What is the Freezone?

[Steven James]

I have read in another thread, someones displeasure that there seems to be people happy to practise the tech outside the Church, want to talk about it, defend it or even add it to another subject or use it alongside new therapies.

Scientology in the Church and Scientology outside the Church (per my own experience) are very different!

I have been in the 'Freezone' now for over a year. Here are some of the differences;

I used to be a staff member and things are drastically different in the Freezone. I attend a bi-monthly Rons Org study day in the UK and it has never been anything but laid back fun where people come on their own determinism. I have never been sent to ethics, reg'd or declared PTS something or the other. The people are all really nice and friendly. I went to a full time training camp in Switzerland last year and it was far superior to anything I have experienced in the Church.

The training camp was put on by Rons Org Bern and about 70-80 people were present across the week. Everyone was happy to be there- many people have never been in the Church. No one was forced to comply to a full time schedule, there was no stat pushing, no membership officer. The PL's 'Knowledge Reports' and the disconnection and suppressive person tech is rarely used if at all (only on real SP's which really are few and far between). Yes, we do get new people coming to find out about Scientology and to start a course, they normally find us on the internet. We don't go out of our way to force help on people who do not want it. No call in and letters out again and again and again.

The main difference is that you can as-is all the strange things that you experienced in Scientology and which the group went into obsessive not-iss ness.

People from the Church contact the Freezone on a weekly basis and leave the Church to continue with their chosen system and philosophy on this alternative route. We will not stop them from leaving.

I cannot speak for other Freezone practitioners or Scientology related 'isms'. I have met about 50-60 UK Freezone people in the past 13 months, some whom are very active and others who are not. They all seem very happy with what they are doing.

What I have experienced is a million miles away from the Church experience and have seen activities run at great expense to the organisers.

[Veda]

I have read in another thread, someones displeasure that there seems to be people happy to practise the tech outside the Church, want to talk about it, defend it or even add it to another subject or use it alongside new therapies.

Scientology in the Church and Scientology outside the Church (per my own experience) are very different!

I have been in the 'Freezone' now for over a year. Here are some of the differences;

I used to be a staff member and things are drastically different in the Freezone. I attend a bi-monthly Rons Org study day in the UK and it has never been anything but laid back fun where people come on their own determinism. I have never been sent to ethics, reg'd or declared PTS something or the other. The people are all really nice and friendly. I went to a full time training camp in Switzerland last year and it was far superior to anything I have experienced in the Church.

The training camp was put on by Rons Org Bern and about 70-80 people were present across the week. Everyone was happy to be there- many people have never been in the Church. No one was forced to comply to a full time schedule, there was no stat pushing, no membership officer. The PL's 'Knowledge Reports' and the disconnection and suppressive person tech is rarely used if at all (only on real SP's which really are few and far between). Yes, we do get new people coming to find out about Scientology and to start a course, they normally find us on the internet. We don't go out of our way to force help on people who do not want it. No call in and letters out again and again and again.

The main difference is that you can as-is all the strange things that you experienced in Scientology and which the group went into obsessive not-iss ness.

People from the Church contact the Freezone on a weekly basis and leave the Church to continue with their chosen system and philosophy on this alternative route. We will not stop them from leaving.

I cannot speak for other Freezone practitioners or Scientology related 'isms'. I have met about 50-60 UK Freezone people in the past 13 months, some whom are very active and others who are not. They all seem very happy with what they are doing.

What I have experienced is a million miles away from the Church experience and have seen activities run at great expense to the organisers.

Just curious.

At Ron's Orgs, is there a picture of Hubbard, and is it applauded?

How many at the training camp regarded themselves as being one of "Ron's loyal officers"?

Have you read the "Captian Bill" Briefings and Bulletins?

Any news from the Galactic Grand Council?

Are you connected to Source?

http://www.galac-patra.org

[tarbaby]

Just curious.
At Ron's Orgs, is there a picture of Hubbard, and is it applauded?
How many at the training camp regarded themselves as being one of "Ron's loyal officers"?
Have you read the "Captian Bill" Briefings and Bulletins?
Any news from the Galactic Grand Council?
Are you connected to Source?
http://www.galac-patra.org

OMG! It's an extention of Capt Bill's Twistoid Patrol?!!

Take me to your Commander! Immediately!

Dennis

[Terril park]

I m part of the same UK group Steven is.

There is a small drawing of LRH. It has never been applauded.

On loyal officers I don t know. Not heard anyone say so, and I don t
think about such matters myself.

I ve read very little of Captain Bills writing.

The Galactic council hasn t seen fit to communicate with me.
Can't help.

I am source.

http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs

http://internationa lfreezone. net

[Veda]

I m part of the same UK group Steven is.

There is a small drawing of LRH. It has never been applauded.

On loyal officers I don t know. Not heard anyone say so, and I don t
think about such matters myself.

I ve read very little of Captain Bills writing.

The Galactic council hasn t seen fit to communicate with me.
Can't help.

I am source.

http://www.freewebs .com/techoutside thecofs

http://internationa lfreezone. net

Let's see... Are you saying that in a "training camp" run by Ron's Orgs, and in Ron's Orgs over-all, that pictures of Ron are never applauded? And that Ron is never applauded?

Sorry, but that doesn't add up.

In any event, though, since you "don't know," and you "don't think," and you "read very little," I'd rather the other fellow answer.

[Terril park]

VEDA
Let's see... Are you saying that in a "training camp" run by Ron's Orgs, and in Ron's Orgs over-all, that pictures of Ron are never applauded? And that Ron is never applauded?

BB
Can only say about my local circumstance.

V
Sorry, but that doesn't add up.

BB
Whats the problem?

V
In any event, though, since you "don't know," and you "don't think," and you "read very little," I'd rather the other fellow answer.
Last edited by Veda : Today at 06:02 AM.

BB
I answered with specifics. You respond with ad hominem generalities

Perhaps you may wish to show you are not an asshole.

Good luck on that.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

[Steven James]

To Veda : Pictures of Ron are arround, but not many. We do not applaud pictures of Ron. This does happen in the Church, but it never used to. I am not sure what year this applauding business was introduced. Bea Kiddo will probably know. As Teril says, there is a framed drawing of Ron in our courseroom in the UK and nothing else. I cannot recall whether there was a picture of Ron in the courseroom at the training camp. No hand clapping.

People don't talk about being Loyal Officers or who they feel more allegance too. It's a very laid back atmosphere. I assume like the Missions that people like Alan use to run. Everyone is having a good time.

[Alan]

Pictures of Ron are arround, but not many. We do not applaud pictures of Ron. This does happen in the Church, but it never used to. I am not sure what year this applauding business was introduced.



Applauding Ron's picture and "do it for Ron" was introduced by Alex Sibirsky's "Battle of Britain" campaign, in 1970-71.

It was not an LRH origination.

[Veda]

To Veda : Pictures of Ron are arround, but not many. We do not applaud pictures of Ron. This does happen in the Church, but it never used to. I am not sure what year this applauding business was introduced. Bea Kiddo will probably know. As Teril says, there is a framed drawing of Ron in our courseroom in the UK and nothing else. I cannot recall whether there was a picture of Ron in the courseroom at the training camp. No hand clapping.

People don't talk about being Loyal Officers or who they feel more allegance too. It's a very laid back atmosphere. I assume like the Missions that people like Alan use to run. Everyone is having a good time.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll take you at your word.

Just for the record: Ron's pictures have been applauded since at least 1969, and by direct order from Ron himself. It wasn't an "off Source" idea.

Now, here are some of my opinions and observations. And I hope that I don't hurt anyone's feelings:

The Ron's Orgs members I've known were not up front, with outsiders, about what they believed. They used Scientology "PR tech," including "acceptable truth." Privately, they used terms, such as "meatballs," to describe those who didn't recognize Elron Elray (RON) as the leader for the "decontamination of this sector of the Galaxy."

Plus, they sought to identify people such as David Mayo, and groups such as Metapsychology and Idenics, with the "Free Zone," when these did not wish to be so identified, since they did not regard themselves as being part of the "Free Zone."

I've paged through long lists of SP Declares by Ron's Orgs, the earliest of which were written by Bill Robertson. Some of these 'SP Declares' described people as being "directly monitored by Xenu."

That said, the folks I've met in Ron's Orgs (going back to its founding) are mostly nice people.

Unfortunately, they tend to be fixated on e-meters as "truth detectors" - IMO, meters are useful devices in a *very* limited sense, but not "truth detectors."

They also tend to be caught up in Captain Bill's galactic conspiracy scenerio, and have been known to check their e-meters to see if this or that person was a Markabian agent, or not. (Exactly how their e-meters would determine this, I'm not sure.)

From my experience, they believe almost every word that Hubbard wrote or spoke, including Hubbard's scare stories about the "dwindling spiral" and "Hubbardian Hell" (where beings end up who refuse to walk the "Bridge," and become body cells, or worse.)

And they're obsessed with "the *problem* of body thetans," ("degraded beings" attached to their bodies and environment.) And I mean *very* obsessed, and to their ultimate detriment.

Anyone is entitled to believe anything they please, however, I wish these folks - then and now - would be more up front about what they actually believe.

There was a poster on a.r.s., and, I think, a.c.t., called "ToBe," and he was celebrated as a gung-ho example to other Ron's Org's/Free Zoners. If anyone cares to track down his postings/success stories, they provide a small sample of a mind-set that is usually not exposed to outsiders.

It's a kind of fanaticism, and a silly fanaticism, mixed with the usual assortment of Hubbardian mind-tricks, AND, also mixed with what I consider to be some worthwhile data and potential beneficial *basic* counseling methods. So, yes, I do think there is *some* good in Ron's Orgs.

However, that part of Scientology I least value: the auditor code-violating Sci-Fi levels, Xenu, etc., is the part that they, privately, most cherish.

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone. The lack of full honestly is a carry-over from Scientology and, after all, they are Scientologists, aren't they? And RON's Scientologists to boot.

If someone is going to be a kinder and gentler fan(atic) for RON, why not come out of the closet?

I mean, if *I* thought that Ron Hubbard was the savior for the Galaxy, I wouldn't have any problem applauding him, and I wouldn't hide my admiration for him.

C'mon guys. Come out of the closet. It's OK, really.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

[Alanzo]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll take you at your word.

Just for the record: Ron's pictures have been applauded since at least 1969, and by direct order from Ron himself. It wasn't an "off Source" idea.

Now, here are some of my opinions and observations. And I hope that I don't hurt anyone's feelings:

The Ron's Orgs members I've known were not up front, with outsiders, about what they believed. They used Scientology "PR tech," including "acceptable truth." Privately, they used terms, such as "meatballs," to describe those who didn't recognize Elron Elray (RON) as the leader for the "decontamination of this sector of the Galaxy."

Plus, they sought to identify people such as David Mayo, and groups such as Metapsychology and Idenics, with the "Free Zone," when these did not wish to be so identified, since they did not regard themselves as being part of the "Free Zone."

I've paged through long lists of SP Declares by Ron's Orgs, the earliest of which were written by Bill Robertson. Some of these 'SP Declares' described people as being "directly monitored by Xenu."

That said, the folks I've met in Ron's Orgs (going back to its founding) are mostly nice people.

Unfortunately, they tend to be fixated on e-meters as "truth detectors" - IMO, meters are useful devices in a *very* limited sense, but not "truth detectors."

They also tend to be caught up in Captain Bill's galactic conspiracy scenerio, and have been known to check their e-meters to see if this or that person was a Markabian agent, or not. (Exactly how their e-meters would determine this, I'm not sure.)

From my experience, they believe almost every word that Hubbard wrote or spoke, including Hubbard's scare stories about the "dwindling spiral" and "Hubbardian Hell" (where beings end up who refuse to walk the "Bridge," and become body cells, or worse.)

And they're obsessed with "the *problem* of body thetans," ("degraded beings" attached to their bodies and environment.) And I mean *very* obsessed, and to their ultimate detriment.

Anyone is entitled to believe anything they please, however, I wish these folks - then and now - would be more up front about what they actually believe.

There was a poster on a.r.s., and, I think, a.c.t., called "ToBe," and he was celebrated as a gung-ho example to other Ron's Org's/Free Zoners. If anyone cares to track down his postings/success stories, they provide a small sample of a mind-set that is usually not exposed to outsiders.

It's a kind of fanaticism, and a silly fanaticism, mixed with the usual assortment of Hubbardian mind-tricks, AND, also mixed with what I consider to be some worthwhile data and potential beneficial *basic* counseling methods. So, yes, I do think there is *some* good in Ron's Orgs.

However, that part of Scientology I least value: the auditor code-violating Sci-Fi levels, Xenu, etc., is the part that they, privately, most cherish.

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone. The lack of full honestly is a carry-over from Scientology and, after all, they are Scientologists, aren't they? And RON's Scientologists to boot.

If someone is going to be a kinder and gentler fan(atic) for RON, why not come out of the closet?

I mean, if *I* thought that Ron Hubbard was the savior for the Galaxy, I wouldn't have any problem applauding him, and I wouldn't hide my admiration for him.

C'mon guys. Come out of the closet. It's OK, really.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

Fantastic post.

Thank you, Veda.

[Veda]

Applauding Ron's picture and "do it for Ron" was introduced by Alex Sibirsky's "Battle of Britain" campaign, in 1970-71.

It was not an LRH origination.

I would disagree with this. This doesn't line up with what I know.

People coming back from the Flagship were the biggest demanders that "LRH photo" be applauded. And it definitely started before 1970.

Remember, the idea of making Scientology a "Church" wasn't Hubbard's idea either - but it *was*.

After becoming the "Commodore," Hubbard encouraged and enforced his own adulation.

[Alan]

In late 1969, I was standing alongside LRH talking to him on the deck above the well deck, when Sibirsky yelled at someone to "do it for Ron!"

LRH was appalled; he said "did you hear that - do it for Ron?" I said no Ron. Yes; I called him Ron.

He ranted about it: Saying: "I did not do this for me!"

I never heard that he did not originate the idea about the Church! He definitely did!

But, there was so much duplicity emanating from LRH - so you maybe right about the applauding the picture - but I doubt it. :)

Alan

[Zinjifar]

In late 1969, I was standing alongside LRH talking to him on the deck above the well deck, when Sibirsky yelled at someone to "do it for Ron!"

LRH was appalled; he said "did you hear that - do it for Ron?" I said no Ron. Yes; I called him Ron.

He ranted about it: Saying: "I did not do this for me!"

I never heard that he did not originate the idea about the Church! He definitely did!

But, there was so much duplicity emanating from LRH - so you maybe right about the applauding the picture - but I doubt it. :)

Alan

I think it's completely reasonable to assume that Ron originated His cheers by proxy.

If Scientology was a democracy, he would have made damn sure he counted His own votes too :)

Zinj

[programmer_guy]

What is the Freezone?

I guess the definition depends on the context.


1. The original one by Bill Robertson


The FREE ZONE DECREE was received on Earth on the 10th of November 1982 at 1030 GMT. It states, (as relayed from Mainship, Sector 9):

OFFICIAL DECREE - GALACTIC GRAND COUNCIL

1. The planet known as Teegeeack - local dialect "Earth" or "Terra" - Sun 12, Sector 9, is hereby declared a Free Zone.

2. No political interference in its affairs from any other part of the Sector or Galaxy will be tolerated.

3. No economic interference in its affairs will be tolerated from any non-planetary agency or power.

4. All of its inhabitants are hereby declared Free Zone Citizens and free of external political or economic interference.

5. The regulating agency of this decree is the Galactic Patrol Sector 9,
Sector Commander Elron Elray and his designated representatives.

6. The planet is henceforth under the Sole Auspices of the Galactic Patrol, Sector 9, for coordination with Galactic and Sector Affairs and for compliance with this decree.

7. The Technical and Ethical experiments in progress on Teegeeack are not affected by this decree and are to continue under the auspices of the Galactic Patrol, Sector 9.

8. This Decree is issued by unanimous vote of the Grand Council.

GRAND COUNCIL CHAIRMAN

FOR ALL MEMBERS SECTOR 0 GALAXY 1



2. A more general one as found in Wikipedia


The term Free Zone was originally only used by a single organization, but the term is now commonly applied to all non-CoS Scientologists, although many dispute the application of the term to themselves.

[namaste]

I've been wondering about this myself for a little while, so I guess I am asking for some further clarification.

So the "Freezone" is pretty much Ron's Org only and not other independent type groups?
In other words, they practice LRH standard tech outside of the COS?

And persons that practice not-so-standard LRH tech and other types of spiritual tech outside of the Church would not be considered part of the Freezone?

I'm just asking; I noticed the two different listings on the forum index.
i.e.
Independent field (http://forum.exscn.net/forumdisplay.php?f=34)
Freezone (http://forum.exscn.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

Thanks for any feedback.

[Alanzo]

What is the Freezone?

I guess the definition depends on the context....

LOL!

I guess I shouldn't laugh. I thought kinda like that once.

Though I hope not as bad as that.

[freet43]

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone.

Veda,

I just want to clarify that the Freezone does not equal Ron's Orgs. Yes, RO are in the FZ, but there are many other FZ groups that are not affiliated with RO, nor have anything to do wih the writings of Capt Bill.

I know very little about ROs and their practices, other than I've met some nice people that belong to those groups.

[programmer_guy]

So the "Freezone" is pretty much Ron's Org only and not other independent type groups?


Not anymore. Most people seem to use it in the general meaning. See definition #2 above.

[Veda]

Veda,

I just want to clarify that the Freezone does not equal Ron's Orgs. Yes, RO are in the FZ, but there are many other FZ groups that are not affiliated with RO, nor have anything to do wih the writings of Capt Bill.

I know very little about ROs and their practices, other than I've met some nice people that belong to those groups.

Firstly, there is no virtue in "knowing very little." Really, there isn't.

Please notice that on this Forum there are two categories: Freezone & Ron's Orgs, and then, Independent Field. (Why is that?)

This can be a bit confusing, since, many years ago, in an apparent effort to co-opt the Independent Field, the "Free Zone" became the "Freezone."

This included seeking to identify the (now) "Freezone" with subjects such as Metapsychology, despite the fact that Metapsychology did/does not wish to be identified with the Ron-hugging/Xenu-believing "Free Zone"/"Freezone."

As a general rule, the people who still revere Hubbard (LRH, RON, the Commodore, and, yes [hush!] Elron Elray), and believe in his Implant levels (Clearing Course, OT 2, OT 3), consider themselves part of the "Freezone."

For the most part, the Freezone, is Ron's Orgs, and then Ralph Hilton, and a couple of other guys and their groups. They consider themselves "Scientologists," and sell people the Sea Org era "Bridge." They love their Commodore.

And that's fine with me. I just wish some people would be a little more up front... but hey, it's a sensitive topic.

There's a "slipperiness" that carries over from Scientology that I don't care for.

It's a quiet attempt (by some) to manipulate with a little name change switcherooni. And, inevitably, there are those who go along with it, and *are* honest and sincere about the name.

I'm just making observations.

And my original comments/questions were about Ron's Orgs, and a Ron' Orgs Training Camp.

[Steven James]

Hello Veda, thank you for the long response!

May I ask which group/members in Ron's Org displayed an obsession with body thetans/e-meters et al?

Do you have that list of Rons Org declares?

Who in Ron's Org practises 'acceptable truth'?

This has never been an emphasis in the UK group. I have been a student in a course room run by the Hauri's and been audited by their son in law which was some of the best auditing I ever had. There was definitely no pictures of Ron in the auditing room, I only heard Bill's name mentioned once (in a success story) and maybe a second time on the last night of the training camp. Most of attendees discussed other subjects alltogether between course/sessions. Homosexuals are also accepted and allowed their bridge without ridicule.

On the point of e-meters- An associate of mine recently stated something like 'god help you if you need an e-meter to tell you you have overts'. And I would agree with that!

As for Robertson's activities, I have read L.Kins third Volume 'The Pied Pipers of Heaven, Who Calls The Tune?' and I personally disagreed with several things and don't intend on getting involved with that myself and won't be forced to. I also believe Robertson is describing a scientific cosmoly from his own viewpoint in woolly esoteric/sci-fi'ish terms. That he realises the science, I do not believe.

In fact, far less time is spent on e-meters and body thetans in Ron's Org as that lenghtly OT7 with it's six month check is not used.

EDIT;

Veda is right about the build up of the Freezone. The Freezone includes Ron's Org, and about 20-30 field auditors/groups (that I know of) that practise the Scientology Bridge from the bottom to the top. Does not include some courses. Adoration of Ron is not neccessary or required. I have read 'Bare faced Messiah' and 'A Piece of Blue Sky' and do not think Hubbard was truthful about his history- and others share this viewpoint. Even my course supervisor in Rons Org who has been in Scientology since the early 60's cringed when he went to a speech by the author of the official, unreleased biography.

There are however, several termianls who are zealous in practising standard tech.

The Independent Field can include the Freezone as one component but also encompasses other isms and groups such as metapsychology. In the UK metaphsychology/Freezone have crossed paths as several ex-Churchies run a Forum in North West London which is based on the Independent Field, they hold this annualy and they are metaphyscologists and 'practitioners of standard tech'. I believe another metaphsycologist in Brighton considers himself Ron's Org as well and went to the forming Ron's Org UK meet in Gatwick early last year.

[Zinjifar]

Hello Veda, thank you for the long response!

May I ask which group/members in Ron's Org displayed an obsession with body thetans/e-meters et al?

Do you have that list of Rons Org declares?

Who in Ron's Org practises 'acceptable truth'?

This has never been an emphasis in the UK group. I have been a student in a course room run by the Hauri's and been audited by their son in law which was some of the best auditing I ever had. There was definitely no pictures of Ron in the auditing room, I only heard Bill's name mentioned once (in a success story) and maybe a second time on the last night of the training camp. Most of attendees discussed other subjects alltogether between course/sessions. Homosexuals are also accepted and allowed their bridge without ridicule.

On the point of e-meters- An associate of mine recently stated something like 'god help you if you need an e-meter to tell you you have overts'. And I would agree with that!

As for Robertson's activities, I have read L.Kins third Volume 'The Pied Pipers of Heaven, Who Calls The Tune?' and I personally disagreed with several things and don't intend on getting involved with that myself and won't be forced to. I also believe Robertson is describing a scientific cosmoly from his own viewpoint in woolly esoteric/sci-fi'ish terms. That he realises the science, I do not believe.

In fact, far less time is spent on e-meters and body thetans in Ron's Org as that lenghtly OT7 with it's six month check is not used.

EDIT;

Veda is right about the build up of the Freezone. The Freezone includes Ron's Org, and about 20-30 field auditors/groups (that I know of) that practise the Scientology Bridge from the bottom to the top. Does not include some courses. Adoration of Ron is not neccessary or required. I have read 'Bare faced Messiah' and 'A Piece of Blue Sky' and do not think Hubbard was truthful about his history- and others share this viewpoint. Even my course supervisor in Rons Org who has been in Scientology since the early 60's cringed when he went to a speech by the author of the official, unreleased biography.

There are however, several termianls who are zealous in practising standard tech.

The Independent Field can include the Freezone as one component but also encompasses other isms and groups such as metapsychology. In the UK metaphsychology/Freezone have crossed paths as several ex-Churchies run a Forum in North West London which is based on the Independent Field, they hold this annualy and they are metaphyscologists and 'practitioners of standard tech'. I believe another metaphsycologist in Brighton considers himself Ron's Org as well and went to the forming Ron's Org UK meet in Gatwick early last year.

My first realization of the 'Capt. Bill' version of Scientology was back when Gordon Bell told us tales of the silver spaceboots and shooting up PAC with a 45 and being dragged by his hair through the halls.

All amusing for people who already thought *Ron* was whacked :)

(P.S. Thanks to the person who mentioned 'The Golden Troubadour'. I haven't read it yet, and, by all rights, I shouldn't like it, but, I love Gordon, so I'm glad that I got a copy from Amazon, and, it's possible I *will* like it ) :)

Zinj

[Veda]

In late 1969, I was standing alongside LRH talking to him on the deck above the well deck, when Sibirsky yelled at someone to "do it for Ron!"

LRH was appalled; he said "did you hear that - do it for Ron?" I said no Ron. Yes; I called him Ron.

He ranted about it: Saying: "I did not do this for me!"

I never heard that he did not originate the idea about the Church! He definitely did!

But, there was so much duplicity emanating from LRH - so you maybe right about the applauding the picture - but I doubt it. :)

Alan

Was the Commodore standing near his "LRH" monogrammed smokestack when this occurred? (Whatever happened to that smokestack? I know there's a photo somewhere).

Anyway, I wasn't referring to "Do it for Ron," but only to the practice of applauding.

One of my first impressions of Scientology, at the New York Org, was of a crowded and busy place, where at any moment one would hear a "That's it! So and so just completed ________" Followed by thunderous applause.

In this atmosphere were many photos of Hubbard, including an aprox. five foot by four foot photo (the old full face one), in the Academy. And it was applauded.

Sea Org people - and the select few staff, who had just returned from the Flagship - were the most fierce about it, and I can recall hearing conversations about some Missions having "out-LRH photo" and "out-LRH acknowledgement."

[Veda]

Hello Veda, thank you for the long response!

May I ask which group/members in Ron's Org displayed an obsession with body thetans/e-meters et al?

Do you have that list of Rons Org declares?

Who in Ron's Org practises 'acceptable truth'?

This has never been an emphasis in the UK group. I have been a student in a course room run by the Hauri's and been audited by their son in law which was some of the best auditing I ever had. There was definitely no pictures of Ron in the auditing room, I only heard Bill's name mentioned once (in a success story) and maybe a second time on the last night of the training camp. Most of attendees discussed other subjects alltogether between course/sessions. Homosexuals are also accepted and allowed their bridge without ridicule.

On the point of e-meters- An associate of mine recently stated something like 'god help you if you need an e-meter to tell you you have overts'. And I would agree with that!

As for Robertson's activities, I have read L.Kins third Volume 'The Pied Pipers of Heaven, Who Calls The Tune?' and I personally disagreed with several things and don't intend on getting involved with that myself and won't be forced to. I also believe Robertson is describing a scientific cosmoly from his own viewpoint in woolly esoteric/sci-fi'ish terms. That he realises the science, I do not believe.

In fact, far less time is spent on e-meters and body thetans in Ron's Org as that lenghtly OT7 with it's six month check is not used.

EDIT;

Veda is right about the build up of the Freezone. The Freezone includes Ron's Org, and about 20-30 field auditors/groups (that I know of) that practise the Scientology Bridge from the bottom to the top. Does not include some courses. Adoration of Ron is not neccessary or required. I have read 'Bare faced Messiah' and 'A Piece of Blue Sky' and do not think Hubbard was truthful about his history- and others share this viewpoint. Even my course supervisor in Rons Org who has been in Scientology since the early 60's cringed when he went to a speech by the author of the official, unreleased biography.

There are however, several termianls who are zealous in practising standard tech.

The Independent Field can include the Freezone as one component but also encompasses other isms and groups such as metapsychology. In the UK metaphsychology/Freezone have crossed paths as several ex-Churchies run a Forum in North West London which is based on the Independent Field, they hold this annualy and they are metaphyscologists and 'practitioners of standard tech'. I believe another metaphsycologist in Brighton considers himself Ron's Org as well and went to the forming Ron's Org UK meet in Gatwick early last year.

"Which members in Ron's Org displayed an obsession with body thetans/e-meters, et al?"

You want a list of names?

"Who in Ron's Org practices 'acceptable truth?' "

Are you asking me, who in Ron's Org practices LRH's Scientology PR tech?

"Do I have a list of Ron's Org Declares?"

No, I should have photocopied them when I had the chance. Contact Marianne Hagan, she can probably provide them, unless she, "doesn't know," etc. (Cough.)

Here's the situation, IMO: L. Ron Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and some people have never "sorted out" what Hubbard did.

And, I *do* think there's some "good stuff" in the subject, but it *seriously* needs "sorting out."

And people are going to disagree. That's natural.

Suggest that you read 'Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology', which is about the 64 page booklet that Hubbard called the "Brainwashing Manual." Some people think it's pretty close to being the blueprint for "modern Scientology."

http://forum.exscn.net/forumdisplay.php?f=33

[Alan]

Was the Commodore standing near his "LRH" monogrammed smokestack when this occurred? (Whatever happened to that smokestack? I know there's a photo somewhere).



You gotta be kidding! "LRH" monogrammed smokestack! LRH ran for his life the moment any "out security" person knew where he was.




Anyway, I wasn't referring to "Do it for Ron," but only to the practice of applauding.

One of my first impressions of Scientology, at the New York Org, was of a crowded and busy place, where at any moment one would hear a "That's it! So and so just completed ________" Followed by thunderous applause.

In this atmosphere were many photos of Hubbard, including an aprox. five foot by four foot photo (the old full face one), in the Academy. And it was applauded.



The NY ORG in 1968, I knew was the best Org in the history of Scio. No way did they applaud pics of LRH. But they definitely applauded a completion - the reason being they had a great cross check system that truly got the person the Grades Level. They also had great Sups.

The NY Org had the 3 best tech and admin trained execs in the world at the time, Bob Thomas, Dave and Lee Ecker......these three would check out every product.

The fast flow examiner line destroyed this quality control.

Until Oct 1968, no public or Org people were given services on the ship.

The whole Org Game began to turn nasty after the Class VIII's returned back from the original Class VIII Course........idiot, abusive stupidity ruled the day and has done ever since.

That was instigated by LRH.




Sea Org people - and the select few staff, who had just returned from the Flagship - were the most fierce about it, and I can recall hearing conversations about some Missions having "out-LRH photo" and "out-LRH acknowledgement."



The FEBC came into being in 1970 - The people recruited for this course had almost no experience Technically or for that matter had never built or grown anything in their lives.......on their return these insane "up-the-pole' psychos led to the real abusive period in Orgs., which has slowly gotten worse as the years progressed.

Luckily the Mission Holders were spared the horrors of the FEBC.

In latter years many Mission Holders did the FEBC......mostly in self defence! :mad: But they were experienced in all areas of running and building and handling people and cases.

Alan

[Veda]

You gotta be kidding! "LRH" monogrammed smokestack! LRH ran for his life the moment any "out security" person knew where he was.



The NY ORG in 1968, I knew was the best Org in the history of Scio. No way did they applaud pics of LRH. But they definitely applauded a completion - the reason being they had a great cross check system that truly got the person the Grades Level. They also had great Sups.

The NY Org had the 3 best tech and admin trained execs in the world at the time, Bob Thomas, Dave and Lee Ecker......these three would check out every product.

The fast flow examiner line destroyed this quality control.

Until Oct 1968, no public or Org people were given services on the ship.

The whole Org Game began to turn nasty after the Class VIII's returned back from the original Class VIII Course........idiot, abusive stupidity ruled the day and has done ever since.

That was instigated by LRH.



The FEBC came into being in 1970 - The people recruited for this course had almost no experience Technically or for that matter had never built or grown anything in their lives.......on their return these insane "up-the-pole' psychos led to the real abusive period in Orgs., which has slowly gotten worse as the years progressed.

Luckily the Mission Holders were spared the horrors of the FEBC.

In latter years many Mission Holders did the FEBC......mostly in self defence! :mad: But they were experienced in all areas of running and building and handling people and cases.

Alan

I wish I'd saved all that old Scientology promo - there is a photo of L. Ron Hubbard standing beneath a smokestack, with the letters "LRH" painted on it.

As for the New York Org, by the fall of 1969, a roughly 4 foot by 5 foot photo, with a gold colored frame, was being applauded in their Academy.

This is a grainy reproduction of that photo:

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/crowhub2.gif

[Alan]

I wish I'd saved all that old Scientology promo - there is a photo of L. Ron Hubbard standing beneath a smokestack, with the letters "LRH" painted on it.

As for the New York Org, by the fall of 1969, a roughly 4 foot by 5 foot photo, with a gold colored frame, was being applauded in their Academy.

This is a grainy reproduction of that photo:

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/crowhub2.gif



I believe I saw that picture also.....but I never saw an LRH monogrammed funnel. Most likely drawn by an artist.

There was an insane SO Book Mission, manned with Doreen Casey and Yvonne Gilham, sent into NY Org around September 1968, they had orders from LRH when they went into an Org.....they were to muster the staff and in front of the staff were to plunge a dagger into the wall or board - as a sign of SO Ethics Presence.......all it succceeded in doing was blowing the Org to bits.........dozens of staff left the Org at that time......many left Scio for good.

And so began a reign of terror.

Alan

[Alan]

I find it interesting that LRH issued OT III in Jan 1968, and he got progressively more abusive and psychotic as the year went on. That was the year of the overboards, the children in chain lockers, etc.

Also it was the start of hunting for R6ers, Xenu's buddies and of course being a Loyal Officer.

[Terril park]

VEDA

The Ron's Orgs members I've known were not up front, with outsiders, about what they believed. They used Scientology "PR tech," including "acceptable truth." Privately, they used terms, such as "meatballs," to describe those who didn't recognize Elron Elray (RON) as the leader for the "decontamination of this sector of the Galaxy."

BB
Are you the person who posts as " Muldoon" on ARS and ACT? You both appear to wish to black PR Ron's Orgs.

V
Plus, they sought to identify people such as David Mayo, and groups such as Metapsychology and Idenics, with the "Free Zone," when these did not wish to be so identified, since they did not regard themselves as being part of the "Free Zone."

BB
I don't know where and when you get your ideas and data from. Perhaps you can fill us in on that. Ron's Orgs do not concern themselves with metapsychology and Idenics. Maybe you met some individual once who said they were RO and he had some individual ideas.

V
I've paged through long lists of SP Declares by Ron's Orgs, the earliest of which were written by Bill Robertson. Some of these 'SP Declares' described people as being "directly monitored by Xenu."

BB
CBR did write one SP declare on Miscavidge. Seems quite possible he wrote others. He did seem to have a thing re Xenu. Why don't you post these
declares?

V
That said, the folks I've met in Ron's Orgs (going back to its founding) are mostly nice people.

Unfortunately, they tend to be fixated on e-meters as "truth detectors" - IMO, meters are useful devices in a *very* limited sense, but not "truth detectors."

They also tend to be caught up in Captain Bill's galactic conspiracy scenerio, and have been known to check their e-meters to see if this or that person was a Markabian agent, or not. (Exactly how their e-meters would determine this, I'm not sure.)

BB
The use of meters for security checks is standard practice for those who
follow standard tech. Many FZers, apart from Ron's Orgs are worried about OSA. OSA are particularly keen to infiltrate and damage Ron's Orgs. In our UK FZ group 6 have been visited by OSA on more than one occasion. There have been attempts to infiltrate ROs in Switzerland and Russia. The COS is trying to trademark the term Ron's Orgs, and doing so in an underhand way.
Legal issues are ongoing.

V
From my experience, they believe almost every word that Hubbard wrote or spoke, including Hubbard's scare stories about the "dwindling spiral" and "Hubbardian Hell" (where beings end up who refuse to walk the "Bridge," and become body cells, or worse.)

BB
This is common for many scientologists.

V

And they're obsessed with "the *problem* of body thetans," ("degraded beings" attached to their bodies and environment.) And I mean *very* obsessed, and to their ultimate detriment.

BB

Your positioning doing upper levels as being obsessed. If one is not interested in doing such levels one is unlikely to be a scientologist. In
other words this is just an ad-hominem attack on all scientologists.

V
Anyone is entitled to believe anything they please, however, I wish these folks - then and now - would be more up front about what they actually believe.

There was a poster on a.r.s., and, I think, a.c.t., called "ToBe," and he was celebrated as a gung-ho example to other Ron's Org's/Free Zoners. If anyone cares to track down his postings/success stories, they provide a small sample of a mind-set that is usually not exposed to outsiders.
It's a kind of fanaticism, and a silly fanaticism, mixed with the usual assortment of Hubbardian mind-tricks, AND, also mixed with what I consider to be some worthwhile data and potential beneficial *basic* counseling methods. So, yes, I do think there is *some* good in Ron's Orgs.

BB
" ToBe" is a personal friend, and it was I who posted this person's success stories. You write about this as "Muldoon" does. ToBe knew nothing much about ROs when they were posted.

V
However, that part of Scientology I least value: the auditor code-violating Sci-Fi levels, Xenu, etc., is the part that they, privately, most cherish.

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone. The lack of full honestly is a carry-over from Scientology and, after all, they are Scientologists, aren't they? And RON's Scientologists to boot.

If someone is going to be a kinder and gentler fan(atic) for RON, why not come out of the closet?

I mean, if *I* thought that Ron Hubbard was the savior for the Galaxy, I wouldn't have any problem applauding him, and I wouldn't hide my admiration for him.

C'mon guys. Come out of the closet. It's OK, really.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

BB
I'm certainly not in a closet. But what about you? Critical snipings from
an Anon Nick? Any reason you need to be anon?

[Terril park]

NAMASTE
I've been wondering about this myself for a little while, so I guess I am asking for some further clarification.

So the "Freezone" is pretty much Ron's Org only and not other independent type groups?
In other words, they practice LRH standard tech outside of the COS?

And persons that practice not-so-standard LRH tech and other types of spiritual tech outside of the Church would not be considered part of the Freezone?

I'm just asking; I noticed the two different listings on the forum index.
i.e.
Independent field
Freezone

BB
The term "Free Zone" was coined by Captain Bill Robertson who is the founder of Ron's Orgs.

Rons Orgs differ from those who follow " standard tech" ( in theory the bridge that COS is supposed to do, ) in that it replaces the currant OT 4-7
lineup with a similar level they call Excaliber. They also have other levels above that which I know little about. ROs also will still use the original OT 4-7
ie not the currant NOTs levels. These are also used in places in the non RO FZ.

The standard tech guys and RO guys generally work well with each other and consider themselves allies.

The term Freezone is also used to cover general clearing practices that are an offshoot of scientology. Metapsychology, Idenics, are a couple of Examples.

Alan uses the term Independant Field as :-

"Independent field Tech outside Scientology & Ron's Orgs "

I believe he includes a broader spectrum than the general term "Freezone", perhaps he'll comment.

[Alan]

Part of Standard Tech is the Auditors Code.

I hereby promise as an auditor to follow the Auditor?s Code.

1 I promise not to evaluate for the preclear or tell him what he should think about his case in session.

2 I promise not to invalidate the preclear?s case or gains in or out of session.

Just how standard tech is Scio and Ron's Org?

I think Scio departed from Standard Tech in 1964. Up to that time you could find out for yourself what your case or for that matter what your life was composed of.

You had power of choice with whom you could communicate to or not.

Perhaps the greatest fun was you could talk about your case in or out of session......1,000's of hours of great coffee shop processing.

There were few boogie-men in those days - just booggie Gov Organizations.

You had 1000's of basic processes you could run.

Yadda! Yadda! :) :)

Alan

[Div6]

(P.S. Thanks to the person who mentioned 'The Golden Troubadour'. I haven't read it yet, and, by all rights, I shouldn't like it, but, I love Gordon, so I'm glad that I got a copy from Amazon, and, it's possible I *will* like it ) :)

Zinj


You're welcome. Please post a critique when you are done. Gordon is out in Utah now, but still has his web site up at Chapel Tibet (http://www.chapeltibet.cnchost.com/ct/ct1.html).

[Terril park]

ALAN
Just how standard tech is Scio and Ron's Org?

BB
Adhering to class VIII tech. An example you espoused and were proud of. You are a class VIII. I believe you still apply the basics from LRH. I think stated on this forum. Certainly elsewhere.

More importantly being there for the person in front of you. Basics. I know
you espouse these.

A
I think Scio departed from Standard Tech in 1964. Up to that time you could find out for yourself what your case or for that matter what your life was composed of.

BB
Hmm. There was no "standard tech" then. am I correct?

A
You had power of choice with whom you could communicate to or not.

Perhaps the greatest fun was you could talk about your case in or out of session......1,000's of hours of great coffee shop processing.

BB
In general those in the freezone are free.

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. Or something like that.

[Emma]

Hey Terril,

Is there anything I can do, any favour, any offer of money or fame that would get you to learn how to use the quote function?

[programmer_guy]

Hey Terril,

Is there anything I can do, any favour, any offer of money or fame that would get you to learn how to use the quote function?

I ALREADY showed him how to do that on OCMB a long time ago.

[george rasmussen]

the "independent field" preceeded Capt Bill's Free Zone Decree. many found the term Free Zone handy (for sales) even if they disagreed with the Decree. Pat Krenik for example.
i find the term "standard tech" laughable. these people outside Co$ pick and choose what HCOBs and PLs they use. the outrages include delivering advanced courses without application of the related tech references to posted personel and their training levels. somehow this is better than Co$ and these are better people doing it ????
well....the word "fraud" comes to mind. most States have detailed laws concerning this in a financial transaction. these are not ethical law abiding people. it is not "standard tech" . hear that Pat Krenik???
there are even Free Zoners from Rons Org who run illegal operations here in the USA. legal ruds are wildly out. the basics of "first policy" and "senior policy" (very much part of Capt Bill's world) are not applied. WATCH OUT.
prove me wrong marianne.

i want the field cleaned up. how about you guys? are you willing to call these people out?

underdog

[programmer_guy]

the outrages include delivering advanced courses without application of the related tech references to posted personel and their training levels.


Courses? How do they do that without violating copyright law? Just curious.

[Steven James]

Programmer guy; that is a very good point.

Veda, it would be nice if you could pull out that list of SP Declares. The only thing I can think of regarding the SP Declares, is a list over at www.freezone.org, written in the early 80's, covering non-Scientologists?

Is all the marcab 'obessesive' stuff, data pulled from Marianne's success stories? www.ronsorg.org?

Most Ron's Org people I know have never had to be upfront about anything. The vast majority do not post on ther internet or even bother with the 'critics'. They could not care less. I can only think of one person to hand who is not open about what they do, and they are fairly new to the subject. I have a non-Scio friend who has questioned me about just about everything on the net and I gave honest answers.

I have not experienced a 'group think' in Ron's Org where the group dispose of people who do not agree with a certain aspect of that think.

The atmosphere, the study progress, the quality of the auditing, the sheer strength of all the dynamics of every individual, make it a great place to be. One gentleman, an old timer from Saint Hill who practises 'otherisms' came along to get some drilling with the meter and he had a great time. He was studying and researching in his spare time and claimed that he had 'the answer'. Whether he does or not, I don't know as I have not read his data. He had a great time and got the study he desired and that ws it.

I don't know who appears on this list totalling 'many pages' as SP Declares.

[Veda]

Programmer guy; that is a very good point.

Veda, it would be nice if you could pull out that list of SP Declares. The only thing I can think of regarding the SP Declares, is a list over at www.freezone.org, written in the early 80's, covering non-Scientologists?

Is all the marcab 'obessesive' stuff, data pulled from Marianne's success stories? www.ronsorg.org?

Most Ron's Org people I know have never had to be upfront about anything. The vast majority do not post on ther internet or even bother with the 'critics'. They could not care less. I can only think of one person to hand who is not open about what they do, and they are fairly new to the subject. I have a non-Scio friend who has questioned me about just about everything on the net and I gave honest answers.

I have not experienced a 'group think' in Ron's Org where the group dispose of people who do not agree with a certain aspect of that think.

The atmosphere, the study progress, the quality of the auditing, the sheer strength of all the dynamics of every individual, make it a great place to be. One gentleman, an old timer from Saint Hill who practises 'otherisms' came along to get some drilling with the meter and he had a great time. He was studying and researching in his spare time and claimed that he had 'the answer'. Whether he does or not, I don't know as I have not read his data. He had a great time and got the study he desired and that ws it.

I don't know who appears on this list totalling 'many pages' as SP Declares.

Re. the Ron's Orgs' list of SPs you mentioned, on the link you posted, perhaps you could provide additional directions to make finding it easier, or provide the names on the list.

As for the "Marcab 'obsessive' stuff" (and I notice that you spell it "correctly," with a "c"), it comes from Ron Hubbard, and then from Bill Robertson.

On this forum there are two categories, "Ron's Orgs & Free Zone" and then, "Independent Field." That those two categories exist says enough to alert anyone that there is a difference.

Ron's Orgs is, essentially, a benign personality cult that uses varying amounts of camouflage. It's been known to attempt to use parts of what is called the "Independent Field" as camouflage at times.

As for the list of SP Declares I saw, as I already wrote, consult Marianne Hagan.

P.S. "Benign personality cult" is used to differentiate from "Destructive personality cult," such as Scientology Inc., however, as Ron's Orgs does recognize Hubbard's (Ron's) "Ethics tech," the word "benign" may be misleading.

Ron's Orgs, and any followers of the "Commodore," have a dark guru as their guide.

And with their child-like trust in their dark and manipulative guru, they've done an effective job of discrediting the positives of basic auditing. Basic auditing, being auditing that does not violate the Auditors code.

[Alan]

I find the term "standard tech" laughable.

These people outside Co$ pick and choose what HCOBs and PLs they use.



Err! The key definition of "Standard" is; "that which is proper and adequate for a specific purpose."

Obviously you would need to pick and choose.

Of course it would be an intelligent step to observe as best you can what is the purpose of the practioner, group, and/or the leader.

Most of the upsets on this forum is from the fact of finding out some of LRHs hidden purposes and agendas, and the not so hidden purposes and agendas of DM.




The outrages include delivering advanced courses without application of the related tech references to posted personel and their training levels. somehow this is better than Co$ and these are better people doing it ????



In some cases it is much better, because the most basic thing about being able to be in session is a safe space.

Personally the whole of Scio and the field is a massive by-passed case. Few if any really have had a proper or adequate "life repair," if you had you would never have gotten yourselves into such effect positions.

You would never have gone into debt.

You would never have signed you rights away.





I want the field cleaned up. how about you guys? Are you willing to call these people out?

underdog



The public usually vote with their checkbook - it is self correcting.

Are you trained?

Do you audit others?

Do you have the stats to correct the field?

This is a subject in evolution - just like aviation - there will be plane crashes, there will be explosions, there will be terrible mistakes made - groups and fanatics will come into existence and some will grow - others will fade away - at best we are at the DC-2 stage - a non-viable, mainly subsidized entity -but slowly there will be a way for people to train and process each other for the better for those that want it.

Alan

[Terril park]

Dear Emma,
I can't find anywhere that tells me how to do it. Also I
tried reaching you in chat and couldn't find out how to post anything into the room. All I could do was ring a bell and wave. :(

I think the operating instructions were constructed by a Zen Master. I
am a mere grasshopper.

[tarbaby]

Dear Emma, I can't find anywhere that tells me how to do it. Also I tried reaching you in chat and couldn't find out how to post anything into the room. All I could do was ring a bell and wave. I think the operating instructions were constructed by a Zen Master. I am a mere grasshopper.

Ter, just click the quote button at the right hand bottom of the window. That takes you to a composition window. Everything inside the quote= ... /quote codes will be quoted.

Then if you want to quote and respond to specific sentences just cut and paste those codes to the beginning and end of that to which you want to respond. If it's not right you can check using the preview button at the bottom of the composition window. If the formatting is wrong, go back in and add the correct codes in the correct places.

HTH,
Dennis

[Terril park]

Ter, just click the quote button at the right hand bottom of the window. That takes you to a composition window. Everything inside the quote= ... /quote codes will be quoted.

Then if you want to quote and respond to specific sentences just cut and paste those codes to the beginning and end of that to which you want to respond. If it's not right you can check using the preview button at the bottom of the composition window. If the formatting is wrong, go back in and add the correct codes in the correct places.

HTH,
Dennis

Thanks!

[Alan]

Thanks!



Yeah! Terril! :blowkiss:

[Emma]

Thanks!

Well done Terril :D !

Another trick when you are formatting posts: highlight the text that you want to look "quoted" and click on the icon that looks like a speech bubble. This puts the right tags before and after the text.

After you've mucked around with this for a while you'll see what the right tags are and can just type them yourself.

[Terril park]

OK Emma Dear!!!!

Where is the plain english, or even aussie instructions of how to talk to you on chat?

I rang your bell and waved. Had no response. Couldn t even say hallo.

I feel humiliated. :confused: :no:

:slap:

[Emma]

Come back!!! I was away from the keyboard :)

[Terril park]

I see what you post.

I post but can't see how I send it?

[Emma]

Just type in the text line (next to the coloured boxes) and hit enter.

[Terril park]

Did that .... In all possible combinations?

[Emma]

can you read what i'm saying in the chatroom?

[Terril park]

Just did what you said. Didn't work

[Emma]

See private message

[Terril park]

Yes

[Emma]

Yes what?

[namaste]

I've been wondering about this myself for a little while, so I guess I am asking for some further clarification.

So the "Freezone" is pretty much Ron's Org only and not other independent type groups?
In other words, they practice LRH standard tech outside of the COS?

And persons that practice not-so-standard LRH tech and other types of spiritual tech outside of the Church would not be considered part of the Freezone?

I'm just asking; I noticed the two different listings on the forum index.
i.e.
Independent field (http://forum.exscn.net/forumdisplay.php?f=34)
Freezone (http://forum.exscn.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

Thanks for any feedback.


I just want to jump in and say thanks to all who responded to my question. I have a lot more data to work with now.

For the record, I am an ex Class 4 Org staff member 20+ yrs now.
I had originally joined COS in search of spiritual gain because I always thought that there was something more to our existence than just the ordinary day-to-day, work 9-5, eat, sleep, then die, stuff.
I had a few experiences that would suggest so.
Nothing really earth-shattering but just enough to know that there is a greater potential there.
I still do believe it, but wouldn't consider going back on lines at COS or whatever it's called nowadays.

I have been out of touch with the whole subject for many years but it is still something that is important to me and lately I have been looking into possible avenues for continuing my pursuit.
Of what I have found on my own so far, much of what "The Pilot" wrote
seems to make pretty good sense to me. (Any comments on that are most welcome.)

This is the best board that I have found and the only one that I have registered at.
It is a pleasure meeting and communicating with you folks. :hattip:
I am sure that I'll learn more and more as I go.

Thanks again for the contributions.

[programmer_guy]

Err! The key definition of "Standard" is; "that which is proper and adequate for a specific purpose."


In SCN "standard" tech is/was defined by CofS.

In the WOG world a standard is most typically set by agreements made by various companies (i.e. their representatives) on standards committees. This way a customer who becomes dissatisfied with one company (vendor) can dump them and go to another.

That's my 2 cents. :)

[Alan]

In SCN "standard" tech is/was defined by CofS.

In the WOG world a standard is most typically set by agreements made by various companies (i.e. their representatives) on standards committees. This way a customer who becomes dissatisfied with one company (vendor) can dump them and go to another.

That's my 2 cents. :)



An important word.

STANDARD: An ideal and model of excellence that can be used as a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated

http://www.onelook.com/?w=STANDARD&ls=a



Quick definitions (standard)

noun: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated

noun: the value behind the money in a monetary system

noun: the ideal in terms of which something can be judged (Example: "They live by the standards of their community")

adjective: regularly and widely used or sold (Example: "A standard size")

adjective: established or widely recognized as a model of authority or excellence (Example: "A standard reference work")

adjective: conforming to or constituting a standard of measurement or value; or of the usual or regularized or accepted kind (Example: "Windows of standard width")

adjective: conforming to the established language usage of educated native speakers (Example: "Standard English (American")

adjective: commonly used or supplied (Example: "Standard procedure")

[ot.vii]

Hi George,

Are you still on COS lines? Your profile says you were in Scientology until 2000 (y2k). Is the information you give on FZr's up to date? And if so do you have a source you could mention? I understand the confidentiality of some FZr's and the reasons for same, but it appears you have nothing to hide, so I'd like to know the above, with all due respect.

Roy

[Steven James]

Veda,

can you address the last lot of data Teril put forward to you?

I am inclined to agree with what Teril wrote until you put forth some proof.

I mean, Teril meets with the London picketers sometimes after they picket. We have a Rons Org student who studies in RO but intends to get auditing off an auditor in another group and who has no interest in doing the Robertson stuff. One lady I know practises other therapies. We have a psychologist connected to the group, though she does not study and is currently not receiving auditing, but is friends with people and comes to meets.

Your description of Ron/Robertson bunch of obsessives just does not tally with what happens.

[Alan]

Veda,

can you address the last lot of data Teril put forward to you?

I am inclined to agree with what Teril wrote until you put forth some proof.

I mean, Teril meets with the London picketers sometimes after they picket. We have a Rons Org student who studies in RO but intends to get auditing off an auditor in another group and who has no interest in doing the Robertson stuff. One lady I know practises other therapies. We have a psychologist connected to the group, though she does not study and is currently not receiving auditing, but is friends with people and comes to meets.

Your description of Ron/Robertson bunch of obsessives just does not tally with what happens.



Tsk, tsk you've become a bunch of friendly squirrels! :)

Now if you would just direct your attention to processing the positive, processing present time and the future.......let that past sci-fi stuff come to view when it comes to view - if it comes to view all will be spectacular....:blowkiss: :) :)

[Terril park]

Tsk, tsk you've become a bunch of friendly squirrels! :)


You're not a friendly Squirrel?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Alan: Tsk, tsk you've become a bunch of friendly squirrels!

Terril: You're not a friendly Squirrel?



I'm not a bunch of friendly squirrels! :) :)

[beyond_horizons]

Thanks!
OMG …. HOLY CRAP! Where has this thread been all my ESMB life!

In all my years on OCMB Terril, you finally learned how to use the QUOTE FEATURE! This is a really big win Terril ... I swear! That’s why it shouldn’t go un-acked!

I know it has been a tough ride on that one, but I'm sure your little needle is floating right now!

And -and-and once you step yourself completely out of that box , and the hubbo in your head finally departs this world ... all your learning disabilities gained from having been steeped so long, like tea from a T-bag in water, will clear up and completely disappear.

I is, for one, sooooo happy for you!

Happy ... happy ... happy!
:D

[programmer_guy]

STANDARD: An ideal and model of excellence that can be used as a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated


The following is what I had in mind.

From Wikipedia:
"Industry Standard"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry_standard


Standardisation or standardization, in the context related to technologies and industries, is the process of establishing a technical standard among competing entities in a market, where this will bring benefits without hurting competition.

[The Oracle]

The Freezone is a group of people that decided that they did not need to be policed by the Church of Scientology formal.

20% of them were right.

And that 20% is what hope we have at all.

They are the same people that were always there making it go right.

It has been the same people all along.

There are people that make it go right.

And there are people that make it go wrong.

Somehow someway they make it all go wrong.

They are the same people, every lifetime.

But you see we have evolution!

So the people that make it go right, even though less in numbers, have a greater Godlike power than those who somehow always over and over and over again manage to make it all go wrong.

Want to make the world a better place?

Just make it go right.

That has a greater power than twenty against you to make it all go wrong.

We are talking 300 Spartans here.

It still goes right.

Just look around.

It still goes right.

It will always go right.

It is not natural to a thetan to loose or remain suppressed.

[beyond_horizons]

But you see we have evolution!



True!

For clarification, it wasn't the freezone nor hubbo speak that saved from the depths of dispare! It was someone, something else not found in the tech.

As far as that theta word ... I beg to differ. Across the planet it is not natural for "the light of life" to remain suppressed. As you well know, for you it also happened before you got involved with scientology!

[Dulloldfart]

Now if you would just direct your attention to processing the positive, processing present time and the future.......let that past sci-fi stuff come to view when it comes to view - if it comes to view all will be spectacular....:blowkiss: :) :)

How exactly does one do this, Alan? Most Scn auditing is negative gain stuff. Exceptions I can think of are objective processes, Ls (I hear), the original OT Levels that got put aside. I remember some tape where the man said the whole idea of auditing was to find something the pc could do and make him do it better, which sounds like great positive processing, but when you're having the pc looking at past instances of mental turmoil of one kind or another you're not really following that.

So how does one concentrate on the positive in auditing someone?

Paul

[Dulloldfart]

Courses? How do they do that without violating copyright law? Just curious.

I do it by using Clearbird (http://freezone-america.org/Clearbird/Clearbird2004/index.htm) versions, and either use his checksheets or write my own. I thought long and hard about this years ago, and determined that it is the only sensible way to do it. The Clearbird versions aren't perfect, but they work, and in some ways they are better than the originals. For example, the contradictions have been removed in that you don't find something on page 143 that is opposite to what you read on page 76. When you've been studying the subject for twenty years, it doesn't bother you, as you can read an old bulletin and mentally ignore the bits you know have been superceded, but when you've been studying it for twenty days you can't do that and it is hellishly confusing.

On the subject of rewrites, by the way, I have found the Scientology Handbook very useful, and I haven't found anything inaccurate in it (beyond the fact that it is reworded from the original materials). It is even freely available online (http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/), courtesy of the CofS. Since this is something good they have done, I won't use my customary shark symbol for the CofS. :)

Use Clearbird materials, readily available off the Web anywhere in the world, and you don't have to worry about the new student routing on who might be a plant. Why? You're not doing anything illegal.

I don't know how people deliver "original" courses without using xeroxed packs and checksheets. Instant withhold. Who from?

http://www.fzglobal.org/miscpix/shark2.gif

Heh.

Paul

[freet43]

How exactly does one do this, Alan? Most Scn auditing is negative gain stuff. Exceptions I can think of are objective processes, Ls (I hear), the original OT Levels that got put aside. I remember some tape where the man said the whole idea of auditing was to find something the pc could do and make him do it better, which sounds like great positive processing, but when you're having the pc looking at past instances of mental turmoil of one kind or another you're not really following that.

So how does one concentrate on the positive in auditing someone?

Paul

In addition, creative processing is another example of positive case gain processing. The original OT levels, as well as the ones not yet released by the church are positive case gain. Have you seen this site?

http://www.upperbridge.org/OT8PLUS.htm

My understanding of the reason for negative gain first is to get the person unstuck from those things that they are stuck in, so that they are then free to work on positive case gain.

[Veda]

In addition, creative processing is another example of positive case gain processing. The original OT levels, as well as the ones not yet released by the church are positive case gain. Have you seen this site?

http://www.upperbridge.org/OT8PLUS.htm

My understanding of the reason for negative gain first is to get the person unstuck from those things that they are stuck in, so that they are then free to work on positive case gain.

David Mayo described the "Upper upper OT levels" as "googleygook," and I would suggest taking descriptions, as from the above link, with a grain of salt.

It's noteworthy, I think, that Hubbard, in his extensive "Scientology Intelligence tech," did not use psychic (or "OT") abilities in information gathering. In fact, in the Highly Confidential 1973 Issue, 'Intelligence, Its Role', Hubbard ridiculed the idea.

(See the 'Web sites and Links' section on this forum, under 'Brainwashing Manual': the 'Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology', page 90-91, End Note #73, re. Ingo Swann.

There is also relevant material at the end of the 'Layer Three' section of 'Parallels', with excerpts from the book, 'The Mind Race'.

And, also, some info re. the US/Soviet "mind race" (as in "space race") of the 1960s and 70s, in the Bibliography section of 'Parallels', under 'Mind Race'.

Governments, including police departments, have a long history of consulting those who claim to have psychic abilities. This goes back to World War 2.

Ingo Swann, a natural psychic since childhood, after leaving Scientology, described the "OT levels" (which included, of course, the super-hyped level of "OT 3") as "disappointing."

Note: This post more appropriately belongs in the 'C of S and the CIA' thread, and a link has been placed there.

[Steven James]

By the way Veda, this was the post of Terill's I was referring to;



VEDA

The Ron's Orgs members I've known were not up front, with outsiders, about what they believed. They used Scientology "PR tech," including "acceptable truth." Privately, they used terms, such as "meatballs," to describe those who didn't recognize Elron Elray (RON) as the leader for the "decontamination of this sector of the Galaxy."

BB
Are you the person who posts as " Muldoon" on ARS and ACT? You both appear to wish to black PR Ron's Orgs.

V
Plus, they sought to identify people such as David Mayo, and groups such as Metapsychology and Idenics, with the "Free Zone," when these did not wish to be so identified, since they did not regard themselves as being part of the "Free Zone."

BB
I don't know where and when you get your ideas and data from. Perhaps you can fill us in on that. Ron's Orgs do not concern themselves with metapsychology and Idenics. Maybe you met some individual once who said they were RO and he had some individual ideas.

V
I've paged through long lists of SP Declares by Ron's Orgs, the earliest of which were written by Bill Robertson. Some of these 'SP Declares' described people as being "directly monitored by Xenu."

BB
CBR did write one SP declare on Miscavidge. Seems quite possible he wrote others. He did seem to have a thing re Xenu. Why don't you post these
declares?

V
That said, the folks I've met in Ron's Orgs (going back to its founding) are mostly nice people.

Unfortunately, they tend to be fixated on e-meters as "truth detectors" - IMO, meters are useful devices in a *very* limited sense, but not "truth detectors."

They also tend to be caught up in Captain Bill's galactic conspiracy scenerio, and have been known to check their e-meters to see if this or that person was a Markabian agent, or not. (Exactly how their e-meters would determine this, I'm not sure.)

BB
The use of meters for security checks is standard practice for those who
follow standard tech. Many FZers, apart from Ron's Orgs are worried about OSA. OSA are particularly keen to infiltrate and damage Ron's Orgs. In our UK FZ group 6 have been visited by OSA on more than one occasion. There have been attempts to infiltrate ROs in Switzerland and Russia. The COS is trying to trademark the term Ron's Orgs, and doing so in an underhand way.
Legal issues are ongoing.

V
From my experience, they believe almost every word that Hubbard wrote or spoke, including Hubbard's scare stories about the "dwindling spiral" and "Hubbardian Hell" (where beings end up who refuse to walk the "Bridge," and become body cells, or worse.)

BB
This is common for many scientologists.

V

And they're obsessed with "the *problem* of body thetans," ("degraded beings" attached to their bodies and environment.) And I mean *very* obsessed, and to their ultimate detriment.

BB

Your positioning doing upper levels as being obsessed. If one is not interested in doing such levels one is unlikely to be a scientologist. In
other words this is just an ad-hominem attack on all scientologists.

V
Anyone is entitled to believe anything they please, however, I wish these folks - then and now - would be more up front about what they actually believe.

There was a poster on a.r.s., and, I think, a.c.t., called "ToBe," and he was celebrated as a gung-ho example to other Ron's Org's/Free Zoners. If anyone cares to track down his postings/success stories, they provide a small sample of a mind-set that is usually not exposed to outsiders.
It's a kind of fanaticism, and a silly fanaticism, mixed with the usual assortment of Hubbardian mind-tricks, AND, also mixed with what I consider to be some worthwhile data and potential beneficial *basic* counseling methods. So, yes, I do think there is *some* good in Ron's Orgs.

BB
" ToBe" is a personal friend, and it was I who posted this person's success stories. You write about this as "Muldoon" does. ToBe knew nothing much about ROs when they were posted.

V
However, that part of Scientology I least value: the auditor code-violating Sci-Fi levels, Xenu, etc., is the part that they, privately, most cherish.

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone. The lack of full honestly is a carry-over from Scientology and, after all, they are Scientologists, aren't they? And RON's Scientologists to boot.

If someone is going to be a kinder and gentler fan(atic) for RON, why not come out of the closet?

I mean, if *I* thought that Ron Hubbard was the savior for the Galaxy, I wouldn't have any problem applauding him, and I wouldn't hide my admiration for him.

C'mon guys. Come out of the closet. It's OK, really.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

BB
I'm certainly not in a closet. But what about you? Critical snipings from
an Anon Nick? Any reason you need to be anon?

[Terril park]

Veda,
You seem to have the agenda to bash scn tech. Why not post URLs for all the references you refer to?

David Mayo co-authored upper levels. I have never heard any reference to him describing them as "googleygook," Please support this statement.

Its OK to communicate on this forum. Please try.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

[Veda]

Veda,
You seem to have the agenda to bash scn tech. Why not post URLs for all the references you refer to?

David Mayo co-authored upper levels. I have never heard any reference to him describing them as "googleygook," Please support this statement.

Its OK to communicate on this forum. Please try.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

The reference was to the levels above "OT 8" - the *upper* upper levels.

David Mayo co-authored "NOTs" while still very much under the influence of Hubbard's "cosmology." He did not co-author the OT levels. The positive, or creative, or "drill, drill, drill" aspect of the early "OT" material derives largely from earlier sources.

I do *not* discount extra-ordinary or paranormal experiences or abilities; I *do* recognize Scientology's failure to "deliver what it promised" in this area.

The "tech" (Sea Org-era) is flawed and booby-trapped.

If you can't deal with that, then that's your problem, not mine.

[freet43]

The reference was to the levels above "OT 8" - the *upper* upper levels.

David Mayo co-authored "NOTs" while still very much under the influence of Hubbard's "cosmology." He did not co-author the OT levels. The positive, or creative, or "drill, drill, drill" aspect of the early "OT" material derives largely from earlier sources.

I do *not* discount extra-ordinary or paranormal experiences or abilities, only Scientology's failure to "deliver what it promised."

The "tech" (Sea Org-era) is flawed and booby-trapped.

If you can't deal with that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Veda,

I agree with what you say about the Sea-Org tech - much has been altered. Even the original OTVII, which was a necessary step for OTVIII had been removed from the current grade chart. NOTS was never supposed to be a replacement for the original OT levels. It was later developed as an ADDITIONAL step.

The upper OT levels were being developed during the time that David Mayo was very heavily on the lines with LRH.

When, where, and do you have any record of David Mayo ever stating that the upper OT levels were gobbledegook? That does not align with anything I've read/heard regarding David Mayo over the years.

This description on that website is by another Cl XII. As you may know, most Cl XIIs have been declared by the current regime, however I am aware that some of them are still in touch with each other and in various ways, active, such as in the Freezone.

Are you sure you are not confusing what David said about the RO upper OT levels - with the LRH/David Mayo developed upper OT levels?

[freet43]

I do *not* discount extra-ordinary or paranormal experiences or abilities, only Scientology's failure to "deliver what it promised."

.


What levels have you done and when?

Just curious in context of your comment above.

[Dulloldfart]

In addition, creative processing is another example of positive case gain processing. The original OT levels, as well as the ones not yet released by the church are positive case gain. Have you seen this site?

http://www.upperbridge.org/OT8PLUS.htm


Yes, thank you for the reminder re creative processing. I have read all those articles by Pierre Ethier before, but I have not seen that specific site. Until he gives acceptable (i.e. somewhat verifiable) data re where those supposed materials for the "levels above OT8" come from, I will reserve judgement.

I would be very interested to hear his current views on the validity of OT3 theory, though.

Paul

[Terril park]

You have still not quoted refs to Mayo saying " Gobbledygook".

You have no idea what I can or cannot deal with. Thats in fact plain ad hominem.

State in detail with references what you want to say.

Lol! " When in doubt communicate."

[Veda]

Veda,

I agree with what you say about the Sea-Org tech - much has been altered. Even the original OTVII, which was a necessary step for OTVIII had been removed from the current grade chart. NOTS was never supposed to be a replacement for the original OT levels. It was later developed as an ADDITIONAL step.

The upper OT levels were being developed during the time that David Mayo was very heavily on the lines with LRH.

When, where, and do you have any record of David Mayo ever stating that the upper OT levels were gobbledegook? That does not align with anything I've read/heard regarding David Mayo over the years.

This description on that website is by another Cl XII. As you may know, most Cl XIIs have been declared by the current regime, however I am aware that some of them are still in touch with each other and in various ways, active, such as in the Freezone.

Are you sure you are not confusing what David said about the RO upper OT levels - with the LRH/David Mayo developed upper OT levels?

The statement was made regarding Hubbard's material, above "OT 8," which Mayo examined while with Hubbard, at his hide out after the 1977 FBI raids.

I talked with David Mayo on several occasions in the 1983-1985 period (and others interviewed him at later times), and no, I don't have tape recordings of our conversations. However, similar statements can be located, if anyone is willing to look.

The "tech" that you so value, and trust, is secondary to Hubbard's actual agenda. There's some "good stuff" in Scientology, but Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and the hidden agenda was primary.

P.S. By Sea Org-era is meant post 1967, and probably a more accurate date for the "change" would be 1963-1966.

I'm sorry if that ruffles some feathers.

[Terril park]

The statement was made regarding Hubbard's material, above "OT 8," which Mayo examined while with Hubbard, at his hide out after the 1977 FBI raids.

I talked with David Mayo on several occasions in the 1983-1985 period (and others interviewed him at later times), and no, I don't have tape recordings of our conversations. However, similar statements can be located, if anyone is willing to look.

The "tech" that you so value, and trust, is secondary to Hubbard's actual agenda. There's some "good stuff" in Scientology, but Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and the hidden agenda was primary.

P.S. By Sea Org-era is meant post 1967, and probably a more accurate date for the "change" would be 1963-1966.

I'm sorry if that ruffles some feathers.

Such statements by Mayo are not available to the best of my knowledge.
And I've been connected with the FZ for many years. Again point out some URLs.

That Hubbard had several agendas is not news.

Alan is pretty upfront on his identity and his history.

Why are you hiding anon?

Are you the identity " Muldoon"?

You're one who wants to put out his/hers agenda. Far more effective
with a real person attached.

[Alanzo]

I find that I agree with pretty much everything Veda writes.

I don't think the name he posts under has anything to do with the ideas he writes about.

I think that to make his name an issue is ad hominem, or at least a large, stinky, red herring.

[Zinjifar]

The statement was made regarding Hubbard's material, above "OT 8," which Mayo examined while with Hubbard, at his hide out after the 1977 FBI raids.

I talked with David Mayo on several occasions in the 1983-1985 period (and others interviewed him at later times), and no, I don't have tape recordings of our conversations. However, similar statements can be located, if anyone is willing to look.

The "tech" that you so value, and trust, is secondary to Hubbard's actual agenda. There's some "good stuff" in Scientology, but Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and the hidden agenda was primary.

P.S. By Sea Org-era is meant post 1967, and probably a more accurate date for the "change" would be 1963-1966.

I'm sorry if that ruffles some feathers.

From my position as a 'never-been' Scientologist, I suppose I can't be considered 'authoritative' on matters of 'Tech'.

OK... that's OK :)

But,one of the recurring threads in Scientology, for better or not is that, 'how could something like this have 'worked' if it *wasn't* hooked into something real?'

This was especially transparent in the 'Dorian' era, where the idea that one fraud could accomplish so much and fool so many, over decades was considered so incredible that even *critics* (although, few of them) were willing to consider that Scientology was *not* a Hubbard invention, but the child of a conspiracy of brilliant manipulators, using Ron as their frontman/pawn.

There is little doubt, nowdays, that the Scientology Mind-Fuck *does* work, and, it's difficult for those not afflicted to comprehend 'how' that could come to be as the creation of a single man.

The 'Dorian' op played to that seeming disconnect. Hubbard didn't 'invent' Scientology; a 'cabal' did. :)

It's the kind of thought process that appeals to Scientologists, who are *trained* to believing in intergalactic 'cabals' from the get-go, but, in fact, it's fairly easy to see the *evolution* of Scientology from its inception as a 'self-help' pseudo-freudianism for the masses, over its evolution to 'science' and 'spiritual path' once Dianetics was no longer owned by 'Ron' to the inception of the 'e-meter' and the 'movement' that led to the 60s and the psychedelic Xenu 'incidents'.

Scientology did *not* srping full-blown from any mind. It evolved as Ron saw what worked (to gather his flock) and keep them in control.

Nothing about Scientology is a 'finished work'. It is and always was a 'work in progress'.

That 'Current Management' continues to 'change' the 'Tech' to serve current purposes is very Scientological.

What would *Ron* do?

Zinj

[freet43]

The statement was made regarding Hubbard's material, above "OT 8," which Mayo examined while with Hubbard, at his hide out after the 1977 FBI raids.

I talked with David Mayo on several occasions in the 1983-1985 period (and others interviewed him at later times), and no, I don't have tape recordings of our conversations. However, similar statements can be located, if anyone is willing to look.

The "tech" that you so value, and trust, is secondary to Hubbard's actual agenda. There's some "good stuff" in Scientology, but Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and the hidden agenda was primary.

Many others have also talked with David Mayo over the years, and that was not an impression that they had from him. I'm talking about other Cl XIIs. Thus, I am curious as to your training/processing levels.

Yes, I value the tech that I've experienced - the training and processing I've had - and how I've seen it benefit many others I've known. What I've applied in my life in the years I'd been out has also worked very well.

However, I do not have blind trust. That is why I left the CO$ 28 years ago when I saw where the organization was heading. I wanted no part of that and had been out until very recently. I've posted about all that on this forum already - no reason to repeat it here.

I've also met several OTs in the last few months - OTs that have helped their family and friends up to the higher levels, outside of the church. I've met family and friends. One couple, for example, that had been in the SO for 10 years and received no auditing or training and worked as slaves for no exchange. Then, they were out for 12 years and finally their brother-in-law helped them get up through OT VI. They are now doing very well indeed. Interacting with these groups of OTs has been a joy. It's a keyout and very thetaful to be around. Wouldn't one value that?

So, I see those kinds of things in the FZ.

I have no reason to doubt the intentions of those I have met - no hidden agendas there.

[Terril park]

The "tech" that you so value, and trust, is secondary to Hubbard's actual agenda. There's some "good stuff" in Scientology, but Hubbard had a hidden agenda, and the hidden agenda was primary.
.

Well a case can be made for that and many have. And he had many agenda's. He was not as pure as the driven snow. But he gave us something. He started something.

Where is the point of dwelling on his negatives? That may be something some need to address in session.

The broad Freezone is about positives.

This quote is from: 520303 HCL 1 - Scientology - Milestone One. You also can
find it in New R&D-Volume 9, p. 456

"If you will just stay with me on this line, up to the first
milestone in Scientology, and bring yourself up to a high level of ability
and apply yourself to that, you will be free - free from me and from
Scientology too!" Milestone 1 - LRH

[Zinjifar]

Well a case can be made for that and many have. And he had many agenda's. He was not as pure as the driven snow. But he gave us something. He started something.

Where is the point of dwelling on his negatives? That may be something some need to address in session.

The broad Freezone is about positives.

This quote is from: 520303 HCL 1 - Scientology - Milestone One. You also can
find it in New R&D-Volume 9, p. 456

"If you will just stay with me on this line, up to the first
milestone in Scientology, and bring yourself up to a high level of ability
and apply yourself to that, you will be free - free from me and from
Scientology too!" Milestone 1 - LRH

WHAT I SAY IN THESE PAGES HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE, IT HOLDS TRUE TODAY, IT WILL STILL HOLD TRUE IN THE YEAR 2000 AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO HOLD TRUE FROM THERE ON OUT.

NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE IN SCIENTOLOGY, ON STAFF OR NOT, THIS POLICY LETTER HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOU.

------------------------------

We're not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn't cute or something to do for lack of something better.

The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.

This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.

Remember, this is our first chance to do so in all the endless trillions of years of the past. Don't muff it now because it seems unpleasant or unsocial to do Seven, Eight, Nine and Ten.

Do them and we'll win.
- Ron

Why dwell on His 'negatives'?

A degenerate gambler is someone who *thinks* he recognizes synergistic 'patterns' in fate, reality or 'luck' by only rembering the 'good' things.

The 'wins' support the 'system'; the losses are swept under the psychic carpet.

It's a 'no loss system!!!'

And, it works; till it can't.

This is Scientology.

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

Thing is, if Mayo said that, then the attribution can and should be made.

[Terril park]

I find that I agree with pretty much everything Veda writes.

I don't think the name he posts under has anything to do with the ideas he writes about.

I think that to make his name an issue is ad hominem, or at least a large, stinky, red herring.

That would often be the case. And I have no problem with people being
anon, and I never reject anyone on our FZ private forums on that basis. I spent a while anon as that was needed to protect others.

This person though is claiming special knowledge and contact with the likes of Mayo.

He niether backs this up with URLs or an actual identity. And he denigrates and attacks.

He has not despite being asked given a reason for being anon.

Sean Connery commenting on an offer in a role in in a Hitchcock film
insisted on seeing the script. His comment was , " I might have been playing Bambi".

So far this " Veda" has shown he is not " Bambi".


http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

[freet43]

Thing is, if Mayo said that, then the attribution can and should be made.

Fluff, who's saying that it shouldn't be IF David Mayo said so - that is a very big IF and we are supposed to believe Veda, who is only trying to make his case that the link of info on Pierre's site is not valid.

It's very easy for someone to come on line and say "so-and-so" said.....so - does it mean there's any truth to it?

[freet43]

From my position as a 'never-been' Scientologist, I suppose I can't be considered 'authoritative' on matters of 'Tech'.

Zinj

Zinj,

I've been very curious about several things.

1. For someone who's "never-been" you often have a deeper understanding of things Scn than what one would expect.

2. Why are you so interested in the subject of Scn, what goes on, and this forum, given that you've never been in and profess no interest in being in.

3. How old are you? I would guess you are fairly young - is that correct?

I ask such questions to get a better understanding of where people are coming from. Feel free to shoot questions back at me...

[beyond_horizons]

You have still not quoted refs to Mayo saying " Gobbledygook".

Maybe if you listen to the lecture he gave , and clear some words, it might help you "zone in" on the discussion. :)

http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/mayo%20audio%20lecture.ram

[The Oracle]

Alan, I think your understanding was rather perfect.

[Steven James]

Veda,

the following has been posted twice now and you seem to want to ignore it;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terril park
VEDA

The Ron's Orgs members I've known were not up front, with outsiders, about what they believed. They used Scientology "PR tech," including "acceptable truth." Privately, they used terms, such as "meatballs," to describe those who didn't recognize Elron Elray (RON) as the leader for the "decontamination of this sector of the Galaxy."

BB
Are you the person who posts as " Muldoon" on ARS and ACT? You both appear to wish to black PR Ron's Orgs.

V
Plus, they sought to identify people such as David Mayo, and groups such as Metapsychology and Idenics, with the "Free Zone," when these did not wish to be so identified, since they did not regard themselves as being part of the "Free Zone."

BB
I don't know where and when you get your ideas and data from. Perhaps you can fill us in on that. Ron's Orgs do not concern themselves with metapsychology and Idenics. Maybe you met some individual once who said they were RO and he had some individual ideas.

V
I've paged through long lists of SP Declares by Ron's Orgs, the earliest of which were written by Bill Robertson. Some of these 'SP Declares' described people as being "directly monitored by Xenu."

BB
CBR did write one SP declare on Miscavidge. Seems quite possible he wrote others. He did seem to have a thing re Xenu. Why don't you post these
declares?

V
That said, the folks I've met in Ron's Orgs (going back to its founding) are mostly nice people.

Unfortunately, they tend to be fixated on e-meters as "truth detectors" - IMO, meters are useful devices in a *very* limited sense, but not "truth detectors."

They also tend to be caught up in Captain Bill's galactic conspiracy scenerio, and have been known to check their e-meters to see if this or that person was a Markabian agent, or not. (Exactly how their e-meters would determine this, I'm not sure.)

BB
The use of meters for security checks is standard practice for those who
follow standard tech. Many FZers, apart from Ron's Orgs are worried about OSA. OSA are particularly keen to infiltrate and damage Ron's Orgs. In our UK FZ group 6 have been visited by OSA on more than one occasion. There have been attempts to infiltrate ROs in Switzerland and Russia. The COS is trying to trademark the term Ron's Orgs, and doing so in an underhand way.
Legal issues are ongoing.

V
From my experience, they believe almost every word that Hubbard wrote or spoke, including Hubbard's scare stories about the "dwindling spiral" and "Hubbardian Hell" (where beings end up who refuse to walk the "Bridge," and become body cells, or worse.)

BB
This is common for many scientologists.

V

And they're obsessed with "the *problem* of body thetans," ("degraded beings" attached to their bodies and environment.) And I mean *very* obsessed, and to their ultimate detriment.

BB

Your positioning doing upper levels as being obsessed. If one is not interested in doing such levels one is unlikely to be a scientologist. In
other words this is just an ad-hominem attack on all scientologists.

V
Anyone is entitled to believe anything they please, however, I wish these folks - then and now - would be more up front about what they actually believe.

There was a poster on a.r.s., and, I think, a.c.t., called "ToBe," and he was celebrated as a gung-ho example to other Ron's Org's/Free Zoners. If anyone cares to track down his postings/success stories, they provide a small sample of a mind-set that is usually not exposed to outsiders.
It's a kind of fanaticism, and a silly fanaticism, mixed with the usual assortment of Hubbardian mind-tricks, AND, also mixed with what I consider to be some worthwhile data and potential beneficial *basic* counseling methods. So, yes, I do think there is *some* good in Ron's Orgs.

BB
" ToBe" is a personal friend, and it was I who posted this person's success stories. You write about this as "Muldoon" does. ToBe knew nothing much about ROs when they were posted.

V
However, that part of Scientology I least value: the auditor code-violating Sci-Fi levels, Xenu, etc., is the part that they, privately, most cherish.

There is no pleasant way to say that others are not being completely forthright, and that is what I'm saying about Ron's Orgs/Free Zone. The lack of full honestly is a carry-over from Scientology and, after all, they are Scientologists, aren't they? And RON's Scientologists to boot.

If someone is going to be a kinder and gentler fan(atic) for RON, why not come out of the closet?

I mean, if *I* thought that Ron Hubbard was the savior for the Galaxy, I wouldn't have any problem applauding him, and I wouldn't hide my admiration for him.

C'mon guys. Come out of the closet. It's OK, really.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

BB
I'm certainly not in a closet. But what about you? Critical snipings from
an Anon Nick? Any reason you need to be anon?

[Voltaire's Child]

Fluff, who's saying that it shouldn't be IF David Mayo said so - that is a very big IF and we are supposed to believe Veda, who is only trying to make his case that the link of info on Pierre's site is not valid.

It's very easy for someone to come on line and say "so-and-so" said.....so - does it mean there's any truth to it?

I just think that if Veda is aware of something Mayo said and is posting about it , that Veda ought to say where this came from, like what book or article or whatnot. That's where I was comin' from on that. Nothing more.

[Zinjifar]

Zinj,

I've been very curious about several things.

1. For someone who's "never-been" you often have a deeper understanding of things Scn than what one would expect.

2. Why are you so interested in the subject of Scn, what goes on, and this forum, given that you've never been in and profess no interest in being in.

3. How old are you? I would guess you are fairly young - is that correct?

I ask such questions to get a better understanding of where people are coming from. Feel free to shoot questions back at me...

I'll be 57-years-young this year :)

The rest would get complicated. I've always been interested in religion/spirituality and, since the mid 60s, interested in various 'techs', groups, cults, methods etc. For groups/cults, mostly in an anthropological 'group-dynamics' way. I've never belonged to any, but, I've known many people who've been involved in many groups/systems and they fascinate me; usually in a benign way.

Most of the 70s and early 80s I was in Europe and was friends with people with all manner of group involvements, from TMers to any of a half-dozen flavors of communism/marxism.

Strangely enough, I never had much contact with Scientology or Scientologists, but, nothing prepares a person to 'comm' with a practicing Scientologist better than discussion with what was, at the time, the DKP (Deutsche Kommunistishe Partei - the E-German-run/Moscow-true group.)

Until the early 80s my interest in 'cults' was relatively positive, but, that was the time of the raids on the Krishnas, the Bhagwan fiascos and the exposure of the 'Children of god', not to mention Jonestown, and, I ended up with a much more negative impression.

I still hadn't had much contact or info on Scientology, but, around '84, when I came back from Germany with my son, I happened to read an SF novel by one of my favorite authors, Norman Spinrad, called 'The Mind Game', which was a lightly veiled story about Scientology. While it was marginally positive, and, it missed most of the actual 'SF' type wild and wacky stuff in the Scn doctrine, it also revealed the 'Disconnection Policy' and the kind of conspiracy type harassment of critics and megalomanic dreams of 'Clearing the Planet' which caught my interest and sensitized me to 'news stories' about Scientology. Still, there were'nt many, and I didn't particularly care, except about 'Disconnection', which I found horrific.

Around '95 I was involved in setting a lot of people up to use the internet and I happened into alt.religion.scientology during the time of the first heavy-handed attacks by the 'Church', and I took notice. But, I wasn't an 'active' critic, since I didn't feel like getting harassed myself, so, I just chatted with various participants, spoke my mind at times and watched the goings-on.

And, I did some graphics which were not well-loved by the 'Church' :)

Around '98 the contract I'd been working under ran out and I was self-employed and Keith Henson was assaulted and then limited in his picketing ability in LA by a restraining order, so I did my first picket with one other newbie at CC. It was amusing and creepy and everything I'd heard about, so, I made sure to show up when the '98 Hubbfest picket took place and finally met a lot of the people I'd been talking to.

Soon thereafter the 'Church' began stalking me and doing various other 'fair game' handlings and I ended up with an interesting few years playing with OSA.

In the meantime I met lots of ex-scientologists, both still practicing and not, and was exposed to a lot more of the inner workings, and, like all such things, it fascinated me, so I kept looking.

Since 2000 or so I've been much more personally interested for reasons I'm not going to go into, but, also far less 'active' as a critic, except to express my opinions and discuss Scientology and the 'Church'.

I'm *here* because I like discussing Scientology and like a lot of Scientologists I've met.

That's the short version. HTH

Zinj

[The Oracle]

Steven,

There are people PRO and people ANTI.

They can both have ser facs!

This area of religion and oppression and MAGICK can really stir up people's ser facs.

When people make you wrong or try to unmock you whatever your platform is, you are just being hit with MAKE WRONG.

It's the glue that holds all of the black magic together.

And I see it on both sides.

There are plenty of people around who wish you well whatever paths you choose to walk.

Take the focus from your enemies and they loose their power.

The thing that is very unattractive on any person who has to make others wrong, is that the little justice chief inside of them comes out as judge, jury, and the whole damned court to pronounce guilt.

We are all guilty.

Because we are all cause.

So the internal justice chief in all of us is an entity with a useless hat.

That anyone needs defend themselves is all illusion.

That any one of us is holy enough to condem the rest is illusion.

No one has walked a mile in anyone elses shoes.

It's your life, do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.

All the best!

[beyond_horizons]

There are plenty of people around who wish you well whatever paths you choose to walk.

..............

So the internal justice chief in all of us is an entity with a useless hat.

..............

It's your life, do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.

All the best!

There are those who walked a path and there are those who sell a path. Then there are those who discovered some pitfalls and casualties along the path and others stuck in the mud spinning their wheels over unnecessary illusions in the form of lies, shore stories and deceit that line the path.

But the best thing about contrasting opposites is that we get to see the dynamic range between the plus and the minus, learn something from the exercise and evolve!

And if and when evolution happens those little justice chiefs that live within say, well done soul mates!

;)

[Voltaire's Child]

Zinj,

I've been very curious about several things.

1. For someone who's "never-been" you often have a deeper understanding of things Scn than what one would expect.

2. Why are you so interested in the subject of Scn, what goes on, and this forum, given that you've never been in and profess no interest in being in.

3. How old are you? I would guess you are fairly young - is that correct?

I ask such questions to get a better understanding of where people are coming from. Feel free to shoot questions back at me...

Zinj posts on a lot of forums and has for years.

He acts friendly toward Scientologists on those forums then, later, tells them that they aren't what he thought they were, he doesn't want to be friends, etc.

I know for a fact that John and I weren't the only recipient of this particular type of communication.

When he runs out of CofS members to talk to and do that with, he turns his attentions to Freezoners.

It always starts out quite friendly but often turns into negativity toward the Scn'ists to whom he'd been posting.

As to the reason for his interest- that's a mystery, both to readers of the forums and, I suspect, to Zinj himself.

[Voltaire's Child]

There are those who walked a path and there are those who sell a path. Then there are those who discovered some pitfalls and casualties along the path and others stuck in the mud spinning their wheels over unnecessary illusions in the form of lies, shore stories and deceit that line the path.

But the best thing about contrasting opposites is that we get to see the dynamic range between the plus and the minus, learn something from the exercise and evolve!

And if and when evolution happens those little justice chiefs that live within say, well done soul mates!

;)


As to selling a path, I can name several critics- including you- who've recommended certain paths to me...

Hmmm....

[beyond_horizons]

As to selling a path, I can name several critics- including you- who've recommended certain paths to me...

Hmmm....

Hmmm ... Nope …. I’ve never recommended any path to you.

My path is my career and the church of the WWW. For a donation of $19.95 a month for a dial up, Google has long since replaced scientology and hubbo speak thus providing all the answers to all the questions I could ever hope to ask ... and much, much, more than my wildest dreams could have envisioned! :D Anyways, nuff about all that! :melodramatic:

The otees and the ED of Preserve, Protect and Promote Standard Tech needed a reference about Mayo "googleygooking," the tech so as to settle their bla, bla, yada, yada, argument. Although I was unable to post one with that word, I did my best with an audio that seemed to paint a pretty clear picture about what that might have been about! Or perhaps I passed a word that I didn't fully understand?

Is it me or what? Sometimes I swear, these cooky cutter oatee guys have'nt a clue as to what they are communicating about! :eyeroll: :no:

Perhaps a translation of the audio in words and posted excerpts is appropriate? There seem to be more questions raised there about life in the box!
:confused:

[Terril park]

The otees and the ED of Preserve, Protect and Promote Standard Tech needed a reference about Mayo "googleygooking," the tech so as to settle their bla, bla, yada, yada, argument. Although I was unable to post one with that word, I did my best with an audio that seemed to paint a pretty clear picture about what that might have been about! Or perhaps I passed a word that I didn't fully understand?

Is it me or what? Sometimes I swear, these cooky cutter oatee guys have'nt a clue as to what they are communicating about! :eyeroll: :no:

Perhaps a translation of the audio in words and posted excerpts is appropriate? There seem to be more questions raised there about life in the box!
:confused:

Mayo didn't use that word. His comment was that the OT8 he delivered didn't produce the results he would wish for or suspect. It wasn't clear what version of this level he used.

His final comments was that the tech should be delivered from a point of being virtuous, and then maybe the promises of upper levels beyond OT 7 may be realised

He of course was one of the most important originators of the Freezone.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

[Veda]

Mayo didn't use that word. His comment was that the OT8 he delivered didn't produce the results he would wish for or suspect. It wasn't clear what version of this level he used.

His final comments was that the tech should be delivered from a point of being virtuous, and then maybe the promises of upper levels beyond OT 7 may be realised

He of course was one of the most important originators of the Freezone.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

David Mayo did not regard himself as part of the "Freezone," yet that does not stop certain persons in the "Freezone" from attempting to co-opt him as somehow having been part of the "Freezone."

In fact, Mayo upset many in the so called "Freezone" with his honest comments about Hubbard and the "tech," particularly the OT levels.

Many were displeased when he stated that some of the most impressive "Success Stories," that had appeared in issues of 'Advance magazine', and other places, were fabricated.

Others were upset by his comments about Hubbard, made during his 1986 interview with Russell Miller. And while key persons in the "Freezone" like to refer to some early statements by David Mayo (from 1983/84) and certain - edited, and "sanitized" - comments from other years, the interview with Miller is ignored as though it didn't exist.

Mayo's last encounter with the "Freezone" was during 1987, at an event in Europe, called a Freezone convention, and run by Ron's Orgs. Mayo sarcastically referred to the Ron's Orgs people (under Captain Bill Robertson), as "Billies."

Mayo definitely valued aspects of the "auditing tech," particularly the techniques related to Dianetics and the processes that became the "lower Grades." However, his respect for a portion of the subject was not sufficient to allow him to escape the shocked disapproval of the "Billies," once the subjects of Hubbard and the OT levels were broached.

Mayo, despite being an advocate, generally, of "auditing," was not willing to lie about it, or mislead others. He simply told the "Billies" what he had observed and concluded. And the "Billies" did not like what they heard.

The final straw was when Mayo described the time that Hubbard confessed to him that he could not exteriorize. This, apparently, upset the "Freezone" gathering considerably, and it would be the last "Freezone" event attended by Mayo.

Of course, according to "Freezone" revisionist history, none of this happened.

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Steven,

There are people PRO and people ANTI.

They can both have ser facs!

This area of religion and oppression and MAGICK can really stir up people's ser facs.

When people make you wrong or try to unmock you whatever your platform is, you are just being hit with MAKE WRONG.

It's the glue that holds all of the black magic together.

And I see it on both sides.

There are plenty of people around who wish you well whatever paths you choose to walk.

Take the focus from your enemies and they loose their power.

The thing that is very unattractive on any person who has to make others wrong, is that the little justice chief inside of them comes out as judge, jury, and the whole damned court to pronounce guilt.

We are all guilty.

Because we are all cause.

So the internal justice chief in all of us is an entity with a useless hat.

That anyone needs defend themselves is all illusion.

That any one of us is holy enough to condem the rest is illusion.

No one has walked a mile in anyone elses shoes.

It's your life, do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.

All the best!

I think I'm starting to get it.

[beyond_horizons]

The final straw was when Mayo described the time that Hubbard confessed to him that he could not exteriorize. This, apparently, upset the "Freezone" gathering considerably, and it would be the last "Freezone" event attended by Mayo.

Of course, according to "Freezone" revisionist history, none of this happened.

It's part of Ron's religious scripture if you intend to preserve, promote, and protect standard tech. That's ingrained in one's head in that FEBC course pack somewhere isn't it?

http://www.xenu.net/archive/image_edit/

Gotta focus on lies, acceptable truths and shore stories if your into control! :no:

[beyond_horizons]

His comment was that the OT8 he delivered didn't produce the results he would wish for or suspect.


I recall that “win” you posted about that freezoner exteriorizing out of his car, on a stalled freeway, hovering over to the scene of an accident and reaching out with a "theta hand" to save a baby from slamming into the pavement below after falling over a bridge!

But what about the list of comments Mayo made before the last comment in that audio?

It would appear when translated into real world terms none of the OT levels produced the results hubbo dreamed up, inferred, bs'ed or suspected as Mayo said in any lasting way.

Its been IMHO that in the hubbo sci fi environment, hard core scientologists and hubbo clones aren’t qualified to be messing with people’s minds. Seems to me that whatever that tech gives in the beginning it takes away in the end!


His final comments was that the tech should be delivered from a point of being virtuous, and then maybe the promises of upper levels beyond OT 7 may be realized

Virtues aren’t taught in scientology. They are taught in other religions, philosophies and even high performance management seminars in this 21 st century.

That Christ guy taught that if you follow the 10 commandments you experience the light of heaven!

Warren Buffet is qualified to promise that you could be a billionaire by investing in the stock market.

A brilliant writer is qualified to promise that you could make a million dollars and demonstrates this by writing a Harry Potter series.

John Glen can promise that if you study math and science you could become an astronaut, scientist, engineer and technician who shall again walk on the Moon in 2012 and on Mars in 2020.

But try your best Terril, to define your idea of the “promise of OT” without using hubbo speak ... other than ... if you focus on lie’s, you can control others? :no:

[Terril park]

I recall that “win” you posted about that freezoner exteriorizing out of his car, on a stalled freeway, hovering over to the scene of an accident and reaching out with a "theta hand" to save a baby from slamming into the pavement below after falling over a bridge!

But what about the list of comments Mayo made before the last comment in that audio?

It would appear when translated into real world terms none of the OT levels produced the results hubbo dreamed up, inferred, bs'ed or suspected as Mayo said in any lasting way.

Its been IMHO that in the hubbo sci fi environment, hard core scientologists and hubbo clones aren’t qualified to be messing with people’s minds. Seems to me that whatever that tech gives in the beginning it takes away in the end!



Virtues aren’t taught in scientology. They are taught in other religions, philosophies and even high performance management seminars in this 21 st century.

That Christ guy taught that if you follow the 10 commandments you experience the light of heaven!

Warren Buffet is qualified to promise that you could be a billionaire by investing in the stock market.

A brilliant writer is qualified to promise that you could make a million dollars and demonstrates this by writing a Harry Potter series.

John Glen can promise that if you study math and science you could become an astronaut, scientist, engineer and technician who shall again walk on the Moon in 2012 and on Mars in 2020.

But try your best Terril, to define your idea of the “promise of OT” without using hubbo speak ... other than ... if you focus on lie’s, you can control others? :no:

You've spent years on knocking mine and others beliefs. So I never responded much.

You have anything positive to say about anything?

[beyond_horizons]

You've spent years on knocking mine and others beliefs. So I never responded much.

You have anything positive to say about anything?

Don’t be silly, of course I do about other religions and other beliefs. I post about them all the time and vist various web sites and message boards where people discuss stuff about things.

Actually, I also attended a talk by Mayo at the Palladium on Hollywood Blvd. about the time Capt Bill was keeping staff up all night on the ASHO parking lot upper level on Martian watch … early 80ish it was. He said some things that made me think about “the scientology religion” that weren’t politically correct even then. He was talking about some of the problems showing up at flag based upon the funny semantics of hubbo speak!

But I hope you don’t mind if I keep trying to “clarify” stuff about your particular beliefs based upon those old time post-and-runs of yours over there on OCMB.

And I believe the reason various folks are inspired to create these message boards, in this age of true communications, is for the purpose of illuminating the fluff, cracks and gaps between various religious beliefs in the pursuit of divining what went/goes wrong and what resonates as right/wrong in religious beliefs that now has people doing hard time in black t-shirts over there in the RPF.

Think of it like a process of separating the real from the imagined. Since you’re here, your part of the process. You’ve chosen to be the closest thing to the hubbard mindset posting here. So remember 'patience is virtue'!

So then to pick up the conversation from several years ago ... Did you actually observe the baby stop before hitting the pavement? Was the theta hand visible? Was it like a bright lightening bolt accompanied by a thunderous noise? Did the baby body seem to levitate back up over the bridge into the parent’s arms? Or was it deposited gently into the arms of a paramedic? Someone must have witnessed it, don't you think? Or do you just believe?

In addition to what Mayo describes as the problem with expectations and folks getting to thinking it's their fault for not being able to do the kind of stuff you like to post "wins" about … I believe your report of ‘saving the baby’ would have been better delivered in a CNN News Break or a front page story in the New York Times ... ya think??

Seems to me the only way to actually clear up stuff like that is to get completely clear of scientology in all its forms?

Hell if what you posted actually happened then I’d be over there in a heart beat at your Ron's org and in my spare time ... bleaching all of your favorite black t-shirts back to white!
:D

Is Mayo still alive, anyone know? :confused: Be nice if he could post here!

[programmer_guy]

Is Mayo still alive, anyone know? :confused: Be nice if he could post here!


Mayo Settlement
http://www.clambake.org/archive/WIR/wir1-12.html#10


Steve Fishman reported this week that David Mayo has settled his case against Scientology.

"I was reading ARS Week In Review, and I saw nothing mentioned about David Mayo's settlement that occurred last Wednesday. I learned about it in California. Graham Berry mentioned it happened, but he did not know any of the details.

"[H]e signed one of those classic Scieno-gag orders. So apparently David Mayo will not be talking on a.r.s. anymore."

Message-ID: <01bb6718.3a407740$57c720cc@xenu.ix.netcom.com>


I think that this may answer your question. :)

Best regards

[beyond_horizons]

Thanks PG, :)

I'ted be nice to get some links to some of his posts if anybody had been following them!

[Voltaire's Child]

Veda,

Depends on the Freezoners. They aren't all one big amorphous lump.

There are all sorts of people in it, some of whom are willing to criticize Hubbard, and some who aren't.

[Voltaire's Child]

You've spent years on knocking mine and others beliefs. So I never responded much.

You have anything positive to say about anything? :goodposting:

Not just that-but much of BH's negativity was personalized and ad hom. In fact, most was.

On and on and on and on and on....Truly, I was surprised to see him here.

Perhaps he's reformed?
:soon:

[Zinjifar]

:goodposting:

Not just that-but much of BH's negativity was personalized and ad hom. In fact, most was.

On and on and on and on and on....Truly, I was surprised to see him here.

Perhaps he's reformed?
:soon:

Isn't this kind of crap supposed to be in 'The Bitching Post'?

Zinj

[george rasmussen]

yes, it is i. 1970 NYO to 2000 CLWR/FLB. it might have been into 2001 a few months. 12 years in the S.O. mostly in finance. i have nothing to hide. what do you wish to know???? underdog

[george rasmussen]

yes the check book rules and as sad as Co$ is .....they still out gross the FreeZone. does that make them better? hell no.

regarding "standard" ...as in tech....the HCOB and HCOPL violations abound. in the FZ. personally i do not care. sadly several FZ pros want to say they are standard in the face of these violations. i do care about that "my shit don't stink" attitude. pat krenik and a few others dare point the finger at other pros in the FZ and say "you are out tech" when they themselves are not in compliance with pounds and pounds of tech vols. the nerve.

i think that has to stop. there is not a very friendly field and pro relationship thing going on in the FZ in my opinion. too much pissing and moaning. and "you are not standard" in my opinion.

had HCOBs really worked there would be millions of "clears" and OTs. there would be no FreeZone. no one would have left the CoS.

regarding my training and all. who cares? do you really care alan? or are you more interested in my status? the CoS and Co$ go into selling status. "what is your level?" "what course are you on?" "how much did you give to ________?" i do not value all these Scn courses and levels the way others do.

we can "clear" the Scn incident. you could run it as a Dn narritive item. oh yeah. illegal on Clears and OTs after 1978. so when did the tech get corrupted? 1978? 1981? 1983? 1986 even? the number of words that could be blogged on that question.

please....all of you guys .....get past Scientology.

george

[Dulloldfart]

George, unless it is to a post immediately before, please use the "Quote" function to show what you are responding to.

Just view the post you want to respond to, then hit the "Quote" box right under it on the right.

That way it is easy to see what you are talking about.

Paul

[beyond_horizons]

Not just that-but much of BH's negativity was personalized and ad hom.
...............................
Perhaps he's reformed?

Na ... Nope you got it all wrong! :duh: I'm here to help! ;)

There’s that old saying … or at least it will be old by the time you read this because I think I just made it up :) ... "Someone’s bad guy is always somebody else’s good guy ... vis-à-vis!"

In this case I believe, the intensity of the perception all depends upon where you reside in a box; i.e. in the center or near an outer edge.

The key word here is "focused"! And I believe your beginning to see the magick of the universe beyond the horizons of the hubbo box you once resided in, filled with all those danger, forboding, and blackness qwiffs hubbo put there!

So I’ll take that little tail wag as a "thank you" for the service BH has been providing all these years. :D :D :D

You see to the scino mindset any one who degrades or criticizes the hubbo mindset, the tech, the policy, another scientologist mindset to the extent I did/do, should have been dead by now! This comprises a qwiff that my x oatee scino friends once probably and continue to hold on to and perhaps wish for. Kind of like all those OT 5 and above that went to the court house to cave in Mayo with those intention beams!

Thats got to be perplexing to someone inside the box! Got to make them think ... and it did pop a few of your hubbo implanted qwiff 's I'm sure ... because I saw you reform!
;)

[Voltaire's Child]

I have exactly the same views I had before I ever heard of you.

Your dogpiling did not change anything other than to give me certain impressions of certain contributors.

[tarbaby]

Got to make them think ... and it did pop a few of your hubbo implanted qwiff 's I'm sure ...

"Quiff's" he says? WTF is he he talking about, anyway? Shirley not http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=quiff

I feel woozy just trying to guess.

Dennis

[beyond_horizons]

"Quiff's" he says? WTF is he he talking about, anyway?

Dennis
It is a term born of Quantum Physics established during the first half of the twentieth century. Sometimes called QM its Unified theory in physics about light, light waves, photons and matter condensing from energy. :) It has implications beyond the physics of light.

Basically "Popping a qwiff" is an expression that describes the collapse of the infinite possibilities of a quantum wave function.

It happens whenever an observer makes an observation.

The act of observation collapses the quantum wave, or qwiff, into the finite, relative manifestation of the moment. :D

For example, think of the first time a child turns the crank on a Jack-in-the-Box. Perhaps and with trepidation he/she can only imagine what might be in there, but when the music stops, then pop goes the weasel and ... it's a clown!

Kind of reminiscent of the box that hubbo built. :no:

:)

[tarbaby]

Basically "Popping a qwiff" is an expression that describes the collapse of the infinite possibilities of a quantum wave function. It happens whenever an observer makes an observation. The act of observation collapses the quantum wave, or qwiff, into the finite, relative manifestation of the moment.

OMG! Is this esoteric, or what?? From http://www.angelfire.com/ca/sanmateoissues/lecture4.html

Well, first of all, we need to understand that there are such things as, what is called, a quantum WAVE FUNCTION, commonly known as a QUIFF, OR, more accurately, a Quiff Wave. Now, a Quiff Wave is actually a quantum wave of PROBABILITY... MEANING that within any quantum wave of probability IS...ALL POSSIBLE REALITIES!!! In other words, ANY possible reality, THAT COULD BE, is present in a quiff wave.
Now, one additional principle of quantum physics, needs to be injected here, at this point. And that is the principle of OBSERVATION. What this means is that something does NOT EXIST, UNTIL it is OBSERVED. In scientific terms, when the experiment is performed, AND the results of the experiment are observed (by whatever means, be it the meters, the equipment, or the person themselves, who is conducting the test) - WHEN the OBSERVATION takes place, THEN, and only THEN, does the RESULT come into EXISTENCE. In other words, quantum physics says that a particular, specific, individual REALITY...did NOT EXIST, until it was observed. PRIOR to being observed, and coming into existence, at THAT time, it ONLY was a reality in PROBABILITY!!! And ALL realities exist in PROBABILITY ONLY, until such time as ONE of those realities is OBSERVED (or SELECTED). THEN, by the act of observation, that ONE reality comes into actual EXISTENCE. And that is what is known as "popping" a quiff wave, or bringing a singular reality INTO EXISTENCE (which can also be called CREATION).

Ah, I geddit! So if a tree falls on you in the forest, and no one hears your screams, then it doesn't really hurt.

Dennis

[beyond_horizons]

OMG! Is this esoteric, or what?? From http://www.angelfire.com/ca/sanmateoissues/lecture4.html


Ah, I geddit! So if a tree falls on you in the forest, and no one hears your screams, then it doesn't really hurt.

Dennis
Ouch,

In this case, if I were to think ahead about a tree falling on me in a forest, there are an infinite number of possibilities in the Quantum Wave Set of "tree falls on me in the forest".

Starting with the height of the tree, the density of the tree, what kind of tree was it, was it falling up hill or down hill, etc ... etc... And then there is the type of clothing I happen to be wearing any range of protective gear, such as, head gear, steel toed shoes ... etc ... etc ... etc. And then there is, where the tree hit me such as on the steel toe or not ... etc ...etc ...etc.

The probability range outcome is from 'not hurt to hurt' and 'I may or may not scream'.

In the scenario you posed, you can't really know until all the conditions come together and it happens and you observe it. That’s when the qwiff pops! And you go, I screamed when the tree fell on me in the forest.

QM deals at a lower level of observation with the duality of light waves appearing coming into existance as particles in the micro chasm.

[beyond_horizons]

OMG! Is this esoteric, or what?? From http://www.angelfire.com/ca/sanmateoissues/lecture4.html


Dennis
Great site you linked to BTW. Not only does the subject lend itself to Physics, it also dovetails into Metaphysics!

:D :D

And thats why cults don't do well in this age of enlightenment! Espicially when you shine a light on some of the stuff in'em.

:D :D :D

Thanks

[Terril park]

DENNIS's Quote

OMG! Is this esoteric, or what?? From http://www.angelfire.com/ca/sanmateo.../lecture4.html
Quote:
Well, first of all, we need to understand that there are such things as, what is called, a quantum WAVE FUNCTION, commonly known as a QUIFF, OR, more accurately, a Quiff Wave. Now, a Quiff Wave is actually a quantum wave of PROBABILITY... MEANING that within any quantum wave of probability IS...ALL POSSIBLE REALITIES!!! In other words, ANY possible reality, THAT COULD BE, is present in a quiff wave.
Now, one additional principle of quantum physics, needs to be injected here, at this point. And that is the principle of OBSERVATION. What this means is that something does NOT EXIST, UNTIL it is OBSERVED.

BB
This of course is why I post success stories. Thus it then exists for many others. :)

DQ
In scientific terms, when the experiment is performed, AND the results of the experiment are observed (by whatever means, be it the meters, the equipment, or the person themselves, who is conducting the test) - WHEN the OBSERVATION takes place, THEN, and only THEN, does the RESULT come into EXISTENCE. In other words, quantum physics says that a particular, specific, individual REALITY...did NOT EXIST, until it was observed.

BB
I am thus contributing to the continuation of various universes. As per the factors and axioms.

Thus I, like all, are like Atlas, holding the world in place.

DQ

PRIOR to being observed, and coming into existence, at THAT time, it ONLY was a reality in PROBABILITY!!! And ALL realities exist in PROBABILITY ONLY, until such time as ONE of those realities is OBSERVED (or SELECTED).

BB
I'd say postulated covers that.

DQ

THEN, by the act of observation, that ONE reality comes into actual EXISTENCE. And that is what is known as "popping" a quiff wave, or bringing a singular reality INTO EXISTENCE (which can also be called CREATION).

BB
From The factors:-

7. And from the viewpoint to the dimension points there are connection and interchange. Thus new dimension points are made. Thus there is communication.

8. And thus there is light.

9. And thus there is energy.

10 And thus there is life.

In Full on URL below.

http://www.scientology.org/p_jpg/wis/wiseng/34/34-fact.htm

[beyond_horizons]

BB
From The factors:-

7. And from the viewpoint to the dimension points there are connection and interchange. Thus new dimension points are made. Thus there is communication.

8. And thus there is light.

9. And thus there is energy.

10 And thus there is life.

In Full on URL below.

[/url]

The Genesis story of a number of religions, also inspired by Pythagoras without the "Sacred Geometry" that has played a vital role in constructing and understanding the nature of the universe of matter and life forms.

So as a suggestion Terril, try keep you kid in school, not a Wally Hanks OT8 style ranch school. They're going to need their math and science to help create a new civilization. And find a religion that has a list of "virtues" in it to add to the mix.

And I don't recall God children populating the planets of the solar system. God scientists popped that hubbo qwiff in the 70's , before the 80's when Capt Bill, dumbed down by hubbo qwiffs built into the hubbo tech , had staff up on roof tops in the wee hours of the morn looking for a quantum possiblity of Martians to pop out of the sky!

I prefer to be dressed in any color other than black about all this! That's why Mrs. BH buys me the white t-shirts
:)

[tarbaby]

QM deals at a lower level of observation with the duality of light waves appearing coming into existance as particles in the micro chasm.

Wow! I think I finally grasp the meaning of "popping quiffs." Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it simply mean pointing something out for another or others to observe in order to make a potential reality can become a manifested reality?

Did I pop anything at all?

Dennis

(btw, its existEnce that happens whether observed or not)

[beyond_horizons]

doesn't it simply mean pointing something out for another or others to observe in order to make a potential reality can become a manifested reality?

Potentially and locally if the other or others see near exactly in the same way. But even that is impossible because everything is relative from a point of view. You get approximate or relative reality when wave patterns interfere /over lap.

A key raisin parabled and slipped into that there hubbardian cow pie. For the cost of a few bucks for a book or two ... save yourself some bucks on your path ... it will.

Not able to focus at the moment ... popped some corks on a wine bottle earlier for Mother's day. Things are waving around pretty good right now!:duh:

Do a search on "Quantum physics and the double slit experiment". I think there is a youtube animation that speaks to this somewhere. Kewl stuff, it is.

And you’ll get to see things , and do in the way they are for you, not the way they were for ronny boy.


Did I pop anything at all?

What was that Wow all about?
:D

Best to you!

:)

[Alanzo]

Isn't a Qwiff the name for the sound made when bursts of trapped air are farted from a vagina?

[Zinjifar]

Isn't a Qwiff the name for the sound made when bursts of trapped air are farted from a vagina?

That's a 'queef'

Although, as predicted by Quantum Mechanics, they don't exist unless somebody notices.

Zinj

[Whitedove]

I have learned to understand abit more about the Freezone and derived practices from Scientology.
Whichever path is the ideal path for someone to enhance his/her life is his/her own choice and I dont judge anyone regarding this. I have my own idea about what I am looking for. I do not believe in the church management or the upper levels of Scientology. That is my own personal belief.

There is good things about the tech itself but that is in my opinion a personal matter depending what each person gained individually from it.

So far, there is one person that I truly respect in the Freezone. Not that I am a freezoner. Just that this person has helped me (without knowing it) as regard to my experience in Scientology and acknowledging what I saw was wrong and knew was wrong within the church.

I dont agree with everything he says but he is the closest to have said what I know to be true in regard to my own experience, observation and point of view.

What I dont like about some critics is the negative path they take and how destructive it is. I understand the charge that people have as regard to their past experience with Scientology. I am the first one to acknowledge that when I first started writing on OCMB I still was full of anger and resentment. It helped me to get it out of my system (communication is the answer). So, by telling how I felt and exchanging with other critics I became to realise that yes its needed to get whatever you have in yourself from your system but to stay on that road is destructive. But that is me. Some people might be happy that way. I was not.

I'm still looking and learning. Hopefully I will find the answers I need to have the peace of mind I need to move on. But I guess I always will be someone who needs spiritual enhancement. Its who I am and if I dont have that its like my life has no meaning. Even before Scientology I believed there had to be more than just what I was seeing around me. I needed answers. I still do.

So, whether you are a freezoner or not, what matter is that the path you have chosen is the one YOU need.

Nobody throw stones at me now
:hug:

[Alan]

Nobody throw stones at me now

:hug:



Great write up!

:kiss: :kiss: :)

Alan

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

So far, there is one person that I truly respect in the Freezone. Not that I am a freezoner. Just that this person has helped me (without knowing it) as regard to my experience in Scientology and acknowledging what I saw was wrong and knew was wrong within the church.

:hug:

Would you mind telling me who that one person is?

[Whitedove]

Great write up!

:kiss: :kiss: :)

Alan

Thanks Alan :modest:

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

yes the check book rules and as sad as Co$ is .....they still out gross the FreeZone. does that make them better? hell no.

regarding "standard" ...as in tech....the HCOB and HCOPL violations abound. in the FZ. personally i do not care. sadly several FZ pros want to say they are standard in the face of these violations. i do care about that "my shit don't stink" attitude. pat krenik and a few others dare point the finger at other pros in the FZ and say "you are out tech" when they themselves are not in compliance with pounds and pounds of tech vols. the nerve.

i think that has to stop. there is not a very friendly field and pro relationship thing going on in the FZ in my opinion. too much pissing and moaning. and "you are not standard" in my opinion.

had HCOBs really worked there would be millions of "clears" and OTs. there would be no FreeZone. no one would have left the CoS.

regarding my training and all. who cares? do you really care alan? or are you more interested in my status? the CoS and Co$ go into selling status. "what is your level?" "what course are you on?" "how much did you give to ________?" i do not value all these Scn courses and levels the way others do.

we can "clear" the Scn incident. you could run it as a Dn narritive item. oh yeah. illegal on Clears and OTs after 1978. so when did the tech get corrupted? 1978? 1981? 1983? 1986 even? the number of words that could be blogged on that question.

please....all of you guys .....get past Scientology.

george


:clapping2: :goodposting: :clapping2:

[Zinjifar]

we can "clear" the Scn incident. you could run it as a Dn narritive item. oh yeah. illegal on Clears and OTs after 1978. so when did the tech get corrupted? 1978? 1981? 1983? 1986 even? the number of words that could be blogged on that question.

please....all of you guys .....get past Scientology.

george


:clapping2: :goodposting: :clapping2:

Agreed.

The first thing necessary to *that* is to abandon the use of the term 'Scientology'. Whatever else Scientology might be, it's also a collection of 'methods' which may be valuable for the individual, but, are also *inherently* suspect and inherently dangerous in the hands of someone 'outside' the individual being 'handled'.

They're also probably dangerous 'applied' autonomously, but, grown-ups are grown-ups and should be *allowed* to do dangerous things that *don't endanger others*.

The second necessary part is to abandon the 'Source' mystical mumbo-jumbo and the 'Keeping Scientology Working' megalomania that is the core driving force behind *all* Scientology abuse and the excuse for same.

Zinj

[Dulloldfart]

They're also probably dangerous 'applied' autonomously, but, grown-ups are grown-ups and should be *allowed* to do dangerous things that *don't endanger others*.


What about consenting adults, Zinj?

Where do you draw the line?

My answer to that question is that the only tenable basis for such a prohibition is the law of the land.

Paul

[Zinjifar]

What about consenting adults, Zinj?

Where do you draw the line?

My answer to that question is that the only tenable basis for such a prohibition is the law of the land.

Paul

I'm not sure what you're asking. I think 'adults' should be 'allowed' to do dangerous things without wearing helmets or being required to submit to 'Big Momma's' purvue.

Isn't that what I said?

They should be limited in what they do that endangers *others*, unless, naturally, those so endangered are *aware* of the endangerment.

Even Scientology should be 'allowed' if we assume 'informed consent'.

Not *everyone* needs to end up a 'Rondroid' :)

What Scientology and Scientologists object to is 'informed consent'.

'It's out-gradient!'
'Who would join if they *knew* where it was going?'

Zinj

[The Oracle]

Agreed.


They're also probably dangerous 'applied' autonomously, but, grown-ups are grown-ups and should be *allowed* to do dangerous things that *don't endanger others*.


Zinj


"Grown -ups" are just children with older bodies.

[Dulloldfart]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I think 'adults' should be 'allowed' to do dangerous things without wearing helmets or being required to submit to 'Big Momma's' purvue.

Isn't that what I said?

They should be limited in what they do that endangers *others*, unless, naturally, those so endangered are *aware* of the endangerment.

Even Scientology should be 'allowed' if we assume 'informed consent'.

Not *everyone* needs to end up a 'Rondroid' :)

What Scientology and Scientologists object to is 'informed consent'.

'It's out-gradient!'
'Who would join if they *knew* where it was going?'

Zinj

Who decides what in life is dangerous and requires informed consent? My point was that a country's existing laws provide a framework for such, and one should follow those laws. They will not be perfect, but how else can one do it? Discussing what "should" be when one can't change it is a waste of time.

What's the big deal about special informed consent re Scientology?

The information is readily available on the Internet. Google isn't exactly difficult to access, and critical information abounds in plain sight. There is no real excuse for a prospective Scientologist, wondering what it is all about, not to spend at least some time online checking around. If he is not up to at least doing that, quite frankly he deserves all he gets.

Paul

[tarbaby]

The information is readily available on the Internet. Google isn't exactly difficult to access, and critical information abounds in plain sight. There is no real excuse for a prospective Scientologist, wondering what it is all about, not to spend at least some time online checking around. If he is not up to at least doing that, quite frankly he deserves all he gets.

Brilliant idea, DOF! And it will no doubt prove to be very effective in strengthening the species too. We just prune the weak, gullible and stupid ones from the herd. After all, karmically, they probably deserve whatever they get. They're just pulling it in.

Now why hasn't anyone thought of that before??

Dennis

[Voltaire's Child]

I have just been informed today (for about the bajillionth time) that I cannot call myself a Scientologist whilst picking and choosing.

Point of fact,that's what all Freezoners and Indie Scn'ists do. (and other people who don't even call themselves Scn'ists, too, but right here I'm talking about those who still use the oh so dreaded "Scientologist" appellation). Even the most party line ones do to an extent. And so many non CofS Scn'ists aren't very party line at all.

Also, I want to say- if these people who say this hate Scn'ists or hate people BEING Scn'ists as much as they say- then, if some indie/dilettante/FZer or whatnot isn't really a Scn'ist- then what are they so worried about?

They don't think people should be Scn'ists. Those same people think that indies are too dilettantish to really BE Scn'ists, cuz they aren't doing the whole thing LRH would have wanted. Ok, well, if they shouldn't BE Scn'ists and they really AREN'T Scn'ists, then, problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

[Voltaire's Child]

BTW,there is a book about dangerous stuff for boys that's all the rage now. This guy wrote it who feels kids should get to act more like kids....

Anyway some of the posts here made me think of that.

[Alanzo]

I have just been informed today (for about the bajillionth time) that I cannot call myself a Scientologist whilst picking and choosing.

Could you be not so vague about this and say who told you this, and what, exactly, did they say?


Point of fact,that's what all Freezoners and Indie Scn'ists do. (and other people who don't even call themselves Scn'ists, too, but right here I'm talking about those who still use the oh so dreaded "Scientologist" appellation). Even the most party line ones do to an extent. And so many non CofS Scn'ists aren't very party line at all.Who, exactly?


Also, I want to say- if these people...Who, exactly?

....who say this hate Scn'ists or hate people BEING Scn'ists as much as they say- then, if some indie/dilettante/FZer or whatnot isn't really a Scn'ist- then what are they so worried about?


They don't think people should be Scn'ists. ...Woodsy Owl here..."Who"?


Those same people think that indies are too dilettantish to really BE Scn'ists, cuz they aren't doing the whole thing LRH would have wanted. Ok, well, if they shouldn't BE Scn'ists and they really AREN'T Scn'ists, then, problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)If you are more specific about who said this, and what they said, then your complaint can be better understood. And it may be possible to resolve the problem, even.

Otherwise, it's just a generalized rant that goes on and on with no end or hope of understanding in sight.

[Voltaire's Child]

It's not a generalized rant. Most people here- including you- have seen these comments levelled at me on OCMB and a.r.s. It's been happening for years. And YOU have seen AND commented on it. Virtually everyone here including you is well aware of those posts and has read them. Almost everyone here is from OCMB and/or a.r.s.

So yesterday "Os Wilkes" fed me the same line of bullshit on OCMB. But he's just one of many in a looonng line of people who've been doing that. So it was fresh in my mind when I read Whitedove's comment (it's on either the previous page or the one before that.It's recent. It's the one to which I'm responding.)

As far as most indie Scn'ists, I mean most that I've met. Over time.

Over years.

There. That's enough.

[Voltaire's Child]

yes the check book rules and as sad as Co$ is .....they still out gross the FreeZone. does that make them better? hell no.

regarding "standard" ...as in tech....the HCOB and HCOPL violations abound. in the FZ. personally i do not care. sadly several FZ pros want to say they are standard in the face of these violations. i do care about that "my shit don't stink" attitude. pat krenik and a few others dare point the finger at other pros in the FZ and say "you are out tech" when they themselves are not in compliance with pounds and pounds of tech vols. the nerve.

george

Pat Krenik is a good friend of mine. I have found her to be far more loving and a lot less judgmental than a number of Freezoners I've met.

Perhaps you should give specifics if you're going to say that stuff about someone like that.

[ron's hat]

"Jeremiah was a bullfrog!!

He was a good friend of mine....

I never understood a single word he said,

but I helped him drink his wine!!!"

(and he always had some mighty fine wine)

[RolandRB]

It's Hubbo-spew with added Marcabs.