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Thread: Need e-meter and qualified scientology auditor for Saturday June 20

  1. #41
    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonOrange View Post
    Then the parade of naked bodies, farm animals, space aliens could talke pace so we could determine if it's all about grasping the cans rather than body response to stimuli.
    No-one who is familiar with metered auditing is disputing that deliberately wiggling your fingers while holding cans makes the needle move.

    I would have no objection in theory to the double hook-up, cans to one meter and needles in veins to the other. I would be interested to see if the needles version shows the same reads, or any reads, or even — dare I say it — magnified reads. I am assuming for this that you (AO) could be prevailed on to hold your fingers still, or at least as still as most people who hold the cans manage to.

    Paul
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  2. #42
    Gold Meritorious Patron AnonOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    No-one who is familiar with metered auditing is disputing that deliberately wiggling your fingers while holding cans makes the needle move.
    My claim is much of the needle movement is due to unconscious, non-deliberate effect of hand/finger changing positions lightly or slight grip pressure changes. Look up the idomotor effect, which are slight unconscious body movements.

    Using the two meter test, you would be able to see that, because from what I read in the Anderson report, the body's conduction is pretty much even, regarless of auditing questions.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

  3. #43
    Gold Meritorious Patron Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    No-one who is familiar with metered auditing is disputing that deliberately wiggling your fingers while holding cans makes the needle move.

    I would have no objection in theory to the double hook-up, cans to one meter and needles in veins to the other. I would be interested to see if the needles version shows the same reads, or any reads, or even dare I say it magnified reads. I am assuming for this that you (AO) could be prevailed on to hold your fingers still, or at least as still as most people who hold the cans manage to.

    Paul
    It is my experience that given a "normal" hand holding of the cans, that is to say, a relaxed grip with no unnecessary space between hands, fingers, and cans, and a can squeeze producing 1/3 dial drop of the needle, a brutal can squeeze will move the TA down 1/2 to 1 full division, no more. YMMV, but not by much.

    In auditing, a TA BD of 1/2 to 1 division is not uncommon.

    A TA BD of 2 full divs is less common but it happens.

    And, on occasion a TA BD if 3+ divs happens.

    What I am getting at is this: No amount of can pressure will cause that level of BD given a normal, relaxed grip to begin with.

    A for the sweat-unsweat complaint, how about dunking the hands in two buckets of water? You will need someone to operate the meter. And it will do no good to work with someone who cannot make the needle move by thought/emotion alone. Yeah, that should work to debunk that issue.

  4. #44
    Patron with Honors NeXTep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonOrange View Post

    If time permits, I'll connect the e-meter directly to my blood veins with syringes on each arm, while people pinch me or try to wake up my body thethans!
    I would like to see that one.

    Bet you wouldn't stay connected to it more than a microsecond.

    Blood is a better conductor than just skin, so go figure.

  5. #45
    Gold Meritorious Patron AnonOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted View Post
    It is my experience that given a "normal" hand holding of the cans, that is to say, a relaxed grip with no unnecessary space between hands, fingers, and cans, and a can squeeze producing 1/3 dial drop of the needle, a brutal can squeeze will move the TA down 1/2 to 1 full division, no more. YMMV, but not by much.
    Last weekend, when I tried an e-meter, I was able to make the needle move like a wiper blade just by squeezing normally on/off. I asked the scientologist to reduce the sensitivity and I could still control it totally.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

  6. #46
    Gold Meritorious Patron AnonOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeXTep View Post
    I would like to see that one.

    Bet you wouldn't stay connected to it more than a microsecond.

    Blood is a better conductor than just skin, so go figure.
    The current produced by such a device is extremely low. I don't think I'll feel it at all.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

  7. #47
    Patron with Honors Been Done Had's Avatar
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    Hey, AO...

    You would have had better luck actually getting someone to show up by simply mentioning CFI and their intent. You made it the AO show with your talk of needles. I understand your skepticism and accept it. But your derision is unwarranted. The invitation FEELS like this; "Show up and I'll prove you are crazy."

    CFI plus a trained auditor doing E-meter drills is interesting.

    The AO grudge match with needles sounds scary.

    It is clear you really have your mind made up on GSR phenomenon without testing it. As an engineer you now better.

    And yes in the E-meter books resistance is mentioned, the mechanism described is mental image pictures affect body resistance as measure by a Wheatstone Bridge circuit. That's in the books. It is not explicitly labeled GSR although it may be in some lectures. But yes, the meter measures resistance and that is what auditors are taught.

    We've covered the E-meter territory before. I'd like to sum up your claims...

    1. E-meter reads are either sweat or movement based.

    2. There is no GSR response to mental activity.

    3. Auditing is a fraud.

    Regarding point 1:

    Two seconds on a meter will teach you that is not the case. The needle is dynamic. The reads happen quickly, yes people sweat and it will cause a steady decrease in resistance over time. But all the standard reads of auditing occur independant of this mechanism. Yes, movement affects the needle. And quite a bit. But unless the PC is intentionally moving this is not a problem. You can simulate some reads by hand and body movement. But an auditor is trained to recognize this. Involuntary micro-movements of the hand in no way account for ALL needle phenomenon and have almost NO EFFECT on needle movement.

    Point 2: See the following link. Carl Jung studied the mind/GSR link a long time ago and established there IS a connection. There are MANY, MANY research papers showing this. This is not in doubt in the mental health community. It is established fact.

    http://sidis.net/galvanicjung3.htm

    Point 3: This is subjective. I have had gains from auditing. Mostly along the lines of self awareness. I have also seen others cratered by bad auditing. I suggest you give it a serious go and decide for yourself. You would have to be open and willing and give it a chance. If you do it with the outcome decided, well then the outcome will be decided.

    I really hope someone does step forward and take up the CFI offer, separate out AO's agenda. The results wil be very interesting.

    Oh, and AO...

    Maybe you could post CFIs information, some people here may be more comfortable dealing with them directly and cutting out the middleman.
    Being human is an honor not a crime.

  8. #48
    Gold Meritorious Patron alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonOrange View Post
    My claim is much of the needle movement is due to unconscious, non-deliberate effect of hand/finger changing positions lightly or slight grip pressure changes. Look up the idomotor effect, which are slight unconscious body movements.

    Using the two meter test, you would be able to see that, because from what I read in the Anderson report, the body's conduction is pretty much even, regarless of auditing questions.
    Thats what the sensitivity setting is for...it is a fairly small change in resistence.
    thoughts are real, its the things you think that are the illusion

  9. #49
    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    Thats what the sensitivity setting is for...it is a fairly small change in resistence.
    In some cases, yes, but remember that TA 2.0 = 5000 ohms and TA 3.0 = 12,500 ohms, so there can be large changes too.

    Paul
    Stress-release sessions free of charge available 24/7 from PaulsRobot3, exactly personalized. E.g., address "My abusive Uncle David." Download to your own computer or use online. No cost to you at all. One zip file contains the whole lot: 7612 files, 327 MB, 29 session modules, HTML web pages and mp3s only, no javascript, no executable programs. Mostly non-Scn. Download the latest zip file here: http://paulsrobot.com/zips/PaulsRobo...2014-03-09.zip.

  10. #50
    Gold Meritorious Patron AnonOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    Hey, AO...
    You would have had better luck actually getting someone to show up by simply mentioning CFI and their intent.
    That's what I originally posted and then Alex and Zinj got in to crash the thread, which is fine.

    You can contact them directly and I posted the info above. IIG is a sub-group of CFI in Los Angeles. There's an anon that's part of the group too.
    http://www.iigwest.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    You made it the AO show with your talk of needles. I understand your skepticism and accept it. But your derision is unwarranted. The invitation FEELS like this; "Show up and I'll prove you are crazy."
    You're right about that, but I'm honest about it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    CFI plus a trained auditor doing E-meter drills is interesting.
    Not really. Screams of pain and e-meters blowing up, now that's interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    It is clear you really have your mind made up on GSR phenomenon without testing it. As an engineer you now better.
    Do you think we need to stand under an apple tree again and confirm gravity? I knew the e-meter was bullshit 25 years ago, just by looking at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    And yes in the E-meter books resistance is mentioned, the mechanism described is mental image pictures affect body resistance as measure by a Wheatstone Bridge circuit. That's in the books. It is not explicitly labeled GSR although it may be in some lectures. But yes, the meter measures resistance and that is what auditors are taught.
    It better NOT mention GSR, because that would invalidate the whole use of e-meters as a method of measuring thoughts! Last time I checked, my hand skin did not have much to do with thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    We've covered the E-meter territory before. I'd like to sum up your claims...

    1. E-meter reads are either sweat or movement based.

    2. There is no GSR response to mental activity.

    3. Auditing is a fraud.

    Regarding point 1:

    Two seconds on a meter will teach you that is not the case. The needle is dynamic. The reads happen quickly, yes people sweat and it will cause a steady decrease in resistance over time. But all the standard reads of auditing occur independant of this mechanism. Yes, movement affects the needle. And quite a bit. But unless the PC is intentionally moving this is not a problem. You can simulate some reads by hand and body movement. But an auditor is trained to recognize this. Involuntary micro-movements of the hand in no way account for ALL needle phenomenon and have almost NO EFFECT on needle movement.
    In my brief experience, I could keep it steady regardless of the discussion. There was a slight drift to the right (falling), which I attribute to slow build up of sweat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    Point 2: See the following link. Carl Jung studied the mind/GSR link a long time ago and established there IS a connection. There are MANY, MANY research papers showing this. This is not in doubt in the mental health community. It is established fact.

    http://sidis.net/galvanicjung3.htm
    When you get nervous, you sweat and GSR resistance lowers and that's about it. If you think of cute puppies or what Jeffery Dahmer had for breakfast, I don't think the reading will be that different. (mind you, I have not tested it yet, but that's my hunch) If you get startled by a loud noise or a slap at the back of the head, then the electricity going to your muscles will definitely register on the device.

    Carl Jung was a nut case. He was not really a scientist in my opinion. He was no Freud, and even Freud has been proven mostly wrong. Science progresses and will further improve over time.

    About 15 years ago, I dated a psychiatrist and we were in a bookstore to buy a book by Jung. I simply saw the title "Synchronicity" and told her it was bullshit. She said, yeah but it's good bullshit! She liked reading that stuff. BTW, I caught up with her at the SF Psych convention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Been Done Had View Post
    Point 3: This is subjective. I have had gains from auditing. Mostly along the lines of self awareness.
    You had "gains" because you spent many hours with a human discussing your problems. That's very theraputic.

    You also spent a small fortune, which I believe would have been better spend speaking to a liscensed psychologist, who by law must have a PhD here in CA. It's also very likely that you didn't have any problems, which is the case for most people entering Scientology. They're perfectly fine going in and the higher up the bridge they go, the more messed up they are. Jason Begehe said that.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

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