The direction of OT

[Vinaire]

Going in the direction of OT is going in the direction of becoming "full of self."

That is the direction of arrogance.
That is the direction of status.
That is the direction of madness.

http://isene.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/understanding-miscavige/#comment-16928

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

Going in the direction of OT is going in the direction of becoming "full of self."

That is the direction of arrogance.
That is the direction of status.
That is the direction of madness.

http://isene.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/understanding-miscavige/#comment-16928

Hubbard's ideal of OT was he had replaced your own mind with his construct imho.
The personality of it is besides the point, we already know how abstract that is, but the fact remains that all his crap was designed to manipulate and control the people at large.
It all is designed to lose 'you', control 'you', make a willing slave of 'you'.
Irregardless of the over-all fuckery of it all, the whole mess off-balances the soul so much that it becomes subjugated and torn apart.
Then, within this pseudo-scientifical mind-fuck, when one is weakened, softened, and tenderized, the real mind-replacement begins, and, of couse, it all looks like a list of wins~ heh.
Trouble is, I believe, is that Hubbard didn't (thankfully) understand the resiliance of the human's basic spark, and thus it occasionally occures that folks catch on to the scam.................. so here (esmb) within the membership are people who have done it all, or most, and come out of it all in various stages of realisation, damage, and fairly pissed off-ted-ness. Though there are some lofty goals imagined in OT crap, bottom line is its like selling you the water in your own body to yourself..

Yarr, sry about the mini-rant man, was probably agreeing some-what

 

[uniquemand]

I think that Hubbard's definition of OT was logically inconsistent, magical thinking. If, instead, people had been trained to think of OT as a set of skills (seeing what charge was stirred, if any, and then handling it; creating realistic estimation of effort plans to achieve goals that were stated in real terms and then executing those plans; learning to control your own attention and intention, learning to handle other people with care and genuine desire to help them IN THEIR OWN EFFORTS, rather than manipulating them as pieces in your game, etc.), and to see themselves as ADEPTS, rather than as entitled godlings, it may have been different. But Hubbard was SELLING, and he knew his desired market: he wanted to get PAID by people who HAVE MONEY: he wanted to "make the able more able", and that means "servicing" entitled assholes who want to be godlings!

 

[Stat]

I am just happy for Geir Isene, OT V III, who is no longer a Scientologist.
Getting through all that mindfuck, getting out of it and sharing/educating.
Kudos to Geir Isene. He is a good man. I wish him well.

 

[Vinaire]

Hubbard's ideal of OT was he had replaced your own mind with his construct imho.
The personality of it is besides the point, we already know how abstract that is, but the fact remains that all his crap was designed to manipulate and control the people at large.
It all is designed to lose 'you', control 'you', make a willing slave of 'you'.
Irregardless of the over-all fuckery of it all, the whole mess off-balances the soul so much that it becomes subjugated and torn apart.
Then, within this pseudo-scientifical mind-fuck, when one is weakened, softened, and tenderized, the real mind-replacement begins, and, of couse, it all looks like a list of wins~ heh.
Trouble is, I believe, is that Hubbard didn't (thankfully) understand the resiliance of the human's basic spark, and thus it occasionally occures that folks catch on to the scam.................. so here (esmb) within the membership are people who have done it all, or most, and come out of it all in various stages of realisation, damage, and fairly pissed off-ted-ness. Though there are some lofty goals imagined in OT crap, bottom line is its like selling you the water in your own body to yourself..

Yarr, sry about the mini-rant man, was probably agreeing some-what

What is SELF? It is the seed for ego.

That is what OT levels give a boost too.

That SELF is already there.

.

 

[Vinaire]

I think that Hubbard's definition of OT was logically inconsistent, magical thinking. If, instead, people had been trained to think of OT as a set of skills (seeing what charge was stirred, if any, and then handling it; creating realistic estimation of effort plans to achieve goals that were stated in real terms and then executing those plans; learning to control your own attention and intention, learning to handle other people with care and genuine desire to help them IN THEIR OWN EFFORTS, rather than manipulating them as pieces in your game, etc.), and to see themselves as ADEPTS, rather than as entitled godlings, it may have been different. But Hubbard was SELLING, and he knew his desired market: he wanted to get PAID by people who HAVE MONEY: he wanted to "make the able more able", and that means "servicing" entitled assholes who want to be godlings!

That seems right!

There are quite a few people gone mad with that "magical thinking."

Look at what happened to Hubbard.

.

.

 

[Vinaire]

I am just happy for Geir Isene, OT V III, who is no longer a Scientologist.
Getting through all that mindfuck, getting out of it and sharing/educating.
Kudos to Geir Isene. He is a good man. I wish him well.

I am happy for Geir too. He still has a long way to go toward recovery.

.

 

[GoNuclear]

The direction of oatee was generally in the direction of the office of the redge. A public clam who constantly headed in that direction generally went broke. They would then get a new name ... "staffer" and if not that one one of several choice other names such as joker and degrader, db, pts, or espee ... but see us, of course, if you ever get your hands on more money.

Pete

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

What is SELF? It is the seed for ego.

That is what OT levels give a boost too.

That SELF is already there.

.

Hmmmmmmmm...

Hopefully it is who you think for

 

[BardoThodol]

Actually, words have all sorts of definitions. In the practical sense, Scientology "OT" does seem to lead to selfishness, madness, arrogance and a lot of trouble for self.

However, not all who do the OT levels end up that way. Some actually are enlightened beings. Perhaps, having nothing or little to do with Scientology's practice.

"Theta" was supposed to be thought. And thought was supposed to be awareness which was experienced by a thinker or spirit or "thetan."

Operating was supposed to be simply being capable of cause over outcomes and conditions created by thought.

To gain the highest states of spiritual awareness are very, very old goals. That was what I came to Scientology for.

The higher one's awareness, the less madness, the less arrogance, the less selfishness. Those who are truly enlightened just don't act like Scientology "OT's." Those who reach enough enlightenment grasp that causative thought/spirit should be used to enhance the life of others--as an actual event rather than merely lip service as occurs in the CofS.

Enhancing the life of all others has nothing to do with "we're right and you're wrong," so whatever we do to make ourselves stronger is good. Enhancing the life of others has a great deal to do with embracing differences and allowing for other viewpoints.

The problem with Scientology "OT" is the merger of viewpoint into a ONE-RIGHT-VIEWPOINT.

But, that really isn't OT now, is it?

 

[Commander Birdsong]

What is SELF? It is the seed for ego.

That is what OT levels give a boost too.

That SELF is already there.

.

it is selftanscendance (not selfnegation) that is key to spiritual power

 

[Veda]

From the Scientology 'Tech Dictionary':

"Operating Thetan, a thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space and time... an individual who can operate totally independently of his body whether he had one or didn't have one... a being at cause over matter, energy, space and time, form and life. Operating comes from 'able to operate without dependency on things'... ability to operate functionally against or with MEST and other life forms... this state of being is attained by drills and familiarity after the state of Clear has been obtained."

In 1965, Clear was presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in 1967, OT 3 was presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in the early 1970s, the Ls were presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in the late 1970s, NOTs was presented as removing the final barrier to OT.

Up to the late 1970s, OT 8 was the top and final OT level, and was described as "Total Freedom and Total Power."

After Hubbard had established his cult, and some people were beginning to wonder, "Where are the OTs?," the Grade Chart was changed, with old "OT 8" (which was never released, and never actually existed) disappearing and being replaced with "New OT 8." "New OT 8" was then not the final or top OT level but the first OT level: Bait and Switch accomplished. Well adjusted Scientologists nodded approvingly.

From the 'History [This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years] of Man', by L. Ron Hubbard, 1952, originally titled 'What to Audit':

"...may I make this simple request? Don't get spectacular until a few of the boys make it. You don't want to be lonesome and you'll need reinforcements if a war gets declared on thetans here. The preclear may think he can do it alone if he gets cleared of a body he'll need more help and company than he thinks. So, again, as a final note on this chapter, let's not go upsetting governments and putting on a show to 'prove' anything to homo sapiens for a while; it's a horrible temptation to knock off hats at fifty yards and read books a couple of countries away and get into the rotogravure section and the Hearst Weeklies but you'll just make it tough on somebody else who is trying to get across this bridge. Let sleeping sapiens snore in the bulk for yet awhile. Then meet some place and decide what to do about him and his two penny wars, his insane and his prisons. Tell people who want to invalidate all this, 'Your criticism is very just. It's only fantasy.' Cure up the lame and halt and the incompetent with whatever display of technique you need. Protect theta clearing until there are a few."

From old timer John Sanborn:

"In a Phoenix Congress... he talked about spooky whole track stuff. He had a floodlight on the floor in front of this little platform shining up, because that makes you look ghouly. And his face looked really weird and outer space and really crazy... and he talked weird... I think he was trying to drive people a little bit wacko so they'd fall into his hand a little bit."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpHhJKeTYxI

Hubbard and Scientology have been selling superhuman abilities, including godlike "cause over MEST," for a long time.

The usual sequence was and is:

1) Promise super human abilities.

2) Take money, gain confidence, assert influence over the eager future Scientology superman&god.

3) Then take more money, and exert more influence.

4) Finally, many years later, explain that what you originally said, or what Ron originally said, actually meant something else.

 

[Vinaire]

Actually, words have all sorts of definitions. In the practical sense, Scientology "OT" does seem to lead to selfishness, madness, arrogance and a lot of trouble for self.

However, not all who do the OT levels end up that way. Some actually are enlightened beings. Perhaps, having nothing or little to do with Scientology's practice.

"Theta" was supposed to be thought. And thought was supposed to be awareness which was experienced by a thinker or spirit or "thetan."

Operating was supposed to be simply being capable of cause over outcomes and conditions created by thought.

To gain the highest states of spiritual awareness are very, very old goals. That was what I came to Scientology for.

The higher one's awareness, the less madness, the less arrogance, the less selfishness. Those who are truly enlightened just don't act like Scientology "OT's." Those who reach enough enlightenment grasp that causative thought/spirit should be used to enhance the life of others--as an actual event rather than merely lip service as occurs in the CofS.

Enhancing the life of all others has nothing to do with "we're right and you're wrong," so whatever we do to make ourselves stronger is good. Enhancing the life of others has a great deal to do with embracing differences and allowing for other viewpoints.

The problem with Scientology "OT" is the merger of viewpoint into a ONE-RIGHT-VIEWPOINT.

But, that really isn't OT now, is it?

Scientology is all about boosting up self that is supposedly "immortal." That action accelerates on the OT levels. NOTE: Buddhism considers self to be extinguishable (nirvana). Scientology denies nirvana.

Words, such as, "operating thetan" don't mean much. It is the effect of OT levels that counts, and that effect is to make one "full of self."

A person who comes out sane at the other end of the OT levels, was, probably, enlightened to start with, or could stand up to the mindfuck of OT levels.

OT levels are not pushing those very, very old goals of spiritual awareness. They are pushing something else.

Those very,very old goals of spiritual awareness are correctly addressed here:

Diamond Sutra of Buddha

.

 

[Vinaire]

it is selftanscendance (not selfnegation) that is key to spiritual power

Correct. It is extinguising (nirvana) of the self.

.

 

[Vinaire]

From the Scientology 'Tech Dictionary':

"Operating Thetan, a thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space and time... an individual who can operate totally independently of his body whether he had one or didn't have one... a being at cause over matter, energy, space and time, form and life. Operating comes from 'able to operate without dependency on things'... ability to operate functionally against or with MEST and other life forms... this state of being is attained by drills and familiarity after the state of Clear has been obtained."

...

The whole concept of OT as described above is nothing but a yarn.

The basic assumption that physical and spiritual are two separate systems is incorrect. Physical and spiritual are simply two different aspects of the same system.

There is no thetan or soul that exists without the body.

But, Hubbard did a good sales job of covincing people otherwise.

.

 

[BardoThodol]

Scientology is all about boosting up self that is supposedly "immortal." That action accelerates on the OT levels. NOTE: Buddhism considers self to be extinguishable (nirvana). Scientology denies nirvana.

Words, such as, "operating thetan" don't mean much. It is the effect of OT levels that counts, and that effect is to make one "full of self."

A person who comes out sane at the other end of the OT levels, was, probably, enlightened to start with, or could stand up to the mindfuck of OT levels.

OT levels are not pushing those very, very old goals of spiritual awareness. They are pushing something else.

Those very,very old goals of spiritual awareness are correctly addressed here:

Diamond Sutra of Buddha

.

Thanks for the reference to Diamond Sutra. I love how easy learning becomes using the internet.

Thing about "self" is why does that which lies beyond self and mind, that which the Diamond Sutra speaks of, why does this continue to create "selfs?" Why does it continue to create illusions? Why does it continue to create minds?

I realize there are pat answers to those questions. I realize every philosophy develops catechisms of explanation. But, I see the catechisms and pat answers as a hinderance to direct insight and understanding.

The Diamond Sutra and such philosophies tend to accept that there is a wisdom or truth or enlightenment (chose whatever term you wish) which is constant and immutable. The illusions and untruths simply "prevent" the awareness that precedes self from knowing what it knows in the first place. I think this is true. It's what I've observed and experienced.

But, there is something more.

In a practical sense, knowledge is constantly evolving. Though there may be immutable truths that lie beneath all we witness, there are also evolving truths manifesting newly.

That which once was (that Prime Awareness) may still be, but it has also changed, often in ways which elude detection or explanation.

 

[Vinaire]

Thanks for the reference to Diamond Sutra. I love how easy learning becomes using the internet.

Thing about "self" is why does that which lies beyond self and mind, that which the Diamond Sutra speaks of, why does this continue to create "selfs?" Why does it continue to create illusions? Why does it continue to create minds?

I realize there are pat answers to those questions. I realize every philosophy develops catechisms of explanation. But, I see the catechisms and pat answers as a hinderance to direct insight and understanding.

The Diamond Sutra and such philosophies tend to accept that there is a wisdom or truth or enlightenment (chose whatever term you wish) which is constant and immutable. The illusions and untruths simply "prevent" the awareness that precedes self from knowing what it knows in the first place. I think this is true. It's what I've observed and experienced.

But, there is something more.

In a practical sense, knowledge is constantly evolving. Though there may be immutable truths that lie beneath all we witness, there are also evolving truths manifesting newly.

That which once was (that Prime Awareness) may still be, but it has also changed, often in ways which elude detection or explanation.

Have you studied the Diamond Sutra in detail?

.

 

[BardoThodol]

Have you studied the Diamond Sutra in detail?

.

Vinaire,

Nah. That's why I said thanks for the reference. Had never even heard of that particular work. I read the Cliff-Notes version in the reference (which seemed to jibe with several other works I'd read about Buddhism) then put it on my "to read" list.

Right now, I'm looking at some Alan Watts, Joseph Campbell and Stephen Baxter. Bouncing back and forth between authors can make ideas vibrate in unexpected ways.

 

[Vinaire]

Vinaire,

Nah. That's why I said thanks for the reference. Had never even heard of that particular work. I read the Cliff-Notes version in the reference (which seemed to jibe with several other works I'd read about Buddhism) then put it on my "to read" list.

Right now, I'm looking at some Alan Watts, Joseph Campbell and Stephen Baxter. Bouncing back and forth between authors can make ideas vibrate in unexpected ways.

I thought so because your off the cuff comment about Diamond Sutra didn't make any sense.

.

 

[Demented LRH]

Going in the direction of OT is going in the direction of becoming "full of self."

That is the direction of arrogance.
That is the direction of status.
That is the direction of madness.

http://isene.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/understanding-miscavige/#comment-16928

That is the direction of OT hallucinations.