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Sharone Stainforth
12th February 2008, 05:58 PM
I have been reading on OCMB about Scientologists getting ill and not receiving proper medical care due to belief that auditing will cure the problem.

Cancer patients dying, who otherwise might have had a chance at survival had their cancer been diagnosed earlier.
Scientology practicing medicine without a license.

http://www.xenud
irectory.net/practises/medical1.html (http://www.xenudirectory.net/practises/medical1.html)

This is terrible.There are so many things wrong with the CoS.

One thing i wonder about;
Do women who are pregnant get audited whilst they are pregnant and what possible side effects might that have on the baby?

Tamasin

ozzie
12th February 2008, 06:13 PM
There is a pregnancy rundown. Don't know much about the tech side of it, but I have myself received this rundown while pregnant.

Ozzie

Sharone Stainforth
12th February 2008, 07:21 PM
There is a pregnancy rundown. Don't know much about the tech side of it, but I have myself received this rundown while pregnant.

I should like to know more about this,if and when you have the time.
Thanks
Tamasin

Kathy (ImOut)
12th February 2008, 07:39 PM
You may have old data about illness in Scn. When I was still in back in 2005 they wouldn't take me in session - I had to see a doctor. So, with the death of Lisa and all the fall-out from that, I believe you must seek medical treatment. If you have high blood pressure, I believe you can't even be in session at Flag. You must get it under control before. I think you can still train, but no sessions.

There is a pregnancy assist (auditing). Never had it. But you can't audit a woman passed 6 months of pregnancy. I don't know if that's the entire bridge or just specific actions - such as dianetics. Maybe a tech trained person can clear up all of our confusions on this matter.

Dulloldfart
12th February 2008, 07:46 PM
There is a pregnancy assist (auditing). Never had it. But you can't audit a woman passed 6 months of pregnancy. I don't know if that's the entire bridge or just specific actions - such as dianetics. Maybe a tech trained person can clear up all of our confusions on this matter.

I remember an HCOB forbidding "upper level actions" (Power and up, I think) after 6 months (I think). I guess the theory was that a thetan connected with the baby might get treated as a "body thetan" and blown. Normal assists were OK, but not Dianetic ones. After the birth, Dianetics was OK again.

Paul

Lovesnightsky
12th February 2008, 08:09 PM
Yes, there is a pregnancy rundown thing, but I don't know the actual name. And auditing does stop at 6 months. I saw a public getting the auditing. There is also assists. I was pregnant while on staff for 2 months (miscarried) and I have to say that I was treated very well. People were told not to shout or create any upsets in my vicinity and I was given assists to help with the morning sickness.

With regard other illnesses, there is a Class V auditor at Plymouth Org called David Hutt. This auditor used to get epileptic fits. He had tons of them while auditing me, I would just wait for them to pass and then he would read up on where he was and continue the session.
After he had a fit while auditing a public, and she screamed out loud in such a terrified manner that we all ran out to see what had happened... Susie (Senior C/S) and Vicky (OED) tried to get him to take regular meds, but he refused.

Leon
12th February 2008, 08:19 PM
I don't know that the pregnancy rundown is a published set of formal steps - it's more an approach to a situation. much like Life Repair was always tailored to the individual person.

But it would deal with any charge the person had regarding the preganacy, past births cleaned up and then generally get in comm with the new baby that is growing. An action well worth doing, it is easy auditing and mothers-to-be generally love it.

ozzie
12th February 2008, 11:56 PM
Well all I remember is it was called a "Rundown" I had one during and after a major miscarriage and one during pregnancy. It was a prepared set of actions, whether it was tailored to me I don't know. But it definately was called a rundown.

As far as sickness and auditing goes - I remember a man at saint hill in the late sixties dying of cancer. He was allowed auditing. He was terminal and he was dying but he was given auditing to help him "drop his body". He died shortly after starting his auditing. He also had a scn funeral and much was said by his widow about how he had an easier time of letting go because of the auditing. In that case I think it helped the guy.

In other cases I have seen people with epilepsy (myself included)be audited to try and "cure" it. Didn't work.

I've also seen cancer cases be audited to try and "cure" it - didn't work!

In these cases the normal medical help was refused or denied.

To use Scn as a cure is wrong - but as above I saw it be used to alleviate suffering and it worked for that guy. Maybe it won't or didn't for others.

Ozzie

Bea Kiddo
13th February 2008, 05:33 AM
A pregnancy RD is basically a set of processes programmed out by the C/S. Its rudiments and prepchecking and such on past births, anticipation of giving birth. Stuff like that.

Upper level material cant be audited past 6 months of pregnancy. Same with KTL Clay Table auditing. Maybe others too. I forget.

Any question, feel free to post and I will be happy to respond.

Mark A. Baker
13th February 2008, 07:07 AM
As far as sickness and auditing goes - I remember a man at saint hill in the late sixties dying of cancer. He was allowed auditing. He was terminal and he was dying but he was given auditing to help him "drop his body". He died shortly after starting his auditing. He also had a scn funeral and much was said by his widow about how he had an easier time of letting go because of the auditing. In that case I think it helped the guy.

...

In these cases the normal medical help was refused or denied.

To use Scn as a cure is wrong - but as above I saw it be used to alleviate suffering and it worked for that guy. Maybe it won't or didn't for others.



Seems to me that when the "tech" is used to help an individual in addressing the mental & spiritual aspects of his physical health problems, that is an appropriate use.

Contrarily, when it is used as a means of "curing" a physical ailment, that is an abuse, both of the tech & of the pc's trust.

If a physical condition is alleviated as a result of auditing that is great, but the proper use of the tech appears to me to be in handling the person's "upset" in experiencing the physical ailment.

This is a distinction which a lot of spiritual traditions recognize & respect. It is particularly noticeable among Native American & shamanistic cultures, and even is recognized by "modern medical practice" (ref. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross) .

Your examples I think illustrate this distinction.


Mark A. Baker

Carmel
21st February 2009, 02:40 PM
I've just had some disturbing news tonight. I trust the source of the info.

One of the kids from Sydney, who joined CMO some years ago, is now back here in Sydney (after some years of being in the States), getting a "program" for a physical condition that sounds potentially deadly.

This guy (he's maybe 25 now), is now at the base at Dundas, and is failing physically. He has been sent 'home' because he is ill. We have 'free' medical care here, but apparently he's not getting it (I don't know how long he was ill for, before he was sent back from the States). Apparently his dad went out to the base to pick him up and take him to a doctor, 'cause he's been back here for over two weeks now but hasn't yet seen a doctor about his condition. Reportedly, he refused to go with his dad, because the C/S has programmed him for a 'handling' and he's been told to get the program done first.

Per the refs I know and knew too, one would always get medical treatment first, and then maybe have auditing as an assist to help in recovery. That's what we always did (or C/Sed for).

Apparently the dad is very concerned, because he can't talk sense into the kid, and his life is at risk. By the same token though, I believe that the mum and the dad would be somewhat taking on board what the C/S says or has instructed. This scenario sounds too bizzare, but I have been told that this is what is occurring.

Both parents are still 'in' and I'm on their black list, so I can't just call them up and speak to them directly. I last spoke with him when he called me from LA before Christmas, but I think he was calling for OSA - even if it were possible, it's not like I could just rock up to the base and say g'day. I have looked up the 'refs' that apply and I'll be forwarding them to someone who is still in contact with the dad, so the dad can then pass them on to him. Hopefully he will see some sense, see a doctor and get the tests and treatment he needs. I'm not sure what else to do at this point. This guy is no longer a minor, so it's not like we can get hold of some authority and report it.

The trouble is, we are not talking about a young man who has lived life. He's a 3rd generation scn'ist. He joined Class V org staff when he was very young, then joined the SO while still very young, and has been without any familial support for some years now. Knowing his mother and the group think within the SO, he probably has the view that the medical profession is only good for fixing broken bones or something to succumb to in the case of a life and death emergency.

For the record, a certain C/S from AOSH ANZO is playing with fire here (as he has many times before). I hope that this post is seen by someone who can see the potential 'threat' here and who has the authority to send an order down to AOSH ANZO, to get this young SO member the medical care that he is currently being denied - care that could potentially save his life.

Free to shine
21st February 2009, 02:47 PM
How terribly sad. A young life could be lost and it makes me wonder how any parent could stand by and not start to see the truth of the matter. Good on you for trying Carmel, I hope something changes for this young man.

Axiom142
22nd February 2009, 12:23 AM
Yes, there is a pregnancy rundown thing, but I don't know the actual name. And auditing does stop at 6 months. I saw a public getting the auditing. There is also assists. I was pregnant while on staff for 2 months (miscarried) and I have to say that I was treated very well. People were told not to shout or create any upsets in my vicinity and I was given assists to help with the morning sickness.

With regard other illnesses, there is a Class V auditor at Plymouth Org called David Hutt. This auditor used to get epileptic fits. He had tons of them while auditing me, I would just wait for them to pass and then he would read up on where he was and continue the session.
After he had a fit while auditing a public, and she screamed out loud in such a terrified manner that we all ran out to see what had happened... Susie (Senior C/S) and Vicky (OED) tried to get him to take regular meds, but he refused.

God, this is sickening.

Not taking any medication when he gets regular seizures is lunacy. Surely he must have realised by now that Scientology cannot cure his condition.

Perhaps he will have read of what happened to Jett Travolta by now and seen some sense?

I wouldnít be surprised if he has been told to get medical treatment or even been thrown off staff now. The CoS donít want any seriously ill people on their lines right now.

Axiom142

Axiom142
22nd February 2009, 12:38 AM
I've just had some disturbing news tonight. I trust the source of the info.

One of the kids from Sydney, who joined CMO some years ago, is now back here in Sydney (after some years of being in the States), getting a "program" for a physical condition that sounds potentially deadly.

...

Carmel,

I hope this guy gets some treatment very soon. Perhaps a anonymous letter to OSA mentioning that it wouldnít be good PR if anything happened to him, might get some action?

The idea that Scientologists donít need medical treatment seems to be rather common.

I had an argument with a long-term (ex-GO) Scientologist a couple of years ago about this. Well, I say argument, it was more a case of me politely asking a couple of questions and her getting rather angry and ranting at me, accusing me of being on the wrong side.

Anyway, the gist of her ranting was that medical doctors were all as bad as Psychiatrists and in league with the pharmaceutical companies, acting with the sole aim of keeping mankind enslaved. And besides, why would Scientologists need to see a doctor when Scientology could handle any condition?

This person is not just a fringe Scientologist, she is a well-known and very active member of the cult who runs one of the CoS front groups in the UK.

The CoS has very publicly stated that they demand that all members get medical treatment when necessary, but it simply isnít true. There are many who think that Scientology can handle all their problems. And continue thinking this until after it is too late.

When I was in the Sea Org in Ď87, the HAS of St Hill Foundation had a pain in his lower abdomen. It just kept getting worse, but he refused to see a doctor (canít interrupt the important business of saving a planet), just tried to Ďnot-isí the pain.

Finally, he collapsed in agony and was rushed to hospital where he had his appendix removed. Apparently, it was so inflamed, it was about to burst. If they had delayed more than a few hours, he would have been dead.

Axiom142

Feral
22nd February 2009, 04:36 AM
I remember this young man. I attended a wedding at his parents house in about '87 I nursed him as his folks were busy. I gave him his formula and burped him. He threw up a bit on my jacket. I kissed the top of his head.

He is now 23.

I will be very distressed to know that his well being is being compromised for financial, 'political' or production reasons.

Seriously.

scooter
22nd February 2009, 07:13 AM
If my surmising is correct. this is the same young man who was left to look after my daughter and another one-year-old in the old Interne room in the org.

He's a nice guy and should be looked after.

He's the only one involved in my daughter's death who ever expressed remorse, and he of all people didn't need to as he was placed in a position he should never have been.

If the C/S is saying his program must be done before seing a doctor, perhaps the C/S should be reminded of HCOB "Physically Ill PCs and Pre-OTs" - this reference alone should be enough to get my young friend ordered to the doctors.

I will be very pissed if something bad happens here.

Carmel
22nd February 2009, 07:33 AM
If my surmising is correct. this is the same young man who was left to look after my daughter and another one-year-old in the old Interne room in the org.

He's a nice guy and should be looked after.

He's the only one involved in my daughter's death who ever expressed remorse, and he of all people didn't need to as he was placed in a position he should never have been.

If the C/S is saying his program must be done before seing a doctor, perhaps the C/S should be reminded of HCOB "Physically Ill PCs and Pre-OTs" - this reference alone should be enough to get my young friend ordered to the doctors.

I will be very pissed if something bad happens here.

Yep, and the other ref being HCOB "Dianetics and Illness".

Human Again
22nd February 2009, 09:28 AM
How about we call OSA now and make sure Vicki knows about this situation and gets this guy to a doctor. Even if her motivation is to avoid a potential Legal/PR situation who cares?

I'll call if need be. I'll just need to find the phone number. I do not know who this guy is and perhaps it's better from someone who knows him but I am willing to do it if no one else does.

Natascha

Feral
22nd February 2009, 09:45 AM
How about we call OSA now and make sure Vicki knows about this situation and gets this guy to a doctor. Even if her motivation is to avoid a potential Legal/PR situation who cares?

I'll call if need be. I'll just need to find the phone number. I do not know who this guy is and perhaps it's better from someone who knows him but I am willing to do it if no one else does.

Natascha


Tasch, this 'was' the call.:yes:

Human Again
22nd February 2009, 09:47 AM
How closely do they watch the board, Feral?

Feral
22nd February 2009, 10:19 AM
They responded in one way or another to all of the important points and at all of the 'appropriate' times.

Just now 'Scared Stiff' has been outed to her husband by OSA for things she posted here on this board in the last week.

We think they watch every thread and read every post from the more 'controversial' posters

uniquemand
22nd February 2009, 10:45 AM
Of course they do! That's their flipping JOB! Suppress any inquiry into the scam, internal or external. The joke is on them, though, because they don't understand the scam they are part of. If they actually understand the scam, then there is a special place in my hell for them.

Carmel
22nd February 2009, 11:23 AM
"There was movement at the station, for the word had got around......."

Less than 24 hours, and reportedly already orders have come down from up-lines (as well as a local impingement on OSA here), to get this kid the medical attention he needs. Let's hope that the medical care he'll be receiving is not too late, and that it will deal with the problem.

Needless to say, it's apparent that OSA does closely monitor this board.

Goodonya folks. :thumbsup:

scooter
22nd February 2009, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=Carmel;208828]"There was movement at the station, for the word had got around......."

...Needless to say, it's apparent that OSA does closely monitor this board.

:omg: I'd never have guessed that, Carmel. :p

FoTi
22nd February 2009, 09:35 PM
If my surmising is correct. this is the same young man who was left to look after my daughter and another one-year-old in the old Interne room in the org.

He's a nice guy and should be looked after.

He's the only one involved in my daughter's death who ever expressed remorse, and he of all people didn't need to as he was placed in a position he should never have been.

Scooter, you never mentioned anything about losing a daughter in your story so far.....did you just not get to that so far in your story? This sounds really sad. :bigcry:

Kookaburra
23rd February 2009, 02:20 AM
They just never seem to learn, do they? They've been making wild promises to cure things they can't cure, or just flat out refusing to pay for medical treatment in the case of Sea Org members, and people have been suffering and dying as a result for decades now.

Hopefully this young man will not go the same route as Colin Gow, another young ANZO Sea Org member who died for lack of $100 to get a tooth pulled. Go to post # 6 on the page linked.

Colin Gow's story (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=143007&highlight=Colin+Gow#post143007)

Please, anyone who has any information on this current sick kid, please post it. If we keep the spotlight publicly focused on this situation, perhaps he will stay alive.

OSA, get busy. I know you're reading this. If you sit back and let him die, I promise you that there won't be a single person in this country who doesn't hear about it.

Remember Lisa? Remember Portland? Remember Feb 10? Want moar? Then wake the fuck up and start behaving like decent human beings!

Dulloldfart
23rd February 2009, 02:46 AM
:omg: I'd never have guessed that, Carmel. :p

It's actually quite remarkable if every single post is read by an OSA Int human, as that is a huge amount of work. I could understand electronically searching for a number of hot keywords, or reading every post by certain key Aussies, or threads with hot-sounding titles, but every single post? I have my doubts.

It's not just anyone there who would be allowed to read this message board, as this message board is full of very dangerous writings. By which I mean one would have to be a VERY staunch CofS supporter to not get "infected" by the torrent of truth that pours through these pages every day, which would tend to amplify any doubts one had.

Paul

Feral
23rd February 2009, 03:34 AM
It's actually quite remarkable if every single post is read by an OSA Int human, as that is a huge amount of work. I could understand electronically searching for a number of hot keywords, or reading every post by certain key Aussies, or threads with hot-sounding titles, but every single post? I have my doubts.

It's not just anyone there who would be allowed to read this message board, as this message board is full of very dangerous writings. By which I mean one would have to be a VERY staunch CofS supporter to not get "infected" by the torrent of truth that pours through these pages every day, which would tend to amplify any doubts one had.

Paul

I'm sure it's just as you say. But with one addition, I think they read the ones that they do read as soon as they written.

Once bitten
23rd February 2009, 05:31 AM
They read the board. My ex-brother-in-law Nigel Gray reads the board for Mikey, and reports all the juicy stuff to him. He said as much on the radio broadcast. It's how Mike knew I was me. (Me was I) well who I was, and still am.

Nigey also has been reading stories written on here and on KiwiAnon about himself and has had a cry about his nasty brother posting the truth about him. DONT READ THE BOARD THEN NIGEY if you don't like what you see!

I think that we know full well that they read the board, and we keep them better informed about what's going on in scn than the cofs does!

Btw, congrats to Carmel and others with regards to getting them onto saving that young man. That's really good work, and if by OSA reading our board one life gets saved that would otherwise have been lost, then it's all worth it.

cantsay
23rd February 2009, 05:49 AM
medical care is only insisted on in a "covering our asses" way, or if there is a responsible CS who insists on it.

The number of times I was told to drive myself into the org for assists when I was sick is rediculous. Imagine puking your guts up with a migraine - you cant see, you cant stand, you sure as hell cant string a sentance together, and some moron is telling you to DRIVE into the church for a 2 minute assist. It used to piss me off no end at the time.

I was not allowed to take any medication for migraines. And being the good little auditor, the only medical attention I got when I was pregnant was a trip to emergency whenever I would hemorrhage. When doctors told me to take asprin to thin my blood I refused because it was a drug. You certainly wouldnt take drugs giving birth - that would be an awful thing to do to your child. geez.

I recall (with a lot of shame) two incidents I was involved in -

-seeing a friend of mine in hospital less than 24 hours after having a caesarian, and advising her to try not to have the painkillers. She had just had major surgery for Petes sake....

- a new pc had an asthma attack in session. Instead of getting his medication, we continued. I shudder to think what would have happened if he hadnt managed to keep calm and get the attack under control. I "kept my TRs in" and told him "what turns it on will turn it off". God almighty, I hate the blinkered way I saw things then. Its disgusting. That poor kid could have been in real trouble.

SchwimmelPuckel
23rd February 2009, 08:50 AM
Interesting way that there's a 'comm-line' from the SP's here.. To save a young mans life! - Even SP's reminding the true believers about their own 'policy'!

What is the world coming to!?

I hope things go well..

Oh.. OSA, you don't need to thank us for saving you from a PR flap.. We don't expect that. We think you deserve PR flaps, lest you relapse into boredom.

--/--

Re. OSA reading here.. ANZO is currently a 'PR hill 10' with a 'SO mission' there to handle it. There'll be a handful of posters who's watched diligently.

:yes:

owl
23rd February 2009, 10:00 AM
auditing is just ~going over~ things in the past so no that wouldnt harm the baby. it's the same things you do in intensive counselling i think.

i guess its a personal choice to get help if youre sick but its sad because the people are pressured into not getting help. theres such a kind of peer pressure/passive aggressive/group think kind of thing in scientology so it isnt as easy as making your own choice because youll have tons of people who will spend hours to convince you otherwise (convince is putting it nicely..)

i think there is also a belief that things like anestisa (omg i cant spell) and other things will add problems to a person so they want to avoid that, which i can understand.

Feral
23rd February 2009, 10:35 AM
auditing is just ~going over~ things in the past so no that wouldnt harm the baby. it's the same things you do in intensive counselling i think.

<SNIP>.


So why aren't certain rundowns allowed after the 2nd trimester?

owl
23rd February 2009, 12:17 PM
So why aren't certain rundowns allowed after the 2nd trimester?


are you serious?? creepy. i dont know!

Feral
23rd February 2009, 11:20 PM
Yes, I am serious.:yes:

And please don't call me 'creepy', it's...well, it's creepy!:p

lol.

Dulloldfart
24th February 2009, 12:28 AM
So why aren't certain rundowns allowed after the 2nd trimester?

Didn't this start after Hubbard invented body thetans? The idea being that after the first trimester there was probably a thetan hooked up with the foetus, and running Dianetics or Power or OT3 might result in that thetan being "blown" just like "any body thetan"?

(Not joking here about Hubbard's prohibition, although the wisdom of it is something else.)

Paul

mate
24th February 2009, 01:00 AM
are you serious?? creepy. i dont know!
Feral, that was very naughty! owl had no idea that he didn't know what he was talking about and now he does not know what you are talking about.

owl, use the internet to find out what NOTs is all about, then you will understand.

Regards, David.

Alan
24th February 2009, 03:56 AM
I've just had some disturbing news tonight. I trust the source of the info.

One of the kids from Sydney, who joined CMO some years ago, is now back here in Sydney (after some years of being in the States), getting a "program" for a physical condition that sounds potentially deadly.

This guy (he's maybe 25 now), is now at the base at Dundas, and is failing physically. He has been sent 'home' because he is ill. We have 'free' medical care here, but apparently he's not getting it (I don't know how long he was ill for, before he was sent back from the States). Apparently his dad went out to the base to pick him up and take him to a doctor, 'cause he's been back here for over two weeks now but hasn't yet seen a doctor about his condition. Reportedly, he refused to go with his dad, because the C/S has programmed him for a 'handling' and he's been told to get the program done first.

Per the refs I know and knew too, one would always get medical treatment first, and then maybe have auditing as an assist to help in recovery. That's what we always did (or C/Sed for).

Apparently the dad is very concerned, because he can't talk sense into the kid, and his life is at risk. By the same token though, I believe that the mum and the dad would be somewhat taking on board what the C/S says or has instructed. This scenario sounds too bizzare, but I have been told that this is what is occurring.

Both parents are still 'in' and I'm on their black list, so I can't just call them up and speak to them directly. I last spoke with him when he called me from LA before Christmas, but I think he was calling for OSA - even if it were possible, it's not like I could just rock up to the base and say g'day. I have looked up the 'refs' that apply and I'll be forwarding them to someone who is still in contact with the dad, so the dad can then pass them on to him. Hopefully he will see some sense, see a doctor and get the tests and treatment he needs. I'm not sure what else to do at this point. This guy is no longer a minor, so it's not like we can get hold of some authority and report it.

The trouble is, we are not talking about a young man who has lived life. He's a 3rd generation scn'ist. He joined Class V org staff when he was very young, then joined the SO while still very young, and has been without any familial support for some years now. Knowing his mother and the group think within the SO, he probably has the view that the medical profession is only good for fixing broken bones or something to succumb to in the case of a life and death emergency.

For the record, a certain C/S from AOSH ANZO is playing with fire here (as he has many times before). I hope that this post is seen by someone who can see the potential 'threat' here and who has the authority to send an order down to AOSH ANZO, to get this young SO member the medical care that he is currently being denied - care that could potentially save his life.

Carmel:

Can you send me the name of the Agency this comes under - I will contact them - or have one of my doctors contact them.

This would come from the University of Texas Medical Center in Dallas!

Its part of my new job! :)

Alan

Carmel
24th February 2009, 03:59 AM
Carmel:

Can you send me the name of the Agency this comes under - I will contact them - or have one of my doctors contact them.

This would come from the University of Texas Medical Center in Dallas!

Its part of my new job! :)

Alan

I'll pm you. :)

owl
24th February 2009, 06:37 AM
Yes, I am serious.:yes:

And please don't call me 'creepy', it's...well, it's creepy!:p

lol.


lol what? u seriously thought i was calling u creepy? i was calling the auditing prengnant thing creepy..... i dont know how u could think i was calling u creepy

Human Again
24th February 2009, 06:44 AM
I haven't seen Feral face to face. Ferals can be creepy, maybe he is creepy. Feral , are you creepy?http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Ashatani/creeping.gif

scooter
24th February 2009, 07:25 AM
OK I have no references handy to back me up on this but I do know that KTL Clay Table was barred for pregnant women after a series of miscarriages.

I suspect a similar thing (maybe not so drastic in effect) occurred with late running of engrams on pregnant women, causing the "don't audit past six months" for engrams, Power etc..

A similar set of occurrences led to pregnant women being debarred from the Purif.

Feral
24th February 2009, 08:25 AM
lol what? u seriously thought i was calling u creepy? i was calling the auditing prengnant thing creepy..... i dont know how u could think i was calling u creepy

I was teasing.

Feral
24th February 2009, 08:34 AM
I haven't seen Feral face to face. Ferals can be creepy, maybe he is creepy. Feral , are you creepy?http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Ashatani/creeping.gif

I'm a bit fatter than 'him'.

Carmel
24th February 2009, 08:47 AM
I'm a bit fatter than 'him'.
Maybe so, but ya name gives it away boyo! :p

Sorry Owl, our Feral is clearly feral at times - he's untameable (:ohmy: the best have tried! :coolwink: )

randomx
24th February 2009, 09:40 AM
Scientology does not deliver what`s promised.

Repost from kiwianon board. Posted by ididntcomeback

Peppered all through Hubbard`s books and lectures are assurances about
the longevity of clears and OTs.
If you read about the capabilities of a trained, in ethics, scientologist,
you are reading about a master race.
All the usual health issues that plague the rest of humanity are
things that the scientologist never need worry about.

It`s part of what keeps the scientologist on board.

"Oh well my life has been one of suffering, self sacrifice, poverty,
humiliation, and deprivation ...but at least I`ll always have my health."

Before Mike Ferris took over the Office of special affairs in New Zealand, he had a
predecessor named Bruce Gibson.
Bruce has been an FSM, and a field auditor, flitting between
Sydney, Australia and South Africa since leaving OSA in 1983 or thereabouts.
He has been a dedicated full time scientologist for the last forty years at least.
He recently turned 65 and decided to get health insurance in South Africa.

Hubbard instructs scientologists not to get insurance.
Invest in your (scio) self instead is what Hubbard recommends.
So what`s up there ? Why would Bruce go against Hubbard`s advice.???

During the insurance qualifying medical it was discovered that Bruce has
prostate cancer.

He has returned to Sydney form South Africa to undergo surgery.

Why isn`t he getting auditing ?
What overts did he commit to pull in this worst case scenario ?
Why do scientologists have to come here to find out about facts like this ?

Are the top brass afraid that this information will be proof positive that
Scientology takes everything you have and has nothing to offer when
you actually need help ?

Oh but we can give him assists ?
Bruce is scheduled for surgery. That`s a lifetime scientologists vote of
who he has confidence in.

Good luck Bruce.
Hope you stop phoning people who know me and asking after me
when you get back on your feet.

Dumb fuck !!

Carmel
24th February 2009, 10:48 AM
Scientology does not deliver what`s promised.

Repost from kiwianon board. Posted by ididntcomeback

Peppered all through Hubbard`s books and lectures are assurances about
the longevity of clears and OTs.
If you read about the capabilities of a trained, in ethics, scientologist,
you are reading about a master race.
All the usual health issues that plague the rest of humanity are
things that the scientologist never need worry about.

It`s part of what keeps the scientologist on board.

"Oh well my life has been one of suffering, self sacrifice, poverty,
humiliation, and deprivation ...but at least I`ll always have my health."

Before Mike Ferris took over the Office of special affairs in New Zealand, he had a
predecessor named Bruce Gibson.
Bruce has been an FSM, and a field auditor, flitting between
Sydney, Australia and South Africa since leaving OSA in 1983 or thereabouts.
He has been a dedicated full time scientologist for the last forty years at least.
He recently turned 65 and decided to get health insurance in South Africa.

Hubbard instructs scientologists not to get insurance.
Invest in your (scio) self instead is what Hubbard recommends.
So what`s up there ? Why would Bruce go against Hubbard`s advice.???

During the insurance qualifying medical it was discovered that Bruce has
prostate cancer.

He has returned to Sydney form South Africa to undergo surgery.

Why isn`t he getting auditing ?
What overts did he commit to pull in this worst case scenario ?
Why do scientologists have to come here to find out about facts like this ?

Are the top brass afraid that this information will be proof positive that
Scientology takes everything you have and has nothing to offer when
you actually need help ?

Oh but we can give him assists ?
Bruce is scheduled for surgery. That`s a lifetime scientologists vote of
who he has confidence in.

Good luck Bruce.
Hope you stop phoning people who know me and asking after me
when you get back on your feet.

Dumb fuck !!
A bit harsh I reck'n, Randomx.

- Bruce often kept his own counsel on much. From my experience, he wasn't a 'ronbot' who couldn't think for himself. I observed that he often stood up to 'group think'. IMO he cares for others and he is a good man.

- Where does Hubbard instruct scientologists not to get insurance? I've never seen such an instruction.

I find it hard to believe that you have categorized Bruce as you have, and that you are slagging off at him the way you are, especially when he is now faced with this cancer. Despite what may have gone down between you and him, I don't get it. Do you not have a heart? My advice to you would be, get a grip.

I hope and pray that Bruce wins this battle.

Sir Facer
24th February 2009, 12:01 PM
If my surmising is correct. this is the same young man who was left to look after my daughter and another one-year-old in the old Interne room in the org.

He's a nice guy and should be looked after.

He's the only one involved in my daughter's death who ever expressed remorse, and he of all people didn't need to as he was placed in a position he should never have been.

If the C/S is saying his program must be done before seing a doctor, perhaps the C/S should be reminded of HCOB "Physically Ill PCs and Pre-OTs" - this reference alone should be enough to get my young friend ordered to the doctors.

I will be very pissed if something bad happens here.

I will also be terribly pissed off if anything happens to this young man , as I happen to love him very much. How Sad. His mum & dad will be pissed, not to mention his brother, whom he is very close to & we all know the connection of why they are so close. I just hope he gets medical attention or OSA will once again have another major flap on their lines as sadly we know who he is................. Lets hope the next news is we hear he has been put in "correct care".
Also, I find it disgusting that the Sea Org send a very ill person back to Australia because they won't pay the medical bills for the SO Staff. Isn't this the aggreement if you join, after making millions & millions on the BASICS one would think a young man who has worked the most insane hours for the last 10 years (or more), since he was twelve, could atleast handle his medical bills. This is worthy of a major investigation.
Thanks for posting this one Carmel & Scooter.:thumbsup:

randomx
24th February 2009, 12:41 PM
This was a repost from kiwianon.

here is one quote re insurance...

"Advanced Courses [in Scientology] are the most valuable service on the planet. Life insurance, houses, cars, stocks, bonds, college savings, all are transitory and impermanent... There is nothing to compare with Advanced Courses. They are infinitely valuable and transcend time itself."

- L. Ron Hubbard speaking of his Operating Thetan Courses, Flag Mission Order 375

I have no doubt that Mr Gibson is a good man. As a good man I trust he will
be informing all of his many selectees that a lifetime of being faithful to Hubbard`s tech is no insurance against cancer. Anything less would be recklessly negligent.


A bit harsh I reck'n, Randomx.

- Bruce often kept his own counsel on much. From my experience, he wasn't a 'ronbot' who couldn't think for himself. I observed that he often stood up to 'group think'. IMO he cares for others and he is a good man.

- Where does Hubbard instruct scientologists not to get insurance? I've never seen such an instruction.

I find it hard to believe that you have categorized Bruce as you have, and that you are slagging off at him the way you are, especially when he is now faced with this cancer. Despite what may have gone down between you and him, I don't get it. Do you not have a heart? My advice to you would be, get a grip.

I hope and pray that Bruce wins this battle.

Panda Termint
24th February 2009, 02:47 PM
Randomx,
Let's face it; we were all dumb fucks at one time or another, yourself included.
Bruce is a good guy and I wish him well in his battle with cancer.
I suggest that a little compassion will do a lot more to further the cause of Kiwianons than any amount of "getting-even" or settling scores.
Ridicule or calling him a dumb fuck just doesn't cut it.
Good luck, Bruce. :flowers:

Zander
24th February 2009, 03:49 PM
Good luck Bruce.
Hope you stop phoning people who know me and asking after me
when you get back on your feet.

Dumb fuck !!

The callous contempt emanating from these words is shocking, considering the guy's ill with cancer. Where's your humanity?

You're complaining about him asking after you? Jeez....



I have no doubt that Mr Gibson is a good man. As a good man I trust he will
be informing all of his many selectees that a lifetime of being faithful to Hubbard`s tech is no insurance against cancer. Anything less would be recklessly negligent.

Carmel pointed out the harshness of your post and yet this was your reply. Have a heart feller!

I don't know you Bruce, but best of luck!

Feral
25th February 2009, 05:00 AM
Bruce is a very good friend of mine. He has stayed at my place and so has his wife when they were leaving the SO which was extremely traumatic time for them as CO CLO ANZO was more willing to kill Bruce, who is a class 8, than let him route out of the SO and go back into private field practice.

She promised him; 'I'm going to get you and this time your South African friends won't be able to save you"

She did too, just after he comped his GAT line up and got going again she arranged an RTC rep to pull the folders of Bruce's celeb PCs. They 'found' some 'out tech' and began a comm ev on him.

It was so obviously bogus that they could not even tell him what the 'out tech' was. The senior C/S, Wayne Peachy intervened and it was reduced to a retrain, so there was poor 60+ year old Bruce doing his GAT line up again, for the second time since leaving the SO. He now owed Jo and Tom Read his F/L bill and for two lots of GAT training, he had no retirement, he was auditing at a reduced rate for their field practice after that for some time to work off the loan they had given him, it truly was a scientology nightmare.

He has helped me with my daughter and promised to C/S her folders for life.

He was one of the few friends I had that organised Scn was able to cut me off from, OSA knew I was after his current contact details and managed to stop my comm. I was able to at least reach every other person I wanted to reach, whether they took what I had to say on board or not is another matter.

I hope he comes through this shining.

Human Again
25th February 2009, 05:32 AM
I've just had some disturbing news tonight. I trust the source of the info.

One of the kids from Sydney, who joined CMO some years ago, is now back here in Sydney (after some years of being in the States), getting a "program" for a physical condition that sounds potentially deadly.

I hope that this post is seen by someone who can see the potential 'threat' here and who has the authority to send an order down to AOSH ANZO, to get this young SO member the medical care that he is currently being denied - care that could potentially save his life.

The person holding CLO MLO and I chatted on the phone over the last few days. This young man had his medical exam yesterday and has a medical program to follow as well as his auditing program.

I know and trust the person I spoke to. Once alerted he found out quickly what the problems were and they have been resolved. There are no stops on the messenger getting his medical actions now.

I hope that somehow, somewhere he finds out that people on this board were on his side and pushing for proper treatment and not just "theetie wheetie" she'll be right if we solve his PTSness auditing etc. :D

Zinjifar
25th February 2009, 05:33 AM
We have other fish to fry.

See: Salmon Rushdie

Zinj

Carmel
25th February 2009, 10:11 AM
"There was movement at the station, for the word had got around......."

Less than 24 hours, and reportedly already orders have come down from up-lines (as well as a local impingement on OSA here), to get this kid the medical attention he needs. Let's hope that the medical care he'll be receiving is not too late, and that it will deal with the problem.

Needless to say, it's apparent that OSA does closely monitor this board.

Goodonya folks. :thumbsup:

Now that it's been confirmed that the young man needing the medical care and attention is in fact receiving it, I want to acknowledge OSA Int.

I got a voicemail message (because I didn't take the call in time) on my mobile/cell phone within 20 hours of posting my first post, regarding this young man. It was from a guy from OSA Int. He assured me that the young man in question would be receiving the tests he needed the next day. He assured me that he would be receiving all the care and attention needed despite the cost. He said that orders had been given to AOSH ANZO, and that there would be no stops. He also requested that I posted this information on the ex scientologist message board.

I alluded to this in my post above but I was waiting to see what eventuated before I relayed the message. I was somewhat baffled at receiving the message, but then I thought that a 'trade' with the 'enemy', given this particular scenario, wasn't such a bad thing. As it turned out, OSA Int did the right thing here (despite whatever purpose they did it for), hence this post.

We've helped the CofS here avoid a potential PR flap, but that's a small price to pay for a potential life and the well being being of a young man.

On this occasion OSA Int, it's been a pleasure doing business with you - thank you for your fast response.

PS to ESMBers: I'll be posting this on another thread, so let's not derail this one with any discussion about it here.

Zinjifar
25th February 2009, 10:15 AM
OSA Int is populated by human beings. Once they're done being 'homo novis' the rest of us humans will welcome them back

In the meantime, any signs of humanity are welcome, even if they're just faking it.

Zinj

sallydannce
25th February 2009, 10:27 AM
Now that it's been confirmed that the young man needing the medical care and attention is in fact receiving it, I want to acknowledge OSA Int.

I got a voicemail message (because I didn't take the call in time) on my mobile/cell phone within 20 hours of posting my first post, regarding this young man. It was from a guy from OSA Int. He assured me that the young man in question would be receiving the tests he needed the next day. He assured me that he would be receiving all the care and attention needed despite the cost. He said that orders had been given to AOSH ANZO, and that there would be no stops. He also requested that I posted this information on the ex scientologist message board.

I alluded to this in my post above but I was waiting to see what eventuated before I relayed the message. I was somewhat baffled at receiving the message, but then I thought that a 'trade' with the 'enemy', given this particular scenario, wasn't such a bad thing. As it turned out, OSA Int did the right thing here (despite whatever purpose they did it for), hence this post.

We've helped the CofS here avoid a potential PR flap, but that's a small price to pay for a potential life and the well being being of a young man.

On this occasion OSA Int, it's been a pleasure doing business with you - thank you for your fast response.

PS to ESMBers: I'll be posting this on another thread, so let's not derail this one with any discussion about it here.

Nice work Carmel!

Thanks for putting your monitoring skills to good use OSA. Genuinely appreciate it.

Once bitten
25th February 2009, 11:40 PM
Randomx,
Let's face it; we were all dumb fucks at one time or another, yourself included.
Bruce is a good guy and I wish him well in his battle with cancer.
I suggest that a little compassion will do a lot more to further the cause of Kiwianons than any amount of "getting-even" or settling scores.
Ridicule or calling him a dumb fuck just doesn't cut it.
Good luck, Bruce. :flowers:

Just want to say that Randomx's sentiments about Bruce are NOT representative of the general consensus of opinion of Kiwianon members.

Thank you.

Good twin
25th February 2009, 11:46 PM
We have other fish to fry.

See: Salmon Rushdie

Zinj

Did you read "Haroun and the Sea of Stories"??? My absolute FAVE......:thumbsup:

Iknowtoomuch
25th February 2009, 11:48 PM
The church can't have yet another flap....:D

Feral
26th February 2009, 12:20 AM
Yet it will....

Iknowtoomuch
26th February 2009, 06:29 AM
Yet it will....


Exactly. I think they are doing exactly what Beaokid said they would. They are "fixing" a few things so it's not so bad, then when the attention is off of them (if it ever is at this point) it will go back to exactly what it was like before. :duh:

Kookaburra
26th February 2009, 08:17 AM
Exactly. I think they are doing exactly what Beaokid said they would. They are "fixing" a few things so it's not so bad, then when the attention is off of them (if it ever is at this point) it will go back to exactly what it was like before. :duh:

Unfortunately, I think you're right. It is nice to see just a touch of humanity left in CoS, and may have saved the kids life, but I think it happened because they were exposed and to not seek medical treatment at that point would have caused an enormous PR flap.

Merman
30th April 2009, 09:47 PM
That all illness in greater or lesser degree and all foul-ups stem directly and only from a PTS condition. (ref: PTS Handling)

Thus all caved-in conditions, illness, etc., can be traced back to a misunderstood symbol, strange as that may seem. (ref: Overts, What Lies Behind Them?)

ok...ummm.....

So ALL illness is caused ONLY from a PTS condition. But also, ALL illness can be traced back to a symbol that was misunderstood.

:confused2:

So does this mean an SP can only suppress someone by giving them a misunderstood symbol? Combining this two statements it would seem so.


I guess this is why it doesn't matter how many cigs and cups of coffee you drink? You can live on fast food? These are common things I've observed among staff and sea org more often than non-staff.


If Scientologists really KNOW that they have the answers to prevent illness, to some significant degree... why not have an independent study show how OT VIIIs, Sea Org, etc. are far less likely to get minor or major illnesses?

A simple independent study of this would not be a medical claim, just a study, and the data would make it's members very happy and they could tell their friends of this research finding.

Zinjifar
30th April 2009, 09:52 PM
Maybe it should be on the 'doublethink thread', since, 'physical conditions' are based in 'engrams' and 'PTS Sits' etc., yet Scientology has positively obsessive fixation on 'toxins' and 'drugs' and 'radiation' that the 'spiritual' being should be able to shrug off...

Zinj

Merman
30th April 2009, 10:18 PM
Most logical evaluations of Hubbard's absolute truths (there are no absolutes. oh no! another doublethink example! lol), lead to examples of doublethink.

It is like any other Religion, faith-based.

The only difference is, Scientologists think that it is science based (based on documented results from Hubbard's research and personal experience, that's scientific right?).

It is insulting to tell a Scientologist that engrams, reactive mind, thetan, pts, sp, etc. are all faith-based concepts. They are convinced that they KNOW, not believe, these things.

It's been a while since I looked at a Tech Dictionary, but I remember one of the numerous definitions for Scientology defines it as a science (while others define it as a philosophy or religion).

A science, philosophy and religion. 3 in 1 special. what more could you ask for?

Zinjifar
30th April 2009, 10:23 PM
Scientology is 'An Applied Religious Philosophy'. As a philosophy it's merely silly; as a religion, it's no sillier than others. It's in the *application* that it's socially offensive and even criminal.

Zinj

xseaorguk
30th April 2009, 10:44 PM
While I was 'in' I could never explain to anybody why it was a religion, and I am a qualified 'Minister of the Church'....:whistling:
Maybe you guyz should call me Reverand...:roflmao: