The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

[Leon]

I like Smilla's comments on Carl Jung. Seems correct to me.

The situation with John Mac, as I see it, is more along the lines of, "What did he lose?"

Particularly, what did he lose that was precious to him? He spoke a great deal about love.

Fatty, Fatty 2x4 knocked him down and shut the door.

Just imagine the flows of love and admiration John Mac experienced when he was on top of his game. Then realize that he would not have achieved this without Hubbard, Scientology, his auditors, his preclears, every event promoter, staff member, public in attendance, and so on serving as a setup. It wasn't as if John Mac appeared one day nearly walking on water. No. There was a huge setup, particularly in terms of life forces converging in his direction. He was good enough, honorable enough to make use of these forces in promoting Scientology.

Then Hubbard took him down, and out. Hubbard was despicable enough to do this. The loss must have been tremendous on John Mac. I can only imagine. I surmise that the loss to Hubbard and Scientology was tremendous there as well. However, such was the nature of Hubbard's psychosis and sociopathy. Hubbard was an "only one." If anyone approached fame, fortune, or "OT" through Scientology, Fatty went on the attack. After 60+ years, there are no OTs. Why? No one goes OT by themselves, and OT's are not permitted.

ARCXen people attack. So yeah, drink to kill the loss. Drink to stop self from a full-on attack using the same volume of life-force that was used earlier to promote Hubbard and Scientology. I can see where this might have been the case. We will never know. We can only speculate.

I dunno. I suspect the answer lies more in the Crash and Burn phenomenon that Roger writes about at times. John got an incredible high with being the first Clear and going on a world tour and being able to express to all his feelings of love and all that that embraced.

Then he got hooted out of court for it all. Ridiculed, mocked, made fun of, etc etc etc. So he crashed and burned.

I feel for him.

[afaceinthecrowd]

Found this about the M/V Bolivar:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/011230.htm

Yep, Carmelo...Cakemaker is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

Lemmee tell you folks...your lookin' at one helluva fast, tight and, in its day, all business machine.

During WWII, there was a 3" canon forward, 3 20 mm machine guns midships and abaft 2 Twin 50 cal anti-aircraft machine guns, 2 rocket launchers and depth charge racks starboard and port and probably other stuff I don't know about.

Most ships of that era had moderate to small, hand-grip spoke helms that were geared to create quasi "power steering". The Bolivar's helm was a huge brass wheel without grip spokes...like the steering wheel of a car...and geared like a rack and pinion sports car...you had to wear gloves, you had to be strong, you had to muscle her but you could "feel" where you were at, she told you what was going on...she was one a helluva ship!

I'm sure she's long gone to scrap, which is A OK with me. The SO, IMO was rather an ignoble ending for such a fine vessel, such a fine work of engineering and labor.

To you, fair Bolivar......I will always remember that day with the throb of your engines in my feet and beckoning in my hands, "Let me run...Just one more time, let-me-run...I was born to run!"

Face

[Terril park]

Can we talk about Johnny Mac's black side?



For all his integrity, love, and selflessness, he ended up on skid row, a mean nasty drunk.

His choices of boy toys were not pretty.

His last interaction with Jack Horner, was to treat Jack like dirt (for no discernible reason).

Did he lose himself in the bottle?

Did he find a way to wall out something that he found, that he was unable to live with, by hitting the bottle?

IMO far more likely is the wrong indication/outlist of being declared by LRH. And all the destruction of personal goals specially re tech.

[Terril park]

Yep, Carmelo...Cakemaker is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

Lemmee tell you folks...your lookin' at one helluva fast, tight and, in its day, all business machine.

During WWII, there was a 3" canon forward, 3 20 mm machine guns midships and abaft 2 Twin 50 cal anti-aircraft machine guns, 2 rocket launchers and depth charge racks starboard and port and probably other stuff I don't know about.

Most ships of that era had moderate to small, hand-grip spoke helms that were geared to create quasi "power steering". The Bolivar's helm was a huge brass wheel without grip spokes...like the steering wheel of a car...and geared like a rack and pinion sports car...you had to wear gloves, you had to be strong, you had to muscle her but you could "feel" where you were at, she told you what was going on...she was one a helluva ship!

I'm sure she's long gone to scrap, which is A OK with me. The SO, IMO was rather an ignoble ending for such a fine vessel, such a fine work of engineering and labor.

To you, fair Bolivar......I will always remember that day with the throb of your engines in my feet and beckoning in my hands, "Let me run...Just one more time, let-me-run...I was born to run!"

Face

I have a common guy feel for excellent machinery. I apreciate this love letter

[RogerB]

Can we talk about Johnny Mac's black side?



For all his integrity, love, and selflessness, he ended up on skid row, a mean nasty drunk.

His choices of boy toys were not pretty.

His last interaction with Jack Horner, was to treat Jack like dirt (for no discernible reason).

Did he lose himself in the bottle?

Did he find a way to wall out something that he found, that he was unable to live with, by hitting the bottle?

Is this above as personally witnessed of John Mac, or hearsay and rumour . . .

I'll vouch for the fact that he was very bitter and upset regarding his treatment and/or association with Hubbard. And I can vouch for his inclination for boys versus girls . . . he tried it on with me, to be disappointed and "wounded" by my rejection . . . .

But all the rest above is rather nasty . . . particularly the statement: "a mean nasty drunk."

I can vouch for his bitterness after he came out of $cn: but I never saw an ounce of meanness or nastiness in him, or from him.

He in actuality was a very loving man but very, very disappointed.

He was gay, and he did drink more than is wise . . . but I will tell you something else, there was a plant by the GO with him as a "friend" whose role it was to get him drinking excessively on the basis that it was known John had a stomach ulcer and the think (cum plot) was to bring about John's death as a result of excess Scotch. This told to me by the individual who was the "operative."

Gays can have a response to others that either offend or piss them off (for whatever reason) that can be seen by others as that they are "treated like dirt" . . . so I would get the facts of what the interchange was all about on the Jack Horner thing was about before I added it onto the heap of vitriol against John.

My observations of John was that he was honest; and yes he ended up bitter and very disappointed as a result of his interaction with Hubbard . . . . but hey: isn't that what this forum is all about? We are pissed that Hubbard betrayed and misled and lied to us.

John may well have suffered that betrayal to an extend far greater than any other (though I'd put David Mayo up there in that league also).

So unless you've got something you can contribute on the subject of John Mac that can benefit us, it is better to leave the rumour and the vitriol and nastiness off of the line.

Rog

[Mark A. Baker]

... Most ships of that era had moderate to small, hand-grip spoke helms that were geared to create quasi "power steering". The Bolivar's helm was a huge brass wheel without grip spokes...like the steering wheel of a car...and geared like a rack and pinion sports car...you had to wear gloves, you had to be strong, you had to muscle her but you could "feel" where you were at, she told you what was going on...she was one a helluva ship!
...

The ships from that era on which I've served had hydraulic steering systems. Most of what you felt was resistance reflected back from the rudder due to the power being applied through the hydraulics & linkage. It gave a sense of rudder 'bite' but I could tell more about the motion of the vessel through my feet as a result of the vibrations of the hull, heel, pitch, yaw, etc.. I'm not a surfer but I likened it to blue water surfing.




Mark A. Baker

[afaceinthecrowd]

The ships from that era on which I've served had hydraulic steering systems. Most of what you felt was resistance reflected back from the rudder due to the power being applied through the hydraulics & linkage. It gave a sense of rudder 'bite' but I could tell more about the motion of the vessel through my feet as a result of the vibrations of the hull, heel, pitch, yaw, etc.. I'm not a surfer but I likened it to blue water surfing.




Mark A. Baker

Thanks, Mark. By "geared" I meant about how the helm "felt" to the helmsman. I've helmed a few ships from that era, been in the wheelhouse of a number of others and had some chats with helmsman from back then.

Yes, you are correct, it was hydraulics and not "gearing". I shoulda said "tuned" or "designed" or "set-up". My point was that the Bolivar was different than most ships from that era...it was like a sports car. The "feel" in the helm, the "responsiveness" to the helm" and the overall stability was like a much smaller craft than it was.

The ship just felt like it had been designed by the designers, detailed by the engineers...and the shipbuilders had pulled it off...to be a ship that told everyone on the bridge and the guy holding that wheel exactly what they needed to know...if they were paying attention.

Face

[Mark A. Baker]

... The ship just felt like it had been designed by the designers, detailed by the engineers...and the shipbuilders had pulled it off...to be a ship that told everyone on the bridge and the guy holding that wheel exactly what they needed to know...if they were paying attention.

Face

No doubt it was. The size & power specs needed to fulfill its intended mission I should think would impose a very 'responsive' quality to the vessel. I heard once from an old time navy guy who had served on the monster Iowa class battle ships that steering them was like driving a cadillac with power steering. You didn't feel a thing.


Mark A. Baker

[Auditor's Toad]

Thanks, Mark. By "geared" I meant about how the helm "felt" to the helmsman. I've helmed a few ships from that era, been in the wheelhouse of a number of others and had some chats with helmsman from back then.

Yes, you are correct, it was hydraulics and not "gearing". I shoulda said "tuned" or "designed" or "set-up". My point was that the Bolivar was different than most ships from that era...it was like a sports car. The "feel" in the helm, the "responsiveness" to the helm" and the overall stability was like a much smaller craft than it was.

The ship just felt like it had been designed by the designers, detailed by the engineers...and the shipbuilders had pulled it off...to be a ship that told everyone on the bridge and the guy holding that wheel exactly what they needed to know...if they were paying attention.

Face

For me ? PT Boat was the thriller for being at the helm.
The designer of the PT Boat also made a line of pleasure boats that were quick but no where near the power of the PT boat.

[afaceinthecrowd]

For me ? PT Boat was the thriller for being at the helm.
The designer of the PT Boat also made a line of pleasure boats that were quick but no where near the power of the PT boat.

Luv it, Toady!

Sub Chaser...PT Boat...Kinda like drivin' a Shelby GT 350 or an Austin-Healy 3000 MK II...either way, you better sinch up your jock 'cause youze in for one helluva ride.

Face