Why are SO members so stupid? they can just leave!

[Flag-2005]

SO members so stupid? they can just leave!

This seems to be the big OUT-R for many people looking at our plight.

I only started to research and looking at anti-scio stuff three days ago, while having many years as staff in a Class V Org, then 3 years SO, and then three years hiding in a loss.

So I can only dwell on this issue but closing the gap in the deference in R would be helpful.

But I would summerize like this.

Scientology and especially the SO is not a place of peace or tranquility.

Many expect a religion to be that.

Scientology is a place of war and randomity and action and the largest danger to mankind is brought to light and fought.

Only a coward leaves the battlefield during a combat, leaving his friends, mum, dad or wife behind.

So being Declared is a nightmare for SO members. Their eternity has been taken and they are forced to desert their loved ones. And now their loved ones are living with a stigma due to their past relationship with you.

"why did you pull in an SP as a son?" is probably a common listing question given to SO members by other staff. If not in words then only in looks.

I wonder.....

Did the single fact of issuing so many SP declares bring down the show?

Would some of these top SO execs be outside if they were not Declared?

If David Mayo or others never left due to being thrown out would there be this current situation?

Perhaps David had planned Rons last days and even made them happen. You would have to cave your self in if thats true..

Declaring the Snr C/S I would have thought would end the show for him back then.

Maybe he did too..
He has been trying to do himself in for a long time...

[Zander]

It's a mental prison rather than a physical one, although there are some physical elements (security, cameras etc).

This must be the hardest type of prison to escape from I would have thought. Even when you've gone physically you're still there to some extent.

Zander

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Flag 2005.

Read up some material on Domestic Violence, and read the WHYs that prevent an abused person from leaving.

The methods that keep people on staff, on public and in the SO are the perfect model of the psychological aspects of domestic violence.

SO members in particular really believe they are the planet's frontline defences, and that this is the biggest game they can "play". I remember a couple of high-ranking CLO staff who were being investigated from something, and they were facing expulsion and DECLARE. The one who told me, was devastated. "What am I going to do? Go back to making pottery for the local markets?"

It's the same as battered house-wife syndrome--"If he does this when he loves me, what he might do if I ran away could be worse." The fear of loss of a roof over your head, and protection of any children is what compels many women to put up with this, and SO members are in a similar situation. Many of them are disconnected from their families and the only roof over their head they can see is the underside of the triple bunk above them. These people are not readily equipped to get a "normal" job, Many of them couldn't even sell movie tickets without a proper Hat Write-up.

[sandygirl]

Flag 2005

They are convinced that if they don't succeed in the SO they are DEGRADED BEINGS!!!!!!

It may sound stupid to someone in the outside, but it's a biggie inside. It directly affect your perception of your self worth. It also affects the perception of your loved ones.

How can the Christians control with the threat of an eternity in hell? Exact Same Principle.

Note one of the questions thrown at protesters -What about your eternity?

[poppy]

When I tried to leave the SO I was put under 24hr watch for 3 months. I had a security guard with me during the day while I did 'MEST' work and another security guard kept watch outside my dorm while I slept at night. This went on for three months until I changed my mind and decided to stay. After doing 'conditions' etc I was put back on post (demoted though!) and I blew afew months later when I was sure they weren't watching me anymore!

[Dulloldfart]

When I tried to leave the SO I was put under 24hr watch for 3 months. I had a security guard with me during the day while I did 'MEST' work and another security guard kept watch outside my dorm while I slept at night. This went on for three months until I changed my mind and decided to stay.

At least they don't add a bill for all the guard man-hours onto your freeloader debt. Let's see... 24hrs x 30 days x 3 months = 2,160 man-hours at 12 cents an hour = $259!

Paul

[SchwimmelPuckel]

You've been away from CoS business too long Paul! - They'll carge $1200 an hour I'm sure.

:yes:

[Zander]

Reading what others have said, I should have said it's a mental prison as well as a physical prison. I was in before the security and cameras had gone way over the top.

But I do remember getting a meter check at flag from a security guy who had a gun on his belt. It felt very very weird, like, what if I get a dirty needle, you gonna shoot me?

Zander

[sandygirl]

Quote from Poppy:

When I tried to leave the SO I was put under 24hr watch for 3 months. I had a security guard with me during the day while I did 'MEST' work and another security guard kept watch outside my dorm while I slept at night. This went on for three months until I changed my mind and decided to stay. After doing 'conditions' etc I was put back on post (demoted though!) and I blew afew months later when I was sure they weren't watching me anymore

I'm sorry you had to experience that Poppy.

This kindof crap makes me SICK!!!!!

[sallydannce]

Hi Flag-2005,

Why can't anyone at any level of scientology just get up and leave? What's holding them back?

Phobias!

Members are indoctrinated to be phobic about leaving. They simply cannot imagine life without scientology. I couldn't. Even when the org is a madhouse, even when things are so utterly insane for the person, the thought of abandoning the group is too painful. Rational thinking is obliterated by the thought-stopping phobias which are instilled into scientologists very early in the game. (KSW1)

These phobias are instilled with various LRH refs & re-enforced member-to-member. Here are just a few:

From Clear to Eternity - don't waste this brief breath in eternity.

KSW 1 has many but this one will hold a person steadfast to scientology quite nicely: "The whole agonised future of this planet, every man, woman & child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depends on what you do here and now with and in scientology." Think about that one! If you leave the group you are somehow responsible for the agony of everyone. Holy shit, that is a HEAVY indoctrination tool!!!!

There are actually hundreds of this phobic indoctrinations when I stepped back & looked. Hubbard knew how to keep people where he wanted them. And for anyone that breaks through those invisible chains they are labelled "enemy of the group".

Ever heard an EO or anyone say to someone who is in doubt about doing scientology "just think about your eternity before you go throwing it all away." This type of comment kicks the phobia back into play.

People can't leave the SO, the local org, the local mission, scientology, even when it's apparent that things are totally off-the-wall because they are too damn terrified to do so. It takes guts and a chink in the heavy indoctrination to find the door! For me, it has been one of the major invisible mind controlling chains I have had to deal with. It is very real to me that people cannot just walk away from scientology. They have the heavy weight of irrational phobias to deal with.

For further info on cult phobic mind control there is data on Steve Hassan's web site:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm

[paradox]

Reading what others have said, I should have said it's a mental prison as well as a physical prison. I was in before the security and cameras had gone way over the top.

But I do remember getting a meter check at flag from a security guy who had a gun on his belt. It felt very very weird, like, what if I get a dirty needle, you gonna shoot me?

Zander

Impressive, Zander. Sounds like they may have reissued/updated their one workable one-shot clear, magic bullet process, and he was fully prepared to assist with stable exteriorization. :keelover:

[Fancy]

I can tell you from my childhood abuse that feeling hardly ever goes away. Sometimes it becomes worse and then one becomes trapped even if one is out of it.

Barb


Flag 2005.

Read up some material on Domestic Violence, and read the WHYs that prevent an abused person from leaving.

The methods that keep people on staff, on public and in the SO are the perfect model of the psychological aspects of domestic violence.

SO members in particular really believe they are the planet's frontline defences, and that this is the biggest game they can "play". I remember a couple of high-ranking CLO staff who were being investigated from something, and they were facing expulsion and DECLARE. The one who told me, was devastated. "What am I going to do? Go back to making pottery for the local markets?"

It's the same as battered house-wife syndrome--"If he does this when he loves me, what he might do if I ran away could be worse." The fear of loss of a roof over your head, and protection of any children is what compels many women to put up with this, and SO members are in a similar situation. Many of them are disconnected from their families and the only roof over their head they can see is the underside of the triple bunk above them. These people are not readily equipped to get a "normal" job, Many of them couldn't even sell movie tickets without a proper Hat Write-up.

[Cat's Squirrel]

Hi Flag-2005,

Why can't anyone at any level of scientology just get up and leave? What's holding them back?

Phobias!

Members are indoctrinated to be phobic about leaving. They simply cannot imagine life without scientology. I couldn't. Even when the org is a madhouse, even when things are so utterly insane for the person, the thought of abandoning the group is too painful. Rational thinking is obliterated by the thought-stopping phobias which are instilled into scientologists very early in the game. (KSW1)

These phobias are instilled with various LRH refs & re-enforced member-to-member. Here are just a few:

From Clear to Eternity - don't waste this brief breath in eternity.

KSW 1 has many but this one will hold a person steadfast to scientology quite nicely: "The whole agonised future of this planet, every man, woman & child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depends on what you do here and now with and in scientology." Think about that one! If you leave the group you are somehow responsible for the agony of everyone. Holy shit, that is a HEAVY indoctrination tool!!!!

There are actually hundreds of this phobic indoctrinations when I stepped back & looked. Hubbard knew how to keep people where he wanted them. And for anyone that breaks through those invisible chains they are labelled "enemy of the group".

Ever heard an EO or anyone say to someone who is in doubt about doing scientology "just think about your eternity before you go throwing it all away." This type of comment kicks the phobia back into play.

People can't leave the SO, the local org, the local mission, scientology, even when it's apparent that things are totally off-the-wall because they are too damn terrified to do so. It takes guts and a chink in the heavy indoctrination to find the door! For me, it has been one of the major invisible mind controlling chains I have had to deal with. It is very real to me that people cannot just walk away from scientology. They have the heavy weight of irrational phobias to deal with.

For further info on cult phobic mind control there is data on Steve Hassan's web site:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm

Interesting. Also, most of their recruits are young people who haven't a lot of prior experience of the outer world - this is quickly apparent when you query the price of services etc.

[Cat's Squirrel]

Impressive, Zander. Sounds like they may have reissued/updated their one workable one-shot clear, magic bullet process, and he was fully prepared to assist with stable exteriorization. :keelover:

LOL Sounds like the infamous R2-45.

[XGO]

Another reason SO staff decide not to leave is MONEY. How can you buy an airticket (or bus ticket for that matter), when you have no coin? That was one of my worries when I blew.
I read somewhere on this site that SO members have left.
In one of the video/Youtube postings, the Ex SO member said SO staff have declined to about 4500 (was about 5500 when he joined... sorry I am not clear about the details, dates/time period).
Has anyone done a study on SO staff levels, and documented it? That would be an interesting graph to see.
Hey DM, if you improved the conditions for the staff, you would probably retain those people who are "on the fence." Think about it.

[Voltaire's Child]

This is something my husband and I have talked about many times. He's repeatedly told me that given certain situations we've heard about in the SO, that he'd just leave and not put up with it. Now, coming from John, I believe this. But let's look at others...

What if the person has family in CofS and maybe even in the SO with him or her? They are afraid of losing them, could get expelled then the family members would not be allowed to associate with them.

Plus there're all these other factors. Like was said earlier, one is told one would be a DB, one is told one won't be helping society, etc. Also if the person has nowhere to go or believes that they don't...

Some people really can get intimidated. I was at an IAS event where they had one guy so cowed, he was asking for permission to go to the restroom and do you think the IAS reg said "oh, dude, you don't have to ask me that..." No. She GRANTED the permission. He gave her that power over him but he probably did not see any other way to deal with the situation.

We were watching "most evil" cult leaders episode on Investigative Discovery channel last night. They had Manson's number 1 lady on there, Catherine Share. And she was talking about how she couldn't leave and this guy Clem was told by Manson to tell her what would happen if she did. My comment to John was "If it was me and I wanted to leave (and as soon as that asshole started talking about armageddon and race wars, I'd have been so out of there.") the next time the girls were sent to dumpster dive at Safeway or anyplace like that, I'd go in the store and they'd NEVER see me again."

But it's not the same for everybody. We all have a different psychological make up.

[Cat's Squirrel]

This is something my husband and I have talked about many times. He's repeatedly told me that given certain situations we've heard about in the SO, that he'd just leave and not put up with it. Now, coming from John, I believe this. But let's look at others...

What if the person has family in CofS and maybe even in the SO with him or her? They are afraid of losing them, could get expelled then the family members would not be allowed to associate with them.

Plus there're all these other factors. Like was said earlier, one is told one would be a DB, one is told one won't be helping society, etc. Also if the person has nowhere to go or believes that they don't...

Some people really can get intimidated. I was at an IAS event where they had one guy so cowed, he was asking for permission to go to the restroom and do you think the IAS reg said "oh, dude, you don't have to ask me that..." No. She GRANTED the permission. He gave her that power over him but he probably did not see any other way to deal with the situation.

We were watching "most evil" cult leaders episode on Investigative Discovery channel last night. They had Manson's number 1 lady on there, Catherine Share. And she was talking about how she couldn't leave and this guy Clem was told by Manson to tell her what would happen if she did. My comment to John was "If it was me and I wanted to leave (and as soon as that asshole started talking about armageddon and race wars, I'd have been so out of there.") the next time the girls were sent to dumpster dive at Safeway or anyplace like that, I'd go in the store and they'd NEVER see me again."

But it's not the same for everybody. We all have a different psychological make up.

That's right, and also the SO makes it as hard as it can for people to leave, as Pilot pointed out once.

[Zander]

Hi Flag-2005,

Why can't anyone at any level of scientology just get up and leave? What's holding them back?

Phobias!

Members are indoctrinated to be phobic about leaving. They simply cannot imagine life without scientology. I couldn't. Even when the org is a madhouse, even when things are so utterly insane for the person, the thought of abandoning the group is too painful. Rational thinking is obliterated by the thought-stopping phobias which are instilled into scientologists very early in the game. (KSW1)

These phobias are instilled with various LRH refs & re-enforced member-to-member. Here are just a few:

From Clear to Eternity - don't waste this brief breath in eternity.

KSW 1 has many but this one will hold a person steadfast to scientology quite nicely: "The whole agonised future of this planet, every man, woman & child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depends on what you do here and now with and in scientology." Think about that one! If you leave the group you are somehow responsible for the agony of everyone. Holy shit, that is a HEAVY indoctrination tool!!!!

There are actually hundreds of this phobic indoctrinations when I stepped back & looked. Hubbard knew how to keep people where he wanted them. And for anyone that breaks through those invisible chains they are labelled "enemy of the group".

Ever heard an EO or anyone say to someone who is in doubt about doing scientology "just think about your eternity before you go throwing it all away." This type of comment kicks the phobia back into play.

People can't leave the SO, the local org, the local mission, scientology, even when it's apparent that things are totally off-the-wall because they are too damn terrified to do so. It takes guts and a chink in the heavy indoctrination to find the door! For me, it has been one of the major invisible mind controlling chains I have had to deal with. It is very real to me that people cannot just walk away from scientology. They have the heavy weight of irrational phobias to deal with.

For further info on cult phobic mind control there is data on Steve Hassan's web site:

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm

That is so true sallydannce. I honestly thought I was going to die by not being onlines and I never wanted to give up that chance of 'going free'. Even after being off-lines for a long time I still thought just maybe I would go back, and let's not close any doors.

And then the threat of declare is a control mechanism to get people towing the line. But you just lose all individuality, freedom of thought and integrity that way.

Zander

[Zander]

Impressive, Zander. Sounds like they may have reissued/updated their one workable one-shot clear, magic bullet process, and he was fully prepared to assist with stable exteriorization. :keelover:

Interesting one :)

I must admit I was a bit nervous of him sitting there with that gun. And I think I really did imagine he might use it!

Zander

[sandygirl]

Why in God's name is a "church" having their staff armed????

How can this organization justify this crap???

Any trolls reading these threads???? How can you support this stuff????:confused2: :confused2:

[Grasshopper]

Why can't you just get up and leave? Here are a few reasons: (my case)

Physical:
- The int base has wire fence around, motion detectors, armed security guards. If you just walk out, you are being held back by force.
- If you tell them that you want to leave, they watch you and you are not allowed to leave the base (fences, guards).
- If you are not in your own country, you don't know anything about how to get to an airport, less about other transport (not many possibilities around the int base unless you have a car).
- If you are staff at int and you joined at a young age so you don't have savings from previous jobs, inharitance stc. you have no money to travel or settle.
- Your passport is confiscated.

Mental/emotional:
- When you arrive to the state of mind that you want to leave, you are f...uped mentally. It feels very insecure "out in the wog world".
- You made a promise when you joined and you have to face it now that you break it. That "'they" didn't keep their promises, is not an excuse.
- You wanted to save the world and believed in it, now you are into your own thing, you are being selfish.
- You have friends in there (though less and less due to the control-freaky report mechanism.
- You have spent 15-20 years in there - what will you do in the wog world, how will you survive?

Now, when you all battled it out in your head, you overcame the obstacles of all kind, then you just go, no matter where and how. You just LEAVE.
So, that' why. You can only escape by tricks, and count on your good luck.

[Boldgirl]

Why can't you just get up and leave? Here are a few reasons: (my case)

Physical:
- The int base has wire fence around, motion detectors, armed security guards. If you just walk out, you are being held back by force.
- If you tell them that you want to leave, they watch you and you are not allowed to leave the base (fences, guards).
- If you are not in your own country, you don't know anything about how to get to an airport, less about other transport (not many possibilities around the int base unless you have a car).
- If you are staff at int and you joined at a young age so you don't have savings from previous jobs, inharitance stc. you have no money to travel or settle.
- Your passport is confiscated.

Mental/emotional:
- When you arrive to the state of mind that you want to leave, you are f...uped mentally. It feels very insecure "out in the wog world".
- You made a promise when you joined and you have to face it now that you break it. That "'they" didn't keep their promises, is not an excuse.
- You wanted to save the world and believed in it, now you are into your own thing, you are being selfish.
- You have friends in there (though less and less due to the control-freaky report mechanism.
- You have spent 15-20 years in there - what will you do in the wog world, how will you survive?

Now, when you all battled it out in your head, you overcame the obstacles of all kind, then you just go, no matter where and how. You just LEAVE.
So, that' why. You can only escape by tricks, and count on your good luck.

God, I wish there was a real life Rambo. I feel so helpless. This is terrible. Enough of us exist to provide help and a 'leg up' once out of that horrible place...but how to get them out?

Rambo?????

[Grasshopper]

Well, I forgot to say that you do not have access to the Internet so you don't even know there are people who would help you when you are out. You don't know (I didn't) that there is such a thing as this board or OCMB or that there are so many critics. We are all indoctrinated that the SPs are bad, failing in life and vicious, you have no idea (while in) that these people are helpful, nice, understanding and caring. (...seems familiar... was I told that SO members are like this?...)

Of course there are other stories where someone just jumped in his/her car, went to a family member in another state and got a new life. Mine was not that easy.

Yes, I wish there was a Rambo-kind someone.

There is one more thing: I was really afraid of that if I get caught, I get taken back there, and probably many people think that. If they get caught, the torture is worse and you won't have another chance to leave very soon (you would be restricted). So you leave when you feel that you will not get caught, or when you are over the edge and nothing matters.

[uncle sam]

Before scn I never ever had nightmares or bad dreams. Once i departed- I started having nightmares and that was were I dreamt that I was back on staff. Terrible dreams. Much later and alot of seperation from the cos I'm finally over "dreaming that I've bNoween re-captured and put back on post."
Now in my dreams, I become a super hero and free all the sea org members form their enslavement.

[Div6]

God, I wish there was a real life Rambo. I feel so helpless. This is terrible. Enough of us exist to provide help and a 'leg up' once out of that horrible place...but how to get them out?

Rambo?????

This has been a topic of much discussion in a number of forums, exso, es-sci and anon. This has led to the creation of the exseaorg web site, and the Anons have started sending postcards into Hemet just to "get the flow going". The FBI visited there a whilr back earlier this year, and one person even got a cell phone in via package sent by a "big box" retailer.

Any and all ideas are welcome.

[paradox]

Why can't you just get up and leave? Here are a few reasons: (my case)

....


Dang, Grasshopper, with some adjustment of the wording you've just about summed up much of how it probably feels for many preparing to die a physical body death as well. Creepy. :)

I think it was Eckhart Tolle who said something like, "The secret of death is to die before you die." (i.e. ego death) Thinking about this in context, that was about how I felt when I was psyching myself up to leave the SO (pre-Internet); in many ways tantamount to facing the same or similar fears to dying. Interesting.

[FinallyMe]

Quoting:
"It's the same as battered house-wife syndrome--"If he does this when he loves me, what he might do if I ran away could be worse." The fear of loss of a roof over your head, and protection of any children is what compels many women to put up with this, and SO members are in a similar situation. Many of them are disconnected from their families and the only roof over their head they can see is the underside of the triple bunk above them. These people are not readily equipped to get a "normal" job, Many of them couldn't even sell movie tickets without a proper Hat Write-up."


Thank you for this - you are VERY correct, with the one addition that the battered housewife also feels that she has done something that provoked the attack, and "maybe if I would...." or "maybe if I wouldn't ......".


Patte Monaco

[Pixie]

Before scn I never ever had nightmares or bad dreams. Once i departed- I started having nightmares and that was were I dreamt that I was back on staff. Terrible dreams. Much later and alot of seperation from the cos I'm finally over "dreaming that I've bNoween re-captured and put back on post."
Now in my dreams, I become a super hero and free all the sea org members form their enslavement.

Good for you uncle sam!! :thumbsup: Uncle Sam... Super Hero!! :yes:

[Chipallina]

SO members so stupid? they can just leave!

This seems to be the big OUT-R for many people looking at our plight.

I only started to research and looking at anti-scio stuff three days ago, while having many years as staff in a Class V Org, then 3 years SO, and then three years hiding in a loss.

So I can only dwell on this issue but closing the gap in the deference in R would be helpful.

But I would summerize like this.

Scientology and especially the SO is not a place of peace or tranquility.

Many expect a religion to be that.

Scientology is a place of war and randomity and action and the largest danger to mankind is brought to light and fought.

Only a coward leaves the battlefield during a combat, leaving his friends, mum, dad or wife behind.

So being Declared is a nightmare for SO members. Their eternity has been taken and they are forced to desert their loved ones. And now their loved ones are living with a stigma due to their past relationship with you.

"why did you pull in an SP as a son?" is probably a common listing question given to SO members by other staff. If not in words then only in looks.

I wonder.....

Did the single fact of issuing so many SP declares bring down the show?

Would some of these top SO execs be outside if they were not Declared?

If David Mayo or others never left due to being thrown out would there be this current situation?

Perhaps David had planned Rons last days and even made them happen. You would have to cave your self in if thats true..

Declaring the Snr C/S I would have thought would end the show for him back then.

Maybe he did too..
He has been trying to do himself in for a long time...


How did you leave the SO? Didn't they have your passport?

[Voltaire's Child]

Theoretically, if they have your passport, you could go to a US embassy and ask for help. However, as previously pointed out, a lot of SO members don't have another place to go or money or their family's still in the cult or all those things. And when people are overwhelmed, mistreated,etc, it's hard to really think of options even if there are any- they could be very hard to ascertain.

[Flag-2005]

"How did you leave the SO? Didn't they have your passport?"

I was declared!

So they rush you out as soon as possible.

They wanted me out real bad.

With my brief history there and the amount of friends i had in my peers I was big trouble. My seniors hated me but not even RTC could handle me at that time. RTC were squirrels and I was writing it up.

I was also running around looking for World stats to prove how off tech and policy we all were. FSO staff numbers, route outs etc..

I remember one time I was brought onto the base for a brief moment ( I had no idea I was being declared at the time ) and the RTC reps saw me, there was a group of five and they all were shocked. I was not ment to be driven around by one of the MLO guys but I convinced him of an important medical cycle and I needed to get to the one-stop-shop for something.

The RTC reps nearly ran away! I knew they were the cause of my current situation as I was placed into a RTC project. Big mistake for them and in the end it was freedom for me.

Look the best thing to do if you are on staff at FSO is to say you want to kill yourself and that you have tried and will tonight try again! Many senior FSO staff got out that way!

You will get money, passport and a ride to the airport!

[Voltaire's Child]

I like your style!

[Chipallina]

LOL thats funny! :)

[Chipallina]

i went to roll call in the auditorium one day and instead of going back to post i jumped the back wall of the fort harrison got a cab to the hacienda to pick up some of my things (i couldnt escape at night as i had someone sit outside my room) then i called my Dad to come and 'retrieve' my passport from security!

i got a job on clearwater beach in a clothes shop and enjoyed the life i had missed for 6 months before returing home ;)

[quietheart]

I bet that was scary Chipallina, I'm so glad you made it. I'm one of the anons who would never question why people don't leave. I think I understand because of my own childhood and experiences as an adult. Personally, I feel it is a lot like battered women and children experience. I wish I could give all of you a great big hug. I'm glad people are speaking out, I truly hope this brings about change in our society.
Angl

[Lee_from_phx]

Authority is in the mind of the beholder.

The only thing stopping mournfully unhappy SO members (is there any other kind?) from walking out the door and never looking back is THEMSELVES.

Scientology is a trap, but it one that its victims have to play along with in order to be ensnared.

Probably the most fundamental trick that the cult pulls on someone that keeps them trapped is to convince them that they need the cult's permission to leave.

To those in the cult who wish to leave:

You don't need anyone's permission. Get up, put one foot in front of the other, and walk out the door.

If you're afraid that someone is going to physically attack you then call 911 and and tell them that you're being held against your will. When the police show up, walk right up to them and ask for help.

Don't let them beat you. Don't let them keep you as a slave.

[Chipallina]

i only blew because I was a coward and didnt want to be in the rpf, if i had been a good girl I'd probably still be there thats the strangest thing and thats why I'm not keen on anon targeting orgs and flag because that could be me! sad but true

[Voltaire's Child]

I don't think you're a coward. Just pragmatic and also brave.

I salute you, Chipallina!:rose: :rose:

[Chipallina]

thanks fluffs xxxyour a star :bighug:

[paradox]

i only blew because I was a coward and didnt want to be in the rpf, if i had been a good girl I'd probably still be there thats the strangest thing and thats why I'm not keen on anon targeting orgs and flag because that could be me! sad but true

:scared:Been there, done that. That's why I was content to remain outer org s.o. and steer clear of ever being permanently posted at pac or flag. It was an absolute no-brainer that I, too, would eventually end up there; I mean all s.o. roads lead eventually to the rpf or rpf's rpf . :target:My conscious mind was going, "coward, wimp, dilettante, phoney." My small, quiet, background voice (which I was not too attuned to in those years) was going, "WARNING! WARNING! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!" Fortunately, I eventually heeded the saner of the two and got the fruck outta Dodge!

(of course, it was during the dark of night :runaway:)

[gomorrhan]

[QUOTE=Flag-2005;103580]SO members so stupid? they can just leave!/QUOTE]

For the same reason so many battered housewives are so stupid.

[Chipallina]

nice one Paradox :)

[Boldgirl]

Because the people in have been indoctrinated into the "Lifton's Eight Criteria" that describes destructive mind control.

When I read these , it describes the scn completely and in this scenario it seems to take an outside influence to change their viewpoint.This pretty much says it all to me !

Lifton's Thought Reform Model
Adapted from Robert Jay Lifton's Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
(Norton, 1961: reprinted 1989 by the University of North Carolina Press)

Dr. Lifton's work was the outgrowth of his studies for military intelligence of Mao Tse-Tung's "thought-reform programs" commonly known as "brainwashing." In Chapter 22, Lifton outlines eight criteria for when any environment can be understood as exercising "thought-reform" or mind control. Lifton wrote that any group has some aspects of these points. However, if an environment has all eight of these points and implements them in the extreme, then there is unhealthy thought reform taking place.

1. Milieu Control

Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.

2. Mystical Manipulation

Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People misattribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.

3. Loading the Language

Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white-"thought-terminating clichés." Non-members cannot simply understand what believers are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.

4. Doctrine Over Person

No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.

5. The Sacred Science

The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.

6. The Cult of Confession

The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.

7. The Demand for Purity

The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. Creating an environment of guilt and shame. No matter how hard a person tries, he always falls short, feels badly, and works even harder.

8. The Dispensing of Existence
The belief that people in the group have the right to exist and all ex-members and critics or dissidents do not.There is no other legitimate alternative to the group. In political regimes, this permits state executions.

[sallydannce]

Good stuff BoldGirl. Thanks for posting. :)

[Boldgirl]

Good stuff BoldGirl. Thanks for posting. :)

thanks
I know too, that I have posted that lifton eight criteria in other threads but it just seemed to belong here too.....so sorry to all for the repeat post....

[ScudMuffin]

Scientology is the Panopticon of our time.

[Lucretia]

Lifton was smart!!!

To me the eight points are exactly right and verbalise what I have been trying to extract from poor mushy head for a while, not that I would ever have codified it with such clariy.

Is there something about the human condition which makes it probable that any, or even all, groups will evolve those control measures, even if those controls are not there in the first place. Scn is very prone, but so too are religions - in christianity's worst incarnation, the inquisitions (but even now the pope prevents the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden countries because god might see it as birth control - I can't begin to describe how disgusting I think that is, in fact I would have thought it was disgusting while I was in Scio - interesting how I could see insane control in other groups but not in my own) but there are obviously others which are equally bad, then there are masonic lodges, trekies, footie teams etc etc...., any group really which polaries people into us and them. Then, the more essential the group is percieved to be, the more intensely the controls are applied.

One of the things which enchanted me about scn initially was the - oh I don't know yoda-ness(?) of the old timers - wise, serene, ability to grant huge amounts of beingness to a wog such as me - it was a total freedom to walk into the org. But they were brief halcyon days and they haven't lasted and maybe they could never last because humans just can't accept people who aren't part of their own way of thinking. There is a need to demonise others while making sure the faithfull don't get out of line. So you get the secret language, the guilt trips, the ends justifiying the means, the dangerous outsiders etc.

This is a muddle, - I have never been much good at explaining myself. Does anyone have any thoughts?

[Flag-2005]

I admit that I could not have just left.

I could not just walk out on my wife, friends and my commitment.

Also I didnt want to feel stupid and admit I was wrong and had been conned.

I had to be kicked out and so I worked towards that!

[Zinjifar]

Freudian yet true!

Zinj

[Lucretia]

I can feel a big thought coming on:

To my mind, the thing that binds each of the groups together is the agreement that the activity/intention/goal etc is worthwhile, and the more worthwhile the activity/intention/goal, the harder the agreement is to disavow.

My agreement with scn was that the tech was the way out. I had disagreements with pretty much everything else but I put up with all of that because of my initial very strong agreement and I guess, desire for the agreement to be true. When I discovered, to my infinite relief, that the tech was not the way out, then the rest dissolved into thin air. There was nothing to stay for so mentally I was right out. Getting out physicaly is more difficult. Maybe this is very simplistic. A person can usually see the bad stuff but if underlying it all, there is some agreement that is still intact and has not been shattered by the bad stuff, then that person is going to stay, come what may. I don't think SO are stupid, they are just trapped as I was. We were all trapped to a greater or lesser degree, whether we were in the SO or not. The solution is to expose the lie and/or lies (because it occures to me that there could be more than one agreement binding a person to a group), whatever the lie might be. Or is all of this just huge load of old cobblers and it only applies to my particular situation?

[Cat's Squirrel]

Lifton was smart!!!

To me the eight points are exactly right and verbalise what I have been trying to extract from poor mushy head for a while, not that I would ever have codified it with such clariy.

Is there something about the human condition which makes it probable that any, or even all, groups will evolve those control measures, even if those controls are not there in the first place. Scn is very prone, but so too are religions - in christianity's worst incarnation, the inquisitions (but even now the pope prevents the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden countries because god might see it as birth control - I can't begin to describe how disgusting I think that is, in fact I would have thought it was disgusting while I was in Scio - interesting how I could see insane control in other groups but not in my own) but there are obviously others which are equally bad, then there are masonic lodges, trekies, footie teams etc etc...., any group really which polaries people into us and them. Then, the more essential the group is percieved to be, the more intensely the controls are applied.

One of the things which enchanted me about scn initially was the - oh I don't know yoda-ness(?) of the old timers - wise, serene, ability to grant huge amounts of beingness to a wog such as me - it was a total freedom to walk into the org. But they were brief halcyon days and they haven't lasted and maybe they could never last because humans just can't accept people who aren't part of their own way of thinking. There is a need to demonise others while making sure the faithfull don't get out of line. So you get the secret language, the guilt trips, the ends justifiying the means, the dangerous outsiders etc.

This is a muddle, - I have never been much good at explaining myself. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Yeah, that was a great post. :) Looking back on it, it was the old timers who kept me in the subject as well; those who cut their teeth on Scn in the days when you were not only allowed but encouraged to think with the subject rather than just parroting it.

P.S. Your username just reminded me of a Megadeth track with a killer riff;

http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/lucretia.html

[Lucretia]

Thanks CS, and re Megadeath - cool. Lucretia was good at that sort of thing - death that is.

[Ladybird]

Culties aren't too stupid to leave...they are too brainwashed!

http://forums.enturbulation.org/avatars/flynn-13372.gif

[Boldgirl]

I can feel a big thought coming on:

My agreement with scn was that the tech was the way out. I had disagreements with pretty much everything else but I put up with all of that because of my initial very strong agreement and I guess, desire for the agreement to be true. When I discovered, to my infinite relief, that the tech was not the way out, then the rest dissolved into thin air. There was nothing to stay for so mentally I was right out. Getting out physicaly is more difficult. Maybe this is very simplistic. A person can usually see the bad stuff but if underlying it all, there is some agreement that is still intact and has not been shattered by the bad stuff, then that person is going to stay, come what may.

I agree wholeheartedly with this and I had the same thoughts. I had so many disagreements that I kept to myself but it was that promise of the tech to 'free me' that hooked me. Now that I look back-I am like free from what?

[Boldgirl]

I admit that I could not have just left.

I could not just walk out on my wife, friends and my commitment.

Also I didnt want to feel stupid and admit I was wrong and had been conned.

I had to be kicked out and so I worked towards that!


Honestly, in that situation, as with many others that have written with similiar circumstances to you, I definitely think it was so much harder than what I went through. I cant really imagine the strength you all had to have to be out with family disconnection and the suppression of being in the SO--to me you all are the strong ones. I had it easy by comparison.

[Flag-2005]

Of course no one wants to 'miss out' on the bridge to total freedom..

Of course no one wants to come out and say they were had for a million bucks.

The embarrasement in what you beleive keeps it to yourself.

Of course noone wants to be harrased and litigated. Not to mention libel/slander against you. etc etc

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Of course no one wants to 'miss out' on the bridge to total freedom..

Of course no one wants to come out and say they were had for a million bucks.

The embarrasement in what you beleive keeps it to yourself.

Of course noone wants to be harrased and litigated. Not to mention libel/slander against you. etc etc

There is also Stockholmes Syndrome where the victim has come to identify with the aggressor.

[degraded being]

Had finished my 5 year contract (local org, not sea org). I think I had done a 2+half year contract before that. Anyhow they refused to see that although lron says you have to replace yrself when you leave post it cannot apply legally to the end of your contract because the contract which subjects you to that specific policy is no longer applicable!

I could see that Mr Dir. Com -or whatever, was a brick wall. I had a think and then I had a big, fat, juicy Cog-fucking-nition!!!:dancer: :dancer: :dancer: :dance3: :dance3:
THEY had to want me to leave.

But...how to achieve it. Well I took the advice from all the popular new age
books that I hadn't even read yet. I just "was able to have" my coggy woggy
and wait until the answer appeared about how to get it done. Anyhow I continued doing my duites but no extras and made no effort to look enthusiastic or uptone or happy about it.
After about 3 or 4 weeks a mission arrived from the cont. sea org base and on their first day their boss man came up to me and said: "You don't want to be here do you?" All purposeful and no nonsense-like. I said: "No" he said: "Alright, get out then" Oooooh he was sooooo sexy I wanted to stay another 5 years!! But I left; with no declare, or freeloaders bill or nuff'n.
If you have looked at TROM, I think it was a very tromish kind of win. (Maybe even level 5 WOW!!!)

[Cat's Squirrel]

Had finished my 5 year contract (local org, not sea org). I think I had done a 2+half year contract before that. Anyhow they refused to see that although lron says you have to replace yrself when you leave post it cannot apply legally to the end of your contract because the contract which subjects you to that specific policy is no longer applicable!

I could see that Mr Dir. Com -or whatever, was a brick wall. I had a think and then I had a big, fat, juicy Cog-fucking-nition!!!:dancer: :dancer: :dancer: :dance3: :dance3:
THEY had to want me to leave.

But...how to achieve it. Well I took the advice from all the popular new age
books that I hadn't even read yet. I just "was able to have" my coggy woggy
and wait until the answer appeared about how to get it done. Anyhow I continued doing my duites but no extras and made no effort to look enthusiastic or uptone or happy about it.
After about 3 or 4 weeks a mission arrived from the cont. sea org base and on their first day their boss man came up to me and said: "You don't want to be here do you?" All purposeful and no nonsense-like. I said: "No" he said: "Alright, get out then" Oooooh he was sooooo sexy I wanted to stay another 5 years!! But I left; with no declare, or freeloaders bill or nuff'n.
If you have looked at TROM, I think it was a very tromish kind of win. (Maybe even level 5 WOW!!!)

Well done! That strikes me as a BIG win.:happydance:

[thetanic]

I had to be kicked out and so I worked towards that!

Some of us did that and found that the people around us weren't as OT as we'd have liked -- and that we weren't kicked out.

[GreyLensman]

Reading what others have said, I should have said it's a mental prison as well as a physical prison. I was in before the security and cameras had gone way over the top.

But I do remember getting a meter check at flag from a security guy who had a gun on his belt. It felt very very weird, like, what if I get a dirty needle, you gonna shoot me?

Zander

Of course not, just wing you...

[espiritumcmaster]

See my post of May 2, 2008: "The St. Hill Syndrome" which I claim parallels, and is even more sinister than "The Stockholm Syndrome." (292 hits to date) It took me more than a decade to disconnect (sneak away is more to the truth) and I wasn't even in the Sea Org!
I've maintained friends in high places who have no idea how I loath everything that is this evil cult. I kept these friends so as to continue research on how Hubbard pulled off one of the greatest cash-cons of the 20th Century. To define LRH it is necessary to redefine the meaning of Megalomania.

[loveya1]

Hello. I was in the Sea Org recently. and I left. I was in one of the highest Orgs they have.
And you are totally right. Being a Sea Org member, you are TOTALLY scared out of your wits to leave. I was so afraid of leaving, when finally I used a leave of absence to just stay gone.
that in itself was the most stressful thing I have ever done.

To anyone who wants to know what Organization I was in, well, lets just say I was one of the people making money from donations.

I will tell more of my story later.

Thanks, Love ya1
:duh:

[Cat's Squirrel]

Hi, and welcome!

[Flag-2005]

Hello. I was in the Sea Org recently. and I left. I was in one of the highest Orgs they have.
And you are totally right. Being a Sea Org member, you are TOTALLY scared out of your wits to leave. I was so afraid of leaving, when finally I used a leave of absence to just stay gone.
that in itself was the most stressful thing I have ever done.

To anyone who wants to know what Organization I was in, well, lets just say I was one of the people making money from donations.

I will tell more of my story later.

Thanks, Love ya1
:duh:


Hi and thanks for posting.

So I guess you were a FSO, Superpower or IAS reg?

Its very liberating to be out and get in contact with others, so welcome and have fun.

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Hello. I was in the Sea Org recently. and I left. I was in one of the highest Orgs they have.
And you are totally right. Being a Sea Org member, you are TOTALLY scared out of your wits to leave. I was so afraid of leaving, when finally I used a leave of absence to just stay gone.
that in itself was the most stressful thing I have ever done.

To anyone who wants to know what Organization I was in, well, lets just say I was one of the people making money from donations.

I will tell more of my story later.

Thanks, Love ya1
:duh:

Dear Love ya1 - Love ya2! :yes:

There is no way, really, to adequately acknowledge you for having the initiative to get out. But many others here, and I (to a certain extent) have personal reality on what you experienced. So I will just add a note of insouciance in the true spirit of play and indicate that, in my humble opinion, you achieved the EP of OT - and why dontcha TAKE A WIN!

love,

Roy, the EP's EP

[apple]

Went to Flag after being inactive for a few years. Had some auditing from some top class auditor. It was not fun. Had more fun co-auditing years befor. Went to the examiner,I forget if he ran a list or whatever, anyways it was pointed out that I was clear. Never even did the levels. I wanted out of this place so I put on my bright smile and shiney eyes GIs. With a bit of a confused look in the examiners eyes he said your needle is floating. So I was declared Clear and I totally cleared out of there as soon as the next plane came in. Never went back, only contacted them to get the rest of my advanced payment back. Oh the final straw was, I met an OT public while I was there got to know her, corresponded for a short time after, she really disappointed me. She did me a service, I thought if this an OT its nothing special to work toward, so rude, let me out of here. That was the last nail in the coffin of Scn. thank god. Never went back and thanks to this site and other anti-scn info, I have worked to get its pull off me. Dont want to go back, dont want to even give them one soiled cent from the bottom of a septic tank. I will steer people I know who are and have been in contact with Scn. to sites like this, just as a topic of interest, no pressure. I look at some of the people that have been in for a very long time and spent much money in it, and some with their life, I thank myself for just being involved for maybe 5 years off and on, it could have been much worse. I thank the person who started this site.

[Pixie]

Hello. I was in the Sea Org recently. and I left. I was in one of the highest Orgs they have.
And you are totally right. Being a Sea Org member, you are TOTALLY scared out of your wits to leave. I was so afraid of leaving, when finally I used a leave of absence to just stay gone.
that in itself was the most stressful thing I have ever done.

To anyone who wants to know what Organization I was in, well, lets just say I was one of the people making money from donations.

I will tell more of my story later.

Thanks, Love ya1
:duh:

Welcome, and well done for escaping the hell hole, that took bravery. Look forward to reading your story. :thumbsup:

[Tim Skog]

This is one of the most interesting threads I've come across. I'm not exactly sure how I missed this one.

All the posts on this topic have been well written and though provoking. Obviously it is not easy for most members to just up and leave the Sea Org.

I've mentioned my having left in previous posts, but I never really thought about what difficulty there might have been in my leaving. I had only been in the SO for a little over two years. I had been in the GO and posted at a class IV Org for 5 years prior to joining the SO. When I signed the billion year contract I remember thinking at the time that it was a gesture of sorts and not to be taken literally. Later, I learned it was taken a bit more seriously than that by most other Sea Org members.

My "problem" was that I never really fit in with the life of being an SO member. I didn't care for the sacrificing that I saw. I didn't completely buy into the idea of subjugating my personal needs to those of the group. I always felt like an outsider and I remember feeling guilty about being in the SO and not feeling as dedicated as everyone else.

My thinking was that if I stuck with it long enough eventually I would "get it" and become dedicated like everyone else. However after time it just got to be more and more of a losing experience. I felt like my life had been wasted and, I just grew disillusioned with the whole idea about saving the planet.

I remember the very morning when I left. I had awakened very early and just got up and thought (very impulsively) why not just leave. I looked back at my wife still sleeping in bed. I remember thinking how bad our 2D was and that I couldn't talk to her. I didn't want to stay married and, if I had stayed in we would have ended up divorcing anyway. I couldn't tell her about leaving because, she'd have blown the whistle on me and I knew she was never going to leave.

This all occurred in a nano-second. It was just a moment of clarity that hit me. I COULD JUST WALK OUT THE DOOR AND GO AWAY. So I did. I dressed and packed one small carry-all bag with a change of clothes and with just a small amount of cash in my pockets I walked out of the big blue building in Hollywood.

I remember thinking as I was walking away that if I ever wanted to go back that I could deal with whatever I had to deal with but that right now I just needed to get the hell away.

Sometime later, after I had been out of Scn for a number of months I remember thinking, even if I didn't go back this lifetime, I could always go back next lifetime and deal with my A-E or whatever the hell I'd run into on a meter check.

But I never really wanted to go back and I made a point to fit in with the real world and get with the old program. It takes time. For me it took 20 years before, I finally realized that the life of being in the SO and that game was an evil trap and a slave camp. It took the internet to learn about how evil the game of being in the SO was.

It isn't easy to leave and when you do there is still a lot of work to be done to get the old head back on right. In fact, getting the old head on right is really a never ending process and this board has been a valuable part of that undertaking.

So, yes, leaving can be easy, but then when are you ever really out?:unsure:

[scooter]

To answer the last question you posed, Tim.

Everytime I ask myself "How did I ever stoop so low as to do/tolerate... when I was "in?"

I know then that I'm forever separated from that mindfuck that is the Co$

And I'll never be "in" again! :happydance:

[Free to shine]

To answer the last question you posed, Tim.

Everytime I ask myself "How did I ever stoop so low as to do/tolerate... when I was "in?"

I know then that I'm forever separated from that mindfuck that is the Co$

And I'll never be "in" again! :happydance:

Amen! :yes: