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Thread: A theory of Hubbard, Dianetics and Scientology.

  1. #21
    Fool on the Hill Voltaire's Child's Avatar
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    He was obviously quite competent in many respects. He created Dn as a self help methodology, originally, and people (regardless of whether one believes in its efficacy or not) really liked it. That's competence.

    He then created the cult. He had no trouble doing that. He had no trouble amassing many millions- if not billions of dollars. That's competence.

    And all that's without considering any possible efficacy to "the tech" which I'm also able to do.
    I am truly into myself, yes. And I'm just as interested in other people. When I'm not thinking of one, I'm thinking of the other.

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    Patron Meritorious bluewiggirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluffy View Post
    He was obviously quite competent in many respects. He created Dn as a self help methodology, originally, and people (regardless of whether one believes in its efficacy or not) really liked it. That's competence.

    He then created the cult. He had no trouble doing that. He had no trouble amassing many millions- if not billions of dollars. That's competence.

    And all that's without considering any possible efficacy to "the tech" which I'm also able to do.
    Fluffy, you know I love you.

    He got kicked out of the navy for almost starting a war, he flunked out of college, and he was a horrible writer. The fact that he was able to write something that looked like what people wanted to hear does not make up for the rest of the miserable failures in his life. Making a cult isn't hard. People for the most part WANT to be led and WANT there to be someone who has all of the answers. And even with that knowledge it still took him a while to get off the ground, and still spent years running from one country to another to international waters to escape the consequences of his actions. I would say that's a little trouble.

    If the tech works for anyone (and I will not argue that it seems to for some people) that is in no way an indication that Hubbard was a good, noble, or even competent person. There's plenty of resources you can look up if you choose to see where he got the ideas for the various parts of Dianetics and Scientology. Past lives were not a new idea, regression therapy was not a new idea, even the concept of having different minds wasn't new (id/ego/superego anyone?).
    I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

  3. #23
    Fool on the Hill Voltaire's Child's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluewiggirl View Post
    Fluffy, you know I love you.

    He got kicked out of the navy for almost starting a war, he flunked out of college, and he was a horrible writer. The fact that he was able to write something that looked like what people wanted to hear does not make up for the rest of the miserable failures in his life. Making a cult isn't hard. People for the most part WANT to be led and WANT there to be someone who has all of the answers. And even with that knowledge it still took him a while to get off the ground, and still spent years running from one country to another to international waters to escape the consequences of his actions. I would say that's a little trouble.

    If the tech works for anyone (and I will not argue that it seems to for some people) that is in no way an indication that Hubbard was a good, noble, or even competent person. There's plenty of resources you can look up if you choose to see where he got the ideas for the various parts of Dianetics and Scientology. Past lives were not a new idea, regression therapy was not a new idea, even the concept of having different minds wasn't new (id/ego/superego anyone?).
    I didn't say he was competent at everything but he knew how to create a self help methodology. He knew how to get people to follow him. He knew how to make money.

    Don't judge all his books by Mission Earth- which is LOUSY. I'm NOT a fan of his books because I prefer Orson Scott Card and some other science fiction writers but even so, I've read a number of his pulp sci fi and western stories and some of his early books. They were NOT terrible. They weren't my cup of tea but some were actually good, if one likes that sort of thing.

    I said NOTHING about goodness or nobility. And there's a REASON I didn't.
    I am truly into myself, yes. And I'm just as interested in other people. When I'm not thinking of one, I'm thinking of the other.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluewiggirl View Post
    It has always seemed to me that Hubbard starts off as an incompetent bastard and slowly degenerates into a tragic figure wrapped up so tightly within his own mythology that he can't escape.
    A "bastard"?, possibly. I never met him but have heard a lot of first hand accounts which attest to his "wide range of behavior". Many of his actions were clearly motivated by his own self-interst or without regard to the welfare of others.

    Was he "incompetent"? No. He was immensely capable in some regards without question. Both he & the church confuse the areas in which he was more than competent with areas in which he was merely competent or even incompetent.

    Hubbard had some genuine talents. He gained the direct assistance & loyalty of many other hugely talented, intelligent & capable people. They respected his very genuine abilities. It's a mistake to dismiss his abilities because of his obvious flaws.



    Dianetics from what I can tell is a relatively well-intentioned attempt to create a religion that people would buy.
    [n.b. Dianetics is actually the "non-spiritual" aspect. Scientology is the religion. ]



    I don't know how that theory would sit with practicing freezoners, but based on the materials available to us it seems to fit pretty well.
    Some would agree with you.


    Mark A. Baker

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluewiggirl View Post
    Fluffy, you know I love you.

    He got kicked out of the navy for almost starting a war,
    Not true. Mexico is quite accustomed to u.s. naval violations of there waters. Nothing remarkable there. The U.S. Navy is not know for consideration shown to others. Such interactions are not uncommon although they rarely come to public attention, either during or after the fact.

    Many of his actions while in the service were erratic. Such behavior is inclined to attract attention & disapprobation from his seniors. By such actions he demonstrated he was unfit for naval command. Command ability is rare. In his case, the lack of fitness may well have been a reflection of his mental health rather than his competency as an officer.

    Trust me as a former maritime ship's officer, there is a very clear distinction.



    he flunked out of college,
    So have a lot of successful individuals. Hubbard was not gifted with the skills requisite for a career in academia.


    and he was a horrible writer.
    Again it could be argued that many (if not most ) successful writers are.

    I don't generally like his popular style of prose much. He wrote for a popular market not noted for literary discrimination. His stories are typical for the genre. They aren't timeless works of art but pulp fiction typically isn't. However, he was a very good popular communicator. He wasn't necessarily accurate or truthful but he got his points across to a broad public audience.


    Mark A. Baker
    Last edited by Mark A. Baker; 14th August 2009 at 09:31 PM.

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    Patron Meritorious bluewiggirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluffy View Post
    I didn't say he was competent at everything but he knew how to create a self help methodology. He knew how to get people to follow him. He knew how to make money.

    Don't judge all his books by Mission Earth- which is LOUSY. I'm NOT a fan of his books because I prefer Orson Scott Card and some other science fiction writers but even so, I've read a number of his pulp sci fi and western stories and some of his early books. They were NOT terrible. They weren't my cup of tea but some were actually good, if one likes that sort of thing.

    I said NOTHING about goodness or nobility. And there's a REASON I didn't.
    okay, mission earth was the one piece of his fiction that I tried to read through, so there's a chance that some of his older stuff might be to my liking. I will grant you that one.
    I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

  7. #27
    Patron Meritorious bluewiggirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    Not true. He got routed out of the navy at the end of WWII. Most naval personnel did. How much of the military culture are you familiar with, particularly post-WWII? The time and people are truly "foreign" to modern attitudes. As to his routing out of the navy, he was put on medical leave first. His naval career was erratic. His actions demonstrated he was unfit for naval command. Command skills are rare. In his case his lack of fitness may well have been a reflection of his mental health rather than his competency as an officer.
    ...
    Mark A. Baker
    Would you accept "mentally ill" over "incompetent" in that case?
    I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluffy View Post
    He was obviously quite competent in many respects. He created Dn as a self help methodology, originally, and people (regardless of whether one believes in its efficacy or not) really liked it. That's competence.

    He then created the cult. He had no trouble doing that. He had no trouble amassing many millions- if not billions of dollars. That's competence.

    And all that's without considering any possible efficacy to "the tech" which I'm also able to do.
    Yeah he was obviously quite competent in a few respects, he was a skilled hypnotist and a master con man. That is something everyone can agree on.
    Yes lurkers you are not alone, everyone thinks Scientology is creepy, it's not just you

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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluewiggirl View Post
    Would you accept "mentally ill" over "incompetent" in that case?

    Me? Absolutely. My hypothesis is he was Bipolar Type I.


    With regard to your Battlefield Earth comment:

    I don't think his early fiction to be very good either. I did enjoy "Ol' Doc Methusalh" somewhat. It's very stilted but amusing. I also suspect it may have been the inspiration for Heinlein's foray into the Lazarus Long opera. The late stuff is crap. I actually think they might be forgeries. If so they are not very good forgeries. They are too deliberate in attempting to recreate his "voice". Probably ghost written according to his notes and put out in his name. Whether he actually knew about & authorized it ...


    Mark A. Baker

  10. #30
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    Lazarus Long existed *long* before 'Mission Earth' (which I have read) and can't possibly have had any influence from Ron.

    I don't suppose it would help to mention that comparing Ron to Heinlein will not go well

    Zinj

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