The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

[lkwdblds]

I'm not saying "there will never be proof" in the same manner as though who said so based on the difficulty of developing tools to find out.

I'm saying there will never be proof because we are talking about something outside of the material world.

And anomalies in science are different than anomalies in math.

Math is either correct or it isn't. But scientific theories are the conclusions based upon aggregates of information. So there can be and often are anomalies to theories.

I am not saying that there are not theiries about the spiritual world. But that realm is for religion and philosophy, not science.

Science, by its very nature, function, and existence does not and cannot concern itself with the spiritual side.

The minute it does it is not longer science.

As for physical emanations---they are physical traces but if they emenate from what you and I conclude is the spirit that won't be the conclusion of science.

As far as something not being logical--there are things that logic does not explain. But it is understood by all that not enough is known or understood to explain the appent illogical phenomenon.

This is where scientist search, using logic, in order to find a logical explanation.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Your answers are fine, I'm not looking for a debate or anything, just kicking some thoughts around. I believe that in the 19th century and probably earlier, there was some hope or vision that science and religion would ultimately meet and that meeting would occur when more knowledge was uncovered about the nature and origins of life. Are you familiar with this or do you have anything to say about it?

Doesn't a decision have to be made that science and religion are two completely isolated and separate fields. That is not necessarily the natural order of things although that seems to be how things are in today's world.

If science insists that it is completely separate, then all that you have written is correct. Even there, much of today's science seems to be intruding into religion and doing so mainly to invalidate the underpinnings of religion. Religion will then fire back. The best example of this is the dispute over whether "intelligent design" is present in this universe and whether it had anything to do with it's origin.

Pitting "intelligent design" versus "evolution" is ridiculous to me. Obviously, those two terms are not mutually exclusive. If there is intelligent design, then the design could include evolution within it. It's not necessarily an either / or problem.

Good points about the differences between science and math. I just threw the math in to illustrate how things could be different than what science is stating.
Lakey

[FoTi]

Foreign troops training in Tampa......this is where the GOP convention will be held.

I'm just wondering whats the need for international forces? Does anybody know?

!

This is what was written underneith the video on Youtube......

"Published on Jun 14, 2012 by johnperna2


Oh, they are so proud to show what they can do. It just happens that all of these foreign troops are training in Tampa, where the GOP Convention will be held. Maybe they have decided that local police do not do a good enough job of intimidating those Ron Paul supporters. Some of those police might even refuse to obey illegal orders to violate people's rights? That oath to "support and defend the constitution" might even surface? Maybe with enough foreign troops they could just take over the convention? Notice the the "rescued" man is brought away IN HANDCUFFS. This is the army of the global tyranny. Watch the rest of the videos on this channel to make this a clear."

[FoTi]

Survival uses for a busted cell phone..... links to other survival techniques are included in this article.

http://artofmanliness.com/2012/06/14...al-cell-phone/

[Ted]

They won't find anything non-material doing material research.

Any scientific research at best can only give more questions about what is physically behind certain phenomenon.

Some may interpret the results as their being a soul, but no one is going to find any physical proof, which is what scienctific research does.

But if you mean there is no soul I am wondering how you know that.

Because even if one does every kind of scientific experiement possible or conceivable, it couldn't discover a soul because a soul is by definition non-material.

So how can one know by their senses that which cannot be sensed by their senses?

The Anabaptist Jacques

Referring back to the Lakey post, the above post is my point exactly.

[Hatshepsut]

Foreign troops training in Tampa......this is where the GOP convention will be held.

I'm just wondering whats the need for international forces? Does anybody know?

snipped

This is what was written underneith the video on Youtube......

"Published on Jun 14, 2012 by johnperna2


Oh, they are so proud to show what they can do. It just happens that all of these foreign troops are training in Tampa, where the GOP Convention will be held. Maybe they have decided that local police do not do a good enough job of intimidating those Ron Paul supporters. Some of those police might even refuse to obey illegal orders to violate people's rights? That oath to "support and defend the constitution" might even surface? Maybe with enough foreign troops they could just take over the convention? Notice the the "rescued" man is brought away IN HANDCUFFS. This is the army of the global tyranny. Watch the rest of the videos on this channel to make this a clear."

I didn't hear a word about that down in Tampa . Wasn't on the news way up here. NATO forces reconnoiters for practice with other countries in an event where we get to know and trust our partners!

It might not be a bad idea to have 'special forces' who are not of just 'one' country do the spanking if a nation is making nuclear threats. What IS bad is that it could become a unanimous decision at some point that 'we' are the ones overstepping our bounds and need to be spanked. It would not be nice to see NATO forces on our soil restricting us. Also lately we have been warned not to interfere during atrocities for 'humanitarian' reasons. So what will happen when Israel is attacked and our hands are tied. I would hate to see this conglomerate of special forces used as a machine under the whim of some behind the scenes world dictator.

Please bring war toys to the party where we will create warm and fuzzy feelings with our comrades. It's definitely an election year! I'm actually sorry I missed the show.

[Ted]

About a decade ago, I took our garage down to studs, added another ten feet of concrete, dug in, and connected to the sewer, put in a full electrical service, plumbing, ethernet, and rebuilt the garage into a really spiffy little cottage.

After the kids stopped using it, we started renting it out. We've had Stanford Medical School doctors, a NASA rocket scientist, and others.

The other day, I arrived home to see a dozen cop cars and crime scene tape across our property.

Our tenant, in the cottage, had checked out without taking his body.

He had a 10 year old daughter and a 17 year old son and an ex wife.

They came to see him around 6 that night. His bloody naked body blocked the front door.

Having, myself, been the person cleaning up the mess for the past couple of days, it looks like he got into the jacuzzi, slashed himself including his intestines and arteries, and then, had a change of heart. He got out of the tub, struggled across the bathroom, the living room, and to the foyer, where he collapsed at the front door, effectively blocking it.

There was broken glass overlaying blood and shit. The glass came from the sheriff's officers breaking the double paned glass sliding doors at the back of the cottage. It flew everywhere. Bloody hand prints that slid over door jambs, blood squirted every which way, pools of blood on the carpet, tile, and linoleum. A couple of inches of blood and shit in the jacuzzi. The smell, though now gone, lingers in my mind's nose.

His ex says he was a nice man. He seemed nice enough.

My opinion, colored by this action of his, is he was a _____.

My wife's word, was the same as my own, when I told her. It is the MF word.

He was 56, a CEO of his own company. He had recently been to the Grammy Awards. Professionally, he was no slouch.

Somewhere in there, he was lacking something. He wasn't physically sick. He could have been a tennis pro. He drove a new car, had nice things, wasn't a slob.

Still......

Will you be giving an A-J and pre-rental security check before you rent again?

[Mick Wenlock]

Foreign troops training in Tampa......this is where the GOP convention will be held.

I'm just wondering whats the need for international forces? Does anybody know?


This is what was written underneith the video on Youtube......

"Published on Jun 14, 2012 by johnperna2


Oh, they are so proud to show what they can do. It just happens that all of these foreign troops are training in Tampa, where the GOP Convention will be held. Maybe they have decided that local police do not do a good enough job of intimidating those Ron Paul supporters. Some of those police might even refuse to obey illegal orders to violate people's rights? That oath to "support and defend the constitution" might even surface? Maybe with enough foreign troops they could just take over the convention? Notice the the "rescued" man is brought away IN HANDCUFFS. This is the army of the global tyranny. Watch the rest of the videos on this channel to make this a clear."

Wow what tripe.

It is nice to see people trying to fan the flames of fear - it was so "secret" the public were filming it and its freely available from NATO.

I love the supremely naive idea that in a real hostage situation that you would expect a rescue team to blindly trust anyone they found - even if its the person you rescued.

As for 'why the need for foreign troops?" seriously? Did you not understand the concept of "training"? In the increasing likelihood that special forces from more than one military are going to be working in tandem do you not think it woul dbe smart to have peole who are traiing to go into dangerous situations heavily armed actually at least have a clue at what their allies are going to be doing?

This is just one more tinfoiler busily trying to spread hyperventilation.

[Lone Star]

Wow what tripe.

It is nice to see people trying to fan the flames of fear - it was so "secret" the public were filming it and its freely available from NATO.

I love the supremely naive idea that in a real hostage situation that you would expect a rescue team to blindly trust anyone they found - even if its the person you rescued.

As for 'why the need for foreign troops?" seriously? Did you not understand the concept of "training"? In the increasing likelihood that special forces from more than one military are going to be working in tandem do you not think it woul dbe smart to have peole who are traiing to go into dangerous situations heavily armed actually at least have a clue at what their allies are going to be doing?

This is just one more tinfoiler busily trying to spread hyperventilation.

Yes tripe perhaps. I was thinking it might be more along the lines of twaddle. Mmmmm?

[Terril park]

For you folks interested in the goings on in the world of international politics, finance and all, you might be interested in the following.

The Chinese have just sealed a deal to takeover the London Metal Exchange . . . the Chinese have done this via their Hong Kong Exchanges & Clearing Company.

For those who may not be aware of the nuances involved, the LME is not just a dinky little assemblage of traders buying and selling against each other in a little side street in London

The LME effectively controls the supply and delivery of metals to the world market . . . it operates a number of vast warehouses around the world in key strategic locations in which stocks of various metals are kept for delivery to end users on demand.

This is a vast undertaking that has been developed over a very long time.

So now the Chinese effectively control the pipeline and supply of your metals: copper, aluminium, zinc, etc., etc.

Looks like next lifetime I'll need to learn Mandarin . . . or become one

Rog

There is a growing trend for people learning Mandarin at universities.

Next lifetime Mandarin may become more used than English

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Your answers are fine, I'm not looking for a debate or anything, just kicking some thoughts around. I believe that in the 19th century and probably earlier, there was some hope or vision that science and religion would ultimately meet and that meeting would occur when more knowledge was uncovered about the nature and origins of life. Are you familiar with this or do you have anything to say about it?

Doesn't a decision have to be made that science and religion are two completely isolated and separate fields. That is not necessarily the natural order of things although that seems to be how things are in today's world.

If science insists that it is completely separate, then all that you have written is correct. Even there, much of today's science seems to be intruding into religion and doing so mainly to invalidate the underpinnings of religion. Religion will then fire back. The best example of this is the dispute over whether "intelligent design" is present in this universe and whether it had anything to do with it's origin.

Pitting "intelligent design" versus "evolution" is ridiculous to me. Obviously, those two terms are not mutually exclusive. If there is intelligent design, then the design could include evolution within it. It's not necessarily an either / or problem.

Good points about the differences between science and math. I just threw the math in to illustrate how things could be different than what science is stating.
Lakey

I agree with you that there will be enough information, in fact I think there has been enough information for centuries to extrapolate the spirit.

But in the 19th century science took another direction.

Prior to that, religion and science were considered to be about the same thing.

Science was called natural philosophy and considered another arm of the parallel path to knowledge and truth.

But in the early-middle part of the 19th century the word "science" came into being. The separation came about for two reasons:

Philosophically, the idea was to seperate and use empirical proof and scientific method as the standard of evidence--that is induction rather than deduction.

And the other reason was the rise of anti-Catholicism in Great Britain and especially the United States.

This is when several scientific journals and publications began publishing false stories and tales of showing Catholicism as anti-science.

For example, the legend about Galileo's trial that he was standing up for science and reason against the anti-science of the pope, when in fact, the pope was being more scientific than Galileo. It was Galileo who was being authoritarian.

Unfortunately, this legend still prevails and is taught today.

Another reason that science took the direction of induction rather than deduction was an effort to settle the age-old problem of knowledge.

While science, I think, was correct in seperating the two functionally, the effort was done over the definitions of knowledge, truth, and reality.

Religiously, knowledge prior to the Enlightenment was thought to come from sacred text. The job of natural philosophers (scientist) was to explain phenomenon within the context of scacred text.

Well, it is easy to see what is wrong with that.

But the problem for science was the dilemma that since Plato, knowledge was considered to be universal, necessary, and certain.

By necessary here is the philosophical definition of necessary which means that it must be so deductively.

For example, if Bill is taller than Joe, and Joe is taller than Mary, then it is necessarily true--it must be--that Bill is taller than Mary.

By universal means that it must be true everywhere; if it is true in Athens then it is true in Egypt.

What met this criteria for Plato was geometry.

Rectangular buildings may be different in Athens than those in Egypt, but the concept of a rectangle was the same. Therefore it is universal.

The problem that has always haunted science is that it uses empirical data.

Empirical data is always particular instead of universal, and empirical data is always probable instead of necesary, and empirical data is always contingent on the circumstances and never universal.

It comes down to the difference between induction and deduction.

Then there is the aspect of Logos. By logos is meant the underlying principle behind things.

In most religions the Logos is expressed in their scriptures.

Science needed a logos to be legitimate so what passes for logos in science is the scientific method.

This Idea goes back to Sir Francis Bacon's "Novo Organum" which means a new method.

Novo means "new" and Organum refers to Aristotle's work on logic and syllogisms. Organum means system or method.

This is why Bacon is often called the Father of modern science.

So a consistent method was to serve as a logos itself. But it relied on induction.

There is nothing wrong with science and induction, but it can never prove anything metaphysical simply because it relies on empirical evidence.

There is nothing wrong with the wisdom of religious text.

But one has to keep in mind that it is all about interpretation of age-old truths and not about the material world.

Science is interpretation of reality. Religion is interpretation of the logos.

Science uses induction and is particular, probable, and contingent in order to interpret phenomenon.

Religion uses exegesis of canonical texts to understand the logos.

Those who use religion to interpret reality are making the same mistake as those who make science and the scientific method their logos.

Science will never prove anything meta-physical.

Religion will never explain physical phenomenon.

The Anabaptist Jacque