus explained that the Hamburg parliament charged Nagel in a unanimous decision on November 11 to propose the ban at the interior ministers meeting. He also stated that the ministry's involvement in the issue stems foremost from the criminal cases brought annually against Scientology. Ahlhaus said these numbered over 100 and had been increasing significantly. He also explained that the issue of Scientology was very popular with voters and confirmed that it had come up because of the February 24 Hamburg state elections. Ahlhaus expected that findings would be addressed at the interior ministers' spring meeting and that perhaps the issue would come up again with the Bavarian state elections next year. After that, he believed that the issue would fizzle out. Ahlhaus portrayed Hamburg as Scientology's German headquarters and noted that the

HAMBURG 00000073 003.2 OF 003

organization is also present in Berlin, Baden-Wurttemberg, and Bavaria, where banning Scientology also has political support. He commented that Scientology is almost like a "criminal organization" with Mafia-type structures.

COMMENT

8. (C) With a strong Scientology Church and the Scientology working group both located in Hamburg, the debate on Scientology in Germany reaches a zenith in this city. Caberta has become a national figure on the organization and Ahlhaus revealed that she often speaks to the press without clearing remarks through the interior ministry. He stated that Nagel believes she is a little "crazy" and assured the CG that Nagel's office keeps a close watch on her activities. In the meantime, although Nagel is an independent, he has stakes in the upcoming elections and other local politicians are keen to show voters that they are actively addressing their concerns. It is doubtful that the Hamburg government will change their view of Scientology in the future even though officials openly and cordially discuss with ConGen representatives USG policy on religious freedom. Nevertheless, the ban proposal may move to the back burner once elections have passed, leaving Scientology Hamburg and AGS to deal with their regular concerns. END COMMENT.

9. (U) This message has been coordinated with Embassy Berlin. JOHNSON

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/135450

Nicole

5th September 2011, 01:25 PM

Also, her office was "right sized" as part of budget austerity measures. The idea that it was decided Scientology in Germany is no longer a threat is plain dumb.

One thing I want to explain... I think something is mixing here. Germany has 16 Bundesländer (=states)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany

Germany comprises sixteen states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany) (Bundesländer),[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#cite_note-60) each one having its own state constitution (Landesverfassung)[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#cite_note-61) and largely autonomous in regard to its internal organisation. Due to differences in size and population the subdivision of these states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany#Further_subdivisions) varies, especially between city states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_states) (Stadtstaaten) and states with larger territories (Flächenländer). On municipal level there are 439 districts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Germany) (Kreise) and cities (kreisfreie Städte).]The closed task forced (AGS) was in the city state Hamburg, this state has its own constitution. The task force made a great job all over Germany and other countries.... The Hamburg senat decided that the task forced got closed. It wasn't a desicion from the German parlaiment. In other states like mine North Rhine Westphalia the secret service (Verfassungsschutz) is "observing" Scientology and collecting crimes etc. about Scientology. They do their great work since lots of years and in my state is a Sektenberatungsstelle (http://sekten-info-nrw.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=40) (sect advice center). The state North Rhine Westphalia finance a part of this advice center and the advice center works against Scientology too. We have more institutions "against" Scientology here in Germany.

But the Hamburg task force was something very special in Germany, because they were specialised on the Scientology topic.

...and now Germany hasn't invited Marty, the state Hamburg has invited him. Imo it is a big difference.

Feral

5th September 2011, 01:46 PM

Also, her office was "right sized" as part of budget austerity measures. The idea that it was decided Scientology in Germany is no longer a threat is plain dumb.

Are you stalking me Blip?

So what is your contestation? That despite the fact Scientology is a National threat they downsized the office dealing with it to one staff.....hmm?

Doesn't seem likely, does it my creepy little friend?

They're not KIWIS you know.

I read it was downsized (OCMB (http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=32771) initially reported closed here) after the census results were discussed and put the number of Scios between 5 and 6,000 the CofS was found to be utterly inconsequential to National security.The cult was claiming 30,000 members and I think between that and it's similarity to the Third Reich the Germans were getting a little edgy. If someone had told me that at the time they would have saved me hours of IAS regging and tens of thousands of dollars.

Can I find the exact link where the reason for downsizing was given? No. Not yet, it might've even been a third party opinion, maybe I'll remember where I read it and maybe someone will rescue me.

The Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_Task_Force_of_the_Hamburg_Interior_Aut hority) is here.

You posted an old link to the proposal to ban Scn. wasn't that plan found to be in violation of international treaties or human rights? Something about the separation of church and state became a stumbling block I think. Reminds me of Aaron Saxtons plans. It's also as relevant to this conversation as the spots on trains.

dianaclass8

5th September 2011, 01:56 PM

LOL! Smilla you are so funny sometimes! I love the picture, is that Nosferatu?

The Cof$ and Marty will see you as being a Squirrel, due to your approval of CBR's tech. Neither of them will ever see you as being a 'proper' Scientologist. At best, Marty will see as being a useful idiot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

http://content8.flixster.com/photo/11/13/14/11131466_gal.jpg

Smilla

5th September 2011, 02:01 PM

LOL! Smilla you are so funny sometimes! I love the picture, is that Nosferatu?

Yes it is. I love that photo - Nosferatu looks really sweet there, and the hat is fabulous!

dianaclass8

5th September 2011, 02:22 PM

Yes it is. I love that photo - Nosferatu looks really sweet there, and the hat is fabulous!

Very appropiate for your original posting...I love your black sense of humor...LOL!:happydance:

Infinite

6th September 2011, 03:37 AM

Are you stalking me Blip?

So what is your contestation? That despite the fact Scientology is a National threat they downsized the office dealing with it to one staff.....hmm?

Doesn't seem likely, does it my creepy little friend?

They're not KIWIS you know.

More with the ad homs, Feral. Wattaguy.

I read it was downsized (OCMB (http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=32771) initially reported closed here) after the census results were discussed and put the number of Scios between 5 and 6,000 the CofS was found to be utterly inconsequential to National security.The cult was claiming 30,000 members and I think between that and it's similarity to the Third Reich the Germans were getting a little edgy. If someone had told me that at the time they would have saved me hours of IAS regging and tens of thousands of dollars.

Can I find the exact link where the reason for downsizing was given? No. Not yet, it might've even been a third party opinion, maybe I'll remember where I read it and maybe someone will rescue me.

The Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_Task_Force_of_the_Hamburg_Interior_Aut hority) is here.

You posted an old link to the proposal to ban Scn. wasn't that plan found to be in violation of international treaties or human rights? Something about the separation of church and state became a stumbling block I think. Reminds me of Aaron Saxtons plans. It's also as relevant to this conversation as the spots on trains.

Ursula Caberta said Europe was "under attack" from Scientology. She has not moderated that statement. Her comments were carried in a leaked US State Department memo suggesting Germany needed to soften its stance on this issue. Scientolology is not a religion in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany), thus, separation from state and relgion does not apply in this case. It would seem the cult is generating some government interference in the domestic matters of a foreign sovereign state. Looks like a left over machination from the cult's 1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Recognition_as_a_religion)actions. Your position appears to be that, now, four years later, Scientology is no longer a threat. Doesn't add up.

lotus

6th September 2011, 03:56 AM

Very appropiate for your original posting...I love your black sense of humor...LOL!:happydance:

I do to
Black humour is often the only way to deal with some issues, becauswe there is no other way to adress black sense of human rights of some people and their gross lies.

So
back to the serious subjet of this thread
here is my comment

Marty or DM handling germany????

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X7dP3Xz-Z5k/TSUYfpcGL_I/AAAAAAAAACA/i1C3QS92YiQ/s1600/greed.jpg

Mystic

6th September 2011, 04:02 AM

Plan for Germany and the Beach Clam:

Make it appear that the Beach Clam "handled" Germany, appear such to Mr. David Miscavige, great leader of the Church of Scientology.

("Beach Clam" is, of course, Marty. Who I think handles a garden hose very well. Handling Germany, :hysterical:)

Feral

6th September 2011, 04:59 AM

More with the ad homs, Feral. Wattaguy.

Considering about half your posts of the last week have consisted of trolling me on behalf of the tinfoilers who have been left out of the loop regarding what's been happening since the Inquiry I think I'm entitled to say what I see.

Stalking is creepy Blip.

Infinite

6th September 2011, 05:25 AM

Feral

6th September 2011, 07:06 AM

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6119310816_7e9796190a.jpg

Nice stalking, very mature, not creepy at all.

LongTimeGone

6th September 2011, 07:44 AM

<SNIP> ...This time they informed me they had studied very thoroughly everything I had written and done over the past two years, and that they understood what we have done has accomplished more in curbing “church” of Scientology abuses than any other factor... <SNIP>

Why didn't our Marty do this when he was part of the cult's senior management?

Besides, the abuses are still occurring and the craziness is still apparent.

With any luck it is a trap to get him out of the U.S. and locked up for his part in those very same abuses.

LTG

Ackerland

6th September 2011, 11:34 AM

Live updates about Marty's arrival in Hamburg over at http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/rathbun-in-hamburg.93129/page-4

Panda Termint

6th September 2011, 12:46 PM

:hysterical: How can you not love Anonymous? :hysterical:

Feral

6th September 2011, 12:50 PM

Blip, you know, the stuff that really is worse than annoying about you is that while a lot of people are exposing and working at the cult, more and more efficiently as time goes on too, (link) (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?24548-Scientology-Game-Over-Australia-May-Be-About-to-Bankrupt-CoS-Operations-Down-Under)you are working at and trolling the people working at the cult. In this case it's me. Sometimes others too, like Janet Rechtman for being too balanced in her journalism.

I had a sheep dog like that, while we were moving stock he'd work my motorbike or the other dogs, not much use at all.

To add to that you are not well informed, most of your information comes from people who were excluded for betraying confidences or wearing their tinfoil too tightly and for your part all you can do is watch the critic movement through them vicariously, (either that or through old links on the web) so you, by default take a position based mostly on a viewpoint which stems from their butthurt; trainspotters, who, if they ever saw past their tinfoil hats they'd realise almost all of their "knowledge" is based on speculation in absence of data, because no one who knows what's going on actually is silly enough to talk to them. If you're in doubt about that ask about the butter squash.

You're in the position of someone who is looking at the decor while his head is in the toilet bowl. You really don't even know what's past the porcelain, you're out of the loop playing guessing games with clues fed to you by the tactically challenged.

Now, is stalking me your idea or have you been recruited to my "old" job; "attack dog for the vulnerable yet conniving"?

Infinite has

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6119310816_7e9796190a.jpg

FIFY.

Infinite

6th September 2011, 06:45 PM

. . . whole lotta bawwwwwwwww . . .

Uninformed? Heh! That's funny. Lets review, shall we:

You know the Germans closed down Ursula Caberta's department because Scientology had become so inconsequential that in effect her efficiency had done her out of a job . . .

1 It was Hamburg, not Germany, which instituted the budget cuts

2 Ursula's office is still open

3 Scientology is still considered a significant risk

4 Ursula still has her job

Stalking? Heh!! Now that's *really* funny. Again, lets review:

1 You are the one traipsing around after me on WWP

2 You are the one with Facebook spais reporting back on my groups

3 You are the one posting non sequitor, random imported drama about me

4 You are the one using ESMB to slander my friends and lie about others

So, who's stalking whom . . . hmmmm?

Krautfag

6th September 2011, 06:56 PM

Now stop bitching the two of you :P

Far more interesting question:

Does anyone know who is this ?

http://i26.lulzimg.com/1d23eb.jpg

Feral

6th September 2011, 11:46 PM

Uninformed? Heh! That's funny. Lets review, shall we:

Sure, read below;

1 It was Hamburg, not Germany, which instituted the budget cuts

2 Ursula's office is still open

3 Scientology is still considered a significant risk

4 Ursula still has her job

Last year the Green Government (it's a coalition between the CDU and the Greens that I don't pretend to understand) deemed that most of the problem with Scientology in Germany was that the Govt had failed to communicate with them and had not given them enough *love* (note sarcasm). That's when Caberta's office was cut from 6 staff to just her. She refers to it as her office being closed and she blames the Federal Govt. for pressuring the Hamburg Govt under the guise of austerity measures.

The office wasn't downsized because they thought they were under *more* threat but less. I don't mean by that *all* Germans thought it or any one on this board, just the Federal Govt. and possibly only a few within it that caused the budget cuts and forced them onto the Hamburg Govt.

Before this happened last year Ursula had money to re-integrate people leaving the cult into society and send them to get qualifications, as well as the six staff to help her. All that is gone now and Ursuala said that they the cult used Tom Cruise, I *think* when he was filming "Valkyrie" in the same way that was laid out by Marty Rathbun here (http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/david-miscavige-the-cheater/).

Of your four points you are just plain wrong on three, on the fourth I never said she didn't have a job. So *please* STFU.

On a more positive note Ursula is very excited that Marty is there and hopes to get re opened on the basis of what he can offer about his fairgaming and evidence regarding corporate Scientology.

These events in Germany herald a major shift against The CofS and will be a huge barrier to them playing their religious persecution card in the future.

Stalking? Heh!! Now that's *really* funny. Again, lets review:

1 You are the one traipsing around after me on WWP

I don't post on WWP, your thread was brought to my attention after you were trolling here and pretending that you knew more than the people actually doing the work.

2 You are the one with Facebook spais reporting back on my groups

ORLY? You've got DOX for that?

Blip, what I know about your group(s) can be predicted from knowing the two more agitated members. I don't have spais, don't need them, you are far too predictable in your pure trolling.

3 You are the one posting non sequitor, random imported drama about me

4 You are the one using ESMB to slander my friends and lie about others

So, who's stalking whom . . . hmmmm?

You have been stalking and trolling Blip, I'm trying to stop it, as I said, it's creepy.

scooter

7th September 2011, 01:20 AM

This is all looking very exciting - at least to those of us whose only agenda is the downfall of the cult.:coolwink:

Thanks for the update, Feral - glad you have gotten the scoop from Ursula herself on what's going down there.:thumbsup:

Wonder what the reply from the "Tactically Challenged" will be?:hysterical:

J. Swift

7th September 2011, 01:24 AM

I can hardly wait for the documentary!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/PaddleboatontheRhine.png

/////

ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn

7th September 2011, 01:31 AM

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/PaddleboatontheRhine.png

/////

They aren't just fighting for mankind's survival ... they are man's only hope

apocalyptic

7th September 2011, 01:58 AM

oh god

Population of German +/- 83 million

Then total population of Sci's in Germany is 0.009%.

There are -/+ 312 million united states citizens. There are 435 representatives in congress and 50 senators. Assuming our math is correct that would be 485 individuals.

Further assuming each gov. individual has one Executive Secretary, we would have 485 such individuals. (think scientology doctrine regarding political power).

The U.S. Department of State has repeatedly claimed that Germany's actions constitute government and societal discrimination against minority religious groups and expressed its concerns over the violation of Scientologists' individual rights posed by sect filters (circa 1997).

8000 scientologists in Germany is akin to one single billy goat in a field of lambs.

All of the lambs will eventually, get fucked.

Apocalyptic

Auditor's Toad

7th September 2011, 02:03 AM

Every time I read the title to this thread I crack up.

Marty is going to a cluster fuck of his own making.

apocalyptic

7th September 2011, 02:06 AM

:hysterical: How can you not love Anonymous? :hysterical:

By being David Miscaviage?

Cherished

7th September 2011, 03:51 PM

You know the Germans closed down Ursula Caberta's department because Scientology had become so inconsequential that in effect her efficiency had done her out of a job...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6119310816_7e9796190a.jpg

Print (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-522348,00.html)
E-Mail (http://www.spiegel.de/extra/0,1518,267802,00.html)
Feedback (http://www1.spiegel.de/active/kontakt/fcgi/lesermail.fcgi?artikelid=522348)

12/10/2007

Lack of Evidence

Agencies Warn Scientology Ban Doomed to Fail

Germany's domestic intelligence agencies are warning that an effort by the country's interior ministers to ban Scientology could fail. They say the group has failed to gain a foothold in German society and that there isn't enough evidence to support freezing its activities.

...

In the run-up to Friday's meeting (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,522052,00.html), domestic intelligence agencies determined that the organization does indeed operate in ways that are hostile to the country's constitution. The dangers presented by the group they found, however, were limited because Scientology has had little success "infiltrating" German society. The group's membership numbers have also stagnated.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,522348,00.html

Markus

7th September 2011, 03:55 PM

Infinite

7th September 2011, 04:06 PM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,522348,00.html

And yet . . .

. . . German courts have so far not resolved whether Scientology should be accorded the legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached contradictory conclusions.[1] German domestic intelligence services have monitored the organization's activities. The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion. It views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany

Auditor's Toad

7th September 2011, 04:37 PM

. . . German courts have so far not resolved whether Scientology should be accorded the legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached contradictory conclusions.[1] German domestic intelligence services have monitored the organization's activities. The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion. It views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution .

Straightforward.

Captain Koolaid

7th September 2011, 05:10 PM

This is the official position on Scientology in Germany: Since the organisation is monitored by OPC, they have been very careful not to provide evidence that could put their current status in jeopardy. It is also not easy to ban the group, the attempt to ban the NPD, an openly racist party that denies the Shoa, when it turned out during the trial that the evidence was provided by moles working for the government. This rendered the evidence useless.

Officials also don't want to give the cult reason to play the martyrs by screaming religious persecution, and it's also a worry that the organisation will then go underground, which would make it a lot tougher to monitor. Unless Scientology makes a real blunder, a ban is not considered here. The cult will eventually starve to death, as it will in other countries.

Auditor's Toad

7th September 2011, 05:16 PM

When OSA unleashes an all out attack with their navy ( a paddleboat ) then all of Germany will fold and Marty will be chased into France.

This is WAR !

Smilla

7th September 2011, 05:21 PM

The downfall of which "cult" scooter? The cult of David Miscavige or the cult of L. Ron Hubbard :coolwink:

Love
Markus

Cof$ Cult + Freezone Cult + Independent Cult = The Greater Cult of Hubbard.

The Scientology Trinity of Scientology Fundamentalist Fanatics:

1. Belief in the infallability - or near-infallability of Hubbard.
2. The belief in a Standard Hubbard Tech.
3. KSW.

Cof$ Mother Cult = Hijacked Pseudo-Orthodoxy.

Independent Cult = Orthodoxy.

Freezone Cult = Squirrel's in the eyes of Mother Cult and Independent Cult, by virtue of their recognition of a Source, teaching, and practices other than Hubbard's - Captain Bill, Galactic Patrol.