Has leaving the Church ended your association with Scientology?

[gomorrhan]

I've found that mentioning my time in Scientology destroys job interviews, destroys efforts to get into reputable colleges, and causes people to view me as damaged or otherwise as a pariah.

And yet, I don't feel it's honest not to answer questions when asked about my employment history, or where I developed an interest in psychology.

Of course, there's the ongoing drama of being disconnected from family, for me, too.

I'm also a person who didn't leave the Church because of problems I had with "the Tech", and so I continue to use those parts of it that I consider make sense to me, when I have nothing superior to use.

I wonder how many of you other exes have had similar problems, what solutions you've had for them, and if you've been happy with the application of those solutions.

[programmer_guy]

I've found that mentioning my time in Scientology destroys job interviews, destroys efforts to get into reputable colleges, and causes people to view me as damaged or otherwise as a pariah.


I got out of SCN early-on and finished college. So, I've never had to answer questions as to where I've been before (i.e. SCN involvement.) Although when I re-entered college I knew better than to mention my SCN involvement to the dean.

For example, I would imagine that a long term SO staffer might have some problems getting back into the WOG world regarding employment.




And yet, I don't feel it's honest not to answer questions when asked about my employment history...


IMO, you need to survive and get established in employment and get your life back. Diarrhea of the mouth/mind will not help you at all. Some things are better left un-said.

I like your desire to be honest BUT don't destroy yourself in the process. You have a right to your privacy.

:)

[Free to shine]

Has leaving the Church ended your association with Scientology?

Bloody oath! :)

ps Kevin this comment is a handy one to know in Oz.

[gomorrhan]

I ended up getting a job that was good despite my honesty, but I'm still working on that with colleges for my graduate training.

The ability to withhold is something I was trained out of, but never really had to begin with (not all withholds are reactive!).

Thanks for your answers!

And thanks for the tip, Free!

[lionheart]

I had a ten year gap in employment, due to Scn, that effectively made me unemployable.

I worked as self employed for 18 years and then it was easier to smear over the earlier employment gap.

I quit being self-employed and became employed 18 years after Scn declared me.

[Vinaire]

Scientology is just one step for seeker's of knowledge.

Confusing Scientology with all possible knowledge could be a barrier.

But I like the systematic approach to uncovering knowledge, which I glimpsed in Scientology.

:)
.

[Bea Kiddo]

I have never brought it up in job interviews. It was, however, on my resume.

I dont know where you live, of course, but in the US, it is completely illegal for them to ask anything about past religion, or use it to determine whether you are qualified for a position or not. They are not allowed to ask about it under any circumstances at all.

However, since working with the company that I have worked with for the past 3 years, I have made friends. In that time, I have only told one person about my past, and only a very limited view. Most co-workers just wonder. I dont really talk about it outside of with all of you on this message board, plus old Scientology friends.

[nw2394]

I've found that mentioning my time in Scientology destroys job interviews, destroys efforts to get into reputable colleges, and causes people to view me as damaged or otherwise as a pariah.

And yet, I don't feel it's honest not to answer questions when asked about my employment history, or where I developed an interest in psychology.


To answer the question in the title of your thread, truth is we are all associated with Scn in PT. The very fact that we come here is evidence of that. The association is a negaitve "ex" one, but it is an association all the same.

To answer the question above, people don't ask. Why complicate it? If they asked I would tell them.

Nick

[Vinaire]

I have no regrets for the time I spent in Sea Org from 1971 - 83, and earlier from 1969 - 71 as a public. It was a great experience and it made me appreciate my abilities.

I look at that period as the time I spent recovering from the dreadful condition of ankylosing spondalytis.

After leaving Sea Org, I spent a year back at home in India looking after my father who was suffering from cancer, and reviewing my years in Sea Org. I remember concluding to myself during that time that LRH was not infallible, and that my survival was not tied to LRH's survival or to the survival of his projects. LRH could continue with his projects and that I was free to continue with my own goals and projects.

When I returned to USA in 1984, and I was looking for a job, my academic credentials helped me. I covered the time spent in S.O. correctly in my resume as time spent in recovering from the debilitating effect of ankylosing spondalitis. There was no reason to mention Scientology, as that was not relevant.

I got a job as a CAD/CAM Administrator because of my lack of actual engineering experience. But I excelled at that job and introduced Finite Element Analysis to the company. I then worked as FEA Analyst till 2005. I am still missed by other engineers with whom I worked in that capacity. But now I have moved on to being a Manufacturing Engineer. I am now helping streamline and document the various manufacturing processes in the company.

My life has been very much under my control. :)

PS: I shall be leaving for my third international trip this Thursday to China. Earlier in March my family and I visited Turkey. During summer we all visited Galapagos Islands in South America.

.

[The Oracle]

I have no regrets for the time I spent in Sea Org from 1971 - 83, and earlier from 1969 - 71 as a public. It was a great experience and it made me appreciate my abilities.

I look at that period as the time I spent recovering from the deardful condition of ankylosing spondalytis.

After leaving Sea Org, I spent a year back at home in India looking after my father who was suffering from cancer, and reviewing my years in Sea Org. I remember concluding to myself during that time that LRH was not infallible, and that my survival was not tied to LRH's survival or to the survival of his projects. LRH could continue with his projects and that I was free to continue with my own goals and projects.

When I returned to USA in 1984, and I was looking for a job, my academic credentials helped me. I covered the time spent in S.O. correctly in my resume as time spent in recovering from the debilitating effect of ankylosing spondalitis. There was no reason to mention Scientology, as that was not relevant.

I got a job as a CAD/CAM Administrator because of my lack of actual engineering experience. But I excelled at that job and introduced Finite Element Analysis to the company. I then worked as FEA Analyst till 2005. I am still missed by other engineers with whom I worked in that capacity. But now I have moved on to being a Manufacturing Engineer. I am now helping streamline and document the various manufacturing processes in the company.

My life has been very much under my control. :)

PS: I shall be leaving for my third international trip this Thursday to China. Earlier in March my family and I visited Turkey. During summer we all visited Galapagos Islands in South America.

.

You a very elegant being Vinaire.

T.I.

[The Oracle]

I have found people are more interested in knowing what you are going to do for them, than what you did for others in the past.

I didn't hide the fact that I worked for the Church, it's valid employment.

I just delivered a hell of a lot more than was wanted and needed and that set me up for a career.

As long as you have a history of being competent that's what counts when it comes to employment.

At least, that has been my experience.


T.I.

[Vinaire]

You a very elegant being Vinaire.

T.I.

Thank you, sweetie.

I believe in completing cycles of actions thoroughly, and that has saved me many, many times.

I decided to complete my Master's degree from M.I.T. (in Nuclear Engineering) before joining Sea Org. That degree came in very handy when I was discarded by Sea Org.

Now, I am trying to complete the cycle of understanding those aspects of Scientology that helped me. I am not stuck on those aspects that did not help me.

.

[Vinaire]

I have found people are more interested in knowing what you are going to do for them, than what you did for others in the past.

I didn't hide the fact that I worked for the Church, it's valid employment.

I just delivered a hell of a lot more than was wanted and needed and that set me up for a career.

As long as you have a history of being competent that's what counts when it comes to employment.

At least, that has been my experience.


T.I.


That is very true. When one does what one likes to do, it is easy to excel.

On my own time I have been running a Math Club at the local library since August 1995. I never promoted it, but people found out about it, and they came. I never charged any money for that activity. People continued to come because they were benefitting from it. They talked to others about it. It has been just word of mouth.

Out of this came requests for personal tutoring. I started to tutor for $25 per hour on my own time. I also started to prepare my own math materials with the experience from Math Club and tutoring. One of the problem kid I tutored did so well that he went to Harvard. My tutoring style is troubleshooting the difficulties in math. My EP is when the student no longer needs me, and I have worked toward getting that EP faster and faster.

When my brother-in-law immigrated to USA in 2003, I helped him start as a math tutor. That gave him some support and time to get used to the culture and system in USA. Today, he is well-settled on a computer job. His son is ready to graduate from the Stoneybrook University in NY next summer as a Mechanical Engineer. He already has a job lined up in Washington with Boeing Aircraft Company.

I got recognized at the Annual Luncheon of the local library last month as Volunteer of the Year. They are now doing an article on me in the local newspaper.

I have more people asking for me for tutoring than I have time. Today, I am charging $60 per hour for tutoring, yet the demand continues to grow. For people who cannot pay that much, and are in very much of a need, I sometimes charge half to none, or refer them to full-time math tutors who charge less. Other times I give them my self-developed materials at $25 per Milestone, or free, when I can't give them personal time.

I keep myself very busy helping others as much as I can.

.

[gomorrhan]

It's definitely been less of a drag in my work world than in my school world, particularly after I was able to go back to school and finish my bachelor's degree. It's also far enough ago in my past that it's no longer necessary to document that period for employers (17 years).

I agree with those who have said it unnecessarily complicates things for me to bring it up, as well as those who say it's not required by law to talk about your religion. The trick is when you were asked where you WORKED, and it happened to be "The Church of Scientology". While they might not ask you about your religious views, they are very likely to form a judgment. I'm glad I don't have to list it any more.

It's much trickier for me when in interviews for grad school in psychology, where the interview is a very long one, intimately connected with my reasons for wanting to be a psychologist. Trust me when I tell you that many psychologists are now aware of the Church of Scientology's rabid hatred of them and their subject. I think that they won't ask me much about it, but it's very likely that they won't accept me for their program: after all, they usually have hundreds of applicants for a single position in the program, and any reason to set you outside those being considered will act against you, whether they tell you so or not!

[Vinaire]

Of course, being stably married to a wonderful girl helped me a lot.

.

[Zinjifar]

Of course, being stably married to a wonderful girl helped me a lot.

.

Thank you Ron? :whistling:

Zinj

[Vinaire]

Thank you Ron? :whistling:

Zinj

I don't think Ron deserves any thanks here.

I have come to believe that my gains came from my own efforts.

Not everybody frees oneself from ankylosing spondalitis in their first 25 hours of auditing.

But Ron played a part in making that set up available to me.

.

[chipgallo]

I've found that mentioning my time in Scientology destroys job interviews, destroys efforts to get into reputable colleges, and causes people to view me as damaged or otherwise as a pariah.

And yet, I don't feel it's honest not to answer questions when asked about my employment history, or where I developed an interest in psychology.

Of course, there's the ongoing drama of being disconnected from family, for me, too.

I'm also a person who didn't leave the Church because of problems I had with "the Tech", and so I continue to use those parts of it that I consider make sense to me, when I have nothing superior to use.

I wonder how many of you other exes have had similar problems, what solutions you've had for them, and if you've been happy with the application of those solutions.

I was interested in psychology before I heard about Scientology so that hasn't been an issue for me. I don't consider the org to be an employer but more of an expensive hobby, where I gave away my time and burned personal assets to cover the gap in pay.

As far as using the so-called tech, there have been occasions where a behavior or an outcome proved predictable for me using Hubbardian methods. It isn't a subject I can refer others to because of the unclear provenance on the research and discovery. Tracking the ownership and development of the useful components of Dianetics or Scientology back to the original developer is difficult and broadly discouraged within the organization. Also, I am uncomfortable sending friends and family to official Scientology outlets due to the potential for coercion and obvious (to me) thought control tactics in play.

Since I had outside jobs (moonlighting) during the years I was on staff, my resume is continuous and doesn't need to show org "volunteer" positions.

[Leon]

I also found job applications foundered when revealing my Scientology past. So I started my own business activities and they went well. I also got involved in publicly recognised associations and contributed a lot there, serving on committees and all. From that I got offered jobs without having to apply or explain my past too much.

[Leon]

BTW I am 61 right now and a month ago an insurance company asked me to join them and then created a post just to have me in with them. Was quite cool.

[Terril park]

That is very true. When one does what one likes to do, it is easy to excel.

On my own time I have been running a Math Club at the local library since August 1995. I never promoted it, but people found out about it, and they came. I never charged any money for that activity. People continued to come because they were benefitting from it. They talked to others about it. It has been just word of mouth.

Out of this came requests for personal tutoring. I started to tutor for $25 per hour on my own time. I also started to prepare my own math materials with the experience from Math Club and tutoring. One of the problem kid I tutored did so well that he went to Harvard. My tutoring style is troubleshooting the difficulties in math. My EP is when the student no longer needs me, and I have worked toward getting that EP faster and faster.

When my brother-in-law immigrated to USA in 2003, I helped him start as a math tutor. That gave him some support and time to get used to the culture and system in USA. Today, he is well-settled on a computer job. His son is ready to graduate from the Stoneybrook University in NY next summer as a Mechanical Engineer. He already has a job lined up in Washington with Boeing Aircraft Company.

I got recognized at the Annual Luncheon of the local library last month as Volunteer of the Year. They are now doing an article on me in the local newspaper.

I have more people asking for me for tutoring than I have time. Today, I am charging $60 per hour for tutoring, yet the demand continues to grow. For people who cannot pay that much, and are in very much of a need, I sometimes charge half to none, or refer them to full-time math tutors who charge less. Other times I give them my self-developed materials at $25 per Milestone, or free, when I can't give them personal time.

I keep myself very busy helping others as much as I can.

.

My son has recently started mechnical engineering at Imperial College London. He got 100% on several of his math A level papers at school.
Taught himself the advanced math A-level as there is dearth of math teachers here in the UK and I gather the US also. Tutored others in maths at school.

Clearly a needed area. You fit right into " Special Zone plan " scenario. :)

[Vinaire]

My son has recently started mechnical engineering at Imperial College London. He got 100% on several of his math A level papers at school.
Taught himself the advanced math A-level as there is dearth of math teachers here in the UK and I gather the US also. Tutored others in maths at school.

Clearly a needed area. You fit right into " Special Zone plan " scenario. :)

Very well done to your son, and also to you as a caring dad.

.

[Voltaire's Child]

There are lots of things that are illegal to ask yet employers sometimes ask or they look and they can tell...like they can't ask you how old you are yet they can ask when you graduated high school or college. Then they are free to discriminate, for example, on basis of age, while saying you didn't get the job for another reason.

When J was in the service, we were routinely discriminated against anytime I tried to get a job in my field or take out a loan. I had an established credit history and job history but was treated like a subhuman due to J's being in the service. Employers used to yap on and on about J, what's his rank, etc. Finally I put a stop to it by going north just one county. Nobody there gave a flying leap what J did and I was able to get a decent full time job.

But see...there's stuff they'll do even if they're not supposed to.

Now as far as having been in Scn, if it was me (Well, I was in CofS, but I worked for non Scn companies the whole entire time so it didn't affect me), I would present it as "been there, done that. That was a chapter of my life that I'm living down, I've changed things, I'm not a member of the group." Usually, when I tell people I'm a former member of a cult, they're totally cool about it. Because it's EX, it's former.

I do not really understand why anyone would discriminate (other than some situation where you're trying to get a higher level military clearance) against an applicant for being FORMERLY in a group to which he no longer belongs, even if it's a group they think is really bad.

[Vinaire]

BTW I am 61 right now and a month ago an insurance company asked me to join them and then created a post just to have me in with them. Was quite cool.

Cool, indeed!

.

[gomorrhan]

There are lots of things that are illegal to ask yet employers sometimes ask or they look and they can tell...like they can't ask you how old you are yet they can ask when you graduated high school or college. Then they are free to discriminate, for example, on basis of age, while saying you didn't get the job for another reason.

When J was in the service, we were routinely discriminated against anytime I tried to get a job in my field or take out a loan. I had an established credit history and job history but was treated like a subhuman due to J's being in the service. Employers used to yap on and on about J, what's his rank, etc. Finally I put a stop to it by going north just one county. Nobody there gave a flying leap what J did and I was able to get a decent full time job.

But see...there's stuff they'll do even if they're not supposed to.

Now as far as having been in Scn, if it was me (Well, I was in CofS, but I worked for non Scn companies the whole entire time so it didn't affect me), I would present it as "been there, done that. That was a chapter of my life that I'm living down, I've changed things, I'm not a member of the group." Usually, when I tell people I'm a former member of a cult, they're totally cool about it. Because it's EX, it's former.

I do not really understand why anyone would discriminate (other than some situation where you're trying to get a higher level military clearance) against an applicant for being FORMERLY in a group to which he no longer belongs, even if it's a group they think is really bad.
The problem, in this case, Fluff, is that "once in the CIA, always in the CIA". That's what I think is causing the ongoing problems with psychology grad-schools. I can't think of anything else being a problem, because my grades were top-notch, and my papers were very well received, and I have hundreds of hours of outside study, including having already read their entire reading list for the whole grad-psych program.

:)

In other words, what reason outside academia could they have for refusing to accept me, since my academic credentials are better than about 97% of my competition?

[Zinjifar]

The problem, in this case, Fluff, is that "once in the CIA, always in the CIA". That's what I think is causing the ongoing problems with psychology grad-schools. I can't think of anything else being a problem, because my grades were top-notch, and my papers were very well received, and I have hundreds of hours of outside study, including having already read their entire reading list for the whole grad-psych program.

:)

In other words, what reason outside academia could they have for refusing to accept me, since my academic credentials are better than about 97% of my competition?

I'd be surprised if you were refused admission based solely on your time in Scn, but, I could see some places in the interview process that it could become a negative.

For example, 'Why are you interested in psychology?'
Ans. : 'I've always had an interest, and ended up stydying Scientology instead. Now that I'm out, I'm interested in psychology again.'

Ans.2 : 'I spent years studying Scientology and now I'd like to take advantage of that experience and help mainstream the techniques I learned as a therapist in Psychology'.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ans.2 might hurt your chances :)

Zinj

[gomorrhan]

My answer was actually different than either. My original interest in psychology began with an interest in hypnosis, when I was about eight or nine, due to my uncle practicing hypnosis to manage pain in his dental practice. The further I went through life, the more interested I got in things philosophical and psychological, particularly personality and motivation, but also perception and interpretation of perception.

The answer 2 you gave is applicable, except that it's not an effort to mainstream techniques I learned, so much as constructing a model which contains an explanation for the success of those techniques, or testing such a model.

Primarily, my goal in obtaining a psychology degree is to meet the licensing requirements to help people self-actualize and overcome psychological barriers to this. The only model of psychology which strongly appeals to me for this is REBT or CBT, which are consonant with what I've already seen to be effective.

No doubt the attitude that I already know how to help could be detrimental, though. I make it clear that I'm interested in learning anything that will help me be more effective at understanding people and administering aid, but my "knowingness" may be off-putting.

[Zinjifar]

The answer 2 you gave is applicable, except that it's not an effort to mainstream techniques I learned, so much as constructing a model which contains an explanation for the success of those techniques, or testing such a model.

Primarily, my goal in obtaining a psychology degree is to meet the licensing requirements to help people self-actualize and overcome psychological barriers to this. The only model of psychology which strongly appeals to me for this is REBT or CBT, which are consonant with what I've already seen to be effective.

No doubt the attitude that I already know how to help could be detrimental, though. I make it clear that I'm interested in learning anything that will help me be more effective at understanding people and administering aid, but my "knowingness" may be off-putting.

Witch Doctor applying as a student at Johns Hopkins:

'I was apprenticed to my uncle for 10 years and learned the basics of witch sniffing, exorcism and herbal medicine. In my own practice I've treated HIV, malaria and possession using this knowledge and of course, I have my own masks and rattles. However, in order to practice as a healer in this society, I apparently need some kind of license, so, here I am to get it. Naturally, if I happen to learn something useful in my training, I will also incorporate it. Thank you very much.'

Zinj

[gomorrhan]

Not exactly the same thing, though Zinj.

The Witch doctor is practicing something which doesn't have an analog in conventional psychology, whereas I'm not.

Abreactive therapies might be controversial, but they have a long history in psychology, and are still part of it today, as are reframing, desensitization, cognitive flooding, and guided imagery, etc. Those aren't the words that scientology used, but they are the things that they were employing.

I see your point, but it's not dead-on.

[Zinjifar]

Not exactly the same thing, though Zinj.

The Witch doctor is practicing something which doesn't have an analog in conventional psychology, whereas I'm not.

Abreactive therapies might be controversial, but they have a long history in psychology, and are still part of it today, as are reframing, desensitization, cognitive flooding, and guided imagery, etc. Those aren't the words that scientology used, but they are the things that they were employing.

I see your point, but it's not dead-on.

The essence of parody is at least a *slight* exaggeration :) Dead on? Nah; probably not, but neither is your dismissal of our witch doctor here as 'not having an analog'. Nothing could be further from the truth; see 'herbal medicine' and 'alternative medicine', both of which are at least taken seriously in 'mainstream medicine', although, they're not wholly incorporated until they've passed actual testing on the level of 'normal' medical techniques.

Anyway, considering your answers here, I think it's obvious that it isn't your Scientology experience alone that raises red flags at graduate schools.

Still; you'll get the kind of 'license' you need to operate as a therapist, I'm assuming; just not one with a 'psychology' imprimatur.

Zinj

[gomorrhan]

Both herbal medicine and alternative therapies don't seem to have much to do with rattles and rituals invoking spirits, Zinj.

What you think is obvious and what is actually happening may be two very different things.

Of course the sorts of therapy I'm talking about can be seen in psychology, today, and not in any sort of "alternative" context (although they appear there, also). You are dismissing staples of psychology and pretending they're equivalent to rattles and chants.

BTW, there are numerous psychologists and social workers employing the techniques which I advocate. The psychology "imprimatur" is already quite correctly in place, actually, on those techniques. The question is whether or not I'll obtain a degree which confers it to my usage. I'm pretty sure I will, as I don't give up easily, and there are many more programs (and countries) for me to make my contribution.

[ExScnDude]

Part of my decision process in leaving the CoS many years ago consisted of looking at upper management orgs (I had spent quite a bit of time at them as an auditor and C/S).

These orgs (ASHO, AO, FLAG, ITO), promoted themselves heavily as being closest to source. Ergo, these orgs must more closely represent what the new civilization would look like if Scientology expanded rapidly across the planet.

Did I want to bring about a world where the inhabitants toiled like slaves subject to the whims of unqualified senior execs, who held their posts by virtue of the fact that they were only 13 years old and didn't have any "out qualifications"?

Did I want to revere and practically worship LRH, whose main function since the mid-60's was the president of the L. Ron Hubbard fan club. The guy behaved like a megalomaniac psychotic. I have first-hand accounts from several friends who worked with him directly?

Did I want to live in a world run by a group that is so blatantly money-motivated that they were willing to do just about anything for the almighty dollar?

Fascism definition Wikipedia
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party.

IMO, Scientology organizations are fascist by nature. Did I really want to support a group where the individual (except for DM) is emphatically and thoroughly made nothing of?

No brainer: No! No! No!

You learn in Scientology that the technology of Scientology is to be applied as a whole. It's off-policy and out-tech to just pick and choose what works for you and use just that. It's an all or nothing proposition. See HCO PL Safeguarding Technology.

Others: FreeZone folks, lone-dog searchers for truth, Unitarian types, and people spinning around so fast on the minute details of the subject that their heads are about to explode, may choose to apply (to the exclusion of the rest of the subject) this or that datum from Scientology. But when they do, this is not the all-inclusive subject defined by LRH. It is not Scientology by definition. Again, please refer to HCO PL Safeguarding Technology.

So, yeah - I left the entire subject in my past and moved on from there.

Scientology is Fascism hidden behind the cloak of religion.

[Alanzo]

Part of my decision process in leaving the CoS many years ago consisted of looking at upper management orgs (I had spent quite a bit of time at them as an auditor and C/S).

These orgs (ASHO, AO, FLAG, ITO), promoted themselves heavily as being closest to source. Ergo, these orgs must more closely represent what the new civilization would look like if Scientology expanded rapidly across the planet.

Did I want to bring about a world where the inhabitants toiled like slaves subject to the whims of unqualified senior execs, who held their posts by virtue of the fact that they were only 13 years old and didn't have any "out qualifications"?

Did I want to revere and practically worship LRH, whose main function since the mid-60's was the president of the L. Ron Hubbard fan club. The guy behaved like a megalomaniac psychotic. I have first-hand accounts from several friends who worked with him directly?

Did I want to live in a world run by a group that is so blatantly money-motivated that they were willing to do just about anything for the almighty dollar?

Fascism definition Wikipedia
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party.

IMO, Scientology organizations are fascist by nature. Did I really want to support a group where the individual (except for DM) is emphatically and thoroughly made nothing of?

No brainer: No! No! No!

You learn in Scientology that the technology of Scientology is to be applied as a whole. It's off-policy and out-tech to just pick and choose what works for you and use just that. It's an all or nothing proposition. See HCO PL Safeguarding Technology.

Others: FreeZone folks, lone-dog searchers for truth, Unitarian types, and people spinning around so fast on the minute details of the subject that their heads are about to explode, may choose to apply (to the exclusion of the rest of the subject) this or that datum from Scientology. But when they do, this is not the all-inclusive subject defined by LRH. It is not Scientology by definition. Again, please refer to HCO PL Safeguarding Technology.

So, yeah - I left the entire subject in my past and moved on from there.

Scientology is Fascism hidden behind the cloak of religion.

A Fucking Men

[Free to shine]

A Fucking Men

Wot he said!

[Voltaire's Child]

I've no doubt that LRH meant all or nothing, sure, but in actual fact, if you look up Scn'ist in the technical dictionary, it defines Scn'ist as s/one who uses Scn in his or her life.

Quantity/degree are unspecified.

I'm running with it and still refer to myself as such.

Why?

Because I'm having my own Protestant Reformation right heah, folks.

[ExScnDude]

I've no doubt that LRH meant all or nothing, sure, but in actual fact, if you look up Scn'ist in the technical dictionary, it defines Scn'ist as s/one who uses Scn in his or her life.

Quantity/degree are unspecified.

I'm running with it and still refer to myself as such.

Why?

Because I'm having my own Protestant Reformation right heah, folks.

Not to be too ungodly anal about this: the definition you cite does not contradict what I have said. ..."s/one who uses Scn in hs or her life" does mean exactly someone who applies all of Scientology, the entire subject, according to HCO PL Safeguarding Technology and HCO PL Keeping
Scientology Working.

It seems fairly clear to me that one uses the term Scientology, one is referring to Scientology as defined in those two issues.

But, feel free to use whatever definition you want, as over time, when the general usage of the term as defined by you is in common use, we can add another number to Webster's. :)

[nw2394]

No doubt the attitude that I already know how to help could be detrimental, though. I make it clear that I'm interested in learning anything that will help me be more effective at understanding people and administering aid, but my "knowingness" may be off-putting.

I find that the academic world tends to be mainly interested in people who will regurgitate what the professor says. People who know stuff already are likely to have their papers marked with red pen for spelling mistakes and such crap.

Nick

[Zinjifar]

But, feel free to use whatever definition you want, as over time, when the general usage of the term as defined by you is in common use, we can add another number to Webster's. :)

Just don't try to tell the mooches that 'Fluffy Scientology' is Scientology as it exists or as Ron Intended.

Zinj

[gomorrhan]

I find that the academic world tends to be mainly interested in people who will regurgitate what the professor says. People who know stuff already are likely to have their papers marked with red pen for spelling mistakes and such crap.

Nick
That was my experience in college, Nick. So long as I exactly understood the professor's interpretation of the work that we were studying, and could reword it so that it wasn't too transparent that I was just regurgitating that, I always got straight As. So that's what I did. Where the subjects were hard science and math was the only exception, in which I also got As (in my latter college appearances: early on, I failed a lot because I wasn't tracking: I was just checking out chicks, partying, and showing up for the occasional exam). Those subjects, actually, were much easier, because you didn't have to kiss ass or pretend you shared a viewpoint with a prof.

[Bea Kiddo]

I don't relate Scientology with "experience" for some reason.

Not at all.

More like, lessen learned.

I am sure that there are things that I gained from it. There are alos things that I did not gain, or, in effect, lost, by being in it.

So we are even steven, I guess.

[nw2394]

Where the subjects were hard science and math was the only exception, in which I also got As (in my latter college appearances: early on, I failed a lot because I wasn't tracking: I was just checking out chicks, partying, and showing up for the occasional exam). Those subjects, actually, were much easier, because you didn't have to kiss ass or pretend you shared a viewpoint with a prof.

Well some hard science is at least relatively free from that sort of thing.

However, I found on a course about database systems (computer technology of a kind) I was really at odds with what they were teaching. The course said do this and that and so on. And I damn well knew that if I did "this" it would take twice as long and if I did "that" it would take twice as many people. And the product at the end was likely to be poor, so take even more time and money to fix. And, worse, by the time a really good product was produced the goal posts would have moved anyway. But do you think you can tell that to a someone who thinks they are a teacher of some kind? Wow.

Nick

[Zinjifar]

I don't relate Scientology with "experience" for some reason.

Not at all.

More like, lessen learned.

I am sure that there are things that I gained from it. There are alos things that I did not gain, or, in effect, lost, by being in it.

So we are even steven, I guess.

It's like a pimple. You get it; eventually it goes away and, hopefully, it doesn't leave a scar. You could get something out of it, but, would you want to *keep* it?

Zinj

[The Oracle]

That is very true. When one does what one likes to do, it is easy to excel.

On my own time I have been running a Math Club at the local library since August 1995. I never promoted it, but people found out about it, and they came. I never charged any money for that activity. People continued to come because they were benefitting from it. They talked to others about it. It has been just word of mouth.

Out of this came requests for personal tutoring. I started to tutor for $25 per hour on my own time. I also started to prepare my own math materials with the experience from Math Club and tutoring. One of the problem kid I tutored did so well that he went to Harvard. My tutoring style is troubleshooting the difficulties in math. My EP is when the student no longer needs me, and I have worked toward getting that EP faster and faster.

When my brother-in-law immigrated to USA in 2003, I helped him start as a math tutor. That gave him some support and time to get used to the culture and system in USA. Today, he is well-settled on a computer job. His son is ready to graduate from the Stoneybrook University in NY next summer as a Mechanical Engineer. He already has a job lined up in Washington with Boeing Aircraft Company.

I got recognized at the Annual Luncheon of the local library last month as Volunteer of the Year. They are now doing an article on me in the local newspaper.

I have more people asking for me for tutoring than I have time. Today, I am charging $60 per hour for tutoring, yet the demand continues to grow. For people who cannot pay that much, and are in very much of a need, I sometimes charge half to none, or refer them to full-time math tutors who charge less. Other times I give them my self-developed materials at $25 per Milestone, or free, when I can't give them personal time.

I keep myself very busy helping others as much as I can.

.

You come from a culture where people take a lot of pride in accomplishment instead of looks and personality. Probably a key point as to why you and your brother have been so successful with your goals and routines. I used to get my foot in the door with the looks and personality but I had to blow people away with results to go to sleep at night. I always knew that would be the bigger matter in the end, and it was. But I was always in a hot seat, I had to have results by the minute, everything I did. But a lot of people take on work with the "I'll do what I can get away with" attitude. They think life is what you can get away with. If you focus on stellar results you can go anywhere and be a success. Well done on your math endeavors.

T.I.

[The Oracle]

It's like a pimple. You get it; eventually it goes away and, hopefully, it doesn't leave a scar. You could get something out of it, but, would you want to *keep* it?

Zinj

Oh yeah Babe. Once I pay for something it's mine. I own it. I don't throw away anything. I am one big giant sponge. It takes work to live a life. I don't toss any of it.

T.I.

[Voltaire's Child]

Well, as I said, if degree or quantity is not specified, then the parameters are adjustable.

[Björkist]

I don't go out of my way to talk about it, or to withhold it, either.

I was waiting in line for a concert and a group of people in front of my wife and I started talking about how Tom Cruise was going to be anointed as the "Jesus Christ" of Scientology.

We just gave each other "the eye" and laughed because we have seen it too often where TV children yak it up about what they think they know about Scientology (and indeed, other subjects).

If it ever comes up between myself and "people in positions of responsibility" (school, employment, etc.) I just mention that I have been involved with a very controversial group and am no longer involved. I also make light of it (the "everything happens for a reason" or "even a negative experience can turn out to be a positive one" type thing) and sometimes even crack a joke if the situation warrants it.

If the person cares to distinguish between the group and the subject (which is sometimes hard for the addle-brained) I will give my opinions on "the tech" as well.

The only times I have had negative confrontations, however, are on a personal level, and of course thos unfold quite differently than when trying to please someone in an "authority position".

[everfree]

One of the mistakes I made in my approach to being on staff is I didn't develope my non-scn career. I was a very "on purpose" staff member for most of my tenure and wanted to "make it go right" so I could make helping others through Scn my career.

Thus, the moonlight jobs I took were all miscellaneous jobs with Scnists who let me put staff first so I could come in on Thursday mornings, come in late when I was up until 3 or 4 am doing letter writing/all hands bulk mail, let me have my job back after going away for training, etc.

I also tried various things such as forgoing moonlighting altogether to come in for training during my off hours in order to "boom my org" and get it to pay me or try to sell IAS memberships during the day for the commission so I could be "doing Scientology" all day.

As a result, I eventually woke up to the fact that I had a baby on the way but no cohesive career that I could use to support myself unless I wanted to do the odd salesjob which didn't appeal to me at all.

In many ways, I was like a 20 year old in the shoes of a 30 year old, just starting out in life. Especially since I'd learned first hand that one's Scientological connections could be used for extortion by any exec with half a mind to do so via threat of declare and disconnection, I knew I had to scramble to get a real career going outside of the CofS.

If I have one regret about how I handled my involvement in CofS, it was that I didn't pay attention to such things earlier. I just "knew" that CofS would take over the earth so I didn't need to, and that of course management would eventually see to it that staff was paid a living wage. No group intending benefit to mankind could neglect their staff forever, could they?

For a long while I had to include CofS on my resume because it was all I had to demonstrate many of the job skills I possessed.

At one point I went in for an interview at a staffing agency for a temp to hire job. The interviewer laughed and said, "The Church of Scientology, really? Have you met Tom Cruise? I don't think I can use it as job experience for this position..."

I'm pretty sure she broke some labor type laws by doing so, but needed to get a good job more than I needed to get into a legal war so I let it go and just went elsewhere.

There were other difficulties involved in getting established in the outside world but now I'm doing quite well and enough time has passed where I can leave that portion of my life off my resume.

In all the intervening time I've only mentioned my past CofS to a couple very close co-workers.

For any CofS staffers lurking out there, you would be wise to pay attention to your outside career, you can avoid many future troubles that way.

[Voltaire's Child]

Yeah, what Everfree said!

This is totally true- you need to develop your outside skills as much as you can.

I know it's hard and if someone's in the SO, damn near impossible...but if you're public or Class V Org or Mission staff, do your best to develop your non Scn job career. (Notice I don't say "wog job". )

Our jobs are how we put food on the table and a roof over our heads.

[Ralph Hilton]

I was, before I left, a course sup in ITO and before that an engineer on the ship.
For the time on the ship I put down occupation as engineer and my employer as Operation and Transport Co. of Panama whisch was the company name used by the Apollo.
Then I put down my employer at Flag as the International Training Organization, Clearwater Fla. and occupation as management training supervisor. That way all I said was true but there was no need to mention Scientology. I got job offers from both the companies I first applied to after spending a few months training as a computer programmer and ended up working for British Telecom.

[beyond_horizons]

I never really considered myself to be 'in' scientology. And I generally don't talk about politics, sex or religion in the workplace. Actually Human Resources has policies against it.

For all those years I dabbled with it ,off and on, the subject never came up in the workplace nor with my family, other than with my current wife!

[programmer_guy]

I was, before I left, a course sup in ITO and before that an engineer on the ship.
For the time on the ship I put down occupation as engineer and my employer as Operation and Transport Co. of Panama whisch was the company name used by the Apollo.
Then I put down my employer at Flag as the International Training Organization, Clearwater Fla. and occupation as management training supervisor. That way all I said was true but there was no need to mention Scientology. I got job offers from both the companies I first applied to after spending a few months training as a computer programmer and ended up working for British Telecom.

You seem to have acquired quite a lot of knowledge on electronics and computer hardware (not so much software). Where/how did you learn this? Just curious.

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Fortunately, I was young enough, and my time on staff short enough for the gap in my résumé to be relatively un-noticeable. Where I list my general skills, I include things like phone, typing etc., but if anyone asks about that gap I respond, "I believe the standard answer is: I can tell you, but then I would have to kill you." :whistling:

[Bea Kiddo]

Fortunately, I was young enough, and my time on staff short enough for the gap in my résumé to be relatively un-noticeable. Where I list my general skills, I include things like phone, typing etc., but if anyone asks about that gap I respond, "I believe the standard answer is: I can tell you, but then I would have to kill you." :whistling:

For some reason this reminded me of a funny/silly story from when I was on exams.

Someone had done the Sup course and needed to take a test on it, I believe it was for routing onto the Internship.

He took the test and some paper and came back about 5 minutes later, turning in the test to me. He had written the answer to every single question" "What do your materials state".

He didnt want to give verbal data!!!

:dieslaughing:

(I thought it was funny...)

[Royal Prince Xenu]

For some reason this reminded me of a funny/silly story from when I was on exams.

Someone had done the Sup course and needed to take a test on it, I believe it was for routing onto the Internship.

He took the test and some paper and came back about 5 minutes later, turning in the test to me. He had written the answer to every single question" "What do your materials state".

He didnt want to give verbal data!!!

:dieslaughing:

(I thought it was funny...)

(I know an accountant who fills in boxes on taxation forms as NOYB: None of your business. If you leave a box blank, they'll always send the form back, but by writing something in the box, they accept it without question...)

That reminds me of a class story. At the beginning of the year, the teacher passed around a piece of paper for everyone to write their names down, and some joker added a fake name, like "John Smith".

This "John Smith" had an exemplary record. Someone always called "present" at roll call, and different people colluded to make sure that all of his assignments were handed in on time. It was only when he failed to show up for the exams, that someone realized they had been duped.

[Bea Kiddo]

(I know an accountant who fills in boxes on taxation forms as NOYB: None of your business. If you leave a box blank, they'll always send the form back, but by writing something in the box, they accept it without question...)

That reminds me of a class story. At the beginning of the year, the teacher passed around a piece of paper for everyone to write their names down, and some joker added a fake name, like "John Smith".

This "John Smith" had an exemplary record. Someone always called "present" at roll call, and different people colluded to make sure that all of his assignments were handed in on time. It was only when he failed to show up for the exams, that someone realized they had been duped.

That's awesome!!! :clap: :dieslaughing:

[Idle Morgue]

Yes, leaving the Church has ended my association with Scientology! The tech that works is called common sense. There was not much past ARC, KRC, condition formulas, WTH. I found the ORG board extremely frustrating and confusing. I have a very succesful business which I created by myself w/ NO LRH TECH. Once I got into the Cult, it invalidated what I had created and for me, made me feel like a loser that I did not have a fully manned and trained Org Board!!

I had so many problems whilst in the Cult with wog friends never speaking to me again once I told them I was in the Cult, work - people would boycott me at all costs - I found myself hiding my books when anyone came to my house or business office.

I am very social and have tons of friends (only a few knew I was in the Cult and they disconnected from me - so I stopped telling anyone I was in the Cult) My life became so isolated - I felt totally disconnected from living life, getting pleasure out of anything, disconnected from the reality of others - could not stand anyone except the cult members that never talked - YUCK!! :screwy::puke2: