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Why do people think it is necessary to be tolerant of religion?

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
So let me get this straight. You, William Birdwood, with the assistance of the knowledge gleaned from the works of L Ron Hubbard, played a major role in bringing about the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991?

Well, I hate to rain on your parade my friend but in all honesty I find that a trifle far-fetched. Just as far-fetched as I did the last time you wrote pretty much the same thing.
Rain on it all you like Stratsie.

I'm sure it will be a relief to you to know I find it more far-fetched than you are likely to fathom...

But...

For the sake of the historic record I archive writings on ESMB.

Which I correct and update...

There is, for instance i placed on Arnie's "General Stublebine" thread whose content has been eclipsed by recent developments...

Stayed tuned kiddies and Uncle Birdsong will son again quench your thirsting for the weird...
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
You'll notice The L.A. Herald Express lays clam to the largest circulation in the west's largest town. Evidently they got there by straddling a fence. This story is featured on the "Second Front Page" and we can safely deduce the first front page and the first section is dedicated to producing responsible journalism and the second front page boosts circulation with HORSESHIT!!!
I could post supporting evidence for that story, but what would be the point?

Attempting to change your position would be as pointless as trying to convince a pit bull to give me the T-Bone steak he's chewing on.
You'll just try your best to minimize and invalidate any evidence.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Rain on it all you like Stratsie.

I'm sure it will be a relief to you to know I find it more far-fetched than you are likely to fathom...

But...

For the sake of the historic record I archive writings on ESMB.

Which I correct and update...

There is, for instance i placed on Arnie's "General Stublebine" thread whose content has been eclipsed by recent developments...

Stayed tuned kiddies and Uncle Birdsong will son again quench your thirsting for the weird..
Let's face it, this is all just a childish charade isn't it?

I asked you what it was that Hubbard had done that you thought was so good and your reply was words to the effect that he pointed to the possibility of war between the USSR and the USA. Well I never! I'm sure no one else thought that was remotely possible.

You also said:
I happen to know Hubbard's work was of very significant value in producing the dissolution of the USSR
Well William, if you know, as you claim to, I'm sure we're all gagging to hear exactly what the significance of that work was, and I'm sure you're not going to disappoint us are you? We're waiting, so let's hear it.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
There's no evidence Pitsy.

Nothing on any police blotter, no admissions to ER's

Hearsay from hatchet-grinders is NOT evidence

And...

Even if it were...

No one has ever alleged anything ever happened between Ron and Sara that isn't common every day boy/girl hassling.


I had a nasty divorce myself Pitsy and I found out things about my own dark side I'd prefer not to know.

Card carrying members of The Antiscilon Society can entertain each other until Ben and Jerry's open an outlet on thefar side of His Black Satanic Majesty bandying yap about Ron and Sara but it will never carry any weight with any intelligent and knowledgeable observer.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Let's face it, this is all just a childish charade isn't it?

I asked you what it was that Hubbard had done that you thought was so good and your reply was words to the effect that he pointed to the possibility of war between the USSR and the USA. Well I never! I'm sure no one else thought that was remotely possible.

You also said:

Well William, if you know, as you claim to, I'm sure we're all gagging to hear exactly what the significance of that work was, and I'm sure you're not going to disappoint us are you? We're waiting, so let's hear it.
That...

Stratsie...

Is a looooooooooooooooooooong story
 

This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
horseshit
Birdy,

You're barking up the wrong tree (and badly).

There are innumerable instances of Hubbard's cruelty dating all the way back. I'm too lazy to go hunt and peck for you all over the internet - you should do that yourself. But just for fun, click here. (it's the search results for " L Ron Hubbard cruelty".

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

My father told me that after reading the Reader's Digest article. Why didn't I listen?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
No one has ever alleged anything ever happened between Ron and Sara that isn't common every day boy/girl hassling.
YES. THEY. HAVE.

You're either lying or willfully ignorant.

Either way, I'm not about to waste my time to show you when you're either unwilling and/or unable to see the truth.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Birdy,

You're barking up the wrong tree (and badly).

There are innumerable instances of Hubbard's cruelty dating all the way back. I'm too lazy to go hunt and peck for you all over the internet - you should do that yourself. But just for fun, click here. (it's the search results for " L Ron Hubbard cruelty".

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

My father told me that after reading the Reader's Digest article. Why didn't I listen?

Ahh TINOK, you are one of my favorite people...

New Hampshiremen can be as petty as anyone else and we can maintain mutual respect despite strong disagreements so long as we agree There Shalt Not Be A State Sales Tax

Large piles of complaints agin Hubbsie are complete bullshit and rest are machs nicht. He pushed the envelope sometimes but not often. Given the size and scope of his work no sensible critter would begrudge him operating within the Standards of Parris Island Drill Instructors.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good, I've got plenty of time on my hands, a long story is just what I need to fill the void.

You make all these outlandish claims, and yet when push comes to shove you fail to deliver miserably. It's not a good look William.

I've been giving accounts all along Stratsie.

And one of them begs to be amended:

On Arnie's "General Stubblebine" thread I told of being in Seattle on September First 1983 when KAL flight 007 was shot down with air to air missles fired from a Soviet jet...

Whoa! Mustang Sally! You better slow your mustang down!

THAT! Was pretty hairy. That incident by usual diplomatic protocol can be justifiably cited as Cassus Belli; Cause of War. Of course these were the days of MAD; "Mutually Assured Destruction" and only the insane on either side had any hankering for it.

But...

It was an incident which required some response and the Soviets held to an intransigent posture. Day after day I waited for the other shoe to drop. The Seattle Times reported and editorialized daily always discussing the incident in the present tense until...

BANG!

Major explosion in a naval stores port on the Barents Sea north of Murmansk. So destructive the Rooskie northern fleet will not be again fully operational for six months.

And after that not much more about KAL007 in the Times and it is written in the past tense.


Hmmmm...


What a wonderfully timely and well placed "accident".

If the Red Army takes the initiative across the Iron Curtain what is NATO's first strategic priority?

Securing the North Atlantic sea lanes.


Interestingly the Time magazine issue which reported the explosion the following Monday several pages later report the Navy has announced it's Tomahawk cruise missile is now operational


Can anyone do the math the way I did the math?

But later I learned...
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Ahh TINOK, you are one of my favorite people...

New Hampshiremen can be as petty as anyone else and we can maintain mutual respect despite strong disagreements so long as we agree There Shalt Not Be A State Sales Tax

Large piles of complaints agin Hubbsie are complete bullshit and rest are machs nicht. He pushed the envelope sometimes but not often. Given the size and scope of his work no sensible critter would begrudge him operating within the Standards of Parris Island Drill Instructors.


Nor begrudge him having the ethics of an ally cat.
 
There were more assaults on his work than I know of and what I know would fill a book.

Doesn't LRH assure us that we have the rights to comment upon the work of others (from the UN Charter that is mostly reproduced in WTH booklets)? If someone else doesn't like what LRH wrote, they can use logic and reason to counter his arguments. And people have. To me, your use of the word "assault" implies violence, or at least a law-breaking level of attack on his work (or that you think writing so many opposing viewpoints is somehow unfair). Writing opposing words is not an assault. It is an honest debate.

Many have written words opposing the Bible -- people have the right to do so, and they are not "assaulting" it.

Do you believe LRH's work stands as unscathed as the Bible, his ideas as triumphant? Do I detect a note of frustration on your part (your use of the word "assault") that people on this board don't share your high opinion of LRH?

(It is strange how non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia are not even supposed to TOUCH the Qur'an [read "Paramedic to the Prince" by Patrick/Tom Notestine], as if the dead-tree pages are sacred, when it is really the ideas that are sacred.)

There is only written opposition to LRH's work. Nobody has tried to burn all his books and torture Scientologists like the Spanish Inquisition. There are no "assaults" (except by that little runt DM).

The "cruelty" you mention all comes from The Apollo and by all accounts Ron appears to have changed about the time (1968) he produced The Wall of Fire material and set sail to form the elite cadre of the church.

First, according to whose accounts? And second, by setting sail and founding the Sea Org, it looks to me like he just continued the cruelty, but at sea, where he could take his punishments out on a more captive audience. Away from any government, he could intensify and perfect his sadism. Putting people in chain lockers, and overboarding? I know I'm a never-in, but from what I read, his sadism never wavered or ceased.

....Hubbard's work was of very significant value in producing the dissolution of the USSR because I was deeply involved in the diplomacy which produced this result....

I thought the USSR failed because nobody in a Communist state had any incentive to produce good products or services, since they would get paid anyway (remember comedian Yakov Smirnoff quoting the old USSR adage "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work")? And only people who spouted the correct communist dogma would get promoted in industry, regardless of whether they were competent engineers, doctors, managers etc. Also, information wants to be free. People behind the Iron Curtain knew our standard of living was higher in the West ("Dallas", "Dynasty", etc), and their system could only produce that lifestyle for the party elite who lived in "Volvograd" (and the ordinary people DID intend that as snarky).

If you were a diplomat, whom did you work for? (easy question) And is your diplomacy as specious as Hubbard's war record? Whom did you work for? What was the name of the organization you were with? Did it produce any meeting minutes or position papers, or other paper trail that could document where you were in all of this? Dox or you weren't there, pal.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
YES. THEY. HAVE.

You're either lying or willfully ignorant.

Either way, I'm not about to waste my time to show you when you're either unwilling and/or unable to see the truth.
Well, there be some exceptionally bizarre allegations

But..

'Tis you my cherished chum who refuses to accept the truth about Ron and Sara. The two of them had a hot little romance which hit the rocks hard apparently about the time Ron had an affair with what's-her-name who was later cultivated by the shrinks for a well polished dog and pony show. Sara retaliated with an affair with a dianetics instructor whom she would eventually marry. She ended the tryst but Ron apparently tried to keep it going and I wouldn't be surprised if Sara was hottest bed buddy Ron ever enjoyed. The breakup was followed by a big-time custody battle. Ron took Alexis to Havana. The hysterical section of the "Elron Is An Asshole!" crowd often scream "KIDNAP!" but again, you don't have anything on any police blotter. Sara just kept raising aitch ee double hockey sticks and played the scandal sheets like a piano to the serious detriment of the nascent dianetic movement and forced Ron to sue for peace; Sara and her beau got Alexis, and Ron received sweet silence...

Ho hum...

"Sound and fury signifying nothing" sayeth The Bard.

And eventually Sara will receive her proper place in the history of dianetics because she was both pc and auditor to Ron as he researched it.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you please Phenomanon, Ron had the morals of an alleycat.

His ethics?

He certainly made himself vulnerable to a bitterly cynical assessment but I don't subscribe to it.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Alex!

Are you any relation to Buster?


I like and respect your position on "assault". I am a fierce but conservative critic of CoS and Hubbard. I have no problem with many things such as overboarding. The chain locker for children I do not condone but it is now ancient history. Harsh and stringent treatment of serious seekers by spiritual directors has a long history, e.g. Marpa's treatment of Milarepa.

Gibney's "documentary" is clearly an assault. He stops barely short of a direct demand to destroy Scientology with taxation.

I was in on the Anonymous protests back in Aught Seven and the conduct was impeccable; no doors or paths were blocked no auditing sessions, lectures or training was disrupted.

But...

Ted Patrick with his "deprogramming" can be viewed as assault.

And, yes, students of Hubbard have been incarcerated w/o warrant and subjected to torment of sufficient degree to be considered torture.

I know

I am one of them.

To be continued...
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Doesn't LRH assure us that we have the rights to comment upon the work of others (from the UN Charter that is mostly reproduced in WTH booklets)? If someone else doesn't like what LRH wrote, they can use logic and reason to counter his arguments. And people have. To me, your use of the word "assault" implies violence, or at least a law-breaking level of attack on his work (or that you think writing so many opposing viewpoints is somehow unfair). Writing opposing words is not an assault. It is an honest debate.

Many have written words opposing the Bible -- people have the right to do so, and they are not "assaulting" it.

Do you believe LRH's work stands as unscathed as the Bible, his ideas as triumphant? Do I detect a note of frustration on your part (your use of the word "assault") that people on this board don't share your high opinion of LRH?

(It is strange how non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia are not even supposed to TOUCH the Qur'an [read "Paramedic to the Prince" by Patrick/Tom Notestine], as if the dead-tree pages are sacred, when it is really the ideas that are sacred.)

There is only written opposition to LRH's work. Nobody has tried to burn all his books and torture Scientologists like the Spanish Inquisition. There are no "assaults" (except by that little runt DM).



First, according to whose accounts? And second, by setting sail and founding the Sea Org, it looks to me like he just continued the cruelty, but at sea, where he could take his punishments out on a more captive audience. Away from any government, he could intensify and perfect his sadism. Putting people in chain lockers, and overboarding? I know I'm a never-in, but from what I read, his sadism never wavered or ceased.



I thought the USSR failed because nobody in a Communist state had any incentive to produce good products or services, since they would get paid anyway (remember comedian Yakov Smirnoff quoting the old USSR adage "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work")? And only people who spouted the correct communist dogma would get promoted in industry, regardless of whether they were competent engineers, doctors, managers etc. Also, information wants to be free. People behind the Iron Curtain knew our standard of living was higher in the West ("Dallas", "Dynasty", etc), and their system could only produce that lifestyle for the party elite who lived in "Volvograd" (and the ordinary people DID intend that as snarky).

If you were a diplomat, whom did you work for? (easy question) And is your diplomacy as specious as Hubbard's war record? Whom did you work for? What was the name of the organization you were with? Did it produce any meeting minutes or position papers, or other paper trail that could document where you were in all of this? Dox or you weren't there, pal.
The USSR did fail largely by reason of the failure of "Marxist economics" but material conditions for Russians were slowly improving and they could boast many successes; universal health care and literacy. Czarist Russia only 5% of the population could read and write, Soviet Union achieved 95% literacy. But Soviet agriculture was a disaster. They had to allow the peasantry to till about 5% of the arable land privately. This produced (according to our not perfectly reliable propaganda) 30% of the Soviet Union's food. Internal factors were the critical factors...

but...

We did "assist" the process.

As I have said several times I went through a cataclysmic divorce in Philadelphia in the summer of 1980 and decamped to Boston to again drive the marvelous old Checker Marathon taxis out of the Baronholz's Kilmarnock street garage. One evening in October I picked up a typical Atlantic Union "old boy" at the corner of Hereford and Newbury streets for a round trip job up to Beacon Hill and back. We had a wonderful lively conversation during which he introduced himself as "Courtney Spindler" and said he was employed by our [valiant and patriotic] Central Intelligence Agency. I do have a background in Military Intelligence among other things. He vested me verbally with a diplomatic portfolio under what are obviously conditions of "plausible deniability".

You are at liberty and welcome to give or deny credence to anything I say but as to the Soviet Union...



Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!
Stamp your feet! Get out of bed!
Ding! Dong! The wicked witch is dead!

Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!
Which old witch?
The wicked witch!
Ding! Dong! The wicked witch is dead!

She's gone where the goblins go!
Heigh Ho!
Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho!

O Heigh Ho The Derrio!
Sing it high! Sing it low!
Ding! Dong! The wicked witch is dead!
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
If you please Phenomanon, Ron had the morals of an [bcolor=#ffff00]alleycat[/bcolor].

His ethics?

He certainly made himself vulnerable to a bitterly cynical assessment but I don't subscribe to it.
No CP, it's two words, alley cat. We''ll get there eventually. :biggrin:
 
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