Current CofS vs Hubbard's CofS

[asagai]

I am an ex from Hubbard's days of running the church and when newer exes come out saying DM is the cause of the "bad" things about the church I always try to remind them of the LRH tech and policy that is the genus of DM's batty actions.

Nevertheless I have generally held the opinion that the abuses do seem to have got worse during DM's reign, despite Hubbard's overboarding, imprisonments, and his operations "Snow White" and "Freakout", etc.

A few days ago I heard an account, which while minor, compared to many abusive practices then and now, was nevertheless quite shocking to me.

Just after I had joined Scn in the late 60's, my sister visited the org to see me. She wasn't anti-scn and had actually been instrumental in helping me find out about the subject. She was pretty open-minded about it.

She walked into the org and said she'd come to see her brother. Div 6 asked her to do a personality test, which she didn't mind doing then she asked to see me and they said the test just needed to be marked first. She was given an eval and told communication was her ruin. She asked to see me and the reg she had to sign up for the communication course first.

She was heavy regged for several hours and told that before she could see me she had to show commitment to Scn and sign up for £200 worth of services - a lot of money back then. She was prevented from seeing me every time she asked.

Eventually, in order to see me she compromised and agreed to think about it overnight and would let them know the next day and they finally agreed to let her see me because that was showing some degree of commitment.

They let her see me and next day she phoned up the Org and said she wouldn't be doing the courses.

To her great credit, she never told me about the duress she had been put under in order to see me. I was so enthusiastic about Scn, that she didn't want to deflate me! In fact she has only told me nearly forty years later!!! :melodramatic:

A minor story compared to many, but I found it quite shocking to think that Div 6 did such dirty tricks way back then and people who I thought were my friends would put a member of my family under such stress.

If I heard such stories from these DM days, I wouldn't be surprised, but I am genuinely surprised that such a thing was done back then in a relatively outer org, far away from Ron's bully activities on the Flagship.

So this has set me wondering again as the whether DM's church is more abusive and morally corrupt than Ron's church was.

Anyone else got any then stories and now stories, so we can compare the two churches?

[Dulloldfart]

I remember life in the SO was more FUN in the 70s than in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean it was more fun all the time, but the fun times seemed to happen more often then.

Especially before the 2D Rules FO was issued. :)

Paul

[Free to shine]

Anyone else got any then stories and now stories, so we can compare the two churches?

Well for one thing, I call neither a "church". That angle has only been invented and pushed for the obvious reasons.

IMO nothing has changed, except the "show me the money" has become a whole lot worse.

[Escalus]

I want to somewhat echo Fart... er... you know what I mean.

For all the stupidity of it we did have fun with it in the 70s. In a college town when you told people you were a Scientologist, you might have found it easier to get laid. Now people will just hand you deodorant and a toothbrush...

[lkwdblds]

I remember life in the SO was more FUN in the 70s than in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean it was more fun all the time, but the fun times seemed to happen more often then.

Especially before the 2D Rules FO was issued. :)

Paul

We had a saying in the CCLA of the early 70's that "if it wasn't fun, it wasn't Scientology." Another commonly quoted line, also promoted by Yvonne Jentzch was that "Seriousness equals Mass.". Also, "Scientology is the only game in the Universe where everyone wins."

Another thing which I actually experienced in 1978 which is very tangible and very very different than the Church under DM is that I received L11 from auditor Alex Sibersky in 1977. I was satisfied with the level and thought Siberski was a great auditor. Nevertheless in 1978, I received a call from the registrar, David Light, telling me that Siberski had been declared suppressive and all his pc's were being called back to redo the services he delivered. The difference between 1978 and the DM regime? I was not charged for redoing L11 with a different auditor, the Flag Land Base comped me and delivered it for free!
Lkwdblds

[Veda]

It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.

[lionheart]

Excellent, accurate write-up, Veda! :thumbsup:

In those days one could lurk on the outer fringes at Missions and Orgs and sort of ignore the GO black ops that one heard of (we heard of them partly because we were on the fringes and more in touch with the "wog" world press and also because scientology tongues tended to loosen in the outer orgs and missions). We could also more safely ignore Hubbard's more vicious policies.

If one found oneself being drawn in towards the crazy centre of Scn one could withdraw again to the calmer waters of the Missions. Personally I had observed that the closer you got to Ron the battier the ogranisational behaviour became.

Some of us enhanced the "fun" side of scientology and it was genuinely exciting and wonderful. We believed, foolishly, that one day all of the scn world would be as much fun. How very wrong we were! :duh:

[lkwdblds]

It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

Yes, Veda, oh so true. We had Rocky Stump, a Class XII make several speeches, I believe Sibersky, Class XII visited and spoke at ASHO and Ron Shafran (Shaffy), Class XII, became senior C/S at CCLA replacing a non Sea Org Class XIII named Don Keeler. The only guy who did not have the dedicated glare was Bob Harvey who came out to put in the ESTO system into PAC area orgs management structure. Bob had a spirit of play and a twinkle in his eye and made everything fun. After 3 weeks or so of doing his mission, he was removed without any explanation and I believe he was never heard from again.

Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

Yes, the Guardian's Office Rep showed up, the Flag Rep network was started, the LRH Comm network was started, the FBO network was already in place. The G.O. definitely had the most muscle but all the networks were extremely hostile to normal org staff, looking down on us as peons and all these networks were fighting each other for power to boss everyone around. At CCLA they were aware of each other more than just dimly. They all ate together at the exec dining table with Yvonne and the other Org execs. The Commanding Officer, Yvonne Jentzch, who founded CCLA in 1969 and ruled single handidly though around 1971 suddenly found about 5 Flag people permanently posted at her Org who outranked her. She became very upset by this.

While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

Yes, I was transfered to the Apollo in 1973 and was treated as a piece of garbage the moment I arrived at the airport in Lisbon. I was hated and reviled completely and totally during the short time I was there.

Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

That may be why I was given L11 over for free in 1978. Very interesting!

When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.

This last bit about LRH masterminding the looting and destruction of the Missions is generally not fully understood. It is somewhat new to me. If this is the way DM came to power, it explains almost everything as to why the C of S is the way it is today. Veda, your historical insights are extremely interesting and really appreciated. I hope you keep them coming!
Lkwdblds

[LA SCN]

It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.

GREAT POST!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Blue Spirit]

It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.

Lots of reality above.

Just think of the reasonableness exercised

to stay on "The Only Road to Total Freedom" ?

[Blue Spirit]

Excellent, accurate write-up, Veda! :thumbsup:

In those days one could lurk on the outer fringes at Missions and Orgs and sort of ignore the GO black ops that one heard of (we heard of them partly because we were on the fringes and more in touch with the "wog" world press and also because scientology tongues tended to loosen in the outer orgs and missions). We could also more safely ignore Hubbard's more vicious policies.

If one found oneself being drawn in towards the crazy centre of Scn one could withdraw again to the calmer waters of the Missions. Personally I had observed that the closer you got to Ron the battier the ogranisational behaviour became.

Some of us enhanced the "fun" side of scientology and it was genuinely exciting and wonderful. We believed, foolishly, that one day all of the scn world would be as much fun. How very wrong we were! :duh:

Ain't that the sad truth ! :grouch:

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

When you break it down to the basics the final result has always been the same "a scam". If I had to pick between the two evils I would pick the current version under Miscavige over Hubbard's version in a heartbeat. Miscavige wants to get you through the scam and clean out your bank account as soon as possible, he's not interested in having you hang out once you are flat broke, he'll declared you and allow you to get back to freedom, where as Hubbard wanted to create slave to worship him for life, Scientology under Hubbard was a life sentence.

[everfree]

It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.

Awesome. I think I just found my signature line.

[Type4_PTS]

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology.

Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole new level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.

[Terril park]

Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole to level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.

I'd like to know more about this also.

I gather that Hubbard considered the first mission conference a mutiny,
and was thus happy to see them suppressed.

Did he know their stats? Or did DM hide them?

[lkwdblds]

Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole to level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.

Veda is very sharp in this historical area but Type 4 PTS makes a very good point. I'd like to know how Veda obtained his knowledge of early Sea Org history in general and what his specific responses would be to Type 4's questions. Before reading Veda's post on this thread, I always believed the mission holders conference was DM's and not LRH's doing.
Lkwdblds

[Veda]

-snip-

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.


Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole new level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.

That's the current Marty Rathbun shore story. The oldest shore story was that Hubbard had left his body and was on the mothership and was no longer operating his body in 1982 (some other subordinate thetan having taken over), then the "Hubbard was in a coma in 1982" story became popular. Now, the latest is that Hubbard had his "communication lines cut," etc. Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?

The idea that it wasn't primarily "accumulated by-passed charge on his case," etc., or Marcabian attack-thought-beams, or even the diabolical 21 year old David Miscavige, but that Hubbard had had a hidden agenda since day one and was concentrating on pursuing that hidden agenda or, as he worded it shortly after having written 'Excalibur' in 1938, his "real goal," is - for some - not on the list of possibilities considered. May I suggest that - for those few hold outs - that they add it to the list of possibilities.

There is so much information, and much of it has been known for so long, and has become so easily accessible via the Internet, that it's difficult to know where to begin when old news is regarded as new news.

"DM" did start from where Hubbard left off - that's the horrible truth of it.

However, don't take my word for it. It's up to the individual to examine this information and connect the dots himself.

Martin Samuels was the founder of the Delphi school in Oregon and a Mission Holder. His comments re. Hubbard, Miscavige, Missions, etc., can be found in the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?'. Mission Holder and Class 8, FEBC, Bent Corydon, addresses the area in four chapters in that book, 'The Savior Lives Just Down the Road!', 'A Reform Movement is Derailed', 'Hubbard's Billion Dollar Caper', and 'The Savior's Revenge'.

That's a beginning - and this information was known over twenty years ago, before the various shore stories, for some, overtook reality.

There's a lot of information to examine - This is some of it:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=290382&postcount=19

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=19183&postcount=1

David Mayo 1986 interview. Suggest reading 'Tape 3', or doing a 'find' on 'insatiable lust for money and power':

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwmsBLvcr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

[lkwdblds]

Veda - Thanks for your last post and for listing some of your sources of information. I had not read "Messiah or Madman?" The exerpt on the six layers of the "onion" of Scientology is fantastic! It really helps in sorting out all the various things that happen to one througout a typical long career, spanning decades, in C of S. Things which seem implausible and impossible to explain are revealed to be commonplace occurances that are programmed to occur on a certain time table and happen to everyone who stays involved.

I see that I had just completed Level 1 and was thrown suddenly into joining the Sea Org on a skipped gradient. This explains what happened to me on the Apollo and how I was treated. I was missing my indoctrination in Levels 2 and 3 when I arrived and hence could not make the adjustment to life aboard the ship.

I also expeienced the super big crush reg cycle many years later where I was quadruple teamed by 3 OT registrars showing up unannounced at my house one night plus their getting Fred Schwartz on the phone to reg me as well and spending about 6 hours at a restaurant with me until the restaurant closed. My wife was caring for our newborn daughter only one week old so it was me against 4 OT sharks and I signed for a huge package which ultimately led to a bankruptcy, loss of my house in foreclosure and the wrecking of my marriage. This incredible event is actually SOP for someone at my level of indoctrination at that time.

Each time so far, when I feel I have read all I could read on the subject of Scientology and begin to decide that there is nothing more to find out and am contemplating moving on to other major interests in life, something new (to me) and major pops up which fills in major gaps in my understanding.
Thanks again for posting this stuff.

[FreeBeing]

Well for one thing, I call neither a "church". That angle has only been invented and pushed for the obvious reasons.

IMO nothing has changed, except the "show me the money" has become a whole lot worse.

I agree with you Free. It doesn't matter which person is at the top, LRH or DM.

[everfree]

Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?

I thought it was to avoid the IRS from finding out that he was indeed running the church while maintaining the pretense that he resigned executive duties in 1966. Miscavige runs a similar scam today.

I seem to remember that there was also a big evolution to destroy all of Hubbard's "advices" and other evidence of his actual management.

[Veda]

I thought it was to avoid the IRS from finding out that he was indeed running the church while maintaining the pretense that he resigned executive duties in 1966. Miscavige runs a similar scam today.

I seem to remember that there was also a big evolution to destroy all of Hubbard's "advices" and other evidence of his actual management.

Of course.:) Hubbard was applying his own tech, per his 'Bolivar' Policy Letter, "Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies." http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=122173&postcount=16 The Mafia has a similar policy, and it sounds "strategic," but it's the strategy of a criminal, a thug and a coward.

There was nothing preventing Hubbard from communicating directly to the Mission Holders other than his fear of being held accountable for his actions. It was acceptable to Hubbard that his wife be brought before a judge, and eventually sent to prison, but he would not be standing by her side - instead he would be in hiding, denying everything, and even writing a "Common Sense Moral Code" to be distributed to the "wogs" to "prove" what a moral fellow he was.

It's noteworthy that another cult leader, Sun Myung Moon, some years later, was found guilty of tax fraud and served time in a federal correction facility as result. He took the rap, came out, and continued as the leader of his cult. Last time I looked, the 'Moonies' were as established as ever, and at age 89, Moon was still the leader.

Hubbard chose to be a coward, and sent his front groups and PR people into high gear to cover up his disgusting behavior.

As for Hubbard's 'advices', Scientologists can rest easy, only copies were destroyed, originals were preserved. LRH tech lives on, parts of it simply became more covert. That's a pattern - Scientology does not reform, it becomes sneakier - and perhaps, eventually, with a new "Chairman of the Board" replacing the current one, Scientology will become more subtle, slicker, and "friendlier," and the cult-machine will return to running at full capacity. No doubt some will be delighted.

[Veda]

Veda - Thanks for your last post and for listing some of your sources of information. I had not read "Messiah or Madman?" The excerpt on the six layers of the "onion" of Scientology is fantastic! It really helps in sorting out all the various things that happen to one throughout a typical long career, spanning decades, in C of S. Things which seem implausible and impossible to explain are revealed to be commonplace occurrences that are programmed to occur on a certain time table and happen to everyone who stays involved.

I see that I had just completed Level 1 and was thrown suddenly into joining the Sea Org on a skipped gradient. This explains what happened to me on the Apollo and how I was treated. I was missing my indoctrination in Levels 2 and 3 when I arrived and hence could not make the adjustment to life aboard the ship.

I also experienced the super big crush reg cycle many years later where I was quadruple teamed by 3 OT registrars showing up unannounced at my house one night plus their getting Fred Schwartz on the phone to reg me as well and spending about 6 hours at a restaurant with me until the restaurant closed. My wife was caring for our newborn daughter only one week old so it was me against 4 OT sharks and I signed for a huge package which ultimately led to a bankruptcy, loss of my house in foreclosure and the wrecking of my marriage. This incredible event is actually SOP for someone at my level of indoctrination at that time.

Each time so far, when I feel I have read all I could read on the subject of Scientology and begin to decide that there is nothing more to find out and am contemplating moving on to other major interests in life, something new (to me) and major pops up which fills in major gaps in my understanding.
Thanks again for posting this stuff.

Yes, it's a strange subject.

Scientology, as a "movement," requires a publicized, (seemingly) benign, spacious, and robust mental-healing component (Level or "Layer One"). That's missing these days, and the people-exploiting cult-machine won't run at full efficiency without it.

[lionheart]

That's the current Marty Rathbun shore story. The oldest shore story was that Hubbard had left his body and was on the mothership and was no longer operating his body in 1982 (some other subordinate thetan having taken over), then the "Hubbard was in a coma in 1982" story became popular. Now, the latest is that Hubbard had his "communication lines cut," etc. Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?

The idea that it wasn't primarily "accumulated by-passed charge on his case," etc., or Marcabian attack-thought-beams, or even the diabolical 21 year old David Miscavige, but that Hubbard had had a hidden agenda since day one and was concentrating on pursuing that hidden agenda or, as he worded it shortly after having written 'Excalibur' in 1938, his "real goal," is - for some - not on the list of possibilities considered. May I suggest that - for those few hold outs - that they add it to the list of possibilities.

There is so much information, and much of it has been known for so long, and has become so easily accessible via the Internet, that it's difficult to know where to begin when old news is regarded as new news.

"DM" did start from where Hubbard left off - that's the horrible truth of it.

However, don't take my word for it. It's up to the individual to examine this information and connect the dots himself.

Martin Samuels was the founder of the Delphi school in Oregon and a Mission Holder. His comments re. Hubbard, Miscavige, Missions, etc., can be found in the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?'. Mission Holder and Class 8, FEBC, Bent Corydon, addresses the area in four chapters in that book, 'The Savior Lives Just Down the Road!', 'A Reform Movement is Derailed', 'Hubbard's Billion Dollar Caper', and 'The Savior's Revenge'.

That's a beginning - and this information was known over twenty years ago, before the various shore stories, for some, overtook reality.

There's a lot of information to examine - This is some of it:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=290382&postcount=19

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=19183&postcount=1

David Mayo 1986 interview. Suggest reading 'Tape 3', or doing a 'find' on 'insatiable lust for money and power':

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwmsBLvcr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516


Of course.:) Hubbard was applying his own tech, per his 'Bolivar' Policy Letter, "Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies." http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=122173&postcount=16 The Mafia has a similar policy, and it sounds "strategic," but it's the strategy of a criminal, a thug and a coward.

There was nothing preventing Hubbard from communicating directly to the Mission Holders other than his fear of being held accountable for his actions. It was acceptable to Hubbard that his wife be brought before a judge, and eventually sent to prison, but he would not be standing by her side - instead he would be in hiding, denying everything, and even writing a "Common Sense Moral Code" to be distributed to the "wogs" to "prove" what a moral fellow he was.

It's noteworthy that another cult leader, Sun Myung Moon, some years later, was found guilty of tax fraud and served time in a federal correction facility as result. He took the rap, came out, and continued as the leader of his cult. Last time I looked, the 'Moonies' were as established as ever, and at age 89, Moon was still the leader.

Hubbard chose to be a coward, and sent his front groups and PR people into high gear to cover up his disgusting behavior.

As for Hubbard's 'advices', Scientologists can rest easy, only copies were destroyed, originals were preserved. LRH tech lives on, parts of it simply became more covert. That's a pattern - Scientology does not reform, it becomes sneakier - and perhaps, eventually, with a new "Chairman of the Board" replacing the current one, Scientology will become more subtle, slicker, and "friendlier," and the cult-machine will return to running at full capacity. No doubt some will be delighted.

I agree. In Hubbard's time a standard operating procedure was that Hubbard didn't know what was going on.

Every time a SO mission failed, as in Sibersky's "Battle of Britain" mission, the justification used was that the person running the mission was a renegade doing things Ron knew nothing about.

In fact the cycle of action was always something like this: A mission would arrive with direct orders from LRH, the mission would foul up and the SO personel carrying it out would be disciplined with the accompanying story that LRH had had no idea about what was going on.

This cycle was repeated with the GO's Operation Snow White.

If one steps back and looks at things, it beggars belief that Ron, a control freak who monitored everything to do with his cult church, would not know what his slaves were doing and did not command their actions.

The idea that DM cut LRH's comm lines and Ron did not know what he was doing is just the same pattern repeating. We are now into the foul-up stage where apologists are saying DM is a renegade who acted without LRH knowledge.

The only difference between DM and Sibersky or the GO personel is that he is at the top of the command line as LRH's replacement so cannot be removed from post as earlier foul-up patsies were. So he has been fouling up for longer than Sibersky, the GO and others did.

So we get the FZ, Rathburn. Rinder, and free-thinking Churchies trying to hold the removal-from-post position from the side. But it is still the same old "Ron didn't know" cycle being replayed.

Ron set this justification up in KSW and his justifictions for Quickie Grades and such-like tech foul-ups where he pretended that these foul-ups happened when he was off-lines and caused by "others".

Ron was a lying coward. Now what would we expect a lying coward to say when challenged over his mess-ups? "It wasn't me, it was them!" :duh:

[Peter Soderqvist]

Soderqvist1: Otto Ross tried to confront Hubbard’s Rock-slam but failed, and was put in the Chain locker instead. David Mayo was on to it as Veda’s link to Mayo’s Tapes has described, it was rudimentary NOTs. And David Mayo is the real Author of NOTs, and because of that some Freezoner reject it and thus prefer Excalibur the old OT levels.
http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/David%20Mayo.html



DAVID MAYO AFFIDAVIT Copyright (C) 1994 David Mayo
10. The technology of Dianetics and Scientology is a product of the efforts of many people, including myself, and among others, Melanie Murray, Julie Mayo, Merrill Mayo, Dona Haber, Brian Livingston, and Phoebe Mauer. Moreover, I am the primary source of NOTs and SOLO NOTs

11. During my affiliation with the Church of Scientology, I only attributed discovery and authorship of the tech to L. Ron Hubbard because I was compelled to do so as an article of faith of the Church. It is the policy of the Church to require all tech to be attributed to L Ron Hubbard
http://holysmoke.org/dm/dmayo005.htm


Soderqvist1: it’s seems to me that David Mayo is lacking in Personal Integrity, as I was back in the 80s. He like me should ask; what reason can Hubbard possibly have in order to claim that he is the only person who can contribute anything to the tech? A quote from Fundamentals of Thought is revealing!



Page 29: Study, investigation, receiving education and similar activity are all effect activities and result in the assumption of less responsibility. Thus, while it is true that a thetan cannot actually get into trouble, he can, by agreeing with the current agreed-upon thought in the universe where he finds himself, take a pattern of thinkingness which makes him less effective because he wishes to be an effect. If he feels he must gather all of his data from elsewhere, he is then the effect of knowledge, the effect of universes and postulates, and he tends to reduce his own ability to form or make knowledge thirst for other thetans’ postulates and would lead one to forget that he himself has been a party to the making of these postulates and that he himself had to follow a certain course in order to put himself in reach of other thetans’ postulates. Because one is the effect of knowledge, causing data, considerations or “facts” to come into being separates one in distance from being an effect. If one is very anxious to be an effect and if this is his basic consideration, he will not take well to causing information to come into existence, but in order to get him out of the traps in which he finds himself, it is necessary to some degree that he do so.

In other words, two extremes could be reached, neither one of which is desirable for the individual. The first extreme could be reached by emphasis only upon self-created data or information. This would bring about not only a lack of interpersonal relations, but also an anxiety to have an effect which would, as it does in barbaric peoples, result in social cruelty unimaginable in a civilized nation. The other extreme would be to forbid in its entirety anyself-created information and to condone only data or considerations generated by others than self. Here we would create an individual with no responsibility, so easily handled that he would be only a puppet. Self-created data is then not a bad thing, neither is education, but one without the other to hold it in some balance will bring about a no-game condition or a no civilization.
http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:8nSnRFH8yS8J:www.ecplanet.com/files/pdf/fot.pdf+Axioms+geometrical+truth+Scientology&cd=8&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se




14. I was often awakened during the night and interrogated (mainly by Jesse Prince ). In early February 1983, I was told by Rick Aznaran, Director of Security, RTC, (husband of Vicki Aznaran, President of RTC), to get the idea of leaving out of my head because I would never leave the property alive.


Soderqvist1: Jesse Prince deliver further evidence!



The Ever-Changing Tech of Scientology By Jesse Prince
A new NOTs course was issued, and a mad panic ensued to train auditors and case supervisors to deliver the new OT levels internationally. I was sent down to Flag to be one of the people that trained the auditors and case supervisors, and this was a very daunting task. David Mayo was the person who introduced NOTs to everyone, and he was traveling back and forth from Int (Gilman Hot Springs) to Flag (Clearwater) every month. He would instruct us to train the students to audit in a certain way, but then when he came back the next month to check on how everyone was doing, it would all change. Every time David came the "tech" changed, so what an auditor learned in March would change by April.

I had a lot of trouble training the NOTs auditors. Some auditors grumbled that Mayo was making up the NOTs tech as he went along. Others were upset because they thought Mayo had a hidden data line to LRH. In Scientology, a "hidden data line" means someone is getting info from LRH that isn't written in a policy, bulletin or tape. In fact, as I would learn when I was promoted to RTC three years later, Mayo was making it up as he went along because he was the main author of the NOTs tech. It was also true that he had a hidden data line to LRH because Mayo had been auditing LRH on NOTs before anyone else knew anything about it. Mayo's name was on every bulletin concerning NOTs, and rightly so, because he wrote the bulletins.

Later, in 1982, LRH got the idea that Mayo was sympathetic to the mission holders, who were trying to take over Scientology, or so LRH thought. So LRH ordered that Mayo be taken off post as Senior Case Supervisor International - Senior C/S Int, that is. He ordered him and all the Senior C/S Int staff onto the Running Program, had them all labeled security risks, and finally had them all declared Suppressive. (Mayo opened his own auditing center, known as the Advanced Ability Center, in Santa Barbara after he was booted out by LRH. I was one of the people in charge of sending plants into the AAC to make sure it was totally destroyed, and we succeeded in destroying Mayo and his center.)

RTC brought a RICO suit against Mayo, because he had AAC centers all over the world and Mayo's centers were making a lot more money than the Scientology orgs were. The RICO charges were based on the idea that Mayo had stolen the NOTs materials. Mayo's defense was that he had been the primary author of the materials anyway. The suit went on and on, and it was becoming clear that Mayo was going to win the suit. So finally RTC offered Mayo a hefty settlement in return for keeping his mouth closed about being the main author of the NOTs materials. The last I heard of Mayo, he was driving a Ferrari.
http://lisatrust.bogie.nl/scientology/essays/jesse-tech.htm


Soderqvist1: it is more data by Jesse Prince pertinent to this thread in the link!



A Piece of Blue Sky Epilogue
In 1938 Hubbard's single goal was to achieve immortality in name. In his last few years money was siphoned from the Church to Hubbard. The IRS criminal investigators came on the scene too late. With Hubbard's death the investigation was abandoned, but money continued to gush into Author Services Inc., and from thence to the Church of Spiritual Technology (CST). This Church has as its sole function the perpetuation not of Scientology, but of the name L. Ron Hubbard. CST records presented in a tax case in Washington, DC, show that CST has assets of over $500 million. On 28 January 1990, The New Mexican reported that CST had dug a 350-foot tunnel into a mesa to store Hubbard's writings, which are being preserved at enormous expense using state of the art techniques. CST intend this storage facility to survive even nuclear war. There are also storage facilities near Los Angeles and in northern California.
http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/apobs/epilogue.htm


Soderqvist1: I am wondering about what Marty Rathbun has to say about Hubbard’s hidden agenda?

[Type4_PTS]

The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.


Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole new level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.


That's the current Marty Rathbun shore story. The oldest shore story was that Hubbard had left his body and was on the mothership and was no longer operating his body in 1982 (some other subordinate thetan having taken over), then the "Hubbard was in a coma in 1982" story became popular. Now, the latest is that Hubbard had his "communication lines cut," etc. Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?

The idea that it wasn't primarily "accumulated by-passed charge on his case," etc., or Marcabian attack-thought-beams, or even the diabolical 21 year old David Miscavige, but that Hubbard had had a hidden agenda since day one and was concentrating on pursuing that hidden agenda or, as he worded it shortly after having written 'Excalibur' in 1938, his "real goal," is - for some - not on the list of possibilities considered. May I suggest that - for those few hold outs - that they add it to the list of possibilities.

There is so much information, and much of it has been known for so long, and has become so easily accessible via the Internet, that it's difficult to know where to begin when old news is regarded as new news.

"DM" did start from where Hubbard left off - that's the horrible truth of it.

However, don't take my word for it. It's up to the individual to examine this information and connect the dots himself.

Martin Samuels was the founder of the Delphi school in Oregon and a Mission Holder. His comments re. Hubbard, Miscavige, Missions, etc., can be found in the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?'. Mission Holder and Class 8, FEBC, Bent Corydon, addresses the area in four chapters in that book, 'The Savior Lives Just Down the Road!', 'A Reform Movement is Derailed', 'Hubbard's Billion Dollar Caper', and 'The Savior's Revenge'.

That's a beginning - and this information was known over twenty years ago, before the various shore stories, for some, overtook reality.

There's a lot of information to examine - This is some of it:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=290382&postcount=19

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=1090

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=19183&postcount=1

David Mayo 1986 interview. Suggest reading 'Tape 3', or doing a 'find' on 'insatiable lust for money and power':

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwmsBLvcr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020827931130963516

Veda,

I am previously familiar with all of the references provided, and they are excellent sources of information, particularly with regards to showing the dark side of Hubbard, his hidden intentions, ect. However, of the two questions I asked of you in my post (highlighted in blue, above). You COMPLETELY ignored my first question. If you were going to take the time to provide all those links as you did, why not answer that question? (nothing in any of the links addressed this question either)
With regards to DM scoring major points with Hubbard for looting the mission network, it seems that you are using Martin Samuels account of this, I don't see that he was in a position to have that kind of inside information, and he anyways doesn't address that particular point. He does believe that Hubbard ordered the networks to be looted, and while that may be true, IF it was based upon false alarming reports from DM which were intended to manipulate Hubbard into deciding what he did, then I would have to label DM as the primary WHO. With the manner in which the mission network was attacked it seemed to me to have DM's fingerprints all over it, it was very similar to how he handled other things in the future.

[Veda]

I quoted, with bolding and underlining, a paragraph from my earlier post, which - I had hoped - would clarify that I never stated that Hubbard appointed Miscavige as his successor, only that Hubbard used Miscavige as a henchmen, and if Hubbard had not done so, Miscavige would not have been in a position, later, to assert himself into becoming the new Scientology dictator.

Plenty in the links answered your questions. For starters, you might read (or re-read) the Martin Samuels, Bent Corydon references - and the recommended book chapters. They were in a position to know.

The Mission Holders had $$$ that Hubbard wanted, and Miscavige was Hubbard's errand boy to fetch what Hubbard regarded as his money. Desiring to solidify his base, Hubbard didn't "need or want" independent, rich, Mission Holders. They were either going to be brought to their knees or wiped out.

[Blue Spirit]

Of course.:) Hubbard was applying his own tech, per his 'Bolivar' Policy Letter, "Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies." http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=122173&postcount=16 The Mafia has a similar policy, and it sounds "strategic," but it's the strategy of a criminal, a thug and a coward.

There was nothing preventing Hubbard from communicating directly to the Mission Holders other than his fear of being held accountable for his actions. It was acceptable to Hubbard that his wife be brought before a judge, and eventually sent to prison, but he would not be standing by her side - instead he would be in hiding, denying everything, and even writing a "Common Sense Moral Code" to be distributed to the "wogs" to "prove" what a moral fellow he was.

It's noteworthy that another cult leader, Sun Myung Moon, some years later, was found guilty of tax fraud and served time in a federal correction facility as result. He took the rap, came out, and continued as the leader of his cult. Last time I looked, the 'Moonies' were as established as ever, and at age 89, Moon was still the leader.

Hubbard chose to be a coward, and sent his front groups and PR people into high gear to cover up his disgusting behavior.

As for Hubbard's 'advices', Scientologists can rest easy, only copies were destroyed, originals were preserved. LRH tech lives on, parts of it simply became more covert. That's a pattern - Scientology does not reform, it becomes sneakier - and perhaps, eventually, with a new "Chairman of the Board" replacing the current one, Scientology will become more subtle, slicker, and "friendlier," and the cult-machine will return to running at full capacity. No doubt some will be delighted.

VEDA, your writings are growing on me, I must admit.

IF LRH had been able to humbly submit his Case to be resolved with his own

tech, so that only his good side (real side ?) had been in play then

Scientology could, I see, acheived some real sanity for the many, not the few.

BTW, the "Madman Or Messiah" book is recommended as it is not an outright

attack book, but a balanced truthful account of the whole picture.

[Zinjifar]

The problem with recognizing the evils of Scientology as 'Ron's Case' is that it deliberately ignores that *there is no such thing as 'Case' as used within the Scientology Philosophy*. To attempt to salvage an unworkable and unsubstantiated cornerstone of Scientology is the attempt to salvage Scientology itself. To analyze Scientology using Scientology concepts is to fall into the circular logic trap that is Scientology.

Zinj

[Type4_PTS]

I quoted, with bolding and underlining, a paragraph from my earlier post, which - I had hoped - would clarify that I never stated that Hubbard appointed Miscavige as his successor, only that Hubbard used Miscavige as a henchmen, and if Hubbard had not done so, Miscavige would not have been in a position, later, to assert himself into becoming the new Scientology dictator.


Maybe I could have asked you in a better way what I was wanting to know. I see you've never stated that Hubbard never appointed Miscavige as a successor. But do you believe that Miscavige's steady increase in power aligned with Hubbards intention in any way? I was not sure if you were implying this by the original sentence I posted about. After reading your past couple posts, I believe the answer is no, but you've not directly answered it. If yes, what supporting evidence do you have?




Plenty in the links answered your questions. For starters, you might read (or re-read) the Martin Samuels, Bent Corydon references - and the recommended book chapters. They were in a position to know.


The Bent Corydon reference you provided I thought was the one that dealt with the "Scientological Onion", nothing to do with the Missions Holders conferences. I did go re-read the section in his book where he discussed this time period. He may have concluded that Hubbard was completely running the show at that time (with true reports coming from DM) based upon his investigation he did for his book, and he MAY have been correct about this. But he was NOT in a position to observe this directly. He even states in that section of the book:
I learned much later that, following this, messages were shuttled
between Hubbard and Miscavage regarding the mission holders'
meetings."
Corydon was in a position to see WHAT was happening with regards to the attack on the mission holders including himself, but as far as what was going on in Hubbards head and the reports going to him from DM, he was in no position to see this, or even close.

[Veda]

Maybe I could have asked you in a better way what I was wanting to know. I see you've never stated that Hubbard never appointed Miscavige as a successor. But do you believe that Miscavige's steady increase in power aligned with Hubbards intention in any way? I was not sure if you were implying this by the original sentence I posted about. After reading your past couple posts, I believe the answer is no, but you've not directly answered it. If yes, what supporting evidence do you have?

The Bent Corydon reference you provided I thought was the one that dealt with the "Scientological Onion", nothing to do with the Missions Holders conferences. I did go re-read the section in his book where he discussed this time period. He may have concluded that Hubbard was completely running the show at that time (with true reports coming from DM) based upon his investigation he did for his book, and he MAY have been correct about this. But he was NOT in a position to observe this directly. He even states in that section of the book:
I learned much later that, following this, messages were shuttled
between Hubbard and Miscavige regarding the mission holders'
meetings."
Corydon was in a position to see WHAT was happening with regards to the attack on the mission holders including himself, but as far as what was going on in Hubbards head and the reports going to him from DM, he was in no position to see this, or even close.

How does one answer a question such as, "Do you believe that Miscavige's steady increase in power aligned with Hubbard's intention in any way?" Well, I've answered that several times, to the best of my ability.

The first Mission Holder's meeting is what triggered Hubbard's response - which manifested through Miscavige and others - at the second Mission Holder's meeting. That Hubbard reacted angrily was not surprising at all. He didn't have to be given "false data" by the the 21 year old David Miscavige. An honest report would have outraged him.

The 'Scientological Onion' only appears in the 1992 and 1996 editions of 'Messiah or Madman', and in the Moscow published Russian language 2005 edition. It was written by Brian Ambry and has nothing to do with events at either of the Mission Holder's meetings. It links to an e-book, 'Brainwashing Manual Parallels', which I recommend that you read.

If you've already read the several recommended chapters in 'Messiah or Madman?' by Bent Corydon, then I suggest reading them again, more carefully. I can tell you that Corydon was privy to communications between Hubbard and his subordinates who had been assigned by Hubbard to fulfil a financial stat - 'The Billion Dollar Caper'. Corydon also spoke with numerous "insiders." He had much "inside" information.

I've provided an abundance of material - that's all I can do. None of this is new news. For years both the C of S Hubbardites, and the non C of S Hubbardites, have been in denial about the events of 1982, just as they've been in denial about so much else. Now, Marty Rathbun is the latest in a long series of Hubbardites putting his own spin on past events. When that "spin" doesn't seen to convince, he resorts to the old favorite, "Come up to present time!"

Hubbard established a personality cult based on the Totalist model. This model is described in the many links I provided for you - if you search for it. There's a huge amount of information available on ESMB, in posts and in links. I suggest that you take a few weeks and look it over - it takes time.

No one knows exactly what was "going on in Hubbard's head," including Marty Rathbun. - Only Hubbard's Guardian Angel (See his 'The Affirmations') can tell you that. :)

[Type4_PTS]

How does one answer a question such as, "Do you believe that Miscavige's steady increase in power aligned with Hubbard's intention in any way?" Well, I've answered that several times, to the best of my ability.

The first Mission Holder's meeting is what triggered Hubbard's response - which manifested through Miscavige and others - at the second Mission Holder's meeting. That Hubbard reacted angrily was not surprising at all. He didn't have to be given "false data" by the the 21 year old David Miscavige. An honest report would have outraged him.

The 'Scientological Onion' only appears in the 1992 and 1996 editions of 'Messiah or Madman', and in the Moscow published Russian language 2005 edition. It was written by Brian Ambry and has nothing to do with events at either of the Mission Holder's meetings. It links to an e-book, 'Brainwashing Manual Parallels', which I recommend that you read.

If you've already read the several recommended chapters in 'Messiah or Madman?' by Bent Corydon, then I suggest reading them again, more carefully. I can tell you that Corydon was privy to communications between Hubbard and his subordinates who had been assigned by Hubbard to fulfil a financial stat - 'The Billion Dollar Caper'. Corydon also spoke with numerous "insiders." He had much "inside" information.

I've provided an abundance of material - that's all I can do. None of this is new news. For years both the C of S Hubbardites, and the non C of S Hubbardites, have been in denial about the events of 1982, just as they've been in denial about so much else. Now, Marty Rathbun is the latest in a long series of Hubbardites putting his own spin on past events. When that "spin" doesn't seen to convince, he resorts to the old favorite, "Come up to present time!"

Hubbard established a personality cult based on the Totalist model. This model is described in the many links I provided for you - if you search for it. There's a huge amount of information available on ESMB, in posts and in links. I suggest that you take a few weeks and look it over - it takes time.

No one knows exactly what was "going on in Hubbard's head," including Marty Rathbun. - Only Hubbard's Guardian Angel (See his 'The Affirmations') can tell you that. :)

Veda, first of all (as I indicated in my first response to your post, I agree with much of what you laid out with regards to the historical data. My questions all pertained to ONE sentence in your entire post. My first question I was attempting to ask I must be articulating very badly, as I don't feel you answered it. (but I give up for the moment ;)
As far as Bent Corydon is concerned, I do respect him, know he's done alot of research, spoken to insiders, and wrote a great book. My only issue with his comments as concerns the attack on the mission holders was his information wasn't first hand, direct observation, but rather relying on "insiders" to fill in much of his knowledge. Maybe I missed one of the chapters you recommended.......I'll go back and take a look when I get a chance.
I know no one knows exactly "what was going on in Hubbard's head", I didn't mean it literally. I just prefer hearing accounts directly from the "insiders" who observed first hand events as they happened........and from as many of these sources as are available. Speaking of which, according to Corydon, David Mayo was present during one of these meetings concerning the mission holders along with Miscavige and Pat Broeker (representing Hubbard). You don't happen to know if Mayo spoke about this meeting by chance? I'd be interested in what he had to say.
"I learned much later that, following this, messages were shuttled
between Hubbard and Miscavage regarding the mission holders'
meetings. Pat Broeker, who represented Hubbard and carried his
written messages, met secretly with Miscavage and David Mayo in a
restaurant which was located just a mile from my mission.
Hubbard was livid! He wrote that the mission holders had been
infiltrated by government agents in an attempt to take over Scientol-
ogy." (from chapter 17, L. Ron Hubbard, Madman or Messiah? - Corydon)

[Zinjifar]

The resident font of wisdom on matters Mission Holders Conferences is Alan Walter, who is around sometimes but has also made any number of posts on the subject. Depends on what it is you're trying to find out, but, he's dah man.

Zinj

[Type4_PTS]

The resident font of wisdom on matters Mission Holders Conferences is Alan Walter, who is around sometimes but has also made any number of posts on the subject. Depends on what it is you're trying to find out, but, he's dah man.

Zinj

Thanx Zinj,
I guess what I would like to find out, more out of historical curiosity than anything, is whose idea was it REALLY to attack the mission holders as had been done. I guess the reason I'm resisting the idea that it is all Hubbards (and not due to DM or anyone intentionally feeding him alarming false reports) is this: What doesn't make sense to me is that Hubbard would destroy the biggest missions for a one-time payoff when in reality the missions are a huge source of income for the Co$ feeding people to the orgs and Flag from the missions. To me, it seems like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me something that more closely fits DM's M.O. as over the years he has shown that he's got no problem destroying management networks, marketing units, ect., despite the fact they they are critical to bringing in money. An example of what I mean is like what was done to Jeff Hawkins when he was wildly successful in creating these incredible national marketing campaigns for Dianetics, pushing DMSMH onto the bestseller lists, bringing in lots and lots of fresh meat that got onto the bridge, and LOTS of money into the Co$. It seemed to me to be completely intentional the way this campaign (and the Central Marketing Unit at Int) was destroyed. If making money is one of the top priorities for the Co$ why sabotage marketing campaigns, mission networks, ect that are causing the expansion of scientology and bringing in money? I don't believe it's explained by stupidity or incompetence, but rather they are intentional acts of destruction. But I don't get what the real motivation IS.

[lkwdblds]

Yes, it's a strange subject.

Scientology, as a "movement," requires a publicized, (seemingly) benign, spacious, and robust mental-healing component (Level or "Layer One"). That's missing these days, and the people-exploiting cult-machine won't run at full efficiency without it.

Your quote above puts a cap on what this thread was supposed to be all about, i.e. comparing Hubbard's C of S to the current C of S.

Layer 1,the highly visibible beneficial component is missing. The dream of peace on Earth, the desire to help, practical wisom, civilized communication, a robust mental healing component,some potentially beneficial counseling procedures, talk of personal freedom and freedom for all mankind are all either totally missing or exist much less than in Hubbard's C of S.
Lkwdblds

[lkwdblds]

Thanx Zinj,
I guess what I would like to find out, more out of historical curiosity than anything, is whose idea was it REALLY to attack the mission holders as had been done. I guess the reason I'm resisting the idea that it is all Hubbards (and not due to DM or anyone intentionally feeding him alarming false reports) is this: What doesn't make sense to me is that Hubbard would destroy the biggest missions for a one-time payoff when in reality the missions are a huge source of income for the Co$ feeding people to the orgs and Flag from the missions. To me, it seems like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me something that more closely fits DM's M.O. as over the years he has shown that he's got no problem destroying management networks, marketing units, ect., despite the fact they they are critical to bringing in money. An example of what I mean is like what was done to Jeff Hawkins when he was wildly successful in creating these incredible national marketing campaigns for Dianetics, pushing DMSMH onto the bestseller lists, bringing in lots and lots of fresh meat that got onto the bridge, and LOTS of money into the Co$. It seemed to me to be completely intentional the way this campaign (and the Central Marketing Unit at Int) was destroyed. If making money is one of the top priorities for the Co$ why sabotage marketing campaigns, mission networks, ect that are causing the expansion of scientology and bringing in money? I don't believe it's explained by stupidity or incompetence, but rather they are intentional acts of destruction. But I don't get what the real motivation IS.

Type 4 - I had similar questions to what you are asking above. I can think of two possible answers that have some plausibility.

First, there is a Hubbard precident for killing off the geese who laid the Golden Eggs. Going back to the 1960's Hubbard had no problem busitng and off loading many of his top and most dedicated people. John Mac Masters, the first Clear was busted, Otto Roos, Class XII had his Certs pulled and was kicked out, Nibs Hubbard was not paid enough to raise his family and he left, many Class XII's such as Alex Siberski and Ron Shaffron were off loaded, even David Mayo, the top tech terminal on the planet for years was unceremoniously dumped while Hubbard allowed Mary Sue to go to prison for him and he ultimately disconnected from her. He would never consent to having a Number 2 Man or Woman share the limelight with him and if somebody got too popular or too big a name with the public he would see to it that they were either quickly cut down to size and humbled or off loaded.

The other point may be that Hubbard's priorities changed as he got older and suffured more set backs to his various goals. He hoped to be embraced by mankind, the scientific community and world governments and instead he was scorned and made persona non grata by most governments. His tech was not accepted by the intelligencia, he could never find a home on Earth where he could call the shots, such as a Scientology country to be based in which he sought.

His original goal of blazing his name permanently into world history may have resurfaced as his predominant goal during his last years. He may have felt that the world in general was not worthy of him or his tech and that staffs and Orgs were not as effective as he had thought they would be after they did upper level training and processing and since they were not able to carry him to the high place in history which he sought, they deserved nothing from him at the end of his life.

If this is the way he began to see things as he aged, it is easy to see him bringing down the Mission network to get some quick cash in a last ditch effort to emblazon his name into the history books even though it reduced C of S's income and expansion potentials for the future, after he was gone. This is very consistent with the poor way he communicated to his public and staffs about his forthcoming body death and the poor way he made almost no provision as to who would be his the successors for his many hats though he had written extensive policies about passing on one's hats when leaving a post.
Lkwdblds

[Veda]

The resident font of wisdom on matters Mission Holders Conferences is Alan Walter, who is around sometimes but has also made any number of posts on the subject. Depends on what it is you're trying to find out, but, he's dah man.

Zinj

Zinj, as much as I respect Alan, neither he, nor anyone else, is 'dah man." Thinking in terms of "dah man" is partly what led to this Scientology mess in the first place. :)

[Veda]

-snip-

The other point may be that Hubbard's priorities changed as he got older and suffered more set backs

-snip-

Good point. After the FBI raids (1977), the "Snow White' trial, the final resolution in late 1979 of the case, the release of court's evidence in late '79, which circulated in the early 1980s, including to some of the Mission Holders, the possibility of New York and Florida criminal&civil actions based on information revealed tangentially from the 'Snow White' case - Paulette Cooper, Clearwater, etc., ongoing concerns about the IRS, etc., Hubbard - who knew that his time was running out - had to prioritize. There were certain things that he wanted to do and get done.

Scientology wasn't primarily about "helping people," it was primarily about Hubbard. This may be the difficult part for some.

[Veda]

-snip-

But I don't get what the real motivation IS.

Hubbard's consolidating of power and money under his single control, and the establishing of secret bank accounts and legal trusts that would perpetuate his "legacy" - his "real goal."

[Peter Soderqvist]

Soderqvist1: L. Ron Hubbard didn’t trust David Miscavige, he ordered Jesse Prince to security check him! This is only a short excerpt from the tapes. Read the tapes the answer is there!



L: You said Sherman Lenske, the two brothers there. What is the role of Sherman Lenske in Scientology?

J: They, as I recall them specifically, they would arrange to make sure, or get them advice to make sure that it was covered up, that L. Ron Hubbards’ authority and control over all corporations was covered up during the time he was living. They also advised him on certain things to make LRH not do, and not say. That was also a big discrepancy and problem, that ended up with the brokers. His attorneys would limit LRH’s control more and more. The excuse was "We give you any kind of money you want, just shut up and take the money and let us run things." L. Ron Hubbard felt like he was just pushed out of the picture, not that he shouldn’t have been, because he was pretty damn crazy, and I’m not justifying one way or the other, but that was the struggle with the brokers and L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige I believe, just forced L. Ron out of existence.

L: He was just taking control away from Hubbard a little piece at a time while he was alive?

J: Yeah, and L. Ron Hubbard saw it. I had to sec-check David Miscavige on this. L. Ron Hubbard asked me, "Please find out what is his intention, what is he doing by making it so I can’t even sent a dispatch or order anyone to do anything that I normally do."

L: L. Ron Hubbard believed that David Miscavige may be trying to take over control of Scientology?

J: Yes.

L: And he was worried about it?

J: Yes.
http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/jtall.txt


Soderqvist1: there is no such thing as COB on the Org Board. Read the Whole messages by Jim Logan, the answer is there!



Jim Logan: Specifically there were posts that were set up to be checks and balances, including WDC Chairman, IG RTC, the CO’s of CST, CMOI, the Exec Dir Int, among others that LRH intended to be manned with comparable power to each other so that no one person would assume absolute control of the church. To wit, if one ‘went awry’ the others would handle. Why don’t you study up on the Charters for CST and RTC say, available on the sc-irs-ology site (sans the conspiracy theory) and read the estate planning, the IRS docs that were put through the tests to gain the 501 (c) status, the Supreme Court case just prior as well as the Tax Court case which in particular clearly lays out the corporate responsibilities of each I have written that Annie told me unequivocably that LRH never intended a single person to control Scientology and he left in place a structure, the one we’ve gone over, to ensure checks and balances.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/mike-rinder/

[Veda]

Hubbard didn't trust anyone, routinely lied to and manipulated Scientologists, was frightened of being subpoenaed, and wanted the money for his monument building projects - so what else is new? Oh that's right, Marty Rathbun is organizing a new group of "we stand tall" Scientologists. This requires the rehabilitation of "Ron's image" and the "image" of Scientology. Here we go again.

[Peter Soderqvist]

Soderqvist1: Veda, your last message doesn’t add anything of substance. I have only answered you question, but obviously you don’t like the answer!



"communication lines cut," etc. Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=306863&postcount=17

[Veda]

Hubbard didn't trust anyone, routinely lied to and manipulated Scientologists, was frightened of being subpoenaed, and wanted the money for his monument building projects - so what else is new? Oh that's right, Marty Rathbun is organizing a new group of "we stand tall" Scientologists. This requires the rehabilitation of "Ron's image" and the "image" of Scientology. Here we go again.


Soderqvist1: Veda, your last message doesn’t add anything of substance. I have only answered you question, but obviously you don’t like the answer!

I haven't asked you any questions.

If you want to march in L. Ron's parade then go right ahead. :p

[Peter Soderqvist]

I haven't asked you any questions.

If you want to march in L. Ron's parade then go right ahead. :p

Soderqvist1: No, but I need to be fair and objective in order to be credible. I have posted this message at Clambake org. regarding the Think-Tankers!



Soderqvist1: I like Scientology!
I have really got a piece of bread to satisfy my spiritual needs, what you and other have described more or less correct here is a hook, I hate the hook, but I love the bread, so we have a problem with a Bait and Switch Racket. Let the Revisionist have their little half-truth because I think that is the right way to go about in order to make things better. When David Miscavige is removed from power by the Revisionists, our troops will move forward and let them face the whole truth, and the truth will set them free!
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=366205#366205


True thyself, and the truth will set you free!

[lkwdblds]

Just a comment as an observer and participant who is an outsider -

Most message board threads, talk radio calls, cable news interviews, etc. just degenerate into name calling, bashing sessions between opposing viewpoints. Almost never is any valid data presented or analysis done to come up with a consensus of what has been achieved when all the name calling is over. Almost no one ever changes their opinion or admits they were wrong. It is primarily a low form of entertainment leading to a dead end.

On this thread, I believe the question on which the thread was based has been thoroughly answered and valid new (new to some of us) information has been presented which has opened the door to new speculations about topics senior to that on which the thread was started. This is a real achievement of magnitude!
Lkwdblds

P.S. - Just a meaningless piece of trivia. I actually knew Sherman Lenske at U.C.L.A. way back in 1959 and 1960. He was in a fraternity there which I pledged. Coincidently, he was a short man in stature, maybe 5"5" tall which is probably about the same height as DM.

[Type4_PTS]

Type 4 - I had similar questions to what you are asking above. I can think of two possible answers that have some plausibility.

First, there is a Hubbard precident for killing off the geese who laid the Golden Eggs. Going back to the 1960's Hubbard had no problem busitng and off loading many of his top and most dedicated people. John Mac Masters, the first Clear was busted, Otto Roos, Class XII had his Certs pulled and was kicked out, Nibs Hubbard was not paid enough to raise his family and he left, many Class XII's such as Alex Siberski and Ron Shaffron were off loaded, even David Mayo, the top tech terminal on the planet for years was unceremoniously dumped while Hubbard allowed Mary Sue to go to prison for him and he ultimately disconnected from her. He would never consent to having a Number 2 Man or Woman share the limelight with him and if somebody got too popular or too big a name with the public he would see to it that they were either quickly cut down to size and humbled or off loaded.

The other point may be that Hubbard's priorities changed as he got older and suffured more set backs to his various goals. He hoped to be embraced by mankind, the scientific community and world governments and instead he was scorned and made persona non grata by most governments. His tech was not accepted by the intelligencia, he could never find a home on Earth where he could call the shots, such as a Scientology country to be based in which he sought.

His original goal of blazing his name permanently into world history may have resurfaced as his predominant goal during his last years. He may have felt that the world in general was not worthy of him or his tech and that staffs and Orgs were not as effective as he had thought they would be after they did upper level training and processing and since they were not able to carry him to the high place in history which he sought, they deserved nothing from him at the end of his life.

If this is the way he began to see things as he aged, it is easy to see him bringing down the Mission network to get some quick cash in a last ditch effort to emblazon his name into the history books even though it reduced C of S's income and expansion potentials for the future, after he was gone. This is very consistent with the poor way he communicated to his public and staffs about his forthcoming body death and the poor way he made almost no provision as to who would be his the successors for his many hats though he had written extensive policies about passing on one's hats when leaving a post.
Lkwdblds

Hey Lkwdblds,
Thank-You for those thoughts............you definitely raised some good points. Hubbard was definitely a complicated man with seeming multiple personalities and definitely his attitudes changed in the later years.

[Blue Spirit]

Hubbard had two counter-opposing valences which were polar opposites.

These were there in the early fifties showing up as the negative one when

under stress. This one never resolved, but could have been if Otto Roos had

had his way, I believe, and was able to audit him on his rockslam reads.

LRH became Very Serious on that occasion. "Serious = Mass". >LRH

He created a lot of valuable tech, but in the end destroyed much of

that creation.

He never handled his serious paranoia and instead of out-creating his enemies

succumbed to them by running away from 1967 for 20 years until he died.


I've done 3 years of internet research and was reluctant to believe some

things about Hubbard, particularly the drug use, but finally saw the light

when four or more viewpoints close to him kept producing the same info.

His life is now an open book. Those in comm with him probably still don't have

the courage to bring up these things. LRH should come back and borrow a

body and take it to a good FZ auditor and get handled. I'm not kidding.

After that statement, I'll be hiding out in my cave for the next two weeks.:whistling:

[lkwdblds]

Hubbard had two counter-opposing valences which were polar opposites.

These were there in the early fifties showing up as the negative one when

under stress. This one never resolved, but could have been if Otto Roos had

had his way, I believe, and was able to audit him on his rockslam reads.

LRH became Very Serious on that occasion. "Serious = Mass". >LRH

He created a lot of valuable tech, but in the end destroyed much of

that creation.

He never handled his serious paranoia and instead of out-creating his enemies

succumbed to them by running away from 1967 for 20 years until he died.


I've done 3 years of internet research and was reluctant to believe some

things about Hubbard, particularly the drug use, but finally saw the light

when four or more viewpoints close to him kept producing the same info.

His life is now an open book. Those in comm with him probably still don't have

the courage to bring up these things. LRH should come back and borrow a

body and take it to a good FZ auditor and get handled. I'm not kidding.

After that statement, I'll be hiding out in my cave for the next two weeks.:whistling:

Blue Spirit - Good post, well stated points. Yes, I believe that the point where he rejected Otto Roos's offer to apply Class XII tech to clean up his Rock Slams, out lists and over runs was a key moment in C of S history. Had Hubbard allowed Otto Roos to go ahead with this auditing program for him, C of S may have ended up a lot different than it did, a lot more sane.

I duly note Zinjifar's comment that one would have to assume auditing has workability for Roos's program to have been able to clear up Hubbard's case. For me, I have had wrong items indicated to me and run on me and I have had processes run on me past the end phenomena and these actions always gummed up my tone arm and needle and when a repair list was run to straighten out the auditing errors, it always totally handled and cleared up the upset very quickly 100% of the time. I am totally convinced based on my own experiences as both an auditor and a pc that auditing procedures can and do quickly repair auditing errors and this is all that would have been required of Hubbard's auditing for it to give him great relief mentally.

Also, you put it well saying that Hubbard was in hiding from his enemies for nearly the last 20 years of his life. In all fairness to Hubbard, I can see his not wanting to continually have to defend himself in courts and a case can be made for him hiding out instead and developing more tech, making more movies and writing a large amount of science fiction in his last years. The thing is that he brought on the threat of being dragged into court by hiding vast sums of income from the governments and not paying taxes on it.
Lkwdblds

[Zinjifar]

I duly note Zinjifar's comment that one would have to assume auditing has workability for Roos's program to have been able to clear up Hubbard's case.

Maybe you read something I didn't say :) My point was that there's no such thing as a 'Hubbard Case' because the whole concept of 'Case' is a well planned booby trap.

Zinj

[lkwdblds]

Maybe you read something I didn't say :) My point was that there's no such thing as a 'Hubbard Case' because the whole concept of 'Case' is a well planned booby trap.

Zinj

Sorry for misquoting you. The concepts of "case" being bogus or whether or not auditing has workability are separate concepts. In either of those two scenarios, however, Hubbard's refusal to accept Roos's auditing correction program would not have mattered at all as to how the future of Scientology unfolded after Roos's offer to clean up Hubbard's auditing errors was rejected.
Lkwdblds