The orgins of the Scientology cross

[Rmack]

Check out the various crosses shown in this video that seem to be more elaborate versions of $ci's. Make sure you read the names of the people given "special thanks" at the end. Recognize any?

crosshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EWkrezQXDM

[rich]

I only recognized alister crowley but I subscribed to the video channel so I can learn more. Thanks ,it looks very interesting. I 'spose hubbard knew all this info? r.

[Rmack]

In the "Rosicrucian Order" one of the higher grade requirements is that you "establish a school of philosophy" before advancing to a certain grade.

Does that sound like deja vu all over again, or what?:coolwink:

[byte301]

Elron was involved with Crowley and Parsons so it's not a huge leap to figure out where he got his cross from.

Black Magick? Moar likely then you think!! lol

[asagai]

I find Ron's pre-Scn involvement in AMORC and OTO is often discounted by his Scn followers as if it is something he grew out of.

There is no evidence that he grew out of his magical roots.

On the other hand Scn contains many elements and ideas found in AMORC and/or OTO.

Some of the common things are

The Cross
Thought forms, Elementals - Body thetans and Entities
Postulates
Will-power - Intention
Creating Causes
The Akashic Records, Magical Memory - The Time Track
Left hand path - Self Determinism
Soul/Spirit/Matter - Thetan/Theta/Physical Universe
Running out Birth
Astral Body - Exteriorisation
Mock-ups


Much of Scn theory and practice is a re-write of AMORC and OTO teachings. Scientology was born out of the content of his magic affirmations (admissions)

Even his apparent dying wish not to have an autopsy is a Rosicrucian belief about the departure of the soul from the dead body, although per this he should not have been cremated so quickly.

Usually when his magical roots are discussed on ESMB, Hubbard's defenders come on saying it is irrelevant/ unimportant/ OK anyway. This often deflects ex-scns attention away from Ron's magical roots.

[DartSmohen]

In the "Rosicrucian Order" one of the higher grade requirements is that you "establish a school of philosophy" before advancing to a certain grade.

Does that sound like deja vu all over again, or what?:coolwink:

That is about 8th Level Adept.

Friend of mine established the College in Alston and subsequently moved on up to become a 9th Level Adept, the highest order.

I got to be a 5th Level Adept before pulling the plug on them. It soon became clear that they had no real answers.

Hubbard dabbled in the AMORC version for a while. I suppose he was looking for ways to "become more powerful over others". Mind you, he seems to have learned a few tips from the Crowley outfit.

[Voltaire's Child]

Elron was involved with Crowley and Parsons so it's not a huge leap to figure out where he got his cross from.

Black Magick? Moar likely then you think!! lol

Hubbard wasn't involved with Crowley. He evidently gave Crowley props, but Crowley wanted nothing to do with Hubbard.

He was involved with Parsons, though.

I don't consider that magick to be "black".

[Voltaire's Child]

I find Ron's pre-Scn involvement in AMORC and OTO is often discounted by his Scn followers as if it is something he grew out of.

There is no evidence that he grew out of his magical roots.

On the other hand Scn contains many elements and ideas found in AMORC and/or OTO.

Some of the common things are

The Cross
Thought forms, Elementals - Body thetans and Entities
Postulates
Will-power - Intention
Creating Causes
The Akashic Records, Magical Memory - The Time Track
Left hand path - Self Determinism
Soul/Spirit/Matter - Thetan/Theta/Physical Universe
Running out Birth
Astral Body - Exteriorisation
Mock-ups


Much of Scn theory and practice is a re-write of AMORC and OTO teachings. Scientology was born out of the content of his magic affirmations (admissions)

Even his apparent dying wish not to have an autopsy is a Rosicrucian belief about the departure of the soul from the dead body, although per this he should not have been cremated so quickly.

Usually when his magical roots are discussed on ESMB, Hubbard's defenders come on saying it is irrelevant/ unimportant/ OK anyway. This often deflects ex-scns attention away from Ron's magical roots.


I don't believe it was his dying wish not to have an autopsy. I think that's something Starkey et al cooked up and that it's mighty suspicious. Hubbard routinely mocked people who were worried about the disposition of dead bodies.

Though I definitely think that the involvement in OTO, the magick, the affirmations all definitely tie in to Scn a great deal. I don't think it's irrelevant or unimportant at all. When I read the affirmations, I could see the tie in and relevance. Although, for the life of me, as a quantum "Hubbard defender", I really don't see why it's a problem or NOT o.k. for him to have been involved in the occult and to have inculcated it into Scn. The only problem I personally have with it is that he was not candid about that and neither is the cult candid about it now.

I was reading a book by Mary Roach recently and she described her or someone else having found some old book wherein there were a series of handwritten comments (not by Hubbard) that were exactly like affirmations. 'cept, of course, those were that person's affirmations. It's an old old thing and seems to definitely have been used in magick.

I personally think the Scn cross, though, is just a PR imitation of the Christian cross, so that the church can keep up the myth of being non or pan denominational.

[asagai]

There we go, I think I predicted this,

"Usually when his magical roots are discussed on ESMB, Hubbard's defenders come on saying it is irrelevant/ unimportant/ OK anyway. This often deflects ex-scns attention away from Ron's magical roots."

[Voltaire's Child]

There we go, I think I predicted this,

"Usually when his magical roots are discussed on ESMB, Hubbard's defenders come on saying it is irrelevant/ unimportant/ OK anyway. This often deflects ex-scns attention away from Ron's magical roots."

Good thing no one actually did that!

By all means, let's focus the spotlight on Hubbard's magic(k)al roots. I don't think enough Scn'ists know about that.

[asagai]

Fluffy, you are right to notice that Hubbard's and the CofS's lack of honesty about Scientology's roots is a problem.

But as we know, Ron was notoriously terrible at handling problems! :yes:

[Voltaire's Child]

Yeah, he tended to avoid them or, worse yet, to use fair game tactics, etc.

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Well, I won't recommend reading this. It is some seriously sick dreck.. It is, however written by Hubbards very good freind, and it probably answers any doubts about it being black, or shitbrown magic:
MOONCHILD by ALEISTER CROWLEY (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/moonchild/index.html)© Ordo Templi Orientis

I read it.. I wanted to see what Hubbard and Parsons was up to back then, with their pants down and poking boners into the room at large. The book dosn't give you any useful advice or description as to how to work the magic.. Not any more than books by Lovecraft..

:yes:

[Dulloldfart]

I don't believe it was his dying wish not to have an autopsy. I think that's something Starkey et al cooked up and that it's mighty suspicious. Hubbard routinely mocked people who were worried about the disposition of dead bodies.


You could be right. The paperwork is dated 20 January 1986, after the stroke but before the death. The whole thing could have been done at any time, though, although it does have Hubbard's fingerprint on it so the body would have been needed. Images of the paperwork: http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/hubbard12.png and http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/hubbard13.png

Personally, given the choice, I would like to avoid an autopsy too and get the body quickly cremated. It saves sideshow exhibits like this one from http://www.lilith-ezine.com/articles/sex/Rasputin-Russia-Greatest-Love-Machine.html said to be Rasputin's penis:

Paul

[Tanstaafl]

You could be right. The paperwork is dated 20 January 1986, after the stroke but before the death. The whole thing could have been done at any time, though, although it does have Hubbard's fingerprint on it so the body would have been needed. Images of the paperwork: http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/hubbard12.png and http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/hubbard13.png

Personally, given the choice, I would like to avoid an autopsy too and get the body quickly cremated. It saves sideshow exhibits like this one from http://www.lilith-ezine.com/articles/sex/Rasputin-Russia-Greatest-Love-Machine.html said to be Rasputin's penis:

Paul

Honestly Paul, I really don't think there's much chance of your penis being publicly exhibited (well, not after your death anyway :D).

Unless there's something remarkable about it you haven't told us about? :whistling:

[Voltaire's Child]

Just a side note -not really about Hubbard- but I recently got (from the library) a book on occultism, had all these different articles, etc. Different schools of thought. I was sort of intrigued but the more I read it the more the people who pioneered the various movements, etc, struck me as really really troubled and the stuff seemed immersed in unnecessary symbolism.

Scn seems to have very little of the unnecessary symbolism.

[Dulloldfart]

Honestly Paul, I really don't think there's much chance of your penis being publicly exhibited (well, not after your death anyway :D).


Yeah. With regard to that photo, the things some guys will go through to have hot chicks look at their pride and joy!

Paul

[asagai]

Yeah, he tended to avoid them or, worse yet, to use fair game tactics, etc.

If one examines Scn from the point of view of "solutions" to problems one can see that just about every "Breakthrough" of tech or policy or secret policy was Hubbard's method of handling something that was a problem to him. :)

Poor Ron never seemed to get past his own Grade I "technology".



Just a side note -not really about Hubbard- but I recently got (from the library) a book on occultism, had all these different articles, etc. Different schools of thought. I was sort of intrigued but the more I read it the more the people who pioneered the various movements, etc, struck me as really really troubled and the stuff seemed immersed in unnecessary symbolism.

Scn seems to have very little of the unnecessary symbolism.

I agree, although Hubbard wasn't averse to the odd symbol or two! :wink2:

I too have noticed how messed up occultists tended to be, but I'm not sure which came first: the occult practice or the messed up personality.

BTW have you ever looked at Mdme Blavatsky? Her personality and life is frighteningly similar to LRH's. Just substitute spiritualists for pyschiatrists, mediumship for auditing and a few other simple substitutions.

She died 12 years before Ron was born! :omg:

[Royal Prince Xenu]

The origins of the "cross" go way back beyond Pagan religions, and most people do not know its true meaning.

Now don't take this as sexist or politically incorrect:

The vertical is the father, the idea;

The horizontal is the mother, the creator;

The junction is the child, the manifestation.

lrh, as I recall, stated that the additional four points were to make sure the Scn cross had a respresentation of all eight dynamics. As for the florid petallish ends, I think that was because he was in the closet with Tom Cruise.

[byte301]

Maybe Davey should take a lesson from elron and have some circle jerks with his bff Tommy. Might make him a better leader. Couldn't hurt.

:pixiedust:

:clapping:

[Voltaire's Child]

No, I know very little about Mme Blavatsky. That's very interesting, as is the rest of what you said, Asagai.

[asagai]

No, I know very little about Mme Blavatsky. That's very interesting, as is the rest of what you said, Asagai.

I read a lot about Theosophy after I got booted out of Scn. The character traits are frighteningly similar! :omg:

[Rmack]

That is about 8th Level Adept.

Friend of mine established the College in Alston and subsequently moved on up to become a 9th Level Adept, the highest order.

I got to be a 5th Level Adept before pulling the plug on them. It soon became clear that they had no real answers.

Hubbard dabbled in the AMORC version for a while. I suppose he was looking for ways to "become more powerful over others". Mind you, he seems to have learned a few tips from the Crowley outfit.

What is "the College in Alston"?

In most Rosicrucian systems, the grade 7=4 "Exempt Adept" is where the founding of a school of philosophy is required to advance to "8=3" "Magister Templi" or "Master of the Temple" These are associated with the "Tree of Life " Sephira "Chesed" (mercy) and "Binah" (understanding). There are two grades after that.

[Rmack]

Well, I won't recommend reading this. It is some seriously sick dreck.. It is, however written by Hubbards very good freind, and it probably answers any doubts about it being black, or shitbrown magic:
MOONCHILD by ALEISTER CROWLEY (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/moonchild/index.html)© Ordo Templi Orientis

I read it.. I wanted to see what Hubbard and Parsons was up to back then, with their pants down and poking boners into the room at large. The book dosn't give you any useful advice or description as to how to work the magic.. Not any more than books by Lovecraft..

:yes:


It's worthwhile to read anything by "Dion Fortune" who was really Violet Firth. (The serious looking young lady wearing the tie on the video) Particularly "Moon Magic" "The Demon Lover", "The Winged Bull" or "The Secrets of Doctor Tavener.

To her credit, she was said to have loathed Alister Crowley, even though he supposedly referred to her as "his priestess" or something.

She founded "The Fraternity of the Inner Light" which still exists today. For a better modern vehicle, check out;

lvx.org

[Moonchild]

Well, I won't recommend reading this. It is some seriously sick dreck.. It is, however written by Hubbards very good freind, and it probably answers any doubts about it being black, or shitbrown magic:
MOONCHILD by ALEISTER CROWLEY (http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/moonchild/index.html)© Ordo Templi Orientis

I read it.. I wanted to see what Hubbard and Parsons was up to back then, with their pants down and poking boners into the room at large. The book dosn't give you any useful advice or description as to how to work the magic.. Not any more than books by Lovecraft..

:yes:


Damn, my cover is blown....:nervous:

I think the "magick" was black-ish alright; you don't create an homunculus just to play "Scrabble" with it do you?

If it's to your taste, worth reading for Crowley's dry humour which I personally find quite rib-tickling.

And Lovecraft? I couldn't help but see a similarity between the "Necronomicon" and "Excalibur"....

[Moonchild]

I find Ron's pre-Scn involvement in AMORC and OTO is often discounted by his Scn followers as if it is something he grew out of.

There is no evidence that he grew out of his magical roots.

On the other hand Scn contains many elements and ideas found in AMORC and/or OTO.

Some of the common things are

The Cross
Thought forms, Elementals - Body thetans and Entities
Postulates
Will-power - Intention
Creating Causes
The Akashic Records, Magical Memory - The Time Track
Left hand path - Self Determinism
Soul/Spirit/Matter - Thetan/Theta/Physical Universe
Running out Birth
Astral Body - Exteriorisation
Mock-ups


Much of Scn theory and practice is a re-write of AMORC and OTO teachings. Scientology was born out of the content of his magic affirmations (admissions)

Even his apparent dying wish not to have an autopsy is a Rosicrucian belief about the departure of the soul from the dead body, although per this he should not have been cremated so quickly.

Usually when his magical roots are discussed on ESMB, Hubbard's defenders come on saying it is irrelevant/ unimportant/ OK anyway. This often deflects ex-scns attention away from Ron's magical roots.


And of course, Karma. The arm twisted up the back. Dead handy, eh?

[Rmack]

Here's a thought for you guys,

Did you ever hear about the time some SO tried to get together and "promote" Hubbard to Admiral? The story I heard was he politely declined, saying Commodore was good enough.

When I was in the real Navy, I was taught that Commodore was a war time provisional rank that was sometimes granted to Captains. After the war was over, the Officer was either promoted to Admiral, or demoted back to Captain.

If Hubbard only considered himself a Commodore, who the f*** are the Admirals????:ohmy:

[DartSmohen]

What is "the College in Alston"?

In most Rosicrucian systems, the grade 7=4 "Exempt Adept" is where the founding of a school of philosophy is required to advance to "8=3" "Magister Templi" or "Master of the Temple" These are associated with the "Tree of Life " Sephira "Chesed" (mercy) and "Binah" (understanding). There are two grades after that.


Alston is a small town in the very North of England. A college is a SRIA established centre where they may enrol new members.

The two levels above "Magister Templi", are you referring to "Magus" status?

[holdemm]

What is "the College in Alston"?

In most Rosicrucian systems, the grade 7=4 "Exempt Adept" is where the founding of a school of philosophy is required to advance to "8=3" "Magister Templi" or "Master of the Temple" These are associated with the "Tree of Life " Sephira "Chesed" (mercy) and "Binah" (understanding). There are two grades after that.

Those words Sephira, Chesedm and Binah are Hebrew words no?

[Zinjifar]

The general thing I heard (navy family) is that 'commodore' (pronounced 'commode door') is a dubious rank granted to a senior officere who is serving on a ship, but *not* the captain of that ship.

For example, it would have been normal for a Captain to 'own' an aircraft carrier, but, not unusual for another officer to be in charge of the carrier group. (nowdays it would more likely be an admiral; inflation ya know).

But, you *can't* have two captains on a ship, so, the non-captain captain would become a commodore.

A ship's *captain* is a very unique position; he's as close to god as sea law allows.

Floosh (but, close the commode door first)

Zinj

[Rmack]

The general thing I heard (navy family) is that 'commodore' (pronounced 'commode door') is a dubious rank granted to a senior officere who is serving on a ship, but *not* the captain of that ship.

For example, it would have been normal for a Captain to 'own' an aircraft carrier, but, not unusual for another officer to be in charge of the carrier group. (nowdays it would more likely be an admiral; inflation ya know).

But, you *can't* have two captains on a ship, so, the non-captain captain would become a commodore.

A ship's *captain* is a very unique position; he's as close to god as sea law allows.

Floosh (but, close the commode door first)

Zinj

Ok, maybe that's more of the roots of it, but the point is a commodore has one fat stripe on his sleeve (or shoulder) and the first admiral rank has the fat stripe with one small one. Vice admiral? Rear admiral? I forget, but there are several more admiral ranks. Who's the top Admiral? Satan?

[Rmack]

Oh, wow, it just occurred to me, if what you say is true, Zinj, Then who was the real Captain of the Ship that hubbard couldn't be the second one of, hmmmmmm?:wink2:

[Zinjifar]

Ok, maybe that's more of the roots of it, but the point is a commodore has one fat stripe on his sleeve (or shoulder) and the first admiral rank has the fat stripe with one small one. Vice admiral? Rear admiral? I forget, but there are several more admiral ranks. Who's the top Admiral? Satan?

Rear Admiral (two stages), vice admiral, full admiral and, although I don't know if we have any currently, Fleet Admiral.

Yeah, no 5-star admirals since WWII

Zinj

[Zinjifar]

Oh, wow, it just occurred to me, if what you say is true, Zinj, Then who was the real Captain of the Ship that hubbard couldn't be the second one of, hmmmmmm?:wink2:

Babalon

Zinj

[Rmack]

That is probably more accurate, Zinj. At least from Blubbard's point of view.

[Rmack]

But, That's really my point with this thread, Zinj; Hubbard was NOT a Scientologist! He was an ultra Thelemist to the day he died.

[Rmack]

Alston is a small town in the very North of England. A college is a SRIA established centre where they may enrol new members.

The two levels above "Magister Templi", are you referring to "Magus" status?

Yes, Magus is 9=2, associated with the sephera "Chockmah" with "Ippsisimus" at the top associated with "Kether".

Traditionally the RC is divided into Three Orders. The first four Sephiroth of the Tree of Life are considered the grades of the first order, The next three-the "Adept" grades form the Second Order, and the top three is the mysterious third Order.

Some writers have insinuated that the top grade was an order unto itself, and that would seem to make since-4-3-2, then 1

[Rmack]

The origins of the "cross" go way back beyond Pagan religions, and most people do not know its true meaning.

Now don't take this as sexist or politically incorrect:

The vertical is the father, the idea;

The horizontal is the mother, the creator;

The junction is the child, the manifestation.

lrh, as I recall, stated that the additional four points were to make sure the Scn cross had a respresentation of all eight dynamics. As for the florid petallish ends, I think that was because he was in the closet with Tom Cruise.

Hey RPX, what do you think of this treatise?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2092/paper3.htm

[asagai]

But, That's really my point with this thread, Zinj; Hubbard was NOT a Scientologist! He was an ultra Thelemist to the day he died.

This is my conclusion too. But it seems hard for some ex-Scns to accept.

Any more data you can add to substantiate what you say?

[Alanzo]

SP wrote:


...with their pants down and poking boners into the room at large.

I think this about sums it up!

:lol:

[Rmack]

This is my conclusion too. But it seems hard for some ex-Scns to accept.

Any more data you can add to substantiate what you say?

Well, that's sort of a long story.

You do know that although Ron Hubbard Jr. (nibs, or Ron DeWolf) didn't use the word "ultra-thelemist" in anything I read, he described his dad's behavior in a way that strongly suggests it. When he said Hubbard considered his will to do something gave him the right to do it, he is describing what I mean by this term.

I didn't coin the term. Shortly after I read the book "LRH, Madman or Messiah?", I made the acquaintance of a most unusual gentleman who I will call Jim, and he was the first person to tell me that's what Hubbard really was.

"Jim" is the founder of "Temple of Thelema" and I gather he was associated previously with the "OTO" which, if you haven't done the homework, is the organization that Crowley sort of took over and revamped. In fact, "Jim" was apparently one of the "Caliphs" which seem to be high ranking, governing officers.

btw, don't worry, I'm not a member of any thelemic organizations, and I never will be.

He once told me that he had access to Isreal Regardie's (Crowley's secretary) possessions, including ritual robes and items, that also included carbon copies of letters that Crowley supposedly wrote to Hitler's mentor before world war two.

Carbon copies are obsolete, but suffice to say it use to be a way of making a copy of a typed or written document. Old ones are hard to read, but the gist of it is something like "oh, our boy Adolf is doing great, he's going to be a great adept!" and then evolving in later latters to say something like "he did what?" and finally into "this is a disaster, get out now".

Yes, I'm saying that L. Ron Hubbards childhood idol, Crowley, was also involved in Hitlers development through an occult network. At least, before Hitlers rise to power. Actually, this network is more than that. A book recently came out focusing on Crowley's connection to British intelligence agencies. (Check "Coast to Coast am" in the past shows section under June of this year). Even the official Scio boys will admit that Hubbard was working for U.S. intel, and claim that what he was doing in Pasadena with Jack Parsons and the American OTO lodge was taking it down. Which he did. Also absconding with Parsons ol' lady and all of his money!

Several founders of Occult organizations that's I've heard of have also been involved in espionage, starting with S.L. Macgregor Mathers, who co-founded the original "Golden Dawn". He was reputed to be a math-wiz code breaker in world war 1.

So, it should come as no surprise that many people have remarked on the striking similarities between Scientology-and especially the Sea Org-and Nazi Germany, the S.S., Gestapo, etc.

[Royal Prince Xenu]

... Yes, I'm saying that L. Ron Hubbards childhood idol, Crowley, was also involved in Hitlers development through an occult network. actually, this network is more than that. A book recently came out focusing on Crowley's connection to British intelligence agencies. (Check "Coast to Coast am" in the past shows section under June of this year). Even the official Scio boys will admit that Hubbard was working for U.S. intel, and claim that what he was doing in Pasadena with Jack Parsons and the American OTO lodge was taking it down. Which he did. Also absconding with Parsons ol' lady and all of his money!

Several founders of Occult organizations that's I've heard of have also been involved in espionage, starting with S.L. Macgregor Mathers, who co-founded the original "Golden Dawn". He was reputed to be a math wiz, code breaker in world war 1.

So, it should come as no surprise that many people have remarked on the striking similarities between Scientology-and especially the Sea Org-and Nazi Germany, the S.S., Gestapo, etc.
Sorry, I do not believe this. It is just another grandiose claim to make him look good. Hubbard pursued an interest with Crowley entirely for self-gain, and from what I recall Parsons' ol' lady was one of many that he "knocked off".

[asagai]

Thanks. That fits in with my observations.

Unfortunately there is so little data to illustrate his thelemic associations, but I agree his behaviour and development of Scn indicates that the cult was in fact a disguised left hand path magic cult.

His "shore story" as regards Parsons was that he was working for "intelligence" and he rescued Sara. Sure! :duh:

There is little in the way of overtly magical accounts from his Scn days.

One wierd account is given by MONICA PIGNOTTI http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_mp89.html

"One method of discipline was a ritual called the Kali Ceremony. A hideous picture of the Goddess Kali, the Hindu goddess of death and destruction was put up in our classroom above an altar and a ritual was held for auditors that goofed up. In a darkened candlelit room, the auditors and interns were given sheets of lyrics for a hymn to the goddess Kali, sung to the tune of "Rock of Ages". After the hymn was sung, the offending auditor was made to "bow and scrape" to the goddess Kali and then was given a knife and a mock preclear folder and told to "stab the preclear" at which time the auditor had to stab the folder over and over. I had to participate in such a ceremony on two occasions and watched many others participate in this ceremony."

[asagai]

Sorry, I do not believe this. It is just another grandiose claim to make him look good. Hubbard pursued an interest with Crowley entirely for self-gain, and from what I recall Parsons' ol' lady was one of many that he "knocked off".

I think the "intelligence" stuff is a bit of a red herring. I've read accounts of Crowley's supposed connection and it doesn't hold together.

Interestingly such personalities as Hubbard, Crowley and Mathers would probably like to spread rumours of their covert intelligence work as it suits their sense of themselves.

Of course Ronnie later set up his own espionage department in the GO!

Hitler's affiliations with the Occult is much more credibly documented. But I would guess that Crowley's perverse character might have wanted to spread rumours of his causation in the development of Hitler! :melodramatic:

[Rmack]

Have you guys ever been in the Sea Org? I have, and I can tell you, the training is pure spook training. At least it was when I joined in the very early '80's. You ever do the "missionaires hat"?

Are you sure Hubbard just pulled all this stuff out of his ass? I think he was stealing stuff he learned working for ONI.

I think he had a falling out with his handlers, and his widely observed paranoia was not as unfounded as you might think.

Remember the old '60s aphorism; "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you."

[Rmack]

Of course Ronnie later set up his own espionage department in the GO!




Imagine that!:coolwink:

[Rmack]

"Unfortunately there is so little data to illustrate his thelemic associations, but I agree his behaviour and development of Scn indicates that the cult was in fact a disguised left hand path magic cult."


Asagai, I think you nailed it there, bud.

[Moonchild]

Hmmm.....interesting posts here.

As regards Crowley.....in "wog-world" terms he was a classic case of a paranoid-schizophrenic, almost amusingly-so; the delusions of grandeur which he sought to dramatise via his soi-disant "wisdom"...."higher knowledge" etc.

But yet, he departed from this life as a pathetic bankrupt heroin-addict in a doss-house in Hastings UK (charitably described by some as a "boarding-house" or "old folks' home") his rent and drug-habit supported by any daft enough to take him seriously, such as Jack Parsons....but not LRH I would bet...:whistling:

And then, dear old LRH....for sure he made more bucks than AC, but what good did it do him? Would I trade places? Not for all the tea in China as the saying goes.

If the reports are to be believed from those that were close to him in the final days, Hubbard ...the man who wanted to save the world clocked-out as a raving-mad recluse frightened of his own shadow; not to mention the CIA, the demons, the "friends of Xenu" etc.

As with Crowley so with Hubbard I would gently suggest...:coolwink:...somehow the roof fell in on both of them.

[Rmack]

I concur, Moonchild.

Have you heard the reports that he had his messengers dress him (to a point) in the morning? And light his cigarettes, hold the ashtry, etc? What a control freak!

I imagine he was laughing his ass off on the inside. I wonder if he thinks it was worth it now, or if he thinks at all....

[Terril park]

Have you guys ever been in the Sea Org? I have, and I can tell you, the training is pure spook training. At least it was when I joined in the very early '80's. You ever do the "missionaires hat"?

Are you sure Hubbard just pulled all this stuff out of his ass? I think he was stealing stuff he learned working for ONI.

I think he had a falling out with his handlers, and his widely observed paranoia was not as unfounded as you might think.

Remember the old '60s aphorism; "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you."

What is ONI?

BTW the shore story that he was sent to break up Jack Parsons
OTO group is at odds with his recommending a Crowley book to read in 1952 in the PDC lectures.

[Dulloldfart]

Have you heard the reports that he had his messengers dress him (to a point) in the morning? And light his cigarettes, hold the ashtry, etc? What a control freak!


Let's see now. Which would a man prefer? Having the ashtray laying on the desk. Or being held by a fawning nubile hottie in white shorts and shirt tied up under her boobs, who would otherwise be waiting outside the door for an errand to run.

Hmmm. Tricky choice. Give me a moment....

Paul

[Terril park]

What is ONI?

BTW the shore story that he was sent to break up Jack Parsons
OTO group is at odds with his recommending a Crowley book to read in 1952 in the PDC lectures.

From PDC tape #18 (Dec 5, 1952)
"Now, he could simply say, "I have action." A magician - the magic cults of the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth centuries in the Middle East were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild in spots, but it's fascinating work in itself, and that's work written by Aleister Crowley, the late Aleister Crowley, my very good friend. And he did himself a splendid piece of aesthetics built around those magic cults. It's very interesting reading to get hold of a copy of a book, quite rare, but it can be obtained. the Master Therion, T-h-e-r-i-o-n, The Master Therion by Aleister Crowley. He signs himself "The Beast"; "The Mark of the Beast, 666." Very, very something or other."

This book was also known as " Magick in theory and practice."

[Rmack]

What is ONI?
BTW the shore story that he was sent to break up Jack Parsons
OTO group is at odds with his recommending a Crowley book to read in 1952 in the PDC lectures.


Office of Naval Intelligence

You're assuming that just because he was a Crowley fan, that he was chummy with other Thelemites. I've known a few myself, and I can tell you, they are a contentious bunch. It's actually part of their religion. Crowley wrote something in-I believe-the "Book of the Law" that says something like "as brothers, fight ye"

I don't think he would have any problem with screwing over Jack Parsons and still being a Crowley fan.

BTW, did you know that "Baphomet Lodge" of the OTO is still in existence today? I've been to a couple of their public events. The "Gnostic Mass" is a trip. My favorite part is the naked priestess. :p

[Rmack]

Let's see now. Which would a man prefer? Having the ashtray laying on the desk. Or being held by a fawning nubile hottie in white shorts and shirt tied up under her boobs, who would otherwise be waiting outside the door for an errand to run.

Hmmm. Tricky choice. Give me a moment....

Paul

LOL

[Rmack]

From PDC tape #18 (Dec 5, 1952)
"Now, he could simply say, "I have action." A magician - the magic cults of the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth centuries in the Middle East were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild in spots, but it's fascinating work in itself, and that's work written by Aleister Crowley, the late Aleister Crowley, my very good friend. And he did himself a splendid piece of aesthetics built around those magic cults. It's very interesting reading to get hold of a copy of a book, quite rare, but it can be obtained. the Master Therion, T-h-e-r-i-o-n, The Master Therion by Aleister Crowley. He signs himself "The Beast"; "The Mark of the Beast, 666." Very, very something or other."

This book was also known as " Magick in theory and practice."

Yeah, I've heard that lecture. He seems to change his mind about talking about it, and quickly moves on at that point. Perhaps he was remembering the instructions for a human sacrifice, recommending an intelligent male child as the victim that appears in that book. Oops!

His son claims that Hubbard believed "The Beast, 666" was an office of sorts, and it was his turn to be the most powerful being in the universe. He might have viewed Parsons as a rival to be neutralized. We may never know for sure if either Crowley or Hubbard where involved with British and American intel ops, as they are notoriously secretive about past operatives as well as present, including long dead ones.

[Terril park]

Office of Naval Intelligence

You're assuming that just because he was a Crowley fan, that he was chummy with other Thelemites. I've known a few myself, and I can tell you, they are a contentious bunch. It's actually part of their religion. Crowley wrote something in-I believe-the "Book of the Law" that says something like "as brothers, fight ye"

I don't think he would have any problem with screwing over Jack Parsons and still being a Crowley fan.

BTW, did you know that "Baphomet Lodge" of the OTO is still in existence today? I've been to a couple of their public events. The "Gnostic Mass" is a trip. My favorite part is the naked priestess. :p

You have NO idea how FZers quarrel.:)

There was a guy who contacted me, an OTO lodge master. He wanted to do scn to prepare him for Magick. Not an isolated case. He told of how SO
members in full uniform approached him wishing to buy all archives relating to LRH. In order to get " more bridge".

[Rmack]

You have NO idea how FZers quarrel.:)

There was a guy who contacted me, an OTO lodge master. He wanted to do scn to prepare him for Magick. Not an isolated case. He told of how SO
members in full uniform approached him wishing to buy all archives relating to LRH. In order to get " more bridge".

Could you elaborate? I don't quite know what you mean by "in order to get more bridge" Do you mean data to construct more Scientology levels?

BTW, which OTO lodge? Baphomet in LA?

[Terril park]

Could you elaborate? I don't quite know what you mean by "in order to get more bridge" Do you mean data to construct more Scientology levels?

BTW, which OTO lodge? Baphomet in LA?

That was the story. IMO it was about buying up the archives so that a recent
book by,..... someone well known who I've forgotten coulnd't publish details of
LRH and his connection to OTO etc. The latest book re Jack Parsons and rockets?

Whichever lodge had that data I guess. I didn't ask silly me. :(

[Rmack]

That was the story. IMO it was about buying up the archives so that a recent
book by,..... someone well known who I've forgotten coulnd't publish details of
LRH and his connection to OTO etc. The latest book re Jack Parsons and rockets?

Whichever lodge had that data I guess. I didn't ask silly me. :(

Yeah, I agree. They were no doubt trying to get document-able info out of public access.

Was it in the LA area?

[Veda]

You have NO idea how FZers quarrel.:)

There was a guy who contacted me, an OTO lodge master. He wanted to do scn to prepare him for Magick. Not an isolated case. He told of how SO
members in full uniform approached him wishing to buy all archives relating to LRH. In order to get " more bridge".

The alleged "Sea Org member incident-approaching to buy archives to get more Bridge" is a story that is 30/35 years old. And this OTO lodge master sure waited a long time to decide he wanted to "do Scientology." He must be pushing 90 by now.

Rmack,

There is so much misinformation, and so much dis-information on the topic of Crowley and Hubbard - almost all of the Hubbard mis/dis-information placed there by the "Church" of Scientology - that making some sense of it can be challenging.

Added to this are some in the Scientology "Freezone" who think that Crowley is fashionable (after all, Ron said he was "his very good friend," etc.), and besides Crowley is "cool."

Wouldn't recommend taking stories from either too seriously.

There's a fair amount of info on ESMB on this area.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=56310&postcount=804

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=79110&postcount=23

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=54751&postcount=46

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=56246&postcount=798

[Rmack]

The alleged "Sea Org member incident-approaching to buy archives to get more Bridge" is a story that is 30/35 years old. And this OTO lodge master sure waited a long time to decide he wanted to "do Scientology." He must be pushing 90 by now.

Rmack,

There is so much misinformation, and so much dis-information on the topic of Crowley and Hubbard - almost all of the Hubbard mis/dis-information placed there by the "Church" of Scientology - that making some sense of it can be challenging.

Added to this are some in the Scientology "Freezone" who think that Crowley is fashionable (after all, Ron said he was "his very good friend," etc.), and besides Crowley is "cool."

Wouldn't recommend taking stories from either too seriously.

There's a fair amount of info on ESMB on this area.

Thank you, Veda, but I do appreciate the dis-information angle. I know people who are into Crowley primarily. Dispite the black magic trappings, most of them seemed to be ethical people. But, then again, most Scientologists were too, so I don't trust the Guru from judging his Chelas. Over all, the thelemites are far more honest with themselves. They only deceive themselves on major issues. The rondroids seem to have no problem with baldface lies on every level.

The whole field is mental "smoke and mirrors". I can assure you that I take all of it with "a grain of salt".

[Rmack]

The alleged "Sea Org member incident-approaching to buy archives to get more Bridge" is a story that is 30/35 years old. And this OTO lodge master sure waited a long time to decide he wanted to "do Scientology." He must be pushing 90 by now.

Rmack,

There is so much misinformation, and so much dis-information on the topic of Crowley and Hubbard - almost all of the Hubbard mis/dis-information placed there by the "Church" of Scientology - that making some sense of it can be challenging.

Added to this are some in the Scientology "Freezone" who think that Crowley is fashionable (after all, Ron said he was "his very good friend," etc.), and besides Crowley is "cool."

Wouldn't recommend taking stories from either too seriously.

There's a fair amount of info on ESMB on this area.

Thank you, Veda, but I do appreciate the dis-information angle. I know people who are into Crowley primarily. Dispite the black magic trappings, most of them seemed to be ethical people. But then again, most Scientologists were to, so I don't trust the Guru from judging his Chelas. Over all, the thelemites are far more honest with themselves. They only deceive themselves on major issues. The rondroids seem to have no problem with baldface lies on every level.

The whole field is mental "smoke and mirrors". I can assure you that I take all of it with "a grain of salt".

[Zinjifar]

Don't forget to toss the pinch of salt over your left shoulder :)

Zinj

[Rmack]

hehehe, oh yeah, that gets in the devils eyes!

[Zinjifar]

What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in
We will not speak but stand inside the rain
And listen to the thunder shouting
I am, I am, I am, I am

Zinj

[Leon]

From PDC tape #18 (Dec 5, 1952)
"Now, he could simply say, "I have action." A magician - the magic cults of the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth centuries in the Middle East were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild in spots, but it's fascinating work in itself, and that's work written by Aleister Crowley, the late Aleister Crowley, my very good friend. And he did himself a splendid piece of aesthetics built around those magic cults. It's very interesting reading to get hold of a copy of a book, quite rare, but it can be obtained. the Master Therion, T-h-e-r-i-o-n, The Master Therion by Aleister Crowley. He signs himself "The Beast"; "The Mark of the Beast, 666." Very, very something or other."

This book was also known as " Magick in theory and practice."


There can be no doubt that he was strongly influenced by Crowley.
Interesting though that he also violated some of Crowley's basic principles, for example, in The Master Therion that you refer to - Theorem 24 reads

"Every man has an indefeasible right to be what he is."

(Illustration: To insist that any one else shall comply with one's own standards is to outrage, not only him, but oneself, since both parties are equally born of necessity.)


One would wish he had followed his mentor more diligently.

[Zinjifar]

There can be no doubt that he was strongly influenced by Crowley.
Interesting though that he also violated some of Crowley's basic principles, for example, in The Master Therion that you refer to - Theorem 24 reads

"Every man has an indefeasible right to be what he is."

(Illustration: To insist that any one else shall comply with one's own standards is to outrage, not only him, but oneself, since both parties are equally born of necessity.)


One would wish he had followed his mentor more diligently.

Crowley didn't follow his 'principle' all that closely either, when it came to exploiting his 'acolytes'

Ron was just better at post-war-marketing
They're *both* dead.

Zinj

[Rmack]

Crowley didn't follow his 'principle' all that closely either, when it came to exploiting his 'acolytes'

Ron was just better at post-war-marketing
They're *both* dead.

Zinj


Nice one, Zinj:clap:

[Terril park]

The alleged "Sea Org member incident-approaching to buy archives to get more Bridge" is a story that is 30/35 years old. And this OTO lodge master sure waited a long time to decide he wanted to "do Scientology." He must be pushing 90 by now.


Well this may have been attempted before. I relate communication I had with a former OTO lodge holder a couple of years ago.

[Veda]

Well this may have been attempted before. I relate communication I had with a former OTO lodge holder a couple of years ago.

You're saying that 30+ years after the alleged incident of Sea Org members, in full uniform, being sent to obtain OTO materials, it happened again - and with full Sea Org uniforms again?

Me thinketh you're being hoisted on your own petard.

Suggest that you avoid the complicated stuff and stick to the 'How to win friends and influence people'-tech.

[Rmack]

Well this may have been attempted before. I relate communication I had with a former OTO lodge holder a couple of years ago.

Terril,

That link takes me to the "freezone". Where do I go from there?