I protest

[Terril park]

The title of this thread I quote is insulting to the forum.

As a freezone scientologist, a fervid supporter and longtime protester
at anon protests against abuse I find this below insulting and demeaning to this forum. I'll just use this one statement for now referring to those who still wish to practice scientology.


"STILL SUPPORTING THE ATROCITIES OF THE CULT"

This is a lie and actually religious bigotry.

I quite rightly was slapped on the wrist by moderator/s for an intemporant post. This below though is a far more dangerous attack on those EX who still wish to follow the precepts of scientology.

I objected to being referred to as a" mental patient". So I made an intemporant post.

So Emma, didn't really want to put you or moderators on the spot. I know its hard, am a moderator.

So here you are.

ML





-----------
Default EX SCIENTOLOGISTS JUST AS FU*CKING WACKED OUT AS SCIENTOLOGISTS
SEE MINUTE: 2:45 LRH GREAT GRANDSON STATING:

A lot of Ex-Scientologists are just as fucking wacked out as Scientologists!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmq9nZnlnNQ


NOTES:

Meaning that those who have left the church but who still believe in the 'tech', that Scientology is a religion and or that Hubbard really wanted to help mankind....

These 'still believers' are STILL IN THE CULT. They are every bit JUST AS FUCKED UP as those still 'IN' in that they both believe that a Science Fiction Writer CREATED A VALID WORTHY RELIGION!!!!! And that a totally untested, unvalidated method of alledged mental therapy IS ACTUALLY SCIENTIFIC!!

Scientologists, Even amongst cults are a singular breed. So called Ex Scientologists that have left the Church, yet to the degree that they remain practicioners and believers, THEY ARE:

STILL IN A CULT

STILL PRACTICE A CULT

STILL UNDER THE EFFECTS AND CONTROL OF A CULT

STILL AS WACKED OUT AS ANY OTHER CULT MEMBER

STILL LEADING OTHERS INTO DANGER

STILL ROBBING OTHERS OF THEIR FREEDOM

STILL MIS LEADING AND MIS GUIDING THE NAIVE

STILL PART OF THE PR MACHINE OF THE CULT

STILL SUPPORTING THE ATROCITIES OF THE CULT

STILL LOST, ILL AND UNDERGOING REHABILITATION

ANYBODY WHO IS LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH CONCERNING SCIENTOLOGY MUST REALIZE THAT WHEN TALKING TO AN ADHERENT OF SCIENTOLOGY...

THAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY TALKING TO A MENTAL PATIENT. IF THE PATIENT ACTUALLY HAS BEGUN TO SEE THE CAUSE OF HIS ILLNESS.... HE IS THEN WORKING THROUGH THE TRAUMAS OF HIS ILLNESS... AND NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH A BONA FIDE EXPERT ON MIND CONTROL ISSUES AND THE SEVERITY OF DAMAGE IT HAS CAUSED HIM AND THAT HE IS STILL LIKELY UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF.

[uniquemand]

I agree, Terril. You can certainly protest that a person spoke a certain way, but I think it's healthy to see the attitudes of people who are attempting to paint all exes who have interest in scientology to whatever degree in a bad light. There is reason for concern, though, from the messages I've received from FreeZoners, that the atrocities of the Church will be perpetrated by the FZ, just as soon as they have the infrastructure to do so. Intolerance is rampant amongst FZers, just as it is amongst critics. Many FZers have only left the Church due to personality conflicts or political/organizational troubles with the Church, rather than due to any ethical concerns about scientology abuses or totalitarianism.

How do you feel about "Command Intention"?

[Terril park]

I agree, Terril. You can certainly protest that a person spoke a certain way, but I think it's healthy to see the attitudes of people who are attempting to paint all exes who have interest in scientology to whatever degree in a bad light. There is reason for concern, though, from the messages I've received from FreeZoners, that the atrocities of the Church will be perpetrated by the FZ, just as soon as they have the infrastructure to do so. Intolerance is rampant amongst FZers, just as it is amongst critics. Many FZers have only left the Church due to personality conflicts or political/organizational troubles with the Church, rather than due to any ethical concerns about scientology abuses or totalitarianism.

How do you feel about "Command Intention"?

Have to be somewhat circumspect here, " F**k command intention.

Please give data on how the FZ will carry on atrocities.

[uniquemand]

Give data? None exists.

It's speculation, based on "true believers". Green on White is LRH Policy. What provisions could the FZ make that they will not operate on Green on White (including whatever confidential issues there are) which would simply recreate the existing Church, although without it's PARTICULAR insanities, it would still project Hubbard's insanities.

[Terril park]

Give data? None exists.

It's speculation, based on "true believers". Green on White is LRH Policy. What provisions could the FZ make that they will not operate on Green on White (including whatever confidential issues there are) which would simply recreate the existing Church, although without it's PARTICULAR insanities, it would still project Hubbard's insanities.

Good questions.

Most green on white is good stuff. Simple organisation.

The FZ is not interested in confidential issues.

Screw the insanities. One is looking at enhancement.

[Div6]

I agree, Terril. You can certainly protest that a person spoke a certain way, but I think it's healthy to see the attitudes of people who are attempting to paint all exes who have interest in scientology to whatever degree in a bad light. There is reason for concern, though, from the messages I've received from FreeZoners, that the atrocities of the Church will be perpetrated by the FZ, just as soon as they have the infrastructure to do so. Intolerance is rampant amongst FZers, just as it is amongst critics. Many FZers have only left the Church due to personality conflicts or political/organizational troubles with the Church, rather than due to any ethical concerns about scientology abuses or totalitarianism.

How do you feel about "Command Intention"?

I would have to respectfully disagree. While certainly some FZers, Indies, etc fall in to that category, we are witnessing on ESMB, Xenu.net, ExSciKids.com and elsewhere quite a few people assimilating the data that management has hidden from the 'flock', and then speaking out. Some even adding to the list of atrocities committed. Scn. Inc. is run like a partitioned intelligence agency, with "entheta" partitioned off and available only on a 'need to know' basis. That is one reason boards like this are so valuable. A person can, by reading carefully, and ignoring the 'noise' begin to piece together the 'big picture'. And thereby, if they are still so inclined, do a more honest, complete 'doubt formula'.

Remember "hangup at doubt"? Its either 'false data' or 'pts'. For those still in, it is both. For those that are out, just look around. ESMB is in screaming aff.....

[KnightVision]

Well now here we finally have the utter truth of the matter!

Screw command intention. etc... We are free zone, we are goodie goodies. trust us. green on white yeah all good stuff.


BULLSHIT.


Want to go around and advertise the same insane crazy cult garbage that the church used on exes, continued to use, will always use, that you FZ'ers use all same. that makes scn all and lrh great and every body else is just some ferked up looser with a reactive mind and full of body cooties. Insane. Completely insane.

Insulted?????

PRACTICING THE CULT ARE YOU?

ONE SHOULD BE INSULTED.

THEY ARE INSULTING.

THEY ARE THEIR OWN EMBARESSEMENNT AND OWN PERSONAL INSULT.

PERIOD.

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

FORGET IT DUDE.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

If you wish it to be otherwise then start talking specifics. Let you get down to re examining and re defining scientology. And let's also start confronting the sexist and racial bigotry that is LRH YOUR SAVIOR. YOUR MAN OF THE HOUR. YOUR INSANE MONSTROUS CRIMINAL LEADER.

[uniquemand]

all FZers the same, LRH evil, all materials useless, KV is right, FZ is evil, a=a=a=a=a=a

[KnightVision]

all FZers the same, LRH evil, all materials useless, KV is right, FZ is evil, a=a=a=a=a=a

Did you see this or is it your normal ability to edit what you refuse to deal with:

If you wish it to be otherwise then start talking specifics. Let you get down to re examining and re defining scientology. And let's also start confronting the sexist and racial bigotry that is LRH YOUR SAVIOR. YOUR MAN OF THE HOUR. YOUR INSANE MONSTROUS CRIMINAL LEADER.

[uniquemand]

Lol. Start reading people's posts instead of attacking them.

A) LRH is not my savior.

B) He's not my man of the hour

C) He's not my leader.

Your assertions are based on your complete misunderstanding, which at this point seems deliberate.

[Mark A. Baker]

Give data? None exists.

It's speculation, based on "true believers". Green on White is LRH Policy. What provisions could the FZ make that they will not operate on Green on White (including whatever confidential issues there are) which would simply recreate the existing Church, although without it's PARTICULAR insanities, it would still project Hubbard's insanities.


Most freezoners have little interest in "green on white" and much less interest in "command intention". Some freezoners still maintain an interest in policy "tech" - although this varies by individual as to degree.

A VERY TINY few people who identify with the freezopne also are still rabid SO and consider themselves to be acting on orders per LRH. This latter group has virtually no support from the large majority of the freezone and frequently disrupt public boards in attempts to "make themselves right by making others wrong". One actual disadvantage of being on freezone boards is having to occasionally deal with one of these nuts. Fortunately, they are easily handled. Simply give them a few "unpleasant" facts about LRH and they blow rather than "confront entheta". :coolwink:

"True Believers" are a factor with any human belief system; witness what "freemarket capitalists" have done to the u.s. economy and what "evangelicals" have tried to do to the u.s. constitution. Even ESMB has had its share of "over the top" viewpoints expressed upon occasion.

I shouldn't worry too much about the freezone "morphing" into another mega-cult. Most of us simply aren't interested in creating a religious institution. "Do what you want" tends to be the operating rule among freezoners. The freezone simply exists as a broadly-based community for individuals interested in preserving the tech of scientology auditing for themselves and others.


Mark A. Baker

[uniquemand]

It is the nutcases which give the FZ a bad name. I hold Terril in respect, as well as yourself, as you exchange your viewpoints rather freely. It is the FZs toleration of the nutcase totalitarians which I'm concerned with. The problem, it appears to me, is that the nutcases are "on Hubbard's side", and this makes it very hard for FZers to figure out what to do about them, because FZers also want to appear to be on "Hubbard's side", because they are trying to MARKET THEIR RELIGION, and denial of the Founder is an untenable position.

This is why the FZ should go back to the drawing boards, and ADMIT this is what they are doing, instead of claiming they are "Standard Tech", which is the biggest illusion there ever was. It's waved around like a flag, to make people think there is a brand there, when really, each FZer practices his own "brand" based on his own understanding of what Scientology could or should be. If they did this honestly (a la "The Pilot"), I'd have NO PROBLEM with that. But to pretend otherwise smacks of the Church's deceptive practices, based on Hubbard's writings.

[KnightVision]

Lol. Start reading people's posts instead of attacking them.

A) LRH is not my savior.

B) He's not my man of the hour

C) He's not my leader.

Your assertions are based on your complete misunderstanding, which at this point seems deliberate.

If you wish it to be otherwise then start talking specifics. Let you get down to re examining and re defining scientology. And let's also start confronting the sexist and racial bigotry that is LRH YOUR SAVIOR. YOUR MAN OF THE HOUR. YOUR INSANE MONSTROUS CRIMINAL LEADER.

[uniquemand]

Whatever, robot.

The answers have all been given in the past, you've decided not to see them, or disagree with them, but I'm not your bitch. Either read the answers, or stop demanding them.

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html

[KnightVision]

It is the nutcases which give the FZ a bad name. I hold Terril in respect, as well as yourself, as you exchange your viewpoints rather freely. It is the FZs toleration of the nutcase totalitarians which I'm concerned with. The problem, it appears to me, is that the nutcases are "on Hubbard's side", and this makes it very hard for FZers to figure out what to do about them, because FZers also want to appear to be on "Hubbard's side", because they are trying to MARKET THEIR RELIGION, and denial of the Founder is an untenable position.

This is why the FZ should go back to the drawing boards, and ADMIT this is what they are doing, instead of claiming they are "Standard Tech", which is the biggest illusion there ever was. It's waved around like a flag, to make people think there is a brand there, when really, each FZer practices his own "brand" based on his own understanding of what Scientology could or should be. If they did this honestly (a la "The Pilot"), I'd have NO PROBLEM with that. But to pretend otherwise smacks of the Church's deceptive practices, based on Hubbard's writings.


Thank you. This is beautifully said. This is where I have a problem with the FZ stuff. I don't think all people are the same. But I do feel that they represent themselves that way as a whole.

Why do I care??

Cause I care about what happened to me. I care about what happened to most of the people on this board and or exies in general. And I care very much about anybody who has been lucky enough to have avoided the 'tech' as promoted and 'mostly' presented to the world... that they do not fall prey to it. That if there is anything at all which is worthy in it.... then it should be clearly defined as to what that is And why.

[KnightVision]

Whatever, robot.

The answers have all been given in the past, you've decided not to see them, or disagree with them, but I'm not your bitch. Either read the answers, or stop demanding them.

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html

Wow,

I actually had a higher opinion of you than that.


Were still in the early rounds, so you've got time to score better.:coolwink:

[uniquemand]

Gotcha, KV. Perhaps we have some points of agreement. If you'll promise to stop telling me my leader is LRH and that I'm a cultist, I'll stop attacking you. It's best we take each other as individuals, instead of as representatives of some other force.

[Panda Termint]

Terril, (I mistakenly posted this response on another similar thread)

I understand your protest and support your right to believe as you choose.

I don't know where some posters here got the idea that being a member of ESMB equated to being appointed the Belief-Police but that, nevertheless, seems to be the case.

Mindless opposition to other viewpoints is no substitute for tolerance and understanding of our differences.

Cheers, Panda

[Feral]

Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

KV, I do see you hold the cofs in contempt, your insulting way of attacking any adherents to Hubbards teachings make that plain. But what are you trying to achieve? Do you think you can help a single person with that rhetoric? Do you think a single scio will look at the board at your insults and say; "My God he is right!!, I am insane!"

Hell, KV I grew up a christian and believed I ate Jesus in a piece of bread on a sunday morning. I was also told a bloke built a boat that saved two of every animal on earth and that you could sit out your crimes in purgatory.

It is not for you or me to say whose religious beliefs are crazy, unless you want to start a cult of your own.

You practice extreme religious bigottry and kid us that it is a public service, and in your hypocracy you say;

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.

[Feral]

Double

[KnightVision]

Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

KV, I do see you hold the cofs in contempt, your insulting way of attacking any adherents to Hubbards teachings make that plain. But what are you trying to achieve? Do you think you can help a single person with that rhetoric? Do you think a single scio will look at the board at your insults and say; "My God he is right!!, I am insane!"

Hell, KV I grew up a christian and believed I ate Jesus in a piece of bread on a sunday morning. I was also told a bloke built a boat that saved two of every animal on earth and that you could sit out your crimes in purgatory.

It is not for you or me to say whose religious beliefs are crazy, unless you want to start a cult of your own.

You practice extreme religious bigottry and kid us that it is a public service, and in your hypocracy you say;

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.

It's your Hubbard who teaches you that you are insane; you agree and then proceed to fix yourself with the tech. So therefore Scn is practiced by the insane to become sane per Hubbard, other wise there would be no reason for it.

This is the basic belief of the religion that you eschew. It's not I who have decided that for you, look to your dear Hubbard for that.

You gladly jump all over the cos for being bigots and stopping criticism of themselves.....

Oh but here it's different right? Cause you decided it's so? Good. I've decided otherwise.

I don't serve OSA. You've said many things on this board that OSA will use too show how 'silly' the board is. So What??

I have had plenty of agreement with my viewpoints and yes there are quite a few folks here who also find the blatantly generalized promotion of Scn as harmless... outside of the Co$... to be just as insulting as that which you are telling me, I am saying, is.

Not all Ex's come to this board straight out of an org... all fragile like... In fact many Ex's find their way here many years after leaving. I have heard them react in disgust at how 'pro scn' so many members here were... And want to puke that the FZ is here... but they too have to learn to deal with it.

Are trying to create a very antiseptic board... but for what side of the view point?

[Carmel]

The title of this thread I quote is insulting to the forum.
<snip>
......I find this below insulting and demeaning to this forum. I'll just use this one statement for now referring to those who still wish to practice scientology.


"STILL SUPPORTING THE ATROCITIES OF THE CULT"

This is a lie and actually religious bigotry.
<snip>



Lol. Start reading people's posts instead of attacking them.

A) LRH is not my savior.

B) He's not my man of the hour

C) He's not my leader.

Your assertions are based on your complete misunderstanding, which at this point seems deliberate.


<snip>
The answers have all been given in the past, you've decided not to see them, or disagree with them............<snip>



Terril, <snip>
I understand your protest and support your right to believe as you choose.

I don't know where some posters here got the idea that being a member of ESMB equated to being appointed the Belief-Police but that, nevertheless, seems to be the case.

Mindless opposition to other viewpoints is no substitute for tolerance and understanding of our differences.

Cheers, Panda


Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

KV, I do see you hold the cofs in contempt, your insulting way of attacking any adherents to Hubbards teachings make that plain. But what are you trying to achieve? Do you think you can help a single person with that rhetoric? Do you think a single scio will look at the board at your insults and say; "My God he is right!!, I am insane!"

Hell, KV I grew up a christian and believed I ate Jesus in a piece of bread on a sunday morning. I was also told a bloke built a boat that saved two of every animal on earth and that you could sit out your crimes in purgatory.

It is not for you or me to say whose religious beliefs are crazy, unless you want to start a cult of your own.

You practice extreme religious bigottry and kid us that it is a public service, and in your hypocracy you say;

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.

I understand your protest Terril - I too find the title of the thread you refer to as very insulting.

I'm also in total agreement with all of the above - all of it!

[KnightVision]

It's your Hubbard who teaches you that you are insane; you agree and then proceed to fix yourself with the tech. So therefore Scn is practiced by the insane to become sane per Hubbard, other wise there would be no reason for it.

This is the basic belief of the religion that you eschew. It's not I who have decided that for you, look to your dear Hubbard for that.

You gladly jump all over the cos for being bigots and stopping criticism of themselves.....

Oh but here it's different right? Cause you decided it's so? Good. I've decided otherwise.

I don't serve OSA. You've said many things on this board that OSA will use too show how 'silly' the board is. So What??

I have had plenty of agreement with my viewpoints and yes there are quite a few folks here who also find the blatantly generalized promotion of Scn as harmless... outside of the Co$... to be just as insulting as that which you are telling me, I am saying, is.

Not all Ex's come to this board straight out of an org... all fragile like... In fact many Ex's find their way here many years after leaving. I have heard them react in disgust at how 'pro scn' so many members here were... And want to puke that the FZ is here... but they too have to learn to deal with it.

Are trying to create a very antiseptic board... but for what side of the view point?

I so agree with everything you have written here!! I find what those guys are saying as so insulting!!!

Agree! Agree!

And I too love and agree that they disagree and have the right to express themselves and say things that Insult me and so many others who have worked so long and so hard to show them the truth.

[Feral]

[QUOTE=KnightVision;169896]It's your Hubbard who teaches you that you are insane; you agree and then proceed to fix yourself with the tech.

He is no more my Hubbard than he is yours, don't assign attitudes and beliefs to me


I have had plenty of agreement with my viewpoints and yes there are quite a few folks here who also find the blatantly generalized promotion of Scn as harmless... outside of the Co$... to be just as insulting as that which you are telling me, I am saying, is.


I don't care who agrees with you, you are spewing insults, hate and bigotry.


Not all Ex's come to this board straight out of an org... all fragile like... In fact many Ex's find their way here many years after leaving. I have heard them react in disgust at how 'pro scn' so many members here were... And want to puke that the FZ is here... but they too have to learn to deal with it


No, but some do, and those are the ones I offer my help to.


Are trying to create a very antiseptic board... but for what side of the view point?

No. I call it being helpful and getting along. I am not "pro" the cofs or the freezone but I respect the rights of others to follow their beliefs even if I disagree.

I want to provide a factual and helpful balanced overview or critique of the cofs that creates an opportunity for scios to evaluate their devotion to the church.

Again, what are you trying to achieve?

[Sir Facer]

<snip>
And I too love and agree that they disagree and have the right to express themselves and say things that Insult me and so many others who have worked so long and so hard to show them the truth.

Hi K.V.,
I can't actually see where you have been insulted, Infact you may need to re-read some of the titles you place on this board example: EX-Scientologists being as Fu**en wacked as Scientologists etc, isn't that insulting as this is an "Ex-Scientologists board" - Yes we are free to express our selves but is that kind of insult "ex-pressing ones self"? or someone who just wants to stir shit? From the response I see you have gotten K.V I dont see the barbed wire as I can see in some of your comments here, as you know this board isn't about slicing each other up, its about truths and offlaoding and maybe even helping a matter that went so wildly wrong, what are your real intentions on the board?
We are on this board allready, so have allready seen the truths we need to see, obviously or we would not be here and we too are working hard on this board to expose truth.
I understand a lot of us here have experienced this & that, But I also understand the whole subject matter to begin with, meaning I've been in and I am also out, But I am not saying that the whole of the information in SCN is entirely ineffective. It can't be as it still exists and there is truth in everything that does exist. If there wasn't you would not be here......

[KnightVision]

Hi K.V.,
I can't actually see where you have been insulted, Infact you may need to re-read some of the titles you place on this board example: EX-Scientologists being as Fu**en wacked as Scientologists etc, isn't that insulting as this is an "Ex-Scientologists board" - Yes we are free to express our selves but is that kind of insult "ex-pressing ones self"? or someone who just wants to stir shit? From the response I see you have gotten K.V I dont see the barbed wire as I can see in some of your comments here, as you know this board isn't about slicing each other up, its about truths and offlaoding and maybe even helping a matter that went so wildly wrong, what are your real intentions on the board?
We are on this board allready, so have allready seen the truths we need to see, obviously or we would not be here and we too are working hard on this board to expose truth.
I understand a lot of us here have experienced this & that, But I also understand the whole subject matter to begin with, meaning I've been in and I am also out, But I am not saying that the whole of the information in SCN is entirely ineffective. It can't be as it still exists and there is truth in everything that does exist. If there wasn't you would not be here......

get a life dude. boring.

[Feral]

get a life dude. boring.

Get a clue. Insulting comments like this do not even make sense!


There are rules to posting on this board. You, in violating them have managed to offend half a dozen people very recently, if your days here aren't numbered I'd be very surprised.

Maybe you should take the time to read the forum rules.

Before you go I will point out that your enforced and invalidating style of arguing without offering any actual facts or data would qualify you for a very senior position in the upper strata of the cofs.

Think about it.

[MarkWI]

Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

KV, I do see you hold the cofs in contempt, your insulting way of attacking any adherents to Hubbards teachings make that plain. But what are you trying to achieve? Do you think you can help a single person with that rhetoric? Do you think a single scio will look at the board at your insults and say; "My God he is right!!, I am insane!"

Hell, KV I grew up a christian and believed I ate Jesus in a piece of bread on a sunday morning. I was also told a bloke built a boat that saved two of every animal on earth and that you could sit out your crimes in purgatory.

It is not for you or me to say whose religious beliefs are crazy, unless you want to start a cult of your own.

You practice extreme religious bigottry and kid us that it is a public service, and in your hypocracy you say;

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.

^^^^^^^ :thumbsup: ^^^^^^^

KnightVision, by being untolerant and accusing people for their beliefs you are doing the Chrch of $cientology a favour, and I wonder if you are doing it on purpose.

[degraded being]

^^^^^^^ :thumbsup: ^^^^^^^

KnightVision, by being untolerant and accusing people for their beliefs you are doing the Chrch of $cientology a favour, and I wonder if you are doing it on purpose.


I'm not, not anymore.

[KnightVision]

KnightVision, by being untolerant and accusing people for their beliefs you are doing the Chrch of $cientology a favour, and I wonder if you are doing it on purpose.

Mark,

by being untolerant and accusing people for their beliefs you are doing the Chrch of $cientology a favour, and I wonder if you are doing it on purpose.

[KnightVision]

Mark,

by being untolerant and accusing people for their beliefs you are doing the Chrch of $cientology a favour, and I wonder if you are doing it on purpose.


^^^^^^^ :thumbsup: ^^^^^^^

[Feral]

What are you doing?

[KnightVision]

What are you doing?

Communicating.

[Feral]

To who?

[Emma]

Jesus KV, WTF got into you?

If ESMB isn't the right board for you, I suggest you go find one that is more suitable.

Here we challenge people's beliefs, we don't slag off on anyone or intimidate anyone.

Consider yourself warned.

[scooter]

:dontfeedtrolls:

[alex]

Give data? None exists.

It's speculation, based on "true believers". Green on White is LRH Policy. What provisions could the FZ make that they will not operate on Green on White (including whatever confidential issues there are) which would simply recreate the existing Church, although without it's PARTICULAR insanities, it would still project Hubbard's insanities.

I've never heard of confidential green on white....and links or references you can point me at?

I thought that all the confidential "marching orders" were in the form of flag orders and such...

[Soul of Ginnungagab]

Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

... snip ...

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.
Now he isn't giving the critics a bad name. He is pointing at something that the critics (well, only some of the critics I am sure) are doing themselves. Saying insulting remarks like the line above: "SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE." is, apart from being an insulting remark and also a silly one, just an expression of an opinion (in some cases a belief). You could call it a critical remark, but not a real critique. The critics are much better off by pointing at actual cases, like harassment cases or abusement cases, than they are by saying some broad sentences that don't really tell anything but insulting people. It is understandable if someone needs to get some air by uttering sentences of that kind, it might even help a person getting his/her own mind cleared of some shadows. But that is a different matter.

[Mark A. Baker]

It is the nutcases which give the FZ a bad name.

Couldn't agree more. :)



I hold Terril in respect, as well as yourself, as you exchange your viewpoints rather freely.

I thank you for that. Let me assure you though, neither Terril or I are unique in this. We just happen to post more openly as practicing scientologists. Many freezoners, like many ESMBers still prefer to be somewhat "sub rosa" in their public expressions.




It is the FZs toleration of the nutcase totalitarians which I'm concerned with. The problem, it appears to me, is that the nutcases are "on Hubbard's side", and this makes it very hard for FZers to figure out what to do about them, because FZers also want to appear to be on "Hubbard's side", because they are trying to MARKET THEIR RELIGION, and denial of the Founder is an untenable position.

Here is where I think you assume too much. Many freezoners aren't especially tied to Hubbard. Many are. We try to respect our differences, whether they are with regard to policy, tech, "command intention", or whatever.

As to "tolerating nutcases" what would you have done?

On the one hand, practically speaking, there is NO CENTRAL FREEZONE ORGANIZATION which exists "to put ethics in" (yahoo! :happydance: ). However, that also means there is no way to "suppress nutcases", even IF that was a "good" thing.

Just as important, one principle that is universally accepted in the freezone by all but the most extreme rondroids is an individual's right to free speech. In accepting that principle that means we, as freezoners, also accept the right of extreme rondroids to act like complete loonies and bring further discredit not only to themselves but more generally to the freezone as perceived by non-members. That is, we all get lumped together by the rest of you without consideration as to whether that represents sound logic.

Ah well! Even that jewish kid had his cross to bear. :bigcry:



This is why the FZ should go back to the drawing boards, and ADMIT this is what they are doing, instead of claiming they are "Standard Tech", which is the biggest illusion there ever was. It's waved around like a flag, to make people think there is a brand there, when really, each FZer practices his own "brand" based on his own understanding of what Scientology could or should be. If they did this honestly (a la "The Pilot"), I'd have NO PROBLEM with that. But to pretend otherwise smacks of the Church's deceptive practices, based on Hubbard's writings.

A. not all the freezone claims to practice standard tech.

B. many freezoners ARE in fact practitioners of standard tech.

C. standard tech evolved over the 30 odd years that Hubbard et al evolved the practice of scientology. Many of the "differences in tech" among freezone practitioners reflect the differences in standard tech as it was developed and as individuals were trained to be auditors.

For reasons above not all differences in freezone practice necessarily represent deviations from "standard tech". Nor does getting auditing from a freezone auditor necessarily mean access to standard tech.

Frankly, we're not that organized and most of us are fine with that, although a leeeetle more coordination might be nice. :)


Mark A. Baker

[Carnaubawax]

My position on this is:

CofS - dangerous crackpots.

FZ - (so far) harmless crackpots.

[Mark A. Baker]

My position on this is:

CofS - dangerous crackpots.

FZ - (so far) harmless crackpots.


Humanity - crackpots of varying degrees of harmfulness. :)


Mark A. Baker

[KnightVision]

Humanity - crackpots of varying degrees of harmfulness. :)


Mark A. Baker

Guess you missed the Mother Theresa Special...

[KnightVision]

The Protest went down yesterday. It was against the Co$ and Scientology.

[Voltaire's Child]

Give data? None exists.

It's speculation, based on "true believers". Green on White is LRH Policy. What provisions could the FZ make that they will not operate on Green on White (including whatever confidential issues there are) which would simply recreate the existing Church, although without it's PARTICULAR insanities, it would still project Hubbard's insanities.

So far, the Freezone has NOT committed ANY atrocities whatsoever and it's been around for decades. So right there, that's an indication.

But as I said elsewhere, I'm all for keeping indie Scientology (my own term) as a grass roots movement, loose knit and not so official and not corporate. I believe that so doing would enable the FZ to continue their very long proven track record of being abuse-free.

[Thrak]

Terril,

I get your protest, I agree.

KV, I do see you hold the cofs in contempt, your insulting way of attacking any adherents to Hubbards teachings make that plain. But what are you trying to achieve? Do you think you can help a single person with that rhetoric? Do you think a single scio will look at the board at your insults and say; "My God he is right!!, I am insane!"

Hell, KV I grew up a christian and believed I ate Jesus in a piece of bread on a sunday morning. I was also told a bloke built a boat that saved two of every animal on earth and that you could sit out your crimes in purgatory.

It is not for you or me to say whose religious beliefs are crazy, unless you want to start a cult of your own.

You practice extreme religious bigottry and kid us that it is a public service, and in your hypocracy you say;

SCN AND BIGOTS ARE THE ONE WHO WISHES TO STOP SUCH COMM.

SCN IS PRACTICED BY THE INSANE.

You are giving critics a bad name. OSA could not have put a better poster on the board to make us look silly if it had tried.

I couldn't agree more. Some of the posts lately have been beyond useless. Who is the target audience? It's become like a pretend newspaper here. People believe what they believe and if they change their beliefs it will happen in it's own time. Scientology is just another cult! All religions start as cults with charismatic leaders, and a belief that the master's teachings are the only way to salvation. And all cults probably have some truth with a lot of bullshit mixed in. It's the truth that grabs people and the lies that make it dangerous. scn just has the added gimmick of an e-meter. But some keep insisting just how good hubbard really was. Good at being bad I mean. Like he was THE master hypnotist and his every word was carefully plotted to make you lose all self control. A true expert because once it was alleged he did a correspondence course in hypnotism. Pretty convincing. Look at Christianity, look at Judaism, look at the people who beat their heads against the wailing wall and the people who bathe in water with dead bodies in it because of their faith. Talk about brainwashed. But no force or attack will change anyone's mind but usually just make their convictions that much stronger. The more I hear these viscous statements the more I get the feeling there must be some sort of self hatred for being had. scn is a menace to society. Dismantle the organization but if people chose to sift through the rubble for useful bits let 'em. I didn't think I'd ever agree with Terril but if his intentions are truly good and people are happy with the results, more power to him.

[KnightVision]

I couldn't agree more. Some of the posts lately have been beyond useless. Who is the target audience? It's become like a pretend newspaper here. -snip-

Perhaps here, because freezoners as a rule have already endured a great deal of scientology mind control from the Cult, Inc or listening to hub lectures.

But to the vast majority of the worlds populations.... they can relate, do agree or are open to any form of criticism of Scientology... It is not automatically assumed that because there are people who practice it under Cult, Inc. domination or In the Freezone that it is therefore safe for consumption either way.

So, Who is the target audience?

The worlds citizens at large and to any of the minor groups who practice it (if they care).

[Panda Termint]

I couldn't agree more. Some of the posts lately have been beyond useless. Who is the target audience? It's become like a pretend newspaper here. People believe what they believe and if they change their beliefs it will happen in it's own time. Scientology is just another cult! All religions start as cults with charismatic leaders, and a belief that the master's teachings are the only way to salvation. And all cults probably have some truth with a lot of bullshit mixed in. It's the truth that grabs people and the lies that make it dangerous. scn just has the added gimmick of an e-meter. But some keep insisting just how good hubbard really was. Good at being bad I mean. Like he was THE master hypnotist and his every word was carefully plotted to make you lose all self control. A true expert because once it was alleged he did a correspondence course in hypnotism. Pretty convincing. Look at Christianity, look at Judaism, look at the people who beat their heads against the wailing wall and the people who bathe in water with dead bodies in it because of their faith. Talk about brainwashed. But no force or attack will change anyone's mind but usually just make their convictions that much stronger. The more I hear these viscous statements the more I get the feeling there must be some sort of self hatred for being had. scn is a menace to society. Dismantle the organization but if people chose to sift through the rubble for useful bits let 'em. I didn't think I'd ever agree with Terril but if his intentions are truly good and people are happy with the results, more power to him.
Nicely put, Thrak.

I've been thinking along the same lines.

Emma has already stated the purpose of the Board clearly enough:

"This message board is for ex Scientologists to freely discuss mutual experiences in Scientology. It covers such topics as L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige and current management, auditing and training, Ethics tech and its application, OSA, fair game, Clear & OT levels, Freewinds, and recovering from a cult experience."

That seems clear enough to me. :)

Panda

[KnightVision]

The Protest went down yesterday. It was against the Co$ and Scientology.


Yep, it did. Protest that works.

[KnightVision]

Nicely put, Thrak.

I've been thinking along the same lines.

Emma has already stated the purpose of the Board clearly enough:

"This message board is for ex Scientologists to freely discuss mutual experiences in Scientology. It covers such topics as L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige and current management, auditing and training, Ethics tech and its application, OSA, fair game, Clear & OT levels, Freewinds, and recovering from a cult experience."

That seems clear enough to me. :)

Panda

Doesn't appear that you always support such purposes. Don't worry I know why.

[Feral]

Doesn't appear that you always support such purposes. Don't worry I know why.

He can't read your posts KV because he has you on ignore, but I can and would like to know what you mean.?

[Done]

Perhaps here, because freezoners as a rule have already endured a great deal of scientology mind control from the Cult, Inc or listening to hub lectures.

But to the vast majority of the worlds populations.... they can relate, do agree or are open to any form of criticism of Scientology... It is not automatically assumed that because there are people who practice it under Cult, Inc. domination or In the Freezone that it is therefore safe for consumption either way.

So, Who is the target audience?

The worlds citizens at large and to any of the minor groups who practice it (if they care).

Wow, such utter contempt.

I was subjected to that "mind control" for 26 years. Use to tell my auditor, my reg, my course supe, and even my MAA to "fuck off" on a pretty regular basis. As I recall, it only happened a couple of times before the Golden Age of Tech, and then happened much more often afterwards. When I was in the SO, my senior heard it several times, and I even laid into the CO of my org once. It got to the point where even when quoting the exact LRH reference (with a copy in hand), the various terminals in the orgs flatly refused to follow tech and policy. That's when I a demanded refund of all money on account and left.

Maybe you are right. I don't know or understand the perspective of most ex-scn'gist. I never understood how my friends would accept the most blatant deviations from written tech and policy and somehow find it ok. My wife and I have discussed it at length. Even when she knew she was receiving an illegal or off policy order, she would often do it anyway. Many of my friends would tell my similar stories, somehow convinced they "didn't really understand the reference".

I've always hated organized religion. The day I first walked into Scn, I hated organized religion. My entire 26 years in Scientology I hated organized religions. I was not willing to tell people I was involved, not because it's a "cult" or other black PR reasons, but because it was a "Church", an organized religion.

All religions tell people, "you must believe in (fill in the blank)." I was never wiling to do that. When I was 5, I decided Christianity was a load of crap, couldn't figure out why GOD would be interested in my "worship", seems petty. The only reason I got involved in Scn in the first place was because of an LRH reference, "If it's true for you, it's true." To this day, I still hold that as my most basic stable datum.

You know KV, maybe your contempt is justified after all. I think I have finally realized why so many of my friends "rolled over" and gave up their understanding in favor of the obvious disregard, and the now open re-writing of the tech by DM. I don't think it's so much mind control, but more of an unwillingness to think for themselves, and therefore believe whatever they are told. If you want to equate that to "mind control", I won't argue the point.

[Veda]

Wow, such utter contempt.

I was subjected to that "mind control" for 26 years. Use to tell my auditor, my reg, my course supe, and even my MAA to "fuck off" on a pretty regular basis. As I recall, it only happened a couple of times before the Golden Age of Tech, and then happened much more often afterwards. When I was in the SO, my senior heard it several times, and I even laid into the CO of my org once. It got to the point where even when quoting the exact LRH reference (with a copy in hand), the various terminals in the orgs flatly refused to follow tech and policy. That's when I a demanded refund of all money on account and left.

Maybe you are right. I don't know or understand the perspective of most ex-scn'gist. I never understood how my friends would accept the most blatant deviations from written tech and policy and somehow find it ok. My wife and I have discussed it at length. Even when she knew she was receiving an illegal or off policy order, she would often do it anyway. Many of my friends would tell my similar stories, somehow convinced they "didn't really understand the reference".

-snip-



As a general rule, visible policy is not senior policy.

Many Scientologists believe that all policy is in the Green Volumes, and are not aware of confidential HCOPLs or other confidential policy writings by Hubbard.

As an old Class 8 auditor and Sea Org executive commented years ago, after leaving Scientology, "Policy is mainly cover."

One non-confidential HCOPL where Hubbard is unusually explicit (for a 'Green Volume' issue) is the 'Bolivar' PL, specifically its last two pages or so.

Hubbard instructs that, to succeed, Scientology should be run as a "tight conspiracy."

Excerpt from 'Bolivar' PL:

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=122173&postcount=16

[LEAPFROG]

The title of this thread I quote is insulting to the forum.

As a freezone scientologist, a fervid supporter and longtime protester
at anon protests against abuse I find this below insulting and demeaning to this forum. I'll just use this one statement for now referring to those who still wish to practice scientology.


"STILL SUPPORTING THE ATROCITIES OF THE CULT"

This is a lie and actually religious bigotry.

I quite rightly was slapped on the wrist by moderator/s for an intemporant post. This below though is a far more dangerous attack on those EX who still wish to follow the precepts of scientology.

I objected to being referred to as a" mental patient". So I made an intemporant post.

So Emma, didn't really want to put you or moderators on the spot. I know its hard, am a moderator.

So here you are.

ML

snipped........



There's pros and cons to the stuff Jamie says. I can see he uses a particular "style" of talking, also of which he does this for a living, with his poems and his jokes while standing on stage. He was "on stage" while giving his schspeal in the video.

I'm not making excuses for the guy - but how can you take an "entertainer" all that seriously? He's Nibs son and of course he's gonna hear every type of story and natter possible. And he's apparently, "clever" enough to try to make money at exploiting his own case.

You think the above statement is a lie? Well, the problem is that its too general. What atrocities would be my first question because I have no idea what Jamie might think is an atrocity. Its difficult to dispute a generality. Besides he doesn't like "any" organized religion according to what he said on the film.

What would you have trepidation of? That you're selling of the viewpoint of the FZ will be thwarted? - :omg: That Scn will be lost forever because one dude or a group of people think its a cult? So what. Haven't you debriefed enough from Scn to realize that no one can take away your decisions until you allow them to? Once you know that - who cares what people against something you believe strongly in, think. Bad PR and such? Your "products" are your PR - meaning those who actually do well and have wins with using tech or other parts and pieces of Scn. Focusing on that somehow takes the focus off of people like Jamie. He then becomes nothing but "entertaining". I kind of see him like the "news". I know its there and I'll listen here and there for possible tidbits, but that's about it. I go about my business afterwards.

In the land of plenty - there will always be people for a product and against a product - which is probably why competition is so strong at times. Its like a game of some sort.

I actually don't disagree with Jamie on some things. On other things I consider that he's wacked! - lol!!

Lyn

[Voltaire's Child]

KnightVision created the thread on ESMB, IIRC, not Jamie. Terril is not insecure about what he's "selling". I think witchhunts suck and I think that the targets of such have every right to counter and contradict them. I realize that a number of critics (or so I've been told like ten thousand times. Well, too bad. They. Are. Wrong.) believe that no one should ever argue back or debate ad homs, or at least, that SCIENTOLOGISTS shouldn't.

Like I said, too bad. They. Are. Wrong.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

[Terril park]

There's pros and cons to the stuff Jamie says. I can see he uses a particular "style" of talking, also of which he does this for a living, with his poems and his jokes while standing on stage. He was "on stage" while giving his schspeal in the video.

I'm not making excuses for the guy - but how can you take an "entertainer" all that seriously? He's Nibs son and of course he's gonna hear every type of story and natter possible. And he's apparently, "clever" enough to try to make money at exploiting his own case.

You think the above statement is a lie? Well, the problem is that its too general. What atrocities would be my first question because I have no idea what Jamie might think is an atrocity. Its difficult to dispute a generality. Besides he doesn't like "any" organized religion according to what he said on the film.

What would you have trepidation of? That you're selling of the viewpoint of the FZ will be thwarted? - :omg: That Scn will be lost forever because one dude or a group of people think its a cult? So what. Haven't you debriefed enough from Scn to realize that no one can take away your decisions until you allow them to? Once you know that - who cares what people against something you believe strongly in, think. Bad PR and such? Your "products" are your PR - meaning those who actually do well and have wins with using tech or other parts and pieces of Scn. Focusing on that somehow takes the focus off of people like Jamie. He then becomes nothing but "entertaining". I kind of see him like the "news". I know its there and I'll listen here and there for possible tidbits, but that's about it. I go about my business afterwards.

In the land of plenty - there will always be people for a product and against a product - which is probably why competition is so strong at times. Its like a game of some sort.

I actually don't disagree with Jamie on some things. On other things I consider that he's wacked! - lol!!

Lyn

You think I personally am worried about being attacked? I posted for years on OCMB until a load of assholes protested and Andreas said no more
freezone posts. Came back on the new " friendlier" OCMB and now this,
and my posts binned. Otherwise I'd still be posting there.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ci4aGq8fRWY

My post was primarily about defending this board and its rules of conduct.

I and any one else doing any tech, and you also, were being declared to do all but eat babies.

Emma has created a safe moderated forum here and since then we have had so many people who felt it was safe to post their stories. Only the bravest did so before.

Emma has great instincts.

[LEAPFROG]

KnightVision created the thread on ESMB, IIRC, not Jamie. Terril is not insecure about what he's "selling". I think witchhunts suck and I think that the targets of such have every right to counter and contradict them. I realize that a number of critics (or so I've been told like ten thousand times. Well, too bad. They. Are. Wrong.) believe that no one should ever argue back or debate ad homs, or at least, that SCIENTOLOGISTS shouldn't.

Like I said, too bad. They. Are. Wrong.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

I was referring to Jamie on the "video" - not to someone who started the thread. I don't think Jamie has the time for even being on lists, but that's only a guess. He's always advertising himself as this is how he makes his living. His showing up at some "anon" event, was pure PR for himself.

I'm sure Terril will tell me what he thinks - lol!!

I'm not sure what you mean by "witchhunts" in this situation.

Lyn

[LEAPFROG]

You think I personally am worried about being attacked?

No - actually, if you had been "personally" attacked in my honest opinion, I think you would have preferred this because I believe you would have a whole different type of "control" (I mean this as positive not negative) over the situation. My question here, is why would any type of attack on the FZ bother you, coming from people who are fanatics in their own way?


I posted for years on OCMB until a load of assholes protested and Andreas said no more
freezone posts. Came back on the new " friendlier" OCMB and now this,
and my posts binned. Otherwise I'd still be posting there.

My post was primarily about defending this board and its rules of conduct.

Well, I thought Emma and maybe a few others(?), for the most part did that. If there is a problem, are we not supposed to just tell Emma about it? What is there to defend, really?


I and any one else doing any tech, and you also, were being declared to do all but eat babies.

Ok - you can think I'm "wacked" - :eyeroll: but really some of the stuff Jamie was saying was so absurd to me, it was almost funny. I just can't take his stuff all that serious, even though he gets serious about it at times. Its like listening to a whiney Jewish comedian. How can you take that video seriously, Terril? Have you ever seen some of Jamie's staged "poems"? I've watched several of his videos and he's a true fanatic against fanaticism, again, trying to make money on it.

Besides, by now, aren't you used to some people who are so against anything remotely connected to Scn, that you just simply let them pass you by in the night?


Emma has created a safe moderated forum here and since then we have had so many people who felt it was safe to post their stories. Only the bravest did so before.

Right - so again - what's there to defend?


Emma has great instincts.

I think this is a great board Emma has and I feel a lot safer here than I do on many lists (including yours) - lol!! Okay, I'll knock it off.:p

Lyn

[Terril park]

Besides, by now, aren't you used to some people who are so against anything remotely connected to Scn, that you just simply let them pass you by in the night?




Duh! Of course.

Here's a cramming order, go to OCMB and read all the post of J Swift
from the beginning until you also let him pass you by in the night. :)

Among such delights you'll find his telepathic comm with an alien, and
theories that Commander Thompson sexually abused LRH and thats where the tech comes from? :ohmy:

[Mark A. Baker]

Among such delights you'll find his telepathic comm with an alien, and theories that Commander Thompson sexually abused LRH and thats where the tech comes from? :ohmy:


Umh? ... "Your needle is floating?" :whistling:


Mark A. Baker

[Voltaire's Child]

Sure. I was referring to the creation of the thread by Knightvision and Terril's anger about it, not so much the stuff by Hubbard's grandson.

There have been a lot of anti FZ witch hunts here and threads that purported to be "anti troll" but which were really directed at contributors to ESMB who weren't toe-ing some people's conception of some imaginary party line.

[Panda Termint]

Terril,
I know you're pretty bullet-proof and thick-skinned about FZ critics so the following may seem gratuitous. It's well-intended.

Don't let them grind you down, mate!

Some people seem to think of the FZ (generic) as a substitute, the methadone for scientology's heroin.
I think of it as the first and last refuge of scientologists who have discovered that their good intentions are actively being thwarted by a greedy and mainpulative "church".

Anyone wishing to practice scientology will undoubtedly do much better with it outside of the CofS. I wish them success at it.

The CofS is fixated on Evil Intentions, Overts, Withholds, Suppression, etc etc etc. They continue to resist these things ferociously (but only in others, never themselves) and, of course, just as their Founder predicted, "What you resist, you become!"

When they actually achieved the transition from helping to betrayal is open to debate but it appears to me that suppression of free spirits has been rampant in CofS for a looooooong time, it's just more obvious today.

[Terril park]

Terril,
I know you're pretty bullet-proof and thick-skinned about FZ critics so the following may seem gratuitous. It's well-intended.

Don't let them grind you down, mate!

Some people seem to think of the FZ (generic) as a substitute, the methadone for scientology's heroin.
I think of it as the first and last refuge of scientologists who have discovered that their good intentions are actively being thwarted by a greedy and mainpulative "church".

Anyone wishing to practice scientology will undoubtedly do much better with it outside of the CofS. I wish them success at it.

The CofS is fixated on Evil Intentions, Overts, Withholds, Suppression, etc etc etc. They continue to resist these things ferociously (but only in others, never themselves) and, of course, just as their Founder predicted, "What you resist, you become!"

When they actually achieved the transition from helping to betrayal is open to debate but it appears to me that suppression of free spirits has been rampant in CofS for a looooooong time, it's just more obvious today.

Right on mate. :)

[Lovesnightsky]

I agree that the CoF$ and the FZ groups should not be brushed with the same brush.

Reading Alan's posts on his building the Mission network, and the people who were winning with the tech before it was destroyed, I have to wonder if indeed the FZ is heading the same direction as the CoFS. For one thing, the FZ has existed for decades now and they are not busy trying to kill their opposition.

Saying that though, I have not seen winners in life in the FZ, nor in the CoF$. I have met wonderful people in both and some very objectionable characters in the CoF$.
The arrogance and ego tripping is a lot less in the FZ, but still exists.

But brushing both factions as being the same is an error in judgment.

[LEAPFROG]

Duh! Of course.

Here's a cramming order, go to OCMB and read all the post of J Swift
from the beginning until you also let him pass you by in the night. :)

Among such delights you'll find his telepathic comm with an alien, and
theories that Commander Thompson sexually abused LRH and thats where the tech comes from? :ohmy:

I wasn't on OCMB and actually, I'm not familiar with it. I was on alt.clearingtechnology for about a year back in and around 1997 to 98 where I had wonderful gladiator-like potshots at people - especially someone called Konchak Penday (I think that's how it was spelled) who was the "godfather" of fanatics regarding his UCP stuff. And there were other "delights" that I used to "have it out with", but its kinda like getting "gambling" out of my system. You know how I did that? I sat down for days at the "penny slots" in Reno, NV when I had first moved there back in 1980. I got "real" tired of gambling fast. And so it became after a year of absolute garbage back and forth between people who no longer gave a shit about even a regular comm cycle, much less with other X-Scn.

So, I really do understand the rantings and ravings. And Terril, I hung out at the "Greenberg" house in Pasadena in the mid 80's where a lot of L.A. people went to go "vent" after being thrown out of Scn, or just leaving. The natter was "rampant" and constant. I have no idea how many stories I heard back then of the atrocities and also a few of my own. And there were definite "loonies" in my opinion who hung out there.

I once had a person "spit" at my feet while I was standing in line at Disneyland because I mentioned Scn. I've never been "hit" for it, but after awhile, I had this realization that there were simply going to be people that were against and people that were for. That's all there was to it.

On top of this, after my "wonderful" fire and having "all" my Scn books burn up and everything else when I lived near Carson, NV (40 miles from Reno), I realized two things. That I wasn't going to "shrivel" if I couldn't rely on the "books". I knew what I knew and I'd apply what I knew the best I could. Also, that I actually "lived" on. So, this made my own decisions about Scn even more secure for myself. Meaning, that it didn't matter what anyone said - I knew what I believed and experienced and that was that.

It just doesn't matter what anyone else says about FZ or Scn, etc. The basic idea is - can you produce what you say you can produce. If so, then you're in the "pink" (including your added on hat).

The more people focus on what works rather than people who have their case jumping up and down all over a message board or anywhere else, the faster things will "ignite" and continue on. I don't consider it a "virtue" to fight with people who place things under a "general" umbrella and spout their generalities with conviction. I'm truly done with that - although there "are" times I get a bit opinionated :).

The only thing people who shout about how "bad" it all is deserve is maybe an ack and then to be passed by, but with some affinity as a being instead of as the identity they've decided to get ensared into.

Okay - I'm done rambling :)

Lyn

[degraded being]

--snipped from Panda's post --

the methadone for scientology's heroin.

very nice metaphor.

[Panda Termint]

Thanks! :)

[Voltaire's Child]

I agree that the CoF$ and the FZ groups should not be brushed with the same brush.

Reading Alan's posts on his building the Mission network, and the people who were winning with the tech before it was destroyed, I have to wonder if indeed the FZ is heading the same direction as the CoFS. For one thing, the FZ has existed for decades now and they are not busy trying to kill their opposition.

Saying that though, I have not seen winners in life in the FZ, nor in the CoF$. I have met wonderful people in both and some very objectionable characters in the CoF$.
The arrogance and ego tripping is a lot less in the FZ, but still exists.

But brushing both factions as being the same is an error in judgment.

But how well do you personally know anyone in the FZ? If someone's happy then he or she is a winner in life. But to really know that, one would generally have to know the person in his or her personal life.

[Lovesnightsky]

But how well do you personally know anyone in the FZ? If someone's happy then he or she is a winner in life. But to really know that, one would generally have to know the person in his or her personal life.

I do :)

Actually fluffy, happiness is not the gauge by which to measure success in life. Happiness is a fleeting emotion.

[Voltaire's Child]

Well, there you go, then! :)

[Lovesnightsky]

Well, there you go, then! :)

I do know people personally in the FZ and they are not successful in life.

I added in my previous post that happiness is not the gauge to success in life but you were too fast for me hehe

[Voltaire's Child]

I think that "success in life" can be defined in a number of ways. If the person is happy and is trying to do something or other and is able to do that,then he or she is successful.

I know a girl, a really nice girl, who had a lot of exposure to Scn early on in life but also to a more relaxed not so party line type Scn mindset, as well. When I knew the person, she had a number of problems, work, alcoholism, etc. And she really wanted to do FZ. Had no money to do it. She reached out to some people and was helped, no charge, no course fees, since they knew the girl's situation, nothing. Now, she's had a lot of training and auditing which she really wanted to have, and is not drinking and is happy.

[Lovesnightsky]

I think that "success in life" can be defined in a number of ways. If the person is happy and is trying to do something or other and is able to do that,then he or she is successful.



That's true. It is also true that some of the tech does improve people's conditions.

I was measuring success with what scientology promises to deliver. Total freedom.

[LEAPFROG]

That's true. It is also true that some of the tech does improve people's conditions.

I was measuring success with what scientology promises to deliver. Total freedom.

That's the problem with generalities, isn't it? Total freedom. What would that mean to each person. Even if it were meant as all the case from the whole bridge were cleaned up, etc., it might still have individual meanings.

You see all the charge and people yelling "its all a pack of lies!" based on a generality. For some, maybe they did reach total freedom, but they didn't say what their total freedom was to begin with.

To me, "freedom" is where you want to be and "trapped" is where you don't want to be, but somehow find yourself. Doesn't matter where you are when you feel yourself to be "free" because its all a matter of consideration as far as I'm concerned.

Lyn

[Neo]

-snip-

To me, "freedom" is where you want to be and "trapped" is where you don't want to be, but somehow find yourself. Doesn't matter where you are when you feel yourself to be "free" because its all a matter of consideration as far as I'm concerned.

Lyn

I agree. I was trapped whilst I was in Scientology. I became free when I left Scientology. Thanks Ron. In my experience, the true EP of Scientology Tech is the realisation that one no longer needs Scientology. So from that perspective, I guess the tech does work! I guess those still using it just haven't cogged yet.

Neo

[KnightVision]

I think that "success in life" can be defined in a number of ways. If the person is happy and is trying to do something or other and is able to do that,then he or she is successful.


That's true. It is also true that some of the tech does improve people's conditions.

I was measuring success with what scientology promises to deliver. Total freedom.

Quite apropo... cause this is the stumbling stone so many wish they had not tripped over...

They come across Scientology to try some aspect of it... as a possible solution for their problem or something they wanted to do...

But then find themself in a constant duel with the Scientologists... cause it's never enough to just use a little bit or just let an aspect of it infuse a new thought or technique...

It not the 'Road to a piece of Information.

Cause it's a totalitarian system, by default it HAS to be 'Total Freedom'.

But as so many have paid the price to discover... the moment you really demand your true Freedom...

You are excommunicated, shunned or thought of as being an obstacle to the tech having a real chance 'To Work'.

[KnightVision]

That's the problem with generalities, isn't it? Total freedom. What would that mean to each person. Even if it were meant as all the case from the whole bridge were cleaned up, etc., it might still have individual meanings.

You see all the charge and people yelling "its all a pack of lies!" based on a generality. For some, maybe they did reach total freedom, but they didn't say what their total freedom was to begin with.

To me, "freedom" is where you want to be and "trapped" is where you don't want to be, but somehow find yourself. Doesn't matter where you are when you feel yourself to be "free" because its all a matter of consideration as far as I'm concerned.

Lyn


I agree. I was trapped whilst I was in Scientology. I became free when I left Scientology. Thanks Ron. In my experience, the true EP of Scientology Tech is the realisation that one no longer needs Scientology. So from that perspective, I guess the tech does work! I guess those still using it just haven't cogged yet.

Neo

Wow, this is very powerful talk here.

I was reading it and a thought occurred to me...

Scientology only offers 'Total Freedom' if one does the Whole Bridge.

Scientology says 'The Tech Works' but you have to use All The Tech.

I have been aware that these generalities can be used to evade being caught of cornered when discussing what exactly is the defined benefit of participating in Scientology.

But while reading... it dawned on me... that these statements also imply a totalitarian view point. Imprisonment ensues becuase the the goals of the a totalitarian plan....

Are all encompasing.

Require immense committment.

Must be Followed.

Can never be acheieved.

Become Idealogically entrenched in the minds belief system since they appeal to ones imaginary 'safe world'.

These thoughts are fresh off the 'cookie sheet' and may evolve further... but right now I can see that....

The concept of 'Total Freedom' can be used to invalidate simple freedoms and thus con a person to give them up 'for the greater good'.

The concept of 'The Tech Works' can be used as an ultimatum, i.e. since this is the only choice... you must conform yourself to make the 'Tech' right!

[grundy]

Asmittedly, I, thorugh continueing exposure to the critics and stories that are extant,I have become more disillusioned with the tech.

However, I will say that I find many concepts still useful and the concept of auditing doesn't bother me at all. It worked for me.

Does that mean that others disagree? no. Are they wrong? No.

Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Another point:

Although Hubbard said he developed it all, it just isn't true. Some concepts, yes. But most procedures originated with people he worked with and he claimed ownership. The same goes for policies.

So believing in some concepts or some procedures or some policies doesn't mean that I find that Hubbard was the Messiah.

So I respectfully disagree that FZers are necessarily brainwashed.

[Voltaire's Child]

Quite apropo... cause this is the stumbling stone so many wish they had not tripped over...

They come across Scientology to try some aspect of it... as a possible solution for their problem or something they wanted to do...

But then find themself in a constant duel with the Scientologists... cause it's never enough to just use a little bit or just let an aspect of it infuse a new thought or technique...


I have no problem with someone using just a little bit or just letting an aspect of it infuse a new thought or technique. The cult doesn't like it, sure, but non CofS Scn'ists mostly don't mind or object to that at all. Some critics tend to get pissed off about that, though.

[scooter]

KV I think you've hit the nail on the head re Total Freedom

I've used (and will continue to use) some bits of "The Tech" that I've found work.

Does this make me a Scilon?

No!!!

But the only reason I stayed in for the last 8 years was the bait of "Total Freedom"

I personally don't care what Hubbard's personal problems were - he managed to corral some very workable truths under his banner (along with some things that were completely off the wall, not to mention evil)

That he was an evil drug-addled shmuck in his later years is a tragedy brought on by what he did earlier in his life to himself and others.

I've seen people whose lives have been changed forever by the Tech (or a small portion of it.)

But that doesn't make me a FZer does it?

Whatever someone does to make themselves happier is fine by me, provided it hurts no-one else in the process.

And that to me is what freedom actually is.

[Voltaire's Child]

In the end, the tech does nothing, policy does nothing , elder religions, spells, paganism, yoga, meditation- none of that does anything- it's the use a person puts those things to that "does something". In the end, it's the person him or herself who makes the changes in his or her life.

I do not believe that being in a cultic milieu is inducive to succeeding on a voyage of self discovery and self actualization.

[feline]

In the end, the tech does nothing, policy does nothing , elder religions, spells, paganism, yoga, meditation- none of that does anything- it's the use a person puts those things to that "does something". In the end, it's the person him or herself who makes the changes in his or her life.

I do not believe that being in a cultic milieu is inducive to succeeding on a voyage of self discovery and self actualization.

Exactly what I was thinking as I read.

It seems to me that it is all a series of tools. I don't know enough of the tech to know this for certain but I see a therapist weekly. What if some of the therapeutic techniques that she uses are similar to or same as something LRH said? Does that make me a member of a cult?

Each man finds his own true answer. It's called faith. I can't give you my faith nor can I insist that it be correct for you. But that doesn't mean that your faith is invalid or that mine is. It simply means that we are drawn in different directions. What I find more often than not is that if we seek out the places where we both agree, it is easier to ignore the places we don't.

As I understand it, the Freezone is many things to many people. For those who found that the tech worked for them, they can continue to use those tools. For those just out and still trying to understand the mindfuck they have been in, it can be a place of transition. A way to connect with the familiar while learning what they TRULY believe. Why is this bad?

I personally am glad that there is such a variety of alternatives available. At one time, the faith of a country was dependent on the faith of the current king/queen. Does anyone suggest that our faith and the practice of our faith should be determined by someone else?

A tool is not inherently evil. Someone using it with evil intention is. To me, evil requires an intellect to drive it. It doesn't exist as a discreet thing.

[Voltaire's Child]

Right. And I do think some therapists here and there have borrowed from Hubbard without saying so. I see no problem with that.

Membership in a group that consistently acts upon cultic attributes makes a person a member of a cult. Someone doing their own thing is not a member of a cult, regardless of how many people may say so.