OT IX Document on Wikileaks

[NoName]

Davey, you haven't released OT IX yet, but somehow some confidential OT IX documents have made it onto Wikileaks.

Can you check on this link (http://tiny.cc/jn2qd) and let us know?

It could be a real cash cow for you. Maybe even set you up with a new life in a country that won't extradite.

[dianaclass8]

That link is a teaser! hahahaa!

I thought that Wikileaks had released the OT IX documents by Class XII Pierre Ethier...because Marty already informed us that OT IX-XII did not exist.

Yet DM, him and the rest played the game and sold them for pretty penny.

The whole story is right there on the link below...

http://aidathomas.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dsc09710.jpg?w=346&h=558

[Mark A. Baker]

...because Marty already informed us that OT IX-XII did not exist. ...

Since when did MR become a 'reliable source'? :whistling:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

[dianaclass8]

Since when did MR become a 'reliable source'? :whistling:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

Mark;

Somehow I believe Marty, because if there were really OT IX and X as Pierre Ethier once boasted on his website, he would have already delivered them to the OT VIIIs in the 'freezone' and would have bragged about it....:blah:

[Mark A. Baker]

Mark;

Somehow I believe Marty, because if there were really OT IX and X as Pierre Ethier once boasted on his website, he would have already delivered them to the OT VIIIs in the 'freezone' and would have bragged about it....:blah:

Choosing who is the less deceitful, MR or PE. Hmmmm. :questions:

Generally speaking and simply examining the two individuals in question I'd go with Pierre. PE is strictly an amateur. When PE 'stretches a truth' he does a poor job of it.

When it comes to deceit, misrepresentation, and intentional duplicity: MR is The Old Pro. :thumbsup:

As to the OT levels, I'm inclined to the view that from lrh on down none of the official versions hold much water as presented. Audit the processes that indicate to the pc. That will produce a decent product for a person. Just don't expect much from the hype associated with the ot levels.


Mark A. Baker

[dianaclass8]

Choosing who is the less deceitful, MR or PE. Hmmmm. :questions:

Generally speaking and simply examining the two individuals in question I'd go with Pierre. PE is strictly an amateur. When PE 'stretches a truth' he does a poor job of it.

When it comes to deceit, misrepresentation, and intentional duplicity, MR is The Old Pro. :thumbsup:

As to the OT levels, I'm inclined to the view that from lrh on down none of the official versions hold much water as presented. Audit the processes that indicate to the pc. That will produce a decent product for a person. Just don't expect much from the hype associated with the ot levels.


Mark A. Baker

Well, one is hillarious! LOL! Pierre Ethier:p he is so outrageous it is almost funny!:biggrin:

While the other has no qualms about confessing his crimes... Marty:duh:

From Marty:

When the folders turned out to contain no holy grail, Broeker then said he had other LRH writings that constituted the keys to OT IX and X.

Another raid ensued – in which I coordinated a squad of armed outside security personnel to secure the premises.

What does this mean? Was Marty willing to order his armed squad to shoot and muder Pat Broeker?:omg:

[Mark A. Baker]

Well, one is hillarious! LOL! Pierre Ethier:p he is so outrageous it is almost funny!:biggrin:

While the other has no qualms about confessing his crimes... Marty:duh:

From Marty:

When the folders turned out to contain no holy grail, Broeker then said he had other LRH writings that constituted the keys to OT IX and X.

Another raid ensued – in which I coordinated a squad of armed outside security personnel to secure the premises.

What does this mean? Was Marty willing to order his armed squad to shoot and muder Pat Broeker?:omg:

You misunderstood, Diana. :no:

MR was not 'confessing his crimes'. He was boasting about his 'Dedication to Source' and willingness to take whatever measures he may deem necessary in order to carry out 'Command Intention'. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

[dianaclass8]

You misunderstood, Diana. :no:

MR was not 'confessing his crimes'. He was boasting about his 'Dedication to Source' and willingness to take whatever measures he may deem necessary in order to carry out 'Command Intention'. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

I see, said the blind man...when he could not see anything...LOL!

[Mark A. Baker]

I see, said the blind man...when he could not see anything...LOL!

Buenos noches, amiga. Or should I say: buenos dias? :coolwink:

Good night!


Mark A. Baker

[dianaclass8]

Buenos noches, amiga. Or should I say: buenos dias? :coolwink:

Good night!


Mark A. Baker

Still "buenas noches" :thumbsup:

[Vittorio]

You misunderstood, Diana. :no:

MR was not 'confessing his crimes'. He was boasting about his 'Dedication to Source' and willingness to take whatever measures he may deem necessary in order to carry out 'Command Intention'. :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

You couldn't make this stuff up? I don't believe that Marty thinks he has done anything wrong here. It does confirm however that the Church experienced a takeover of sorts and it was done with brutal force and even armed security personal! The people doing it believed they were doing it for Hubbard. I don't believe that and I don't trust the communication lines between Hubbard and these people as being real. At the end of the day they (Miscavige, Rathbun and crew) were doing this for THEMSELVES. If LRH was ordering this, they wouldn't need armed security to steal from Pat Broeker, a Scientologist in good standing. What we have here, is an admission that he was involved in starting a new era of Scientology, that, in Mick Wenlocks words 'crushed people's hope'.

What Pierre says here is totally irrelevant in my opinion until he actually produces an OT IX, which he hasn't. So it's Marty we got to look at. The Church sold OT IX also and never delievered it. There is, as of present no proof of OT IX ever existing except being listed on the grade chart. Super Power we know exists, because A; Someone has done it and B; Some of the data has been leaked. Maybe this is a mystery that Pat Broeker can help solve.

[MostlyLurker]

You couldn't make this stuff up? I don't believe that Marty thinks he has done anything wrong here. It does confirm however that the Church experienced a takeover of sorts and it was done with brutal force and even armed security personal! The people doing it believed they were doing it for Hubbard. I don't believe that and I don't trust the communication lines between Hubbard and these people as being real. At the end of the day they (Miscavige, Rathbun and crew) were doing this for THEMSELVES. If LRH was ordering this, they wouldn't need armed security to steal from Pat Broeker, a Scientologist in good standing. What we have here, is an admission that he was involved in starting a new era of Scientology, that, in Mick Wenlocks words 'crushed people's hope'.
...

The above was after LRH death.

But nevertheless power struggles started in the late 70's to overthrow MSH and although LRH was off lines he congratulate with the winners (DM) afterward.

I believe power struggles started in 1966 with LRH efforts to increase his domination scientology orgs and scientologists.

On a second thought, the way LRH treated partners and "squirrels" right from the beginning (1950) tells me he never did anything else but fight to dominate and control people.

[Vittorio]

The above was after LRH death.

But nevertheless power struggles started in the late 70's to overthrow MSH and although LRH was off lines he congratulate with the winners (DM) afterward.

I believe power struggles started in 1966 with LRH efforts to increase his domination scientology orgs and scientologists.

On a second thought, the way LRH treated partners and "squirrels" right from the beginning (1950) tells me he never did anything else but fight to dominate and control people.

Two questions which might be useful to know the answer to would be;

1. Who sent Hubbard into the OTO to 'break up black magic' (if that was the case)

2. Who advised Mary Sue that Operation Snow white was a good idea (aside from Hubbard)

[NoName]

That link is a teaser! hahahaa!



Yeah, I really hope Davey does read this board. :lol:

[Feral]

That link is a teaser! hahahaa!

I thought that Wikileaks had released the OT IX documents by Class XII Pierre Ethier...because Marty already informed us that OT IX-XII did not exist.

Yet DM, him and the rest played the game and sold them for pretty penny.

The whole story is right there on the link below...

http://aidathomas.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dsc09710.jpg?w=346&h=558

To obtain and refit the Freewinds the CofS "advance sold" OT VIII and IX to all and sundry, note the date of the invoice, many of the packages were never taken up even in the part of OT VIII. I'm sure now to use them incurs the holder many extra costs.

There is no reward for loyalty in the Cof$.

[dianaclass8]

To obtain and refit the Freewinds the CofS "advance sold" OT VIII and IX to all and sundry, note the date of the invoice, many of the packages were never taken up even in the part of OT VIII. I'm sure now to use them incurs the holder many extra costs.

There is no reward for loyalty in the Cof$.

Feral,

That invoice is a testament of their criminal, illegal fraudulent acitivities.

Just that little piece of paper alone should be enough to investigate the CofS and to put top 'execs' in jail.

M& M were selling bullshit that was not available along with their master David Miscavige.

They are still doing it...I frankly do not understand their followers despite their 25 years of professional criminal activities.

[dianaclass8]

You couldn't make this stuff up? I don't believe that Marty thinks he has done anything wrong here. It does confirm however that the Church experienced a takeover of sorts and it was done with brutal force and even armed security personal! The people doing it believed they were doing it for Hubbard. I don't believe that and I don't trust the communication lines between Hubbard and these people as being real. At the end of the day they (Miscavige, Rathbun and crew) were doing this for THEMSELVES. If LRH was ordering this, they wouldn't need armed security to steal from Pat Broeker, a Scientologist in good standing. What we have here, is an admission that he was involved in starting a new era of Scientology, that, in Mick Wenlocks words 'crushed people's hope'.

What Pierre says here is totally irrelevant in my opinion until he actually produces an OT IX, which he hasn't. So it's Marty we got to look at. The Church sold OT IX also and never delievered it. There is, as of present no proof of OT IX ever existing except being listed on the grade chart. Super Power we know exists, because A; Someone has done it and B; Some of the data has been leaked. Maybe this is a mystery that Pat Broeker can help solve.

Marty, Mike, Pierre...none of them think that what they are doing is wrong...they continue doing it...when they were in...and now when they are out...as long as they have people giving them money...

[Happy Days]

That link is a teaser! hahahaa!

I thought that Wikileaks had released the OT IX documents by Class XII Pierre Ethier...because Marty already informed us that OT IX-XII did not exist.

Yet DM, him and the rest played the game and sold them for pretty penny.

The whole story is right there on the link below...

http://aidathomas.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dsc09710.jpg?w=346&h=558

In viewing this invoice I find it unfortunate that it's a generic invoice with no letterhead, no office details, no invoice number etc. Of course I see parts have been blocked out but it look like an invoice from an invoice book you buy from the local newsagent. So hopefully there is another doc to back this up.

Just saying :)

[Auditor's Toad]

No OT level beyond OT VIII exists.... or ever existed.

To "sell" such a level is, in and of itself, fraud.

It really is that simple.

All it takes is one person who piad for it to file suit and have them present evidence in court that OT IX exists... or OT X... or OT XI or OT XII.

Those levels do not now exist, nor have they ever.

[Freeminds]

Why hasn't OT IX been released? It can't possibly be because it doesn't work: if you ceased to deliver Scientology courses on the grounds that the 'Tech' doesn't work, there would be no Scientology.

So why no OT IX? I reckon because the potential... the anticipation... is worth much more (in terms of its ability to awe and control) than the reality could possibly be. Another round of auditing out Hubbardian era space cooties, and once again the bait and switch, and even the most misguided Scientology victim is going to be looking for the exit.

[Auditor's Toad]

Perhaps one very good reason another level beyond 8 has not bee released is look at what has heppened to the 8s.

Somewhere less than 3,000 have done 8 and look how many have either gone into the wood work or up and left the cult!

The " retention " number sucks. They can NOT control the 8s and they know that.

Why in the world would they open the door OUT even wider?

Anyway, they get many people onto 7 and THAT is a problem. Maybe, at most, worldwide 1200 are "actively" on 7.

scn is being stared down by FAIL.

There is no point to "higher" levels when they already can't keep people in the fold.

[DartSmohen]

Sorry to spoil a good story, but here are the facts; :melodramatic:

After the ORIGINAL OT6, the next step was to be "The Final Rundown". It was to do with universes. :omg:

However, Hubbard in his deteriorating mental state had it destroyed, in a fit of anger. :angry:

So, whatever has been "issued" since 1967 (apart from the original OT 7 - a remedy to assist those paddling about trying to run OT3) is a load of baloney. Hubbard was simply too far gone to be of any use or function in the area of upper level research. :no:

This matter has been written up . You can read about it on WWW.PAULSRABBIT.:clap:

How do I know this ?
Well, I was Chief of Advanced Courses. I administered them to the public and staff on the ship in 1968 and was the Research Auditor. :)

I was also the one who actually read what Hubbard had written on the full "OT 3 story", also the steps for the Final Rundown and the confidential Ethics Order on "Xemu". The only other people who had seen the steps for the final rundown and the EO were Bill Robertson and Otto Roos. The materials were kept in a safe, for which I held the combination. :ohmy:

Whatever is being touted as "OT 8, 9, 10-15 etc is a creation of people who are trying to "sell a secret". They have absolutely no idea how the mind works and these materials are factually incapable of producing the stated end result. Unless, of course, the poor sucker wants to "attest to completion. :duh:

Dart

[Mark A. Baker]

Sorry to spoil a good story, but here are the facts; :melodramatic:

After the ORIGINAL OT6, the next step was to be "The Final Rundown". It was to do with universes. :omg: ...

Couldn't find any reference to "The Final Rundown", Dart. Can you cite page references? Or alternately, would you care to describe here?


Mark A. Baker

[DartSmohen]

Couldn't find any reference to "The Final Rundown", Dart. Can you cite page references? Or alternately, would you care to describe here?


Mark A. Baker

Mark,

You won't find any references. This was an unissued procedure, in Hubbard's handwriting, kept in a secure safe. It was after the ship backed into the harbour wall in Valencia that Hubbard went crazy and in his tantrum he ordered that the rundown be destroyed as "the world didn't deserve it".

If you want to follow up on this aspect, then read "Gods in Disguise" by Alan Walter. He covered the subject far more comprehensively than Hubbard. I did impart the information to him well before he wrote that book.

Dart

[Royal Prince Xenu]

So we have some evidence of selling "vaporware". There are companies out there that got started by doing exactly this. Remember the dotcom boom and collapse? Co$ has no monopoly on selling empty promises.

[Jachs]

So, whatever has been "issued" since 1967 (apart from the original OT 7 - a remedy to assist those paddling about trying to run OT3) is a load of baloney. Hubbard was simply too far gone to be of any use or function in the area of upper level research.



Dart , too far gone? , but when do you think the start of the downward slide for hubbard occurred ?

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

So we have some evidence of selling "vaporware". There are companies out there that got started by doing exactly this. Remember the dotcom boom and collapse? Co$ has no monopoly on selling empty promises.

It's not exactly 'Vaporware', it's 'Scientology', not different than penis enlargement pills, or remedies guaranteed to have you lose 50 lbs by the weekend. The way I see it, in this day and age, if you are willing to pay for these scams without spending thirty seconds to research them on the internet, you deserve to lose your money, because you are too stupid to keep it.

Scientology including OTIX and OTX is an IQ test, if anyone gets you to part with your money for any of Hubbard Con Game... you failed.

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Dart , too far gone? , but when do you think the start of the downward slide for hubbard occurred ?

Loooooooooooooooong before 1966, a sane man does not dress up like The Skipper from Gilligan's Island and then creates a fake navy of naive impressionable teenagers to mentally abuse and rule over on the high seas.

[Jachs]

Although Hubbard was deranged, an antagonistic war monger, he had motive , was well read, and was sharp if only to cut for his own motive, its easy to underestimate him and cast him off as deluded in all things, he had the attributes of a two sided sword.

hubbard had a lot of networking assistance from some well intending people, and that was his beginning & less policing period. 50-60

Your right though he did create a fake navy, and the motive was probably because he was rejected by the US navy.

[Vittorio]

Sorry to spoil a good story, but here are the facts; :melodramatic:

After the ORIGINAL OT6, the next step was to be "The Final Rundown". It was to do with universes. :omg:

However, Hubbard in his deteriorating mental state had it destroyed, in a fit of anger. :angry:

So, whatever has been "issued" since 1967 (apart from the original OT 7 - a remedy to assist those paddling about trying to run OT3) is a load of baloney. Hubbard was simply too far gone to be of any use or function in the area of upper level research. :no:

This matter has been written up . You can read about it on WWW.PAULSRABBIT.:clap:

How do I know this ?
Well, I was Chief of Advanced Courses. I administered them to the public and staff on the ship in 1968 and was the Research Auditor. :)

I was also the one who actually read what Hubbard had written on the full "OT 3 story", also the steps for the Final Rundown and the confidential Ethics Order on "Xemu". The only other people who had seen the steps for the final rundown and the EO were Bill Robertson and Otto Roos. The materials were kept in a safe, for which I held the combination. :ohmy:

Whatever is being touted as "OT 8, 9, 10-15 etc is a creation of people who are trying to "sell a secret". They have absolutely no idea how the mind works and these materials are factually incapable of producing the stated end result. Unless, of course, the poor sucker wants to "attest to completion. :duh:

Dart

Thank you for that Dart. So essentially, Marty and co were selling something that didn't exist in the Church and Pierre Ethier is continuing to do the same outside of the Church. Could you give any insight into whether occult/magic procedures were used as part of Ron's Upper Level Reasearch and whether he was using drugs to facilitate his research?

[Mark A. Baker]

Mark,

You won't find any references. This was an unissued procedure, in Hubbard's handwriting, kept in a secure safe. It was after the ship backed into the harbour wall in Valencia that Hubbard went crazy and in his tantrum he ordered that the rundown be destroyed as "the world didn't deserve it".

If you want to follow up on this aspect, then read "Gods in Disguise" by Alan Walter. He covered the subject far more comprehensively than Hubbard. I did impart the information to him well before he wrote that book.

Dart

Okay, thanks. I have read 'Gods ...'. It's one of two books by Alan that I have. You're right. It is a good read. I've been able to use it to help others.


Mark A.Baker

[Stephanie]

That link is a teaser! hahahaa!

I thought that Wikileaks had released the OT IX documents by Class XII Pierre Ethier...because Marty already informed us that OT IX-XII did not exist.

Yet DM, him and the rest played the game and sold them for pretty penny.

The whole story is right there on the link below...

http://aidathomas.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dsc09710.jpg?w=346&h=558

Hi Diana,

I've been trying to download from Wikileaks and nothing downloads, there are no seeds and/ or peers for the Scientology documents, so how does one go about getting them to download?

thx,
s

[Panda Termint]

Stephanie, There are no dox. The OP is a Rickroll.

[Jachs]

Theres always Crowleys OTO IX

All subsequent Degrees of the O.T.O. are accordingly elaborations of the IIø, since in a single ceremony it is hardly possible to sketch, even in the briefest outline, the Teaching of Initiates with regard to Life. The Rituals V°–IX° are then instructions to the Candidate how he should conduct himself; and they confer upon him, gradually, the Magical Secrets which make him Master of Life.

It is improper to disclose the nature of these ceremonies; firstly, because their Initiates are bound by the strictest vows not to do so; secondly, because surprise is an element in their efficacy; and thirdly, because the Magical Formulae explicitly or implicitly contained therein are, from a practical point of view, both powerful and dangerous.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_13.html

[Stephanie]

Stephanie, There are no dox. The OP is a Rickroll.

So then does that mean at this time, no one can download anything from Wikileaks?

[NoName]

So then does that mean at this time, no one can download anything from Wikileaks?

So... I heard that DM himself reads everything on the internet that is posted about him because he is a paranoid self-obsessed product of his environment with LRH. Knowing that, and knowing that the anons have been singing this song outside some of the orgs and missions, I posted the OP as a Rickroll for DM.

I don't know whether or not Wikileaks is functioning. That's a separate issue. I don't even know if there is an OT IX forgery out there, for that matter.

I had insomnia, and I decided to mess with the Dwarfenfuhrer in the middle of the night while half asleep. That's what the OP is.

[Hatshepsut]

Sorry to spoil a good story, but here are the facts; :melodramatic:

After the ORIGINAL OT6, the next step was to be "The Final Rundown". It was to do with universes. :omg:

However, Hubbard in his deteriorating mental state had it destroyed, in a fit of anger. :angry:

.....snipped....

Dart

Now that makes perfect sense to me. I have not heard McMaster talk of "The Final Rundown" though.

Maybe the reason nobody wanted to get into handling 'universes' is because it may have given too much validity to others' viewpoints . Any time Scientology starts to address the relationship of a viewpoint of dimension to the 'immortal' timeless residing aspect of a being it seems to drop the ball. I've met many who have had wins in starting to cross this threshhold and they pretty fast get given problems that bring them back down to nestle in ego consciousness. (Especially problems given to them within the C of S) Is there some sacred secret?

OT VIII was purported to reveal a person's true relationship to the 8th Dynamic. It crashed here it seems. Maybe to LOOK from outside our universe and from the perspective of many vectors is to be unmocking to the intention to remain an 'individual'. Could be the simple basics of it. :unsure: As if taking a sufficient amount of attention 'out' of our private sector made it more vulnerable or left a feeling of our 'self' disappearing.

Perhaps God suffered some trauma and split into many fragments as if in defense. I can't help but think there is a basic engramic reason individual viewpoints of dimension sometimes attack other individuals especially when they sense another very exterior being is regaining god-like capabilities. It's almost as if they fear being eaten or absorbed or dominated by an 'enemy'. But then speculating about a rundown that never existed or else could not be implemented is......

[MrNobody]

So then does that mean at this time, no one can download anything from Wikileaks?

No, it just means you've been Rickrolled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickrolling). :wink2:

[Helena Handbasket]

I have seen the OT IX documents, and furthermore, I have done the process.

Of course, I'm talking about OT IX in RONS Orgs (Phoenix), not in the church (Orders Of Magnitude). :eyeroll: In RONS Orgs you can go all the way up to OT XLVIII if you're so inclined. :biggrin:

Helena

[Cat's Squirrel]

Perhaps one very good reason another level beyond 8 has not bee released is look at what has heppened to the 8s.

Somewhere less than 3,000 have done 8 and look how many have either gone into the wood work or up and left the cult!

The " retention " number sucks. They can NOT control the 8s and they know that.

Why in the world would they open the door OUT even wider?

Anyway, they get many people onto 7 and THAT is a problem. Maybe, at most, worldwide 1200 are "actively" on 7.

scn is being stared down by FAIL.

There is no point to "higher" levels when they already can't keep people in the fold.

I think a large part of the problem is that once you realise that even 8 doesn't do it for you, it's harder for the SO (most of whom haven't done the level themselves) to sell you upon the idea that 9, 10, 11 etc. will.

[Lulu Belle]

Perhaps one very good reason another level beyond 8 has not bee released is look at what has heppened to the 8s.

Somewhere less than 3,000 have done 8 and look how many have either gone into the wood work or up and left the cult!

The " retention " number sucks. They can NOT control the 8s and they know that.

Why in the world would they open the door OUT even wider?

The situation with the OT VIIIs has existed since the level was released. It did not seem that the level motivated these people to do more in Scientology; just the opposite. From what I recall, a lot of them became less active than they had been previously.

Class VIII seemed to have a similar reaction. Granted, there were a certain number of Pro FSMs and field auditors who were VIIIs, but the majority of the Class VIIIs in the field in the 90s were extremely inactive and many, if not most, appeared to be quite disaffected.

I've told this story before: There was a girl at AOLA who was put on a project to recover Class VIIIs. Per LRH, VIIIs get to retread the level for free. She would try to get them to talk on the phone, and if she could even get them to answer, a lot of them hung up on her. She said the inactive Class VIIIs in the field were the nastiest and most disaffected people in Scientology she'd ever encountered.

So much for "the top of the Bridge"... Seems like people ae more enthusiastic when they are anticipating these levels than they are when they actually attain them. Wonder why that is? :eyeroll:

[Lulu Belle]

So... I heard that DM himself reads everything on the internet that is posted about him

Jesus. No wonder he drinks so much. :eyeroll:

[dianaclass8]

Class VIII seemed to have a similar reaction. Granted, there were a certain number of Pro FSMs and field auditors who were VIIIs, but the majority of the Class VIIIs in the field in the 90s were extremely inactive and many, if not most, appeared to be quite disaffected.

I've told this story before: There was a girl at AOLA who was put on a project to recover Class VIIIs. Per LRH, VIIIs get to retread the level for free. She would try to get them to talk on the phone, and if she could even get them to answer, a lot of them hung up on her. She said the inactive Class VIIIs in the field were the nastiest and most disaffected people in Scientology she'd ever encountered.

So much for "the top of the Bridge"... Seems like people ae more enthusiastic when they are anticipating these levels than they are when they actually attain them. Wonder why that is? :eyeroll:

That girl at AOLA that told you the story was lying and she knows it. I was at AO in the 90's and there were plenty of active Class VIIIs.

As a matter of fact there was a huge Class VIII reunion with all of the class VIIIs from all over the planet at Celebrity Center International where all of the execs attended, except for Miscavige who is always busy attending events with the Patrons and above.

Also AOLA was NOT promoting the Class VIII course at all, I had to make the reg to sell me the course, she wanted me to do OT4 and 5 instead and I said: -no, sell me the Class VIII and I will co-audit OT 4 and she was not too happy. Which reg? Pretty much all of them.

Then while I was on a Class VIII retread (almost all of the Class VIIIs do the free retreads, why not? one of the few free things in the CofS) a woman named Katie Sabella walked in the academy one day and she gave an order: -that's it everybody, get out of the academy, we are closing the Class VIII course.

Just like that, suddenly, in the middle of a checksheet, at course time, she was mean and she did not care, I said -no way, I gotta finish my checksheet and she told us that if we didn't leave she'd call security to drag us out of the building. Karen Hamilton the course sup. She was speechless, livid but said nothing, she simply obeyed orders.

There were a couple of Class VIIIs that had not finished the course at all, and were upset because they paid and of course there was no refund.

And just like that, in the 90's the Course was cancelled.:no:

And for the next ten years or so, the Church of Scientology did not produce a single Class VIII. Why? because Miscavige knew that some of us Class VIII would not put up with his crap.

After that, all of us that were auditing in the field were ordered by Griffy Blythe to bring a video of our sessions to her for a critique, I questioned it and I was sent to ethics, everybody who did the video got their certs suspended and were sent to retread at the expense of the auditor. Violating the PL Failed Class VIIIs.

Any decent Class VIII would not want to have anything to do with the GAT and the BS arbitraries from RTC. Most left and the ones with less integrity waited until they got kicked out.

[dianaclass8]

Jesus. No wonder he drinks so much. :eyeroll:

LOL!

[dianaclass8]

Hi Diana,

I've been trying to download from Wikileaks and nothing downloads, there are no seeds and/ or peers for the Scientology documents, so how does one go about getting them to download?

thx,
s

There's nothing to download, nobody has seen any OT IX documents, Pierre Ethier invented he had them but when I asked him he could not produce them.

[HelluvaHoax!]

There's nothing to download, nobody has seen any OT IX documents, Pierre Ethier invented he had them but when I asked him he could not produce them.


Remarkable!

Ethier invents a story about OT IX.

Which is, itself a story invented about OT IX by the CoS.

Which is, in turn a story invented about OT IX by LRH.

Inventive bunch, aren't they?

[Lulu Belle]

That girl at AOLA that told you the story was lying and she knows it. I was at AO in the 90's and there were plenty of active Class VIIIs.

As a matter of fact there was a huge Class VIII reunion with all of the class VIIIs from all over the planet at Celebrity Center International where all of the execs attended, except for Miscavige who is always busy attending events with the Patrons and above.

Also AOLA was NOT promoting the Class VIII course at all, I had to make the reg to sell me the course, she wanted me to do OT4 and 5 instead and I said: -no, sell me the Class VIII and I will co-audit OT 4 and she was not too happy. Which reg? Pretty much all of them.

Then while I was on a Class VIII retread (almost all of the Class VIIIs do the free retreads, why not? one of the few free things in the CofS) a woman named Katie Sabella walked in the academy one day and she gave an order: -that's it everybody, get out of the academy, we are closing the Class VIII course.

Just like that, suddenly, in the middle of a checksheet, at course time, she was mean and she did not care, I said -no way, I gotta finish my checksheet and she told us that if we didn't leave she'd call security to drag us out of the building. Karen Hamilton the course sup. She was speechless, livid but said nothing, she simply obeyed orders.

There were a couple of Class VIIIs that had not finished the course at all, and were upset because they paid and of course there was no refund.

And just like that, in the 90's the Course was cancelled.:no:

And for the next ten years or so, the Church of Scientology did not produce a single Class VIII. Why? because Miscavige knew that some of us Class VIII would not put up with his crap.

After that, all of us that were auditing in the field were ordered by Griffy Blythe to bring a video of our sessions to her for a critique, I questioned it and I was sent to ethics, everybody who did the video got their certs suspended and were sent to retread at the expense of the auditor. Violating the PL Failed Class VIIIs.

Any decent Class VIII would not want to have anything to do with the GAT and the BS arbitraries from RTC. Most left and the ones with less integrity waited until they got kicked out.

Diana,

My "time track" on some of this stuff is a little fuzzy. I'll tell you what I remember.

Karin Koski Class VIII suping era is previous to the time I'm talking about. I remember when you were talking about the VIII course. This was when Reggie Caldwell was the Class VIII I/C. You are right. The course was doing very well at the time.

Even so, there were a LOT of VIIIs in the LA area who were not active and not auditing or involved with tech whatsoever. They were driving taxis or hanging acoustical tile, not auditing.

Karin wound up under baby watch for a year because RTC found out she put confidential references on her computer and they thought she was the person responsible for the stuff getting onto the internet. Katie Sabella became the sup after that.

The reason the Class VIII Course was closed at AOLA in the 90s was because of the GAT thing. DM said the VIII Course could only be done at Flag. Of course, because of GAT, people had to retrain from the bottom up to do it anyway. So, probably no one was being allowed to retread it for free at Flag or anywhere else.

As I'm sure you know, there has always been a love hate - heavy on the hate - relationship that the Sea Org orgs have had with field auditors and field auditing. The orgs need them but they don't trust them. I don't think that there is any policy that is sympathetic to the freedom that field auditors are supposed to have that was ever consistently followed in Scientology. And for the last 20 years at least all of them have been basically cancelled. Field auditors have to do what the Sea Org says or they can't audit. Period. No matter how many LRH references it violates.

[Lulu Belle]

Then while I was on a Class VIII retread (almost all of the Class VIIIs do the free retreads, why not? one of the few free things in the CofS) a woman named Katie Sabella walked in the academy one day and she gave an order: -that's it everybody, get out of the academy, we are closing the Class VIII course.

Just like that, suddenly, in the middle of a checksheet, at course time, she was mean and she did not care, I said -no way, I gotta finish my checksheet and she told us that if we didn't leave she'd call security to drag us out of the building.

I have to admit Katie was kind of bitchy. That was just her personality.

But I'm sure most of what was behind this was what she was being ordered to do. Probably the CMO came in and told her she had to tell you that. They were probably standing right behind her when she said this to you.

Just my experience with this kind of stuff.

[dianaclass8]

Diana,

My "time track" on some of this stuff is a little fuzzy. I'll tell you what I remember.

Karin Koski Class VIII suping era is previous to the time I'm talking about. I remember when you were talking about the VIII course. This was when Reggie Caldwell was the Class VIII I/C. You are right. The course was doing very well at the time.

Even so, there were a LOT of VIIIs in the LA area who were not active and not auditing or involved with tech whatsoever. They were driving taxis or hanging acoustical tile, not auditing.

Karin wound up under baby watch for a year because RTC found out she put confidential references on her computer and they thought she was the person responsible for the stuff getting onto the internet. Katie Sabella became the sup after that.

The reason the Class VIII Course was closed at AOLA in the 90s was because of the GAT thing. DM said the VIII Course could only be done at Flag. Of course, because of GAT, people had to retrain from the bottom up to do it anyway. So, probably no one was being allowed to retread it for free at Flag or anywhere else.

As I'm sure you know, there has always been a love hate - heavy on the hate - relationship that the Sea Org orgs have had with field auditors and field auditing. The orgs need them but they don't trust them. I don't think that there is any policy that is sympathetic to the freedom that field auditors are supposed to have that was ever consistently followed in Scientology. And for the last 20 years at least all of them have been basically cancelled. Field auditors have to do what the Sea Org says or they can't audit. Period. No matter how many LRH references it violates.

It is true that some of the Class VIIIs were not auditing. The Orgs hate field auditors with a passion, yet they wasted a lot of decent auditors when the GAT came out.

Some staff at LAO called me 'mercenary auditor' in a KR because I refused to join staff when I graduated. And at CCI they called me to audit their Spanish speaking celebrities and when I asked for pay I was told that my pay was the "priviledge of auditing a celebrity". I was trying to reg Placido Domingo's son in the field and they told him that they had a Spanish Class VIII auditor hand picked just for him and that I was no good and that he needed a team behind him..blah, blah, blah.

When him and his wife arrived, of course they had no Class VIII auditor, for I was the only Spanish Class VIII in the whole West Coast! Then the DofP at CCI called me and asked me if I could audit Joe Domingo for them! sheesh! After they ripped off my client! They have the nerve to come and deliver for them for free! They assigned him a totally inexperienced auditor and it was a disaster, I could never pick him up in the field again because of the 'two year rule'

[dianaclass8]

I have to admit Katie was kind of bitchy. That was just her personality.

But I'm sure most of what was behind this was what she was being ordered to do. Probably the CMO came in and told her she had to tell you that. They were probably standing right behind her when she said this to you.

Just my experience with this kind of stuff.

Katie Sabella was probably following orders, however she did not need to be poisonous in her attitude towards us Class VIII, she was expremely disrepectful and rude that was not necessary. She ended up blowing.

[Operating DB]

Davey, you haven't released OT IX yet, but somehow some confidential OT IX documents have made it onto Wikileaks.

Can you check on this link (http://tiny.cc/jn2qd) and let us know?

It could be a real cash cow for you. Maybe even set you up with a new life in a country that won't extradite.

I LOVE THAT SONG!

[Lulu Belle]

It is true that some of the Class VIIIs were not auditing. The Orgs hate field auditors with a passion, yet they wasted a lot of decent auditors when the GAT came out.

Some staff at LAO called me 'mercenary auditor' in a KR because I refused to join staff when I graduated. And at CCI they called me to audit their Spanish speaking celebrities and when I asked for pay I was told that my pay was the "priviledge of auditing a celebrity". I was trying to reg Placido Domingo's son in the field and they told him that they had a Spanish Class VIII auditor hand picked just for him and that I was no good and that he needed a team behind him..blah, blah, blah.

When him and his wife arrived, of course they had no Class VIII auditor, for I was the only Spanish Class VIII in the whole West Coast! Then the DofP at CCI called me and asked me if I could audit Joe Domingo for them! sheesh! After they ripped off my client! They have the nerve to come and deliver for them for free! They assigned him a totally inexperienced auditor and it was a disaster, I could never pick him up in the field again because of the 'two year rule'

Yeah. I know.

I get it.

I was thinking a lot about this subject today. I thought I might even start a new topic on it, because it's a big issue.

Even when I was on staff, I realized why people aren't interested in investing a whole lot of money and time into getting tech trained.

You have to realize the amount of time and money and effort spent by Scientology management trying to break this "getting people to train" thing.

And yet the reason for people not buying training was so obvious it is almost painful.

You can't make any money being an auditor.

If you aren't staff in an org or a mission, what's the point in paying all that money and spending all that time getting trained?

There really is a basic...I don't know the term exactly...underriding current, especially at the Sea Org level, that a person who is not on staff who is using Scientology to make a living is ripping off the orgs.

Which is kind of bizzare, when you think about all the advertising and PR hype Scientology puts out there about how training will help you make more money, training will make you more successful, yadda, yadda, yadda.

"Train for life."

The reality is that orgs and management think of field auditors as shysters who, every hour they audit a pc, is an hour the orgs can't put on their stats. An hour that doesn't get paid into the GI.

Those of us with a shred of sense know the real role field auditors play in getting people in. But that's not how it's actually perceived.

And it doesn't stop with field auditors. Scientology schools, field groups, etc. are all thought of pretty much this way.

I remember hearing, when I was on staff in the mid-90s, the results of an "invest" that basically that Scientologists were spending their money putting their kids into Delphi rather than buying services.

That was their "out ethics."

I kid you not.

This is part of the whole mindset that created the 1982 Mission Holder Conference.

[Gottabrain]

OT VIII was purported to reveal a person's true relationship to the 8th Dynamic. It crashed here it seems. Maybe to LOOK from outside our universe and from the perspective of many vectors is to be unmocking to the intention to remain an 'individual'. Could be the simple basics of it. :unsure: As if taking a sufficient amount of attention 'out' of our private sector made it more vulnerable or left a feeling of our 'self' disappearing.

Perhaps God suffered some trauma and split into many fragments as if in defense.

Heya Hats! :blowkiss:

This is really good.

I also believe one cannot fully participate as an individual in the here and now while looking from completely outside. So we must have view "points" (as differentiated from viewpoints), meaning, locations from which a spirit can easily shift for different views.

In Hinduism, there are four. The one inside that most people normally use and view from, the one that controls the body (normally on automatic or mechanical bodily controls), the one above/near a person's body (where those who have near death experiences view from) and the one after death that is completely outside and connected to God (Referred to as one's Third Eye).

Nobody who has gone through a near death experience has ever described that last one. It would seem that we cannot fully assume that view point at all until complete death and then we're gone gone gone and out of here, however, Hindi gurus that claim to leave the body with a transcendental one claim to do it by creating a magnetic field between all four view points.

[NoName]

That Hindu explanation makes a lot of sense. I've been very close to death twice in my life, and I remember seeing myself from above. People think I am insane when I say that. I was talking to one Ex-Scno on here about exteriorization, an d he believed me about it. But I can't say I was ever far away from my body, and both times I saw myself from above. That Hindu explanation actually makes a lot of sense.

[Gottabrain]

I thought you'd like it, Hats. I completely believe you about the ext thing, too. :yes:

[Freeminds]

. . .
I was thinking a lot about this subject today. I thought I might even start a new topic on it, because it's a big issue.
. . .

It's an interesting subject. Please do. :thumbsup:

[Gottabrain]

It's an interesting subject. Please do. :thumbsup:

:duh: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[Vittorio]

Carisa Marion Good to know! Happy travels Pierre and keep those OT IX comps coming!

Quoted from Pierre's blog. So he is apparently delievering OT9 now.

[dianaclass8]

Hi Lulu

I just saw your response. I was acused today of making money with Scientology by Skip Press, LOL...he did not make me mad, his ignorance just surprised me.

I spent a lot of time training and co-auditing. I have seen how the scientologists have learned to make stupid points of views depending on the circunstances; they become experts at having double standards. Like you say here that staff considering parents out ethics for putting their children at Delphi instead of buying services.

And the double standard goes on...later, when they leave...like here at ESMB, many of the critics that were part of the machinery that they so criticize now.
The monster that the CofS has become it is because of those double standards.


Yeah. I know.

I get it.

I was thinking a lot about this subject today. I thought I might even start a new topic on it, because it's a big issue.

Even when I was on staff, I realized why people aren't interested in investing a whole lot of money and time into getting tech trained.

You have to realize the amount of time and money and effort spent by Scientology management trying to break this "getting people to train" thing.

And yet the reason for people not buying training was so obvious it is almost painful.

You can't make any money being an auditor.

If you aren't staff in an org or a mission, what's the point in paying all that money and spending all that time getting trained?

There really is a basic...I don't know the term exactly...underriding current, especially at the Sea Org level, that a person who is not on staff who is using Scientology to make a living is ripping off the orgs.

Which is kind of bizzare, when you think about all the advertising and PR hype Scientology puts out there about how training will help you make more money, training will make you more successful, yadda, yadda, yadda.

"Train for life."

The reality is that orgs and management think of field auditors as shysters who, every hour they audit a pc, is an hour the orgs can't put on their stats. An hour that doesn't get paid into the GI.

Those of us with a shred of sense know the real role field auditors play in getting people in. But that's not how it's actually perceived.

And it doesn't stop with field auditors. Scientology schools, field groups, etc. are all thought of pretty much this way.

I remember hearing, when I was on staff in the mid-90s, the results of an "invest" that basically that Scientologists were spending their money putting their kids into Delphi rather than buying services.

That was their "out ethics."

I kid you not.

This is part of the whole mindset that created the 1982 Mission Holder Conference.

[dianaclass8]

Yes, he was delivering OT 9 and 10 in Italy recently, when his PC posted a complaint about him on a group in Facebook and the whole topic became a hen house...LOL.
With Pierre's wife Catherine Ethier using a sock puppet pretending to be a famous singer. Pathetic as usual. His PCs are still complaining about him going to sleep in session.


Quoted from Pierre's blog. So he is apparently delievering OT9 now.

[Mystic]

....

[looker]

BTW: Snoring in a OT7 session IS allowed as its considered... Choose one of the following:

1. Doing OT-TR0.
2. Heavy case Boil off,
3. Out of body exploration with throat singing.

Maybe this belongs in the 100 moast stupid Scientology justifications. :p

[R2-45]

The situation with the OT VIIIs has existed since the level was released. It did not seem that the level motivated these people to do more in Scientology; just the opposite. From what I recall, a lot of them became less active than they had been previously.

Class VIII seemed to have a similar reaction. Granted, there were a certain number of Pro FSMs and field auditors who were VIIIs, but the majority of the Class VIIIs in the field in the 90s were extremely inactive and many, if not most, appeared to be quite disaffected.

I've told this story before: There was a girl at AOLA who was put on a project to recover Class VIIIs. Per LRH, VIIIs get to retread the level for free. She would try to get them to talk on the phone, and if she could even get them to answer, a lot of them hung up on her. She said the inactive Class VIIIs in the field were the nastiest and most disaffected people in Scientology she'd ever encountered.

So much for "the top of the Bridge"... Seems like people ae more enthusiastic when they are anticipating these levels than they are when they actually attain them. Wonder why that is? :eyeroll:

(I know it's an old thread, but...)



:hmm:


Let's say you have a dog that chases cars.

Have you ever wondered what would happen if you arranged for him to actually catch one?



:hysterical:

[phenomanon]

(I know it's an old thread, but...)



:hmm:


Let's say you have a dog that chases cars.

Have you ever wondered what would happen if you arranged for him to actually catch one?



:hysterical:

Yah. It's an old thread but I hadn't read it.
The subject of te Class8 free retread came up, and I want to comment on that. The AOLA HGC was comprised for the most part of Non-SO Auditors. All of us Class 8s. One day the DofT comes in and says that it has been found off-policy for Non-SO to audit in the HGC. So the Class 8s had the choice of leaving the Org, or routing onto the free retread. Ann Snyder and Sandy Schultz talked me into doing the retread. It was my 4th time thru the checksheet.

At this same time, Alan Walter, and most of my other "power terminal" friends had been delared, en masse, at the Mission Holders' Conference. It was appalling to a one who had done OEC-FEBC as well as Class 8 to see how "tech" was being shat upon.

Also at that time, AOLA's MAA, Gary Jacob, asked my participation in baby sitting an HGC PC named David Voorhies who had gone bonkers on OT3, and AO needed a place to keep him until he could be sent away. I asked Gary how crazy was he, was he screaming out of OT3? Gary told me not to worry, that they had him on a program, and were giving him Thorazine and telling him that it was vitamins.

That ended my career as an Org Auditor abruptly. I said " I pass", and went to the HGC, packed up my meter and shield and my materials, and left the Org. I wrote my resignation letter the next day.

My daughter disconnected a few short months later.

My husband was on the SHSBC, and reported to class as usual. The Sup handed him a routing form to Ethics, and he took it and left the Org. He knew that 'disconnection' would be required were he to remain in the Org.
Nearly all of y'all have read this story before. I am telling it again for Newbies.

phenom anon

[PirateAndBum]

Thorazine, wowza. So AOLA has a psychiatrist on hand to prescribe mind numbing drugs?

I don't understand why you wouldn't volunteer to help poor Dave. All he'd need was someone to wipe the drool from his chin...

Shit, if the public I knew ever heard that AOLA had put a guy on Thorazine they'd have flipped right the fuck out!


BTW, in case anyone is interested, I have the OT IX "Orders of Magnitude" materials.

[Terril park]

Thorazine, wowza. So AOLA has a psychiatrist on hand to prescribe mind numbing drugs?

I don't understand why you wouldn't volunteer to help poor Dave. All he'd need was someone to wipe the drool from his chin...

Shit, if the public I knew ever heard that AOLA had put a guy on Thorazine they'd have flipped right the fuck out!


BTW, in case anyone is interested, I have the OT IX "Orders of Magnitude" materials.

Interested :)

Note "Challenge" class VIII left because she was asked to admiminister thorazine to a PC.

Sadly she has left this forum.

Mods I'll try and get her back. May need nelp.

[Panda Termint]

Terril, "phenomanon" is Challenge. She's already back.

[phenomanon]

Terril, "phenomanon" is Challenge. She's already back.

God, Terrill, didn't you get the backchannel gossip?

phenom anon

[Panda Termint]

Lol, sometimes it's hard to keep up. :)

[Terril park]

God, Terrill, didn't you get the backchannel gossip?

phenom anon

I guess not. Glad you're back :)

[Dulloldfart]

God, Terrill, didn't you get the backchannel gossip?

phenom anon

Well, I didn't get it until you mentioned the thorazine incident. Good to see you back here. :)

Paul

[phenomanon]

Thorazine, wowza. So AOLA has a psychiatrist on hand to prescribe mind numbing drugs?

I don't understand why you wouldn't volunteer to help poor Dave. All he'd need was someone to wipe the drool from his chin...

Shit, if the public I knew ever heard that AOLA had put a guy on Thorazine they'd have flipped right the fuck out!


BTW, in case anyone is interested, I have the OT IX "Orders of Magnitude" materials.

My AOLA DofP told me tat Gene Denk had written the C/S for Thorazine.

I wasn't about to slip Thorazine to a guy.

ph

[phenomanon]

Lol, sometimes it's hard to keep up. :)

One must sometimes need those backchannel "clues" to keep one "in the know".

ph

[phenomanon]

I guess not. Glad you're back :)

Thanks.

[phenomanon]

Well, I didn't get it until you mentioned the thorazine incident. Good to see you back here. :)

Paul

Thanks, Paul.
I will tell you how this happened. I don't think it is much of anyone's business, but I respect you and don't want you to think that I am trying to deceive.
After I left the board as Challenge, I got a new Internet provider. Along with the new ISP, I was forced to get a new email address. After about 6 months of being off the Board, I tried to log back on s Challenge. No dice. Board would not accept. I had instructed Emma to delete my account as Challenge, and I didn't know if she did or not. When I tried to log in as Challenge, the 'prompt' told me the name was already in use. I tried contacting Admin. When you are not a member of the Board, it is not that easy to get anywhere on the board. When I finally found a way to email Admin ( Mick), a page from Outlook opens. There is no way, from that page that I could figger out how to 'send' an email. I did the best I could.
Finally, I just started over, and 'coined' a new nic.
My new email address has my full name in it, so I thought it no secret that Admin knew who I was/am. That's as far as I thought with it. I didn't think that anyone else would care, as this is not a "personality" board. ( LOL). I relly didn't think much of it, as I have seen others change their posting nics a multitude of times, and Emma had told me in the past that she would change mine if I asked. I thought it no big deal. I still don't think anyone gives a crap with the exception of 2 or 3 posters who would like me outta here no matter what.
You know that I am not computer savvy. At my age, I am lucky to be able to navigate at all. Whatever.
That's my story.
If I wanted to re3main hidden, I would never have posted a revealing story.

my best to you, and my thanks for all that you have contributed.

phenomanon

[Dulloldfart]

Thanks, Paul.
I will tell you how this happened. <snip>

Thanks for all the background. I appreciate it.

And you. :)

Paul

[PirateAndBum]

Yes, thanks, that is good to know. Not all of us are in on the back-channel hidden data line. <snickers>

Denk, what a nice chap. Took care of good ole Ronny boy as well when he needed his Vistaril.

[Panda Termint]

One must sometimes need those backchannel "clues" to keep one "in the know".

ph
Perhaps, but I spotted it simply by paying attention to what you said, not to anything said by another. :)

[phenomanon]

Yes, thanks, that is good to know. Not all of us are in on the back-channel hidden data line. <snickers>

Denk, what a nice chap. Took care of good ole Ronny boy as well when he needed his Vistaril.

I'm sure as hell NOT ON IT! I hate that shit!
But on that Grudge Match thread thing a certain poster said that she knew who I was right away, and had clued her friends in. I would have thought Terrill would be on her call in list, hence my comment to him about the backchannel.


phenomanon

[phenomanon]

Perhaps, but I spotted it simply by paying attention to what you said, not to anything said by another. :)

Of course. I thought that anyone who read my posts would spot the sameness.

phenomanaon

[Enthetan]

Yah. It's an old thread but I hadn't read it.
The subject of te Class8 free retread came up, and I want to comment on that. The AOLA HGC was comprised for the most part of Non-SO Auditors. All of us Class 8s. One day the DofT comes in and says that it has been found off-policy for Non-SO to audit in the HGC. So the Class 8s had the choice of leaving the Org, or routing onto the free retread. Ann Snyder and Sandy Schultz talked me into doing the retread. It was my 4th time thru the checksheet.


I remember this happening in the early 80's, where a mission went in (Laurie Englehart was one of the missionaires) and the non-SO auditors were supposed to get persuaded to join the SO. Am I remembering the same incident you are?

The real issue was that non-SO auditors were getting paid actual money to audit in the HGC, and this didn't sit well with Flag.

Regarding the disaffection of Class 8's in the 90's, how much of this do you think was from increasing barriers for field auditors?

[phenomanon]

I remember this happening in the early 80's, where a mission went in (Laurie Englehart was one of the missionaires) and the non-SO auditors were supposed to get persuaded to join the SO. Am I remembering the same incident you are?

The real issue was that non-SO auditors were getting paid actual money to audit in the HGC, and this didn't sit well with Flag.

Regarding the disaffection of Class 8's in the 90's, how much of this do you think was from increasing barriers for field auditors?

The Cl 8's being paid to audit was NOT the real issue. AOLA promised to pay, but often thay did not. AOLA still owes me money. So does CCLA, so does ASHO.
The 8s , in the 80s, were being sued, or threatened with being sued, over Copyright issues. A field auditor had to join IHelp, and sign a contract saying that they recognised RTC as the owners of the Tech, and giving RTC reps the right to enter your establishment at any time to inspect your work. They charged for this at some ridiculous rate. In exchange for this, IHelp would send you the most recent HCOBs.
By the 90s I expect that it had become clear that an Auditor could not make any kind of living by auditing. Neither in the Org, nor in the Field, without grovelling and begging for permission from RTC.
There were a scant few field auditors who would submit to the RTC. Joe Hochman did. He and his wife are still practicing in LA. I think Trey did for awhile. Not sure bout that. But I think most 8s had the integrity to tell RTC to go fish.

[Enthetan]

The Cl 8's being paid to audit was NOT the real issue. AOLA promised to pay, but often thay did not. AOLA still owes me money. So does CCLA, so does ASHO.
The 8s , in the 80s, were being sued, or threatened with being sued, over Copyright issues. A field auditor had to join IHelp, and sign a contract saying that they recognised RTC as the owners of the Tech, and giving RTC reps the right to enter your establishment at any time to inspect your work. They charged for this at some ridiculous rate. In exchange for this, IHelp would send you the most recent HCOBs.
By the 90s I expect that it had become clear that an Auditor could not make any kind of living by auditing. Neither in the Org, nor in the Field, without grovelling and begging for permission from RTC.
There were a scant few field auditors who would submit to the RTC. Joe Hochman did. He and his wife are still practicing in LA. I think Trey did for awhile. Not sure bout that. But I think most 8s had the integrity to tell RTC to go fish.

I think a big part of it was the money (I know some SO members had their noses out of joint over the idea, regardless of whether it actually got paid). Part of it was the embarrassment that AOLA had to rely on field auditors to audit public.

I mean, how can you say in your promo that the org delivers much better tech than field auditors, when a senior org is using field auditors for delivery?

A friend knew a Cl 8 field auditor in the Clearwater area, to whom he would go to for auditing since it was less stressful than walking into an org.

Some years ago, that auditor stopped his practice in the face of increasing harassment. One example was being told that a flub (or at least what an org CS considered a flub) now meant he would have to retrain. All the way back to Cl 8.

The auditor correctly interpreted this as a demand he cease and desist from field auditing. He no longer audits, although I think he's still officially in Scientology. He may just be in because he works at a Scn-owned company.

[Terril park]

The Cl 8's being paid to audit was NOT the real issue. AOLA promised to pay, but often thay did not. AOLA still owes me money. So does CCLA, so does ASHO.
The 8s , in the 80s, were being sued, or threatened with being sued, over Copyright issues. A field auditor had to join IHelp, and sign a contract saying that they recognised RTC as the owners of the Tech, and giving RTC reps the right to enter your establishment at any time to inspect your work. They charged for this at some ridiculous rate. In exchange for this, IHelp would send you the most recent HCOBs.
By the 90s I expect that it had become clear that an Auditor could not make any kind of living by auditing. Neither in the Org, nor in the Field, without grovelling and begging for permission from RTC.
There were a scant few field auditors who would submit to the RTC. Joe Hochman did. He and his wife are still practicing in LA. I think Trey did for awhile. Not sure bout that. But I think most 8s had the integrity to tell RTC to go fish.

I first met Trey just after he got declared. He is now busier than ever
and audits L's. Did L-11 with him. He has a very long waiting list and
usually does 40 wdah a week.

[phenomanon]

I think a big part of it was the money (I know some SO members had their noses out of joint over the idea, regardless of whether it actually got paid). Part of it was the embarrassment that AOLA had to rely on field auditors to audit public.

I mean, how can you say in your promo that the org delivers much better tech than field auditors, when a senior org is using field auditors for delivery?

A friend knew a Cl 8 field auditor in the Clearwater area, to whom he would go to for auditing since it was less stressful than walking into an org.

Some years ago, that auditor stopped his practice in the face of increasing harassment. One example was being told that a flub (or at least what an org CS considered a flub) now meant he would have to retrain. All the way back to Cl 8.

The auditor correctly interpreted this as a demand he cease and desist from field auditing. He no longer audits, although I think he's still officially in Scientology. He may just be in because he works at a Scn-owned company.

So, Howard Schube came to me and asked me to show him how to fly ruds at OT3. He had been one selected to replace Cl 8s in the HGC.
I had done TRs with Howard while we were on FEBC on the Apollo.
Howard had NO tech training. He was an'admin person'.
The idea of Howard Schube auditing OTs in the AO HGC was a pitiful situation. Like you could "show" someone how to fly OT3 rudiments. Oy!
I don't know how it worked out for Schube, or for the poor saps he 'audited. I didn't stick around for long after that.