Ronnie Miscavige

[Div6]

Looks like he is in the same line of work as his brother....real estate:

http://www.williamsburgvahomes.com/join.asp

I wonder if he has an RPF going down there as well?

[The Oracle]

Ronnie Miscavige is one of the sweetest, kindest, friendliest people I have ever known.

As far as I know there is not one single negative report about him anywhere on the net.

I have never known anyone who has had something bad to say about him.

He has distanced himself from the Church of Scientology.

It is not just to drag him within any negative focus here.

Just my two cents.

[Zinjifar]

He has distanced himself from the Church of Scientology.


He *has*??

When (and how) was that?

Zinj

[Bea Kiddo]

Is he not in the Sea Org anymore? He was a nice person. I wonder how he would have ever been let out? Seems beyond ... anything I could imagine. Weird. He was in Exec Strata last time I knew.

[Emma]

Apparently he is a selling real estate in Virginia.

[Bea Kiddo]

He probably was going to get RPFed and decided not to have anything to do with that and left, routing out. Hmmm. Anyone know the story? I am curious. And what happened with his daughter then?

[The Oracle]

He refused to divorce his wife, and left with her when she decided to go.

That was several years ago, and he and his wife are trying to make a life for themselves.

I don't think he should be pulled into attacks because he is DM's brother.

Geeeeze, just more fair game..... Guilty by association?

I wouldn't want somebody dragging up my name on the internet for all of my new friends a co workers to see just because of the time I spent in the Sea Org.

We are all guilty of being connected to Scientology at one time or another.

We talk here of people being abused and loosing rights and injustices as if we ourselves have transcended such behavior.

Is there anyone on this forum that can say Ronnie did some disservice towards them?

I doubt if anyone on this forum could say Ronnie Miscavige did some disservice against them.

So why is he a target?

He is not a representative of the Church or a spokeperson.

He is not attacking anybody here.

He is nobodies enemy here, or anywhere else that I know about.

If he is able to make a new life with his wife and has some success I am very happy for both of them.

They were both good friends to me when I was in the Sea Org.

I was in the Sea Org once, does that make me a bad person?

I don't think so. I had good intentions.

Is my photo and info from the web going to show up here on a thread?

I hope you all who know me have a little more consideration for my new life.

[The Oracle]

He was not going to get rpf'd.

He was tired of watching his wife abused with rpf, and she was tired of being suppressed by David Miscavige with rfp assignments.

[The Oracle]

To the best of my knowledge the only Miscavige in the Sea Org besides DM is his father.

DM's wife Michelle left Int and hasn't been seen or heard for months either, by the people at Int.

[Zinjifar]

He is not a representative of the Church or a spokeperson.


I don't have any particular ill-feeling towards Ronnie Miscavige, but, he is a former high ranking public official of the 'Church' of Scientology and, as such, he's a public figure.

He could pretty much take care of that by publicly disavowing Scientology and the 'Church', but, nothing will erase that history. It's *his* history, and *his* culpability.

And, naturally, to publicly disavow Scientology would be a 'High Crime', so, no doubt he'd prefer to weasle around that.

I don't think anybody's out to 'get' Ronnie, but, I also don't think he's done anything to take responsibility for his own crimes.

How hard is it to just say 'Geez... I fucked up. Scientology did evil things and I did too. I left when it began doing evil things to *me*; not because I cared about the evil it was doing before and to other people'?

Zinj

[Bea Kiddo]

I don't think anyone meant to pick on him. I think we were just innocent curiousity. I wish them well!

[Div6]

He refused to divorce his wife, and left with her when she decided to go.

That was several years ago, and he and his wife are trying to make a life for themselves.

I don't think he should be pulled into attacks because he is DM's brother.

Geeeeze, just more fair game..... Guilty by association?

I wouldn't want somebody dragging up my name on the internet for all of my new friends a co workers to see just because of the time I spent in the Sea Org.

We are all guilty of being connected to Scientology at one time or another.

We talk here of people being abused and loosing rights and injustices as if we ourselves have transcended such behavior.

Is there anyone on this forum that can say Ronnie did some disservice towards them?

I doubt if anyone on this forum could say Ronnie Miscavige did some disservice against them.

So why is he a target?

He is not a representative of the Church or a spokeperson.

He is not attacking anybody here.


I hope you all who know me have a little more consideration for my new life.

There was no malice intended in my posting this. Nor do I expect any untoward consequences. It is just curious how that ball bounced....and any factual data would help fill the vacuum of how he ended up where he ended up. I never met the man myself, but I certainly do not bear any ill will. Any info on how he managed to extricate himself and his family?

[Div6]

DM's wife Michelle left Int and hasn't been seen or heard for months either, by the people at Int.

When? How recently?

[The Oracle]

Biddy got sent to the rpf.

She was out a few weeks and was going to get sent back again.

It was no secret her and DM did not get along.

She flapped and her and Ronnie locked themselves in their room for a few days and would not come out or let anyone in.

It was a big flap.

When they did open the door they had their clothes in a suitcase, walked to their car, got in and drove away and that was that.

Some false PR was spread around that Biddy had had an out 2D while on a mission at Flag.

That was totally false.

She just didn't want to do the rpf for what?......the seventh time?

The first time she did it she did it with Ronnie, they got sent to the rpf for out 2D.

Let's face it though, they just got fed up with, or outgrew, the Sea Org and that madness.

[The Oracle]

From what I was told Michelle disappeared from Int about eight months ago.

Nobody was told anything about it. Not a word was written or mentioned anywhere.

Maybe she is decorating the new habitat for her and DM?

[Bea Kiddo]

Wow. How do you have so much info? Very interesting.

By the way - good for Bitty and Ronnie!!! (Did their kids get out too?)

[The Oracle]

Wow. How do you have so much info? Very interesting.

By the way - good for Bitty and Ronnie!!! (Did their kids get out too?)

Just people coming out of the Sea Org and posting on the net, or people forwarding emails or posts to me.

Geeeze, this is all old news!

I thought everybody knew!

I know somebody, sent me a whole bunch of posts put on some forum by "blownforgood" , there were some other people, maybe Chuck Beatty , yes, Chuck knows everything about current events and has been able to send me current reports about friends of mine.

That web site for Ronnie has been up for months.

People still stay in touch with or reconnect with friends.

There was a reconnection site up for a while where I got to track down a lot of people that came out.

Called "Scientology reconnection".

I still know people that are on lines that have family in the Sea Org or Xspouses.

I found out a lot about what was happening at that time when I was on the XSO list for a while about a year ago.

People do post on BB's list a lot, the freezone list.

I got run off that list (not by BB) for my beliefs in magick, and for "railing against justice".

I made myself vanish!

But anyway, there are lots of lists around with people giving updated reports.

And there are lots of people "on lines" who are quite dismayed and dissapointed with what was and what is that like to chat over martini's at brunch!

Besides that, I am in good standing with the Church.

I even paid off my "freeloader" debt.

I'm not a soldier in any war.

I try to stay on good terms with everybody.

I think the outpoints I notice and speak of are understaood to be from my viewpoint, and may even be helpful to the Church or people coming out.

In fact, I am on NOTS auditing right now in the Freezone.

I refuse to inherit enemies of other people.

As long as I am decent to the people in front of me I have a license to be anywhere doing what I want. Without apologies.

[OHTEEATE]

I was thinking about my Dad today, and my brother, as I was driving somewhere. I hit a grief charge and burst out crying. I miss my brother. I miss each of my 4 sisters. I miss my mother. I miss my children. Ronnie Miscavige has the right to conduct his ex-SO status in any way he sees fit. It may let him have a family relationship. It may save the right to send and recieve cards, emails, and phone calls from family at holidays , birthdays, etc. It may save his ability to speak to his father and brother, no matter what other differences they may have. Blood family is important to many people. I can't fault Ronnie for keeping his own counsel.

[The Oracle]

That's right Mike!

And family is very important to him.

As I understand it he is in the Virginia area to care for his elderly mother and his wife and children.

[Alanzo]

I wrote KRs on the pricing for auditing and training back in the 80's and early 1990's, for about 7 years straight.

There was a point, after I had determined that SOED's and other junior issues were violating HCOPLS on pricing, per the HCOPL "Seniority of Orders", I wrote High Crime Reports on every terminal in Exec Strata. (I'll tell the whole story later)

Anyway, Ronnie Miscavage, As Marketing Exec Int, sent me a letter informing me that the HCOPL which was used to set the prices was a Marketing Series PL that talked about pricing versus costing.

Just like the bullshit references I had received earlier for Guilliame Leserve and others, it made no sense at all. And Ronnie's letter to me had the flavor of, "You had better shut the fuck up now."

It was a few weeks later that I was ordered to SMI again for "handling", while my folders were gone through by an auditor sent in by Int and I could not seem to pass a "Leadership Survey" despite taking it 6 times. That's when I was taken off the post of ED and made a course supervisor in my mission.

Ronnie Miscavage, at that time, was very much a Rondroid Int "Power Terminal" who defended an indefensible party line and undoubtedly was in on punishing me for writing a KR. The term they used was "flappy KR". And I have no doubt that he violated Seniority of Orders with regard to pricing just like the rest of them.

We all have to come to terms with what we did as Scientologists, even Ronnie. Maybe especially Ronnie, because at least in my case, he obviously went along with and defended egregious violations of policy, impoverishing missions and orgs and their hardworking staff, and abusing his power.

So, I don't have any special place in my heart for the sweetness of Ronnie Miscavage.

[The Oracle]

Treading very VERY lightly here.

Mike, there is no reason in the world for you to suffer this way.

Please email my friend for solutions: hifrequency8@earthlink.net

You have not been given an unsolvable problem.

I care about you and your family, and I believe you can sort this out to a place where you are very comfortable with the results.

"There is something you can do about it"... as they say.

[Alanzo]

Wait a minute here.

Ronnie Miscavage should DO SOMETHING. He can do something. He should.

All this power worship is a hold over from Sea Org bullshit.

While we have Mike and his family in shreds, and countless others, Ronnie Miscavage is out quietly being a REAL ESTATE AGENT??

NO.

Ronnie Miscavage is a coward. He had more to do with what Scientology is today than anyone on this board. He needs to do something about what is going on.

[Romuva]

alanzo,it maybe more of a reason why he doesn't speak out.It's because
of the harm maybe he is realizing now he did and coming to terms with
that.Who knows what point he is in his life.Is he out? Is he in a stage
of trying to sort it out?Maybe he just wants to forget about it and bury
the whole thing ,some people do.

[The Oracle]

Wait a minute here.

Ronnie Miscavage should DO SOMETHING. He can do something. He should.

All this power worship is a hold over from Sea Org bullshit.

While we have Mike and his family in shreds, and countless others, Ronnie Miscavage is out quietly being a REAL ESTATE AGENT??

NO.

Ronnie Miscavage is a coward. He had more to do with what Scientology is today than anyone on this board. He needs to do something about what is going on.


Jesus Christ Alanzo,

I think most of the people out here are finished with enforcment type of issues.

You actually sound like a Sea Org recruiter.

What Ronnie SHOULD DO is whatever he wants to do with his life without some dictator breathing down his back.

As far as coming to terms with what we did, that is not an issue for me.

There is NOBODY in the entire Scientology arena that will say they suffered as a result of my presense in the Sea Org.

I read Dale Carnegie BEFORE I went into the Sea Org, and I treated all people with respect and kindness.

[Div6]

Please email my friend for solutions: hifrequency8@earthlink.net



Hey! I just finished up a cycle with that person a while back. I can only urge you to send an email, and set up a phone call.....eventually the sun will shine and the birds will sing. I find that the confront level in the Scn diaspora is MUCH higher, as we have transcended the "confront of evil" necessary to see through the current CoS regime...there are still greater ones to confront....

But they all can be confronted and handled,

Good luck.

[Alanzo]

Jesus Christ Alanzo,

I think most of the people out here are finished with enforcment type of issues.

You actually sound like a Sea Org recruiter.

What Ronnie SHOULD DO is whatever he wants to do with his life without some dictator breathing down his back.

Well, I felt a big packet of anger come up from thinking about Ronnie Miscavage and his part in what I experienced. And I expressed it.

But I have to ask you: who's gonna fix this but those who created it? Anyone in Int Strata has created more of all this bullshit than anyone here.

So OSA can keep threatening families, and all of it can keep going on because those who created and enforced it don't feel like doing anything about what they did?

Sorry. I disagree. Ronnie Miscavage was not a sweetheart, nor did he wield his power in a fair or uncorrupted way.

He can stop or alleviate the suppression that he created while in Scientology. He could have a huge effect on improving things for lots of Scientologists.

But he's not.

When he and those who he controlled pulled that shit on me, I didn't fight back. The pressure exerted on me convinced me that there was something wrong with me. And I gave up.

Now I know differently.

And Ronnie Miscavage should, too.

As far as coming to terms with what we did, that is not an issue for me.

There is NOBODY in the entire Scientology arena that will say they suffered as a result of my presense in the Sea Org.

I read Dale Carnegie BEFORE I went into the Sea Org, and I treated all people with respect and kindness.The Sea Org is a suppressive organization. Its whole purpose is to use social coercion tactics to get Scientologists to work against their own self-interests and to work only for the interests of Scientology.

But if you treated all people with respect and kindness while being a Sea Org member then good for you.

Do you mind if I ask: Did you ever "get anyone's ethics in" who was "nattering" about a senior SO terminal?

[The Oracle]

No.

I never used Scientology "justice".

In fact, I financed people that wanted to leave.

[The Oracle]

Who's gonna fix this?

Why........us. The people that always fix it lifetime after lifetime.

There are the same people that make it go wrong and the same people that make it go right, lifetime after lifetime.

You think people leave and it is all alright?

I've bumped into more people outside of the Church that were out ethics and in treason than inside the church.

I payed a class nine to do an FES that culled information from a PC folder and gave it to someone to blackmail me.

I paid someone to come here and use "standard tech" that almost killed my husband with his "standard tech".

It's not "the church" it is people that are suppressive and in low conditions wherever they go.

Who is going to fix it?

Start with you and get out of holding others accountable.

It's you and me baby that will fix it all.

Just start with that.

What can YOU do to fix it?

We all know we are in some black magic here or we wouldn't have gotten into Scientology to begin with.

So the "guides" were a bit or a lot off.

Are we going to bitch and throw stones or move onto the next course?

So you thought you were going to get an easy ride out after millions of years of this fuckin shit?

Maybe you the the coward?

This is no easy fuckin walk baby.

This is some major fucn black magic shit.

You thought someone would take you out on a stretcher.

No.

You'de best rise up and meet the challenges, way too easy considering how long it took you to get into this shit, and use whatever flashlight you can until the batteries run out.

Bitch and bitch and bitch about the service!

Yoo hoo!

Earth ain't the Hilton!

[Alanzo]

alanzo,it maybe more of a reason why he doesn't speak out.It's because of the harm maybe he is realizing now he did and coming to terms with that. Who knows what point he is in his life. Is he out? Is he in a stage of trying to sort it out? Maybe he just wants to forget about it and bury the whole thing, some people do.

I'd love to some day receive an apology from the fuck.

He owes me that.

And I'll bet I'm not the only one.

I'm really pissed off about this. It's a balled-up series of incidents that I have never really sorted through. It was very degrading. And very humiliating.

All on purpose. To shut me up and to try to break me.

Well I exist.

And he owes me an apology.

[The Oracle]

I'd love to some day receive an apology from the fuck.

He owes me that.

And I'll bet I'm not the only one.

I'm really pissed off about this. It's a balled-up series of incidents that I have never really sorted through. It was very degrading. And very humiliating.

All on purpose. To shut me up and to try to break me.

Well I exist.

And he owes me an apology.

Nobody owes you anything except to leave you alone.

Pull yourself together.

[Alanzo]

Who's gonna fix this?

Why........us. The people that always fix it lifetime after lifetime.

There are the same people that make it go wrong and the same people that make it go right, lifetime after lifetime.

You think people leave and it is all alright?

I've bumped into more people outside of the Church that were out ethics and in treason than inside the church.

I payed a class nine to do an FES that culled information from a PC folder and gave it to someone to blackmail me.

I paid someone to come here and use "standard tech" that almost killed my husband with his "standard tech".

It's not "the church" it is people that are suppressive and in low conditions wherever they go.

Who is going to fix it?

Start with you and get out of holding others accountable.

It's you and me baby that will fix it all.

Just start with that.

What can YOU do to fix it?

We all know we are in some black magic here or we wouldn't have gotten into Scientology to begin with.

So the "guides" were a bit or a lot off.

Are we going to bitch and throw stones or move onto the next course?

So you thought you were going to get an easy ride out after millions of years of this fuckin shit?

Maybe you the the coward?

This is no easy fuckin walk baby.

This is some major fucn black magic shit.

You thought someone would take you out on a stretcher.

No.

You'de best rise up and meet the challenges, way too easy considering how long it took you to get into this shit, and use whatever flashlight you can until the batteries run out.

Bitch and bitch and bitch about the service!

Yoo hoo!

Earth ain't the Hilton!

I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I'm not a Scientologist.

I am an EX-Scientologist: That means that I am not caught in a "huge and complex labyrinth" anymore.

Justice is the reckoning of wrongs. There is no need to fly off into magic and Scientology.

Just reckon the wrongs.

[Alanzo]

Nobody owes you anything except to leave you alone.

Pull yourself together.

What are you doing?

Are you "getting my ethics in"?

Are you giving me a "reality adjustment"?

[The Oracle]

This has nothing to do with ethics.

It has to do with love.

You think hate is a rough road to walk?

Try loving the people on front of you, then you will know what is the sticky stuff of this universe.

I tell you what it is because I love you.

My friend, I want you to stand back up and get some hope again.

It is not because I think you are out ethics.

It is beacause I want to encourage you to keep on going.

It is because I think you can.

[Terril park]

Well said TI!

Alanzo you are clearly at effect in this area. You need some sort of
resolution and to become cause. After all its your universe.

I believe Alan would describe himself as an ex scientologist. No doubt
he could help. Or you could go Visit Ronnie. Or forgive him. But do
something.

[Alanzo]

All right, TI and Teril. Thanks for the sentiments.

When you have been a cult member, you have experiences where you have allowed yourself to be subjugated and submerged beneath an onslaught of demands from others who worked against who you were and what you believed was right.

I allowed myself to be buried by others like Ronnie Miscavage. I'd actually forgotten about him until I saw this thread.

The point was being made by TI that:

Geeeeze, just more fair game..... Guilty by association?

I wouldn't want somebody dragging up my name on the internet for all of my new friends a co workers to see just because of the time I spent in the Sea Org.

We are all guilty of being connected to Scientology at one time or another.

We talk here of people being abused and loosing rights and injustices as if we ourselves have transcended such behavior.

Is there anyone on this forum that can say Ronnie did some disservice towards them?

I doubt if anyone on this forum could say Ronnie Miscavige did some disservice against them.

So why is he a target?

He is not a representative of the Church or a spokeperson.

He is not attacking anybody here.

He is nobodies enemy here, or anywhere else that I know about.I stepped in and said my piece about Ronnie Miscavage.

There is no such thing as "case", as described by L Ron Hubbard. But there are un-reckoned injustices. Ronnie Miscavage, by reason of his position in a suppressive group, is a cause of many.

He is letting them continue. And he is letting other injustices continue to be created on many more Scientologists - even people on this board - when he could do something about it.

I am here to tell you in this thread that I do not think that is a good thing.

I don't need auditing because I'm saying that. Nor do I need auditing because I am disagreeing that Ronnie Miscavage is pure as the driven snow, or even because I have unpleasant emotions from past unpleasant experiences.

I was effect in this area - when Ronnie Miscavage and others were working their hardest to make me so.

I am not any longer.

[Lulu Belle]

I have also heard Ronnie was a nice guy.

But Alanzo has a point.

Ronnie was at one time part of DM's inner circle. He did get special treatment for being DM's brother. The fact that he left the SO before, could come right back in and be put on a senior post at Int. Definitely nepotism there.

And Bitty was quite well known for being DM's henchman for years. I was suprised to hear the Illusionist say that her and DM didn't get along. She was the "Special Project Ops" for many of his "evolutions" which involved the nuking of many staff.

Though I understand they have the right to just walk away and start a new life, I can also understand certain feelings this might evoke in people who were the adverse effect of actions that occurred on their watch.

[Alanzo]

I have alos heard Ronnie was a nice guy.

But Alanzo has a point.

Ronnie was at one time part of DM's inner circle. He did get special treatment for being DM's brother. The fact that he left the SO before, could come right back in and be put on a senior post at Int. Definitely nepotism there.

And Bitty was quite well known for being DM's henchman for years. I was suprised to hear the Illusionist say that her and DM didn't get along. She was the "Special Project Ops" for many of his "evolutions" which involved the nuking of many staff.

Though I understand they have the right to just walk away and start a new life, I can also understand certain feelings this might evoke in people who were the adverse effect of actions that occurred on their watch.

And that continue to occur to others now.

[MarkWI]

Maybe someone who know him should invite him to join this message board.

It takes time to realize the bad deeds of cos, to overcome the idea that the church is the only way out, that only single individuals ever did anything wrong, and deal with the loss of a Clear Planet dream.

Reading the internet is the best way to realize and confront truth.

ARC, along with respect and freedom to talk freely is what I like most on this message board.

He may enjoy it too.

[Romuva]

I'd love to some day receive an apology from the fuck.

He owes me that.

And I'll bet I'm not the only one.

I'm really pissed off about this. It's a balled-up series of incidents that I have never really sorted through. It was very degrading. And very humiliating.

All on purpose. To shut me up and to try to break me.

Well I exist.

And he owes me an apology.


Alanzo,I wasn't in Scientology long enough but even on a small level I would
have to say I was pretty pissed off for some time how I had been screwed
with for some time.The way I was pressured to hand over money I didn't
have.I was told repeatedly I was "out ethics" among other things.
So ,I can only but imagine somebody who had that experience compunded
by 1000 times being in Scientology for years.I would be fucking bullshit
personally.

The problem with somebody like Ronnie Miscavage is most likely if he
tried to speak out,it might be a similar situation of what happened to
Ron Dewolfe.The church and DM would definitely work to stop him.

but I agree with your points,I think if he is away from COS he should extend
an apology.My question is where is he at now? Is he smug about where
he's at and what he's done or is he having a meltdown every night crying
himself to sleep over the guilt from what he did.
We had a similar discussion about this one time here and actions and choices
people had made and whether people had the choices all along or were
they so caught up in the cult itself there wasn't any ability for people to
really think about what they were doing.

but I definitely had that anger or was upset about it for a while and
like I said that was only on a much smaller level.So I understand that
somewhat.

and no I don't think you need auditing,maybe others think you do!!!!! :-)

[lionheart]

I'd love to some day receive an apology from the fuck.

He owes me that.

And I'll bet I'm not the only one.

I'm really pissed off about this. It's a balled-up series of incidents that I have never really sorted through. It was very degrading. And very humiliating.

All on purpose. To shut me up and to try to break me.

Well I exist.

And he owes me an apology.

Hi Alanzo

Oh boy do I understand!

My story: My stats in Power. 100% completions and re-sign-ups. One of my best friends instituted an ethics investigation of me! A senior SO exec, who should have known better got everyone to write KRs (mostly opinions) on me and did an ethics handling on me! 3rd May PL - "what out-ethics situation are you involved in?" acted as an out-list. Like you did, I succomed to this insanity and I caved in, feeling degraded.

I was violently furious afterwards, hated my previous best friend. Thought I was going mad! My solution to the intense fury was to decide to NEVER forgive my best friend! This made me feel better and gave me some ease from my hell of fury.

Years later I was declared and thrown out but was still more furious about that 3rd May PL than I was about my declare! The two main protagonists who had got me done were both dead and I was left with the fury and the unwillingness to forgive and no physical person there to forgive or hate! And nobody to apologise to me.

I did eventually find peace.

I think one of the worst things about Scn is the dreadful so-called justice system, especially as it is linked to a church that you believe at the time is the only spiritual hope for you.

All of us ex-scns or ex-churchies bear guilt for this abuse. Of course one can't compel someone else to apologise and that desire can trap us in a mass of charge. Nevertheless I certainly agree that any ex-senior management person who for whatever reason is not forthcoming about their abuse of power is contributing to the RTC abuse that still continues. They are in a peculiar position to speed up the demise of the RTC and can help bring about a curtailing of the future degredation that the RTC will impose.

If they don't speak up after leaving, then I'm afraid they are still creating the abuse.

May you find peace, my friend.

[Lulu Belle]

Is there anyone on this forum that can say Ronnie did some disservice towards them?

I doubt if anyone on this forum could say Ronnie Miscavige did some disservice against them.

So why is he a target?

He is not a representative of the Church or a spokeperson.

He is not attacking anybody here.

He is nobodies enemy here, or anywhere else that I know about.

If he is able to make a new life with his wife and has some success I am very happy for both of them.

They were both good friends to me when I was in the Sea Org.


Ill,

(we need to come up with a nickname for you. Your name is too long! :) )

This is what I perceive as one of those complicated issues.

I very much understand where you are coming from.

However, you need to understand that you are coming from this place in a great part because of who and where you were.

Ronnie was a friend of yours.

That means you were on his level or a level close to him while in the SO.

But not everyone was "on his level". And those who were "below him" would probably have a much different perception of him.

Scientology in general and the SO in particular has a caste system. There are cults within cults. People in the SO kowtow to those above them and step on those below them.

Maybe you didn't, but if you didn't, you were a rare soul. And you might be shocked to find out that someone on the receiving end of one of your orders that you didn't have any intention of hurting, when your order was "enforced" by CMO, someone below you may have gotten sent to the RPF or fried in some other way. And that person now perceives you as being evil.

You saw Ronnie's personal side. But those of us that were not at Int with him and were not friends of his, who were the effects of his policies and orders as MEI, wouldn't necessarily feel as warmnfuzzy as you do about him.

And Bitty? She may have eventually become DM's victim, but she was right up there with him cutting off heads on things like the FSO evolution in the late 80s and the "ethics mission" of PAC in 1996 that busted so many staff and basically destroyed all of PAC's auditors and tech people.

People who knew Marc Yager personally at Int say he was a great guy. Unfortunately my experience with him was primarily when he was doing one of those Int Management or RTC inspections of the service orgs. My perception of him was that he was a total dick.

I once got very angry with Fluffy on ARS because she said that all Sea Org members were arrogant assholes. But now I can see her point. She was in a mission. Chances are, all the Sea Org members she saw who came to her mission were arrogant assholes. Or acted like it while they were there, regardless of how nice they were "in their own group".

Where you are on the food chain in Scientology and the Sea Org has a lot to do with your perception of those above you and those below you.

[Romuva]

The thing of it is,is that Scientology isn't the only world ,society or group
this happened in.

You have countries where there were caste systems like this and people intensely hate each other and will go to war and kill each other over past
humiliations and injustices they suffered.So I would say this situation
with COS is pretty tame.

It's interesting with what I noticed alot about Scientology from reading
the discussion groups that no matter how hard Church of Scientology
and Scientology try to instill in students or inherents that they are
somehow above the human race.It's interesting to read how many
of the situations and accounts in COS were all too human experiences.

[lionheart]

Ill,

(we need to come up with a nickname for you. Your name is too long! :) )

This is what I perceive as one of those complicated issues.

I very much understand where you are coming from.

However, you need to understand that you are coming from this place in a great part because of who and where you were.

Ronnie was a friend of yours. That means you were on his level or a level close to him while in the SO.

But not everyone was "on his level". And those who were "below him" would probably have a much different perception of him.

Scientology in general and the SO in particular has a caste system. There are cults within cults. People in the SO kowtow to those above them and step on those below them.

Maybe you didn't, but you were a rare soul. And you might be shocked to find out that someone on the receiving end of one of your orders that you didn't have any interntion of hurting, when your order was "enforced" by CMO, someone below you may have gotten sent to the RPF or fried in some other way. And now perceive you as being evil.

You saw Ronnie's personal side. But those of us that were not at Int with him and were not friends of his, who were the effects of his policies and orders as MEI, wouldn't necessarily feel as warmnfuzzy as you do about him.

And Bitty? She may have eventually become DM's victim, but she was right up there with him cutting off heads on things like the FSO evolution in the late 80s and the "ethics mission" of PAC in 1996 that busted so many staff and basically destroyed all of PAC's auditors and tech people.

People who knew Marc Yager personally at Int say he was a great guy. Unfortunately my experience with him was primarily when he was doing one of those Int Management or RTC inspections of the service orgs. My perception of him was that he was a total dick.

I once got very angry with Fluffy on ARS because she said that all Sea Org members were arrogant assholes. But now I can see her point. She was in a mission. Chances are, all the Sea Org members she saw who came to her mission were arrogant assholes.

Where you are on the food chain in Scientology and the Sea Org has a lot to do with your perception of those above you and those below you.

Brilliant analysis Lulu! :thumbsup:

[Terril park]

All right, TI and Teril. Thanks for the sentiments.

When you have been a cult member, you have experiences where you have allowed yourself to be subjugated and submerged beneath an onslaught of demands from others who worked against who you were and what you believed was right.

I allowed myself to be buried by others like Ronnie Miscavage. I'd actually forgotten about him until I saw this thread.

The point was being made by TI that:

I stepped in and said my piece about Ronnie Miscavage.

There is no such thing as "case", as described by L Ron Hubbard. But there are un-reckoned injustices. Ronnie Miscavage, by reason of his position in a suppressive group, is a cause of many.

He is letting them continue. And he is letting other injustices continue to be created on many more Scientologists - even people on this board - when he could do something about it.

I am here to tell you in this thread that I do not think that is a good thing.

I don't need auditing because I'm saying that. Nor do I need auditing because I am disagreeing that Ronnie Miscavage is pure as the driven snow, or even because I have unpleasant emotions from past unpleasant experiences.

I was effect in this area - when Ronnie Miscavage and others were working their hardest to make me so.

I am not any longer.

It seems that you need some resolution no matter the means.

IMHO part of that resolution would be ethics on the first dynamic. You can do that on your own, better with another viewpoint. No one but you allowed yourself to be "subjugated and submerged". We have most here all been there to varying degrees. More cause and responsibility would be a good direction , till you can laugh or at least smile about it all.

[The Oracle]

Lulu Belle,

I was not part of any caste system in the Sea Org, first of all.

If other's bought in to that, and they did, that was not me.

I didn't say anything about Biddy except that she was kind to me.

This is the first time I ever heard anyone say anything negative about Ronnie.

So, I was wrong when I thought someone wouldn't be able to.

I didn't walk all over people or abuse them in any way.

I didn't issue orders that hurt people.

I wasn't anyone important in the Sea Org and did not have juniors.

I had friends in the Sea Org, the whole time I was there I did have one oppressive senior for a bit and I managed to get transferred out from under her .

There is a lot , people in the Sea Org went through, that I didn't.

I just feel that after leave there is no sense in fair gaming them on public forums.

I could say a lot of negative things about people that I don't bother about.

When I wasn't comfortable there anymore I just left.

I didn't go to the rpf and I didn't have any justice cycles.

When I was given an order I didn't want to follow, I just left.

I can say I had a lot of friends and only one enemy from my six years in the Sea Org.

I don't hate all Sea Org members.

I don't hate any Sea Org members.

I ridge a little on people that never stepped up to the plate to take any responsibility for the Sea Org as a group, that bash them.

I left when I felt I didn't want to be responsible anymore for what was happening to people there. I didn't want to contribute to that.

I feel the time I spent there I learned a lot.

I feel the time I spent there I helped to make the group a better one.

I refused to stand by and see people hurt, that is why I left.

It didn't hurt me at all that I left, and I didn't have to surrender any of my goals or wants or needs.

I have continued with my studies and interests in Scientology in the Freezone, with more qualified tech terminals than I had access to in the Church as a paying public.

I have no interest in attacking people that I knew way back then.

Because I don't see the profit in that, for me personally.

People can profit from their mistakes and from the mistakes of others.

But "justice" in any arena, or judging people, or condemning people, is not my bag.

This whole activity of the Church making people guilty, and then the people making the church guilty, and all of this noise about who is the guiltiest, I don't see how either side profits from this.

Just look at the BBC video of the Church staff member trying to make the reporter guilty while the reporter is on a mission to make the church guilty, and the who is the guilty one in the two opposing videos, and you see both sides lost .

We are ALL guilty of crimes.

We have a long history of tearing one another down.

This is an age not just in Scientology but through out the world where people are making an effort to lift one another up.

And that is the only way we will profit by a better world.

[Lulu Belle]

Lulu Belle,

I was not part of any caste system in the Sea Org, first of all.

If other's bought in to that, and they did, that was not me.

I didn't say anything about Biddy except that she was kind to me.

This is the first time I ever heard anyone say anything negative about Ronnie.

So, I was wrong when I thought someone wouldn't be able to.

I didn't walk all over people or abuse them in any way.

I didn't issue orders that hurt people.

I wasn't anyone important in the Sea Org and did not have juniors.

I had friends in the Sea Org, the whole time I was there I did have one oppressive senior for a bit and I managed to get transferred out from under her .

There is a lot, people in the Sea Org went through, that I didn't.

I just feel that after leave there is no sense in fair gaming them on public forums.

I could say a lot of negative things about people that I don't bother about.

When I wasn't comfortable there anymore I just left.

I didn't go to the rpf and I didn't have any justice cycles.

When I was given an order I didn't want to follow, I just left.


For you to be in the Sea Org for six years, especially uplines, and to have suffered almost no abuse, have never abused anyone else, and able to "just leave" when asked to do something you didn't want to do....

It doesn't sound like you existed in the same place the rest of us did.

You were either really, really lucky or really, really under the radar.

Or both.

Or the first Scientology saint.

[The Oracle]

I never said I was uplines for six years.

Ronnie and Biddy were not uplines the entire time they were in the Sea Org.

I understand "uplines" was a nightmare of abuse from people who have left and written about it.

I was lucky though, still am.

Nobody was paying much attention to what I was doing, there wasn't anything to pay much attention to.

I either did my job or didn't, it was too simple, and I did it.

Some things you don't have to wonder about, either the car got washed or it didn't, and I was on a post that went that way. There was nothing vague about what I was supposed to be doing. Thursday at 2:00 the evidence was there that I had done my job.

I know this may sound even more vague, but only about 1% of my time in the Sea Org was even spent with Sea Org members.

I didn't really know what was going on in the Orgs as far as staff matters went.

To tell you the truth, not a lot in my life changed when I joined the Sea Org.

Back then people still had family time and were not even required to live at staff berthing, which I did not.

Back then there were people in the Sea Org married to people that were not in the Sea Org and it wasn't an issue.

I had a post that required my attention to be away from the Org.

I guess it took me six years to figure out what was going on there.

I may have been regarded as a Saint, the staff would come to me with problems if they were leaving or getting kicked out because they knew I wouldn't turn on them. I helped a lot of people leave, financially.

When I cashed out my life to join the Sea Org I bought real estate in Florida and had a property management company handle it, so I had an income of rental properties.

The staff knew if they needed help I would help them.

I know there is at least one person on this forum that has read my scapbook of my 110 commendations.

Most from staff that I personally helped.

There was no way the Church could have slandered me when I left.

[Terril park]

For you to be in the Sea Org for six years, especially uplines, and to have suffered almost no abuse, have never abused anyone else, and able to "just leave" when asked to do something you didn't want to do....

It doesn't sound like you existed in the same place the rest of us did.

You were either really, really lucky or really, really under the radar.

Or both.

Or the first Scientology saint.

Well I know some of the history. The latter is probably the closest.:)

Note the previous comments re a " colourfull past". Visits to murderers in jail
and similar behaviour is sort of commonplace for Saints I believe. :)

[Zinjifar]

The thing of it is,is that Scientology isn't the only world ,society or group
this happened in.


Scientology: Where the Spanish Inquisition meets 'Lord of the Flies'. With grownups.

'It's no worse than stalinism!'

Zinj

[Voltaire's Child]

Well, I'd actually said far too many of them were assholes but yes, I did generalize and I did slam SO members as a group.

I'd known a number at Orgs, too, not just the mission.

But in all fairness- I knew some nice SO members. It just seemed that they were in the minority.

But as I've observed since and Lulu knows I understand this better now- for years I could not begin to know or understand what it's like to be in the SO. I would have been better served by a greater degree of understanding back when I was in CofS and when I first left it.

[Romuva]

Scientology: Where the Spanish Inquisition meets 'Lord of the Flies'. With grownups.

'It's no worse than stalinism!'

Zinj


apparently,it isn't .Scientology and Freezone seems to be all the
rave in Russia and parts of eastern europe.

but I would tend to agree with you,at least from what I saw.
Good analogy Zinjifar.

[Lulu Belle]

I never said I was uplines for six years.

Ronnie and Biddy were not uplines the entire time they were in the Sea Org.

I understand "uplines" was a nightmare of abuse from people who have left and written about it.

I was lucky though, still am.

Nobody was paying much attention to what I was doing, there wasn't anything to pay much attention to.

I either did my job or didn't, it was too simple, and I did it.

Some things you don't have to wonder about, either the car got washed or it didn't, and I was on a post that went that way. There was nothing vague about what I was supposed to be doing. Thursday at 2:00 the evidence was there that I had done my job.

I know this may sound even more vague, but only about 1% of my time in the Sea Org was even spent with Sea Org members.

I didn't really know what was going on in the Orgs as far as staff matters went.

To tell you the truth, not a lot in my life changed when I joined the Sea Org.

Back then people still had family time and were not even required to live at staff berthing, which I did not.

Back then there were people in the Sea Org married to people that were not in the Sea Org and it wasn't an issue.

I had a post that required my attention to be away from the Org.

I guess it took me six years to figure out what was going on there.


Well, that makes a lot of things make more sense.

You were in in earlier times on an SO base that was not Int. It sounds like you knew Ronnie and Bitty before they routed out the first time. When they came back in they went straight to Int and they were there the whole time they were in.

Bitty was probably much more friendly and relaxed then. When she was at Int the second time around her major function, from what I've been told, was to implement DM's pet projects. She oversaw the renovations of the ship. Lawrence Woodcraft's video regarding asbestos on the Freewinds talks about her role there. As I mentioned in a previous post, she was also responsible for the FSO evolution in the 80s where RTC took over the FLB. She oversaw the "ethics evolution" in PAC in 1996. I'm sure she did similar things on other SO bases.

She was known for being fierce and ruthless. And her screaming was legendary. I was told that one time she screamed so loud she shattered a chandelier.

None of what I'm saying here doesn't exist on other places on the net, by the way.

She may have been very nice to you in the early days. But this doesn't change what she did later on. She was responsible for those things. She was directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of staff being sent to the RPF and spending years there. For tech people being removed from posts after having been auditors and C/Ses for years.

You have your right to your opinion about her, based on your experience with her. Others, unfortunately, don't have such positive memories of Bitty.

As for your post, I understand what you mean. There were posts like that in the SO. Central files people and letter regges to name two. Their stat is totally controllable by them. No one really notices them or sees them. They don't have much interaction with staff. They are almost never in ethics trouble, because nothing else is really impacted much by what they do.

They are good posts to have if you want to stay "under the radar".

Unfortunately these days people on these kinds of posts continually get ripped off post. Most of the time they are sent to CLO to do call in for the Int events. So, they're not such great posts to have any more.

[The Oracle]

Lule Belle,

My only explanation is the Biddy must have gone very pts.

I saw the staff going pts.

I am very glad she is out.

I hope she will be able to recover fully from what happened to her there.

I am 100% certain that she must have gone very pts and out of valence.

Biddy, if you are out there, if you are reading this, I want you to know that we all know and understand.

Thank you for pulling yourself out of that madness and for withdrawing your allegience to it.

All the best.

[Lulu Belle]

Lule Belle,

My only explanation is the Biddy must have gone very pts.

I saw the staff going pts.

I am very glad she is out.

I hope she will be able to recover fully from what happened to her there.

I am 100% certain that she must have gone very pts and out of valence.

I'm sure she did.

"The Winning Valence" is what a lot of people did to survive. The closer to the top you were, the more you needed to do it.

[Lulu Belle]

To the best of my knowledge the only Miscavige in the Sea Org besides DM is his father.

DM's wife Michelle left Int and hasn't been seen or heard for months either, by the people at Int.

Ill,

(I think I'm giving you a new nick. Which one do you want? Sparkle? Flitter? Wanda? Illusionist is too long and formal, and Ill sounds...ill....)

I would love to hear anything you know about this. I have often wondered about the Secret Life of Shelley Miscavige.

[Lulu Belle]

But as I've observed since and Lulu knows I understand this better now- for years I could not begin to know or understand what it's like to be in the SO. I would have been better served by a greater degree of understanding back when I was in CofS and when I first left it.


I used to think all the SO staff that were posted uplines were arrogant assholes. What occurred with SO at your org, Fluff, happened at my org level with Int staff.

It was only after I got out and started reading on the internet some of what they went through that I got a "greater degree of understanding".

So, same here.

[The Oracle]

Lulu,

Most people abbreviate my name T.I.

If I hear anything else about Shelly I will post it.

I was in the room with her few times, can't say I knew her.

She appeared to be trying to be "invisible", and also trying to be a copy of whoever she was standing behind.

[Lulu Belle]

By the way, T.I,. it's totally OK to me that you defend your friends.

I do, too.

[The Oracle]

Cheers!

[Lulu Belle]

Lule Belle,

My only explanation is the Biddy must have gone very pts.

I saw the staff going pts.

I am very glad she is out.

I hope she will be able to recover fully from what happened to her there.

I am 100% certain that she must have gone very pts and out of valence.

Biddy, if you are out there, if you are reading this, I want you to know that we all know and understand.

Thank you for pulling yourself out of that madness and for withdrawing your allegience to it.

All the best.


Does anyone actually know if Bitty is out? Is she actually declared?

I've read things that have alluded to the idea that her and Ronnie are actually buying real estate for DM.

[Dulloldfart]

I've read things that have alluded to the idea that her and Ronnie are actually buying real estate for DM.

So have I. But I have read nothing to date to make me think it was anything other than unfounded opinion.

Paul

[Voltaire's Child]

Thx, Lulu.

[Kookaburra]

Originally Posted by theillusioness View Post
To the best of my knowledge the only Miscavige in the Sea Org besides DM is his father.

DM's wife Michelle left Int and hasn't been seen or heard for months either, by the people at Int.


Lulubelle said
I would love to hear anything you know about this. I have often wondered about the Secret Life of Shelley Miscavige.

This disappearance is indeed odd. Not even a shore story. Recent escapee's from Int don't know either. Maybe we can take bets. She's.....

1) Feathering a nest in Bulgravia

2) On the RPF at Trementina

3) Blown

4) A Jane Doe in cement boots somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. No embarrassing shotgun wounds to explain to the coroner, like her mother.


There is one more Miscavage. That's Becky. I believe she's still at Int, at least she's on the most recent crew list I've seen. I don't know the relationship. Ron and Bitty's daughter? Does anyone know?


One more while we are on the subject. Midge Hunt, LRH Archives staff, was going to marry Ron Miscavage Sr. back about 1986. Then disappeared into thin air. I never heard a word about it since. Anyone know the skinny on this?

[Vinaire]

This thread nicely brings many complex concepts into play. One of those is the overt-motivator sequence.

"Let me invalidate other people because they have invalidated me."

Karma is an incomplete cycle of action for the individual. That individual must bring that cycle to a completion to be free of that karma.

How does one bring a cycle to completion?

Really look at how it started.

Basic basic!

.

[Tanstaafl]

This thread nicely brings many complex concepts into play. One of those is the overt-motivator sequence.

"Let me invalidate other people because they have invalidated me."

Karma is an incomplete cycle of action for the individual. That individual must bring that cycle to a completion to be free of that karma.

How does one bring a cycle to completion?

Really look at how it started.

Basic basic!

.


Vinaire, does anyone truly know what basic-basic is? The incident that is, not the concept. :) Is it the same type of incident for everyone?

Does anyone consider that they have run out basic-basic?

[Lulu Belle]

There is one more Miscavage. That's Becky. I believe she's still at Int, at least she's on the most recent crew list I've seen. I don't know the relationship. Ron and Bitty's daughter? Does anyone know?


I think she might be Ron Senior's wife.

I know he remarried up there.

[Bea Kiddo]

I think she might be Ron Senior's wife.

I know he remarried up there.

Yes it is his wife. She is a younger blonde girl. There is an age gap. I am trying to remember her maiden name. Dang I suck with names. Lulu, she looks alto like Michele Salinas (the one who married Many Salinas and they blew together and got declared in the 80's sometimes. Incidentally, they are both back on lines because of that 1991 amnesty).

[Vinaire]

Vinaire, does anyone truly know what basic-basic is? The incident that is, not the concept. :) Is it the same type of incident for everyone?

Does anyone consider that they have run out basic-basic?

I have no idea. I just threw it in there for effect.

But what I do understand is that we have cycles within cycles within cycles and the easier route is to unravel it from inside out out just like simplifying a mathematical expression.

The key point is that to "simplify" a cycle of action one must have a good grasp of how it started.

.

[Zinjifar]

I have no idea. I just threw it in there for effect.

But what I do understand is that we have cycles within cycles within cycles and the easier route is to unravel it from inside out out just like simplifying a mathematical expression.

The key point is that to "simplify" a cycle of action one must have a good grasp of how it started.

.

Or, apply the 'Gordian Knot Tech'.

Is the Scientology trip necessary?
Even desirable?

Zinj

[Vinaire]

Or, apply the 'Gordian Knot Tech'.

Is the Scientology trip necessary?
Even desirable?

Zinj

How much of what I stated above is Scientology?

It is all in the point of view.

.

[Zinjifar]

How much of what I stated above is Scientology?

It is all in the point of view.

.

Certainly 'point of view' is involved, but, what you describe; 'cycles of action' and even 'nested cycles of action' is consistent not only with Scientology, but with the pretty thoroughly debunked freudian 'psychanalytic model', where there is an eternal hunt for the 'earliest similar' or 'core trauma'.

What you describe as a mathmatical 'expression' of nested 'cycles of action' presupposes the Hubbardian concept of 'the way out is the way through'.

Which is why I suggested that the 'Gordian Knot Tech' could be an alternative.

When you habitually bang your head against walls, sometimes it's more important to just 'stop' than to discover 'why' you do so.

As an alternative to 'completing a cycle of action', in many cases, it's better to just *abandon* it.

Zinj

[Vinaire]

Certainly 'point of view' is involved, but, what you describe; 'cycles of action' and even 'nested cycles of action' is consistent not only with Scientology, but with the pretty thoroughly debunked freudian 'psychanalytic model', where there is an eternal hunt for the 'earliest similar' or 'core trauma'.

What you describe as a mathmatical 'expression' of nested 'cycles of action' presupposes the Hubbardian concept of 'the way out is the way through'.

Which is why I suggested that the 'Gordian Knot Tech' could be an alternative.

When you habitually bang your head against walls, sometimes it's more important to just 'stop' than to discover 'why' you do so.

As an alternative to 'completing a cycle of action', in many cases, it's better to just *abandon* it.

Zinj

The "cycle of action" concept goes back to the Vedas. I have nothing against your alternative. More power to you.

.

[Lulu Belle]

Yes it is his wife. She is a younger blonde girl. There is an age gap. I am trying to remember her maiden name. Dang I suck with names. Lulu, she looks alto like Michele Salinas (the one who married Many Salinas and they blew together and got declared in the 80's sometimes. Incidentally, they are both back on lines because of that 1991 amnesty).


I vaguely remember what Ron Senior's wife looked like. You're right. She was young and blonde.

The name Manny Salinas sounds vaery familiar, but I can't place him.

(Then again, I lived in South Florida once, and there are maybe a fifty thousand people there named Manny Salinas. So, I might be thinking of someone else...)

[Kookaburra]

Yes it is his wife. She is a younger blonde girl. There is an age gap. I am trying to remember her maiden name. Dang I suck with names. Lulu, she looks alto like Michele Salinas (the one who married Many Salinas and they blew together and got declared in the 80's sometimes. Incidentally, they are both back on lines because of that 1991 amnesty).

Age gap, no kidding! Becky is young enough to be DM's daughter, or younger sister at least. I had no idea she was his step-mother! She used to bunk in our dorm at Pac when she was in LA. Well, Ron Sr. definitely likes 'em young.

[johnAnchovie]

Thank you all for filling me in on Ronnie, I worked with him on and off in CMU Int and other places for years, this is a good man, a kind, intellegent and honest person, I wish him the all the best, he deserves it.

I think that we must be careful to make a very clear distinction between what I call 'The Corporation - i.e. Scn corporate - and the people themselves, you will find that once they are out of the insanity of that world, that they tend to be very genuine people, though I don't count DM in with this, he has gone way beyond the pale.

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

P.S. Thanks Alanzo, you encouraged the thought process that led to my escape, and this the best damb year I have had since joining the SO in 1985.

JohnAnchovie

[Bea Kiddo]

Thank you all for filling me in on Ronnie, I worked with him on and off in CMU Int and other places for years, this is a good man, a kind, intellegent and honest person, I wish him the all the best, he deserves it.

I think that we must be careful to make a very clear distinction between what I call 'The Corporation - i.e. Scn corporate - and the people themselves, you will find that once they are out of the insanity of that world, that they tend to be very genuine people, though I don't count DM in with this, he has gone way beyond the pale.

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

P.S. Thanks Alanzo, you encouraged the thought process that led to my escape, and this the best damb year I have had since joining the SO in 1985.

JohnAnchovie


Welcome JohnAnchovie to the Board!!!! Well done on your escape!!!

I concur with your views on the difference between the people and the corporation. I think you will find others to agree with you on that here too. Please stay a while and enjoy yourself!!!:yes:

[Lulu Belle]

Thank you all for filling me in on Ronnie, I worked with him on and off in CMU Int and other places for years, this is a good man, a kind, intellegent and honest person, I wish him the all the best, he deserves it.

I think that we must be careful to make a very clear distinction between what I call 'The Corporation - i.e. Scn corporate - and the people themselves, you will find that once they are out of the insanity of that world, that they tend to be very genuine people, though I don't count DM in with this, he has gone way beyond the pale.

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

:welcome2:

I'm feeling very emotional about all of this today.

I think that the list Victor published had that effect on me.

It's like it all "hit me".

What DM has done to these people and their lives.

You know?

[Emma]

:welcome2:

I'm feeling very emotional about all of this today.

I think that the list Victor published had that effect on me.

It's like it all "hit me".

What DM has done to these people and their lives.

You know?

I think we need hugs all round.

:bighug: :console: :hug: :grouphug:

[johnAnchovie]

You are a luv!

Over the past year I have been gradually recovering my sense of self, I am at the point where I need and want to interact with former Sceientologists - again I mean the 'corporation', I have started doing so extensivly on EXSO - Mick Wenlocks site, and it really has stirred up some ghosts for me.

I am very happy that the ex corporation community is alive and thriving, and I cannot tell you just how good it is to be among you ex's!

JohnAnchovie

[Alanzo]

Thank you all for filling me in on Ronnie, I worked with him on and off in CMU Int and other places for years, this is a good man, a kind, intellegent and honest person, I wish him the all the best, he deserves it.

I think that we must be careful to make a very clear distinction between what I call 'The Corporation - i.e. Scn corporate - and the people themselves, you will find that once they are out of the insanity of that world, that they tend to be very genuine people, though I don't count DM in with this, he has gone way beyond the pale.

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

P.S. Thanks Alanzo, you encouraged the thought process that led to my escape, and this the best damb year I have had since joining the SO in 1985.

JohnAnchovie

Wow - JohnAnchovie!! Me????

I don't know what to say.
Except: "I'd like to thank the Academy...." :bravo::bravo::bravo:

[Div6]

Vinaire, does anyone truly know what basic-basic is? The incident that is, not the concept. :) Is it the same type of incident for everyone?

Does anyone consider that they have run out basic-basic?

EVERYTHING is too late on the chain...:D

[johnAnchovie]

Quote: Wow - JohnAnchovie!! Me????

I don't know what to say.
Except: "I'd like to thank the Academy...."

Fer chrissakes don't thank the Academy.

Last tiime we talked was on beliefe net, they kicked me out as I was just a little too perspicuous in my views on the corporation.

JohnAnchovie

[Voltaire's Child]

Welcome.

[Lulu Belle]

Last tiime we talked was on beliefe net, they kicked me out as I was just a little too perspicuous


:faint:

(MU)

[Alanzo]

Quote: Wow - JohnAnchovie!! Me????

I don't know what to say.
Except: "I'd like to thank the Academy...."

Fer chrissakes don't thank the Academy.

Last tiime we talked was on beliefe net, they kicked me out as I was just a little too perspicuous in my views on the corporation.

JohnAnchovie
Oh.

So you're from Beliefnet?

I was never there. That was somebody else.

[Kookaburra]

Thank you all for filling me in on Ronnie, I worked with him on and off in CMU Int and other places for years, this is a good man, a kind, intellegent and honest person, I wish him the all the best, he deserves it.

I think that we must be careful to make a very clear distinction between what I call 'The Corporation - i.e. Scn corporate - and the people themselves, you will find that once they are out of the insanity of that world, that they tend to be very genuine people, though I don't count DM in with this, he has gone way beyond the pale.

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

P.S. Thanks Alanzo, you encouraged the thought process that led to my escape, and this the best damb year I have had since joining the SO in 1985.

JohnAnchovie

Welcome to the board! :happydance:

I think that Scn staff for the most part are not only very genuine people after they get out, they were that way before they got in, indeed it is almost a prerequisite for getting in. Greedy, selfish people don't usually dedicate their lives to the service of others....funny thing, that.

I am glad to hear you are out and doing well. It is an interesting common R, isn't it?

Regards,

Kookaburra

[Lulu Belle]

I think that Scn staff for the most part are not only very genuine people after they get out, they were that way before they got in, indeed it is almost a prerequisite for getting in. Greedy, selfish people don't usually dedicate their lives to the service of others....funny thing, that.

:goodposting:

[Voltaire's Child]

I've noticed the same thing. Nasty people make nasty Scn'ists.Nice people generally are pretty decent as Scn'ists, with some exceptions-- but then again, decent people have the potential to be mean and bad, etc. We all have negative traits.

I read a very cool book- a thriller written before 9/11- and it was a novel about these people on a jet who get hijacked by terrorists. Anyway, what struck me is that there were passengers who turned on each other, sucked up to the terrorists and were very quick to try to "get" other passengers. Then, later, when they were rescued, those particular people were self aggrandizing in press interviews.

I believe that there are more people like that around than one might think and that this is a common phenom in CofS.

[Alanzo]

I've noticed the same thing. Nasty people make nasty Scn'ists.Nice people generally are pretty decent as Scn'ists, with some exceptions-- but then again, decent people have the potential to be mean and bad, etc. We all have negative traits.

I read a very cool book- a thriller written before 9/11- and it was a novel about these people on a jet who get hijacked by terrorists. Anyway, what struck me is that there were passengers who turned on each other, sucked up to the terrorists and were very quick to try to "get" other passengers. Then, later, when they were rescued, those particular people were self aggrandizing in press interviews.

I believe that there are more people like that around than one might think and that this is a common phenom in CofS.

Fluffy -

Are you familiar with the ideas and concepts which come from the Stanford Prison Experiment? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

The data that comes from this and other experiments tends to contradict what you say, specifically your long-standing conclusion that ..."Nasty people make nasty Scn'ists. Nice people generally are pretty decent as Scn'ists..."

From the conclusion in this article:

"In psychology, the results of the experiment are said to support situational attributions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics) of behavior rather than dispositional attribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispositional_attribution). In other words, it seemed the situation caused the participants' behavior, rather than anything inherent in their individual personalities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_psychology). In this way, it is compatible with the results of the also-famous Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment), in which ordinary people fulfilled orders to administer what appeared to be damaging electric shocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock) to a confederate of the experimenter."

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on these ideas and concepts?

[Little Bear Victor]

I am one who got out after twenty years, and I hope that I am a good and genuine person now.

JohnAnchovie

Hi John and welcome!

I (as many of us) know that feeling. (I'm working on that good and genuine part.)

I'm recent arrival myself, after almost 20 years in the "system."

On this MB, you are like at home! (Especially if you are at home)

Victor

[johnAnchovie]

Thaks Fluffy, Koockabara, Vic et al for your warm welcome... Oh and Alanzo, who I never met on bnet. - his twin brother over there was pretty cool tho'.

This effort to connect up with others is I suppose is a stage in the recovery from oppressive/manipulative cult phenomena, I began doing this firstly with Mick W's exso site and it realy is quite an emotional experience. Even though I am out for just over a year, I am making a considerale effort to come to terms with what I was involved with, the disillusionment, the rage and the despair at being so conned, I suppose each and all of you have gone through this to both greater and lesser degrees.

You seem like a really good bunch of people, well informed, intellegent and willing to have a laugh as well as deal with fairly heavy issues. It is good be here with you.

[The Oracle]

I've noticed the same thing. Nasty people make nasty Scn'ists.Nice people generally are pretty decent as Scn'ists, with some exceptions-- but then again, decent people have the potential to be mean and bad, etc. We all have negative traits.

I read a very cool book- a thriller written before 9/11- and it was a novel about these people on a jet who get hijacked by terrorists. Anyway, what struck me is that there were passengers who turned on each other, sucked up to the terrorists and were very quick to try to "get" other passengers. Then, later, when they were rescued, those particular people were self aggrandizing in press interviews.

I believe that there are more people like that around than one might think and that this is a common phenom in CofS.

I agree with you Fluffy on this 100%, I couldn't have said it better.

[Alanzo]

So, we find that Ronnie Miscavage has been out for 8 about years. And his daughter is now speaking out.

Do you think Ronnie might speak out, too?

Do you think he feels any responsibility to do so?

[Dulloldfart]

So, we find that Ronnie Miscavage has been out for 8 about years. And his daughter is now speaking out.

Do you think Ronnie might speak out, too?

Do you think he feels any responsibility to do so?

Ask him (http://ronmiscavige.lnfre.com/falcon/webui/lnfwelcomepage.aspx), Alanzo. :)

Paul

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Ask him (http://ronmiscavige.lnfre.com/falcon/webui/lnfwelcomepage.aspx), Alanzo. :)

Paul

Okay, I just did.

[duddins]

Okay, I just did.

Please let us know what you find out, friends!

[Alanzo]

Hey!!! I GOT AN IDEA!!!!

You know how, after course, we used to write letters to students who were blown?

Well, let's all write Ronnie and get him to show up for the ESMB and get him back moving on the ESMB Bridge to Total Status!!! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

[johnAnchovie]

Hey!!! I GOT AN IDEA!!!!

You know how, after course, we used to write letters to students who were blown?

Well, let's all write Ronnie and get him to show up for the ESMB and get him back moving on the ESMB Bridge to Total Status!!! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

Just leave Ronnie alone for fecks sake, he is a good man, and he has an awful lot to deal with.

We are all here because we want to be, we are are dealing with issues because we want to, we have no right to dictate the recovery process of anyone unless it is adversly effecting our own; i.e. people trying to 'disseminate' Scn tech to people who really don't want it.

What would be good would be to invite Davy over here, I would love to bug him with emails and letters... maybe send him his own personal anonymous video clip :D

[Zinjifar]

Just leave Ronnie alone for fecks sake, he is a good man, and he has an awful lot to deal with.


Among other things: obstruction of justice, accessory before and after the fact to numerous crimes.

As starters...

Zinj

[Alanzo]

Just leave Ronnie alone for fecks sake, he is a good man, and he has an awful lot to deal with.

We are all here because we want to be, we are are dealing with issues because we want to, we have no right to dictate the recovery process of anyone unless it is adversly effecting our own; i.e. people trying to 'disseminate' Scn tech to people who really don't want it.

Party Pooper.

[johnAnchovie]

Party Pooper.

You go and play with Davy and Tom... just leave some for the rest of the kids.

Ronnie was in Marketing, Zinj, he did not work in OSA. I probably did more illegal activities on behalf the corporation than he did, unless he knew about or was involved in the 'best seller' scam, in which case he needs to go to confession and seek absolution... but I think that was a Bridge Pubs/LRH PPRO operation.

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Hey!!! I GOT AN IDEA!!!!

You know how, after course, we used to write letters to students who were blown?

Well, let's all write Ronnie and get him to show up for the ESMB and get him back moving on the ESMB Bridge to Total Status!!! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

I told him about ESMB and spelled it out too.

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

You go and play with Davy and Tom... just leave some for the rest of the kids.

Ronnie was in Marketing, Zinj, he did not work in OSA. I probably did more illegal activities on behalf the corporation than he did, unless he knew about or was involved in the 'best seller' scam, in which case he needs to go to confession and seek absolution... but I think that was a Bridge Pubs/LRH PPRO operation.

What was the 'best seller' scam?

[Div6]

What was the 'best seller' scam?

Giving $ to staff to go buy LRH books at the wog bookstores to generste false stats for the NY times "Best Seller Lists" for DMSMH and the sci-fi releases....

They would then return them...

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Giving $ to staff to go buy LRH books at the wog bookstores to generste false stats for the NY times "Best Seller Lists" for DMSMH and the sci-fi releases....

They would then return them...

Tacky.

[Dulloldfart]

I told him about ESMB and spelled it out too.

I would guess that he's laying low (comparatively) and paying off (or paid off; or it was cancelled) his F/L bill. And was polite but not too interested in ESMB.

Do you think he'll show up here, Colleen?

Paul

[Alanzo]

He can certainly pass along the invitation to Jenna. I'd love to meet her and tell her ROCK ON!!!

Her old auditor is here, too. (Bea Kiddo)

[duddins]

Re: Ronnie



Don't underestimate the power of the Message board!:bwahaha:


Plant the seed.....it cannot hurt. If he looks away...that is his choice. :)

[duddins]

Giving $ to staff to go buy LRH books at the wog bookstores to generste false stats for the NY times "Best Seller Lists" for DMSMH and the sci-fi releases....

They would then return them...



I think I want to throw up or fart or something.:puke:......pathetic!

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

I would guess that he's laying low (comparatively) and paying off (or paid off; or it was cancelled) his F/L bill. And was polite but not too interested in ESMB.

Do you think he'll show up here, Colleen?

Paul

I felt the probability was low, at least at this time, but I also felt it planted a seed, because when people are busy non-confronting, they pull it in, n'cest pas?

[Dulloldfart]

I felt the probability was low, at least at this time, but I also felt it planted a seed, because when people are busy non-confronting, they pull it in, n'cest pas?

True. The media knocking at his door to ask about his brother might help too. :)

Paul

[Lulu Belle]

Giving $ to staff to go buy LRH books at the wog bookstores to generste false stats for the NY times "Best Seller Lists" for DMSMH and the sci-fi releases....

They would then return them...

http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Scientology/sandiego.txt

[Alanzo]

Dear Ronnie Miscavige -

Good on you for supporting your daughter while she helped found ExScientologyKids.org, and for supporting her throughout her media appearances.

I can see what you did there.

Thanks.

Alanzo

[sandygirl]

Com'on Alanzo

A little crypitc here....... please clarify

[Alanzo]

Com'on Alanzo

A little crypitc here....... please clarify

If you'll read the first 30 or so posts in this thread, you'll see that I pretty much crucified Ronnie Miscavige for doing nothing to correct the abuses in the Church, despite his being one of the heads of Scientology during those abuses, and presiding over one in my specific case.

He's now been out of Scientology for almost ten years.

Since this thread was started, Jenna Miscavige Hill, his daughter, has emerged to speak out on abuses the in Church - directly and publicly challenging her uncle, David Miscavige.

I don't know, but I have a sense that Ronnie helped. At least he didn't do anything effective to stop it.

I wanted to thank him for that.

[Dulloldfart]

I don't know, but I have a sense that Ronnie helped. At least he didn't do anything effective to stop it.


Tenuous. He hasn't done anything effective to stop his brother either, has he?

Paul

[Alanzo]

Tenuous. He hasn't done anything effective to stop his brother either, has he?

Paul

His daughter has.

That's what I mean.

[Smitty]

I spoke with Ronnie in 1978 at the FLB when he was on the RPF, which he completed very quickly. Ronnie had good communication and was business-like. He may or may not have attempted to reform or temper his psychopathic brother's actions. But Davey being a psychopath, there is no known method to reform such people.
Ronnie and his wife, Bitty, are free now, and know the score with corporate scientology. I hope we can look at any past actions of theirs in the context of them trying to do the right thing while working for corporate scientology.
Smitty

[Iknowtoomuch]

Is he a plant for the church????

[Dulloldfart]

Ronnie and his wife, Bitty, are free now, and know the score with corporate scientology.


They do?

Paul

P.S. I fixed it for you. :)

[Feral]

Is he a plant for the church????

Who IKTM?

[Iknowtoomuch]

Who IKTM?

Ronnie.

[bojanglest]

Is he a plant for the church????

No, he's the one who gets David Miscavige's real estate deals.

[Iknowtoomuch]

No, he's the one who gets David Miscavige's real estate deals.

That's what I meant.

[Dulloldfart]

No, he's the one who gets David Miscavige's real estate deals.

Isn't a real estate license only valid in the state that issued it?

Paul

[Iknowtoomuch]

Isn't a real estate license only valid in the state that issued it?

Paul



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