Is Scientology.org down?

[Zinjifar]

Attempts to browse to http://www.scientology.org or http://www.dianetics.org or http://www.rtc.org fail.

Even a 'whois' lookup returns nothing, yet, some subdomains, such as http://theology.scientology.org still function.

A traceroute returns a breakdown immediately following:

(ge-9-1.hsa1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net ok)

Strange in any case.

It's not all that strange that Level3 might have problems, but, even when it does, that usually doesn't affect 'whois'.

Anyway, wise.org, cchr.org and narconon.org still seem to be up and running, although rtc.org is *also* down....

Zinj

[Free to shine]

Weird - why would that be happening?

[Zinjifar]

Weird - why would that be happening?

too soon to say. Scientology.org finally came up for me. Once. But now, not again. Same with Dianetics.org. Even if a server were down, the 'whois' should show the domain registration, and, the subdomains of a 'down' domain shouldn't come up.

I dunno. But, it's weird.

Zinj

[Emma]

Hackers?

[Zinjifar]

Hackers?

shouldn't be able to affect crsnic.net and its 'whois' server.

I dunno. If the domain itself were down, due to a DNS error or lapsed registration, then the *subdomains* like theology.scientology.org shouldn't work either.

I'm not really technically into this so far, but, whatever's happening seems weird, even for a glitsch.

Maybe the raids are happening :)

Zinj

[namaste]

Attempts to browse to http://www.scientology.org or http://www.dianetics.org or http://www.rtc.org fail.

I would say keep trying. You'll get it eventually.

[Zinjifar]

I would say keep trying. You'll get it eventually.

Will pennicillin help once acquired?

Zinj

[programmer_guy]

Zinj,

There are several possibilities for temporary lack of response from web servers.

1. a few of the servers are temporarily down for maintenance, so, low bandwidth

2. a huge amount of hits due to a recent news story or scandal

3. a deliberate DDoS attack

Without specific news reports on this particular item, there is no way of knowing.

[Div6]

Maybe DM is having a psychotic break....

[Dulloldfart]

Attempts to browse to http://www.scientology.org or http://www.dianetics.org or http://www.rtc.org fail.



They all work now.

Paul

[Tanstaafl]

We are Anonymous
We do not forgive
We do not forget
We are legion

"We are legion" - a CoS critic dramatising BTs - how ironic is that?!

Where's Jesus when you need him? :melodramatic:

[Fancy]

It is not working now.

Barb

[Anondelivers]

It is not working now.

Barb

It goes up and down, they have strong servers...
Be around 6 PM EST tomorrow and i can assure you that it is down for several hours.
Its not that easy to fight a multi-billion dollar organization with 0 resources.

[alex]

We are Anonymous
We do not forgive
We do not forget
We are legion

Borg?

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

:lol:

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

It goes up and down, they have strong servers...
Be around 6 PM EST tomorrow and i can assure you that it is down for several hours.
Its not that easy to fight a multi-billion dollar organization with 0 resources.

How important are those websites to them? Seems sort of a catch 22, the internet, from the viewpoint of CofS execs.

[programmer_guy]

We'll see what happens on Monday evening - as they have said.

[alex]

Heres the link one of "them" posted here on esmb earlier...

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Operation__CoSplay/index.php?act=SC&c=1

They also plan to plug the toilets in all the orgs with tea bags dosed with sugar and yeast.

Nastier, they have lists of hideous photos of dead bodies and extreme sex to fax to the orgs.

And they are calling the media! (sarcasm)

Personally I think they project some of their own reliance on the 'net, onto scientology, as the sites they target are mostly pr, not the operations of the church.

The church has its business and email functions on private networks not the web. (and they are not linked in any way)

What they are doing is using scripts to download all the images from the various sites continuously, thus using all the bandwith.

It looks like some workaround is in place, as even though the images dont load, the pages and links still function.

But Hurt the church by making its website unavailable?

No.

Just annoy!

Fun to watch, the enthusiasm of youth attacking what they barely understand.

alex

[Zinjifar]

Fun to watch, the enthusiasm of youth attacking what they barely understand.

alex

If they weren't idiots, they'd realize how valuable *self-promoted* Scientology is to exposing the less promoted aspects :)

Zinj

[MissDorfl]

We are Anonymous
We do not forgive
We do not forget
We are legion
:drama2:


Gads, what a hive mentality.
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/musik/e055.gif

[Dulloldfart]

For the first time, scientology.org is down for me, at this moment.

Paul

[Zinjifar]

For the first time, scientology.org is down for me, at this moment.

Paul

The OTs are too busy changing the text of Morton's book to snippets from 'The Way to Happiness' and 'What is Scientology?'

Zinj

[Alanzo]

It's up for me - at this moment of now.

[ExScnDude]

We are Anonymous
We do not forgive
We do not forget
We are legion

Is there a Catholic priest in the audience?

[Zinjifar]

Is there a Catholic priest in the audience?

Will an altar boy and seminary escapee do?

I may not effectively bless water, but, I can take a drop from a baptysmal font and fil a 5 gallon jug to sqiirt gun every demon or vampire available...

Zinj

[alex]

Zinj,

Let me know when I can claim religious discrimination...

I know, not yet.

But its heading that way with this ignorant shit.

alex

[Zinjifar]

Zinj,

Let me know when I can claim religious discrimination...

I know, not yet.

But its heading that way with this ignorant shit.

alex

You're kidding me; right?

'Religious Discrimination' certainly applies to the government, and, thanks to legal strictures, to public corporations and even people operating within legally regulated industries.

Are these idiots any of the above? Or, do you consider it 'discrimination' because your particular 'religion' happens to have attracted their 'attention'.

Ahem. Do I think their 'operation' is a good thing? You know better. Scientology is nothing more publicly than the 'science of whining about being oppressed'.

Youse guys *luv* this stuff; even though you 'pull it in'. And, you do. You deserve it, even if the people pointing to your actual *crimes* know damn well that you and yours will whine and cry and wail about your being victimized ruthless supermen :)

You putz

If you want to talk about religious *discrimination*, well, listen to this:

I cannot conceive of a Scientologist allowed a position of trust, such as a teacher, a banker or anyone with access to confidential information, much less any kind of local or national governmental position because, per KSW, the 'Church' of Scientology is *senior* to any other trust.

I do not consider it religoius discrimination to recognize that a Scientologist *must* defer to Scientology when in conflict with secular office.

A Scientologist *must* put Scientology first, or he is not a Scientologist. This includes any case where he must swear an oath and there is a *conflict of interest* with Scientology. In such a case, a Scientologiist *must* lie; perjure; obstruct justice etc.

To recognize that is not 'religious discrimination', it's purely sane.

Zinj

[Fancy]

The church will have that website taken down.

I had one there and they had it taken down. I really did not care if they did nor not. It was not being used anyhow so I and IFA did nothing about it.

They won nothing on that round as I hear.

Barb


Heres the link one of "them" posted here on esmb earlier...

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Operation__CoSplay/index.php?act=SC&c=1

They also plan to plug the toilets in all the orgs with tea bags dosed with sugar and yeast.

Nastier, they have lists of hideous photos of dead bodies and extreme sex to fax to the orgs.

And they are calling the media! (sarcasm)

Personally I think they project some of their own reliance on the 'net, onto scientology, as the sites they target are mostly pr, not the operations of the church.

The church has its business and email functions on private networks not the web. (and they are not linked in any way)

What they are doing is using scripts to download all the images from the various sites continuously, thus using all the bandwith.

It looks like some workaround is in place, as even though the images dont load, the pages and links still function.

But Hurt the church by making its website unavailable?

No.

Just annoy!

Fun to watch, the enthusiasm of youth attacking what they barely understand.

alex

[Zinjifar]

The church will have that website taken down.

I had one there and they had it taken down. I really did not care if they did nor not. It was not being used anyhow so I and IFA did nothing about it.

They won nothing on that round as I hear.

Barb

Alex wants stories of Scientologists mauled by lions. He doesn't want to be mauled, and, he doesn't think any lions are going to specifically go after clams, but, he *wants* the stories.

It's his reality :) Despite how 'accepted' Scientology is nowdays, while it goes 'mainstream'....

ahem

Zinj

[Pascal]

Seems like the COS is finally getting it's due. Attracking attention from hackers. Then more evils minions will pounce, etc...

It's normal. The COS has failed in it's mission and now people are ripping it apart. Just like a lame auditor gets cans in his face after a while.

Sorry David, you aren't OT enough and never will be. Accept it and get help before it's too late you moron! :p

[Pascal]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_website_being_attacked_by_ha ckers

[programmer_guy]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_website_being_attacked_by_ha ckers

So, I guess that this doesn't require a botnet.

See this:
http://www.aseforums.com/viewtopic.php?topicid=4969

Some Info on Gigaloader:
http://del.icio.us/url/1d6be6805785968a7d3d083f5a0c8b6b?settagview=list

[Dulloldfart]

I cannot conceive of a Scientologist allowed a position of trust, such as a teacher, a banker or anyone with access to confidential information, much less any kind of local or national governmental position because, per KSW, the 'Church' of Scientology is *senior* to any other trust.

I do not consider it religoius discrimination to recognize that a Scientologist *must* defer to Scientology when in conflict with secular office.

A Scientologist *must* put Scientology first, or he is not a Scientologist. This includes any case where he must swear an oath and there is a *conflict of interest* with Scientology. In such a case, a Scientologiist *must* lie; perjure; obstruct justice etc.

To recognize that is not 'religious discrimination', it's purely sane.



Totally correct, Zinj. I agree 100%. Not one of your twaddle-moments. :)

For the record, for me right now scientology.org and dianetics.org are both completely down. The dianetics one was up for me the last time I mentioned the main one was down on this thread, so it looks like it's got worse for them.

Paul

[alex]

Yesterday I posted a quote from the hackers web site. A site I went to after finding a link to it here on esmb, in a post by one of the "anons", which is what they call themselves.

Emma deleted it as I had failed to make clear that it was something I was exposing rather than something I was promoting. It contained references to illegal acts planned against the church.

I was also called an asshole and a cock sucker by this boards resident bouncer/cop/snitch.

But truth requires looking at the whole of the situation, both sides of a conflict, all the data, and that was my intent in posting the stratagey that the hackers are following. I believe it is valuable to know as much as possible about as many things as possible. Perhaps where I focus is not as well directed as it could be, but.....I mean well.

So from one of the hacker boards:

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Operation__CoSplay/index.php?showtopic=179

A snyopsis of their strategy including illeagal acts.




THEY HAVE PHONES!

Our first phone target is the Dianetics hotline:

1-800-367-8788

Call it, and Rickroll them, ask them why theres a Volcano on the cover of Dianetics, ask to speak to high-profile Scientologists, and just generally bug the hell out of them.

This is phase 1.


Phase 2

We set up shell sites. This is where the most richest and Elite of /b/tards come in.

Simply put, we place all of the known facts of Scientology, and its inner workings onto it, in one repeating flash video, and we both digg it, upload it to YouTube under various names, as well as upload it to YouPorn and several other places. By then, they should take notice.

Also, email it to them.

This is phase 2.


Phase 3.

By the time the video circulates around the internet, and eventually leaking onto news stations like Fox and CNN, the shell site that we say that we come from will get a cease and desist letter from a Scientology lawyer, including the persons name, phone number, place of employment, and fax number.

This is where we bring the big guns out. We Harass the lawyer, and his/her Lawfirm: We call them, fax them Goatse and other shit, and complain to her/his boss that she/he is a crack whore/rapist/nigger/ whatever.

Scientology will begin to counter attack.

This is Phase 3.


Phase 4

This is where it all hangs out. This is the Climax of everything. This is where the most Elite, the ones who actually know what they're talking about begin their line of work.

Getting into the scientologist system will take time and effort. This will take more than just sitting in your basement whacking it to Hentai while you make crank calls and use gigaloader.

Whoever will complete this will be a god in the eyes of Anonymous.

One of us must get into a Church of Scientology. Preferably a small one in a small town some where, run by only a few people.

Bring along with you a flash drive with Keylogger in it. You must do whatever is possible to get behind the front desk.

Get someone to distract the people at the front desk. While they are busy, sneak to the tower of the computer under the desk, load the keylogger, and let it sit. Walk out, and come back in a day or two.

This is Phase 4.


Phase 5

The select individual mentioned before will go back to their local CoS.

Using the same technique, get the flash drive and the contents of teh keylogger, and make sure you wipe the logger form teh comp. They'll usually have little to no virus protection.

more than likely, you'll have the passwords and usernames for at least one of the employees.

More than likely, they'll have wireless internet set up, so bring a laptop. Hide somewhere outside the CoS building and connect to the net using their wireless. You'll now be using their IP.

On the keylogger, you should also get a link or something that will take you to the OL database of scientologist within that area.

You should be prompted for a username and password, and it will verify it through your IP.

Log in, and search around for a record of Current and former Scientologists in the area, and see if you can cause general havoc with them.

Copy and paste the list of Scientologist and their numbers/addresses and emails etc and post it into a new .txt.

Get teh fuck out of there, the cops may be alerted.

This is phase 5.


Phase 6

Take the list you gathered, get it on your main comp, and place it in a rar, and embed it into a peice of JB.

Everyone, this next part is important. We must all keep this in teh back of our minds.

You will post the image on /b/, in a new thread.

You will post this in the text field: "Itty Bitty Baby Boats Farter than Bob"

This will be the code word. All Anon will proceed to download the image, open the rar, and begin to call the numbers listed.

Scientology will not be pleased.

This is phase 6.


Aditional Info:

Description: �‚

Some Hak5 fans put together a USB app where when you plug it in, it steals the Internet Explorer history and saved form information, IM passwords, email passwords, XP password hashes, and product keys!

Keep in mind it does all of this in seconds, all in the background. So you literally walk up to a computer, plug it in, unplug it, and walk away. Or you say that you need to get a document off of your USB drive, whatever.

Note that the computer has to be logged in as an administrator to do some of this, but pretty much all computers are.


Downloads:

If you have a U3 compatable USB drive: http://www.users.on.net/~simmo_89/switchblade/V2.0BETA2.zip

If you don't: http://www.hak5.org/packages/files/Switchb...liv-1-3-0-1.zip



They plan commercial burglary, putting devices on church computers and stealing lists of "scientologists" to harass.

They plan to install key loggers and steal passwords.

The plan to clog the toilets!

And disgustingly they plan to fax "goatse" to the orgs.

Goatse is disturbing images of squashed bodies and extreme sex.

Such as at: http://www.rafflelot.com/images/

WARNING VERY DISTURBING.

So, is this deserving of support? The hacker method, or does it remind anyone of the very same "fair game" tactics reputed to be used by the church?

Its a challenging game to bring truth, love and sanity to life as we know it, and maybe I am not in the best position to do the most good, but I dont see the ends justifying the means in the hacker path either. Just more opterm in an inherently two terminal universe, when love is a one terminal state.

alex

[Free to shine]

Its a challenging game to bring truth, love and sanity to life as we know it, and maybe I am not in the best position to do the most good, but I dont see the ends justifying the means in the hacker path either.

alex

I see absolutely NO reason to post that info here.
I think it would be a good idea to at least edit out the direct paste so if anyone wants the full picture they can follow a link.
I agree that what happened in chat was over the top.
That's no reason to respond and bring hate to this board with this post - it is certainly does not bring truth, love and sanity. There is plenty of info out there on what's going on if you want to find it - this isn't the place.

[lionheart]

Alex, do you perhaps think that the CofS is reaping what it has sowed?

You say you are looking at both sides of the conflict, so you will agree that the CofS' years of abuse, intimidation, threats and worse is now coming back to haunt them.

Hubbard's own illegal black ops are being used against them. Looks like these guys have learned Ron's GO/OSA tech pretty well!

[Dulloldfart]

I agree that all that is better not posted here. A link would work just as well.

I love the bit about putting "all of the known facts of Scientology, and its inner workings, in one repeating flash video". If nothing else, that should convince people in the CofS that this isn't coming from any ex-Scio or usual critic! Unless they've started making 1 TB Flash videos.

Maybe someone should tell them that the names of the richest and most prominent public Scientologists are readily available online in lists of high-level completions and IAS hot-shot donors. I don't see their current plan to be that workable, unless someone working at a Cont- or Int-level org copies the address-list. That would be illegal, anyway. I don't agree with harassing these people by sending them violent and/or pornographic images, but informing them of some truths about the CofS can't be worse than borderline objectionable. After all, they have to take some responsibility for continuing to support the CofS--they can't be totally blind to the abuses.

Paul

[nw2394]

So, is this deserving of support?...


No, of course not.


Its a challenging game to bring truth, love and sanity to life as we know it, and maybe I am not in the best position to do the most good, but I dont see the ends justifying the means in the hacker path either. Just more opterm in an inherently two terminal universe, when love is a one terminal state.


The "church" you refer to has written policy, for example, to use the court system, not to win genuine cases, but to harass. A policy which it follows. It therefore, by admission of it own policy and actions, abuses something that the rest of us think (perhaps naively) as a right of citizenship.

Does such a "church" have a right to claim being a victim of harassment?

Certainly you cannot just sit there and claim that the CoS is simply and innocently trying "to bring truth".

Nick

[alex]

I see absolutely NO reason to post that info here.
I think it would be a good idea to at least edit out the direct paste so if anyone wants the full picture they can follow a link.
I agree that what happened in chat was over the top.
That's no reason to respond and bring hate to this board with this post - it is certainly does not bring truth, love and sanity. There is plenty of info out there on what's going on if you want to find it - this isn't the place.

I think it is on topic in the thread and enlightening. The people who posted it are registered here and posting also, so knowing the mentality of these new players is important.


Chat was fun. I hadnt been live bullbaited in a while.

Its not my hate that the post is about, and it IS part of the truth. I'm sorry though that you were unhappy about it. That was not my intent.

I find it fascinating.

alex

[alex]

You're kidding me; right?

'Religious Discrimination' certainly applies to the government, and, thanks to legal strictures, to public corporations and even people operating within legally regulated industries.

Are these idiots any of the above? Or, do you consider it 'discrimination' because your particular 'religion' happens to have attracted their 'attention'.

Ahem. Do I think their 'operation' is a good thing? You know better. Scientology is nothing more publicly than the 'science of whining about being oppressed'.

Youse guys *luv* this stuff; even though you 'pull it in'. And, you do. You deserve it, even if the people pointing to your actual *crimes* know damn well that you and yours will whine and cry and wail about your being victimized ruthless supermen :)

You putz

If you want to talk about religious *discrimination*, well, listen to this:

I cannot conceive of a Scientologist allowed a position of trust, such as a teacher, a banker or anyone with access to confidential information, much less any kind of local or national governmental position because, per KSW, the 'Church' of Scientology is *senior* to any other trust.

I do not consider it religoius discrimination to recognize that a Scientologist *must* defer to Scientology when in conflict with secular office.

A Scientologist *must* put Scientology first, or he is not a Scientologist. This includes any case where he must swear an oath and there is a *conflict of interest* with Scientology. In such a case, a Scientologiist *must* lie; perjure; obstruct justice etc.

To recognize that is not 'religious discrimination', it's purely sane.

Zinj

Nope. Not kidding.

Zinj, there are already scientologists running banks, holding public office, teaching and such. Your assertion that they would defer to the church is absurd.

I had a government security clearance with the full knowledge of the FBI that I was a scientologist.

You would be surprised to find scientologist in the media, law, and commerce functioning just as every other citizen, with out conflict and with out problems. Its the scientologists you dont see who are making the changes.

alex

[alex]

Alex, do you perhaps think that the CofS is reaping what it has sowed?

Sure.




yea.

[QUOTE=lionheart;58504Hubbard's own illegal black ops are being used against them. Looks like these guys have learned Ron's GO/OSA tech pretty well!

Newer better faster. Does not make it right. It will just solidify the church, make it tougher, and more reactive. Now there is evidence that "the SPs" are attacking. How do you think this will play internally? SP mentality is my guess.

alex

[alex]

I agree that all that is better not posted here. A link would work just as well.

I love the bit about putting "all of the known facts of Scientology, and its inner workings, in one repeating flash video". If nothing else, that should convince people in the CofS that this isn't coming from any ex-Scio or usual critic! Unless they've started making 1 TB Flash videos.

It struck me immediately how uninformed the anons were....


totally[/U] blind to the abuses.

Paul

I have no problem with what the anons do that is legal. The CoS site will have better defenses in a couple weeks. A valuable lesson. But they really have no clue about scientology and probably will in the short term make "critics" look bad by association.

Its all a needless opterm game from both sides.

In the words of the great american philosopher Rodney King, "why cant we all just get along?".

alex

[alex]

No, of course not.



The "church" you refer to has written policy, for example, to use the court system, not to win genuine cases, but to harass. A policy which it follows. It therefore, by admission of it own policy and actions, abuses something that the rest of us think (perhaps naively) as a right of citizenship.

Does such a "church" have a right to claim being a victim of harassment?

Certainly you cannot just sit there and claim that the CoS is simply and innocently trying "to bring truth".

Nick

I am not claiming the church (as a collection of individuals) is innocent or even that I am innocent!

I am just trying to provide data for consideration and a fully understanding.

I think it is very relevant to explore the mechanisms of one side dramatizing then the other reverse dramatizing. Like the middle east. Leads nowhere good.

So many people on this board left the church because of insane behavior of church terminals......yet will ally with the anons???? (maybe only in very minor ways)

alex

[Lovesnightsky]

I am not claiming the church (as a collection of individuals) is innocent or even that I am innocent!

I am just trying to provide data for consideration and a fully understanding.

I think it is very relevant to explore the mechanisms of one side dramatizing then the other reverse dramatizing. Like the middle east. Leads nowhere good.

So many people on this board left the church because of insane behavior of church terminals......yet will ally with the anons???? (maybe only in very minor ways)

alex

I think the post was well made. It gave information that was useful and clearly labeled links that were disturbing and I did not want to get into.
It does point out the flaws in their plans, such as the fact that most small orgs don't have a computer to piss on. And especially not in the front desk, and wireless??? pleaaase.
And any addresses are stored in thousands of paper folders in a basement somewhere. Emails in the HGO which should not be easy to get to. And the direct link to the scientology intranet, no idea about that.

But if the plan is to send disturbing emails to subscribers, then they are going to piss a lot of people off, including myself who still get spam from SH, Flag and Plymouth even though I have repeatedly asked them to take me off their lists.

[Dulloldfart]

It does point out the flaws in their plans, such as the fact that most small orgs don't have a computer to piss on.

I know about using the CD drive slide-out tray to put coffee cups on, but I hadn't heard of that use. :)

See LNS, I've almost grown used to your oddities and started to accept you.

Paul

[Zinjifar]

I am not claiming the church (as a collection of individuals) is innocent or even that I am innocent!

I am just trying to provide data for consideration and a fully understanding.

I think it is very relevant to explore the mechanisms of one side dramatizing then the other reverse dramatizing. Like the middle east. Leads nowhere good.

So many people on this board left the church because of insane behavior of church terminals......yet will ally with the anons???? (maybe only in very minor ways)

alex

Translation: Despite the fact that members of this board and in fact, most active Scientology Critics deplore the illegal tactics used here, Alex would prefer to imply a collusion and association, and, in fact, reposts the offensive call for illegal activity *after* it had been removed by the ESMB moderator.

Why? Because Scientology needs victimology, even when feigned as a 'service facsimile' to justify its own offensive activities.

Zinj

[Lovesnightsky]

See LNS, I've almost grown used to your oddities and started to accept you.

Paul

Don't do that, you'll invalidate my case!!

[Lovesnightsky]

Translation: Despite the fact that members of this board and in fact, most active Scientology Critics deplore the illegal tactics used here, Alex would prefer to imply a collusion and association, and, in fact, reposts the offensive call for illegal activity *after* it had been removed by the ESMB moderator.

Why? Because Scientology needs victimology, even when feigned as a 'service facsimile' to justify its own offensive activities.

Zinj

Translation into Chinese to me Zinj, can't understand what you are saying. I need to go to sleep now.

[Free to shine]

Translation: Despite the fact that members of this board and in fact, most active Scientology Critics deplore the illegal tactics used here, Alex would prefer to imply a collusion and association, and, in fact, reposts the offensive call for illegal activity *after* it had been removed by the ESMB moderator.

Why? Because Scientology needs victimology, even when feigned as a 'service facsimile' to justify its own offensive activities.

Zinj

Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. You said it so much better!

[Tanstaafl]

Translation into Chinese to me Zinj, can't understand what you are saying.


Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. You said it so much better!

It's a funny world! :)

[alex]

Translation: Despite the fact that members of this board and in fact, most active Scientology Critics deplore the illegal tactics used here, Alex would prefer to imply a collusion and association, and, in fact, reposts the offensive call for illegal activity *after* it had been removed by the ESMB moderator.

Why? Because Scientology needs victimology, even when feigned as a 'service facsimile' to justify its own offensive activities.

Zinj

You say that after I repeatedly post replies to others agreeing with the assertion that it is very similar to the church's actions.

I am not justifying either entity. I just find the whole thing interesting.

The first post was removed as it was not clear that I was exposing the activity rather than promoting it.

I reposted it as I felt it was interesting and important.

Your seeing motives in me that do not exist is telling.

alex

[Lovesnightsky]

Your seeing motives in me that do not exist is telling.

alex

Translation: Go write your O/Ws Zinj.

Don't you just hate when ppl translate things for you?

[ExScnDude]

Will an altar boy and seminary escapee do?

I may not effectively bless water, but, I can take a drop from a baptysmal font and fil a 5 gallon jug to sqiirt gun every demon or vampire available...

Zinj

I guess that will have to do in a pinch.

If my laptop screen starts spinning around than I know we're in trouble!

Wait! I'm hearing this strange cacophony of voices speaking in different languages coming out of the speakers!

[Lovesnightsky]

Wait! I'm hearing this strange cacophony of voices speaking in different languages coming out of the speakers!

Must be the sound dump page from Paul's site, it gave me the willies even more than the anon movie on youtube!

[nw2394]

So many people on this board left the church because of insane behavior of church terminals......yet will ally with the anons???? (maybe only in very minor ways)

alex

Well, personally, I am not allying with the anons at all. Nor with the CoS. I don't feel the need to take either side. I merely note that an organisation that has institutionally indulged in harassment and worse cannot cry wolf when it falls victim of the same sort of tactics. I don't condone it and, indeed, would rather they didn't do it - but I sure as hell aint going to do any more than that to stop it.

Nick

[nw2394]

Your seeing motives in me that do not exist is telling.

alex

Well, possibly.

Or maybe you should decide whether to be in or out. You live a life that seems to be contradictory to me.

Nick

[Free to shine]

So many people on this board left the church because of insane behavior of church terminals......yet will ally with the anons???? (maybe only in very minor ways)

alex

My emphasis - is that what you are trying to prove?

That seems to be the intent of your posts. Prove all critics are crazy as claimed by posting some hacker game plans and then see who agrees? Politely done of course.

I just doubt your motives here.

[Dulloldfart]

Must be the sound dump page from Paul's site, it gave me the willies even more than the anon movie on youtube!

http://www.paulsrobot.com/LovedOne/audio_dump.htm

Yes, it does do that, doesn't it? It does to me too.

Paul

[lionheart]

Well, personally, I am not allying with the anons at all. Nor with the CoS. I don't feel the need to take either side. I merely note that an organisation that has institutionally indulged in harassment and worse cannot cry wolf when it falls victim of the same sort of tactics. I don't condone it and, indeed, would rather they didn't do it - but I sure as hell aint going to do any more than that to stop it.

Nick

:clap:

Well said, Nick! :thumbsup:

[alex]

Well, possibly.

Or maybe you should decide whether to be in or out. You live a life that seems to be contradictory to me.

Nick

As perhaps an explanation.

I am going through a phase where I am exploring the notion that all the significance in life that I see is put there by me.

Thus any dualities, us/them, in/out are mere constructs I myself have created.

It is my belief that an optimum state is when I can consciously choose my considerations and should always keep the ability to "return" to a state of maybe withdrawal from such constructs. Or you could say exterior from it.

So yes it is a VERY accurate observation that I am living a contradiction.

In many ways and in many facets of my life. But I have found a "peaceful place", maybe what the new agers call being centered, from which I am able to observe the contradictions I also inhabit.

To me this is an advance because previously I was not exterior to many of the conditions in my life.

I believe I have some small influence on people in the church. You could say I am covert because I dont dirrectly confront (or attack), but I choose to remain in, and exert whatever small influence I can to alter the course of it.

Do I do more harm than good by that?

That is the unknown.

Unknowns are the spice in life!

alex

[alex]

I think the post was well made. It gave information that was useful and clearly labeled links that were disturbing and I did not want to get into.
It does point out the flaws in their plans, such as the fact that most small orgs don't have a computer to piss on. And especially not in the front desk, and wireless??? pleaaase.
And any addresses are stored in thousands of paper folders in a basement somewhere. Emails in the HGO which should not be easy to get to. And the direct link to the scientology intranet, no idea about that.

But if the plan is to send disturbing emails to subscribers, then they are going to piss a lot of people off, including myself who still get spam from SH, Flag and Plymouth even though I have repeatedly asked them to take me off their lists.

Thankyou!

It is nice to be duplicated.

alex

[alex]

My emphasis - is that what you are trying to prove?

That seems to be the intent of your posts. Prove all critics are crazy as claimed by posting some hacker game plans and then see who agrees? Politely done of course.

I just doubt your motives here.

If I thought all critics were crazy, I wouldnt waste my time being here.

I am on this board as it is the largest collection of people in the world with similar experiences to mine. It is a place where people at least understand what I am saying alot of the time, and where I can say pretty much anything I choose.

When I say that some people ally themselves with the anons, maybe I should also say that perhaps they do not see that in themselves. It is not as if they come out and say "go for it" to them, but in subtle ways forward the anon intent.

I dont think any regular on this board agrees with the illegal aspects of their plans.

But many seem to feel "eye for an eye".

That is what I think needs to be examined.

I would encourage you to doubt my motives, as what you conceive them to be is not what I see them as.
:)

alex

[lionheart]

If I thought all critics were crazy, I wouldnt waste my time being here.

I am on this board as it is the largest collection of people in the world with similar experiences to mine. It is a place where people at least understand what I am saying alot of the time, and where I can say pretty much anything I choose.

When I say that some people ally themselves with the anons, maybe I should also say that perhaps they do not see that in themselves. It is not as if they come out and say "go for it" to them, but in subtle ways forward the anon intent.

I dont think any regular on this board agrees with the illegal aspects of their plans.

But many seem to feel "eye for an eye".

That is what I think needs to be examined.

I would encourage you to doubt my motives, as what you conceive them to be is not what I see them as.
:)

alex

I wonder if you imply that I believe in an "eye for an eye" as I qouted "he who lives by the sword.."

The point I was making is more subtle than that! I meant that the CofS believes in such things (Overt/Motivator sequence, pulling it in, etc) As an aside, I reject the concept entirely.

But the CofS believes in this stuff - that's the point. LRH and his disciples believed in SPs. Now the CofS has got them! They created them.

They believe that bad actions pull in bad things - they are now going to experience whatever these anonymous SPs do to them.

From a scientological point of view you could even say that LRH and his slaves have pushed and pushed with all this suppressive, abusive behaviour in order for someone in the world at large to come forward and prevent them.

Maybe it is now happening.

[alex]

I wonder if you imply that I believe in an "eye for an eye" as I qouted "he who lives by the sword.."

The point I was making is more subtle than that! I meant that the CofS believes in such things (Overt/Motivator sequence, pulling it in, etc) As an aside, I reject the concept entirely.

But the CofS believes in this stuff - that's the point. LRH and his disciples believed in SPs. Now the CofS has got them! They created them.

They believe that bad actions pull in bad things - they are now going to experience whatever these anonymous SPs do to them.

From a scientological point of view you could even say that LRH and his slaves have pushed and pushed with all this suppressive, abusive behaviour in order for someone in the world at large to come forward and prevent them.

Maybe it is now happening.

Yes I beleive that ones overts, (mine for instance) create motivators. (That is the overt motivator cycle, it begins with creation not effect, it begins with the overt not the motivator)

Telepathically, or karma or whatever.

I have had it demonstrated to me time after time in life.

I commit an "overt" and life puts in the balance.

At one time freeing people from suppressive valances was the work the work of scientology. Sadly it seems that to a large degree we (scientologists) are dramatizing what we resisted.

How to break the cycle.......?

Perhaps "be able to experience anything".

alex

[lionheart]

Yes I beleive that ones overts, (mine for instance) create motivators. (That is the overt motivator cycle, it begins with creation not effect, it begins with the overt not the motivator)

Telepathically, or karma or whatever.

I have had it demonstrated to me time after time in life.

I commit an "overt" and life puts in the balance.

At one time freeing people from suppressive valances was the work the work of scientology. Sadly it seems that to a large degree we (scientologists) are dramatizing what we resisted.

How to break the cycle.......?

Perhaps "be able to experience anything".

alex

Exactly! :thumbsup:

Scientologists believe these things, so they create them.

The CofS created SPs, so they have them.

They have abused for decades, so they have created the abuse they are now getting.

The only point of divergence between us is that you believe "life" (whatever that is) puts in the balance, whereas I would say that the person themself does this, if they believe in things like overt/motivator sequence or in "pulling it in".

Ron created this belief in his followers as a control mechanism on them.

As a logical question to break this belief, you can ask yourself "how can one create an overt, unless the person recieving it has already created an overt for which this is now their motivator? So how can the overt always come first?"

This is why Scientologists get trapped into looking for earlier overts to explain motivators that they are receiving. It's an illogical mind-spin!

Another question: do you think the CofS is able to "experience anything"?

[Div6]

One of the GPM's installed as a part of R6 contains not only the belief of the O-M sequence, it dramatizes it so that it is APPARENTLY true.

Once you get all the charge off of it, and the incipient O\W's of enforcing it on others (this is mentioned in the first Australian ACC...."the basic overt is making another guilty of overts") you can walk away from the O/W sequence. Hubbard mentioned this in the HCOB "O-W A limited theory". O\W only comes into existence when one can no longer HELP: ie: provide pro-survival assistance.

Life becomes so much simpler without all of that crap around. Unfortunately, on this planet, people have an engram instead of a 4th dynamic...and they dramatize it over, and over, and over....

[alex]

One of the GPM's installed as a part of R6 contains not only the belief of the O-M sequence, it dramatizes it so that it is APPARENTLY true.

Once you get all the charge off of it, and the incipient O\W's of enforcing it on others (this is mentioned in the first Australian ACC...."the basic overt is making another guilty of overts") you can walk away from the O/W sequence. Hubbard mentioned this in the HCOB "O-W A limited theory". O\W only comes into existence when one can no longer HELP: ie: provide pro-survival assistance.

Life becomes so much simpler without all of that crap around. Unfortunately, on this planet, people have an engram instead of a 4th dynamic...and they dramatize it over, and over, and over....

"the basic overt is making another guilty of overts" in other words not be able to experience anything.

Sure exterior to the context in which we seem to live the o/w phenomenon can be irrelevant.

But if I were to start saying that there really is not good or evil outside my own and others considerations, I would surely be jumped upon as a scientologist justifying, rather than making an interesting philisopical point.

I am an existentialist.

And you can probably do that math.
:)

alex

[alex]

Exactly! :thumbsup:

Scientologists believe these things, so they create them.

The CofS created SPs, so they have them.

They have abused for decades, so they have created the abuse they are now getting.

The only point of divergence between us is that you believe "life" (whatever that is) puts in the balance, whereas I would say that the person themself does this, if they believe in things like overt/motivator sequence or in "pulling it in".

Ron created this belief in his followers as a control mechanism on them.

As a logical question to break this belief, you can ask yourself "how can one create an overt, unless the person recieving it has already created an overt for which this is now their motivator? So how can the overt always come first?"

This is why Scientologists get trapped into looking for earlier overts to explain motivators that they are receiving. It's an illogical mind-spin!

Another question: do you think the CofS is able to "experience anything"?

I believe that the o/w phenomenon is observable in life. It exists in the context we mostly live, whether by implant or whatever. I dont agree that Ron invented it to trap people. He observed it. People trap themselves by not also observting and acting in a manner not to be effect.

Obviously the church is not able to experience anything, the "church" being a loose collection of individuals.

But then providing an opposing terminal is to be stuck in the same game, different role.

That ironically is how I can remain in the church and not get expelled. I just dont mock up being an opterm. Interestingly most scientologists dont seem to be able to read my mind. And the ones that can, understand.

alex

[alex]

By the way www.scientology.org is now loading faster than before the attacks.

alex

[Tanstaafl]

By the way www.scientology.org is now loading faster than before the attacks.

alex

True. The Empire Strikes Back! :)

[Zinjifar]

That ironically is how I can remain in the church and not get expelled. I just dont mock up being an opterm. Interestingly most scientologists dont seem to be able to read my mind. And the ones that can, understand.

alex

Uh huh. You can post here, be 'on course' and even have the 'Church' know about it, including your numerous posts about the evils of 'current management' because you're not 'mocking up being an OPterm' :)

Riiiiiiiiight...

Zinj

[Tanstaafl]

Uh huh. You can post here, be 'on course' and even have the 'Church' know about it, including your numerous posts about the evils of 'current management' because you're not 'mocking up being an OPterm' :)

Riiiiiiiiight...

Zinj

Zinj, would you mind explaining to this "slippery sucker" what your problem is with Alex? Just curious, is all. :)

[Zinjifar]

Zinj, would you mind explaining to this "slippery sucker" what your problem is with Alex? Just curious, is all. :)

I don't have a problem with Alex; I just don't buy his 'cover story'. And, for the most part, his 'cover story' is itself the message; i.e. that one can be an 'independent thinking Scientologist' within the 'Church'.

Beyond that obvious 'out point', there are other less obvious ones, such as ongoing attacks against *specific* individuals (on ARS, on ESMB Alex is more the happy-face) and occassional 'special op', like doing his best to 'associate' ESMB with illegality, I dont' have any problems with Alex at all.

He seems like a nice guy; or, at least he plays one for the most part.

Zinj

[Tanstaafl]

I don't have a problem with Alex; I just don't buy his 'cover story'. And, for the most part, his 'cover story' is itself the message; i.e. that one can be an 'independent thinking Scientologist' within the 'Church'.

Beyond that obvious 'out point', there are other less obvious ones, such as ongoing attacks against *specific* individuals (on ARS, on ESMB Alex is more the happy-face) and occassional 'special op', like doing his best to 'associate' ESMB with illegality, I dont' have any problems with Alex at all.

He seems like a nice guy; or, at least he plays one for the most part.

Zinj

Thanks Zinj. As I said, I was just curious.

[alex]

I don't have a problem with Alex; I just don't buy his 'cover story'. And, for the most part, his 'cover story' is itself the message; i.e. that one can be an 'independent thinking Scientologist' within the 'Church'.

Beyond that obvious 'out point', there are other less obvious ones, such as ongoing attacks against *specific* individuals (on ARS, on ESMB Alex is more the happy-face) and occassional 'special op', like doing his best to 'associate' ESMB with illegality, I dont' have any problems with Alex at all.

He seems like a nice guy; or, at least he plays one for the most part.

Zinj

The only real problem I have with the above is the implication that I intended to associate esmb with illegality.

While I can see how Emma may have seen it that way, and of course you, I was just sloppy, not devious.

Ironically my "cover story" and "meta message" are unintentional. Most all the details I have posted about myself are true and accurate. The name Alex is the biggest "lie". (actually it is a name from a previous life, that I still have family connections too so it is not as much a lie as it could be. I answer to it in my head and memories).

Zinj, you would be surprised what some scientologist believe yet still stay with the church.

But I do appreciate that you are honest about how you see me.

It amuses me.
:)

alex

[Zinjifar]

Zinj, you would be surprised what some scientologist believe yet still stay with the church.

But I do appreciate that you are honest about how you see me.

It amuses me.
:)

alex

Alex, niether what some Scientologists 'believe' nor the fact that they remain in the 'Church' tends to surprise me, much :)

What I find incredible is that a Scientologist could say what you do about the 'current management' and Davey himself, and, have the 'Church' aware of it, and still remain in the 'Church' (and, on course) unless the 'Church' actually wanted to get exactly that message out.

And, I think you're too intelligent to be an unwitting pawn in such a deliberate bit of disinfo.

Actually, it's not even a new message. The 'Church' has been sending it for years now, apparently having despaired of convincing the broad public or wogs that the 'Church' itself is a benign entity. Rightly so :)

It seems to serve at least two purposes; first, to lull the suspicions of the 'Say Xenu!' crowd, and, second, to serve as a deliberate bit of 'third partying' to divide the 'Tech Good!' crowd from the 'Tech not good' bunch.

I do think you'd be able to do your job better if they didn't keep 'all handsing' you into the more 'direct' type personal DA ops.

Zinj

[Pascal]

Alex is a cowardly wretch. Hiding behind a false name. Shows he or she is afraid, hence quite low on the bridge or low on theta. I think both. A typical product of DM's.

[alex]

Alex, niether what some Scientologists 'believe' nor the fact that they remain in the 'Church' tends to surprise me, much :)

What I find incredible is that a Scientologist could say what you do about the 'current management' and Davey himself, and, have the 'Church' aware of it, and still remain in the 'Church' (and, on course) unless the 'Church' actually wanted to get exactly that message out.

And, I think you're too intelligent to be an unwitting pawn in such a deliberate bit of disinfo.

Actually, it's not even a new message. The 'Church' has been sending it for years now, apparently having despaired of convincing the broad public or wogs that the 'Church' itself is a benign entity. Rightly so :)

It seems to serve at least two purposes; first, to lull the suspicions of the 'Say Xenu!' crowd, and, second, to serve as a deliberate bit of 'third partying' to divide the 'Tech Good!' crowd from the 'Tech not good' bunch.

I do think you'd be able to do your job better if they didn't keep 'all handsing' you into the more 'direct' type personal DA ops.

Zinj


Sorry zinj, but child molestors deserve my attention. Keith is too smart to be so "innocent".


a

[Zinjifar]

Sorry zinj, but child molestors deserve my attention. Keith is too smart to be so "innocent".


a

Silly Alex. Even ignoring the current version of 'guilty by Internet', Keith Henson was on your 'attack list' long before, despite the transparent perversion of justice inherent of a conviction for 'interfering with a religion' for walking the public road outside of 'Gold Base' in Gilman Hot Springs carrying a sign...

But wait! There's More! :)

He's not the only person on your list. There's also Tory Christman and Phil Scott and some others I can't remember immediately who have achieved an amazing level of personal venom from you, despite your here-demonstrated exalted 'spiritual state'.

Naturally, there are also questionable elements to your support for an organization that programmatically *covers up* child molestation, which would, of itself, not be unique, but, does so as a matter of *religious dogma*!!

No Alex; at the very least you're a hypocrite, but, I suspect you are more of a 'true believer' whose concept of 'Ethics' is firmly grounded in Ron's own.

Zinj

[Alanzo]

Silly Alex. Even ignoring the current version of 'guilty by Internet', Keith Henson was on your 'attack list' long before, despite the transparent perversion of justice inherent of a conviction for 'interfering with a religion' for walking the public road outside of 'Gold Base' in Gilman Hot Springs carrying a sign...

But wait! There's More! :)

He's not the only person on your list. There's also Tory Christman and Phil Scott and some others I can't remember immediately who have achieved an amazing level of personal venom from you, despite your here-demonstrated exalted 'spiritual state'.

Naturally, there are also questionable elements to your support for an organization that programmatically *covers up* child molestation, which would, of itself, not be unique, but, does so as a matter of *religious dogma*!!

No Alex; at the very least you're a hypocrite, but, I suspect you are more of a 'true believer' whose concept of 'Ethics' is firmly grounded in Ron's own.

Zinj

Zinj raises an awful interesting point, Alex.

I have seen first hand the sexual molestation that your Church hides from the authorities, and have reported on it here and elsewhere.

Never once did you ever act like you cared at all about what I had to say.

And yet here you say:


Sorry zinj, but child molestors deserve my attention. Keith is too smart to be so "innocent".How do you explain the apparent contradiction between your actions and your words?

What are you doing to ensure that the Church of Scientology stops covering up for child molesters in their ranks?

[Tanstaafl]

Alex is a cowardly wretch. Hiding behind a false name. Shows he or she is afraid, hence quite low on the bridge or low on theta. I think both. A typical product of DM's.

Just for the record, is anyone else here "hiding behind a false name" (myself included) a "cowardly wretch"? :)

[Zinjifar]

Just for the record, is anyone else here "hiding behind a false name" (myself included) a "cowardly wretch"? :)

I can't speak for anyone else, but, I'm shivering in my boots.

Zinj

[lionheart]

Any of us who know what activity the CofS is capable of should be able to see that what Alex does on here could easily be consistant with such activity.

Either Alex is not a real scientologist who is pretending to be aboard on the same terms as the rest of them, like Alex claims is the case. In other words Alex is a namby pamby panty-waist dilletante SP Squirrel who is being false with them while taking services.

Or Alex is on here carrying out a Scn black op pretending to us to be what is impossible, which is an open-minded, fair scientologist who is critical of the CofS management and LRH.

[Zinjifar]

Sometimes, especially when dealing with the 'Church' things *are* kind of 'black and white' :)

I suspect it's the nature of the beast.

Zinj

[Tanstaafl]

Any of us who know what activity the CofS is capable of should be able to see that what Alex does on here could easily be consistant with such activity.

Which proves nothing in itself.


Either Alex is not a real scientologist who is pretending to be aboard on the same terms as the rest of them, like Alex claims is the case. In other words Alex is a namby pamby panty-waist dilletante SP Squirrel who is being false with them while taking services.

It sounds, LH, like you're trying to bait Alex. Are you? If so, why?


Or Alex is on here carrying out a Scn black op pretending to us to be what is impossible, which is an open-minded, fair scientologist who is critical of the CofS management and LRH.

Is it so unlikely that Alex wants to get training in CoS while holding his views on DM?

Granted, I was very slow on the uptake with Eamonn Gosney. :duh: :)

I don't know the details of the ARS matters Zinj mentioned. I decided when I joined ESMB that I'd treat people as I found them and not be prejudiced by reputations, e.g. Dennis.

What is it specifically that Alex has posted that is pissing people off?

[lionheart]

Sometimes, especially when dealing with the 'Church' things *are* kind of 'black and white' :)

I suspect it's the nature of the beast.

Zinj

Yes, that's how Ron set it up because of his own black & white personality.

Alex is saying that he or she is grey (sorry gray! :wink2: ). Alex claims to be critical of but faithful to the CofS! :confused2: Ron never permitted such open-mindedness, unless you were a GO operative. :coolwink:

[Free to shine]

Yes, that's how Ron set it up because of his own black & white personality.

Alex is saying that he or she is grey (sorry gray! :wink2: ). Alex claims to be critical of but faithful to the CofS! :confused2: Ron never permitted such open-mindedness, unless you were a GO operative. :coolwink:

:thumbsup: :yes:

[Zinjifar]

Which proves nothing in itself.

As Alex is aware, the internet, of which ESMB is a part, is not a court of law. There are no 'rules of evidence' or 'rights of the accused'; only opinions. Which makes Alex apparent conviction of Keith Henson for heinous crimes dubious.


It sounds, LH, like you're trying to bait Alex. Are you? If so, why?

It's for his own good? Or, maybe it's just to offer Alex an opportunity to get off his 'withholds' :)


Is it so unlikely that Alex wants to get training in CoS while holding his views on DM?

Not that. What's so unlikely is that Alex would be *allowed* to get training while at the same time expressing his 'views' publicly and with 'Church' awareness.


Granted, I was very slow on the uptake with Eamonn Gosney. :duh: :)

Alex said he was cool :) Surely that counts for something...


I don't know the details of the ARS matters Zinj mentioned. I decided when I joined ESMB that I'd treat people as I found them and not be prejudiced by reputations, e.g. Dennis.

What is it specifically that Alex has posted that is pissing people off?

It's not about pissing people off. It's about false flags and taking advantage of what can be naivete or even deliberate naivete, as you express. I'm certainly not suggesting that Alex be prevented from posting whatever he wants to, but, I reserve the right to see it as deliberate subtrefuge.

Zinj

[Leon]

Please count me in as an "open-minded, fair scientologist who is critical of the CofS management and (some aspects of) LRH".

[TheSneakster]

not important

[Tanstaafl]

Fair enough Zinj. Thanks for getting back on that.

The only point I would make is that I can't see an F/Ning student having a problem staying on course, whatever his/her current beliefs. How would such be discovered?

[ExScnDude]

Just for the record, is anyone else here "hiding behind a false name" (myself included) a "cowardly wretch"? :)

In my case it would be a "circumspect wretch".

[Tanstaafl]

Alex has to be lying, that's what.

There is only one kind of Scientologist "in good standing with the Church" who OSA permits to post in any kind of critical forum, and that is someone working for them.

Every faithful churchie who posts without OSA permission *will* be found out, and will either be forced to stop or start posting for them. Failure to do so will result in being declared PTS and routed off all services and continued defiance will result in an SP declare with resultant consequences to friends and family.

Therefore, "Alex" is lying.

Either he/she/it/them is an OSA posting identity or he/she/it is a troll pretending to be a churchie.

The Sneakster


Okay TS, that seems to be the datum I have missed - the okay from OSA.
My apologies if this has created a little dev-t for anyone.

Please bear in mind that my memory is barely any better than Guy Pearce in Memento (and yes, we all know what that means). :duh:

I agree that such a scenario seems highly implausible.

[Zinjifar]

Fair enough Zinj. Thanks for getting back on that.

The only point I would make is that I can't see an F/Ning student having a problem staying on course, whatever his/her current beliefs. How would such be discovered?

He could express his beliefs on ESMB or ARS or to his wife or children (who would write a KR) or he might just be a dubious character; like alanzo

Zinj

[lionheart]

Which proves nothing in itself.

It sounds, LH, like you're trying to bait Alex. Are you? If so, why?

Is it so unlikely that Alex wants to get training in CoS while holding his views on DM?

Granted, I was very slow on the uptake with Eamonn Gosney. :duh: :)

I don't know the details of the ARS matters Zinj mentioned. I decided when I joined ESMB that I'd treat people as I found them and not be prejudiced by reputations, e.g. Dennis.

What is it specifically that Alex has posted that is pissing people off?

For myself, Alex can do whatever he (is it a he?) wants to do as regards Scn services. But as far as Scn is concerned I have no desire for any more people to suffer from Scn abuse and betrayal of their spiritual natures.

Therefore whenever Scns start painting an untrue picture of Scn my cult-dar starts bleeping. I get a "we want to sucker more people into our cult" warning bleeping away.

Alex says he is taking services, but does not support CofS abuse! Huh?:confused2:

Alex says you can be a Scientologist in good standing but hide from them that you are posting on critical message boards. Huh? :confused2: Oh no you can't!

So then Alex said that it was a correspondence course he was doing and had no present attendence at a Church. Huh? :confused2:

Is Alex a Scientologist? Alex is one of those people who tries to paint a cosy picture of earlier Scn and how the current management have corrupted LRH's creation. Alex is either mistaken or is lying.

So I try to speak the truth. If it stops one person from being suckered in by Alex's false information, then I have achieved what I have set out to achieve.

[Zinjifar]

Supposedly Alex is not only posting to ARS and ESMB, but, the 'Church' is *aware* of it, and allowing him to continue without 'ethics actions'.

It's quite possible that someone might post anonymously without being caught, although, the 'Church' goes to extreme measures to 'discover' such stuff...

Zinj

[Tanstaafl]

For myself, Alex can do whatever he (is it a he?) wants to do as regards Scn services. But as far as Scn is concerned I have no desire for any more people to suffer from Scn abuse and betrayal of their spiritual natures.

Therefore whenever Scns start painting an untrue picture of Scn my cult-dar starts bleeping. I get a "we want to sucker more people into our cult" warning bleeping away.

Alex says he is taking services, but does not support CofS abuse! Huh?:confused2:

Alex says you can be a Scientologist in good standing but hide from them that you are posting on critical message boards. Huh? :confused2: Oh no you can't!

So then Alex said that it was a correspondence course he was doing and had no present attendence at a Church. Huh? :confused2:

Is Alex a Scientologist? Alex is one of those people who tries to paint a cosy picture of earlier Scn and how the current management have corrupted LRH's creation. Alex is either mistaken or is lying.

So I try to speak the truth. If it stops one person from being suckered in by Alex's false information, then I have achieved what I have set out to achieve.

I wasn't having a pop at you LH - you're local! :)

Thanks for expanding on your point.

I don't tend to register too much on personal details (especially if I haven't exchanged posts with a person); I tend to focus on ideas and humour (though some might argue). I see where you're coming from now.

[lionheart]

Please count me in as an "open-minded, fair scientologist who is critical of the CofS management and (some aspects of) LRH".

Fine. Wonderful! :thumbsup: So you are NOT a Scientologist per LRH's definition in KSW.

You are PTS or SP, according to Ron.

You are a dilletant and theety weety according to LRH. Congratulations!

[ExScnDude]

Come on now. We've all seen people like Alex in the course room.

If he is not an operative, then he is currently not in the situation where his withholds are being pulled - or he has a crappy auditor who's missing these withholds continuously.

If it were known by Dept. 3 or OSA that he has been communicating to declared SPs, there would be an ongoing ethics cycle concerning that - unless of course he is doing services in some backwater understaffed org or mission, doing some Div 6 course - more or less under the radar.

Yet Alex has stated on another thread that he more or less agrees with everything in KSW. Hmmmmmmm...... - makes me think that Alex is only peripherally involved and not doing major services at an org.

Alex, if you're not here on the orders of OSA, then get ready for a massive ethics cycle.

You'll never get on the OT Levels at the Co$ until it's "handled".

[lionheart]

Fair enough Zinj. Thanks for getting back on that.

The only point I would make is that I can't see an F/Ning student having a problem staying on course, whatever his/her current beliefs. How would such be discovered?

Well, recently Alex said it was a corespondence course he or she was doing. In which case this person is not really on-lines.

If that is false and Alex is actually on-lines, then you cannot be an F/Ning student and have different beliefs from the CofS beliefs. Ron set it up so that that is impossible. Due to partial belief in some of Ron's Scn dogma, you will feel guilty about posting on ESMB. Ron implanted that into his auditing and study technology.

When I was a course super I could easily detect these things. The very dogma that is being studied will flag up the wandering doubt.

When I was an auditor and C/S I could easily detect such witholds. The very style of the session and auditing techniques used would flag up SP/PTSness, and witholds.

Ron set up the tech this way in the 60's. You cannot be an F/Ning Scientologist in the CofS and harbour lingering doubts. KSW put an end to that. The only way to F/N in the CofS is to be a true believer. Otherwise you end up on the RPF or in the SP Hall or sec-checked or off-loaded.

PS - we are cool Tans. I don't mind clarifying and expanding my ideas. :)

[Zinjifar]

You still trust 'The Tech', including the 'Sec Check Tech' and even 'flying Ruds' more than I do, and, that's OK

But, Alex specifically said that his org is *aware* of his posting activity, and allowing him to continue.

No chalupa miranda...

Zinj

[lionheart]

You still trust 'The Tech', including the 'Sec Check Tech' and even 'flying Ruds' more than I do, and, that's OK

But, Alex specifically said that his org is *aware* of his posting activity, and allowing him to continue.

No chalupa miranda...

Zinj

If you mean me trusting the tech, Zinj, not quite. The way I see it the tech is a sort of closed system. Within it's own confines of use and belief it is pretty much complete. Therefore as a Scientologist within the Scn belief system, then the manifestations that I described are manifested and are easily detected.

Outside the Scn belief system things are very different and in my opinion the tech is little more than an implant on the spirit. Thank goodness! :happydance:

And yes, as well as saying it was a correspondance course Alex did also say that the CofS was aware of the contact with ESMB. :confused2: Impossible!

[Alanzo]

He could express his beliefs on ESMB or ARS or to his wife or children (who would write a KR) or he might just be a dubious character; like alanzo

Zinj

That's why I'm an armadillo now.

To appear less dubious.

Do you like my bucket?

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

If you mean me trusting the tech, Zinj, not quite. The way I see it the tech is a sort of closed system. Within it's own confines of use and belief it is pretty much complete. Therefore as a Scientologist within the Scn belief system, then the manifestations that I described are manifested and are easily detected.

Outside the Scn belief system things are very different and in my opinion the tech is little more than an implant on the spirit. Thank goodness! :happydance:

And yes, as well as saying it was a correspondance course Alex did also say that the CofS was aware of the contact with ESMB. :confused2: Impossible!

More than three years after I wrote an ethics report and put it in my folder that I went onto one of the entheta websites and saw the word Xenu (sort of like "I smoked, but I did not inhale"), well more than three years later AOLA gave me a reading program and would not allow me to attend the events or be on the base until I finished the reading program. When I moved to Washington DC Org I was allowed to be on course and even paid for the Auditor's training package and the KTL/LOC and a Life Repair. It does seem inconsistent.

[Zinjifar]

More than three years after I wrote an ethics report and put it in my folder that I went onto one of the entheta websites and saw the word Xenu (sort of like "I smoked, but I did not inhale"), well more than three years later AOLA gave me a reading program and would not allow me to attend the events or be on the base until I finished the reading program. When I moved to Washington DC Org I was allowed to be on course and even paid for the Auditor's training package and the KTL/LOC and a Life Repair. It does seem inconsistent.

Heh. Can you imagine how it would have been had you suggested that 'Current Management' was 'Off Source' and that COB was a deplorable martinet?

'Oh! OK! Come on in; Scientology is about The Tech! Not 'management'!'

Zinj

[ExScnDude]

That's why I'm an armadillo now.

To appear less dubious.

Do you like my bucket?

That is one fine specimen of a quality bucket.

Really sets off your pink scales too.

[Zinjifar]

That is one fine specimen of a quality bucket.

Really sets off your pink scales too.

It's not full of magenta concrete.
Otherwise, it's fine

Zinj

[Alan]

That's why I'm an armadillo now.

To appear less dubious.

Do you like my bucket?

:rose: :love11: :biglove: :biglove: :biglove:

[Dulloldfart]

It's not full of magenta concrete.


Hard or wet?

Paul

[Tanstaafl]

Well, recently Alex said it was a corespondence course he or she was doing. In which case this person is not really on-lines.

That is different to being on course.
Can Alex clarify please (if interested)?


If that is false and Alex is actually on-lines, then you cannot be an F/Ning student and have different beliefs from the CofS beliefs. Ron set it up so that that is impossible. Due to partial belief in some of Ron's Scn dogma, you will feel guilty about posting on ESMB. Ron implanted that into his auditing and study technology.

I see your point. However, I believe that someone who knew exactly what they were doing there and why could get through without detection.
I have some sympathy for the "get in there, get what I need, don't get involved with anything else" approach.


When I was a course super I could easily detect these things. The very dogma that is being studied will flag up the wandering doubt.

I don't doubt you were skilled at this, but can you be sure you detected everyone who may fall into this category? Does the new breed of post-GAT Sups have this same skill?

[Tanstaafl]

That is one fine specimen of a quality bucket.

Really sets off your pink scales too.

Aha! So he is a Pink Fairy Panzerschwein!

[Alanzo]

Aha! So he is a Pink Fairy Panzerschwein!

Look who's talking, Purple TeleTubby!

[Tanstaafl]

Look who's talking, Purple TeleTubby!

Oh, the ignorance! :melodramatic:

My new avatar is Porky Pig Space Cadet. :happydance:

I chose him for his air of dignified authority and command so as to garner more respect amongst my highly-esteemed peers on ESMB. :yes:

[lionheart]

That is different to being on course.
Can Alex clarify please (if interested)?



I see your point. However, I believe that someone who knew exactly what they were doing there and why could get through without detection.
I have some sympathy for the "get in there, get what I need, don't get involved with anything else" approach.

Maybe. Can't see them getting any case gain out of any auditing 'though. Of course, there was always a spectrum of degree of dedication amongst students & PCs. But the longer they were in there the more dedicated they became. The tech is set up to acieve this.




I don't doubt you were skilled at this, but can you be sure you detected everyone who may fall into this category? Does the new breed of post-GAT Sups have this same skill?

In my time, yes I'm pretty certain I detected all SP/PTSness and ARCXy and W/Hy people. It really wasn't difficult even to detect the ones pretending

My experience of Scn is a quarter of a century old now, but from what I've read from more recent Scns it seems the current setup is even more geared up to filter out non-Scns and half-hearted-Scns.

Basically Alex's accounts just don't ring true.

[petraph33]

Oh, the ignorance! :melodramatic:

My new avatar is Porky Pig Space Cadet. :happydance:

I chose him for his air of dignified authority and command so as to garner more respect amongst my highly-esteemed peers on ESMB. :yes:


:hysterical: :hattip: :cheers2: :drama: :spitcoffee:

Both of you are so entertaining, it is so good to have you on this baord. Thanks! :thumbsup:

[Alanzo]

Oh, the ignorance! :melodramatic:

My new avatar is Porky Pig Space Cadet. :happydance:

I chose him for his air of dignified authority and command so as to garner more respect amongst my highly-esteemed peers on ESMB. :yes:

Aba-dee Aba-dee Aba-I have more respect for you already.

Porky Pig is way more laser sharp and effective than Purple TeleTubby.

[Tanstaafl]

Aba-dee Aba-dee Aba-I have more respect for you already.

Porky Pig is way more laser sharp and effective than Purple TeleTubby.

Thank you. It's good to know that all those hours I spent searching for just the right jpg to do my concept justice were well spent.

[Bea Kiddo]

I think someone on this board, while on lines, could get away with it for a time.

Really its a state of the mind of the person. If it is not considered in the mind of the person as an overt, it would not react on a meter. But if they did, it would react.

In either case, when, if ever, it does come up, that person will be viewed as a total SP. Because an ethical, on purpose Scientologist would have gotten off evil WH as that right away, and not had to have it pulled out of them.

It blame the pc, not the auditor. I have seen it many, many times.

But really, what is wrong with finding out things? Hmmm?

(hey guys, I am back! I got sucked into a black hole for over a week and took me a while to get back.... but here I am again!)

[Tanstaafl]

Queen Bea is back in town! :happydance:

[Alanzo]

I think someone on this board, while on lines, could get away with it for a time.

Really its a state of the mind of the person. If it is not considered in the mind of the person as an overt, it would not react on a meter. But if they did, it would react.

In either case, when, if ever, it does come up, that person will be viewed as a total SP. Because an ethical, on purpose Scientologist would have gotten off evil WH as that right away, and not had to have it pulled out of them.

It blame the pc, not the auditor. I have seen it many, many times.

But really, what is wrong with finding out things? Hmmm?

(hey guys, I am back! I got sucked into a black hole for over a week and took me a while to get back.... but here I am again!)

YAY!!!

Bea's back!!!

Bea - there is so much that has happened!!

[Snuffy]

Anyone noticing that RFW is still down and Scientology.org is still problematic at best ...?

[Alanzo]

Anyone noticing that RFW is still down and Scientology.org is still problematic at best ...?

I don't think RFW has been back up even once since it has been down.

I wonder if they will ever pay that reward if someone helps them catch whoever did it?

They'll probably put it on the FP. And since RFW makes no GI, well....

[Bea Kiddo]

I don't think RFW has been back up even once since it has been down.

I wonder if they will ever pay that reward if someone helps them catch whoever did it?

They'll probably put it on the FP. And since RFW makes no GI, well....

dang it!!! I have been working all year to get myself up on their list. It prestigious, isn't it?

(Not meant to offend anyone.... hope it doesnt come across like that).

[Tanstaafl]

www.bridgepub.com appears to be down

[Tanstaafl]

Add www.myhomepage.org to that.
Unless there's some other explanation.

[Roan]

I wonder if they will ever pay that reward if someone helps them catch whoever did it?
Either in me or amongst many others there seems to be some confusion about this reward thing.

I havn't seen a reward there for these specific "Anonymous" DDoS actions posted on RFW. Is there one actually there?

The reward posting I saw there were for some "terroristic" threats e-mailed under various proxy E-Mail nics. "El Baldo" was one of them, if I remember correctly. The IP addresses listed in the reward were various ones that this "crackpot critic" used in sending the "threats."

These happened at least several months ago.

Are others confused or did I miss something?

:questions:

[Emma]

Either in me or amongst many others there seems to be some confusion about this reward thing.

I havn't seen a reward there for these specific "Anonymous" DDoS actions posted on RFW. Is there one actually there?

The reward posting I saw there were for some "terroristic" threats e-mailed under various proxy E-Mail nics. "El Baldo" was one of them, if I remember correctly. The IP addresses listed in the reward were various ones that this "crackpot critic" used in sending the "threats."

These happened at least several months ago.

Are others confused or did I miss something?

:questions:

You are correct. These rewards were posted months ago and don't relate to anonymous AFAIK.

[Bea Kiddo]

I've been having trouble with ESMB all day. And all links too. Weird. Must be me.

[Emma]

I've been having trouble with ESMB all day. And all links too. Weird. Must be me.

The server change is happening. There may be some disruptions.