Excellent TV Show

[Alan]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=529204584324100028

Great video of LRH and history of Dianetics and Scio.
________

[Romuva]

Alan,did you know most of the people in that video? Was just curious?

I think what enjoy about alot of ex-Sci's is the type of personalities
they are.Here included.It's been therapeutic for me personally.

[Alan]

Yes, I knew all of them very well.
________

[Alan]

I hope the people who view this video will observe the end product of the Scio Tech LRH ran on himself and others.

It is utterly glaringly obvious that he reversed processed himself into a dot.

It is also glaringly obvious that he took many of the great discoveries made down through time by others and turned these into a destructive technologies.

Thus making the knowledge found to appear unworkable and fraudulant.

Alan
________

[OHTEEATE]

Alan, I saw the film, and it wasn't running properly so I found and read the transcript. What I would like to know from you, is does this account agree with your own personal observations and conversations with LRH? Do you think all these people are credible? I know Guy Eltringham, and he didn't say those kinds of things about the old man. I know the Robinsons, Donna and Robbie, who spent hundreds of hours with him, and don't portray him that way(although most would say he had quite a temper). I met LRH briefly and can't say my contact would constitute "knowing" him. He was pleasant eonough to me, and to my brother and sister. I would just like to know your views on this subject, do you think he had so much bad auditing that he was driven around the bend? This leads back to the GPMs, and maybe he never figured out how to run that correctly. The tapes of him auditing Mary Sue on GPMs sound really nutty. Mike

[Alan]

The show was incredibly accurate. If anything much more damaging material was left out.

Hanna who I expected to be bitter gave an amazing factual report. Her description of the throwing overboard of Julia Salmon during the original Class VIII course was exactly as I witnessed.

Ray and Pam Kemp were loyal to LRH - even though LRH betrayed them again and again.

Virginia Downsborough held back much of what she knew - as she was LRH's nurse in Las Palmas. I had to clean her up after that, but she was shattered by what she witnessed.

Jerry Armstrong was the biggest surprise for me - he looked truly great - what he has gone through has had a positive effect on him......he was such a wimp on the ship.

You must realize each person that appeared on that show lived under the fear of retribution and lawsuit, consequently they only reported what could be verified.

The data about LRH the film producer was even toned down....I have had to clean up several people who were on the photo shoots........LRH was screaming at those people almost all the time.




I would just like to know your views on this subject, do you think he had so much bad auditing that he was driven around the bend?

This leads back to the GPMs, and maybe he never figured out how to run that correctly.

The tapes of him auditing Mary Sue on GPMs sound really nutty. Mike



There were years of no auditing.

Then he could not trust his auditors......most could not confront him committing overts.....if he got them off the auditor would go victim to him.

Even when he got auditing he would not go to those earlier times in his life.

He would mis-direct the auditor away from the hot areas.

Yes, he failed miserably at undoing the GPMs.

GPM auditing requires an utterly safe environment as it activates the oppositions in life and until found and discharged - your life and PT will go under attack.

Too many unflat GPM packages would make one very paranoid, as you are activating your opponents.

That is what happened to him in June 1964.

Alan
________

[tarbaby]

Hanna who I expected to be bitter gave an amazing factual report.

Hana is one of the sweetest, most sensible people I have ever met. We twinned on the RPF. Her presence shone like a ray of sunshine into that dark and oppressive world. She and her husband Jerry Whitfield have since helped hundreds of cultists recover. Her media appearences are always packed with facts.

Dennis

[Div6]

Hanna who I expected to be bitter gave an amazing factual report.


She appeared the most composed and credible...





Virginia Downsborough held back much of what she knew - as she was LRH's nurse in Las Palmas. I had to clean her up after that, but she was shattered by what she witnessed.


One day my friend, you will need to 'tell all'. I realize it might betray confidences, but there is a greater good in time, place, form and event.....
This was during the time LRH was taking 'pinks and greys' and researching OT III.

[Romuva]

Jerry and Hana Whitfield were there to help me get out of COS.I am one
of those ex-cultists

Jerry, I talked to and Hana responded in correspondence.

I can't thank both of them enough.Everything Scientology writes about
Jerry is total lies,in my opinion.I spoke to Jerry.He's a normal,rational person.

[The Oracle]

I watched the video and laughed until my guts hurt. It was hilarious.

Now isn't it amazing people are still going clear and buying service 20 years after he hasn't been around to hypnotize anyone?

I figure the regges have been trained on this now in every Org and Mission and that is how this Scientology is still going on!

[Bea Kiddo]

I watched it this morning but did not have time to respond as I had to go to work then.

Thank you for this link, Alan. For me it is quite enlightening.

It is a sad tale in its own way. But the thing is that the mistakes of a person are his and only his own. But in this case, his mistakes have created massive havoc in people and that is what is ignored. As you know, Alan, unwrapping people from a telephone pole that they were never around in the first place... You know what I mean?

I wasn't born a Scientologist. I didnt chose the religion. It chose my mother. Or however you want to phrase. Actually, ironically, my dad got my mom into the church! Then he got declared and she left and joined the Sea Org. Wow.

But seeing this film just fuels my anger I guess. Dang it I wasted alot of life on this.

Now, I would not say the whole religion is a hoax. I would say that the Sea Org is corrupt and off the rails and needs reform. Had it not been for insane 2D rules, would I have gone the path I did? How can you tell me I cannot have children and then Comm Ev me if I disagree? Then send me out as a DB when THEY are the ones suppressing dynamics? It's just insane.

And then for LRH to have turned out like that? Oh my goodness what a mess. Whats the big deal about pulling overts on him? I would have done it without compunction. I am the type that would say "well, if you found it to be true, would have to work on you too.". I never cared about status stuff and so could pull anything out of anyone (and I did audit some...).

I am rambling. This account is enlightening and also frustrating. Every time I learn more about his past and his lies, the more angry I am about it all.

Thank you Alan, for enlightening us!

[The Oracle]

"Now, I would not say the whole religion is a hoax. I would say that the Sea Org is corrupt and off the rails and needs reform."

I agree with you Whatever. I didn't agree with 2/3rds of the package.
I never agreed with the "justice system" although I noticed the ethics formulas worked like magick.

I was not interested in the green books or managment, but that has never been my bag, business and business management. I can't see myself running a business.

The auditing I received I was very very happy with.

I think the Sea Org needs reform as well. But perhaps DM is running off the stable datumn, "It's O.K. to step out of the law. The law is abberrated". ???? Could be.

I am fascinated by a person who wholly surrenders their will to another. Not only a fatal mistake in self improvment groups and religions, but in a marriages and gangs too.

It seems that some people in the video were suggesting they did that up to a point. That is totally unreal to me.

But when you grow in the midst of it that is another story. It's just the only platform to stand on.

Whatever Hubbard did or did not do, and I find some of his tricks hilarious, the tradition to wholly surrender yourself still goes on in the Sea Org.

It amazed me when I was there, I had never seen anything like it before, having been raised in a Celtic Environment in the early stages where it was everybodies duty to wholly rebel and never surrender and never get punished.

I used to wonder why grown adults would think they had the right to punish other people because they were wearing a uniform bought in Hollywood, and why other adults would permit it!

I really think the uniforms keyed people into something I didn't understand.

Well, I was just probably in the wrong crowd.

Anyway, I hereby declare that it is totally O.K. to step outside of the Scientology "justice system", because it is abberrated.

In fact, every "justice system" on this planet is abberrated.

[Alan]

Chuck Beatty drew my attention to the Video. Thanks should go to him! :)

[Veda]

I watched the video and laughed until my guts hurt. It was hilarious.

Now isn't it amazing people are still going clear and buying service 20 years after he hasn't been around to hypnotize anyone?

I figure the regges have been trained on this now in every Org and Mission and that is how this Scientology is still going on!

You watched the video and laughed until your guts hurt?

You found it to be hilarious?

Would you mind elaborating upon that a little bit further?

[RolandRB]

I hope the people who view this video will observe the end product of the Scio Tech LRH ran on himself and others.

It is utterly glaringly obvious that he reversed processed himself into a dot.

It is also glaringly obvious that he took many of the great discoveries made down through time by others and turned these into a destructive technologies.

Thus making the knowledge found to appear unworkable and fraudulant.

Alan


So what makes you think it worked in the first place? I've been a member, as you know, and I've received auditing and I thought it was the most boring and useless waste of time that I could ever conceive of.

[Alan]

So what makes you think it worked in the first place? I've been a member, as you know, and I've received auditing and I thought it was the most boring and useless waste of time that I could ever conceive of.

Sure Roland!

You went into session once, went exterior, saw too much, shit your pants and have been running and ridiculing ever since.

Boring! Oh! My!

The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary defines boredom as: The state or quality of being wearied or irritated by dullness; the condition of having one's interest extinguished.


My words:

The truth of the matter is that boredom is a masking emotion.

It is the sensation one experiences after one has masked something unwanted by using mental techniques such as: ridicule, forgetting, suppression, stupefying, oppression, avoidance, making nothing of, making less of, pretending, denial, lying, obscuring, and not wanting to know.

A physical form of masking is the use of drugs or alcohol. This causes masking by the introduction of suppressants, stimulants, or other types of physical distractions.

When one experiences boredom what one is really experiencing is the pressures contained in the self-suppression of past pain, fears, anguish, agony, heartbreak, failure, abuse, and a whole litany of Red Zone experiences.

The pressure of the suppressed fear, anguish, agony and pain is threatening to come to view and overwhelm him.

Any area of boredom on a case is a red flag that denotes huge area of past fear, pain, anguish, agony and turmoil.

Processors and supervisors should be very, very alert to boredom, and students or clients saying the training or processing is boring.

What the client or student is really saying is:

"Danger! Danger! You are approaching an area of extreme turmoil, anguish, agony and pain.? ? ?Let me out of here; you are approaching one of my life-time's painful areas of existence and I have decided I don't want to know anything about this ever again."

When a person is bored with life, what he's really saying is: "I'm in deep, deep agony, pain and anguish, but I can't confront it and I must run away."

Boredom is a form and indicator of psychic dishonesty.

Boredom is in actuality the emotion connected to a continuous PROBLEM caused by colliding with a counter-effort to what you are doing.

BOREDOM is most often caused by the conflict of your applying the conscious effort of increasing your awareness, knowledge and getting better by positively following your purpose line, which includes studying, learning, coaching, training or processing


---> colliding with <---

an unconscious past hidden agenda counter-effort to be unaware, hide or forget or avoid areas of extreme turmoil, anguish, agony and pain.:melodramatic:

[Veda]

The show was incredibly accurate. If anything much more damaging material was left out.

Hanna who I expected to be bitter gave an amazing factual report. Her description of the throwing overboard of Julia Salmon during the original Class VIII course was exactly as I witnessed.

Ray and Pam Kemp were loyal to LRH - even though LRH betrayed them again and again.

Virginia Downsborough held back much of what she knew - as she was LRH's nurse in Las Palmas. I had to clean her up after that, but she was shattered by what she witnessed.

Jerry Armstrong was the biggest surprise for me - he looked truly great - what he has gone through has had a positive effect on him......he was such a wimp on the ship.

You must realize each person that appeared on that show lived under the fear of retribution and lawsuit, consequently they only reported what could be verified.

The data about LRH the film producer was even toned down....I have had to clean up several people who were on the photo shoots........LRH was screaming at those people almost all the time.

There were years of no auditing.

Then he could not trust his auditors......most could not confront him committing overts.....if he got them off the auditor would go victim to him.

Even when he got auditing he would not go to those earlier times in his life.

He would mis-direct the auditor away from the hot areas.

Yes, he failed miserably at undoing the GPMs.

GPM auditing requires an utterly safe environment as it activates the oppositions in life and until found and discharged - your life and PT will go under attack.

Too many unflat GPM packages would make one very paranoid, as you are activating your opponents.

That is what happened to him in June 1964.

Alan

In the video, Hana Eltringham Whitfield decribed an incident, involving a four year old boy, that had been mentioned in the first chapter of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?', many years earlier. In 'Messiah or Madman?', a pseudonym was used at the child's mother's insistence. At the time, the mother was fearful of reprisals from Scientology.

Hana:

"He [Hubbard] put this 4 1/2 year old little boy, Derek Green, into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container. It's wet and it's full of water and sea weed... it smells bad... but Derek was sitting up on the chain in this place on his own in the dark for two days and two nights. He was not allowed to go to the potty. He had to go in the chain locker on his own, soiling himself... he was given food. I never went near the chain locker while he was in there, but people heard him crying. The sheer total brutality. That's child abuse."

It was startling to hear that incident described again.

I thought the 'Secret Lives' program was sobering; those interviewed struck me as being extremely credible.

[Alan]

Veda, here is a transcript of David Mayo's history with LRH. It pretty much verifies what Hanna said:

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/bfm/interviews/mayo.htm

[OHTEEATE]

Alan, Thanks. Read it all. My one previous run in with David Mayo was on the aft well deck during a storm, when I was checking the lashings on his motorcycle, which was tied up and tarped with several others. He told me to get my hands off his bike. Ok, asshole, I thought, you're an officer, so I'll defer to your asshole order. That was my only comm cycle ever with him . Yes sir, was what came out of my mouth. His punishment was having to put up with L. Ron Hubbard for another 9 years. I left less than 3 months later, having seen enough of the products and insanity to know the Sea Org, at the time, was way off. Like an idiot, after OT 8 and Class IV, I thought I could make it in the SO, and make a difference by becoming a Class IX. 4 months later, I had seen enough. Same old stuff. Same crazy policies. RPF. Impossible schedules. Screaming multi-layered micro management with no ARC/KRC. I call it asshole management. It's a bit like Romans vs Jews. Do what you are told, Jew, or you get crucified. Yes sir(asshole). Mike

[Romuva]

I did auditing too only to find I couldn't go back to the auditor I originally
had because he blew due to ethics.My success story should of been
"Dude,where's my auditor?"...It's another example of many where Scientology
is alot of bullshit and a absolute reality."It's this" and "It just works"
and you didn't get this and apply this right...on and on.
Maybe it's just alot of bullshit and people really want to believe it
works and they like the certainty and confidence they get because
they think they have the answers.In reality,there's question as to
whether they really do or not.I feel alot of the terminology that simplifies
alot of lifes complexities is not a good thing.You can't have absolute certainty
in something that you're not really sure of.I'm concerned with the lack
questioning and critical analysis scientologists have.To me,that's not a
good example of "philosophy" or intelectualism.Both are important and
shouldn't be marginalized or dismissed.Philosophies and religions should
be questioned like anything else.

I can't say to this day what it is exactly auditing is ,whether it is imagined
or simply a therapeutic way to simply feel better for a while.Because
eventually it wore off after a while.In my opinion ,it wasn't worth the money
I spent on it.In my opinion,it's a psuedo-science and still there's not
enough proof or evidence to explain what is going on with auditing.

I have questions about LRH and his mental state.Alot of who he was should
be looked at when reviewing and questioning Scientology.I dismiss the
idea that somehow Scientology is separate from LRH and his personality.
I have questions about some of the manipulation and control Scietologists
exert in life situations in order to "handle" a problem or difficulty.The emulation
of Hubbard and fascination of him by scientologists,what is there more
to say about this?

and still the very nature of Scientology:The idea that one man predominantly
came up with most of the ideas and needed to start a group of followers
is nothing more than a cult.

What's sad about Scientology is I feel in the beginning there were people
like Alan and others that really wanted to help people (I'm not really sure
if I completely agree on how they went about it) were pushed out
by LRH and one by one ,anybody who might of been able to research,
question and criticize ,who knows? maybe create something positive from it
were eliminated.

This is no accident,in my opinion this all goes back to LRH and the type
of person he was.

hey,just my opinion but I just see alot of insanity and contradictions with Scientology.

[Alan]

Romuva, your observations are quite valid.

Most of the "old timers" knew what we were in for.....as most of us knew we were nutty as fruit cakes.......

The early days allowed for evolution - crazy behavior - sane behavior.....most people are fighting themselves......fighting their own evil identities......fighting their own areas of hatred.

As these areas became unsubmerged - you could then inspect them.....with "honesty" you could often erase them, or at least get a handle on them.

It took a safe environment.....to allow this to happen.......it also took a lot of toughness, not to take it personally.

It took teamwork, often it was your friends that helped you through some of these "horror unsubmergings",......that is how it was up until June, 1964.....
that was when the Saturday Evening Post came out with the article "You can Be a Boo Hoo", the Victorian Gov began to ban Scio and the Berners started to discover the study tech....LRH took it personally.

Gone was the safe space, gone were the co-discoveries, gone was a friendly LRH, gone were the self-determined processors. It took a long time to shut it all down.

But, as far as I'm concerned it was too late - there were too many of us who would continue the evolution.

Those who stuck around actually were getting a fabulous education in "evil" (evil; is live spelled in reverse, or anti-live = become enslaved) and how not to do things.

No matter what has gone on the evolution will continue.

Just as aircraft have evolved from certain, unviable deathtraps to todays jumbo viable jet liners - so too will education, training and how to run the processes of life.

Does processing work? Does breathing work? Breathing is a process.

Alan

[Romuva]

Alan,I liked reading your response and your view of looking at it.


I know this will turn a little off-topic but I think one thing that really concerns
me about Scientology and auditing is the way certain or should we say
very traumatic life experiences are dealt with.

If you are holocaust or gulag survivor,war veteran,mollestation or abuse,
grew up in intense hardship(there are many other examples).In my opinion,expereiences like these and certain problems people have, can't be taken lightly and devoid or neglected of compassion or understanding.

The impression I get when you get into scientology and auditing is that
these experiences almost become irrelavent and that there is somehow
a grander scheme or higher exsistence,whatever you choose to call
it.The simplicity of auditing out the negative charge and not being able
to understand,sympathize,empathize or have any compassion for the
people that you are auditing.

It just seems like ..Problem:Holocaust survivor..solution 100 hrs of auditing
preclear has positive results...move onto next case
Problem: Mollestation case ...solution 70 hrs of auditing ..preclear had
better results....needs more auditing..etc..move on
Problem:9/11 survivor...56 hrs of auditting..incredible results...

Meanwhile,did I ever learn anything about this person's life ,who they were
,what kind of person,hobbies,interests...Did I build any kind of a relationship
with this person? Did I really understand what happened to them and
tried to gain an understanding from my expereince counseling this person.
Did I understand that a person who survived something like the Holocaust
was a very serious problem or experience somebody had.
basically treat peoples hardships and negative hardships with respect?

It just seems like :Learn the tech,apply the tech,get results.

very robotic and assembly like.and yet the guy that was creator of most
of this stuff was a total mess himself.Screaming and yelling at people,
throwing tantrums and doing all sorts of irrational shit to people.

I mean isn't there something fundementally wrong with this picture?
That this man (LRH) is supposed to be creating sanity and enlightenment.
Maybe it's just me.

My question is,did Hubbard really not have any compassion or concern
for people or their lives,difficulties,expereinces?Was he incapable
or lacked compassion or feelings altogether and this was influenced in
the auditing.

The idea that "Well I don't give really give a shit if somebody shot your
whole family and burned your house down but hey!,this person seems
to be doing better and how much money did we get for this case?"

sorry that's probably not fair.and again Alan I don't mean this in any way
to insult you because you seem like a decent person to me.I don't feel
you did this as an auditor.

The whole thing just seems not right with regards to understanding people
and being compassionate.Maybe ,it's just me but there is something
to genuinely helping people(and the argument of not asking for anything
in exchange.)

I only know this because I have done it and I have seen the happy
people I have helped and the fact I never asked for an exchange in
return.Something just can be said for that.being charitable and self-sacrificing for others benefit.

I just always wondered what was going in that mind of LRH's.What was
the guy really thinking.To me it's a scary proposition.

Maybe not to others.


I know this type of discussion has been thrown around a million times.Still ,I see some
validity to it.

[tarbaby]

... that is how it was up until June, 1964.....
that was when the Saturday Evening Post came out with the article "You can Be a Boo Hoo", the Victorian Gov began to ban Scio and the Berners started to discover the study tech

"Are you now or have been connected to CHARLES BERNER!? That was the question Otto screamed at us in the late 60's on the first SO mission to LA. He stood us in 2 lines against the walls in the basement, flung the dagger into the ceiling, flashed a .45 in a holster inside his jacket and declared "You are now under Sea Org control!!" I should have realized I was in with some pretty wacked out people right then.

So Alan, tell us who the Berners are and what they did to make them the target of "Elrong's Rath." Heh.

Dennis

[wazn]

I am fascinated by a person who wholly surrenders their will to another. Not only a fatal mistake in self improvment groups and religions, but in a marriages and gangs too.

It seems that some people in the video were suggesting they did that up to a point. That is totally unreal to me.


I will answer a little to this, as it is something I have been struggling with up until recently...

When I got into scn I was a young, very optimistic and spiritual in nature person who had gone through some pretty negative stuff, had made some poor choices and was lacking in self love and faith. IMO, a vunerable combination. Scientology seemed to be a road out. So, I put myself on that path and put everything into it. I would not have said I was surrendering my will, but rather that I was committing to the path of truth and personal freedom.

However... I see now that by way of the scientology studying, training and drilling- my will, my decision making, etc. was surrendered to coaches, auditors, seniors, tech, policy, source, etc. And, the more surrendered (or taken) the less I had with which to make a stand, so-to-speak.

[Alan]

"Are you now or have been connected to CHARLES BERNER!? That was the question Otto screamed at us in the late 60's on the first SO mission to LA. He stood us in 2 lines against the walls in the basement, flung the dagger into the ceiling, flashed a .45 in a holster inside his jacket and declared "You are now under Sea Org control!!" I should have realized I was in with some pretty wacked out people right then.

So Alan, tell us who the Berners are and what they did to make them the target of "Elrong's Rath." Heh.

Dennis

In June 1964, the Berner's came to England to share the discoveries they had made to do with study.

The night before they did their presentation to LRH several of us and the Berner's had dinner together at the Forrest Row Hotel.

During the dinner Chuck and Ava told us about the Misunderstood Word Tech, the indicators of study, such as skipped gradients, absence of mass, lack of familiarity, etc., they had discovered and developed and the successes they had had with it.

They were both school teachers in Orange County - Chuck may have been a Professor.

Anyway they have their meeting with LRH and they were on a high.

That evening LRH does a GPM lecture, at the beginning he introduces Ava and Chuck as returning SHSBC graduates.....halfway through he suddenly switches to talking about how he discovered the study tech......he goes on and on about his discoveries....the lecture ends.....he never mentions anything about what Ava or Chuck had done.

They were devastated.

They were then asked to leave Saint Hill.

Feeling utterly betrayed - they returned to California - before long they began to be harrassed - they then start their own subject.....Abilitism.

Alan

O J Roos Story about Berner and Abilitism..

ENEMIES: He could be ferocious. July '68 saw a very special Mission, personally and at length briefed by LRH. Myself I/C and Jerry McDonald (very tough ex US Marine) assistant.

To go find and weed out Maffia Connections in Scn LA and to gather
together and collectively cave in the Charles Berner group by
completely playing out OT 3. (We hired a Hollywood Studio,
set the whole thing up, got the people in and ran the whole OT
3 story.)

"Running the OT 3 story" means that we had the whole scene set up like
Las Palmas, with mountains, the sound of storms, thunder and the
ocean, darkness, flashes of lightning, large Sea org signs and emblems
to key people in, etc.

For the necessary equipment we had to hire a theatre.

Jerry and I were dressed in Sea Org Officer Uniforms (which were new
and apparently very frightening in those early days of the S.O.) with
our peak caps, standing centre stage in the light. I then, with
"thunderous voice", had to throw lines from the Clearing Course
materials into the public in order to cave them in.

The above is what we were sent out to do and which is what we did.

There was no other orders, nor were there any other actions connected to the above.

Jerry and I left LA immediately after completion of the above to return to the Flag ship in Melilla, North Africa.

SPECIAL ORDERS

LA staff helped in setting up the Studio, etc. There was no order to
commit burglary ("third-rate" or otherwise), there was no burglary
planned, no staff hired for such purpose, no burglary committed, no
E/Meters stolen, or a rest thrashed, at least not to my knowledge. If
Jerry stated this, either he had special orders separate from mine, or
a misunderstood, or yet another reason to have thought and said thls.

Even if Jerry had separate orders to the above effect, they were not
carried out during this particular Mission, nor have I ever heard them
to have been carried out at any other time.

Did LRH ask me and Jerry McDonald to murder someone in LA? He
certainly did not ask me. If he ever asked Jerry, I knew
nothing about it. I may add that I would not have believed it if
somebody had told me. In answer to the question if I would be willing
to commit such a deed, I can only say, no, under no condition!

Did I persuade LRH not to order the murder? No, as he never ordered
it.

Did I recruit students to break in? No, the only thing LA helpers did
was to help set up the Theatre.

[OHTEEATE]

Wow, Alan. and Dennis. I had never heard this, or any hint of it before this. It is another revelation , and makes it worth the time spent reading and contributing on message boards such as this one. To think of all the time I spent studying Study Tech, and never hearing the name Berner, it takes me aback some. Whoa. I also begin to realize why all the effort to keep Scientologists from reading the writings of you two, as what you know is so devastating. Is this in any of the books on Scn? Like Messiah or Madman? What a revelation of true charcater to blatantly steal the tech. This must have been one of those moments that set your Doubt in stone...

[tarbaby]

However... I see now that by way of the scientology studying, training and drilling- my will, my decision making, etc. was surrendered to coaches, auditors, seniors, tech, policy, source, etc. And, the more surrendered (or taken) the less I had with which to make a stand, so-to-speak.

This is turning over locus of control to others. It becomes habitual over time.

Dennis

[The Oracle]

Dear Wazn, Many people are indoctrinated into the surrender of control. Even in our society, when a policeman pulls you over in your car, you are expected to surrender will. Women are expected to OBEY and it is even part of the marriage commands. Children are bossed around as if they have no civil rights whatsoever. From the Mafia to the Marines , people move under another's will. There is a wide differencd between co oridnate and surrender.

I think it starts long before a person gets involved in Scientology. Who the heck wanted to sit through Grammar school?

Who the heck wants to pay the I.R.S.?

Who the heck wants to labor?

The entire society is a slave society.

The thing about Scientology is, it causes one to pause and notice these things, and consider self determinism.

Unfortuantely that is where people began to wake up a bit and protest, and the Scientology get's targeted as the first point of rebellion.

But this doesn't just happen in Scientology, as a people's we evolve.

People had to wake up to make slavery illegle in this country, and give women the right to vote.

[Romuva]

Dear Wazn, Many people are indoctrinated into the surrender of control. Even in our society, when a policeman pulls you over in your car, you are expected to surrender will. Women are expected to OBEY and it is even part of the marriage commands. Children are bossed around as if they have no civil rights whatsoever. From the Mafia to the Marines , people move under another's will. There is a wide differencd between co oridnate and surrender.

I think it starts long before a person gets involved in Scientology. Who the heck wanted to sit through Grammar school?

Who the heck wants to pay the I.R.S.?

Who the heck wants to labor?

The entire society is a slave society.

The thing about Scientology is, it causes one to pause and notice these things, and consider self determinism.

Unfortuantely that is where people began to wake up a bit and protest, and the Scientology get's targeted as the first point of rebellion.

But this doesn't just happen in Scientology, as a people's we evolve.

People had to wake up to make slavery illegle in this country, and give women the right to vote.

Just curious Illusioness,which scientology are you talking about?
COS Scientology or Freezone(Scientology light)?

[The Oracle]

Unfortunatly, when we say "Scientology" we are all talking about something different. Many people, in their minds, lump that up with the Sea Org, Church addresses / real estate, people they have known who were in Scientology, L.R.H., their mother and father, some ethics officer they bumped into, some food they ate, some teacher they hated, the intergalactic police force, the Spanish Inquisition and, witch burnings, and a lot of other madness.

So let me make clear what I mean when I say Scientology.

I simply mean the processes that people benefit from, the only part of it that is of true value. That includes the ethics formulas.

Whether it is used in a piece of real estate owned by DM or a back alley in Russia, it's the same. The workable methods, that which is the magick.

All the rest, including the justice policies and admin, uniforms and dictators, real estate, desks ,and telephones, police, slaves and "titles" of magnificence, licenses granted to do this or that or go free, is just someone's idea of the way things could be.

Nobody needs be issued a license to be intelligent or go free.

To suggest that, in itself, is just another form of slavery.


We can step beyond those issues with the Freezone and the people that have pulled out from under the royal mess LOTS of humans have made of the Church.

But I don't see the Freezone as "all light Scientology". Because some of the humans who made a mess of it in the Church have dribbled over and are creating the same spills in the Freezone.

It's not the books, the writings, the buildings and telephones and stories that made it the mess.

It's the PEOPLE

No point in BLAME and finger pointing, it's always been THE PEOPLE everywhere that made things what they are. In the White House, in the board of education, in the Catholic Church.

The point is, if there is some benefit to be had from any place including a simple grocery store, just get your lettuce and move on. If there isn't, go somewhere and find something that you do want and need that will bring you pleasure and a better state of living.

[Zinjifar]

So let me make cleat what I mean when I say Scientology.

I simply mean the processes that people benefit from, the only part of it that is of true value. That includes the ethics formulas.


This is what's called 'bootstrapping' and 'circular logic'.

*You* choose to 'define' Scientology as what's of 'value' and, therefore, by *definition*, Scientology is 'of value'.

How could anyone object to something 'of value'?
and
If it's *not* 'of value', well, it's *Not Scientology*!!!

However, you also sneak in a 'personal preference' for the 'Ethics Formulas' as *obviously* of 'value' (because they're of value to you) while ignoring the whole objectionable edifice of 'Scientology Ethics'.

Zinj

[Terril park]

The magic One

"Nobody needs be issued a license to be intelligent or go free."

BB
Or anything else they want to be.

Should be shouted from rooftops literal and virtual. :)

[Zinjifar]

The magic One

"Nobody needs be issued a license to be intelligent or go free."

BB
Or anything else they want to be.

Should be shouted from rooftops literal and virtual. :)

If someone were to 'want to be' a surgeon or an airline pilot or a bus driver...

I'd prefer they had a license.

Zinj

[The Oracle]

Well, Hubbard didn't pay anybody for his bridge or await an invitation for his OT levels.

To KNOW MORE one had to live more, or read more.

If you didn't do all of the living yourself, chances are you read some books or information those who did live more passed on.

All Hubbard did was pass on information from his livingness.

Nobody had to read it or buy it or believe it.

Find out all the mysteries to life yourself, the twilight zone, the grey areas, the truths, but one needn't complain about the discoveries others left behind.

Most people do not even want to pick up a book these days.

Instead of living themselves they turn on the television and watch other people live.

I just happen to know there is only so much living I can do at a time, at this time, and I rely on reports and discoveries from others.

It's just information others pass down.

Scientology is just information someone else passed down.

If it is useful to you great.

If it isn't great.

I am not alone in being interested in other peoples ideas about the universe.

Every book is just report, of what was, what is, what could possibly be.

[Romuva]

Illusioness,take this into account.

L.RonHubbard was a writer of science-fiction.He published Dianetics
in a sci-fi magazine.

He then spent years ,spending hours working on something that I guess
he felt would revolutionize the world but nobody really knew Hubbard well
enough to know what he was thinking and what state his mind was in.
He worked hours around the clock but for some reason he bought a
English estate.

Read the accounts here.Then he sailed a ship to different parts of the
world ,declared himself a naval "Commodore" and wore a naval uniform.

At this point he was getting pretty weird with some of the stuff he was
doing,There are stories to confirm this.

He produced and recorded really horrible music

At the end of his life he was in seclusion and very reclusive.

I agree with the argument that LRH lived and probably did the interests
he wanted but that's exactly the point.

People should live their lives and be happy and pursue interests that they
feel improve their lives.

Not spend their exsistence on a treadmill...spending hours in a room with
another person or by themselves and spending $$$$$$ just because
a science-fiction writer told them if they didn't they would be damned
for eternity.Or they have convinced themselves(or did they ? was it really
someone else?) that they are achieving the ultimate state of awareness
and have learned all the universal truths.

Explain to me how that is living? Living would be to make up your mind
you felt auditing was doing all sorts of great things for you and you
were choosing this by your own choice.

If people really do this then fine.

but no mistake LRH might of lived but the staff member,SO or person
who is paying thousands of dollars for auditing and courses?
How is this person living a fulfilled life?

You might as well take 50-500,000 dollars and go to vegas because that's
what your doing with Scientology if you're paying for it.

You're going to die(like everyone else) and you're going know or not know
then.

So if you really want to live,live. Spend your money and time on what
makes you happy or fulfilled.

I used to know people that spent 20-50 dollars an hour on guitar,saxophone,drum and bass lessons
or karate lessons,sports or whatever.
but they only spent that money because they really felt they were really getting something
out of what they were doing.They were happy because they were pursuing their dreams
and living a life.
that's the way Scientology should be.You should be really getting something out of it if
you're paying alot of money for it and spending alot of time on it.

Not because a science fiction writer wrote thousands of pages in books.

[Veda]

Well, as of this writing, I've received no response from my request for elaboration on the below comment.


I watched the video and laughed until my guts hurt. It was hilarious.

-snip-



So, attempting to return to the topic of this thread - the 'Secret Lives' program - I'm curious. Did any one else find this program to be "hilarious."

To me it was sobering, to say the least, and those interviewed were intelligent and credible.

IMO, there is sometimes a strong emotion of denial about unpleasant facts re. Hubbard and Hubbard-era (Pre RTC) Scientology, and understanding those impulses towards denial, might provide insights into how to overcome those impulses.

I still think that there is "good stuff" to be salvaged from the subject, but not without also confronting, and understanding, the "bad stuff." And much of the "bad stuff" was placed there by Hubbard himself, particularly from the mid 1960s onward.

[The Oracle]

Dear Romuva,

I agree the music was terrible. I didn't buy the album or play it.

Reading other people's accounts will not change what I experienced.

I benefited by it and I admit it.

Sure there are pitfalls , "rights" are concepts. If you don't back them up they might not exist!

You cannot force a man's right's upon him, people have the right to be slaves too!

There are plenty of people that got in, got what was valuable to them, and got out. It wasn't a bad marriage for me. It isn't a bad marriage for me.

When I did hit a bump I crossed off that freeway.

Sorry, after the labor of my first son I just decided I had suffered enough.

I understand other people suffered, I don't discount that.

But I am not them and they are not me and we are not "all one" because we took leave of the buffet over there.

I did all my suffering before I got into Scientology.

I got into Scientology not to suffer, but because I was done with suffer.

And as soon as they put some suffer on me I just vanished from that game.

I am not on a loosing avenue, I am on a winning avenue.

Hubbard is not the only person I have read.

My goal is to have fun and I refuse to do anything else.

[Terril park]

The Illusioness.#

My goal is to have fun and I refuse to do anything else.

BB

I share that goal. Mostly what I do is fun.

[The Oracle]

And, Geeze, BB, If you can't have fun in London and the good old USofA it isn't going to happen for you anywhere. Ipods, cable T.V., swimming poools, jacuzzi's, Absynthe you can buy on the internet, EBay, casino's, list chat, the Soprano's, wine tasting, fast jet's to Hawaii, on and on and on.

There are plenty of people in many places of the world that could join the Sea Org and think they died and went to heaven!

My exchange? I'm a consumer. People need consumers right?

Just consider this: When you accept something from someone and you are happy about it, you have just helped them provide what is wanted and needed, and you have cause them to come up from non existance!

And, you know, people have the NERVE to suggest I don't benefit from the ethics conditions!

[Zinjifar]

And, Geeze, BB, If you can't have fun in London and the good old USofA it isn't going to happen for you anywhere. Ipods, cable T.V., swimming poools, jacuzzi's, Absynthe you can buy on the internet, EBay, casino's, list chat, the Soprano's, wine tasting, fast jet's to Hawaii, on and on and on.

There are plenty of people in many places of the world that could join the Sea Org and think they died and went to heaven!

And yet, the 'Ruin' Scientology needs to find to coerce new 'Raw Meat' into the grinder is almost *never* as bad as the shambles that Scientology 'produces' once it's 'applied'.

Go figure

Zinj

[The Oracle]

Well, here in the Americanas we are born with certain ideas. It's the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. The pursuit of happiness is guaranteed in writing.

Everyone on this list is having fun, it's just that what is fun to some isn't the same fun for everyone.

I tend to skip over the horror shows and fall into the comedy genre.

[OHTEEATE]

TI, You're right. $50 a week and food and bed is luxury to some people, and the Sea Org is increasingly turning to the former Soviet Union countries, Hungary, etc. for recruits. There are at least 75 Hungarians at Flag. More and more Russians. Less and less OT 8 public spoiled rotten Scientologists(whoops!)!!! Who, moi? Mike

[Veda]

Well, here in the Americanas we are born with certain ideas. It's the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. The pursuit of happiness is guaranteed in writing.

Everyone on this list is having fun, it's just that what is fun to some isn't the same fun for everyone.

I tend to skip over the horror shows and fall into the comedy genre.

I can't tell. Is the above a response to the below (link) post?

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=6505&postcount=36

How does a description of a four year old boy in a chain locker become knee-slapping fun? I don't get it.

That cute little magician with the disappearing wand is beginning to look like a poster boy for attention deficit disorder.

Oh well....

[The Oracle]

Veda,

Oh, I missed that this was a thread about a boy in a chain locker. Sorry about that!

About that, that was not O.K. at all.

Not funny at all. Very very sad and horrible.

I don't know what kind of people stood around and allowed that to happen, but I can assure you it was not me.

In that movie of L.R.H. where people are talking about some of the things they saw, and that elderly woman being pushed over board too, I just wandered what was wrong with them that they didn't do something about it.

That's why I am not in the Sea Org, I refused to contribute to these rituals of punishment.

But I thought this thread had gone onto information not culture.

I don't contribute to abuse on the forums either.

I don't permit abuse likewise.

I don't know why you would want to suggest me as someone crippled with attention deficite disorder, but if you really have issues with abuse then why bring it here to a forum?

I don't visit this forum so people can impose justice actions upon me through the internet, my being here is not an open license for abuse.

I will not dedicate any more of my time to defending myself from your accusations and attacks, neither work to repair the damage you attempt upon my reputation.

I understand what form your "fun" is taking on this forum, and it is a wide departure from mine.

I share some thoughts from Filbert that are worth considering:


Harmony

"Harmony is a musical term meaning that something else has been produced from chords and sounds. This is also called synergy, or synergism. It is when you add two things and get three instead of two. When you add two live things, like people in a marriage, you either get synergism or the opposite. Linear thinking and linear mathematics are of the physical universe and thusly highly degraded. It is a bad way to arrange or compute if you are dealing with anything alive. things that are alive should be treated, computed, and arranged exponentially. If you combine two things that are alive, like in a marriage, you are going to either get each contributing 75% and taking back 50% (disharmony) or each contributing 50% and taking back 75% (harmony). This works out perfectly with exponential math, but makes no sense with linear math. So, there is either harmony/synergy or disharmony/antipathy when you mix two live elements, whether those are notes or people.

It takes a bit if space, dignity, presence, and perspicacity to rise senior to the mechanics of existence, and declare, as a prime postulate: "I am going to have good luck, and live in harmony with myself, my fellows, the universes, the dynamics, and stay out of theta's way." A person would do something like that, only after they have come through the fundamental logic triangles, and realised that there is no point in being aberrated. This discovery is usually followed by the decision to no longer be aberrated.

Most people are actually aberrated because they figure that it is the only was to get sensation (which is the pay of this universe). The moment they realise that they can create their own sensations far in excess of what anybody could ever deliver to them on a via, then they rise above this particularly bad social habit of maintaining aberration on any dynamic for themselves.

Living a life based on harmony is more fruitful than one of disharmony and dissonance. Dissonance has its occasional uses, but those are rare".

[Romuva]

TI, You're right. $50 a week and food and bed is luxury to some people, and the Sea Org is increasingly turning to the former Soviet Union countries, Hungary, etc. for recruits. There are at least 75 Hungarians at Flag. More and more Russians. Less and less OT 8 public spoiled rotten Scientologists(whoops!)!!! Who, moi? Mike



There's some truth in that but I doubt alot of people in former soviet countries are getting involved with Scientology for the economic
opportunities they present.

Keep in mind ,Hungary like most of these countries just joined the European
Union and now have or soon will have the freedom to travel and work
in other EU countries.There are already something like 70-100,000
Polish and 30,000 people from baltics as well as Czechs in Ireland and
more people are traveling to places like the Netherlands,France,Spain
and Greece.

In Lithuania ,I know the average salary is something like 200-300lita(less
than 50 euros) but that is changing as people leave to find better jobs.

In Places like Russia,Belarus and Ukraine there is alot of poverty and not much
hope and it's a place for prime pickings.

Scientology,in alot of ways will suck people in the same way they always
did.

[The Oracle]

Romuva,

Average pay in Hungary today is equivelent to 250.00 U.S. dollars a month, and the prices of everything in Hungary are same as U.S., gasoline is higher.

Mexico, upper middle classed factory workers considered fortunate are making equivelent to 150.00 U.S. dollars a month.

Those are countries where people are managing to eat.

Sure, you tell these people they will get a U.S. citizenship, room and board and 50 to 75.00 a week and they will come long enough to get fluent with the language, and get their papers.

I think they are not told the Church will hold onto their papers though.

But when I was in the Sea Org they would figure it out and arrange a marriage, plan B.

People from communist China are spilling into Hungary as immigrants trying not to starve to death.

In China, you are only allowed to have one child, many do not want a girl and if it is born a girl abandonded at the hospital and shipped off to an orphanage, which, these places are just spilling out onto the street with little girls that have been abandonded.

We haven't even touched upon conditions in the middle east.

Yes, there are plenty of people who will have a better life and a better hope for the future joining the Sea Org.

And these are the people that are being recruited.

[Romuva]

Romuva,

Average pay in Hungary today is equivelent to 250.00 U.S. dollars a month, and the prices of everything in Hungary are same as U.S., gasoline is higher.

Mexico, upper middle classed factory workers considered fortunate are making equivelent to 150.00 U.S. dollars a month.

Those are countries where people are managing to eat.

Sure, you tell these people they will get a U.S. citizenship, room and board and 50 to 75.00 a week and they will come long enough to get fluent with the language, and get their papers.

I think they are not told the Church will hold onto their papers though.

But when I was in the Sea Org they would figure it out and arrange a marriage, plan B.

People from communist China are spilling into Hungary as immigrants trying not to starve to death.

In China, you are only allowed to have one child, many do not want a girl and if it is born a girl abandonded at the hospital and shipped off to an orphanage, which, these places are just spilling out onto the street with little girls that have been abandonded.

We haven't even touched upon conditions in the middle east.

Yes, there are plenty of people who will have a better life and a better hope for the future joining the Sea Org.

And these are the people that are being recruited.

Illusioness,what you mentioned ,wouldn't surprise me at all.
but it would have to be a long haul in the church for a visa or a chance
at citizenship...or maybe it wouldn't be.

Still ,a chance at American citizenship would probably be worth it
depending on who you were.

[The Oracle]

Romuva,

Not to get snide or negative, but this is what Helena Cobrin is doing when she is not sending out letters to people for copyright infringments. , B2 Visa's for new recruits.

Yes, they go to places where the people are in such a negative gain livingwise the Sea Org looks like freedom.

They take all of their documents like passports etc. so the person, well, all people in the Sea Org have to surrender their passports and visa's when coming in, the Church handles all of the legalities to keep them but does not give the documents to the person, they are witheld so the person actually cannot leave.

Once the person had been working for a few years and been put off for requests for their papers, they figure out they are owned by the Church and either A: Go Home. B:Get into a marriage and stick it out another few years for legal staus they can be in command over.

Tampa Saint Pete is full of spill over from the CofS bringing people here from other countries that made their way out of the Sea Org.

Hey, my ancestors were slaves to the British for 600 years, then they had to come here and build railroads and ride in patty wagons and work as slaves to the protestants and learn to read "Irish need not apply" signs.

Sometimes I wonder what our people would do that had to walk the roads before us, to see their great great etc etc grandchildren protesting about people's rights to practice religion or self improvment or "cult" or whatever you want to call it, of a person's choice. There was a time when these freedoms were not permitted and they were fought for hard.

And look at what we are doing with all of this freedom, inside the Church and out.

Only a few can celebrate, too few to mention.

[Veda]

Veda,

Oh, I missed that this was a thread about a boy in a chain locker. Sorry about that!

About that, that was not O.K. at all.

Not funny at all. Very very sad and horrible.

I don't know what kind of people stood around and allowed that to happen, but I can assure you it was not me.

In that movie of L.R.H. where people are talking about some of the things they saw, and that elderly woman being pushed over board too, I just wandered what was wrong with them that they didn't do something about it.

That's why I am not in the Sea Org, I refused to contribute to these rituals of punishment.

But I thought this thread had gone onto information not culture.

I don't contribute to abuse on the forums either.

I don't permit abuse likewise.

I don't know why you would want to suggest me as someone crippled with attention deficite disorder, but if you really have issues with abuse then why bring it here to a forum?

I don't visit this forum so people can impose justice actions upon me through the internet, my being here is not an open license for abuse.

I will not dedicate any more of my time to defending myself from your accusations and attacks, neither work to repair the damage you attempt upon my reputation.

I understand what form your "fun" is taking on this forum, and it is a wide departure from mine.

I share some thoughts from Filbert that are worth considering:


Harmony

"Harmony is a musical term meaning that something else has been produced from chords and sounds. This is also called synergy, or synergism. It is when you add two things and get three instead of two. When you add two live things, like people in a marriage, you either get synergism or the opposite. Linear thinking and linear mathematics are of the physical universe and thusly highly degraded. It is a bad way to arrange or compute if you are dealing with anything alive. things that are alive should be treated, computed, and arranged exponentially. If you combine two things that are alive, like in a marriage, you are going to either get each contributing 75% and taking back 50% (disharmony) or each contributing 50% and taking back 75% (harmony). This works out perfectly with exponential math, but makes no sense with linear math. So, there is either harmony/synergy or disharmony/antipathy when you mix two live elements, whether those are notes or people.

It takes a bit if space, dignity, presence, and perspicacity to rise senior to the mechanics of existence, and declare, as a prime postulate: "I am going to have good luck, and live in harmony with myself, my fellows, the universes, the dynamics, and stay out of theta's way." A person would do something like that, only after they have come through the fundamental logic triangles, and realised that there is no point in being aberrated. This discovery is usually followed by the decision to no longer be aberrated.

Most people are actually aberrated because they figure that it is the only was to get sensation (which is the pay of this universe). The moment they realise that they can create their own sensations far in excess of what anybody could ever deliver to them on a via, then they rise above this particularly bad social habit of maintaining aberration on any dynamic for themselves.

Living a life based on harmony is more fruitful than one of disharmony and dissonance. Dissonance has its occasional uses, but those are rare".

Firstly, I don't think that you have attention deficit disorder, however, in some ways, I do think that you sometimes encourage it, or something like it, in others.

Filbert? He was news and a novelty in the early 1980s. When he was in Scientology, he took a lot of notes, and re-cycled them into the book, 'Excalibur Revisited', that he, then, presented as being derived from the 'Akashic Records'. His assertion that Hubbard's 1938 'Excalibur' contained the secrets of the universe, and - in condensed form - contained what was, later, to become Hubbard's "Bridge," turned out to be incorrect.

'Excalibur Revisited' is still interesting, and has its place in Scientological history; however, last time I looked - a few years ago - Filbert's still selling the most dubious parts of Hubbard's wacky cosmology to people.

In any event...

Back to the 'Secret Lives' program, and people's reactions to it - which is really my only interest in this thread. Anyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, and to their reactions.

Why not just say, honestly, that you watched the 'Secret Lives' program, and saw serious and credible people saying seemingly unkind things about L. Ron Hubbard, the man to whom you feel you owe your sanity - by way of having done "OT 3," per your own account.

Why not, honestly, say that you didn't like seeing those people say those things, and that you emotively rejected it?

For once, I'd like to encounter a "Free Zone" person who was truly up front about his or her reverence for Hubbard. It would save *so* much time.

And, really, it would be OK.

[Bea Kiddo]

I must say (not to divert the thread) that the film really made me mad. I just feel like I wasted so much of my life in that. Now I am older, and I am way behind on things that I should have done 10 - 15 years ago. I am not concerned about myself though, I know I will be fine.

Its just the depth of lies and betrayal in the Sea Org, like it never ends. LRH was a liar and the upper guys are covering it up. Probably they will never make a biography, cause they won't be able to prove their lies.

And meanwhile, the place is set up so once your in, its so hard to get out. Constant brainwashing from inside, no access to internet. You don't get the view the whole thing and decide. You only see it from one side. It's a sad, sad thing.

I think my story (or any like mine) could be written, but not exactly as it is, more like altered to look like a fantasy (like the movie "Pan's Labrynth", which is an incredible movie), or to do as an analogy, or with symbolism in it. Not a direct tale, insinuations. And made into a book. That would be cool.

----

Seperately, I did audit Karen Russouw for a while there. In that, she mentioned about being a kid on the ship and how she was put into the chain locker. She really needed to have it run out properly. But, as you know, everything in the RPF (and the Sea Org pretty much for that matter) is sec checks and FPRD, not actual auditing to distimulate things, that would be case on post!). She also said she met DM when he was younger (14 or 15 or so) and said he was an asshole.

When her brother died, she was not allowed to go to the funeral. Nobody wanted her around. I think she saw things how they were and wasn't afraid to speak her mind about it. And nobody over there wants anyone but dedicated, mindless robots. :eek:

[Dulloldfart]

For once, I'd like to encounter a "Free Zone" person who was truly up front about his or her reverence for Hubbard. It would save *so* much time.



How about a FZ person who is upfront about both appreciating many of the things Hubbard put out, and also recognizing the failings and falsehoods?

Paul

[Alan]

How about a FZ person who is upfront about both appreciating many of the things Hubbard put out, and also recognizing the failings and falsehoods?

Paul

How about a Scio person who is upfront about both appreciating many of the things Hubbard put out, and also recognizing the failings and falsehoods?

Alan

[Veda]

How about a FZ person who is upfront about both appreciating many of the things Hubbard put out, and also recognizing the failings and falsehoods?

Paul

There's the "Free Zone," and there's the "Independent Field."

The Free Zone people, if they're willing to confide in you, will usually let you know that you'll only "make it" to "OT," if your "ruds are in" on LRH. They will also - often only privately - strongly emphasize the OT 3 story, Xenu, and every piece of Hubbardian significance they can find.

The Independent Field is different.

And, after all, there are the two categories on the Forum.

Free Zone and Ron's Orgs, and then the Independent Field.

I only meant the first category.

[Dulloldfart]

Thanks for explaining, Veda. I didn't think it was as black and white as that. It's a bit tricky putting shades of grey into different headings for posting categories.

I've been considering myself a FZer, even though I don't agree with the philosophy (http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Conservative) that the "Standard Tech" brigade try and adhere to.

Paul

[Voltaire's Child]

Veda wrote For once, I'd like to encounter a "Free Zone" person who was truly up front about his or her reverence for Hubbard. It would save *so* much time.

And, really, it would be OK.

Not if it wasn't what the person was feeling.

It sounds to me as if you've decided you know what Freezoners really feel and that anyone who does not confirm that is lying.

[Voltaire's Child]

How about a Scio person who is upfront about both appreciating many of the things Hubbard put out, and also recognizing the failings and falsehoods?

Alan

Oh, like me!! (waving wildly). Oh wait a minute, I'm one of the most detested people on forums...oh never mind....:eek:

[wazn]

This is turning over locus of control to others. It becomes habitual over time.

Dennis

It is also a very hard "habit" to change, by the very nature that you have been robbed of the things that would serve as foundational "building blocks" in taking back and maintaining your own locus of control. IMHO

[Veda]

Thanks for explaining, Veda. I didn't think it was as black and white as that. It's a bit tricky putting shades of grey into different headings for posting categories.

I've been considering myself a FZer, even though I don't agree with the philosophy (http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Conservative) that the "Standard Tech" brigade try and adhere to.

Paul

Well, the "Free Zone" of Captain Bill Robertson was retitled the "FreeZone" or the "FZ," and attempted to co-opt the rest of the "Independent Field."

So, in a way, there are shades of gray. Although, that "gray" - more than not - is regarded as an "outness," endured by the "Free Zone," in its attempt to absorb the "Independent Field."

From my experience, "Free Zone" people usually consider that they have a personal relationship with "Ron," much as Christians have a personal relationship with Christ - and, for them, that's the core definition of being "connected to Source."

"Independent Field" people tend not to think that way.

Of course, whenever generalizations are made, or things or people are put into categories, exceptions occur.

[Romuva]

Romuva,

Not to get snide or negative, but this is what Helena Cobrin is doing when she is not sending out letters to people for copyright infringments. , B2 Visa's for new recruits.

Yes, they go to places where the people are in such a negative gain livingwise the Sea Org looks like freedom.

They take all of their documents like passports etc. so the person, well, all people in the Sea Org have to surrender their passports and visa's when coming in, the Church handles all of the legalities to keep them but does not give the documents to the person, they are witheld so the person actually cannot leave.

Once the person had been working for a few years and been put off for requests for their papers, they figure out they are owned by the Church and either A: Go Home. B:Get into a marriage and stick it out another few years for legal staus they can be in command over.

Tampa Saint Pete is full of spill over from the CofS bringing people here from other countries that made their way out of the Sea Org.

Hey, my ancestors were slaves to the British for 600 years, then they had to come here and build railroads and ride in patty wagons and work as slaves to the protestants and learn to read "Irish need not apply" signs.

Sometimes I wonder what our people would do that had to walk the roads before us, to see their great great etc etc grandchildren protesting about people's rights to practice religion or self improvment or "cult" or whatever you want to call it, of a person's choice. There was a time when these freedoms were not permitted and they were fought for hard.

And look at what we are doing with all of this freedom, inside the Church and out.

Only a few can celebrate, too few to mention.

Illusioness,you're not being snide at all.I like having a discussion with you.

and yeah,persecution runs in my family as well as others here, I'm sure.
My great-grandfather escaped czarist Russia in 1903,My family was
sent to Siberia for owning private property in Lithuania.In the centuries of genocide in Lithuania,my family managed to survive like others.I don't bother
talking about it because I probably look like a sockpuppet here, as it is.
So why bother?

I just don't agree with the Sea Org and RPF and some of the other things
that COS has done /did.COS created gulag-type conditions right here in
America and for that they don't deserve the status of Church or a
religion.People have to understand when they use a term like "gulag".
RPF by American definition was a pretty close definition.Breaking peoples
wills and depravation on a different degree was the same.Whether somebody
dies of being Malnourished or disease or kills themself or natural causes..
does not matter.

The handling of Scientology critics is disgusting for a group that claims it's
a religion and a church in America,present day.This is only my humble opinion.

I enjoyed reading your responses and insights.

[apple]

It is good to see that Hana is looking well.

When I received auditing from her about a year befor she left, she did not look healthy. As someone getting auditing from her I could see that she was not focused in on the session. I wondered at that time why am I spending my hard earned money on this. It was much better when I co-audited.

Now after reading her affidavit and watching her clips, all falls into place. I am glad to see that she is now on a better path.

[xenusdad]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=529204584324100028

Great video of LRH and history of Dianetics and Scio.
________

Does anyone have another link to this? It's not working here :(

[phenomanon]

Thanks for bringing in this thread. I had not read any posts by the "Illusionist" before. Interesting.

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Does anyone have another link to this? It's not working here :(


Here is your link Xenusdad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCWRbgIkFJ8

[Sharone Stainforth]

Your link is that Hana has failed to reply, like many old timers it is all fine, as long as they are the one's not having to face the consequences, once they feel threatened, they shut down.

My observation is who is this stupid little girl from the 1960s that comes in here and turns everything around on it's head. Well, it's me,like it or not and I will not be shut down.

I pray for the day Scientology tries to take me to court for copyright or any other thing they think they can throw at me. Because do you know what, I will win, it will be the biggest win I ever got out of Scientology, co$ there weren't any others.

[phenomanon]

[QUOTE=Sharone Stainforth;756354]Your link is that Hana has failed to reply, like many old timers it is all fine, as long as they are the one's not having to face the consequences, once they feel threatened, they shut down.

Hana has more than made amends for any harm that she did to others, and I am certain that if a harm was brought to her attention that she had not addressed, she would take care of it.

So have I, an old timer, more than made amends for any harm that i caused another Scientologist.

I resent the generality that you used "many old timers". Name 'em. If you are referring to the M&M gang, so sayeth you.

The many old timers that I associated with went to the Press, went to the Police, picketed, got arrested, got beat up, got Fair Gamed, and have as yet to be "shut down".

ph