Q: Salvation from what? What is the "eternity" consequence of leaving the cult?

[lotus]

[video=youtube_share;8_yVzSCbOxs]http://youtu.be/8_yVzSCbOxs[/video]​

 

[lotus]

A very costly lecture from Elwrong!

[video=youtube_share;6caxnqIS9RQ]http://youtu.be/6caxnqIS9RQ[/video]

He is often using a tone like this, non-sense fast speaking
If it's not hypnosis and implanting - I wonder what it is ?????

When one listen to LRH, it never make sens - but when you're in the CO$, it seems anybody else got it but you!
Also you clay demo it to fix it in your mental.
Thus, one believe he could not go up the bridge if he can't get Ron's lectures understanding

The ''route to infinity'' course is a very good example - it's a pile of non-sense crap you can't make sens of it! it's mandatory you finish it and attest to leave the Freewinds and it's usually sold as a one week course.

 

[Gib]

Korzybski's General Semantics with its "earlier similars" etc,

,

Great write-up Veda.

I went and got a copy of Korzybski's Science & Sanity, I believe, at the local library last year. While I didn't read the whole thing, just much of the beginning, and what I noticed is Korzybski talking about "social engineering", which I eguated with Scientology, and realized scientology is Hubbard's attempt at "social engineering" and all per Hubbards rules which are his recorded lectures, HCO PL's, HCOB's, books, Flagg orders, OOD's, orgs and missions, etc.

So in a nutshell, I think scientology is "social engineering". Something I don't want since I've experienced it.

these are the links I just now found:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25457/25457-h/25457-h.html

and this link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z9...nepage&q=social engineering Korzybski&f=false

"The problem has not been approached from the point of view of any private doctrine or creed, but from a mathematical, an engineering, point of view, which is impersonal and passionless. It is obvious that to be able to speak about the great affairs of Man, his spiritual, moral, physical, economic, social or political status, it must first be ascertained what Man is—what is his real nature and what are the basic laws of his nature. If we succeed in finding the laws of human nature, all the rest will be a comparatively easy task—the ethical, social, economic and political status of Man should be in accord with the laws of his nature; then civilization will be a human civilization—a permanent and peaceful one—not before."

This ^^^^^^ is from the first link. Now that sounds like Hubbards twisted words that he stole from.

Anyways, I haven't studied both links and am just posting this since hubbard mentioned Korzybski and Heinlein, the second link.

I forgot to mention time lines are important to establish connections between Kor and Heinlien and hubbard.

 

[Claire Swazey]

It's hard for me to find the proper words to frame this question, so please bare with me but I've read about folks who have left the church and they were worried about their salvation or eternity. What is the consequence?

For a crude example, if you accept Jesus as your savior you spend eternity in heaven and if you don't you go to hell. Pretty simple for me to grasp what the Christian are preaching there.. But what is it in Scn?

Quote from J. Hawkins:


quote from Hubbard:


what does this look like? Help me understand the torture that will be inflicted. I know you can't take classes but I don't understand so what is bound to happen?

hope this makes sense???

Salvation from the alleged dwindling spiral. Scn teaches that we, as spirits, were once at native state. Meaning, we could do anything, we weren't in bodies- we were everything that an OTVIII is alleged to be (and isn't) and so much more than that. And that as we spend more and more lifetimes being human, the more we will devolve, the worse we'll become spiritually as aberrations accrue.

Scn and Dianetics are purportedly, according to Hubbard, the only things that can pull us out of the dwindling spiral.

I think that Hubbard kind of bastardized the karmic wheel theory- and that's largely where this is coming from.

So if every lifetime a person accrued more and more aberrations and "overts" (contrasurvival actions- really, akin to a sin. Things one has done to others or self that are wrong) that are not expunged, the more it builds up, the more decayed as a spiritual being the person would be and that's the dwindling spiral.

Hence the fabled "eternity of blackness and pain" Hubbard wrote about.

He then told people that he had the only thing that could halt and reverse this.

 

[Gib]

By the way, I like the idea of universal history and extraterrestrials, I just don't like being told the contents of my own mind and space by anyone - including L. Ron Hubbard.

That's "implanting."

And because of confidentiality, and also PR tech with its smoke and mirrors, it's covert "implanting."

Covert "Implanting" disguised as "auditing."

Hey, I think I just defined Scientology.

And perhaps explained why there are people, who still "audit," who no longer call themselves "Scientologists."

IMHO,

the idea of implanting is hard to get scientologists to realize

to scientologists,

why,

because they think (they were educated) implanting involves pain & unconsciousness, per the definition of an "engram"

which I thought was true, while being a true believer in scientology and Hubbard

but getting across the point that implanting is not "pain & unconsciousness" but actually just "words" that can be implanting,

is the confusion, IMHO.

 

[lotus]

this ^^^^ IMHO
is a way he ''screwed'' us!

like this

[video=youtube_share;vd1v7K5CsT4]http://youtu.be/vd1v7K5CsT4[/video]

 

[kate8024]

And to anyone who says "it's no crazier than a virgin birth, Moses parting the Red Sea, Christ resurrection".I say "YES it is bc all those stories can be read for free in one book that you can get free of charge"

I personally support all of the Scientology material being freely available and worst case scenario I'm pretty sure the copyrights on LRH's material will be expired by the time its 2000+ years old.

Also, many modern translations of the Bible are, in fact, copyrighted and not free.

 

[Free Being Me]

I personally support all of the Scientology material being freely available and worst case scenario I'm pretty sure the copyrights on LRH's material will be expired by the time its 2000+ years old.

Also, many modern translations of the Bible are, in fact, copyrighted and not free.

Most if not all of Elcon's drivel is available on the net. That's one of the main reasons people cringe away from $cientology, Xenu et al is open to the public. The cult secrets aren't secrets anymore, they are fodder for ridicule and used against the cult to legally shut it down not to mention a warning to the unsuspecting. In the today's Information Age a person would have to be dullard not investigating what the cult is all about before believing Elcon's hoax. Caveat emptor.

 

[MissWog]

I personally support all of the Scientology material being freely available and worst case scenario I'm pretty sure the copyrights on LRH's material will be expired by the time its 2000+ years old.

Also, many modern translations of the Bible are, in fact, copyrighted and not free.

Pages and pages of thoughtful discussion here and this is all you got? Something tells me this is all you are allowed to comment on. Bridge to total freedom but you can't read what's in front of you, that is not freedom

and by the way the South Park episode is CORRECT, not based on truth, not a hint of truth..IT IS THE TRUTH! And the Cult of $cientology, that you so enthusiastically support with your money and time shilling for, stalked and harassed and followed and had Matt & Trey's trash stolen and on and on..and there are documents to prove it!
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/corporate-scientology-targets-south-park/

I dare you Kate to read this link and then discuss it here..I dare you to show people this link on reddit instead of always saying there were no repercussions and that the church had a good response to it and found it fun or amusing. I dare you to open your eyes and find true freedom.

 

[kate8024]

Pages and pages of thoughtful discussion here and this is all you got? Something tells me this is all you are allowed to comment on. Bridge to total freedom but you can't read what's in front of you, that is not freedom

and by the way the South Park episode is CORRECT, not based on truth, not a hint of truth..IT IS THE TRUTH! And the Cult of $cientology, that you so enthusiastically support with your money and time shilling for, stalked and harassed and followed and had Matt & Trey's trash stolen and on and on..and there are documents to prove it!
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/corporate-scientology-targets-south-park/

I dare you Kate to read this link and then discuss it here..I dare you to show people this link on reddit instead of always saying there were no repercussions and that the church had a good response to it and found it fun or amusing. I dare you to open your eyes and find true freedom.

You obviously read all of my posts through glasses colored with lots of assumption rather than reading the actual words I am typing. If you disagree with what I posted on reddit then reply to me on reddit instead of misquoting and misrepresenting what I said here. You are so hung up on my supposed 'financial support' of the church that you fail to absorb that I keep repeating we are talking about under $200 in the last 2 years and under $1500 total. That's _nothing_. I'm pretty sure most of the posters here who were 'in' gave hundreds of times that to them.

 

[MissWog]

You obviously read all of my posts through glasses colored with lots of assumption rather than reading the actual words I am typing. If you disagree with what I posted on reddit then reply to me on reddit instead of misquoting and misrepresenting what I said here. You are so hung up on my supposed 'financial support' of the church that you fail to absorb that I keep repeating we are talking about under $200 in the last 2 years and under $1500 total. That's _nothing_. I'm pretty sure most of the posters here who were 'in' gave hundreds of times that to them.

Still nothing about what this thread is about. I thought you would at least talk about the South Park episode since it is related to the subject here. Oh well, I tried. Yes, Bibles are copyrighted but they are still free!

 

[sallydannce]

You obviously read all of my posts through glasses colored with lots of assumption rather than reading the actual words I am typing. If you disagree with what I posted on reddit then reply to me on reddit instead of misquoting and misrepresenting what I said here. You are so hung up on my supposed 'financial support' of the church that you fail to absorb that I keep repeating we are talking about under $200 in the last 2 years and under $1500 total. That's _nothing_. I'm pretty sure most of the posters here who were 'in' gave hundreds of times that to them.

Kate here's the point. It is not the dollar value of how much gives to a reckless, cruel, fake group - 50 cents, $50K, it's all the same when a principle of decency is thoroughly, open-heartedly, explored.

I spent years in scientology. I would not give them a couple of sheets of toilet paper, much less a roll or a packet of 10. And anyone that has been on staff will know exactly what I mean.

 

[kate8024]

Kate here's the point. It is not the dollar value of how much gives to a reckless, cruel, fake group - 50 cents, $50K, it's all the same when a principle of decency is thoroughly, open-heartedly, explored.

I spent years in scientology. I would not give them a couple of sheets of toilet paper, much less a roll or a packet of 10. And anyone that has been on staff will know exactly what I mean.

Well I also still shop (and have spent far,far more) at Wal-Mart and Gap, I eat at McDonalds, I buy things from Microsoft, and these companies practices have a much larger negative impact on many more people. We have to choose our battles and the small amount of money I've given to the Church of Scientology (which they have more than burnt off any profit from in sales calls, mailings to my trash bin, and other failed efforts on their part) may have contributed to 1-2 people having 5-10 minutes of discomfort in their life. DM spends more on lunch than I've ever given them. The money I have spent at those other companies I've mentioned has contributed to _much_ more discomfort for _many_ more people. If I'm going to fight the dont-give-evil-companies-money battle I'm at least going to focus on companies that I give actually large amounts of money to and do the most evil.

 

[MissWog]

Well I also still shop (and have spent far,far more) at Wal-Mart and Gap, I eat at McDonalds, I buy things from Microsoft, and these companies practices have a much larger negative impact on many more people. We have to choose our battles and the small amount of money I've given to the Church of Scientology (which they have more than burnt off any profit from in sales calls, mailings to my trash bin, and other failed efforts on their part) may have contributed to 1-2 people having 5-10 minutes of discomfort in their life. DM spends more on lunch than I've ever given them. The money I have spent at those other companies I've mentioned has contributed to _much_ more discomfort for _many_ more people. If I'm going to fight the dont-give-evil-companies-money battle I'm at least going to focus on companies that I give actually large amounts of money to and do the most evil.

Well, I hope you go to the unhappy employees of Walmart forum and proudly tell them how much you love getting shit cheap and you don't care that it has maybe caused 5-10 minutes of discomfort in their lives because with those discounts you can better afford $cientology..here is the link http://walmart-employe.livejournal.com/

geez you are all about yourself..selfish selfish selfish..you continually compare yourself to other people to show at least you are not as bad as they are..well honey, that doesn't make you good just bc you are not as bad as somone else..and it doesn't get more EVIL than Scientology. If you read anything here that maybe challenged what you already believe you might learn something. But your posts are so obvious that you avoid "Entheta" and you never debate the real issues of how Scientology lies..and so, you lie for Scientology.

now shoo..if you don't want to discuss the real topic of this thread

 

[kate8024]

But your posts are so obvious that you avoid "Entheta" and you never debate the real issues of how Scientology lies..and so, you lie for Scientology.

You obviously have never read the posts where I mention having read literally every book by ex- and non-Scientologists (at least every one that I'm aware of, it's not impossible that one or two has gotten by me but it would be one of the more obscure ones.) You are making assumptions about me based on your mental model of how you think a Scientologist acts rather than how I actually act. I constantly discuss issues within Scientology but there are plenty enough issues that someone can focus on certain ones while not focusing on others. The issues you care about are not the same ones I do but that doesn't mean I don't have issues with the church - they just are not the same as yours.

 

[sallydannce]

Well I also still shop (and have spent far,far more) at Wal-Mart and Gap, I eat at McDonalds, I buy things from Microsoft, and these companies practices have a much larger negative impact on many more people. We have to choose our battles and the small amount of money I've given to the Church of Scientology (which they have more than burnt off any profit from in sales calls, mailings to my trash bin, and other failed efforts on their part) may have contributed to 1-2 people having 5-10 minutes of discomfort in their life. DM spends more on lunch than I've ever given them. The money I have spent at those other companies I've mentioned has contributed to _much_ more discomfort for _many_ more people. If I'm going to fight the dont-give-evil-companies-money battle I'm at least going to focus on companies that I give actually large amounts of money to and do the most evil.

Nice try. Didn't work for me. Won't work with most members on ESMB either cos this is not the same "argument". There is a way different set of principles in play here to your above post.

Your skewered view of how you may, or may not have, caused others discomfort (suffering) via your spending habits is mildly interesting, and a tad disconcerting, but still does not alter my position that your "50 cents" to scientology is way more about principles than dollar value. WalMart, etc, do not pretend to sell freedom or mess with peoples lives and minds the way scientology does. As far as I know these big businesses do not have disconnection policies, rip families apart or lock people in rooms all night until they break and donate/join staff. You think for one second I am blowing hot air out of my bottom Kate, you're gonna have to think again cos I saw this shit. You think for one second I have not been a eye-witness to what I am writing about? Think again Kate. Your post above is not apples with apples Kate. Nah you're gonna have to try again.

Changing how we see things is not always easy and let's get honest here, it is way more comfortable to cling to the same old, same old, all the time telling ourselves we are adaptable, doing fine. Much easier than facing the reality we may be walking on the wrong path, with a pair of shoes that really are too tight. As we pretend to be walking in comfort, we fling out all sorts of defensive mechanisms at others.

So it your turn again - remember the basic rules; "apples with apples" and take into account the setting you are in i.e. this is not a message board with a bunch of lightweights who suck illogical stuff up a straw. Many of us have been there, done that, and are over it.

 

[Panda Termint]

General Commentary (ie. not addressed to anyone in particular): One thing which sometimes bugs me about ESMB is the marginalisation and pigeon-holing of people who don't toe the party-line here. God loves diversity, I think we should celebrate diversity here rather than attempt to minimalise it.

I propose a solution; ask Kate (or anyone you're curious about) the questions that you really want answers to in a clearly stated, unambiguous (is that redundant?) way. Let's then see what those answers tell us.

 

[JustSheila]

/derail

Back to the OP:

You are threatening somebody with oblivion for eternity by expulsion from Scientology.


what does this look like? Help me understand the torture that will be inflicted. I know you can't take classes but I don't understand so what is bound to happen?

what does this look like? Help me understand the torture that will be inflicted. I know you can't take classes but I don't understand so what is bound to happen?

hope this makes sense???

There was a tape lecture when Hubbard was asked what would happen to someone if they were not saved by scn. Hubbard's answer scared the sh*t out of me at the time.

Paraphrased, Hubbard said that we are all on a dwindling spiral spiritually, and that we would eventually become lifeless, MEST - completely dead - if we were not saved through scn.

Hey, I was a dumb kid at the time - 16 - so I bought the line. :confused2: I'm smarter now.

 

[kate8024]

Changing how we see things is not always easy and let's get honest here, it is way more comfortable to cling to the same old, same old, all the time telling ourselves we are adaptable, doing fine. Much easier than facing the reality we may be walking on the wrong path, with a pair of shoes that really are too tight. As we pretend to be walking in comfort, we fling out all sorts of defensive mechanisms at others.

Well I'm glad you realize this, as this seem to be the #1 issue here. I don't fit into the model of a Scientologist most people have here and it certainly seems to make some people very uncomfortable.

 

[MissWog]

You obviously have never read the posts where I mention having read literally every book by ex- and non-Scientologists (at least every one that I'm aware of, it's not impossible that one or two has gotten by me but it would be one of the more obscure ones.) You are making assumptions about me based on your mental model of how you think a Scientologist acts rather than how I actually act. I constantly discuss issues within Scientology but there are plenty enough issues that someone can focus on certain ones while not focusing on others. The issues you care about are not the same ones I do but that doesn't mean I don't have issues with the church - they just are not the same as yours.

My assumptions are based on you derailing meaningful discussion..just like this! You take a tiny comment within a huge pile and try to make something out of it like a know it all. It's my bad for taking the bait and that is why I should have left you on ignore! I thought you might want to discuss this topic, but no, you wanted to chirp in about bibles being copyrighted, like that invalidates everything else we are disscussing. You are trolling.. Tonight and a few days ago. You are baiting me and it is my problem that I allowed it..but at the same time you are seriously showing your ass.

i don't care how many books you have read.. Join in the conversation here, read people's stories share your thoughts on their experiences or hush up.. If you don't have a comment on the ACTUAL topic of a thread why are you posting in it? Leave the smart ass one liners to yourself. I said bibles are free you retort bibles are copyrighted.. Okay, you win thanks for contributing!