Reading "Messiah or Madman"

[Emma]

I ws lucky enough to find an early copy (the one with the makeshift bookjacket) on ebay and snapped it up.

I sort of read bits and pieces on the net over the years but never thoroughly.

So I am enjoying snuggling up in bed at night and sinking my teeth into this wonderful book.

There are a number of passages that I'd love to throw up for discussion, but I'll start with this one.

This is from Part 1, Chapter 9 - The brainwashing manual



From Brian Ambry's critique on Scientology:

While "white Scientology" (techniques and data which have the po-
tential to assist an individual to become more independent and self-
determined) is promoted by the Church as the Entirety of the subject,
there is also a dark side to Scientology. A dark side which makes indi-
viduals permanently dependent upon the Church, and, instead of self-
determined, "Ron-determined...."

The marriage of potentially liberating methodologies with enslaving
ones, the mixing of truth with lies, and love with hate: that is the
strange story of L. Ron Hubbard and his Church.*

Hubbard was a "user." He used freedom He used goodness. Help-
ing others feel better, understand more, communicate better - this
was all fine, so long as he considered that it increased his power.

He helped others so as to own them; to create gratitude and trust
and give himself authority or "altitude." He set up people to be ma-
nipulated by first assisting them to feel better to have "wins" and so
forth.

There are those who insist that all "gains" and "wins" in Scientology
are delusory - that all the counseling is brainwashing. That's nonsense.
The trap is much more sophisticated than that.

He was a man of many methods.


I felt a literal kick in the guts when I read this.

It explained so much for me.

For the last 6 years I've wondered about the seeming contradiction of Scientology. How you could read something and be blown away by the beauty and simplicity of it, and experience real case gain from the realisations JUST from reading, yet once you left the sanctity of the courseroom, you were confronted with an Organisation of madness.

When "in" Scientology, I used to justify this madness by explaining it away as untrained admin terminals, group bank or something similar. But I slowly began to realise it was more than that, especially after a trip or two uplines for an ethics handling to a SO Org where the insanity was even worse. My excuses just didn't hold water after that.

Reading that passage made so much sense to me. To understand a little better how the trap was laid makes it easier to get out of.

[Oingo Boingo]

Hey, Emma...

I'm surprised you haven't read that all the way through yet. I've read it, I think, about 4 or 5 times from end to end online. It's important to me for some reason to know almost exactly where to look in the book's timeline for suff, because there is a LOT of stuff and when you use it to back a point of view, it's smart to be able to land as close to where you need to be as possible.

That aside, you'll find it a riveting read once you get into it cover to cover and you'll find it less "dry" than Piece of Blue Sky, which is, nonetheless, also an excellent read.

Enjoy

[lionheart]

It's an excellent critique. Personally I have no data as to how knowingly Ron combined giving people wins in order to increase his power. But he certainly enjoyed getting their gratitude, even going so far as describing himself as mankind's best friend!

The irony is that the wins he gave people were making them more free, less controlled, which is why he wapped those that got too free with SP declares. So he was setting himself up to fail ultimately.

After I got my declare I analysed Scn history from then backwards and noticed an approximately seven-year cycle which went purge, gentler ethics, tech development, purge. I don't have enough post '82 info on the church to know if this cyclic behaviour continued.

Others say he ruthlessly manipulated people, personally I don't know how much he was ever that much in control of himself. Stories abound of his uncontrolled temper, So how knowing his use of people was, I'm not sure about. But it is obvious to conclude that his Grades were "out" and in frantic dramatisation!

The book is a great tool for explaining what happened to us. Enjoy!

[Bea Kiddo]

Peace

[Emma]

Hey, Emma...

I'm surprised you haven't read that all the way through yet. I've read it, I think, about 4 or 5 times from end to end online. It's important to me for some reason to know almost exactly where to look in the book's timeline for suff, because there is a LOT of stuff and when you use it to back a point of view, it's smart to be able to land as close to where you need to be as possible.

That aside, you'll find it a riveting read once you get into it cover to cover and you'll find it less "dry" than Piece of Blue Sky, which is, nonetheless, also an excellent read.

Enjoy

Yeah I know it's weird that I hadn't read it.

I read "A Piece of Blue Sky" and "Bare Faced Mesiah" as soon as I was able to when I got out. I borrowed APOBS from the library and read BFM on line.

I've read a bunch of other stuff too, but for some reason I never got to this one, not in full anyhow.

I'm LOVING it. It has to be one of the best I've read. I'm glad I own a copy.

I also managed to snap up "The Mind Benders" by the late Cyril Vosper. I enjoyed the book although it didn't really teach me anything I didn't know. I found it entertaining and a bit sad. I was on staff when Cyril was living in Melbourne and used to put the fear of Xenu into the local OSA crows when he showed up to picket. When he died we lost a great SP in Melbourne.

[lionheart]

Lionheart - I would say that the cycle certainly continued many times after 82 (I was there until a couple years ago and that ethics cycle is doing its loops right on time).

It would make sense that the psychotic cycle continued, because those at the top are dramatizing LRH and being him I suppose they can't help having the same self-destructive psychosis. Poor fools!

[lionheart]

Yeah I know it's weird that I hadn't read it.

I read "A Piece of Blue Sky" and "Bare Faced Mesiah" as soon as I was able to when I got out. I borrowed APOBS from the library and read BFM on line.

I've read a bunch of other stuff too, but for some reason I never got to this one, not in full anyhow.

I'm LOVING it. It has to be one of the best I've read. I'm glad I own a copy.

I also managed to snap up "The Mind Benders" by the late Cyril Vosper. I enjoyed the book although it didn't really teach me anything I didn't know. I found it entertaining and a bit sad. I was on staff when Cyril was living in Melbourne and used to put the fear of Xenu into the local OSA crows when he showed up to picket. When he died we lost a great SP in Melbourne.


I love the "great SP" description!

I remember in the seventies, around the corner from London Org, there was a bookshop that always had a copy of Mind Benders in its window!

[UMike]

Bent Corydon who wrote the book is pretty good pals with our own poster "Programmer Guy" BTW.
For my personal taste it's the only book I enjoyed and read many times other than the Kaufman read below. You picked a winner.

This was the first book in 1972 to publish Clearing and OT material.
It was the coffin nail of the SCN belief system and instrumental in my leaving.
It is now a collectors item as you will see:

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Scientology-Joined-Became-Superhuman/dp/0700401105/sr=8-1/qid=1170266262/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-1963540-8752400?ie=UTF8&s=books

UMike

[Romuva]

The one thing is always wanted to know with LRon JR. was how much
he was telling about Sci and LRH was truth.

Personally,it wouldn't surprise me if everything he said was true,I always
wondered if some of what he said was embellished.Maybe some of it
was payback because he was really pissed off at some of the shit COS
did to him.Of course,it could also be total propaganda towards him.
Anything that will stick and grow legs.

but I always felt bad for him.I think he's a survivor.Another throwaway of
a talented ,if not at least intelligent person.Like so many in COS it seems.

[UMike]

The one thing is always wanted to know with LRon JR. was how much
he was telling about Sci and LRH was truth.

Personally,it wouldn't surprise me if everything he said was true,I always
wondered if some of what he said was embellished.Maybe some of it
was payback because he was really pissed off at some of the shit COS
did to him.Of course,it could also be total propaganda towards him.
Anything that will stick and grow legs.

but I always felt bad for him.I think he's a survivor.Another throwaway of
a talented ,if not at least intelligent person.Like so many in COS it seems.

Ask Alan--he knew him well.
I think it's ALL affirmitive.
Sifting through all the accounts I've seen over the years--Mixture of truth, bitterness and embellishment as well.
That Penthouse interview remains the most damning/important first hand account about LRH ever published. I re-read it every few years or so...

UMike

[Romuva]

Oh, I didn't know Alan knew him Umike.That's cool

I was reading a long page LRon Dewolfe had written on OC .Just
his thoughts on the organization and other ideas.

It just seemed he was being honest and not contriving anything.

Yeah ,it's strange with alot of these people.It seems they are so much
like Dissidents and detractors of other groups.

but yeah,I had a packet of old news articles sent to me about Ron Dewolfe plus the
penthouse interview.The Penthouse interview is very compelling.

I forgot about this part,scary if that part was true but it doesn't surprise me



Hubbard: Two of the people we were involved with in the late fifties in England were Errol Flynn and a man who was high up in the Labor Party at the time. My father and Errol Flynn were very similar. They were only interested in money, sex, booze, and drugs. At that time, in the late fifties, Flynn was pretty much of a burned-out hulk. But he was involved in smuggling deals with my father: gold from the Mediterranean, and some drugs --mostly cocaine. They were both just a little larger than life. I had to admire my father from one standpoint. As I've said, he was a down-and-out, broke science-fiction writer, and then he writes one book of science-fiction and convinces the world it's true. He sells it to millions of people and gets billions of dollars and everyone thinks he's some sort of deity. He was really bigger than life. Flynn was like that, too. You could say many negative things about the two of them, but they did as they pleased and lived as they pleased. It was always fun to sit there at dinner and listen to these two guys rap. Wild people. Errol Flynn was like my father also in that he would do anything for money. He would take anything to bed --boys, girls, Fifty-year-old women, ten-year-old boys, Flynn and my father had insatiable appetites. Tons of mistresses. They lived very high on the hog.


Penthouse: And what about this Labor Party official?


Hubbard: He was a double agent for the KGB and for the British intelligence agency. He was also a raging homosexual. He wanted my father to use his black-magic, soul-cracking, brainwashing techniques on young boys. He wanted these boys as his own sexual slaves. He wanted to use my father's techniques to crack people's heads open because he was very influential in and around the British government --plus he was selling information to the Russians. And so was my father.


Penthouse: Your father was selling information to the Soviets?


Hubbard: Yes. That's where my father got the money to buy St. Hill Manor in East Grinstead, Sussex, which is the English headquarters of Scientology today.


Penthouse: What information did your father have to sell the Soviet government?

Hubbard: He didn't do any spying himself. What he normally did was allow these strange little people to go into the offices and into his home at odd hours of the night. He told me that he was allowing the KGB to go through our files, and that he was charging £40,000 for it. This was the money he used for the purchase of St. Hill Manor.


Penthouse: Do you know any specific information that the KGB got from your father that might have been harmful to security?


Hubbard: The plans for an infrared heat-seeking missile in the early fifties. They obtained the information by extensive auditing of the guy who was one of the head engineers. There were great infiltrations clear to this day. There has always been an inordinate interest on the part of Scientology in military and government personnel. There's no way for me to prove it sitting here, but I believe that the KGB trained East German agents who came via Denmark to London to the United States who were, supposedly, Scientologists. They made very good Scientologists. They were very well trained.


Maybe it's not strange,I understand it better than I think I do,perhaps

[UMike]

Alan was an early researcher and developer of the tech--Clear #8.
You will want to read this:

HTH

UMike

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=33

[Romuva]

UMike thanks for the link.

I like Alan,he's a cool guy.I didn't realize who he was.


I didn't know LRH had a great -grandson who is also a critic.I'd liked to
e-mail and thank him .It was his grandfather's book that for the most part
got me out of COS.but it's all the long time ex's here that put it into
perspective.

[Oingo Boingo]

Hey, Rom...

It's been ages since I've read the Penthouse article. However, this part don't surprise me in the least:



The plans for an infrared heat-seeking missile in the early fifties. They obtained the information by extensive auditing of the guy who was one of the head engineers.

Given the whole "overts/withholds" thing = BAD, it's small wonder that Hubbard was able to pry the secrets out of these guys, cause remember, withhold = secret and you weren't allowed to have those when you audited. They had to be pulled.

It makes one wonder though, what advancement they got out of that session... Might have taken a while, but could have eventually resulted in the AA-11 "Aphid" air-to-air missile or the AS-10 "Karen" surface-to-air as well...

It's pretty scary that what was, for all intents and purposes, a mediocre sci-fi writer could have possibly held that much sway, especially at a time when the "Red Menace" was the ultimate boogyman.

Of course, this is not to mention the hypocrisy of Hubbard rolling over on his partners when he thought they did him wrong by decrying them as Communists (or Nazis) to the FBI.

[Romuva]

Hey OB,yeah it would make sense that they would get that information
out of those sessions.Whether top scientists and engineers with
security clearances were being audited is another matter.Who knows?

And in the end was there enough proof to show that LRH what do anything
for money,so to speak?

[Oingo Boingo]

Hey OB,yeah it would make sense that they would get that information
out of those sessions.Whether top scientists and engineers with
security clearances were being audited is another matter.Who knows?

And in the end was there enough proof to show that LRH what do anything for money,so to speak?

Heh.. Funny way of putting it, but yeah, even near the end of his life, LRH had an insatiable need for money and power. I think it was Vaughn Young who was present after one of the final strokes LRH had when he was hiding out in his Bluebird motor home. According to him, LRH would ask to see one of his suitcases filled with money and nod approvingly. Word has it he liked jewels and stocks/bonds too.

Earlier though, he openly admitted to this love for money and power outright. It kind of shocked RVY too. Additionally, in his auditing sessions, Hubbard allegedly had massive Overts/withholds on money and power issues as well, so yeah, I'd say there's evidence aplenty of it.

In the end, Hubbard died alone. By that I don't mean physically alone, he certainly had enough vultures around him waiting to pick the corpse of Scientology after his death, but in the end, the only thing that gave him comfort and solace was the hard, cold cash, not the people around him.

[Romuva]

Well the one thing I see with Scientology is the level of enticements and
so called incentives.

They seem like they do this alot with their P.I.'s (it's alot of the same shit
the KGB used to do supposedly) basically give us info and we'll make things
good for you.A good informant has alot of incentive.After a while you'll
have the best team working for you,I'm sure.Take a guy like Ingram
he was a cop? right?...even better.scumbag with a badge for hire.


and I'm sure over the years they have refined that.A Scientologist P.I.
or lawyer is optimum...Auditing is better than money..ect.

so it had to of started somewhere.What better place than "source".

I think one thing Ron Dewolfe probably was right about was his family
having a history of Rouges and scoundrels.

That's probably alot of what his father was.A manipulative B.S. artist so
he could appeal to those types that wanted to work for him...P.I.'s
,lawyers ..ect..

It just seems to make sense

[programmer_guy]

Bent Corydon who wrote the book is pretty good pals with our own poster "Programmer Guy" BTW.


Noooo! Please don't think that. This is not true. I did not talk to Bent one-on-one very many times AND those few times were fairly brief. I haven't seen him since I left about 30 years ago (I left in Spring 1976 to return to college).



For my personal taste it's the only book I enjoyed and read many times other than the Kaufman read below. You picked a winner.


It wasn't the only tell-all SCN exposé book that I liked BUT it is my favorite. As I have said - I am biased because I was at the Riverside Mission and I liked Bent (and Mary too).

Best regards

[programmer_guy]

I remember Bent mentioning in his book when Hubbard moved into Riverside County and how his (Bent's) life was then "meddled with".

This was really the beginning of the end to the Riverside Mission.

I'll review this later and post some more.

When the mission was being destroyed by CofS, some staff moved elsewhere: to Buenaventura mission - Jim Hamre, Tom & Kathy; to Palo Alto mission - Rodney & Joanie, Stricklands, Greniers, Loretta, (Frank Walker?), and more. (I wonder if Roger Coy moved to Palo Alto - he was the drummer for both bands.)

[programmer_guy]

When I went to visit Tory last February (a year ago) I was hoping that Bent would be there. No luck.

It was still interesting. Several people from ARS were there (I will not name them as Tory asked us not to do that)... only two of us from OCMB.

In person, Tory is a lovable person. I walked into the front door and headed straight to find her (found her in the kitchen) and said, "Hi, I'm programmer guy." She smiled and opened her arms for a big hug - that's the way she is. I like Tory.

[Alan]

Bent and Mary were great people.......both excellent processors.......superb comm. cycles.

They actually went way beyond the Technology of Scio.....

As for the Penthouse article of Nibs.......it was and is mostly BS.

I know exactly where and from whom LRH got his money from to continue through the years.

As for the later years he definitely went odd...as in strange.

But, during the early 50's and 60's he and MSH lived very frugally. He worked 18 hours a day, 7 days a week.

He bought Saint Hill for about $75 to $80,000.

Scio and LRH was living on the edge of bankrupcy for almost all of the first 20 years.

Alan

[Romuva]

Alan,it's good you're here to set the record straight.I've been done with COS
for so long ,it's good to just read the truth on the matter.

[programmer_guy]

What I was hoping for this thread was bringing up the issues that Bent brought up in his book. Although much of it has already been addressed on other forums.

I'm going by old memory

The various chain-locker incidents.

Someone imprisoned in the Fort Harrison.

Bent's experience at the Mission Holder's Conference. A biggie!

Bent's final drive by Hemet and his thoughts on this.

-------------------------------------------

I'm going to get the book to re-read it sometime soon. It's been many years since I read it.

[Veda]

This follows along a similar theme as the quote from the 'Brainwashing Manual' chapter in 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?':

http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Scientology%20Sly%20and%20Tall%20Edgy%20%2D%20Bria n%20Ambry.pdf

[Veda]

Only about five pages from Ron Jr. make it into the book, 'Messiah or Madman?', and that includes none of the Penthouse article. And, those five pages are pretty well supported by court evidence, and other reliable evidence and testimony.

I don't think anyone *really* knows about sources of income from the very earliest days (early to mid 1950s). There was a pattern of stashing money away - which, officially, "no longer existed." And then declaring bankruptcy, or annoucing "near bankruptcy." But that's an area - a "grey area" - that I would prefer to skip for now.

One point, though, on Ron Jr. He was 17 when he re-joined his father and Dianetics, soon to become Scientology. He adored his father and believed every word his father told him. He was privy to much inside information, but also to plenty of his father's "tall tales."

Sometimes, especially in the Penthouse interview, Ron Jr. would describe something that his father had *told* him - and then, this, in the interview, comes across as something Ron Jr., himself, *observed*. For example, Ron Jr. observed an odd looking fellow in a trench coat walking into a garage (or something similar, this is from my memory of a long ago read interview), and THEN, his father told him that this was a "KGB agent," etc.

This tended to create some confusion, not only in Ron Jr.'s mind about certain things, but, also, some confusion between what Ron Jr. observed and what he -as a trusting teenager - was told by his Dad.

Ron Jr.'s description of hs father's fascination with the writings of Aleister Crowley rings true with me, as does his description of drug use in the early/mid 1950s by his father. Ladayla, a poster on other forums, and who was there as early as 1954, can attest to Hubbard's drug use; and there is an abundance of other evidence to support it. In fact, it's hardly a controversial subject anymore, except for true believing Scientologists.

In any event, so little of Ron Jr. made it into the book, that it's hardly worth arguing over - atleast on this thread -and Ron Jr.'s name was removed from the 2nd edition, anyway.

[Veda]

What I was hoping for this thread was bringing up the issues that Bent brought up in his book. Although much of it has already been addressed on other forums.

I'm going by old memory

The various chain-locker incidents.

Someone imprisoned in the Fort Harrison.

Bent's experience at the Mission Holder's Conference. A biggie!

Bent's final drive by Hemet and his thoughts on this.

-------------------------------------------

I'm going to get the book to re-read it sometime soon. It's been many years since I read it.

The chapters on earlier sources for Dianetics and Scientology are also worth exploring, I think.

Link to Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637577/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0654802-4263319

Bent Corydon speaking:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.xenutv.com/images/books/bent-book.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.xenutv.com/panels/corydon-tape1.htm&h=144&w=100&sz=11&hl=en&start=25&tbnid=V_er0D8N-eo5wM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmessiah%2Bor%2Bmadman%253F%26start%3D 20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2 coff%3D1%26rls%3DGWYA,GWYA:2005-06,GWYA:en%26sa%3DN

[Romuva]

Cool link in 1987

I always liked his book but to hear him on the radio is cool.
That's a great interview.

Corydon's book helped me get out of COS.

[Vinaire]

I read Bent Corydon's "Messiah or Madman" back in 1984 after I left S.O. I have now purchased the updated version and started to read it today.

Tony, the four-year-old boy, who was locked up in the chain locker on Apollo, must be over 40 now. Did he ever surface to tell his story first-hand, or any of his relatives?

.

[Free to shine]

This follows along a similar theme as the quote from the 'Brainwashing Manual' chapter in 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?':

http://www.freewebs.com/slyandtalledgy/Scientology%20Sly%20and%20Tall%20Edgy%20%2D%20Bria n%20Ambry.pdf

Thanks for that link Veda!

[programmer_guy]

From the looks of it... Bent has recently been (past few months) spiffing up the interior of the big building that he still owns in downtown Riverside.

Recently, I passed by and his office in the upper corner is now all lit up with nice pics on the walls.


Bent,

You're a good guy and I wish you all the best. Happy new year!

[Veda]

I read Bent Corydon's "Messiah or Madman" back in 1984 after I left S.O. I have now purchased the updated version and started to read it today.

Tony, the four-year-old boy, who was locked up in the chain locker on Apollo, must be over 40 now. Did he ever surface to tell his story first-hand, or any of his relatives?

.

Transcribed excerpts from 'Secret Lives':

http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/media/tv/secret/secret3.html

'Secret Lives', BBC program on L. Ron Hubbard:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

Hana Eltringham, in short clip, tells of the 4 year old boy - Derek Greene.

http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/children1.html

The 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' thread.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

[Pixie]

Having viewed this now for the second time I find it a must for everyone.

Thanks for posting Veda. :clap:

[programmer_guy]

I do recommend that everyone read Bent's book. He did a lot of work to produce that expose. You all should read it if you haven't already.

BTW, I forgive whatever Bent did while under the influence of Scientology. Underneath all that, he seemed to be a good guy. I admire his courage "under fire" while he was doing that.

[Rmack]

I do recommend that everyone read Bent's book. He did a lot of work to produce that expose. You all should read it if you haven't already.

BTW, I forgive whatever Bent did while under the influence of Scientology. Underneath all that, he seemed to be a good guy. I admire his courage "under fire" while he was doing that.

I use to work for Bent, and ran into him at flag in the early eighties when he was sleeping on the beach! I was 'berthed' at the sand dollar at the time, supposedly working off my 'freeloaders debt'. It was right smack in the middle of the upheaval.

And yes, his book is perhaps the most historically significant.

[programmer_guy]

I use to work for Bent, and ran into him at flag in the early eighties when he was sleeping on the beach!


Why was he sleeping on the beach? I thought that he was running a successful Mission at that time... at least until the infamous "Mission Holders Conference". (I'm ignorant about this since I left before that time.)

[Thrak]

That's a good one. Really brings it all together. I guess he really did have a similar illness to Howard Hughes but that's where the comparison stops.

[Rmack]

Why was he sleeping on the beach? I thought that he was running a successful Mission at that time... at least until the infamous "Mission Holders Conference". (I'm ignorant about this since I left before that time.)

He was there about the time they were trying to take his mission, and had probably been cleaned out by them. I was outraged, and offered to let him surreptitiously bunk in the packed Sand Dollar room they had me in, but he wisely declined.

Want to hear another Bent Corydon anecdote?

I was on staff in the mid Seventies at Bent's Riverside, CA mission when he told us during a staff meeting of his first hand encounters with Hubbard on the Apollo. It was many brain cells ago, but I remember him describing some banal exchange between him and Laffy like just a greeting and an inquiry as to progress on course or something like that.

He said, with a grin "and that was it" and then sort of had a wiggle attack on the stool he was sitting on!

I learned later by reading his book that he was withholding an important point covered in the 'fear in the masters eye' section.

He later learns that the fear in Blub's eye that freaked him out so much was because Hubbard somehow suspected him of being a journalist, and had his cronies check him out.

I believe he comments in the book on the apparent paranoia that this suggests? However, it struck me as being a startling indicator of real 'OT' or psychic abilities on the ol' bastards part. I mean, Bent really did many years later go on to be one of the most damaging 'journalists' to ever write publicly about the whole story of LRH and his cult.

Could the ol' man have located in Western Riverside County when he moved to Hemet as an attempt to be on hand to handle the flap he saw coming? Or just because Bent's mission was so successful? It's fun to speculate.

[Alan]

Why was he sleeping on the beach? I thought that he was running a successful Mission at that time... at least until the infamous "Mission Holders Conference". (I'm ignorant about this since I left before that time.)



Both the Corydons and Kemps had been kicked out of Scientology and lost their properties about 2 years earlier.

The infamous "Mission Holders Conference" got their properties returned to them.

Alan

[Lulu Belle]

After I got my declare I analysed Scn history from then backwards and noticed an approximately seven-year cycle which went purge, gentler ethics, tech development, purge.


There was an amazing post on ARS years and years ago. Don't remember who it was by, and don't know where it went. Have looked for it; no luck. (The archiving of pre-2000 usenet posts sucks.)

It was about "reap and rape".

Management would build up orgs; missions; FSMs; whatever.

The entity would start making money.

As soon as they started bringing in the cash, the rape cycle would start.

Be all warm and fuzzy and helpful, and help the org/mission/FSM start making income.

Follow by ripping it off.

[Veda]

There was an amazing post on ARS years and years ago. Don't remember who it was by, and don't know where it went. Have looked for it; no luck. (The archiving of pre-2000 usenet posts sucks.)

It was about "reap and rape".

Management would build up orgs; missions; FSMs; whatever.

The entity would start making money.

As soon as they started bringing in the cash, the rape cycle would start.

Be all warm and fuzzy and helpful, and help the org/mission/FSM start making income.

Follow by ripping it off.

Sounds like the comments of Martin Samuels, in the 'Reflections' chapter of 'Messiah or Madman?'

Below are a few short excerpts:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=135160&postcount=12

Second post contains more of the Samuels quote - at the end.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=54027&postcount=42

[programmer_guy]

The infamous "Mission Holders Conference" got their properties returned to them.


AFAIK, Bent still owns that property. A couple of years ago another ex-staffer and I strolled through the basement (which is now an excersize/health club). I asked them if Bent still owned the building and they said something like "Oh, you know Bent?"... confirming that Bent still owns it.

[programmer_guy]

Rmack,

Depending on which Div you were in, you and I may have met at some time... I don't know. (You may have been on staff while I was at ASHO for training... depending on how long you were on staff there.)

I was on staff, at that time, as Comm Course sup, HQS sup, and HSDC sup at different times. On the HSDC I supped with Rodney Michaelson for awhile.

Steven Rothchild watched over the HQS and the HSDC as a senior supervisor.

Debbie Butler was senior supervisor over the Comm Course while I supped on that course. This was at the same time that Jim Hamre was also supping the Comm Course (before he switched to regging in Div2.)

During that time Rene Ansert was an auditor and Jeff Kovac was a reg. Darcy was an auditor that (I think) also did some C/Sing under Mary Corydon.

[Wisened One]

WOW! :clap: AWESOME VIDEO!! Where's the rest of it, tho?


Transcribed excerpts from 'Secret Lives':

http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/media/tv/secret/secret3.html

'Secret Lives', BBC program on L. Ron Hubbard:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

Hana Eltringham, in short clip, tells of the 4 year old boy - Derek Greene.

http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/children1.html

The 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' thread.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

[Tim Skog]

I ws lucky enough to find an early copy (the one with the makeshift bookjacket) on ebay and snapped it up.

I sort of read bits and pieces on the net over the years but never thoroughly.

So I am enjoying snuggling up in bed at night and sinking my teeth into this wonderful book.

There are a number of passages that I'd love to throw up for discussion, but I'll start with this one.

This is from Part 1, Chapter 9 - The brainwashing manual



I felt a literal kick in the guts when I read this.

It explained so much for me.

For the last 6 years I've wondered about the seeming contradiction of Scientology. How you could read something and be blown away by the beauty and simplicity of it, and experience real case gain from the realisations JUST from reading, yet once you left the sanctity of the courseroom, you were confronted with an Organisation of madness.

When "in" Scientology, I used to justify this madness by explaining it away as untrained admin terminals, group bank or something similar. But I slowly began to realise it was more than that, especially after a trip or two uplines for an ethics handling to a SO Org where the insanity was even worse. My excuses just didn't hold water after that.

Reading that passage made so much sense to me. To understand a little better how the trap was laid makes it easier to get out of.

Yes, it is an excellent account of Hubbo. Ron was a very good con man. He knew that you had to reel them in and the best way was to give someone a truth that could lead to a win.

The whole lower portion of the Grade Chart and all the early basic books are geared to create wins for people. And once you are winning it makes it easier to move you along to the tougher and harder (and more expensive) to believe stuff like OT3, etc.

The other clever thing that LRH did was to announce in the Sci Fi mag (don't remember which one) that a new Science of the Mind was going to appear in the next edition. He promoted to the one audience that would surely take an interest in DMSMH. And it worked like a charm.

[Thrak]

Yeah I've always thought some of the beginning stuff had some validity if only for the reason of getting people in. The question that remains for me is, is what he ended up with what he had intended all along, or did his intentions change and even oscillate through the years? To me it is just too complex for there to have been one plan that he never wavered from. I guess my theory is that he was schizo and had good and bad personalities he went in and out of and the bad won. But I'm sure some won't agree.

[Martini]

Hey OB,yeah it would make sense that they would get that information
out of those sessions.Whether top scientists and engineers with
security clearances were being audited is another matter.Who knows?

That was the exact part of DeWolfe's story that made my B.S. meter go off to it's highest point. Not a plausible story at all. What a story teller. I guess he got it from his dad. Apparently he had a lot to get even for.

The whole Penthouse article is bogus.



And in the end was there enough proof to show that LRH what do anything
for money,so to speak?

Selling U.S. nuclear bomb military secrets because of auditing on the engineer of nuclear bombs in which he violated all the highest of security clearances and gave over this information? lol

[Veda]

That was the exact part of DeWolfe's story that made my B.S. meter go off to it's highest point. Not a plausible story at all. What a story teller. I guess he got it from his dad. Apparently he had a lot to get even for.

The whole Penthouse article is bogus.



Selling U.S. nuclear bomb military secrets because of auditing on the engineer of nuclear bombs in which he violated all the highest of security clearances and gave over this information? lol

There is a total of five pages of material, from Ron Jr., in the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'. Nothing from the 'Penthouse' article appears there. All the material used in "Madman?' was supported by others' testimony and by court's evidence.

There's a confusion re. the 'Penthouse' article, as stories told to Ron Jr., by his father, were presented as being believed by Ron Jr. Ron Jr. belived some of it, not all of it, and was uncertain about some things. That's one category: Things he was *told* by his father. His father *told* him (he was 17 in 1950) that he was selling secrets to the Russians, just as his father told Scientologists so many things. And, not unlike the Scientologists who are still "sorting it out" and recovering, so did Ron Jr. attempt to do so.

Of course, Ron Jr. had the problem of having been Fair Gamed, by his father and Scientology, for most of his life. The two "buttons" that Scientology Inc. went after were "family, wife, children," and "money, jobs, etc." Scientology Inc. was relentless. There was even a little celebration after Ron Jr.'s son was born with Downs syndrome. They figured that would be the final emotional straw that broke Ron Jr.'s back.

Nice.

Ron Jr. was told many things by his father, but he also *witnessed* his father's behavior: his father throwing dinner plates against walls, his father drinking heavily, and his father using drugs; he witnessed his father's fascination with the writings of Aleister Crowley, and with the darkest aspects of the occult, witnessed his father's use of self-hypnosis with the 'Affirmations' - the 'Affirmations' beginning in the late 1930s. He also witnessed his father secretly stuffing cash into shoe boxes, telling people he had no money, and then declaring bankruptcy, and he witnessed the contempt with which his father regarded Scientologists, the Scientologists to whom his father had repeatedly lied.

All this, and more, has since been confirmed.

However, Ron Jr. was told so many tall tales by his father, that he spent the rest of his life trying to sort it out, and free himself from his father's manipulations. And he said so.

After the birth of Ron Jr.s youngest son in the early 1970s, who was born with Downs syndrome, Scientology Inc. - which was already tightening the screws on Ron Jr. with an assortment of covert dirty tricks, such as messing with his credit rating, having him fired from jobs, and even taking pictures of his kids walking to school, etc. - approached him to "settle, and "make peace." He did, for a while, and then began to speak out again in the early 1980s. A few years later, he had emergency surgery related to diabetes, come under further harassment, was penniless again, and settled again, withdrawing from involvement with the (then) half written 'Messiah or Madman?' book.

Ron Jr.'s name does not appear on the 2nd (1992), 3rd (1996), or Russian language (2005) editions.

[crm1978]

I loved Bent's book It took a lot of guts to take on CofS back when it was much easier to suppress info before the internet He and Gerry Armstrong deserve a medel for the way they exposed the lies hubbard told about his background .Another book I loved is "Inside Scientology" by Bob Kaufman.It described his path from idealistic newcomer then his desent into madness caused by the O.T. levels and his loss of belief in "tech" and his recovery from his Scion experence.A great read just as true today as in 1968.The part in Bent's book about where LRH really got the "tech" from makes a lot of sense As others have said the outer layer of Scn.is an appealing and very wonderfull veneer if you read some of the things LRH wrote such as "What is Greatness" and other nobel ideals as that.Unfortunently those are not the "real Hubbard"sadly many people don't discover that till they are. way in sometimes they never do.

[Ulduz]

My favorite book about Scientology is Bare Faced Messiah. I do not think any other book comes close to it. I give B- to Messiah or Madman

[Veda]

Opening post of this thread and follow up post by Emma:


I was lucky enough to find an early copy (the one with the makeshift bookjacket) on ebay and snapped it up.

I sort of read bits and pieces on the net over the years but never thoroughly.

So I am enjoying snuggling up in bed at night and sinking my teeth into this wonderful book.

There are a number of passages that I'd love to throw up for discussion, but I'll start with this one.

This is from Part 1, Chapter 9 - The brainwashing manual

[QUOTE FROM 'THE BRAINWASHING MANUAL' CHAPTER]

I felt a literal kick in the guts when I read this.

It explained so much for me.

For the last 6 years I've wondered about the seeming contradiction of Scientology. How you could read something and be blown away by the beauty and simplicity of it, and experience real case gain from the realisations JUST from reading, yet once you left the sanctity of the courseroom, you were confronted with an Organisation of madness.

When "in" Scientology, I used to justify this madness by explaining it away as untrained admin terminals, group bank or something similar. But I slowly began to realise it was more than that, especially after a trip or two uplines for an ethics handling to a SO Org where the insanity was even worse. My excuses just didn't hold water after that.

Reading that passage made so much sense to me. To understand a little better how the trap was laid makes it easier to get out of.


Yeah I know it's weird that I hadn't read it.

I read "A Piece of Blue Sky" and "Bare Faced Messiah" as soon as I was able to when I got out. I borrowed APOBS from the library and read BFM on line.

I've read a bunch of other stuff too, but for some reason I never got to this one, not in full anyhow.

I'm LOVING it. It has to be one of the best I've read. I'm glad I own a copy.

I also managed to snap up "The Mind Benders" by the late Cyril Vosper. I enjoyed the book although it didn't really teach me anything I didn't know. I found it entertaining and a bit sad. I was on staff when Cyril was living in Melbourne and used to put the fear of Xenu into the local OSA crows when he showed up to picket. When he died we lost a great SP in Melbourne.

Emma, if you're ever inclined to quote other passages from 'Madman?' for discussion, I'm sure many would be interested.

[SweetnessandLight]

http://s3-media2.px.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/7KCGOrYZ4q9eFDo2j2OtfQ/m.jpg

[programmer_guy]

http://s3-media2.px.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/7KCGOrYZ4q9eFDo2j2OtfQ/m.jpg

Yep, that's it.

Bent's office was in the upper corner (2nd floor).
The intro lecture (given by Joe Yazbeck) was in the room directly below that.

Auditing rooms were on the 2nd floor, and then later, also some in the basement.

The Comm Course was on the 1st floor; the HQS and HSDC were in the basement.

The Div2 regs were on the 2nd floor. One Div6 reg, Rene Walker's office, was right next to the intro lecture room.

EDIT: I had also carried 3/4 inch sheet rock up the stairs to build the reg and auditing room walls shortly after we moved into that building, decades ago. (Some of it was also 1/2 inch sheet rock. I don't remember why we had both. I think that, way back then, Bobby Mongello was making the decisions on these constructions. Correct me if I am wrong.)

[LongTimeGone]

Anyone complaining about the cruelties of Psychiatry should be made to read The Chapter "A Seafaring Messiah." (Page 27 of Messiah or Madman)

Here he describes a 4 year old boy, Tony, spending two days in the chain locker aboard the Apollo for the "crime" of eating a Telex.

Cruelty beyond comprehension.

LTG

[Rmack]

This book was the catalyst that freed me from the cult. I read it in one sitting.

I'm sure Emma finished it a long time ago, but I for one would be interested in what she thought about it.

Does anyone have any more info on the deal with LRH jr. and his association with the book? I understand that he was originally given credit as a co-author, but then than was dropped, or something. Someone mentioned a payoff from the cult to shut up on live chat. Where later copies of this book edited? Is it hard to get nowadays, or something? I still have my hardcover copy. Was it ever published in paperback?

[TheRealNoUser]

Is it hard to get nowadays, or something?
Available in pdf here:
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/new-pdf-version-of-l-ron-hubbard-messiah-or-madman-by-bent-corydon.78087/

[Clarence Rockaway]

I ws lucky enough to find an early copy (the one with the makeshift bookjacket) on ebay and snapped it up.

I sort of read bits and pieces on the net over the years but never thoroughly.

So I am enjoying snuggling up in bed at night and sinking my teeth into this wonderful book.

There are a number of passages that I'd love to throw up for discussion, but I'll start with this one.

This is from Part 1, Chapter 9 - The brainwashing manual



I felt a literal kick in the guts when I read this.

It explained so much for me.

For the last 6 years I've wondered about the seeming contradiction of Scientology. How you could read something and be blown away by the beauty and simplicity of it, and experience real case gain from the realisations JUST from reading, yet once you left the sanctity of the courseroom, you were confronted with an Organisation of madness.

When "in" Scientology, I used to justify this madness by explaining it away as untrained admin terminals, group bank or something similar. But I slowly began to realise it was more than that, especially after a trip or two uplines for an ethics handling to a SO Org where the insanity was even worse. My excuses just didn't hold water after that.

Reading that passage made so much sense to me. To understand a little better how the trap was laid makes it easier to get out of.
I used to get auditing from Bent Corydon's wife Mary. I was sitting with Bent in his kitchen in Riverside, California when he told me that he was going to write an expose on LRH. There was some discussion of my helping him edit it. But Brian Ambry was on the spot and far better qualified than I was. But I did write a poem called The O.T. Carrot. And this was supposed to divide book one from book two. However, Bent's publisher found him to be some 350 pages over the limit, and so my poem had to be axed. It was printed however in IVY. I hate to say it, but Corydon's was a case of fighting fire with fire. His own history with other people's money isn't lilly white. (Thea Greenberg died before he paid her back the $100 he owed her.) His rep in Riverside wasn't all that savory. I could say more on this, however, his contribution of the book outweighs all I guess.

[Veda]

This book was the catalyst that freed me from the cult. I read it in one sitting.

I'm sure Emma finished it a long time ago, but I for one would be interested in what she thought about it.

Does anyone have any more info on the deal with LRH Jr. and his association with the book? I understand that he was originally given credit as a co-author, but then than was dropped, or something. Someone mentioned a payoff from the cult to shut up on live chat. Where later copies of this book edited? Is it hard to get nowadays, or something? I still have my hardcover copy. Was it ever published in paperback?

I'm pretty sure that the situation with L. Ron Hubbard Jr. is covered in the Preface of the book. I did a quick cut and paste of some stuff already posted on ESMB, which might help.

The only scan available of the book is the 1998 scan of the 1987 edition (The one with with the "emergency cover.")

L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?, 2nd edition: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637577/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0654802-4263319

Below is a video by Mark Bunker from around 2000. Includes an interview with the former mayor of Clearwater, and a look at Dennis Clarke, cult thug and, then, head of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights. From 15:48 to 16:20 Mark holds up and discusses a copy of the 3rd edition of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?' http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4595729596527335458


Messiah or Madman?

The book L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman? has been published in three English language editions, each further revised and updated (1987, 1992, and 1996.) There is also a hardbound Russian language edition that became available in 2005.

An excerpt from the book flap for the 464 page 1996 edition:


"I have high hopes of smashing my name
into history so violently that it will take a
legendary form even if all the books are
destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as
I am concerned. Things which stand too
consistently in my way make me nervous.
It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years
Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which
gives some idea of the magnitude of my
attempt. And all this boils and froths inside
my head...
"Psychiatrists, reaching the high of the
dusty desk, tell us that Alexander, Genghis
Khan and Napoleon were madmen. I know
they're maligning some very intelligent
gentlemen."

L. Ron Hubbard wrote these words in a letter to
his first wife in 1938.

In 1950 he wrote the bestseller 'Dianetics, the
Modern Science of Mental Health. This inspired a
layman oriented mental health movement which,
ultimately, developed into Scientology, the most
profitable of the money-making new religions.

Hubbard's early Dianetic and Scientology writings
borrow freely from Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, and
the founder of General Semantics, Alfred Korzybski.

And P.T. Barnum appears to have been an inspiration.

Hubbard also took much from the writings of Aleister
Crowley - self-proclaimed "Beast 666." This is a source
of embarrassment for the Scientology Church, which
is determined to achieve broad public acceptance.

In the 1960s Hubbard incorporated Brainwashing
methodologies into the subject. He established the
"Fair Game Policy" which states that an "enemy" of
Scientology "may be deprived of property or injured
by any means by any Scientologist, without
discipline of that Scientologist. May be tricked,
sued, lied to or destroyed."

He also became the Commodore of his own private
navy, and began to refer to himself as "Source."

L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman? exposes
as never before the dark side of Scientology, yet
contains an in-depth examination of the potential
positives of the subject and their actual origins.