Draconian mind control Ls

[Veda]

I was surprised to see Karen#1 describing the L's as "draconian mind control."

Have read the Ls, but have never audited them. I have witnessed those who've completed them, including those returning from the flagship in the early 1970s. They usually fell into two types: absolute purple-faced fanatics, and vaguely uneasy Ls completions, who, apparently, felt they had not achieved the promised EP - which included "stably exterior with full perception" - but were afraid to admit it.

Here's a recent video of a CofS L's completion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hZGi7cBvd5w

The two most prominent sellers of the L's in Independent Scientology are Pierre Ethier and Trey Lotz.

Videos of both Pierre and Trey discussing the L's can be found on the net.

My concern is the psychological effects that such actions have on their recipients.

If these two auditors are indeed selling draconian mind control then, IMO, they need to be contacted, and the subject needs to be discussed with them.

 

[Karen#1]

I was surprised to see Karen#1 describing the L's as "draconian mind control."

Have read the Ls, but have never audited them. I have witnessed those who've completed them, including those returning from the flagship in the early 1970s. They usually fell into two types: absolute purple-faced fanatics, and vaguely uneasy Ls completions, who, apparently, felt they had not achieved the promised EP - which included "stably exterior with full perception" - but were afraid to admit it.

Here's a recent video of a CofS L's completion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hZGi7cBvd5w

The two most prominent sellers of the L's in Independent Scientology are Pierre Ethier and Trey Lotz.

Videos of both Pierre and Trey discussing the L's can be found on the net.

My concern is the psychological effects that such actions have on their recipients.

If these two auditors are indeed selling draconian mind control then, IMO, they need to be contacted, and the subject needs to be discussed with them.

No, I did not state all Ls are draconian Mind Control.
THE CURRENT DAVID MISCAVIGE LS ARE MIND CONTROL.
They have been altered and twisted and are outright harmful.
Bent Corydon author of "Madman or Messiah" recently told me about the Ls I delivered to him on the Flag Ship Apollo
in the 1970s.
He told me it was a fabulous experience which he remembers to this day as a highlight of his auditing time track.​

 

[Lone Star]

I was surprised to see Karen#1 describing the L's as "draconian mind control."

Have read the Ls, but have never audited them. I have witnessed those who've completed them, including those returning from the flagship in the early 1970s. They usually fell into two types: absolute purple-faced fanatics, and vaguely uneasy Ls completions, who, apparently, felt they had not achieved the promised EP - which included "stably exterior with full perception" - but were afraid to admit it.

Here's a recent video of a CofS L's completion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hZGi7cBvd5w

The two most prominent sellers of the L's in Independent Scientology are Pierre Ethier and Trey Lotz.

Videos of both Pierre and Trey discussing the L's can be found on the net.

My concern is the psychological effects that such actions have on their recipients.

If these two auditors are indeed selling draconian mind control then, IMO, they need to be contacted, and the subject needs to be discussed with them.

A friend of mine did the L's in the very late 80s. He largely credited the L's for caving him in. Within a year he ended up losing his business, home, and the whole life he had built up to that point. To this day he hasn't recovered completely. Of course he was told that the L's would do the exact opposite.

I know another person, an OT8, who did them a few years ago. He went through a period of being very emotionally unstable upon return from Flag. Seems to be back to just his "normal" state of nuttiness now.

 

[Veda]

No, I did not state all Ls are draconian Mind Control.
THE CURRENT DAVID MISCAVIGE LS ARE MIND CONTROL.
They have been altered and twisted and are outright harmful.

-snip-

​

When you wrote "the draconian mind control Ls" you left it vague, allowing the reader to assume that were you distancing yourself from LRH tech.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Karen#1]

Lisa Mcpherson, proudly displaying an "L-11" cert of Miscavology L-11 ~~~ 3 weeks before she took off her clothes and walked naked on Fort Harrison Avenue and then.........​

 

[Gib]

No, I did not state all Ls are draconian Mind Control.
THE CURRENT DAVID MISCAVIGE LS ARE MIND CONTROL.

They have been altered and twisted and are outright harmful.

Bent Corydon author of "Madman or Messiah" recently told me about the Ls I delivered to him on the Flag Ship Apollo
in the 1970s.
He told me it was a fabulous experience which he remembers to this day as a highlight of his auditing time track.​

sounds like a new video you can make. :confused2:

 

[Dean Blair]

The video posted by Veda shows a woman who completed the Ls in 2007. From her speech and actions she seems to me to be a bit gleeful and cuckoo. This would not be a good PR video to sell others on the Ls. As Karen said, this is the result of Miscavology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hZGi7cBvd5w

I have no other experiences with the Ls delivered earlier.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I can believe that the Ls after Miscavige were draconian mind control.

And I can believe that the Ls before Miscavige were run-of-the-mill mind control.

Seriously, I think the whole ball of wax are simply techniques to make people focus on inner thoughts to the point of mesmerization.

And to that the fact that the whole atmosphere in Scientology adds suggestibility on top of the introversion to create a Hubbard mindset in the individual.

That is why I suspect when a person talks of his wins the process worked on him and he fell further into the trap.

People can read it how every they want, but that's my take based on my experiences and observations.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Veda]

The video posted by Veda shows a woman who completed the Ls in 2007. From her speech and actions she seems to me to be a bit gleeful and cuckoo. This would not be a good PR video to sell others on the Ls. As Karen said, this is the result of Miscavology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hZGi7cBvd5w

Yup. That's the only video I could find.

I haven't had much interest in the Ls, but there is some content on the Ls on ESMB, and some of that concerns the Ls from when Hubbard was running things. Due to the awful search function on ESMB, finding it wouldn't be easy, and I'm not going to take the time to try.

I posted this thread solely to clarify something, and that's been done.

I have no other experiences with the Ls delivered earlier.

I have, and the person in the video is not that dissimilar from many other - Hubbard era - Ls completions I've seen.

There's a whole topic here, concerning the Ls (There are 3 of them), and how Hubbard used them: to create super gung-ho producers for Scientology (with one L in particular), and to make money under false pretenses (one - the most popular with "public pcs" - promised stably exterior with full perception), even promising - in promo - that a (public) person would not leave the Apollo until he was exterior with full perception, etc., and then, when the public person didn't get that result, the person would be told that he or she had a "hidden standard," and then be unceremoniously removed from the ship.

However, this has not been an area upon which I've focused or have had much interest.

If someone has a link to the original (1970s) Ls material, that would be good to have posted. I've already seen it - on paper - but it might be worth glancing at for those mildly curious.

 

[Free to shine]

I was one of the guinea pigs when Hubbard was developing the Ls. It nearly did me in. And yes, I did attest to something or other at the time, I was so totally mind fucked I thought I was to blame for all the bad things in the world but like a good little ronbot I smiled and wrote a success story and was released back into the world with the most enormous emotional burden you can imagine. Luckily I was young and had the resilience to survive, although it wasn't until I wrote about it here on ESMB that I recovered from the harm done.

 

[Leon]

I was a guinea pig pc too for L-11 - then known as L-9. Lisa Klingvall was my auditor and I came out of it just fine thank you. Loved it and the resuls were superb.

 

[Veda]

The people I saw were the actual "products" of the finalized Ls from the early 1970s - people who had been to the ship.

There was a tremendous mystique about the Ls, and encountering its "products" was always a bit of a let down, and sometimes - in the case of the super gung ho producers for LRH - mildly annoying, if not downright scary. Although I never thought much about it. I couldn't afford the expensive Ls anyway, and was mainly concerned, like most Scientologists, with completing my next Scientology action on the regular Grade Chart - the Ls were "fabulous OT boosters" and were not on the usual Grade Chart.

Someone posting the actual materials - by link - would be good.

 

[Veda]

I was one of the guinea pigs when Hubbard was developing the Ls. It nearly did me in. And yes, I did attest to something or other at the time, I was so totally mind fucked I thought I was to blame for all the bad things in the world but like a good little ronbot I smiled and wrote a success story and was released back into the world with the most enormous emotional burden you can imagine. Luckily I was young and had the resilience to survive, although it wasn't until I wrote about it here on ESMB that I recovered from the harm done.

Thanks for the account, Free to shine. I remember your posting on the subject. It was riveting.

The prevailing view, hereabouts, seems to be that the Tech was just fine until "SP" Miscavige came along an altered it.

 

[Karen#1]

I was a guinea pig pc too for L-11 - then known as L-9. Lisa Klingvall was my auditor and I came out of it just fine thank you. Loved it and the resuls were superb.

Thank you Leon.
Bent Corydon spoke with me on the phone earlier this evening.
He told he had very good wins on the Ls I gave him in the 7Os that he remembers to this day.
And Bent has no love for anything in Scientology.
It is good when someone like Bent can say something like that.
He has never forgotten his Ls.

Cheers Bent !​

 

[TG1]

Thanks for the account, Free to shine. I remember your posting on the subject. It was riveting.

The prevailing view, hereabouts, seems to be that the Tech was just fine until "SP" Miscavige came along an altered it.

Yes, thanks, FFS -- I didn't realize you'd had any Ls experience. I'm glad you've recovered from it all by now.

Veda, I disagree that the prevailing view here at ESMB is that Hubbard's Tech was just fine until Miscavige altered it. IMO, that's a tremendously inaccurate reading of what is said here day in, day out.

TG1

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Veda, I disagree that the prevailing view here at ESMB is that Hubbard's Tech was just fine until Miscavige altered it. IMO, that's a tremendously inaccurate reading of what is said here day in, day out.

TG1

Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

Thank you Leon.
Bent Corydon spoke with me on the phone earlier this evening.
He told he had very good wins on the Ls I gave him in the 7Os that he remembers to this day.
And Bent has no love for anything in Scientology.
It is good when someone like Bent can say something like that.
He has never forgotten his Ls.

Cheers Bent !​

Bent was being nice to you.

But are you being nice to him by writing, on the Internet, about your private phone conversations with him?

And solely to toot your own horn and to promote the tech.

IMO, that's selfish and reckless.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Bent was being nice to you. ....

And you know that how?

You've stated this as if it were a fact even though you were not privy to the conversation. What is the factual basis for your conclusion, or are you once again simply speaking ex cathedra, i.e. just blowing smoke?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Purple Rain]

And you know that how?

You've stated this as if it were a fact even though you were not privy to the conversation. What is the factual basis for your conclusion, or are you once again simply speaking ex cathedra, i.e. just blowing smoke?


Mark A. Baker

Maybe he just thinks that Bent is an untruthful person.

 

[DonkeyOT]

Got L-12 at "Flag" in 1979. Cl 12 auditor Brian Livingston. LRH version. Survived.

NOT WORTH THE MONEYwhich I allowed Joe Feshback, FSM, to convince me to borrow a ton of./SIZE