BILL FRANKS DRAWS WRATH - angry Scientologists

[Veda]

Press "control" and "f" and do a find on Bill Franks to see some very angry Scientologists. Our very own Sneakster demanded a retraction from a confused Alex Costillo, and Costillo did so, posting in big letters "CONTAMINATING LIES FROM BILL FRANKS."

Sneakster was very upset over the things Franks said about L. Ron Hubbard setting up Mary Sue.

'The virus that killed Scientology Inc.' by Marty Rathbun:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-virus-that-killed-scientology-inc

And, no, as of this writing, Marty has not said what that virus is, yet.

:eyeroll:

What Bill Franks is saying, and what many others, including David Mayo, were saying years earlier, is that "what's wrong with Scientology" originated with L. Ron Hubbard, and has been wrong for a very long time - long before Miscavige.

This, the outside the CofS Scientologists don't want to hear, especially in the face of the release of Marty's book explaining that "what's wrong" began with Miscavige.

[Gadfly]

What Bill Franks is saying, and what many others, including David Mayo, were saying years earlier, is that "what's wrong with Scientology" originated with L. Ron Hubbard, and has been wrong for a very long time - long before Miscavige.


I really don't get it, how some people refuse to just face what is right there in front of their faces.

I simply opened my eyes and looked. I did what LRH encouraged, and had it be true for me what I myself observed. It was pretty simple. Of course, I have never really liked groups in general, and haven't had much of any interest in being part of one. I suppose I am basically "anti-social". :ohmy:

First, there is LRH policy. Second, various people "apply" this LRH policy. Third, every bit of nastiness, lies, deception, abuse, and manipulation that follows stem directly from the previous two points.

It is so simple to see - unless of course one prefers to see some IDEA or imaginary fiction instead of reality. And, of course, some people ONLY USE the fiction to manipulate and control others.

It is funny to watch really, how these Scientology true-believers struggle to maintain their delusions. How they deny and refuse to look at any FACT that will disrupt thier fantasies about Hubbard and Scientology.

What they do and how they do it is explained in Hoffer's The True Believer, and in many other books about mind control, advertising, behavioral modification and mass movements.

Yeah, sure, this refusing to see what is going on right in front of your face exists in many people and groups, BUT it has been amazingly institutionalized into Hubbard's subject and practices.

[HelluvaHoax!]

One of Sneakster's posts on MartyWorld.



Mike Hobson | June 14, 2012 at 8:07 pm | Reply
Alex Castillo: In that interview, Bill Franks bluntly accused (starting at 13:55-14:20) Ron Hubbard of ordering Franks and Miscavige to set up a secretly recorded interview with his wife Mary Sue Hubbard to get her to incriminate herself on tapes that were then to be covertly forwarded to government agencies so that she would be imprisoned.

Franks further claims (from 14:20-15:45) that he had access to G.O. Files (how is that possible when he was never G.O. and the G.O. was completely autonomous at that time ?) wherein he saw documents detailing plots to murder three (3) U.K. Ministers of Parliament. He further claims that at least one of these alleged murders was actually carried out! And to take it totally over-the-top he then states (at 15:56) that “basically everything came from Hubbard”, meaning (if we are to believe Bill Franks) that Ron Hubbard ordered these MPs murdered!!!

Now, Mr. Alex Castillo, kindly explain how it happens that *you* have direct, personal knowledge that the above accusations represent true facts and that at least one U.K. Minister of Parliament was murdered at Ron Hubbard’s orders ? And how is it that you have failed to help the U.K. law enforcement bring these murders to justice, since you have firsthand knowledge of *murder*, which has no Statute of Limitations anywhere in the United States, United Kingdom or European Union ?

If I were you, I would promptly retract your blanket claim that Bill Franks’ radio interview represents truth as you remember it; because, if it does, that makes *you* complicit in *murder*.


It's actually kind of sad to see an adult so desperate to cling onto fairy tales.

Scientology makes the able more able pathetic.

[Gadfly]

Mike Hobson | June 14, 2012 at 8:07 pm | Reply

Alex Castillo: In that interview, Bill Franks bluntly accused (starting at 13:55-14:20) Ron Hubbard of ordering Franks and Miscavige to set up a secretly recorded interview with his wife Mary Sue Hubbard to get her to incriminate herself on tapes that were then to be covertly forwarded to government agencies so that she would be imprisoned.

Franks further claims (from 14:20-15:45) that he had access to G.O. Files (how is that possible when he was never G.O. and the G.O. was completely autonomous at that time ?) wherein he saw documents detailing plots to murder three (3) U.K. Ministers of Parliament. He further claims that at least one of these alleged murders was actually carried out! And to take it totally over-the-top he then states (at 15:56) that “basically everything came from Hubbard”, meaning (if we are to believe Bill Franks) that Ron Hubbard ordered these MPs murdered!!!

Now, Mr. Alex Castillo, kindly explain how it happens that *you* have direct, personal knowledge that the above accusations represent true facts and that at least one U.K. Minister of Parliament was murdered at Ron Hubbard’s orders ? And how is it that you have failed to help the U.K. law enforcement bring these murders to justice, since you have firsthand knowledge of *murder*, which has no Statute of Limitations anywhere in the United States, United Kingdom or European Union ?

If I were you, I would promptly retract your blanket claim that Bill Franks’ radio interview represents truth as you remember it; because, if it does, that makes *you* complicit in *murder*.

I knew Castillo at FOLO EUS in the late 1970s when he was sent to take over the CO FLEUS post for awhile. He was an idiot then.

::from Mick - I have removed the reference to counseling data

I am curious though if anybody else has heard such a thing. Yes? No? He does often behave in an excessive "righteous indignant" manner, and those types of people can at times harbor the same tendencies and crimes that they make so much noise about in OTHERS! :yes:

[HelluvaHoax!]

I really don't get it, how some people refuse to just face what is right there in front of their faces.

I simply opened my eyes and looked. I did what LRH encouraged, and had it be true for me what I myself observed. It was pretty simple. Of course, I have never really liked groups in general, and haven't had much of any interest in being part of one. I suppose I am basically "anti-social". :ohmy:

First, there is LRH policy. Second, various people "apply" this LRH policy. Third, every bit of nastiness, lies, deception, abuse, and manipulation that follows stem directly from the previous two points.

It is so simple to see - unless of course one prefers to see some IDEA or imaginary fiction instead of reality. And, of course, some people ONLY USE the fiction to manipulate and control others.

It is funny to watch really, how these Scientology true-believers struggle to maintain their delusions. How they deny and refuse to look at any FACT that will disrupt thier fantasies about Hubbard and Scientology.

What they do and how they do it is explained in Hoffer's The True Believer, and in many other books about mind control, advertising, behavioral modification and mass movements.


Contrary to common sense, True Believers often actually become more adamant & ardent about their deluded faith when their cult is exposed to be a fraud.

There is a wonderful book on the subject, When Prophecy Fails (http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dawson-When-Prophecy-Fails-and-Faith-Persists.pdf).

There is an even more profoundly devastating study of the subject on Marty's Indie Blog.

[Gadfly]

Contrary to common sense, True Believers often actually become more adamant & ardent about their deluded faith when their cult is exposed to be a fraud.

There is a wonderful book on the subject, When Prophecy Fails (http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dawson-When-Prophecy-Fails-and-Faith-Persists.pdf).

There is an even more profoundly devastating study of the subject on Marty's Indie Blog.

:hysterical:

[Veda]

Rather than add a link to the initial post, and it's taking a while for me to get the link to activate so I can then post the link, I'll just repost some old content which includes the link. This will also provide some background to any MartyWorld people, or others, who might wander over. :)

The following is an excerpt from 'Messiah or Madman?', and provides some background:

Around 1980, Bill Franks was appointed by Hubbard as "Executive Director," but what exactly did that mean?

Bent Corydon was a friend of Bill Franks. The following is an excerpt from the chapter, 'A Reform Movement is Derailed' in 'Messiah or Madman?':

"When... Mary Sue's defense was seen as futile, and the legal heat was being directed increasingly at Hubbard himself, Hubbard ordered a 'palace coup' by his 'kids' (his youthful messengers)...

"David Miscavige 'handled' Mary Sue Hubbard, and Bill Franks was assigned to 'handle' the head of the Guardian's Office, Jane Kember.

"The entire old G.O. was headed for jail. Hubbard ordered his messengers to set up a 'Watchdog Committee'.

"In early 1981 Hubbard also created a new post of Executive Director International. This was announced to be a resumption of the post 'vacated by L. Ron Hubbard in 1966'. The new appointment to Executive Director was Bill Franks...

"It was presented to Franks that he would be assuming all of Hubbard's administrative functions. However, Bill told me years later, after leaving the Church, that he had since concluded that Hubbard set him up in order to help him rid himself of Jane Kember...

"What was actually happening at the time of the mission holders' meeting was that Bill had been 'put in charge' as an additional facade for Hubbard. Bill was supposed to have 'instinctively' understood that he was merely to be window dressing. Hubbard was still in control while operating through new additional facades, consisting of the mysterious WDC and Franks. These fronts were designed to protect Hubbard from criminal prosecution that had already consumed his previous facade, consisting of his wife and her G.O. clique.

"Hubbard had not counted on Bill Franks and the mission holders' backlash reaction against what he [Bill Franks] considered 'G.O. type abuses'.

"Franks naively believed that Hubbard had genuinely stepped down, leaving him in the top spot. Bill's reform efforts were constantly getting derailed by these 'kids' however (secretly implementing Hubbard's intent), so he feared that they would go on to commit crimes similar to the G.O bunch..."

So the mission holders were rebelling, but had no idea that they were rebelling against Hubbard, but Hubbard knew, and reacted fiercely.


__________

Here's a link to the radio program (At first, may take a while to activate.)

http://theedgewithtomsmith.com/a/TheEdgeBFranks1.mp3

I just listened to it, and the part about the murder of a MP is only a brief mention, and is vague. It's unknown whether it was a murder disguised as an accident - which would be more Scientological than an upfront guns-blasting homicide.

Be that as it may, this interview is packed with interesting information regarding a variety of areas, and Bill Franks comes across as extremely credible.

Franks mentions that it was L. Ron Hubbard who ran Scientology's Fair Game operations. Briefly discussing Paulette Cooper: "Basically, everything came from Hubbard. He actually ran that day to day."

And as for Hubbard throwing his wife under the bus, which has been known for some time, Bill Franks adds some fascinating detail:

"Hubbard had me and Miscavige and a few others interview Mary Sue... and... we had a van outside that was taping all this. And, basically, it was to get as much incriminating - to get her to incriminate herself as much as possible, and this would be, through a circumlocutious manner, fed to the government."

Tom Smith/Interviewer: "And this was Hubbard's idea?"

Bill Franks: "This was from L. Ron Hubbard to set up his wife. Right."


__________

The following is another excerpt from 'Messiah or Madman?' - published 25 years ago:

From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'

http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637577?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt :

"Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

"The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

"And of course the next person thinks he or she is immune...

"The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

"And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he 'raped' his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

"And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior', surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

"And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. 'My God! I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place...

"But the thing that's amazing, and to me terrifying, is the characteristic of the mind, my mind, your mind, and apparently many other people's minds, where I could buy this horseshit, where I could participate in it."

There are other items from David Mayo, Jesse Prince, and others, that could be included, but this will suffice, for now, for this hastily written thread.

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

One of the more astonishing things about Indie Scientologists is this.

When CoS (Miscavige, Tommy Davis, et al) get up and blatantly lie to the media or to CoS Scientololgists everyone (including Indies) is outraged at the obvious lying.

But when people (trying to protect Scientology or Hubbard) blatantly lie, Indies not only don't give a damn, they actually have wins on it.

[Veda]

I knew Castillo at FOLO EUS in the late 1970s when he was sent to take over the CO FLEUS post for awhile.

-snip-



I don't want this to be an attack on Costillo, especially on hearsay from a PC folder. My God. Do me a favor, and delete the PC folder stuff, OK?

[I told you I was trouble]

Why would anyone not believe that tubs had thrown Mary Sue (and Jane
Kember and the other 9 GOWW staff) under a bus?

His interest in Mary Sue both while she was in gaol and then for the rest of her life was apparently not that of a loving (and grateful husband) ... she was immediately dumped, she was a down-stat because she got caught while carrying out his 007 wannabe infiltration orders!

The man was a complete bastard.

[Smilla]

Press "control" and "f" and do a find on Bill Franks to see some very angry Scientologists. Our very own Sneakster demanded a retraction from a confused Alex Costillo, and Costillo did so, posting in big letters "CONTAMINATING LIES FROM BILL FRANKS."

Sneakster was very upset over the things Franks said about L. Ron Hubbard setting up Mary Sue.

'The virus that killed Scientology Inc.' by Marty Rathbun:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-virus-that-killed-scientology-inc

And, no, as of this writing, Marty has not said what that virus is, yet.

:eyeroll:

What Bill Franks is saying, and what many others, including David Mayo, were saying years earlier, is that "what's wrong with Scientology" originated with L. Ron Hubbard, and has been wrong for a very long time - long before Miscavige.

This, the outside the CofS Scientologists don't want to hear, especially in the face of the release of Marty's book explaining that "what's wrong" began with Miscavige.

That's the same Michael Hobson who declared Pat Broeker to be an SP, assigned him a Condition of Treason, and then ran away from this very same message board.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?25987-Shunning-and-vilification-alive-and-well-in-the-Indie-Field.

[Gadfly]

I don't want this to be an attack on Costillo, especially on hearsay from a PC folder. My God. Do me a favor, and delete the PC folder stuff, OK?

Hey, that is why I clearly said:

"Interestingly, and this is ONLY hearsay . . . . I have no idea, and this is ONLY a claim of somebody else."

This is a FACT - that I HEARD this. It is a fact that I was told this by an auditor at FOLO EUS. It is also a fact that, as I said, I have NO IDEA whether it was "true".

One doesn't need that bit of data to "attack Castillo", as he says too many stupid things all on his own in PT to warrant an "attack". :biggrin:

I did go back to edit the post, but my 30 minutes were up. What is one to do? But also, I was going to be a smart-ass, and redact the appropriate lines in YELLOW blocked background, so that the text could still be read!

[Smilla]

...

One of the more astonishing things about Indie Scientologists is this.

When CoS (Miscavige, Tommy Davis, et al) get up and blatantly lie to the media or to CoS Scientololgists everyone (including Indies) is outraged at the obvious lying.

But when people (trying to protect Scientology or Hubbard) blatantly lie, Indies not only don't give a damn, they actually have wins on it.

Duckspeak

"Duckspeak is a Newspeak term meaning literally to quack like a duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck) or to speak without thinking. Duckspeak can be either good or "ungood" (bad), depending on who is speaking, and whether what they are saying is in following with the ideals of Big Brother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_%28Nineteen_Eighty-Four%29). To speak rubbish and lies may be ungood, but to speak rubbish and lies for the good of "The Party" may be good. In the appendix to 1984, Orwell explains:
“ Ultimately it was hoped to make articulate speech issue from the larynx without involving the higher brain centres at all. This aim was frankly admitted in the Newspeak word duckspeak […]. Like various words in the B vocabulary, duckspeak was ambivalent in meaning. Provided that the opinions which were quacked out were orthodox ones, it implied nothing but praise, and when the Times referred to one of the orators of the Party as a doubleplusgood duckspeaker it was paying a warm and valued compliment. ”
—Orwell, 1984
An example of a skillful duckspeaker in action is provided in the beginning of chapter 9, in which an Inner Party speaker is haranguing the crowd about the crimes of Eurasia when a note is passed into his hand; he does not stop speaking for a moment, or change his voice or manner, but (according to the changed party line) he now condemns the crimes of Eastasia, which is Oceania's new enemy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Newspeak_words

[Veda]

Hey, that is why I clearly said:

"Interestingly, and this is ONLY hearsay . . . . I have no idea, and this is ONLY a claim of somebody else."

This is a FACT - that I HEARD this. It is a fact that I was told this by an auditor at FOLO EUS. It is also a fact that, as I said, I have NO IDEA whether it was "true".

One doesn't need that bit of data to "attack Castillo", as he says too many stupid things all on his own in PT to warrant an "attack". :biggrin:

It's still not OK, and it diminishes the message of this thread, IMO.

I probably shouldn't even have mentioned Costillo, and should have just described him as a poster at Marty's blog. He's just someone caught in the middle.

Sneakster, I had to mention, if only briefly, since his demand of a retraction was remarkable, and it illustrated the mood of the MartyWorld people.

[Gadfly]

It's still not OK, and it diminishes the message of this thread, IMO.

I probably shouldn't even have mentioned Costillo. He's just someone caught in the middle.

Hey, as we all know, all sorts of stuff gets tossed into threads (that some feel shouldn't be there). Tough noogies. It happens (pretty much always). :confused2:

But also, I have already ADDED content that DOES contribute to the point that you made, and that others have also added to in a similar way.

Veda, I know you like to "control" the direction your threads take, but that is impossible on what is basically a free-for-all message board. But, you are free to keep trying. :confused2:

If I were you I would bask in the knowledge that there ARE many more who will probably ADD to it, support what you say, at least in some related way, than who will "detract" from the message. That will happen because the greater majority here on ESMB are NOT gun-toting rabid supporters of Hubbard and the "Church" of Scientology, and have woken up to at least some major degree.

Hey, it could be worse. I could interject a lengthy discussion on the nature of "understanding". Don't worry, I won't. :biggrin:

[HelluvaHoax!]

Why would anyone not believe that tubs had thrown Mary Sue (and Jane
Kember and the other 9 GOWW staff) under a bus?

His interest in Mary Sue both while she was in gaol and then for the rest of her life was apparently not that of a loving (and grateful husband) ... she was immediately dumped, she was a down-stat because she got caught while carrying out his 007 wannabe infiltration orders!

The man was a complete bastard.


An ode humbly gifted to Indiekind by Marty Rathbun.





An Ode to L Ron Hubbard


You said your legacy would be the tech
but the dictator said otherwise
and the church began its demise
and hurt came to those who would object

You said there was no hidden data line
but the dictator said he knew better
and burned all of your policy letters
and the church went into long term decline

You said the tech was timeless and free
but the dictator wanted power and cash
and made your truth a confusing hash
and status and greed replaced the state of OT

You acknowledged the loyalty of your gracious wife
but the dictator used her as a stepping stone
and she died forgotten, friendless and alone
and thus he erased your dear Manuela from your life

You raised three fine children and one who died too soon
but the dictator wanted them forgotten too
and your progeny turned from sunshine to blue
and the many who loved you wept under a sorrowful moon

You had faith that your friends would make it come out right
but the dictator mis-used your treasure to enervate them
and black dianetics, reverse scientology internecine mayhem
and with violence did he destroy their willingness to fight

You said only truth could penetrate thick armor plate
and though the dictator protested this fact
it was your ace in the hole that has our back
and everyday now more are working to reverse your fate

And alas, it may take time and a perilous struggle
but we assure you it is too late to reverse our tide
you’ve got friends to the end of time on your side
and come hell or high water we’ll emerge from this jungle

Because we know you were right that the truth shall set us free
and that is one thing no dictator will ever take away
it will be your real friends standing at the end of day
humanity freed, the only proper acknowledgment of thee




This entire ode is one of the most and perniciously destructive pieces of lying propaganda that any Scientologist has ever devised to hide the true nature of Hubbard and Scientology.

Indies who read this without feeling a horrific urge to cringe have lost both their common sense and their humanity.

[Veda]

-snip-

But also, I have already ADDED content that DOES contribute to the point that you made, and that others have also added to in a similar way.

-snip-



Alright.

[Smilla]

An ode humbly gifted to Indiekind by Marty Rathbun.





An Ode to L Ron Hubbard


You said your legacy would be the tech
but the dictator said otherwise
and the church began its demise
and hurt came to those who would object

You said there was no hidden data line
but the dictator said he knew better
and burned all of your policy letters
and the church went into long term decline

You said the tech was timeless and free
but the dictator wanted power and cash
and made your truth a confusing hash
and status and greed replaced the state of OT

You acknowledged the loyalty of your gracious wife
but the dictator used her as a stepping stone
and she died forgotten, friendless and alone
and thus he erased your dear Manuela from your life

You raised three fine children and one who died too soon
but the dictator wanted them forgotten too
and your progeny turned from sunshine to blue
and the many who loved you wept under a sorrowful moon

You had faith that your friends would make it come out right
but the dictator mis-used your treasure to enervate them
and black dianetics, reverse scientology internecine mayhem
and with violence did he destroy their willingness to fight

You said only truth could penetrate thick armor plate
and though the dictator protested this fact
it was your ace in the hole that has our back
and everyday now more are working to reverse your fate

And alas, it may take time and a perilous struggle
but we assure you it is too late to reverse our tide
you’ve got friends to the end of time on your side
and come hell or high water we’ll emerge from this jungle

Because we know you were right that the truth shall set us free
and that is one thing no dictator will ever take away
it will be your real friends standing at the end of day
humanity freed, the only proper acknowledgment of thee




This entire ode is one of the most and perniciously destructive pieces of lying propaganda that any Scientologist has ever devised to hide the true nature of Hubbard and Scientology.

Indies who read this without feeling a horrific urge to cringe have lost both their common sense and their humanity.

That might well be the worst poem ever written, but there is another contender - William McGonagall, whose poetic style is so similar to Marty's that I'm thinking reincarnation. Here is a sample:

The poem is by far the most famous ever written by McGonagall, and is still widely quoted. It begins:

"Beautiful railway bridge of the silv'ry Tay
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last sabbath day of 1879
Which shall be remembered for a very long time."

And it ends:

"Oh! Ill-fated bridge of the silv'ry Tay
I now must conclude my lay
By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay
That your central girders would not have given way
At least many sensible men do say
Had they been supported on each side with buttresses
At least many sensible men confesses
For the stronger we our houses build
The less chance we have of being killed"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tay_Bridge_Disaster

[Gadfly]

An ode humbly gifted to Indiekind by Marty Rathbun.

An Ode to L Ron Hubbard

You said your legacy would be the tech
but the dictator said otherwise
and the church began its demise
and hurt came to those who would object

You said there was no hidden data line
but the dictator said he knew better
and burned all of your policy letters
and the church went into long term decline

You said the tech was timeless and free
but the dictator wanted power and cash
and made your truth a confusing hash
and status and greed replaced the state of OT

You acknowledged the loyalty of your gracious wife . . . .

I have started to read this "essay" in the past, but I only can get through a few paragraphs before I start wretching and laughing uncontrollably.

It is THEATRE! And, very BAD theatre at that.

:puke2:

Marty, MARTY, you raving imbecile, HUBBARD was the original DICTATOR.

Hubbard is the model that Miscavige patterns himself after, and DM does a pretty good job of THAT. That explains why he is just a dick.

Hurt has ALWAYS come to those who would object.

There has ALWAYS been a hidden data line.

The Scientology organization, based on Hubbard's design, has ALWAYS wanted power and cash.

Status and greed have ALWAYS been paramount with Hubbard and his followers.

I could go on with the rest of the essay, but I haven't read it . . . .

[Lulu Belle]

One of Sneakster's posts on MartyWorld.





It's actually kind of sad to see an adult so desperate to cling onto fairy tales.

Scientology makes the able more able pathetic.


oh lord. I like Mike and it's very frustrating to see him acting like such a douchewaffle.

The thing about what files Franks did and didn't have access to...I remember when I came into Scientology in the early 80s, the GO by that time had been taken over by the Sea Org. I think they existed as the GO under the SO before they were disbanded in 1983 or so. Then they were "Special Unit" for a little while before OSA was formed. Anyone who was around at that time: Does this sound right to you? I joined the SO in 1982 and at that time the GO was definitely not autonomous.

The other thing...I know I read all kinds of "confidential" advices and dispatches and other such things when I was in, and I was a peon. You could get your hands on stuff if you really wanted to. Just because someone is not supposed to have access to something doesn't mean they won't come across it. I was married at one time to someone in Estates and it was amazing the amount of shit he read and saw going through those Exec rooms and such.

You gotta remember, the time period Franks is taking about is probably late 70s early 80s. People didn't have personal computers then; everything was on paper. Really easy for stuff to wind up in the wrong hands.

[Veda]

Included are a few more items, for the benefit of any curious lurkers:

Nancy Many talks about Hubbard and Paulette Cooper, starting at 1:30. "[L. Ron] Hubbard hated Paulette Cooper. He hated her and he wanted her destroyed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY76WHmRlYA&feature=player_embedded

From the Affidavit of Tanja Burden http://www.lisamcpherson.org/burden.htm:

"At the Fort Harrison I remained LRH's personal messenger. I observed LRH control the operation of Scientology in various 'Orgs' worldwide from the Fort Harrison. I coded and decoded messages to and directly from Hubbard. Hubbard used approximately 15 codes at this time to conceal his operations, programs, and policies, which he disseminated worldwide. I personally delivered messages concerning Operation Snow White, Operation Freak Out, and other Scientology secret and illegal operations. I also filed these in Hubbard's personal filing cabinet..."

Schwimmel Puckel, in a 2011 ESMB post, had these observations:

"I quite sure that Hubbard directed this personally... But I can't prove it. But it was/is well known that even as Mary Sue and Jane Kember held those posts they did, nothing was done without Ron overlooking, approving and/or ordering it.

"I never met the man in person. I was in the Guardian's Office Europe 1979 to mid '81. Well, we had telexes clattering in from 'Ron' all the time. He was very much into anything the GO did, was my impression.. And we carefully cut the corner that said 'Ron' off of the slips before archiving. No document were to expose Ron as a leader or executive authority of anything anywhere."


From Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo, Class XII, from August 1986.

This excerpt concerns events from the late 1960s:

"He [Hubbard] could be capable of incredible cruelty. On the ship there was an old man on the Royal Scotman who he made push a peanut round the decks with his nose. He had to get down on his hands and knees, he had to go round the deck, quite a long distance in a race with one or two others also in trouble. The first one back got let off and the last one got a double penalty.

"It was really tough on this old guy, Charlie Reisdorf. The surface of the deck was very rough wood, prone to splinter, so after pushing peanuts with their noses, they all had raw, bleeding noses, leaving a trail of blood behind them. I not only saw it but the entire crew of the ship was mustered - a mandatory attendance - we were required to watch this punishment, to make an example of it for the rest of us. Reisdorf was in his late 50s probably. His two daughters were messengers, they were 11 or 12 at time and his wife was there also.

"It was hard to say which was worse to watch: this old guy with a bleeding nose or his wife and kids sobbing and crying at being forced to watch this. Hubbard was standing there calling the shots, yelling, 'Faster, Faster!'. It was indignity, degradation and breaking a person's will, and making people watch. It was disgusting...

"They used to have people locked in the chain locker, including small children. It was very dangerous because if the anchor started to slip and started running out, it would probably turn a body into a pulp in no time at all...

"He [LRH] had a birthday party on March 13, 1968; there was a woman who he ordered locked in the chain locker. During the party he had brought her out. She was filthy, covered with dirt and rust, and had not been allowed to wash or change clothes - she had been in there for a week... he brought her out to the party. He said he was giving her a reprieve and permitting her to come to the party, as if that was a nice gesture. She wasn't allowed to change. She was brought to the party and had to stay, and later was returned [to the chain locker]... it was flaunting her degradation...

"Why did people stand by?...

"From time to time, Hubbard would cancel such activities like the chain locker, and blame it on someone else... He would start such pronouncements with, 'It has just come to my attention...'

"The length of time for children would vary, but no one was less than a day...

"Reisdorf [peanut pushing] affair - if someone tried to do something, it would have made it worse. Hubbard said that maritime law prevailed... He said that under maritime law, he had total power over everyone on the vessel..."

And one brief excerpt concerning events from the late 1970s:

"He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."


And from an article on 'Clear' by David Mayo from the early 1990s:

It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."


And this from Alan Walter, from a 2007 ESMB post:

"...there was one stuck picture that would not go away. Behind it was at that time an unthinkable thought.

"Ron had Julia Salmon thrown overboard... Julia was... terribly overweight, and could not swim.

"The people who threw her overboard struggled to get her over the side; she was terrified; she kept crying out "I cannot swim!" On her way down she hit the side of the ship - I could hear her screams - it was obvious she was injured and drowning.

"The people on the deck all stood around too afraid to do anything. Fearing to originate any action less the become the target of LRHs displeasure.

"I ran and jumped over the side and rescued her. I then pulled her over to the ladder that led up to the ground level of the dock........it was about 20 feet straight up. She could not climb the steps. I had my shoulders under her butt pushing her up..... no one still had come to help.......but at the top of that ladder stood LRH filming us.....such evil.......

"Anyway after an immense struggle with Julia's help I was able to push her up to the top of the ladder....finally some help arrived.

"Over the years the unthinkable thought pushed forward more and more....it was 'that I observe that LRH was demonic at that time'. I did not want to know that, did not want to believe that.......that was too incredible to be believed - even for me - I did the usual make nothing of myself....'you're seeing things' 'what do you know' 'you've got overts' - much easier to blame self than confront what is..."


And that's just a quickly assembled sampling.

"What's wrong with Scientology" started long before Miscavige.

[Gadfly]

Does anyone remember the telex codes? There were sig lines such as "queen" and "duchess" for, as I recall for Mary Sue and Jane Kember.

The funniest one was "L=R" for Hubbard, where "Love = Ron". Right!

Does anyone have a list of the various code names and WHO was who?

I do remember the Telex Op at Folo EUS telling me, somewhat secretively (because he was sworn not to ever say anything) about such things. Being on executive lines I would occassionally get a misrouted telex with the codes still intact (yes they were supposed to be removed). I remember one Telex Op working out of Treason for failing to remove a code before distributing the telexes.

This was in 1978-79, so the HEAT was ON!

Even though I was a senior executive at Folo, I was NOT allowed to enter the telex room. Only the CO CMO FOLO EUS or some INT missionaire could do that.

This was about the time that the "LRH Advices" were sent to all orgs, and the various management channels had to get them complied with. It was so funny. They were explained to be "only advices", and that Ron in his caring and great beneficence provided these to orgs and management as a "gift". Of course, he WAS NOT "on management lines", and wasn't directing anything (this was told to EVERYBODY at every level, including all staff).

When I was a Flag Rep in Toronto, a whole new staff pay system came down the lines, HCOPLs, green-on-white, that were signed by the "Boards of Directors of the Churches of Scientology". I refused to implement them. I had WDC missionaires screaming at me. I was put on the phone to Alan Buchanan (who was the Msn Ops), and my senior at Flag the FFR (Flag Flag Rep), and received more screaming. Buchanan told me that "it really was written by LRH, but due to legal reasons we have to make it look like he was off the lines".

My response was basically "fuck you". I said that any group of idiots could write policies and pretend them to be written by Ron. He didn't like that. I was pushing "what is in writing is true", per the "seniority of orders" issue. It was very simple, and I wasn't going to allow it to get complicated. I was pulled to FOLO EUS, and ordered to get a Comm Ev. I spent 6 or 7 weeks there, forcibly separated from my wife, temporarily holding the Data Chief post while the guy was on a mission. I did it well, and knowing the LRH Comm well, requested that the whole thing be cancelled for "slow justice". It was, and I went back to Toronto.

When I got there it was all as if it never happened. Nobody spoke of it.

I experienced MANY nutty situations like that in the Sea Org, and I had little tolerance for such idiocy. To me THAT was how they ALWAYS functioned, and it didn't take long for me to route out.

[Dulloldfart]

The thing about what files Franks did and didn't have access to...I remember when I came into Scientology in the early 80s, the GO by that time had been taken over by the Sea Org. I think they existed as the GO under the SO before they were disbanded in 1983 or so. Then they were "Special Unit" for a little while before OSA was formed. Anyone who was around at that time: Does this sound right to you? I joined the SO in 1982 and at that time the GO was definitely not autonomous.

I was at SH from 1972 to 1985. I remember the GO being unmocked, and the ex-GOWW execs being put through the wringer. It seemed to me that there was no-one on post doing GO-type functions for a year or so in the early 80s. OSA didn't exist at SH (hadn't heard of it), and nor apparently did the GO. I wondered who was doing the legal stuff.

Paul

[HelluvaHoax!]

Nancy Many talks about Hubbard and Paulette Cooper, starting at 1:30.


"[L. Ron] Hubbard hated Paulette Cooper.
He hated her and he wanted her destroyed."


The Heights of Hubbard Hypocrisy.

Hubbard's Law of Commotion demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt.

While he lectures others on "Greatness" he is plotting felonious vengeance against Paulette Cooper and conspiring to have her imprisoned, institutionalized or suicided.

And Scientologists and Indies march around self-righteously sermonizing about Ron's "love" tech.

Insanity!

[Smilla]

The Heights of Hubbard Hypocrisy.

Hubbard's Law of Commotion demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt.

While he lectures others on "Greatness" he is plotting felonious vengeance against Paulette Cooper and conspiring to have her imprisoned, institutionalized or suicided.

And Scientologists and Indies march around self-righteously sermonizing about Ron's "love" tech.

Insanity!

Yeah, it really is insane and very very criminal. The more it's exposed the better for everyone. Thanks Bill and thanks Nancy.

[Smurf]

That's the same Michael Hobson who declared Pat Broeker to be an SP, assigned him a Condition of Treason, and then ran away from this very same message board.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?25987-Shunning-and-vilification-alive-and-well-in-the-Indie-Field.


LOL. He was posting on the 'Spys R Us' Facebook page, blew a gasket and said he was leaving, but after several days, "was compelled to return" to respond to a thread where Catherine Ethier was questioning Aida Thomas' integrity.

That's typical, Mike. :duh:

[Mick Wenlock]

I was at SH from 1972 to 1985. I remember the GO being unmocked, and the ex-GOWW execs being put through the wringer. It seemed to me that there was no-one on post doing GO-type functions for a year or so in the early 80s. OSA didn't exist at SH (hadn't heard of it), and nor apparently did the GO. I wondered who was doing the legal stuff.

Paul

GOWW was nailed, IIRC in 1981 - the four man mission was Ron Lovely, Captain Bill, Norman Starkey and "wotsisname". They were picked as the missionaires mainly because of their size. That started the process, The GO was dismantled from the top down. Part of it was a grab for GOR and for the MOWW income.

Apparently "Mike" did not realize that the ED Int was over the GO and by the time Franks was ED it the GO was under the SO so - yeah its quite likely that he had a free run of a lot of GO documentation. By the middle of 1982 a lot of the GO had been ripped off for the finance office.

[Smilla]

LOL. He was posting on the 'Spys R Us' Facebook page, blew a gasket and said he was leaving, but after several days, "was compelled to return" to respond to a thread where Catherine Ethier was questioning Aida Thomas' integrity.

That's typical, Mike. :duh:

He is the living proof that Scientology is an RPG that got out of hand. Lol.

[Gadfly]

GOWW was nailed, IIRC in 1981 - the four man mission was Ron Lovely, Captain Bill, Norman Starkey and "wotsisname". They were picked as the missionaires mainly because of their size. That started the process, The GO was dismantled from the top down. Part of it was a grab for GOR and for the MOWW income.

Apparently "Mike" did not realize that the ED Int was over the GO and by the time Franks was ED it the GO was under the SO so - yeah its quite likely that he had a free run of a lot of GO documentation. By the middle of 1982 a lot of the GO had been ripped off for the finance office.

I ran into Ron Lovely somewhere in the late 1970s. What ever happened to him? As I recall, he was big, and he was fully trained in hand-to-hand combat and supposedly some other "martial arts" - maybe from the military? He was perfect for the Sea Org, because he just emanated that complete dedicated, do-what-I-say-or-else glare.

[HelluvaHoax!]

oh lord. I like Mike and it's very frustrating to see him acting like such a douchewaffle.


Maybe after a long enough time he will see what is right in front of him about Hubbard and the technology for making Operating Thetans.

It couldn't be more "present" than it is if anyone just Googles it.

Seems like Sneakster is stuck into some kind of role-playing game like Dungeons & Dragons DBs. It's Hubbard's game he is playing and that also makes him a "broken piece" according to Hubbard himself.

If Hubbard was here today, he would Fair Game Sneakster the squirrel and SP who publicly disavowed Hubbard's sacred church.

Too bad Sneakser doesn't realize that the guy he is protecting and promoting would do away with him, without sorrow.

As is typically the case, Scientology is slow, unknowing suicide.

Wake up soon Sneakster.

[Dulloldfart]

GOWW was nailed, IIRC in 1981 - the four man mission was Ron Lovely, <snip>


I ran into Ron Lovely somewhere in the late 1970s.

Is this a typo for Ron Loving? A nickname? Someone else?

Paul

[cakemaker]

Maybe after a long enough time he will see what is right in front of him about Hubbard and the technology for making Operating Thetans.

It couldn't be more "present" than it is if anyone just Googles it.

Seems like Sneakster is stuck into some kind of role-playing game like Dungeons & Dragons DBs. It's Hubbard's game he is playing and that also makes him a "broken piece" according to Hubbard himself.

If Hubbard was here today, he would Fair Game Sneakster the squirrel and SP who publicly disavowed Hubbard's sacred church.

Too bad Sneakser doesn't realize that the guy he is protecting and promoting would do away with him, without sorrow.

As is typically the case, Scientology is slow, unknowing suicide.

Wake up soon Sneakster.


Maybe if Sneakster spent some time with the documents at
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/selected.htm
he might realize that Source was the source of the shenanigans.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Maybe if Sneakster spent some time with the documents at
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/selected.htm
he might realize that Source was the source of the shenanigans.


Maybe.

But more likely that Sneakster could watch surveillance videotape of Hubbard giving orders to force Paulette Cooper to kill herself--and call it inconclusive because nobody proved that the video wasn't doctored with special effects that had Ron saying: "I want you to make it go right to kill her or have her kill herself."


There is genuine blindness in Scientologists that is not cured by putting the facts in front of them.

If that were so, Marty Rathbun would not have written an Ode to LRH where he lamented what OTHERS did to his poor beloved Mary Sue. Anyone in their right mind knows that Hubbard set up and framed his own wife to go to federal prison for his own crimes--regardless of whether Bill Frank's testimony is believed or not.

If anyone has any doubt about this, just ask any Scientologist or Indie Scientologist to introduce you to a real Clear or OT. See what they say.

[Smilla]

Maybe after a long enough time he will see what is right in front of him about Hubbard and the technology for making Operating Thetans.

It couldn't be more "present" than it is if anyone just Googles it.

Seems like Sneakster is stuck into some kind of role-playing game like Dungeons & Dragons DBs. It's Hubbard's game he is playing and that also makes him a "broken piece" according to Hubbard himself.

If Hubbard was here today, he would Fair Game Sneakster the squirrel and SP who publicly disavowed Hubbard's sacred church.

Too bad Sneakser doesn't realize that the guy he is protecting and promoting would do away with him, without sorrow.

As is typically the case, Scientology is slow, unknowing suicide.

Wake up soon Sneakster.

Ironically, he is very keen on RPG's and is a hardcore player of World of Warcraft. I kid you not. Guess the lines got a bit blurred. Lol.

[Mick Wenlock]

Is this a typo for Ron Loving? A nickname? Someone else?

Paul

typo and brain fart - ron loving of course..

[BunnySkull]

Ironically, he is very keen on RPG's and is a hardcore player of World of Warcraft. I kid you not. Guess the lines got a bit blurred. Lol.

Scientology, and esp the SO, really is just an absurd RPG. LRH invented a space opera spy RPG for adults - complete with uniforms and villains.

Mike always struck me as the stereotypical isolated, inept, bitter, arrogant computer nerd who is emotional maturity is stuck at about 12. I'm not the least bit surprised he's a gamer nerd, it's usually a companion of the social isolation which he suffers from. (His isolation is his own doing, but he will never be able to see that and instead blame everyone else.) Its too bad he got brainwashed by the CoS but he was ripe for the picking - guys like him desperately want to be accepted into a community but they also desperately need to be THE "authority" and always right which makes them terribly unpopular.

(Cults enforce companionship/ relationship via their workload and not wanting to give any one time alone (or to be a individual) this is actually a plus to people who wouldn't have a social circle any other way. I'm sure some of you in the SO met quite a few of these types.)

Most of Mike's brethren wouldnt get sucked into Scientology, but unfortunately once he got firmly on that track his ego was never going to allow him to admit it was a mistake or that the entirety of the "tech" is a sham. He will go to his grave desperately clinging to the LRH fantasy and the fantasy that he only lives his life by "the facts" (of his choosing and imagination). His delusions of being a "just the facts" kind of guy always cracked me up given his utter faith in LRH's totally unverifiable, ridiculous research and tech. You'd think a guy like him would have heard of the scientific method.

[Veda]

-snip-

If that were so, Marty Rathbun would not have written an Ode to LRH where he lamented what OTHERS did to his poor beloved Mary Sue. Anyone in their right mind knows that Hubbard set up and framed his own wife to go to federal prison for his own crimes--regardless of whether Bill Frank's testimony is believed or not.

-snip-



Hubbard seems to have planned ahead by placing his wife in the most perilous position in Scientology - in effect painting a target on her back - and carefully arranging it so that, if the fit ever hit the shan, she'd take the rap.

In the chapter 'Launching the Sea Org', in the book 'Bare-Faced Messiah', Virginia Downsborough was interviewed, by author Russell Miller, about her time in Las Palmas with L. Ron Hubbard (late 1966).

Downsborough was surprised by the large number of bottles of pills that were around Hubbard's bed where he lay moping. She did not report any physical injury. Here's an excerpt:

"He talked a lot about Sara Northrup and seemed to want to make sure that I knew that he had never married her. I didn't know why it was so important to him; I'd never met Sara and couldn't care less, but he wanted to persuade me that the marriage had never taken place. When he talked about his first wife, the picture he put out was of this poor wounded fellow coming home from the war and being abandoned by his wife and family because he would be a drain on them. He said he planned every move along the way with Mary Sue to avoid being victimized again."

[Megalomaniac]

Mike is the stereotypical isolated, inept, bitter, chubby, arrogant computer nerd who is emotional maturity is stuck at about 12.

I thought I was the immature computer nerd. :grouch:

FWIW, I've met Michael in real life. Was I the only one who found any redeeming characteristics in him?

Mac

[Gadfly]

Is this a typo for Ron Loving? A nickname? Someone else?

Paul

It is funny because I knew exactly who MW meant. And, when I was just out cutting the grass it "flashed" in my mind that the name was actually "Loving". I was going to come back to this thread and correct it, but you beat me too it! :thumbsup:

[Smilla]

Hubbard seems to have planned ahead by placing his wife in the most perilous position in Scientology - in effect painting a target on her back - and carefully arranging it so that, if the fit ever hit the shan, she'd take the rap.

In the chapter 'Launching the Sea Org', in the book 'Bare-Faced Messiah', Virginia Downsborough was interviewed, by author Russell Miller, about her time in Las Palmas with L. Ron Hubbard (late 1966).

Downsborough was surprised by the large number of bottles of pills that were around Hubbard's bed where he lay moping. She did not report any physical injury. Here's an excerpt:

"He talked a lot about Sara Northrup and seemed to want to make sure that I knew that he had never married her. I didn't know why it was so important to him; I'd never met Sara and couldn't care less, but he wanted to persuade me that the marriage had never taken place. When he talked about his first wife, the picture he put out was of this poor wounded fellow coming home from the war and being abandoned by his wife and family because he would be a drain on them. He said he planned every move along the way with Mary Sue to avoid being victimized again."

QED.

[Lulu Belle]

Apparently "Mike" did not realize that the ED Int was over the GO and by the time Franks was ED it the GO was under the SO so - yeah its quite likely that he had a free run of a lot of GO documentation. By the middle of 1982 a lot of the GO had been ripped off for the finance office.


Yes! Thank you so much. This is exactly what I recalled, but as I was brand new at the time I really didn't get what was going on.

I joined the SO in mid-1982. There were a few GO people around where I was. I didn't really get their command structure, but one thing was clear. They were definitely not in the "old GO" structure of being apart from the Mothership.

There were quite a number of GO people who were put in other units. If Gottabrain pops in she might be able to fill us in on some of this; she was one of them.

[Lulu Belle]

Maybe.

But more likely that Sneakster could watch surveillance videotape of Hubbard giving orders to force Paulette Cooper to kill herself--and call it inconclusive because nobody proved that the video wasn't doctored with special effects that had Ron saying: "I want you to make it go right to kill her or have her kill herself."

Yeah.

Pretty much.

Love the guy, but this is who he is.

[Veda]

Includes more background material for visiting lurkers...


Rathbun's 'Ode':




-snip-


An Ode to L Ron Hubbard


You said your legacy would be the tech
but the dictator said otherwise
and the church began its demise
and hurt came to those who would object

You said there was no hidden data line
but the dictator said he knew better
and burned all of your policy letters
and the church went into long term decline

You said the tech was timeless and free
but the dictator wanted power and cash
and made your truth a confusing hash
and status and greed replaced the state of OT

You acknowledged the loyalty of your gracious wife
but the dictator used her as a stepping stone
and she died forgotten, friendless and alone
and thus he erased your dear Manuela from your life

You raised three fine children and one who died too soon
but the dictator wanted them forgotten too
and your progeny turned from sunshine to blue
and the many who loved you wept under a sorrowful moon

You had faith that your friends would make it come out right
but the dictator mis-used your treasure to enervate them
and black dianetics, reverse scientology internecine mayhem
and with violence did he destroy their willingness to fight

You said only truth could penetrate thick armor plate
and though the dictator protested this fact
it was your ace in the hole that has our back
and everyday now more are working to reverse your fate

And alas, it may take time and a perilous struggle
but we assure you it is too late to reverse our tide
you’ve got friends to the end of time on your side
and come hell or high water we’ll emerge from this jungle

Because we know you were right that the truth shall set us free
and that is one thing no dictator will ever take away
it will be your real friends standing at the end of day
humanity freed, the only proper acknowledgment of thee




This entire ode is one of the most and perniciously destructive pieces of lying propaganda that any Scientologist has ever devised to hide the true nature of Hubbard and Scientology.

Indies who read this without feeling a horrific urge to cringe have lost both their common sense and their humanity.


Manuela is a reference to Manuela Saenz, Simon Bolivar's confidant and sweetheart.

It's amazing that Marty is still promoting the idea that it was Miscavige, and not Hubbard, who decided to "erase" Mary Sue Hubbard from L. Ron Hubbard's life.

Equally amazing that Rathbun likens Mary Sue to Manuela and, by implication, Hubbard to Simon Bolivar.

From the 1967 'Bolivar' PL of 12 February 1967, formally titled HCO Policy Letter 'Admin Know-How, the Responsibility of Leaders' -a.k.a. The Bolivar Policy Letter - on the topic of how a subordinate should relate to his "power":

"[The power asks] 'What are those dead bodies doing at the door'. And if you [the subordinate] are clever, you never let it be known HE [the power] killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. 'Well, boss about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me'. 'Well', he'll say if he really is a power, 'Why are you bothering me with it if it's done and you did it. Where's my blue ink?...

"...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power, or more ease, or a snarling defense of the power to the critic, or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark, or the glorious blaze of a whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise...

"...Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies of this kind... and if they are right and also manage their man [the power] and keep him from collapsing from overwork, bad temper or bad data, a kind of juggernaut builds up."


And some more inspirational words...

From 'Keeping Scientology Working', 7 February, 1965:

"We're not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn't something cute to do for lack of something better.

"The whole agonized future of this planet, every Man, Woman, and Child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology :unsure::ohmy::yes:

"This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance :spacecraft:. [See 'Implantology'] Remember, this is our first chance in all the endless trillions of years of the past . Don't muff it now because it seems unpleasant or unsocial to do Seven [Hammering out of existence incorrect technology], Eight..."

Just prior to the appearance of 'KSW', was published the piece 'My Philosophy', in which L. Ron Hubbard told Scientologists:

"Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to the hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost nonexistent future. My service record stated: 'This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies whatsoever', but also stated, 'permanently disabled physically'.

"And so there came a further blow. I was abandoned by family and friends :violin: as a supposedly hopeless cripple and probable burden on them for the rest of my days."

And, on 7 March 1965, exactly one month after the appearance of 'KSW' was published 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game Law':

"A Suppressive person or group becomes 'fair game'.

"By Fair Game is meant, without rights for self, possessions or position, and no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a Suppressive Person or group...

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] 1st degree murder, arson, disintegration of persons or belongings not [emphasis added] guilty of suppressive acts.

"[Suppressive Persons] place themselves beyond any consideration for their feelings :nazi:or well being...

"The homes, property, places, and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppress Scientology... are all beyond any protection."


"I can make Napoleon look like a punk." L. Ron Hubbard, from the 'Excalibur' letter of August 1938


And from 1969, from 'Discipline, SPs, and Admin':

"I am not interested in wog morality. If anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate or stop Scientologists or Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."

http://www.paulmorantz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/l-ron-hubbard-way1.jpg


The second attempt to frame Paulette Cooper (after the first 1972 attempt was almost successful) was in 1976, and was called Op Freak Out. Amongst the many actions to be done (such as once again obtaining her fingerprints on a blank sheet of paper) was to have it appear that Cooper was making threats against the Arab consulate. The reasoning was that she would be viewed as a likely suspect because she was Jewish.

From a 1980 program, concerning the 1970s:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Qa6WIedQ0&feature=related


Part 2, includes interview with and discussion of Paulette Cooper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOBGZyfw3o&feature=related


And to any visitors from MartyWorld looking in: Fair Game was never cancelled, only the public use of the name Fair Game was cancelled.

[Gadfly]

Veda, I just want to say once again that I for one really appreciate how you have pulled together these various references and histories to make these great points.

To some it may seem "repititous" at times, but I never tire of it, and one just never knows when some lurker will read something that finally DOES IT for him and her, and snaps them out of their Scientology trance. :thumbsup:

The stuff you post has the power to DO just that! :clap:

Keep it up (you will anyway). :biggrin:

[Petey C]

What Bill Franks is saying, and what many others, including David Mayo, were saying years earlier, is that "what's wrong with Scientology" originated with L. Ron Hubbard, and has been wrong for a very long time - long before Miscavige.

This, the outside the CofS Scientologists don't want to hear, especially in the face of the release of Marty's book explaining that "what's wrong" began with Miscavige.

I think Bill's got it right (and David Mayo too). What's wrong with Scientology (ie pretty much everything) comes directly from the mad brain of L Ron Hubbard and the moment I saw that, I was free.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Press "control" and "f" and do a find on Bill Franks to see some very angry Scientologists. Our very own Sneakster demanded a retraction from a confused Alex Costillo, and Costillo did so, posting in big letters "CONTAMINATING LIES FROM BILL FRANKS."

Sneakster was very upset over the things Franks said about L. Ron Hubbard setting up Mary Sue.

'The virus that killed Scientology Inc.' by Marty Rathbun:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-virus-that-killed-scientology-inc

And, no, as of this writing, Marty has not said what that virus is, yet.

:eyeroll:

What Bill Franks is saying, and what many others, including David Mayo, were saying years earlier, is that "what's wrong with Scientology" originated with L. Ron Hubbard, and has been wrong for a very long time - long before Miscavige.

This, the outside the CofS Scientologists don't want to hear, especially in the face of the release of Marty's book explaining that "what's wrong" began with Miscavige.

In my view it is not a matter of Bill Frank's data being true or half true or false.

Sometimes he may be right and sometimes he may be wrong.

The problem is that Bill Franks--the Bill Franks I knew, was an Eddie Haskell expanded.

So gee, Wally, why do you listen to that creep?

Seriously, for the people whose experiences with Bill Franks were similar to mine, when you repeat what he says you're not giving him credibility, you're losing credibility yourself.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Free to shine]

Yes! Thank you so much. This is exactly what I recalled, but as I was brand new at the time I really didn't get what was going on.

I joined the SO in mid-1982. There were a few GO people around where I was. I didn't really get their command structure, but one thing was clear. They were definitely not in the "old GO" structure of being apart from the Mothership.

There were quite a number of GO people who were put in other units. If Gottabrain pops in she might be able to fill us in on some of this; she was one of them.

I can only talk from an outer org view (Melbourne). I was in the GO until 1982, left just before the shit really hit the fan. I know that OSA was being set up and due to lack of personnel of course the same people did the same things. It got messy after I left, and very confusing, I know the Assistant Guardian (Elaine Allen) joined the SO but not much more. There was apparently a special rundown for ex GO staff which needed to be done before they could do more services, luckily I was in the naughty corner at that time and didn't do it.

I do know that the GO had great power, was a force unto itself and if you were in the good books there was a vast amount of info to be had. I am sure someone like Bill Franks would have had access.

[PirateAndBum]

In my view it is not a matter of Bill Frank's data being true or half true or false.

Sometimes he may be right and sometimes he may be wrong.

The problem is that Bill Franks--the Bill Franks I knew, was an Eddie Haskell expanded.

So gee, Wally, why do you listen to that creep?

Seriously, for the people whose experiences with Bill Franks were similar to mine, when you repeat what he says you're not giving him credibility, you're losing credibility yourself.

The Anabaptist Jacques

When I got in back in '75 Bill Franks was the ED of the org (FCDC). Being a total nube I never met him but in later years after he was gone, many that had experience with him as ED there expressed that he was quite a dictator - He had his EO carry a billy club and if I recall correctly Franks carried or had weapons on display in his office. He was not a nice fellow back then. That doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth about his experiences, but he wasn't a hero to very many people that I knew that knew him - he was FEARED. Note that he was a Marine before getting in. Hubbard appears to have a preference for ruthless militaristic people to run things. I can't tell you how many times "ruthless" and "for blood" were used in "motivating" staff & public.

[Veda]

In my view it is not a matter of Bill Frank's data being true or half true or false.

Sometimes he may be right and sometimes he may be wrong.

The problem is that Bill Franks--the Bill Franks I knew, was an Eddie Haskell expanded.

So gee, Wally, why do you listen to that creep?

Seriously, for the people whose experiences with Bill Franks were similar to mine, when you repeat what he says you're not giving him credibility, you're losing credibility yourself.

The Anabaptist Jacques

As I mentioned elsewhere, 98% of what he has said has been supported by credible evidence and by others' credible testimony.

When was the last time you communicated with him?

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

As I mentioned elsewhere, 98% of what he has said has been supported by credible evidence and by others' credible testimony.

When was the last time you communicated with him?

I'm not interessted in communicating with him, or Miscavige, or Ratburn, or any other Hubbard want-a-bees---in or out of Scientology.

The idea, you see, is to not expose any open wounds for those types to poor salt into, or let yourself be in a position to fall under their sway.

When I was a kid growing up, in my neighborhood there was a man who seemed pleasant. But once or twice he was known to put his cigarette out on his kids arms.

Someone I was quite close to, told me Bill Franks put his cigarette out on her arm.

Bill Franks seemed pleasant enough, but like the crazy guy in my neighborhood, he allegedly put his cigarette out on this girls arm.

I believe her, there is no reason not to, but I probably wouldn't have believed her if I hadn't known about the pleasant man in my neighborhood who did the same thng.

Add this to the fact that I saw him hit people, and do other physically and emotionally cruel things as well as.

My opinion is that if you fall into his sway, then you haven't learned anything from your experiences in Scientology.

And if you believe in him, then don't criticize those who believe in Hubbard, or Ratburn, or Miscavige, because you are doing the same thing.

And like them, you can't see it.

But good luck to you.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[JustMe]

..............I remember when I came into Scientology in the early 80s, the GO by that time had been taken over by the Sea Org. I think they existed as the GO under the SO before they were disbanded in 1983 or so. Then they were "Special Unit" for a little while before OSA was formed. Anyone who was around at that time: Does this sound right to you? I joined the SO in 1982 and at that time the GO was definitely not autonomous.................

The GO was never Special Unit, but much of it was run for some time by parts of Special Unit.


By way of background, Miscavige helped create an “All Clear” unit and the purpose of the unit was to make it all clear for LRH to come out of hiding by handling all the potential legal threats against him. Miscavige got LRH’s ear in this unit and was able to write to LRH not going via normal channels such as his then seniors in CMO Int. Instead Miscavige just had to go through Pat Broker after a while.


Once Miscavige had this almost direct line to Hubbard, he used it to in effect take over both CMO and the GO. In both cases in early 1981 he got the leaders to step down because of alleged LRH orders that they do so.


Up until that point the CMO and the GO often served as more or less a “check and balance” against each other. For example, some overzealous person under CMO would funnel some scientology money to Hubbard (say a million or two). The GO often jumped all over such things saying the payments had to be legally defensible which did slow the pace of money to Hubbard.


Once Miscavige had complete influence over both the GO and CMO that “check and balance” was gone forever. As an almost immediate result, over $40,000,000 of organized scientology money was funneled to Hubbard in just part of 1982. Gang bang sec checks went in with a vengeance and there were more people declared in 1982 alone than in the 15 previous years of the GO. In never got better after the GO morphed into OSA. It only got worse as more and more of Hubbard’s orders and policies were blindly followed by his most zealous followers in the CMO.


Anyway, Miscavige’s All Clear Unit got divided into Special Project (which later became Author Services) and Special Unit which took over what was considered the very most important external affairs actions such as the Corporate Sortout and the main litigation that threatened LRH.


Special Project for some time included Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Lyman Spurlock, Fred and Fran Harris, Ron and Becky Pook, Terri Gamboa, etc.. Special Unit for a while had Steve Marlow as its IC, Larry Brennan over corporate, Marty Rathbun over litigation, Geoff Shervelle over intelligence and Rudy Lowing, Heber and Karen Jentsch over PR. After the initial corporate sortout missions launched the likes of CSI, RTC, etc., Larry Brennan became Special Unit IC and Steve Morlowe moved to be the first real RTC staff member which started another little piece of the puzzle.


What was left of the GO (after Mary Sue and Jame Kember stepped down and CMO missions got rid of many of the top execs) got run in a couple of ways. One was by CMO Missions at Saint Hill and in LA. The other way was that any of the people in Special Unit could run anyone they wanted to run in the GO. So, for example, Larry Brennan got to run corporate sortout teams in LA, the UK, Clearwater and Denmark to help in the implementation of the corporate sortout. Handpicked people, mostly ex GO, were used.


Another example is that Marty Rathbun got to run mostly GO “All Clear Units” on the major litigation. Check out this Special Unit ED from August 1982 commending the GO for what was considered major legal wins then:


http://www.scribd.com/doc/36579546/Spec-Unit-ED-Ok-by-Spec-Pjt (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36579546/Spec-Unit-ED-Ok-by-Spec-Pjt)

This was the USGO All Clear team run out of Special Unit. Notice the “very well done” to Moxen at the top. What was considered wins were legal “wins” over the likes of Paulette Cooper, Gabe Cazares, Gerry Armstrong and others they tried to crush using legal. Special Unit LE who wrote that was Marty Rathbun. “LE” stood for “Litigation Execution”. Special Pjt L who approved it was Norman Starkey.

Also Intel and PR people from the GO could be attached to those units run out of Special Unit.
After a while in 1982, Special Unit started taking over more of the normal running of the GO staff and the CMO missions ran fewer parts of it. That division in Special Unit was run by Michelle Black.


Much of what was once in the GO got called "OSA" and at some point Special Unit went out of existence as all of external affairs got blended into the “normal” scientology organizational structure such as OSA Int running things, there being continental offices of OSA and the DSA (Dept. of Special Affairs) in the local orgs. There was even a WDC Member for OSA. So when Rinder was put over OSA Int, he was also secretly made the WDC member for OSA.

OSA did not include the old GO's Social Coordination (which became ABLE) or Finance.

Now all was “form of the org” from WDC down to the local orgs. (BTW that was mostly how WDC was posted, the top exec of one area , for example the CMO member for FSO, would be made the WDC member over it too. Prior to there being an OSA and a full form of the org for OSA as above, Larry Brennan was the WDC member over external affairs which at the time was called “WDC X”.


The funny thing though was Hubbard constantly ran organized scientology and did it for many, many years covertly. So he really controlled both of the really powerful units in scientology being the CMO and the GO. He also was over it all after the GO was taken over so in truth there was no change in the real power in scientology.


Whoever had the “comm lines” to Hubbard back then got to run things. After Hubbard was out of the picture either because of his mental state in his last years or after his death, it was those under Miscavige who ran things.

It made no difference what corporate or organization shell was used be it OSA, the GO, CMO, RTC, Staff Captains, you name it, it was all covertly controlled by Hubbard and then Miscavige.
Anyway I hope that this bit of info helps with the question you had above.

[Gadfly]

When I got in back in '75 Bill Franks was the ED of the org (FCDC). Being a total nube I never met him but in later years after he was gone, many that had experience with him as ED there expressed that he was quite a dictator - He had his EO carry a billy club and if I recall correctly Franks carried or had weapons on display in his office. He was not a nice fellow back then. That doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth about his experiences, but he wasn't a hero to very many people that I knew that knew him - he was FEARED. Note that he was a Marine before getting in. Hubbard appears to have a preference for ruthless militaristic people to run things. I can't tell you how many times "ruthless" and "for blood" were used in "motivating" staff & public.

Yeah, I heard many of the same things. I went to FOLO EUS in 1977, and was in the Flag Rep office. I would handle external org FRs. I remember talking to the two Flag Reps from DC and they told me some crazy stories about Franks.

Other senior executives at FOLO who had experiences with him also told me similar stories to what you said. He was a "brutal" product officer - which while a "good thing" in Scientology often makes for an asshole of a human being.

That was a LONG time ago. I have no idea what he is like now, as we all have changed over the past 30 years (hopefully).

If he in some way gets real attention put on some of the crimes of Scientology, well great. I am all for that. But, I won't be buddying up to him anytime soon.

[Petey C]

I get what TAJ is saying. I worked for Bill and yes, he could be a hard man. But once I got over my fear of him he was actually one of the better bosses I had in the SO. That was because he was smart, interesting and unafraid to acknowledge what he saw -- and I think he saw plenty. I didn't know him in the early years though his reputation as a hard product officer was well known around Flag. I'm not defending him but rather putting a different view out there; we were all under the gun and we all reacted in ways we might be ashamed of, but that's not the whole story for Bill or for anyone else.

[Thrak]

One of Sneakster's posts on MartyWorld.





It's actually kind of sad to see an adult so desperate to cling onto fairy tales.

Scientology makes the able more able pathetic.

I was going to say the same thing. It may be mean to say so but some over there aren't exactly playing with a full deck and from what I've seen being one of Elron's Loyal Officers gives them I guess a sense of purpose that they must not be getting from anywhere else - I guess. It might be interesting to see the cast of characters still standing up for Flubbo in 10 years time.

[Veda]

-snip-

When I was a kid growing up, in my neighborhood there was a man

-snip-

And if you believe in him

-snip-



Oy vey.

You are grandly missing the point of this thread, and of what I am saying.

[Vittorio]

Bill Franks and David Mayo knew Hubbard personally and knew an awful lot about him. One was his ED and one was his Auditor.

The FZ have created a sort of cocoon of explanation for why things went wrong in Scientology and that protects the integrity of the tech. If Hubbard's integrity is questioned too much then faith in the tech may dissipate.

They follow the path of 'Hubbard may not have been perfect but he developed the tech and it works and if followed standardly it brings results' and anything that upsets that drives them mad.

From experience, Michael needs a guru, he's got that in Rathbun. He's a very sad and fragile character whose world was slowly coming apart here on ESMB. IFA are the same, they evolve around this 'stable datum'. God help you if you question them, they cannot stand that.

Once a person finds out that life isn't black and white, they can tolerate any information that is thrown their way......

[Captain Koolaid]

The Indies are simply applying the tech: Truth is what's true for you. And it works! Hussah!:duh:

[Smilla]

All the Scientology groups are cults. Cof$, Indys, Freezone, Free Zone. It makes no difference that they have slight differences in the way they portray themselves. It's the Cult of Hubbard, and they all want to control peoples thinking. To be specific, the goal is to convert people into thinkers of Hubbard's thoughts after their own thoughts have been expunged.

[HelluvaHoax!]

All the Scientology groups are cults. Cof$, Indys, Freezone, Free Zone. It makes no difference that they have slight differences in the way they portray themselves. It's the Cult of Hubbard, and they all want to control peoples thinking. To be specific, the goal is to convert people into thinkers of Hubbard's thoughts after their own thoughts have been expunged.

I love that post. And....

Yes, that is really the same conclusion I reached about Scientology.

It is an exercise in trying to think the right thoughts--which is not actually possible. One can, however, begin to approach this mentally unbalanced state of mind if one is capable of "getting into character" by means of a fairly creepy & cringey level of self-hypnosis, like the actor Tom Cruise, the "world's most dedicated Scientologist".

Dedicated is a key word in Scientology. There is a reason that slavemasters like Hubbard and Miscavich use it so preciously. Confused & disoriented Scientologists mistakenly think it has something to do with ethical persistence towards reaching a worthy goal.

[Captain Koolaid]

All the Scientology groups are cults. Cof$, Indys, Freezone, Free Zone. It makes no difference that they have slight differences in the way they portray themselves. It's the Cult of Hubbard, and they all want to control peoples thinking. To be specific, the goal is to convert people into thinkers of Hubbard's thoughts after their own thoughts have been expunged.

Is there a Free Zone and a Freezone? It somehow reminds me of the People's Front of Judea/Judean People's Front. And let's not forget the Ron's Orgers... or are they different? :wink2:

[degraded being]

All the Scientology groups are cults. Cof$, Indys, Freezone, Free Zone. It makes no difference that they have slight differences in the way they portray themselves. It's the Cult of Hubbard, and they all want to control peoples thinking. To be specific, the goal is to convert people into thinkers of Hubbard's thoughts after their own thoughts have been expunged.

Smilla, your post just got me connecting dots.

Why would they need to do this? (what you talk about in your post).
Does it go like this?
First, the person is not happy with something about themselves (who isn't?).
They find an answer - Hubbard's crap or part thereof. And it may actually be the answer, or at least AN answer that provides reassurance that their discomfort can be stopped or controlled enough to give them a reprieve. All of this may not be a huge thing, perhaps just a minor or medium "ruin". Anyway, they have alleviation from the authoritative promise that someone KNOWS how to take them out of their discomfort, then by being brought to a "win". Of course this grows into the promise that all of their discomfort, all of the shallow and deep fears, insecurities etc, that humans suffer, can be gotten rid of. To do this, the mind must be controlled, actually expunged, as you say. By extension, or as some might say, because we are all connected, ALL minds are the source of angst and must be controlled. Thinking must be controlled. Thoughts that are not controlled the Hubbard way are "reactive" from "engrams" from all along the "whole track". "Just spreading a bit of ARC" has an agenda.

[PirateAndBum]

All the Scientology groups are cults. Cof$, Indys, Freezone, Free Zone. It makes no difference that they have slight differences in the way they portray themselves. It's the Cult of Hubbard, and they all want to control peoples thinking. To be specific, the goal is to convert people into thinkers of Hubbard's thoughts after their own thoughts have been expunged.

Cults yes. But dangerous cults, I don't think I'd go that far. They don't compare to the Co$. No OSA, Sea Org, RPF, crush regging, heavy ethics, SP declares, etc.

And how many people are in these groups? Very few.

Marty&Co's a menace only because he has the potential for going back to the Co$ if DM gets ousted and would likely take many of his flock along. But he's got no organization (at least that I can see)

[BardoThodol]

Oops! Posted a reply to this on the Technical Purity thread.

The confusion of old age. heh-heh-heh!

[Smilla]

Cults yes. But dangerous cults, I don't think I'd go that far. They don't compare to the Co$. No OSA, Sea Org, RPF, crush regging, heavy ethics, SP declares, etc.

And how many people are in these groups? Very few.

Marty&Co's a menace only because he has the potential for going back to the Co$ if DM gets ousted and would likely take many of his flock along. But he's got no organization (at least that I can see)

They don't practice the Human Rights abuses to the same degree, but as Mind Benders, screwing around with people's thoughts, they are still very dangerous. They practice Thought Reform by consent, but it's still brainwashing. You should have a look at the way Aida was hounded, stalked, and bullied by Terril Parks and it will give you a taste of what they are really about. I think he was consciously trying to do her in mentally, but she's a tough cookie and he failed. Have a look at what Ethier tried to do to Emma.

Here's DB's take on how they get into people's heads.




snip

First, the person is not happy with something about themselves (who isn't?).
They find an answer - Hubbard's crap or part thereof. And it may actually be the answer, or at least AN answer that provides reassurance that their discomfort can be stopped or controlled enough to give them a reprieve. All of this may not be a huge thing, perhaps just a minor or medium "ruin". Anyway, they have alleviation from the authoritative promise that someone KNOWS how to take them out of their discomfort, then by being brought to a "win". Of course this grows into the promise that all of their discomfort, all of the shallow and deep fears, insecurities etc, that humans suffer, can be gotten rid of. To do this, the mind must be controlled, actually expunged, as you say. By extension, or as some might say, because we are all connected, ALL minds are the source of angst and must be controlled. Thinking must be controlled. Thoughts that are not controlled the Hubbard way are "reactive" from "engrams" from all along the "whole track". "Just spreading a bit of ARC" has an agenda.

The unstated goal is to spread Hubbard's ideas to every area of society and to 'clear the planet'. This means converting as many people as possible into little LRH's. I know of two people who were literally destroyed by non-Cof$ scientology.

They are dangerous - perhaps you haven't seen that with your own eyes, but I have, so I have good reason to think as I do.

[PirateAndBum]

Smilla, your post just got me connecting dots.

Why would they need to do this? (what you talk about in your post).
Does it go like this?
First, the person is not happy with something about themselves (who isn't?).
They find an answer - Hubbard's crap or part thereof. And it may actually be the answer, or at least AN answer that provides reassurance that their discomfort can be stopped or controlled enough to give them a reprieve. All of this may not be a huge thing, perhaps just a minor or medium "ruin". Anyway, they have alleviation from the authoritative promise that someone KNOWS how to take them out of their discomfort, then by being brought to a "win". Of course this grows into the promise that all of their discomfort, all of the shallow and deep fears, insecurities etc, that humans suffer, can be gotten rid of. To do this, the mind must be controlled, actually expunged, as you say. By extension, or as some might say, because we are all connected, ALL minds are the source of angst and must be controlled. Thinking must be controlled. Thoughts that are not controlled the Hubbard way are "reactive" from "engrams" from all along the "whole track". "Just spreading a bit of ARC" has an agenda.

BRAINWASHING MANUAL PARALLELS IN SCIENTOLOGY (http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Brainwashing%20Manual%20Parallels.pdf) describes the entire mind-control process very well. Pages 25-28 describe the "White Scientology" part well.

heh, Veda is contagious :coolwink:

[Smilla]

BRAINWASHING MANUAL PARALLELS IN SCIENTOLOGY (http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Brainwashing%20Manual%20Parallels.pdf) describes the entire mind-control process very well. Pages 25-28 describe the "White Scientology" part well.

heh, Veda is contagious :coolwink:

Yeah, he really knows his stuff.

[PirateAndBum]

They don't practice the Human Rights abuses to the same degree, but as Mind Benders, screwing around with people's thoughts, they are still very dangerous. They practice Thought Reform by consent, but it's still brainwashing. You should have a look at the way Aida was hounded, stalked, and bullied by Terril Parks and it will give you a taste of what they are really about. I think he was consciously trying to do her in mentally, but she's a tough cookie and he failed. Have a look at what Ethier tried to do to Emma.


Where would I find these: "the way Aida was hounded, stalked, and bullied by Terril Parks" & "what Ethier tried to do to Emma"? Do you have links?

[Lulu Belle]

Hubbard appears to have a preference for ruthless militaristic people to run things. I can't tell you how many times "ruthless" and "for blood" were used in "motivating" staff & public.

True. Kind of reminds me of Andre Tabayoyon. Also ex-military, and was kind of like that too when he was in. Ran the RPF a lot.

[Lulu Belle]

The GO was never Special Unit, but much of it was run for some time by parts of Special Unit.


By way of background, Miscavige helped create an “All Clear” unit and the purpose of the unit was to make it all clear for LRH to come out of hiding by handling all the potential legal threats against him. Miscavige got LRH’s ear in this unit and was able to write to LRH not going via normal channels such as his then seniors in CMO Int. Instead Miscavige just had to go through Pat Broker after a while.

<snipped rest of awesome post>

I just want to say that was an incredible post with absolutely great information.

It's this kind of thing that makes this board so invaluable.

:thumbsup:

[Smilla]

Where would I find these: "the way Aida was hounded, stalked, and bullied by Terril Parks" & "what Ethier tried to do to Emma"? Do you have links?

You'd just have to a search or two. There's lots of it across several threads.

[I told you I was trouble]

Cults yes. But dangerous cults, I don't think I'd go that far. They don't compare to the Co$. No OSA, Sea Org, RPF, crush regging, heavy ethics, SP declares, etc.





They help to maintain the insidious cofs madness ... there are people (out of the cofs) sitting in rooms daily, with an e-meter, hunting for "BT's" (or "spiritual teammates" as some have renamed them) ... that can't be good for mental health but as long as they keep it to themselves they are not hurting anyone.

:no:

But, by maintaining the cofs madness the person is still 'outside' the real world, often deluded and making decisions based on the insanity of hubbards cultic indoctrination and involving people that love them (including children) who are not cultic in their thinking and may (dare to) voice disagreement or surprise at some of the viewpoints firmly held ... which immediately and charmingly labels them an enemy/SP/DB/entheta/low toned/PTS or out ethics git .... prime meat for disconnection.

:omg:

I prefer the cofs culties because at least I know exactly where I am with them (an out ethics, low toned, degraded and hideous SP ... on a good day).

The non cofs scio's pick and choose which bits they like and add their own (often weird) spin on it all and a lot of them just love to lecture others, guru like as they hunt for agreement, new recruits and paying "PC's" ...

:run:

[Dulloldfart]

Is there a Free Zone and a Freezone?

Yes and no.

CBR launched the "Free Zone" with a space between the two words. The Ron's Org (CBR) guys retain the space. Think of them as the "Free Space Zone" with the mothership and all the Sector 9 space opera junk as a memory aid.

The Freezone or freezone is just a loose association of peeps who look on themselves as Scios outside the CofS and use Scn tech to some extent.

That's the "yes" part of the answer.

-----

Many people use "freezone" and "free zone" (or capitalized) interchangeably, not being aware of (or not caring about) the difference. That's the "no" part.

Paul

[Boojuum]

...snip

I remember talking to the two Flag Reps from DC and they told me some crazy stories about Franks.

Other senior executives at FOLO who had experiences with him also told me similar stories to what you said. He was a "brutal" product officer - which while a "good thing" in Scientology often makes for an asshole of a human being.

...snip
.

I would HATE for my behavior while IN to stand as evidence for the way I am now. It's strange that I deeply miss so many of my old Scieno buddies but they may not miss me. Can't say that I blame them. The Scieno effect can be pretty deep and drove me to act in lamentable ways.

In Bill Franks' recent interview, he is a saint.

For the time he was in, there was NO way he could have been less than a RUTHLESS PRICK and risen to ED of so many different orgs.

[PirateAndBum]

I would HATE for my behavior while IN to stand as evidence for the way I am now. It's strange that I deeply miss so many of my old Scieno buddies but they may not miss me. Can't say that I blame them. The Scieno effect can be pretty deep and drove me to act in lamentable ways.

In Bill Franks' recent interview, he is a saint.

For the time he was in, there was NO way he could have been less than a RUTHLESS PRICK and risen to ED of so many different orgs.

Yes, at least he dropped the whole thing and moved on with his life. Just goes to show the LRH influence, the higher up the org board you go the nastier you have to be to survive.

[PirateAndBum]

They help to maintain the insidious cofs madness ... there are people (out of the cofs) sitting in rooms daily, with an e-meter, hunting for "BT's" (or "spiritual teammates" as some have renamed them) ... that can't be good for mental health but as long as they keep it to themselves they are not hurting anyone.

:no:

But, by maintaining the cofs madness the person is still 'outside' the real world, often deluded and making decisions based on the insanity of hubbards cultic indoctrination and involving people that love them (including children) who are not cultic in their thinking and may (dare to) voice disagreement or surprise at some of the viewpoints firmly held ... which immediately and charmingly labels them an enemy/SP/DB/entheta/low toned/PTS or out ethics git .... prime meat for disconnection.

:omg:

I prefer the cofs culties because at least I know exactly where I am with them (an out ethics, low toned, degraded and hideous SP ... on a good day).

The non cofs scio's pick and choose which bits they like and add their own (often weird) spin on it all and a lot of them just love to lecture others, guru like as they hunt for agreement, new recruits and paying "PC's" ...

:run:



Hang on, let me put down my solo cans to answer you... :omg:

I suppose that some that are out are still in agreement with Hubbo's ethics policies and that's scary to think that they would inflict disconnecton on their family. But I suppose it still happens. Mindboggled Scilon iz mindboggled.

I don't have such a low opinion of those still trapped. Most of them think they are doing something that they've been conned into believing is he only hope for mankind. I was in that trap for over half my life. I'm sure glad to be out. :happydance:

[I told you I was trouble]

Hang on, let me put down my solo cans to answer you... :omg:

I suppose that some that are out are still in agreement with Hubbo's ethics policies and that's scary to think that they would inflict disconnecton on their family. But I suppose it still happens. Mindboggled Scilon iz mindboggled.

I don't have such a low opinion of those still trapped. Most of them think they are doing something that they've been conned into believing is he only hope for mankind. I was in that trap for over half my life. I'm sure glad to be out. :happydance:



Lol ... I'm glad you're out too.

I don't for a moment buy that anyone could still really believe that they (via the tek) are the 'only hope' for mankind, I find that ridiculous.

Now, get yourself back into session (yours hours are badly down).


:coolwink:

[Gadfly]

Lol ... I'm glad you're out too.

I don't for a moment buy that anyone could still really believe that they (via the tek) are the 'only hope' for mankind, I find that ridiculous.

Now, get yourself back into session (yours hours are badly down).

:coolwink:

I think you need to get out more. :biggrin: (so do I actually . . . . )

I live in eastern Tennessee where "Baptist Fever" is alive and well.

I have had quite a few talks with diferent members of different local churches, and many VERY MUCH feel and believe that they have the ONLY hope for Mankind.

"Jesus is your Lord and Savior."

"Have accepted Jesus into your life."

These people are very certain that Christianity, at least THEIR VERSION of Christianity, is the only correct understanding and path to salvation.

It is COMMON for many religious people to feel that ONLY THEY have the "right path to salvation".

This actually manifests in politics too, where near raving rabid party supporters also truly feel and believe that ONLY his or her way is the "solution to the problems".

MANY people very much believe that his or her way/path/religion/political party IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

It is not ridiculous at all. If you study people and what they do, this behavior constantly rears its ugly head.

Yes, I do think that thinking what they think is ridiculous, but it is not ridiculous that THEY do, as a fact, believe what they believe completely.

[I told you I was trouble]

I think you need to get out more. :biggrin: (so do I actually . . . . )

I live in eastern Tennessee where "Baptist Fever" is alive and well.

I have had quite a few talks with diferent members of different local churches, and many VERY MUCH feel and believe that they have the ONLY hope for Mankind.

"Jesus is your Lord and Savior."

"Have accepted Jesus into your life."

These people are very certain that Christianity, at least THEIR VERSION of Christianity, is the only correct understanding and path to salvation.

It is COMMON for many religious people to feel that ONLY THEY have the "right path to salvation".

This actually manifests in politics too, where near raving rabid party supporters also truly feel and believe that ONLY his or her way is the "solution to the problems".

MANY people very much believe that his or her way/path/religion/political party IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

It is not ridiculous at all. If you study people and what they do, this behavior constantly rears its ugly head.

Yes, I do think that thinking what they think is ridiculous, but it is not ridiculous that THEY believe what they believe completely.



Tis so ...

:coolwink:

[Veda]

The GO was never Special Unit, but much of it was run for some time by parts of Special Unit.


By way of background, Miscavige helped create an “All Clear” unit and the purpose of the unit was to make it all clear for LRH to come out of hiding by handling all the potential legal threats against him. Miscavige got LRH’s ear in this unit and was able to write to LRH not going via normal channels such as his then seniors in CMO Int. Instead Miscavige just had to go through Pat Broker after a while.


-snip-



It was Hubbard who decided to go into hiding, and it was he who decided to throw his wife under the bus, redefine 'Clear', elevate Dianetics, and butcher the middle Grade Chart for PR and marketing reasons, and it was Hubbard who decided to loot the Missions.

No doubt, Miscavige had his ear, but Hubbard was making the decisions, and it was Hubbard who could have gone anywhere he wished, and talked to anyone he wished. Instead, the author of the Tone Scale, decided to make David Miscavige his number one henchman.

Hubbard was not senile, he was not bedridden. He could pick up a telephone and talk to anyone. He was not, as some outside the CofS Scientologists have insisted, "under virtual house arrest."

It was Hubbard who wrote the Fair Game Law, that condoned first degree murder, in March 1965. It was Hubbard who, in 1967, wrote of how Scientology should operate as a ruthless "tight conspiracy." It was Hubbard who plotted to destroy a 100 lb woman's life because she wrote a little paperback book that he didn't like.

The Hubbard of 1980 was not much different from the 1970 Hubbard.

Hubbard knew he was getting old and time was running out, and he decided that it was time to "call in the chits." First, prices were raised monthly (which started in 1976), then the Grade Chart was changed around (1978 - 1981) to increase the flow of money up lines, ultimately to Hubbard, and then the Missions were looted.

It was Hubbard who placed the CMO over the GO, thus pulling the rug out from under his wife, who was, let's keep in mind, about to go to federal prison for the commission of felonies - felonies that her husband had masterminded.

Other posts on this thread describe this period, and Hubbard's paranoia and ruthlessness, and his desire to conceal his control of Scientology for his own protection.


From Larry Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

(Press "Control" and then "F" to find key words or dates, such as 1983.)

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1


By the way, two other cult leaders, around the same time, were sentenced to federal prison for breaking the law...

Lyndon LaRouche, who was sentenced to prison for mail fraud and tax violations, and continued to run his organization while serving his sentence. He was eventually released from prison, and continues to lead his organization at age 89.

Then there's Sun Myung Moon, another cult leader, who was sent to prison for income tax fraud and conspiracy. He continued to run his organization from inside prison, and was eventually released, and continues as leader of his organization at age 92.

Hubbard let his wife take the rap for his crimes, and ran away and hid - all the while making sure that the cash flow, and his monuments-to-himself projects, continued.

[Smilla]

I would HATE for my behavior while IN to stand as evidence for the way I am now. It's strange that I deeply miss so many of my old Scieno buddies but they may not miss me. Can't say that I blame them. The Scieno effect can be pretty deep and drove me to act in lamentable ways.

In Bill Franks' recent interview, he is a saint.

For the time he was in, there was NO way he could have been less than a RUTHLESS PRICK and risen to ED of so many different orgs.

We all did things that would have been better not done when we were in, but BF has put his cards on the table, and he is no friend of any Scientology Mind Benders, and he's speaking out, so that makes him OK in my view, unlike Marty and Co who are still Bending Minds and selling the old lies.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

We all did things that would have been better not done when we were in, but BF has put his cards on the table, and he is no friend of any Scientology Mind Benders, and he's speaking out, so that makes him OK in my view, unlike Marty and Co who are still Bending Minds and selling the old lies.


It is true that we all did things we should not have done in the name of Scientology.

I didn't know Franks apologized for the physical beatings and tortue.

I'm pretty certain that if Miscavige had put a cigarette out on a young girls' arm that some people on this board would go nuclear.

There is a difference between face-ripping and physical tortue and physical intimidation.

Of course, he doesn't act that way now that he's out of Scientology. He would go to prison if he did.

And my experience with Franks is enough to know that while he may put his cards on the table, he still has an ace up his sleeve.

My point is this: putting a cigarette out on a young girl is a little bit more than just ruthless product officering.

It is a sign of a particularly bad and vicious character.

And I think that people understand this.

And that phenomenon of befriending someone like this is the same phenomenon of people who are still in and defending Miscavige.

It's a human weakness; a weakness that kept some of us in Scientology long after we knew deep inside that there was something seriously wrong.

I do not believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Especially when that person is of the same nature as my enemy.

Our survival isn't at stake here.

Taking this guy into the fold discredits any idea that we are the good guys and the Church are the bad guys.

It just makes it a game of we are more expediate in their destruction than they are in ours.

If ever any of us surrendered our integrity while in the Church of Scientology, accepting Franks as a friend is doing it all over again.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Smilla]

It is true that we all did things we should not have done in the name of Scientology.

I didn't know Franks apologized for the physical beatings and tortue.

I'm pretty certain that if Miscavige had put a cigarette out on a young girls' arm that some people on this board would go nuclear.

There is a difference between face-ripping and physical tortue and physical intimidation.

Of course, he doesn't act that way now that he's out of Scientology. He would go to prison if he did.

And my experience with Franks is enough to know that while he may put his cards on the table, he still has an ace up his sleeve.

My point is this: putting a cigarette out on a young girl is a little bit more than just ruthless product officering.

It is a sign of a particularly bad and vicious character.

And I think that people understand this.

And that phenomenon of befriending someone like this is the same phenomenon of people who are still in and defending Miscavige.

It's a human weakness; a weakness that kept some of us in Scientology long after we knew deep inside that there was something seriously wrong.

I do not believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Especially when that person is of the same nature as my enemy.

Our survival isn't at stake here.

Taking this guy into the fold discredits any idea that we are the good guys and the Church are the bad guys.

It just makes it a game of we are more expediate in their destruction than they are in ours.

If ever any of us surrendered our integrity while in the Church of Scientology, accepting Franks as a friend is doing it all over again.

The Anabaptist Jacques

You obviously know things that I don't know. I make my decisions based on what I do know. If you are saying that you know for sure that he did the things that I have emphasised above, that will mean that I have to change my opinion. I trust you to tell the truth, so that's no problem.

Do you know for sure that he did those things? All of them?

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

You obviously know things that I don't know. I make my decisions based on what I do know. If you are saying that you know for sure that he did the things that I have emphasised above, that will mean that I have to change my opinion. I trust you to tell the truth, so that's no problem.

Do you know for sure that he did those things? All of them?


I saw him hitting people and I saw his physical intimidation of othes.

I trust the young girl who told me that he put the cigarette out on her arm and I saw her arm.

By the way, when she told me this I grabbed a baseball bat and said "I'm gonna beat the shit out of that punk."

She pleaded with me not to do this because he was here, sent by Ron, and he is OT, and I would be declared and probably go to jail.

(At the time I was banned from the org having been physically overpowered and removed from the org by two of his bodyguards. I can't say the reason because it would reveal my identity. but it had to do with my writing a KR)

I know of other accounts from friends, close friends, of the vicious behaviour in addition to the things I saw.

And keep in mind these are not Sea Org members who he was doing this to but org staff.

I certainly have more evidence that convinces me tha he did these things than the people on this board have of the same accusations against Miscavige.

When a Scientologists told me that they didn't believe that Miscavige was hitting people I told them that I saw a Sea Org officer hitting people back in the 70s at an org.

Of course in an isolated compound the head of the entire organization was beating people. That's what happens in a fascist enviornment.

Oddly enough, I heard the story by several people after I left the area that Franks used to wear a Nazi uniform a few times while on post.

I don't believe that. But you might ask some people if they did see it.

This is not just another ruthless product officer.

Accepting him as a friend in any fashion for any reason is where I draw the line.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Smilla]

I saw him hitting people and I saw his physical intimidation of othes.

I trust the young girl who told me that he put the cigarette out on her arm and I saw her arm.

By the way, when she told me this I grabbed a baseball bat and said "I'm gonna beat the shit out of that punk."

She pleaded with me not to do this because he was here, sent by Ron, and he is OT, and I would be declared and probably go to jail.

(At the time I was banned from the org having been physically overpowered and removed from the org by two of his bodyguards. I can't say the reason because it would reveal my identity. but it had to do with my writing a KR)

I know of other accounts from friends, close friends, of the vicious behaviour in addition to the things I saw.

And keep in mind these are not Sea Org members who he was doing this to but org staff.

I certainly have more evidence that convinces me tha he did these things than the people on this board have of the same accusations against Miscavige.

When a Scientologists told me that they didn't believe that Miscavige was hitting people I told them that I saw a Sea Org officer hitting people back in the 70s at an org.

Of course in an isolated compound the head of the entire organization was beating people. That's what happens in a fascist enviornment.

Oddly enough, I heard the story by several people after I left the area that Franks used to wear a Nazi uniform a few times while on post.

I don't believe that. But you might ask some people if they did see it.

This is not just another ruthless product officer.

Accepting him as a friend in any fashion for any reason is where I draw the line.

The Anabaptist Jacques

OK then. I trust you, so I've changed my position to neutral, and am looking into things. Thanks for the info.

[PirateAndBum]

TAJ, You can treat Bill Franks however you wish.

How do you know that he isn't sorry for all the shit he did?

And really, what does that have to do with the information he has given?

Marty and Mike have come out with their stories. No one is questioning that they are making things up when they say DM is abusing staff. They certainly haven't come clean or apologized for the shit they did either.

Seems every top exec in Co$ was a monster in some fashion. That doesn't mean that they can't provide valuable information about the things they witnessed.

Who is "befriending" him? Is believing what someone says a befriending?

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

TAJ, You can treat Bill Franks however you wish.

How do you know that he isn't sorry for all the shit he did?

And really, what does that have to do with the information he has given?

Marty and Mike have come out with their stories. No one is questioning that they are making things up when they say DM is abusing staff. They certainly haven't come clean or apologized for the shit they did either.

Seems every top exec in Co$ was a monster in some fashion. That doesn't mean that they can't provide valuable information about the things they witnessed.

Who is "befriending" him? Is believing what someone says a befriending?

You're distorting me. I say I don't care if his information is correct or not. That is not my issue.

My point is that the Bill Franks I know is a vicious, self-serving and manipulative individual.

I think it is foolish to trust him, even if some particular information he gives supports what you want to believe.

But that is up to each person to decide.

But as far as I am concerned, and I know that others that had similar expericences with Franks, I will never consider him a friend or utilize him for any purpose.

And if the people on this board do take him into the fold, then they are no different than Miscavige's followers or Ratburn followers.

You can't make the argument that you are for justice and truth if this guy is on your side.

You can only argue that you just want to outdo the Church, not do away with the evil.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[PirateAndBum]

I just read your last post. Yeah, I heard people talk about him beating up on people too (back in 77 or so in DC) Was that picture of the scio in a nazi uniform that I've seen on the net a pick of him?

He may have been just as nasty as DM when it comes to handling staff. It's gross. The environment was high pressure. Public sometimes used to get locked up until they'd pay for services too - crush regging really was no picnic back in the 70's. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior. Just saying Scn can make someone a nutjob, or maybe the marines did it to him or maybe his dad or ...

[Gadfly]

My point is that the Bill Franks I know is a vicious, self-serving and manipulative individual.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Umm, the "the Bill Franks that you" KNEW (past tense).

When was the last time you actually saw him live in-person?

Making decisions based on who any person was 30 years ago or more doesn't make much sense to me. Or, do you feel that people "cannot change"?

The version of Bill Franks you KNEW, way back then, was a "vicious, self-serving and manipulative individual". But, hey, it is 2012, and not 1980.

GET INTO PT! If you want to . . . . . .

Of course, my view is that I don't have the time or inclination to get up to speed on who or what he is today, now. For the most part, I just don't care. It has nothing to do with me. :confused2:

I already know plenty enough about the nastiness of Scientology (and Hubbard) to make an informed decision, and whether what Franks says is true or not won't really change what I very much already know about Hubbard and his sorry-ass Scientology.

[PirateAndBum]

You're distorting me. I say I don't care if his information is correct or not. That is not my issue.

My point is that the Bill Franks I know is a vicious, self-serving and manipulative individual.

I think it is foolish to trust him, even if some particular information he gives supports what you want to believe.

But that is up to each person to decide.

But as far as I am concerned, and I know that others that had similar expericences with Franks, I will never consider him a friend or utilize him for any purpose.

And if the people on this board do take him into the fold, then they are no different than Miscavige's followers or Ratburn followers.

You can't make the argument that you are for justice and truth if this guy is on your side.

You can only argue that you just want to outdo the Church, not do away with the evil.

The Anabaptist Jacques

OK. That's how you feel.

I don't see any fauning over BF. BF is not spouting Hubbard's party line. He's got thrown out of the cult 30 years ago, helped in some legal battles against the cult, and then got on with his life. He's not starting a movement, soliciting PCs, asking anyone for anything. He hasn't posted on ESMB very much. I don't think he really has any interest in being taken in. I think he's moved on with his life.

I really have a lot more ire for Marty & Mike. They were fuckheads in and now they are out and promoting Hubbo - attracting a following of people that should be spitting on them not praising them.

[PirateAndBum]

It was Hubbard who decided to go into hiding, and it was he who decided to throw his wife under the bus, redefine 'Clear', elevate Dianetics, and butcher the middle Grade Chart for PR and marketing reasons, and it was Hubbard who decided to loot the Missions.

No doubt, Miscavige had his ear, but Hubbard was making the decisions, and it was Hubbard who could have gone anywhere he wished, and talked to anyone he wished. Instead, the author of the Tone Scale, decided to make David Miscavige his number one henchman.

Hubbard was not senile, he was not bedridden. He could pick up a telephone and talk to anyone. He was not, as some outside the CofS Scientologists have insisted, "under virtual house arrest."

It was Hubbard who wrote the Fair Game Law, that condoned first degree murder, in March 1965. It was Hubbard who, in 1967, wrote of how Scientology should operate as a ruthless "tight conspiracy." It was Hubbard who plotted to destroy a 100 lb woman's life because she wrote a little paperback book that he didn't like.

The Hubbard of 1980 was not much different from the 1970 Hubbard.

Hubbard knew he was getting old and time was running out, and he decided that it was time to "call in the chits." First, prices were raised monthly (which started in 1976), then the Grade Chart was changed around (1978 - 1981) to increase the flow of money up lines, ultimately to Hubbard, and then the Missions were looted.

It was Hubbard who placed the CMO over the GO, thus pulling the rug out from under his wife, who was, let's keep in mind, about to go to federal prison for the commission of felonies - felonies that her husband had masterminded.

Other posts on this thread describe this period, and Hubbard's paranoia and ruthlessness, and his desire to conceal his control of Scientology for his own protection.


From Larry Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

(Press "Control" and then "F" to find key words or dates, such as 1983.)

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1


By the way, two other cult leaders, around the same time, were sentenced to federal prison for breaking the law...

Lyndon LaRouche, who was sentenced to prison for mail fraud and tax violations, and continued to run his organization while serving his sentence. He was eventually released from prison, and continues to lead his organization at age 89.

Then there's Sun Myung Moon, another cult leader, who was sent to prison for income tax fraud and conspiracy. He continued to run his organization from inside prison, and was eventually released, and continues as leader of his organization at age 92.

Hubbard let his wife take the rap for his crimes, and ran away and hid - all the while making sure that the cash flow, and his monuments-to-himself projects, continued.

Why did he pull $40 million out when he knew he wasn't going anywhere and probably didn't have long to live? Where did that money go? His family certainly didn't get it. I fail to see the purpose for decimating the missions like he did unless it was just because he was pissed off at the franchise holders.

As to raising prices, that did make some sense - for a little while. There was serious inflation in the 70's and prices did need to increase to compensate, but nowhere near to the levels he let them get to.

But I still don't understand the $ motivation - he wasn't going to be able to spend it so why beef up raking it in? Was he trying to build up a war chest for legal battles? Maybe he thought it was all going to come crashing down soon - the gov't would shut down the orgs and he was trying to strip things like they did with CSC to not pay Wollersheim?

As to him letting MSH take the rap. When he had that assignment back in WW II when he was actually going to be on a ship that was going into REAL active combat, he finagled his ass a transfer right off that ship at the last moment.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Well, I'm glad you're all here...instead of being on Charles Manson's parole board!

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Gadfly]

Well, I'm glad you're all here...instead of being on Charles Manson's parole board!

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The Anabaptist Jacques

Mmmm, Charles Manson = Bill Franks . . . . . :duh: (according to TAJ's identification-type thinking, which locks the past together with the present)

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Mmmm, Charles Manson = Bill Franks . . . . . :duh: (according to TAJ's identification-type thinking, which locks the past together with the present)

It's called a JOKE!!!!!

Don't take yourself too seriously.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[HelluvaHoax!]

Why did he pull $40 million out when he knew he wasn't going anywhere and probably didn't have long to live? Where did that money go? His family certainly didn't get it. I fail to see the purpose for decimating the missions like he did unless it was just because he was pissed off at the franchise holders.

As to raising prices, that did make some sense - for a little while. There was serious inflation in the 70's and prices did need to increase to compensate, but nowhere near to the levels he let them get to.

But I still don't understand the $ motivation - he wasn't going to be able to spend it so why beef up raking it in? Was he trying to build up a war chest for legal battles? Maybe he thought it was all going to come crashing down soon - the gov't would shut down the orgs and he was trying to strip things like they did with CSC to not pay Wollersheim?

As to him letting MSH take the rap. When he had that assignment back in WW II when he was actually going to be on a ship that was going into REAL active combat, he finagled his ass a transfer right off that ship at the last moment.

Not sure if the dates are consistent, but i am wondering if "THE CURE FOR INFLATION" when Hubbard gouged cult members with unconscionable monthly rate hikes, if that was the same period that he had $2M per month in legal fees for close to 100 lawyers working on keeping him out of jail on that Operation Snow White meltdown?

Imagine for a moment (or recall) what Scientologists thought was going on with that price hike compared to what was really going on behind the curtain.....

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

It's called a JOKE!!!!!

Don't take yourself too seriously.

The Anabaptist Jacques

And especially don't take me too seriously!

The Anabaptist Jacques

[I told you I was trouble]

And especially don't take me too seriously!

The Anabaptist Jacques



:blowkiss:

[Gadfly]

It's called a JOKE!!!!!

Don't take yourself too seriously.

The Anabaptist Jacques

YOU are right. I did (take myself too seriously). I readjusted my view and how I read your post, and guess what?

:hysterical:

Thank-you.

[PirateAndBum]

Well, I'm glad you're all here...instead of being on Charles Manson's parole board!

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The Anabaptist Jacques
LOL

Parole-Boardee: Hey Charlie, is your needle floating?
Charlie: No MF, it ain't been floating since I read History of Man and found out I was a clam.
Parole-Boardee: Bzzzzt. Try again next time. (mutters: still hasn't given up the batshit cult shit.)

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

LOL

Parole-Boardee: Hey Charlie, is your needle floating?
Charlie: No MF, it ain't been floating since I read History of Man and found out I was a clam.
Parole-Boardee: Bzzzzt. Try again next time. (mutters: still hasn't given up the batshit cult shit.)

:roflmao::roflmao:

The Anabaptist Jacques

[ILove2Lurk]

Why did he pull $40 million out when he knew he wasn't going anywhere and probably didn't have long to live? Where did that money go? His family certainly didn't get it. I fail to see the purpose for decimating the missions like he did unless it was just because he was pissed off at the franchise holders.
. . .

But I still don't understand the $ motivation - he wasn't going to be able to spend it so why beef up raking it in?

. . .

For me this is the most puzzling aspect of that particular era. I guess we'll have to "follow the money." Refresh my memory. Does anybody remember how much was in the estate and where the bulk of it went? Do we know?

I guess all that might be in Marty's new book so I could wait and find out very soon. :eyeroll:

Speaking of Marty's book, does anybody know how much the book is gonna run? Anybody heard yet? Will it be a $7.99 "humbly tendered to man" kindle/ebook :unsure: or a $34.95 "solution to inflation" thin hardback. :omg:

We'll soon find out how serious Marty really is on disseminating "truth" at a price people can afford.

Seriously, I'm curious to read it. I'm gonna read it. I guess I have a lot of time on my hands to do those kinds of things. I'll have to put my doctor's phone number on speed dial though before I begin in case I have a bad reaction. :melodramatic:

ILove2Lurk

PS: And welcome back "face." :eyeroll: We've all missed you.

[Smilla]

For me this is the most puzzling aspect of that particular era. I guess we'll have to "follow the money." Refresh my memory. Does anybody remember how much was in the estate and where the bulk of it went? Do we know?

I guess all that might be in Marty's new book so I could wait and find out very soon. :eyeroll:

Speaking of Marty's book, does anybody know how much the book is gonna run? Anybody heard yet? Will it be a $7.99 "humbly tendered to man" kindle/ebook :unsure: or a $34.95 "solution to inflation" thin hardback. :omg:

We'll soon find out how serious Marty really is on disseminating "truth" at a price people can afford.

Seriously, I'm curious to read it. I'm gonna read it. I guess I have a lot of time on my hands to do those kinds of things. I'll have to put my doctor's phone number on speed dial though before I begin in case I have a bad reaction. :melodramatic:

ILove2Lurk

PS: And welcome back "face." :eyeroll: We've all missed you.

The words 'disseminate' or 'disseminating' or dissemination' always sat ill with me, and caused me to cringe inwardly with distaste. They still do to a small degree. I always saw it as being sneaky behaviour, designed to trick somebody into doing something that they didn't want to do. I can honestly say that I never even once, tried to do any dissemination. As paying publicly only, I was able to get away with it. Selah.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Speaking of Marty's book, does anybody know how much the book is gonna run? Anybody heard yet? Will it be a $7.99 "humbly tendered to man" kindle/ebook :unsure: or a $34.95 "solution to inflation" thin hardback. :omg:


:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Or....

The Super-Upstat's, Premier, Leather-Bound Limited Edition of the Very Special VIP Briefing on the Ultimate Truth About Scientology Technology: In this rare, autographed historical-value, collector's unexpurgated version, Marty will reveal never-before-discovered facts which will illuminate the previously hidden data line about why the tech that works did not work, and what you can do to avail yourself of this priceless technology that always works 100% of the time. Person's CSWing for okay to purchase this priceless volume will be required to sign a confidentiality bond regarding the priceless data and the priceless price.

[HelluvaHoax!]

The words 'disseminate' or 'disseminating' or dissemination' always sat ill with me, and caused me to cringe inwardly with distaste. They still do to a small degree. I always saw it as being sneaky behaviour, designed to trick somebody into doing something that they didn't want to do. I can honestly say that I never even once, tried to do any dissemination. As paying publicly only, I was able to get away with it. Selah.



Honest to God, I never, ever understood why Scientologists went to "Special VIP Briefings" when they knew damn well that they were going to be gang-regged.

I just don't get it at all!

What were they thinking?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Honest to God, I never, ever understood why Scientologists went to "Special VIP Briefings" when they knew damn well that they were going to be gang-regged.

I just don't get it at all!

What were they thinking?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They thought they would somehow be "in the know."

Instead they ended up "out of the dough."

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Vittorio]

What we can draw from this thread is the following;

- Bill himself may be a character with big flaws, even if much of what he say's rings true

- The truth behind the nasty behavior in Scientology is always going to be a convoluted issue due to the fact that many ex-s were collaborators in that behavior

Let's hope that all involved, me included find the humility to bring pride and dignity back into people's lives and that doing good for people and the world around comes above any more hostile, violent or degrading behavior.

[Operating DB]

The words 'disseminate' or 'disseminating' or dissemination' always sat ill with me, and caused me to cringe inwardly with distaste. They still do to a small degree. I always saw it as being sneaky behaviour, designed to trick somebody into doing something that they didn't want to do. I can honestly say that I never even once, tried to do any dissemination. As paying publicly only, I was able to get away with it. Selah.


I felt the same way. I like your description of disseminating as feeling like sneaky behavior. That's how it felt to me and consequently I refrained from that sneakily disseminating behavior. It somehow felt dishonest to me.

The other hot button I encountered a few posts back was the monthly 10% price increases starting in 1976. Gawd, did I hate that. I remember the feeling of panic and anxiety and pressure of trying to buy services now before the next price increase. And everything was already overpriced even before the price increases started!

scientology: what a rip-off!

I've often thought of starting a work-in-progress list of all the red flags and other discomforting things and things that did not seem right that I encountered on my road to total freedom just to have them all contained in one spot something like a Pandoras Box.

[JustMe]

It was Hubbard who decided to go into hiding, and it was he who decided to throw his wife under the bus, redefine 'Clear', elevate Dianetics, and butcher the middle Grade Chart for PR and marketing reasons, and it was Hubbard who decided to loot the Missions.

No doubt, Miscavige had his ear, but Hubbard was making the decisions, and it was Hubbard who could have gone anywhere he wished, and talked to anyone he wished. Instead, the author of the Tone Scale, decided to make David Miscavige his number one henchman.

Hubbard was not senile, he was not bedridden. He could pick up a telephone and talk to anyone. He was not, as some outside the CofS Scientologists have insisted, "under virtual house arrest."

It was Hubbard who wrote the Fair Game Law, that condoned first degree murder, in March 1965. It was Hubbard who, in 1967, wrote of how Scientology should operate as a ruthless "tight conspiracy." It was Hubbard who plotted to destroy a 100 lb woman's life because she wrote a little paperback book that he didn't like.

The Hubbard of 1980 was not much different from the 1970 Hubbard.

Hubbard knew he was getting old and time was running out, and he decided that it was time to "call in the chits." First, prices were raised monthly (which started in 1976), then the Grade Chart was changed around (1978 - 1981) to increase the flow of money up lines, ultimately to Hubbard, and then the Missions were looted.

It was Hubbard who placed the CMO over the GO, thus pulling the rug out from under his wife, who was, let's keep in mind, about to go to federal prison for the commission of felonies - felonies that her husband had masterminded.

Other posts on this thread describe this period, and Hubbard's paranoia and ruthlessness, and his desire to conceal his control of Scientology for his own protection.


From Larry Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

(Press "Control" and then "F" to find key words or dates, such as 1983.)

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1


By the way, two other cult leaders, around the same time, were sentenced to federal prison for breaking the law...

Lyndon LaRouche, who was sentenced to prison for mail fraud and tax violations, and continued to run his organization while serving his sentence. He was eventually released from prison, and continues to lead his organization at age 89.

Then there's Sun Myung Moon, another cult leader, who was sent to prison for income tax fraud and conspiracy. He continued to run his organization from inside prison, and was eventually released, and continues as leader of his organization at age 92.

Hubbard let his wife take the rap for his crimes, and ran away and hid - all the while making sure that the cash flow, and his monuments-to-himself projects, continued.

Well put, agreed.

[Gadfly]

Honest to God, I never, ever understood why Scientologists went to "Special VIP Briefings" when they knew damn well that they were going to be gang-regged.

I just don't get it at all!

What were they thinking?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know about you but I avoided "special briefings" like the plague.

I lived in Clearwater for many years as a public, and I would simply NEVER go to any. They would sometimes show up at my home at 8 pm on Wednesday evening to try to reg me, but if at all possible, I would just pretend that I wasn't home and not answer the door.

I did do my best to stay on the "edge" as far as possible. My kids were in the Sea Org, so I didn't want to upset that relationship. But also, I had my own (wog) business, I didn't work with any Scios though I did some work for some Scios, I dated non-Scientologists, and I had a life very much outside of Scientology. I liked it that way. I did do services from time to time, usually part time on the week-end. Also, I got suckered into working for CCHR for awhile as a part of "OT Eligibility".

On staying away, the same with events. At Flag they would conduct an "all-hands", with staff blocking EVERY exit, and with reg tables set up. They would have staff assigned the job of routing various public to the regges. They even had staff there during the event looking over the crowd, and making lists of WHO were the "most qualified" (i.e. had the most money). Then these lists would be given to the bodyrouters, making sure that the respective routers could easily recognize the public. It was all conducted with "tight 8C". Control, control, control.

And, I hated it with a passion. I would either not go at all, which was usually the case, or figure out a way to get past the guards. Sometimes I would just say, "no, I don't have any money, go find somebody else" (with excellent TR0 and calm delivery). Oh also, because my kids were in the Cadet Org for many years, and I knew the staff at the Cadet Org, I often volunteered to watch the kids so that the SO staff in the Cadet Org could attend the events. That gave me even MORE time with own kids, and it gave me a "legitimate excuse" to NOT attend the event. It was a win-win situation for me. :happydance:

I remember when I was on FSO staff (mid-1980s), and the FSO public would be herded into some briefing in the auditorium. It was those crazy IAS briefings where some Sea Org member would force public to stand up, walk up to the stage, and postulate some stupid donation.

Or, they would do the same thing with recruitment. The Sea Org member would walk up and down the isles, stand at the edge, look down the row, YELL out a name, and say "Bob, when are YOU going to join the Sea Org and do your part to clean up this sector"? Talk about "cringe-worthy" moments! :duh:

[Gadfly]

The words 'disseminate' or 'disseminating' or dissemination' always sat ill with me, and caused me to cringe inwardly with distaste. They still do to a small degree. I always saw it as being sneaky behaviour, designed to trick somebody into doing something that they didn't want to do. I can honestly say that I never even once, tried to do any dissemination. As paying publicly only, I was able to get away with it. Selah.


I detested dissemination. While in the Sea Org they forced me onto a reg post for awhile, but I failed miserably. I had no interest in doing it, couldn't and wouldn't do it.

My "certainty" was NEVER 100%, and I couldn't pretend it to be otherwise. The staff who came on hard and heavy with "this is the way", with that dedicated glare and Tone 40 certainty always rubbed me the wrong way. To me they seemed just like any other over-the-top fanatical overly-religious person.

To me "dissemination" was just another word for "proselytizing" or "evangelism". In any form, I couldn't stomach such behaviors.

[JustMe]

For me this is the most puzzling aspect of that particular era. I guess we'll have to "follow the money." Refresh my memory. Does anybody remember how much was in the estate and where the bulk of it went? Do we know?

I guess all that might be in Marty's new book so I could wait and find out very soon.............

Marty was not involved with the $40Million transferred to Hubbard in 1982. Marty was handling litigation matters as part of Special Unit during that time.

It was Author Services that was dreaming up signifances every week and ordering that the million dollars or so that week be transferred to Hubbard from organized scientology accounts.

As an example, for one week's money, Fran Harris from Author Services would have these little one page "treatments" saying what the next little training or dissemination film would cover. She would say that LRH wrote them but actually any idiot could have, they were so bad. Then Miscavige would order that LRH be paid tens of thousands of dollars for each treatment. He would justify that others got that much as if some stupid one page summary of a scientology film was worth sums equal to or even more than what someone would have gotten for a treatment for Star Wars.

Later in the 1990s Miscavige made a legal declaration that Author Services was negotiating with the "church" on behalf of Hubbard. Nothing could be further from the truth. Both Lyman Spurlock at Author Services and Larry Brennan at Special Unit were trying to get the insane amounts to Hubbard each week stopped but to no avail, Miscavige ordered it sent no matter what.

This was covered in Homer Schomer's testimony in the Cristofferson suit, in an affidavit from Hana Witfield and in Larry Brennan's free ebook "The Miscavige Legal Statements: A Study in Perjury, Lies and Misdirection".

Marty had nothing to do with this back then. He was not involved.

FWIW I do not think that all the millions Hubbard took from the church was in any way based in logic. He had a history of greed and lies and trying to get money under false pretenses. Personally I believe he was insane, not wanting others to get "his" money, being willing to destroy others to get money he did not even need and did not deserve and the like.

[Dulloldfart]

FWIW I do not think that all the millions Hubbard took from the church was in any way based in logic. He had a history of greed and lies and trying to get money under false pretenses. Personally I believe he was insane, not wanting others to get "his" money, being willing to destroy others to get money he did not even need and did not deserve and the like.

Have you got any idea what happened to all that money, Denise? He surely couldn't have spent it all, and it didn't show up in his estate after he had shuffled off his mortal boil.

Paul

[Mick Wenlock]

In 1981 when i was the programs manager for NEPI at FOLO EU Franny and her merry little band switched $27M through NEPs danish krone domestic Account - in and out. And moved the value of the DKr on the european market. Lena got a visit from the officials from the Danish Central Bank asking what the hell they were doing.



Marty was not involved with the $40Million transferred to Hubbard in 1982. Marty was handling litigation matters as part of Special Unit during that time.

It was Author Services that was dreaming up signifances every week and ordering that the million dollars or so that week be transferred to Hubbard from organized scientology accounts.

As an example, for one week's money, Fran Harris from Author Services would have these little one page "treatments" saying what the next little training or dissemination film would cover. She would say that LRH wrote them but actually any idiot could have, they were so bad. Then Miscavige would order that LRH be paid tens of thousands of dollars for each treatment. He would justify that others got that much as if some stupid one page summary of a scientology film was worth sums equal to or even more than what someone would have gotten for a treatment for Star Wars.

Later in the 1990s Miscavige made a legal declaration that Author Services was negotiating with the "church" on behalf of Hubbard. Nothing could be further from the truth. Both Lyman Spurlock at Author Services and Larry Brennan at Special Unit were trying to get the insane amounts to Hubbard each week stopped but to no avail, Miscavige ordered it sent no matter what.

This was covered in Homer Schomer's testimony in the Cristofferson suit, in an affidavit from Hana Witfield and in Larry Brennan's free ebook "The Miscavige Legal Statements: A Study in Perjury, Lies and Misdirection".

Marty had nothing to do with this back then. He was not involved.

FWIW I do not think that all the millions Hubbard took from the church was in any way based in logic. He had a history of greed and lies and trying to get money under false pretenses. Personally I believe he was insane, not wanting others to get "his" money, being willing to destroy others to get money he did not even need and did not deserve and the like.

[AnonyMary]

Marty was not involved with the $40Million transferred to Hubbard in 1982. Marty was handling litigation matters as part of Special Unit during that time.

It was Author Services that was dreaming up signifances every week and ordering that the million dollars or so that week be transferred to Hubbard from organized scientology accounts.

As an example, for one week's money, Fran Harris from Author Services would have these little one page "treatments" saying what the next little training or dissemination film would cover. She would say that LRH wrote them but actually any idiot could have, they were so bad. Then Miscavige would order that LRH be paid tens of thousands of dollars for each treatment. He would justify that others got that much as if some stupid one page summary of a scientology film was worth sums equal to or even more than what someone would have gotten for a treatment for Star Wars.

Later in the 1990s Miscavige made a legal declaration that Author Services was negotiating with the "church" on behalf of Hubbard. Nothing could be further from the truth. Both Lyman Spurlock at Author Services and Larry Brennan at Special Unit were trying to get the insane amounts to Hubbard each week stopped but to no avail, Miscavige ordered it sent no matter what.

This was covered in Homer Schomer's testimony in the Cristofferson suit, in an affidavit from Hana Witfield and in Larry Brennan's free ebook "The Miscavige Legal Statements: A Study in Perjury, Lies and Misdirection".

Marty had nothing to do with this back then. He was not involved.

FWIW I do not think that all the millions Hubbard took from the church was in any way based in logic. He had a history of greed and lies and trying to get money under false pretenses. Personally I believe he was insane, not wanting others to get "his" money, being willing to destroy others to get money he did not even need and did not deserve and the like.

Lest people forget, during the 1981-1982 period discussed here, nearly every org in the USA lacked money to pay staff . I remember the orgs had a dark and nearly empty presence about them.....CCINT,ASHO and AOLA actually being without toilet paper on many occasions back then. :omg: This was before Int Finance came and raped the public!

[Dulloldfart]

In 1981 when i was the programs manager for NEPI at FOLO EU Franny and her merry little band switched $27M through NEPs danish krone domestic Account - in and out. And moved the value of the DKr on the european market. Lena got a visit from the officials from the Danish Central Bank asking what the hell they were doing.

I used to sup some of the ASI staff at ITO in the early 90s. One day in the courseroom I was chatting to Frannie Harris (rare) and she commented on forcing some US orgs to buy huge book stocks they didn't need by signing cheques on their book accounts. She spoke of it as an overt she had committed on them and was a bit concerned about it. I forget which orgs, but it involved Bridge.

Dunno who got the big book bonuses on that, but the cross-corporation irregularities of that sort of thing will hopefully eventually see the light of day.

Paul

[PirateAndBum]

Lest people forget, during the 1981-1982 period discussed here, nearly every org in the USA lacked money to pay staff . I remember the orgs had a dark and nearly empty presence about them.....CCINT,ASHO and AOLA actually being without toilet paper on many occasions back then. :omg: This was before Int Finance came and raped the public!

CL V orgs in East US seemed to have had that problem from at least 1981 to 2012

Let see in the winter of 84 I think DC Org was being heated using space heaters. Keeping the phones on was often worry as well.

[HelluvaHoax!]

I don't know about you but I avoided "special briefings" like the plague.

I lived in Clearwater for many years as a public, and I would simply NEVER go to any. They would sometimes show up at my home at 8 pm on Wednesday evening to try to reg me, but if at all possible, I would just pretend that I wasn't home and not answer the door.

I did do my best to stay on the "edge" as far as possible. My kids were in the Sea Org, so I didn't want to upset that relationship. But also, I had my own (wog) business, I didn't work with any Scios though I did some work for some Scios, I dated non-Scientologists, and I had a life very much outside of Scientology. I liked it that way. I did do services from time to time, usually part time on the week-end. Also, I got suckered into working for CCHR for awhile as a part of "OT Eligibility".

On staying away, the same with events. At Flag they would conduct an "all-hands", with staff blocking EVERY exit, and with reg tables set up. They would have staff assigned the job of routing various public to the regges. They even had staff there during the event looking over the crowd, and making lists of WHO were the "most qualified" (i.e. had the most money). Then these lists would be given to the bodyrouters, making sure that the respective routers could easily recognize the public. It was all conducted with "tight 8C". Control, control, control.

And, I hated it with a passion. I would either not go at all, which was usually the case, or figure out a way to get past the guards. Sometimes I would just say, "no, I don't have any money, go find somebody else" (with excellent TR0 and calm delivery). Oh also, because my kids were in the Cadet Org for many years, and I knew the staff at the Cadet Org, I often volunteered to watch the kids so that the SO staff in the Cadet Org could attend the events. That gave me even MORE time with own kids, and it gave me a "legitimate excuse" to NOT attend the event. It was a win-win situation for me. :happydance:

I remember when I was on FSO staff (mid-1980s), and the FSO public would be herded into some briefing in the auditorium. It was those crazy IAS briefings where some Sea Org member would force public to stand up, walk up to the stage, and postulate some stupid donation.

Or, they would do the same thing with recruitment. The Sea Org member would walk up and down the isles, stand at the edge, look down the row, YELL out a name, and say "Bob, when are YOU going to join the Sea Org and do your part to clean up this sector"? Talk about "cringe-worthy" moments! :duh:


I went to exactly one (1) Special VIP briefing, invited by a celeb actor. When they tricked my ass and turned it into a hard-sell reg event where people started being called up on the stage when they committed money I foresaw the ugly ending coming with everyone up on stage except for me still seated. LOL. So after a couple people were called up to stand and face the audience, I got up and left.

A Sea Org member literally chased me down outside (a distance away) and told me I had to go back in the event. I told him I wasn't going in the event and as it heated up, the celeb ran up to us and "r-factored" Ron's money policeman that I was their "special guest". So the SO freak backed off immediately.

That was it for me.

When I heard that there was a mandatory "crusade" up in the NW I just ignored it. When there were other mandatory briefings I ignored them, including the Ron is Dead event.

One thing I learned for certain, Scientologists can be counted on to lie, lie lie and lie. You can't go wrong by assuming they are lying.

And I am a "product" of Scientology and Flag. That is their actual product, a person who knows they are liars, cheats and frauds. Nice.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Lest people forget, during the 1981-1982 period discussed here, nearly every org in the USA lacked money to pay staff . I remember the orgs had a dark and nearly empty presence about them.....CCINT,ASHO and AOLA actually being without toilet paper on many occasions back then. :omg: This was before Int Finance came and raped the public!


It's okay. It's on Ron's admin scale.


A world without insanity.
A world without war.
A world without criminality.
A world without toilet paper.

[JustMe]

Have you got any idea what happened to all that money, Denise? He surely couldn't have spent it all, and it didn't show up in his estate after he had shuffled off his mortal boil.

Paul

Hi Paul:)

I really have no first hand information. I left staff in early 1984. The only information I got about the money after Hubbard died was from affidavits in different cases, in their IRS submissions of the early 1990s and in various postings of others on the internet.

Nothing first hand.

[JustMe]

Lest people forget, during the 1981-1982 period discussed here, nearly every org in the USA lacked money to pay staff . I remember the orgs had a dark and nearly empty presence about them.....CCINT,ASHO and AOLA actually being without toilet paper on many occasions back then. :omg: This was before Int Finance came and raped the public!

Sad but so very true Mary.

ANd I remember Hubbard telling all of us on Watchdog Committee in 1982 and 1983 to get all possible money out of the orgs before they could spend it. Millions and millions to Hubbard while staff starved, they could not properly care for their own children, no medical, dental, you name it :( And yet so many seem to almost deify the man.

[JustMe]

In 1981 when i was the programs manager for NEPI at FOLO EU Franny and her merry little band switched $27M through NEPs danish krone domestic Account - in and out. And moved the value of the DKr on the european market. Lena got a visit from the officials from the Danish Central Bank asking what the hell they were doing.

Just amazing huh Mick. What a scam it all was. So many wonderful people were betrayed by Hubbard and those who did his bidding.

[Gadfly]

It's okay. It's on Ron's admin scale.


A world without insanity.
A world without war.
A world without criminality.
A world without toilet paper.

:hysterical:

At every point during my stint in Scientology, whether 1986 or 1976, or anywhere in between, there was NEVER any toilet paper! :duh:

I used to have "my own private stash", and kept it under tight security, so that I would always have it available (for me).

That is especially absurd when one considers how much cash Hubbard was "skimming off the top".

[Mick Wenlock]

Just amazing huh Mick. What a scam it all was. So many wonderful people were betrayed by Hubbard and those who did his bidding.

It is frightening in a lot of ways. People did things without thought of the consequences, even in the most mundane of things.

The CofS AOSH EU paid organized crime in Milan to smuggle cash to Switzerland via speed boat across lake Como - never a concept that it might, perhaps, result in criminal charges

[Sindy]

:hysterical:

At every point during my stint in Scientology, whether 1986 or 1976, or anywhere in between, there was NEVER any toilet paper! :duh:

I used to have "my own private stash", and kept it under tight security, so that I would always have it available (for me).

That is especially absurd when one considers how much cash Hubbard was "skimming off the top".

"Scientology: Where assholes don't need toilet paper."

[HelluvaHoax!]

:hysterical:

At every point during my stint in Scientology, whether 1986 or 1976, or anywhere in between, there was NEVER any toilet paper! :duh:

I used to have "my own private stash", and kept it under tight security, so that I would always have it available (for me).

That is especially absurd when one considers how much cash Hubbard was "skimming off the top".


Here is proof that Scientology is a mind-control cult. . .

If Hubbard had written an HCOPL stating that his research discovered that staff and public are consuming org supplies disproportionately to Gross Income--and that HCO should post a printed sign in all org areas where supplies are unmonitored, saying:


We are Clearing the Planet.
Supplies are for upstats.
DO NOT GO OUT EXCHANGE.

In that case, HCO would promptly post those little placards all over the org, per Command Intention, including next to the toilet paper roll in each restroom stall.

And, I can f*cking guarantee you that the auditing PC folders of staff and public would soon start being populated with people getting off their out ethics, overts & withholds on using too much toilet paper. And it would read on the meter. And go earlier similar to FN.

If you think this is only a joke, you were not paying any attention at all while you were in Scientology. Or you are still a Scientologist.

[Operating DB]

"Scientology: Where assholes don't need toilet paper."

May I amend the above?

"Scientology: where dirty assholes don't need toilet paper."

[Sindy]

Here is proof that Scientology is a mind-control cult. . .

If Hubbard had written an HCOPL stating that his research discovered that staff and public are consuming org supplies disproportionately to Gross Income--and that HCO should post a printed sign in all org areas where supplies are unmonitored, saying:


We are Clearing the Planet.
Supplies are for upstats.
DO NOT GO OUT EXCHANGE.

In that case, HCO would promptly post those little placards all over the org, per Command Intention, including next to the toilet paper roll in each restroom stall.

And, I can f*cking guarantee you that the auditing PC folders of staff and public would soon start being populated with people getting off their out ethics, overts & withholds on using too much toilet paper. And it would read on the meter. And go earlier similar to FN.

If you think this is only a joke, you were not paying any attention at all while you were in Scientology. Or you are still a Scientologist.

True story:

One day in the Chicago Org it was discovered that someone went into the bathroom, after doing a clay demo and wiped her hands all over the white curtain hanging over the dingy bathroom window in the dilapidated upstairs academy bathroom.

So, this white curtain had reddish-greenish clay hand prints all over it, all wrinkled and crumpled up. The staff were outraged! It became a huge whispering event where people were wondering who the hell would wipe their hands on the curtain in the academy. Were they brought up in a barn?

Anyway, the woman finally confessed to doing it and I believe had to do conditions. This woman was a Chiropractor (beautiful knock out of a woman) that got in through the WISE lines.

Now how insane is that? :laugh::screwy:

[Stat]

ED in my org would always make sure there are paper towels and toilet paper in every bathroom (even when staff wasn't paid). It's a PR world, you know.

[Dulloldfart]

It's okay. It's on Ron's admin scale.


A world without insanity.
A world without war.
A world without criminality.
A world without toilet paper.

That was really funny, Hoaxie. It must be a button with many long-term exes who endured that little annoyance year in year out.

Paul

[CarmeloOrchards]

ED in my org would always make sure there are paper towels and toilet paper in every bathroom (even when staff wasn't paid). It's a PR world, you know.

Jeanne remembered it from ASHO on W. Temple St. in 1969

[HelluvaHoax!]

That was really funny, Hoaxie. It must be a button with many long-term exes who endured that little annoyance year in year out.

Paul


Thanks!

There is something diabolically divine about the utter bathos of an entire salvation navy of supernatural Operating Thetans--armed with the technology that is delivering total freedom to all beings in the universe for eternity--yet is powerless to deliver a piece of toilet paper to customers who pay a half million dollars.

[Hatshepsut]

Thanks!

There is something diabolically divine about the utter bathos of an entire salvation navy of supernatural Operating Thetans--armed with the technology that is delivering total freedom to all beings in the universe for eternity--yet is powerless to deliver a piece of toilet paper to customers who pay a half million dollars.

This rationing of toilet paper amongst those promising 'freedom' is prevalent. We have to make do with the materials we have.

http://ptmartinez.com/http://ptmartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/toilet-paper-constitution.jpg

[HelluvaHoax!]

This rationing of toilet paper amongst those promising freedom is quite prevalent. We have to make do with the materials we have.



I believe it is forbidden by LRH policy to ask for toilet paper, because that is: "having to have before you can doo doo."

[Hatshepsut]

We are Clearing the Planet.
Supplies are for upstats.
DO NOT GO OUT EXCHANGE.

In that case, HCO would promptly post those little placards all over the org, per Command Intention, including next to the toilet paper roll in each restroom stall.
.


Super Upstats' bathroom

:happydance:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/SspW5WJGXHI/AAAAAAAABt8/f1gptBurkzQ/s400/toilet-paper-toilet.jpg

[Hatshepsut]

Love bathroom humor.

[HelluvaHoax!]

Love bathroom humor.



Ron has a policy for everything. . .


http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy357/bankofphotos/toilet-paper-toilet-1-1-1.jpg

[Gadfly]

Thanks!

There is something diabolically divine about the utter bathos of an entire salvation navy of supernatural Operating Thetans--armed with the technology that is delivering total freedom to all beings in the universe for eternity--yet is powerless to deliver a piece of toilet paper to customers who pay a half million dollars.

Cause over matter, energy, space and time?

Right, they can't even manage ti be cause over fecal matter, stool energy, odorous space, and excrements over time.

I wonder what the OT Level is where they will finally gain the ability to be:

cause over splatter, dysentenergy, waste and slime . . . . :confused2:

[Gadfly]

Know what I love about ESMB?

How a serious thread can be started about a serious subject like Bill Franks and angry offended Scientologists, and it how turns into PAGES and PAGES about toilet paper, bathrooms, and SHIT.

Oh wait, then it is quite relevant and germane, because the derail actually still is about Scientology (aka "shit")! :duh: :biggrin:

[Boojuum]

snip...

The other hot button I encountered a few posts back was the monthly 10% price increases starting in 1976. Gawd, did I hate that. I remember the feeling of panic and anxiety and pressure of trying to buy services now before the next price increase. And everything was already overpriced even before the price increases started!

scientology: what a rip-off!

I've often thought of starting a work-in-progress list of all the red flags and other discomforting things and things that did not seem right that I encountered on my road to total freedom just to have them all contained in one spot something like a Pandoras Box.

Speaking of the 10% monthly increase, solution to inflation: Think of it this way, it made Scientology LESS AVAILABLE to staff and public. I forget what the original price was in the 70's-around $1000 for an intensive and by '79 it was something like $6000. This really meant that the only people getting through the Drug Rundown and Grade IV or OT had to be pretty well off or capable of borrowing huge sums of money. A typical Scieno really didn't get to experience much Scientology auditing aside from MAYBE objectives or SA Lists unless you had dough. ALL the scienos I knew who were in from the 60's or earlier experienced auditing and gains and wins. The majority of Scieno's I knew who got in after '77 typically did training or joined staff or the SO and yearned for auditing that typically came in the form of confessional or repair.

My point is that if LRH believed in Scientology, he would have done everything possible to get people up the bridge, even reducing prices. Staff and public would be MORE capable of booming his organization. Since Ron took the opposite approach, in retrospect, it's another bit of proof that LRH was in it for the money.

This probably belongs on another thread, but here it is anyway.

[Gadfly]

My point is that if LRH believed in Scientology, he would have done everything possible to get people up the bridge, even reducing prices. Staff and public would be MORE capable of booming his organization. Since Ron took the opposite approach, in retrospect, it's another bit of proof that LRH was in it for the money.

I agree. That point always stuck at me.

If Scientology were actually able to do all that it claimed, then it would have been FREE.

If it could solve all of Man's personal problems of the mind and emotions (as Hubbard claimed it could do), if it could solve all the problems of any organization (as Hubbard claimed it could do), if it could deliver "total freedom" (as Hubbard claimed it could do), and if it could bring about a world without war, crime and insanity (as Hubbard claimed it could do), then OF COURSE, be a truly BIG BEING, and GIVE IT AWAY!

Of course, in truth, it was never about any of those things to Hubbard (those things were PR) - it was only about the money (and ego).

[Operating DB]

Ron has a policy for everything. . .


http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy357/bankofphotos/toilet-paper-toilet-1-1-1.jpg

LOVE IT!!!

Shouldn't that pic of hubbard be at the bottom of the toilet bowl?

[Smilla]

It's important to the Cof$ that no Clears or OT's should ever be made, because the first thing they would do is walk out of the door and never come back.

[Mimsey Borogrove]

HEY!!! Stop maligning the orgs and OT's - it says cause over MEST, NOT cause over MESTP!

Mimsey

[HelluvaHoax!]

Speaking of the 10% monthly increase, solution to inflation: Think of it this way, it made Scientology LESS AVAILABLE to staff and public. I forget what the original price was in the 70's-around $1000 for an intensive and by '79 it was something like $6000. This really meant that the only people getting through the Drug Rundown and Grade IV or OT had to be pretty well off or capable of borrowing huge sums of money. A typical Scieno really didn't get to experience much Scientology auditing aside from MAYBE objectives or SA Lists unless you had dough. ALL the scienos I knew who were in from the 60's or earlier experienced auditing and gains and wins. The majority of Scieno's I knew who got in after '77 typically did training or joined staff or the SO and yearned for auditing that typically came in the form of confessional or repair.

My point is that if LRH believed in Scientology, he would have done everything possible to get people up the bridge, even reducing prices. Staff and public would be MORE capable of booming his organization. Since Ron took the opposite approach, in retrospect, it's another bit of proof that LRH was in it for the money.


A really excellent point! And, if anything in Scientology ever qualified as confidential Advanced Level materials, it wouldn't be OT III, it would be exactly what you said. That, in fact, is a far bigger secret than Xenu and his body thetans ever was.

If one had any doubt about this and were to do Hubbard's own formula ("...brushing aside all bias and rumor.") all one would need do is LOOK AT STAFF MEMBERS WORLDWIDE. Just walk in any org and begin asking long-term staff members where they are on the Grade Chart.

Within a few moments, it would become painfully obvious that staff member (the most dedicated, ethical and productive Scientologists) have no time for Scientology Clearing and OT levels. They can't even achieve the purpose of Scientology within their own org walls. They can't even realize the goal of Scientology within themselves. Yet they are trampling, spying on, committing crimes against and fair gaming others because it is supposedly so vital and such "a deadly serious activity" to make OTs.

But Scientologists are not clearing the planet or anyone at all. They are grabbing money for cult leaders.

Some words quickly come to mind: Pretense. Hypocritical. Fraud.

It took me a long time to really, fully understand the simplicity that Scientology is a complete hoax. It was a more valuable cognition than any I ever had while in Scientology.

[HelluvaHoax!]

It's important to the Cof$ that no Clears or OT's should ever be made, because the first thing they would do is walk out of the door and never come back.


:clapping::clapping::clapping: deliciously diabolical....and true! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

[Gadfly]

It's important to the Cof$ that no Clears or OT's should ever be made, because the first thing they would do is walk out of the door and never come back.


:clapping::clapping::clapping: deliciously diabolical....and true! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

Well, even WAY BEFORE anyone makes it to Clear or OT, if Scientology actually delivered any sort of REAL UNDERSTANDING, those involved would understand that Hubbard and Scientolgy were complete nonsense - and run away as quickly as possible.

But, they don't turn and run, so obviously, there is no sort of valid "understanding" being produced as a result of involvement with Scientology.

If one were actually becoming "more aware", one would be aware that Hubbard was a fraud, a con artist, and a pretty nasty human being (or "tulpa" - Mystic, come back), and that the Church of Scientology was a money-grubbing business pretending to be a religion.

If anyone's abilities to observe were increasing, well, just follow the same arguments.

If one were in TRUE honest communication with the subjects of Hubbard and Scientology, the affinity (A) would go DOWN, agreement (R) with MANY ideas would GO DOWN, while communication about the negative aspects might well go UP.

The resultant understanding would be largely that THIS SUCKS! :ohmy:

Disclaimer (especially to TAJ): I don't support the idea that ARC=U, and I am only using the above ideas to possibly make contact with any readers who still accept and believe such idiocy.

[guanoloco]

It's okay. It's on Ron's admin scale.


A world without insanity.
A world without war.
A world without criminality.
A world without toilet paper.

And a world full of shit! The real product of Scientology.

[Mark A. Baker]

Well, even WAY BEFORE anyone makes it to Clear or OT, if Scientology actually delivered any sort of REAL UNDERSTANDING, those involved would understand that Hubbard and Scientolgy were complete nonsense - and run away as quickly as possible.

But, they don't turn and run, so obviously, there is no sort of valid "understanding" being produced as a result of involvement with Scientology. ...

Actually by my reckoning quite a few have, thus contradicting the main point of your thesis.


Mark A. Baker :yes:

[Gadfly]

Actually by my reckoning quite a few have, thus contradicting the main point of your thesis.

Mark A. Baker :yes:

"Thesis"? Mark, this isn't a classroom, and I am not presenting a dissertation on Scientology for a graduate degree. :duh:

I contradict myself? Not at all. Just because two things occur in close proximity does NOT mean that they are causally connected or even related.

Many people, while they are involved with Scientology, come to eventually notice, grasp, understand and become aware of the MANY horrendous contradictions and "outpoints". This does not at all mean or indicate that their improved understanding was due to ANY aspect of Scientology processing, training or techniques.

As any person gets more familiar with ANYTHING, over extended periods of time, that contact alone enables a better and deeper understanding. The person's level of awareness or ability to understand need not change in any way. The ONLY thing that has truly changed is that the person, especially over extended periods of time, has accumulated a wider range of perceptions, observations and experiences to draw from. It is quite simple really. :yes:

I did lots of Scientology auditing and training, but I have ALWAYS had a very good ability to see what is in front of my face. I have always had a high regard for "truth" and "honesty". What I came to see about the flaws of Hubbard and Scientology in terms of my ability to observe occurred very much DESPITE the influences of any supposed Scientology "tech" that claimed to heighten my awareness, and not "because of it".

I am talking here Mark about what can be observed, and NOT about what trickery some try to slip on others through "games of reason" and "logic".

I am sure that many people who have left the Church of Scientology have done so as they came to see more and more bullshit. That their "ability to observe the bullshit" had anything much to do with "increased awareness gained from Scientology" rather than with "extended direct experiences accumulated over time" is BULLSHIT.

[ClearEyed]

I really don't get it, how some people refuse to just face what is right there in front of their faces.

I simply opened my eyes and looked. I did what LRH encouraged, and had it be true for me what I myself observed. It was pretty simple. Of course, I have never really liked groups in general, and haven't had much of any interest in being part of one. I suppose I am basically "anti-social". :ohmy:

First, there is LRH policy. Second, various people "apply" this LRH policy. Third, every bit of nastiness, lies, deception, abuse, and manipulation that follows stem directly from the previous two points.

It is so simple to see - unless of course one prefers to see some IDEA or imaginary fiction instead of reality. And, of course, some people ONLY USE the fiction to manipulate and control others.

It is funny to watch really, how these Scientology true-believers struggle to maintain their delusions. How they deny and refuse to look at any FACT that will disrupt thier fantasies about Hubbard and Scientology.

What they do and how they do it is explained in Hoffer's The True Believer, and in many other books about mind control, advertising, behavioral modification and mass movements.

Yeah, sure, this refusing to see what is going on right in front of your face exists in many people and groups, BUT it has been amazingly institutionalized into Hubbard's subject and practices.

LOL! I also had some LRH quotes in mind when I was deciding whether or not to leave. Specifically:

Code of Honor: Keep you Own Counsel
and that whole "What is true for you..." business.

Scientology is very much like the bible. It contains many contradictory ideas, and some that can be taken out of context and used towards a wide variety of purposes. You can find something in it to support any position you want to take. In the end, it's the morals and ethics that you developed way before you ever became involved in Scientology, along with your innate sense of fairness, and ability to maintain your inviduality that will determine what aspects of the "tech" and "policy" you chose to follow and apply.

Not everyone involved became a martinent or robotic follower. Not everyone compromised their basic values. And of those who did, many woke up at some point.

[ClearEyed]

Why would anyone not believe that tubs had thrown Mary Sue (and Jane




Kember and the other 9 GOWW staff) under a bus?


His interest in Mary Sue both while she was in gaol and then for the rest of her life was apparently not that of a loving (and grateful husband) ... she was immediately dumped, she was a down-stat because she got caught while carrying out his 007 wannabe infiltration orders!



The man was a complete bastard.


Love your avatar, and appreciate all your content. Just wish you'd use left hand justification which would make it much easier to read.

Just sayin

[ClearEyed]

Is this a typo for Ron Loving? A nickname? Someone else?

Paul

Maybe Tom Lovely, who was some sort of exec at FOLO WUS in the mid 1970s. Long since out.

[ClearEyed]

I have started to read this "essay" in the past, but I only can get through a few paragraphs before I start wretching and laughing uncontrollably.

It is THEATRE! And, very BAD theatre at that.

:puke2:

Marty, MARTY, you raving imbecile, HUBBARD was the original DICTATOR.

Hubbard is the model that Miscavige patterns himself after, and DM does a pretty good job of THAT. That explains why he is just a dick.

Hurt has ALWAYS come to those who would object.

There has ALWAYS been a hidden data line.

The Scientology organization, based on Hubbard's design, has ALWAYS wanted power and cash.

Status and greed have ALWAYS been paramount with Hubbard and his followers.

I could go on with the rest of the essay, but I haven't read it . . . .

Well here's the thing. Marty does not know this about Hubbard, because when Hubbard was alive, Marty was focusing all of his attention on Miscavige's nether regions.

[ClearEyed]

I get what TAJ is saying. I worked for Bill and yes, he could be a hard man. But once I got over my fear of him he was actually one of the better bosses I had in the SO. That was because he was smart, interesting and unafraid to acknowledge what he saw -- and I think he saw plenty. I didn't know him in the early years though his reputation as a hard product officer was well known around Flag. I'm not defending him but rather putting a different view out there; we were all under the gun and we all reacted in ways we might be ashamed of, but that's not the whole story for Bill or for anyone else.

My thought was that Bill had a sort of epiphany when he was appointed ED Int. Do you remember his speech at the assembly where his appointment was announced? It was sort of like a salvation show testification. He admitted he'd been driven by his Marine Corps persona and now had different goals. I know he knew he had been intimidating. In my personal experience, he was trying to be more accessible and humane. I must admit I was not very close to him, but from what I could see, I thought it was genuine.

[Smilla]

There are two Hubbards:

One is a real person who existed, who has a paper trail which allows people to find out what kind of a person he was. He was a liar, a cheat, a coward, and an abuser.

The other Hubbard is a ficticious 'great man' with all kinds of amazing achievments. All lies, poppycock, drivel. This Hubbard is the Hubbard that Hubbard wanted to be, but never could be. This is the Hubbard that Scientologists need him to be.

Oh NO! There's a third Hubbard now! LRH, the all-knowing OT, almost Godlike, best friend of mankind, who courageously explored the upper levels for us and gave us our eternity. This Hubbard is way beyond falsity. 'LRH' is nothing more than an advertising tool - a device.

LRH is Scientology's Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders, nothing more

[ClearEyed]

I thought I was the immature computer nerd. :grouch:

FWIW, I've met Michael in real life. Was I the only one who found any redeeming characteristics in him?

Mac

I have not met him IRL, but I have seen a different side of him from Mick's XSO group, when Mike first started posting there. He has gradually become more strident. I think Mike has a tendancy to want to protect the underdog. Or, rather, that which he perceives as being the underdog. I don't believe his time on Rathbun's blog has been helpful to him in any way whatsoever.

[ClearEyed]

True. Kind of reminds me of Andre Tabayoyon. Also ex-military, and was kind of like that too when he was in. Ran the RPF a lot.

Military basic training is designed to make young men more tractable to authority, and make identify with and want to become that authority figure.

[Smilla]

I have not met him IRL, but I have seen a different side of him from Mick's XSO group, when Mike first started posting there. He has gradually become more strident. I think Mike has a tendancy to want to protect the underdog. Or, rather, that which he perceives as being the underdog. I don't believe his time on Rathbun's blog has been helpful to him in any way whatsoever.

He is a member of a certain sub-set of Scientologists. These are the:

Self-Righteous Indignationists, who are always 'outraged' about this or that, demanding 'Dox' from people who gave an opinion not presented as fact, and arguing over the definitions of words that people are quite happilly using correctly. At his best he's a really sweet guy. At his worst, he's an irritating, noisy twerp.

[ClearEyed]

It is true that we all did things we should not have done in the name of Scientology.

I didn't know Franks apologized for the physical beatings and tortue.

I'm pretty certain that if Miscavige had put a cigarette out on a young girls' arm that some people on this board would go nuclear.

There is a difference between face-ripping and physical tortue and physical intimidation.

Of course, he doesn't act that way now that he's out of Scientology. He would go to prison if he did.

And my experience with Franks is enough to know that while he may put his cards on the table, he still has an ace up his sleeve.

My point is this: putting a cigarette out on a young girl is a little bit more than just ruthless product officering.

It is a sign of a particularly bad and vicious character.

And I think that people understand this.

And that phenomenon of befriending someone like this is the same phenomenon of people who are still in and defending Miscavige.

It's a human weakness; a weakness that kept some of us in Scientology long after we knew deep inside that there was something seriously wrong.

I do not believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Especially when that person is of the same nature as my enemy.

Our survival isn't at stake here.

Taking this guy into the fold discredits any idea that we are the good guys and the Church are the bad guys.

It just makes it a game of we are more expediate in their destruction than they are in ours.

If ever any of us surrendered our integrity while in the Church of Scientology, accepting Franks as a friend is doing it all over again.

The Anabaptist Jacques

You're accusing someone of crimes against a nameless victim, by name, on a public board, while keeping your own real name hidden.

I don't like it.

[ClearEyed]

You're distorting me. I say I don't care if his information is correct or not. That is not my issue.

My point is that the Bill Franks I know is a vicious, self-serving and manipulative individual.

I think it is foolish to trust him, even if some particular information he gives supports what you want to believe.

But that is up to each person to decide.

But as far as I am concerned, and I know that others that had similar expericences with Franks, I will never consider him a friend or utilize him for any purpose.

And if the people on this board do take him into the fold, then they are no different than Miscavige's followers or Ratburn followers.

You can't make the argument that you are for justice and truth if this guy is on your side.

You can only argue that you just want to outdo the Church, not do away with the evil.

The Anabaptist Jacques

"Take him into the fold" oh please. You now sound like a cult leader yourself. This is not a church group, it's a message board. If you had evidence that a young girl was burnt by anyone with a cigarette, it was your responsibility to report it to the proper authorities at the time. Not to posture about how you were going to be some big time vigalante hero and go beat him up with a baseball bat. Your moment to avenge the victim was 30 years ago, and you did not. By today's standards of justice, if that was a minor, and you knew about abuse and did not report, you could be prosecuted. Or maybe you mean "young woman" when you say young girl. Either way, I for one, do not take your word for anything and I will use my own discretion about who to read or not read. What I or anyone else here choses to believe, disbelieve or give credence to is not under your control. Doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same story. And furthermore, what you've posted here, even if true, does not mean that his reports about his experiences and observations are untrue.

[ClearEyed]

I detested dissemination. While in the Sea Org they forced me onto a reg post for awhile, but I failed miserably. I had no interest in doing it, couldn't and wouldn't do it.

My "certainty" was NEVER 100%, and I couldn't pretend it to be otherwise. The staff who came on hard and heavy with "this is the way", with that dedicated glare and Tone 40 certainty always rubbed me the wrong way. To me they seemed just like any other over-the-top fanatical overly-religious person.

To me "dissemination" was just another word for "proselytizing" or "evangelism". In any form, I couldn't stomach such behaviors.

If you think being a reg was hard, just be glad no one made you an SO Recruiter. Worst post ever!

[Petey C]

You're accusing someone of crimes against a nameless victim, by name, on a public board, while keeping your own real name hidden.

I don't like it.

Thanks ClearEyed, that is precisely how I see the thing. Well said.

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

"Take him into the fold" oh please. You now sound like a cult leader yourself. This is not a church group, it's a message board. If you had evidence that a young girl was burnt by anyone with a cigarette, it was your responsibility to report it to the proper authorities at the time. Not to posture about how you were going to be some big time vigalante hero and go beat him up with a baseball bat. Your moment to avenge the victim was 30 years ago, and you did not. By today's standards of justice, if that was a minor, and you knew about abuse and did not report, you could be prosecuted. Or maybe you mean "young woman" when you say young girl. Either way, I for one, do not take your word for anything and I will use my own discretion about who to read or not read. What I or anyone else here choses to believe, disbelieve or give credence to is not under your control. Doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same story. And furthermore, what you've posted here, even if true, does not mean that his reports about his experiences and observations are untrue.

Yeah, I'm a real John Dillinger.

It is amazing what people have difficulty understanding.

I never said that his information was wrong.

I said several times that it is his character that I do not trust.

By the way, this is a message board, not a court of law.

I understand that you have some infatuation with Framks.

It's funny that you didn't accuse him of not reporting criminal activity.

And by the way young whippersnapper, when I say "young," I mean anybody under 50.

The Anabaptist Jacques

[Mark A. Baker]

... And by the way young whippersnapper, when I say "young," I mean anybody under 50.

The Anabaptist Jacques

For me it's closer to 40. Anyone under 30 counts as a post adolescent juvenile.


Mark A. Baker

[HelluvaHoax!]

LOVE IT!!!

Shouldn't that pic of hubbard be at the bottom of the toilet bowl?


:hysterical:

Wouldn't that be Joking & Degrading?

I diligently try to maintain dignity in my postings, which is why I positioned the Founder's photo in the time-honored position on the toilet seat-back.

[PirateAndBum]

There are two Hubbards:

One is a real person who existed, who has a paper trail which allows people to find out what kind of a person he was. He was a liar, a cheat, a coward, and an abuser.

The other Hubbard is a ficticious 'great man' with all kinds of amazing achievments. All lies, poppycock, drivel. This Hubbard is the Hubbard that Hubbard wanted to be, but never could be. This is the Hubbard that Scientologists need him to be.

Oh NO! There's a third Hubbard now! LRH, the all-knowing OT, almost Godlike, best friend of mankind, who courageously explored the upper levels for us and gave us our eternity. This Hubbard is way beyond falsity. 'LRH' is nothing more than an advertising tool - a device.

LRH is Scientology's Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders, nothing more


There's a sucker born every minute. LRH - Scilon's Jesus


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeQsZOQqO6I

You too can be a god. Step right up!

[I told you I was trouble]

Love your avatar, and appreciate all your content. Just wish you'd use left hand justification which would make it much easier to read.

Just sayin


Lol ... oh alright then, I'll try!

It won't ever look OK (to me) though ...


:biggrin:

[Dulloldfart]

Lol ... oh alright then, I'll try!

It won't ever look OK (to me) though ...


:biggrin:

Much better. Keep it up. :)

Paul

[HelluvaHoax!]

There are two Hubbards:

One is a real person who existed, who has a paper trail which allows people to find out what kind of a person he was. He was a liar, a cheat, a coward, and an abuser.

The other Hubbard is a ficticious 'great man' with all kinds of amazing achievments. All lies, poppycock, drivel. This Hubbard is the Hubbard that Hubbard wanted to be, but never could be. This is the Hubbard that Scientologists need him to be.

Oh NO! There's a third Hubbard now! LRH, the all-knowing OT, almost Godlike, best friend of mankind, who courageously explored the upper levels for us and gave us our eternity. This Hubbard is way beyond falsity. 'LRH' is nothing more than an advertising tool - a device.

LRH is Scientology's Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders, nothing more.



Oh shit, that's it!!!!

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::h ysterical::hysterical: