What would you have Aaron Saxton do?

[EP - Ethics Particle]

There's a thread here with photos of ANZO staff and you can see Aaron as a 15yo in the front down in the right-hand corner of the AOSH ANZO picture.

...snip

He has my undying support, not necessarily for his actions past and present.

But for the fact he's trying his damn hardest to make up for the carnage that is Co$ and his part in it.

And he's sticking his neck out an awful long way to do so.

So if you pick a fight with him, you pick it with me too.

He's my friend, and I feel damn fucking proud and honoured that he is.

I recall baby showers, people seemingly happy, and a celebration of life. I also saw the "lower" (in the grade chart sense) orgs as being the core of scn, not a punishment. If I didn't see it that way, why would that be where I wound up?

The people I met who went to lower orgs weren't permitted to discuss any disagreements, so how would I know otherwise?



...snip...

So no, I didn't know a lot of that stuff was going on.

About people being RPFed -- well, it was my obviously naive believe that this was rare, happened after applying Ethics gradients, didn't last as long as it did in oh-so-many cases, and wasn't as degrading as it clearly was for so many.

I had no idea that capricious seniors ran all the way to the top, because they weren't in my immediate command chain. I knew there were other seniors I didn't want to work under, though.

I had no idea that Sea Org members were so chronically sleep deprived, and if I had known their overall living conditions, I'd have left before Life Repair.

Aaron's experiences are from the bowels of ugliness. I saw some ugly, but I know for certain I wouldn't have put up with Aaron's experiences. I'm not blaming him. We're all different people.

Scooter, I'm with ya all the way!

And I sure wish I had thetanic's cetrainty that they wouldn't have put up with experiences like Aaron's.

I had no idea...

Mike Horton
EP

[Smilla]

Carmel, don't change what happened. You accused me of attacking Aaron for giving public testimony. That was a lie. I always said and believed what he was doing (now) is right and for the sake of inciting controversy, you altered what I said.

But here I am, about to give testimony to the SMH tomorrow, but it isn't important, is it? And I was an SMH kid, but that isn't important, is it? Because UNLIKE Aaron, I did not beat up staff, I did not force staff to have abortions, I did not personally commit crimes against my fellow staff members and fellow human beings. You can sugar coat it all you wish, but in fact, I have been on this Board only since Dec 1 and you have all but deserted and attacked me simply because I was NOT a criminal. Because I was shocked and hurt by what he actually did, and WHAT SANE HUMAN BEING WOULDN'T BE? I just wasn't interesting enough, I guess. So I must do what I can on my own with only attacks and NO support from you. And I have only come OUT less than a week ago!!!!! Bloody hell!!!

And STILL you haven't written me a PM!!! You posted this topic INSTEAD of writing me a PM, and I have a copy of your chat about me with other members insulting me and you did NOT respond to my PM to relax, take it easy, we'll sort it out. So go on, then, keep up the public display!!!! Don't write me a PM because you only get stats for the public responses. And tomorrow, I am ON MY OWN. A WHOLE LOT OF GOOD YOU HAVE DONE TO GIVE ME ANY EMOTIONAL SUPPORT. YOU UPSET THE SHIT OUT OF ME.

Deleted

[Ladybird]

We all had different experiences at different levels of scientology, but each of us were just peices in Hubbards game. It takes all of us putting our peices together to see the whole game and how it works. No one peice is more or less important than another.

Hubbard set the game up so that those at the lower levels of scientology do NOT know about the scam. Most scientologists, including most Sea Org, are true believers, and just like at each level of the Bridge, a scientologist learns more and more as he moves up the heirarchy within the cult. The experience of a public is going to be alot different from that of a Mission staff, Org staff, Sea Org, CMO, INT, etc.

LRH wrote alot of references about games, and reading them now, after I am out, I see that he really did tell us exactly what he was doing, we just didn't see that he was doing it to us.

Remember the saying "The best place to hide something is right in plain sight."? I think that is just what Hubbard did with alot of things.

This is at the end of PDC lecture 39 of 12 Dec 52 titled
"Games Processing":

"Now the caste system of games consists of this -


The Maker of Games - He has no rules, he runs by no rules.


The Players of the Game - Rules know but he obeys them.


The Assistant Players - Merely obey the players.


The Peices - Obey rules as dictated by players, but
they don't know the rules. (and then what do you know?).


And then there's Broken Pieces - They aren't even in the
game but they're still in the game (and they are in a terrible
maybe, am I in a game or am I not in a game).


Now, how to make a piece (this is how to make a piece) -


1. Deny that there is a game
2. Hide the rules from them
3. Give them all the penalties and no wins
4. Remove all goals (ALL Goals)


Enforce their playing.
Inhibit their enjoying.


Make them look like but forbid their being like players
(look like god but you can't be god).


To make a piece continue to be a piece, permit it to associate
only with pieces and deny the existence of players (never
let the PCs find out that there are players).


Now out of this you're going to get a game".

[BunnySkull]

Carmel, don't change what happened..... yadda yadda yadda........ ON MY OWN. A WHOLE LOT OF GOOD YOU HAVE DONE TO GIVE ME ANY EMOTIONAL SUPPORT. YOU UPSET THE SHIT OUT OF ME.

Gottabrain, it seems you think this is ALL ABOUT YOU. It's not. You've attacked Aaron to draw attention to yourself and stir up unnecessary drama -- that's the mark of either someone desperate for attention, OSA or a bad troll. Either way its not welcome here. You don't seem to realize you brought this on yourself.

I think you may be the one who needs to take time out, read what's out there (a ton), let it all sink in and process it. You've only been out a very short time and I think you are in for a lot of big shocks in the next few months. Don't get off on a bad foot here before you take the time to find out what's really been going on for the past 15 years - what others have experienced and suffered on the inside and for fighting this cult - before you decide to judge others.

You came here and attacked Aaron, and others, who have been around far longer than you and know far, far more than you both about the cult and about what it takes to fight the cult. Carmel has managed to get a Senate Inquiry into the cult (with Aaron, Scooter and other's help) do you have any idea how much work and courage that took?!?!!? Obviously not. It's a huge fucking deal btw.

I'm sure you are going through a rough time, don't make it rougher by making ill informed attacks on others. If you need support I'm sure you will be able to find it here and other places but what's not needed (nor tolerated) is drama, unnecessary public spectacles and people thinking the world revolves around them.

EDIT- just noticed a lot of people are deleting comments related to GB and I'll delete the above if needed. I do not want to continue this unnecessary drama/derail. It will be my last comment on GB and any admin is welcome to delete (or ask me to) if this is seen as a continuation of the problem.

[He-man]

Aaron did some things that I too have a hard time to melt, but he is doing something to make amends for it.

He also shows regret. He doesnt make excuses like some other guy I could mention, he doesnt blame DM for what he was personally involved in.

How many other ex sea org who have been doing the same things are doing that?

I haven´t heard single person stand up and tell the same things Aaron has. Taking responsibility for the mindfuck. So I admire him for that, he has guts.

Aaron is a good guy in my book. People can change. And he is most certainly doing something to make the Co$ change.

[byte301]

Gottabrain, it seems you think this is ALL ABOUT YOU. It's not. You've attacked Aaron to draw attention to yourself and stir up unnecessary drama -- that's the mark of either someone desperate for attention, OSA or a bad troll. Either way its not welcome here. You don't seem to realize you brought this on yourself.

I think you may be the one who needs to take time out, read what's out there (a ton), let it all sink in and process it. You've only been out a very short time and I think you are in for a lot of big shocks in the next few months. Don't get off on a bad foot here before you take the time to find out what's really been going on for the past 15 years - what others have experienced and suffered on the inside and for fighting this cult - before you decide to judge others.

You came here and attacked Aaron, and others, who have been around far longer than you and know far, far more than you both about the cult and about what it takes to fight the cult. Carmel has managed to get a Senate Inquiry into the cult (with Aaron, Scooter and other's help) do you have any idea how much work and courage that took?!?!!? Obviously not. It's a huge fucking deal btw.

I'm sure you are going through a rough time, don't make it rougher by making ill informed attacks on others. If you need support I'm sure you will be able to find it here and other places but what's not needed (nor tolerated) is drama, unnecessary public spectacles and people thinking the world revolves around them.

EDIT- just noticed a lot of people are deleting comments related to GB and I'll delete the above if needed. I do not want to continue this unnecessary drama/derail. It will be my last comment on GB and any admin is welcome to delete (or ask me to) if this is seen as a continuation of the problem.

This^^^

[Dulloldfart]

I mention this every now and then. The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo, the Stanford Prison Experiment guy, both a book and website, talks about both situational factors and dispositional factors contributing to how we as individuals act in social situations. This is the "good apple in a bad barrel" factor.

There is a tendency to think only of the dispositional factors, and ignore the situational ones. This holds true for looking at others' actions, and also for looking at one's own. It is easy to sit in an armchair and say, "Oh, I would never have done that," but the Stanford Prison Experiment showed that many normal people in reality would do exactly that when placed in an extreme situation.

The book is well worth reading. Not as a means to excuse all wrongdoing, but just to increase one's understanding of how nice people can turn into assholes in the right situation and when out of that situation can turn back into nice people again. And sometimes, of course, they find it hard to shuck off all the baggage they created when they were being assholes.

Paul

[Smilla]

Gottabrain, it seems you think this is ALL ABOUT YOU. It's not. You've attacked Aaron to draw attention to yourself and stir up unnecessary drama -- that's the mark of either someone desperate for attention, OSA or a bad troll. Either way its not welcome here. You don't seem to realize you brought this on yourself.

I think you may be the one who needs to take time out, read what's out there (a ton), let it all sink in and process it. You've only been out a very short time and I think you are in for a lot of big shocks in the next few months. Don't get off on a bad foot here before you take the time to find out what's really been going on for the past 15 years - what others have experienced and suffered on the inside and for fighting this cult - before you decide to judge others.

You came here and attacked Aaron, and others, who have been around far longer than you and know far, far more than you both about the cult and about what it takes to fight the cult. Carmel has managed to get a Senate Inquiry into the cult (with Aaron, Scooter and other's help) do you have any idea how much work and courage that took?!?!!? Obviously not. It's a huge fucking deal btw.

I'm sure you are going through a rough time, don't make it rougher by making ill informed attacks on others. If you need support I'm sure you will be able to find it here and other places but what's not needed (nor tolerated) is drama, unnecessary public spectacles and people thinking the world revolves around them.

EDIT- just noticed a lot of people are deleting comments related to GB and I'll delete the above if needed. I do not want to continue this unnecessary drama/derail. It will be my last comment on GB and any admin is welcome to delete (or ask me to) if this is seen as a continuation of the problem.

I deleted mine because I felt that I'd been a bit harsh, but I'm with you on what you said. GB needs to chill out and, get used to the rough and tumble of debate on the internet. Also, one can't insist on PM's - people will answer or not - it's up to them. This is my last post on the subject of GB in this thread too.

[anon2487]

Aaron, personally I like what I've seen of you: you're a character and you're real.

However, even if that wasn't the case, I'd have huge amount of respect for your courage and your integrity.

There's not a single one of us out there that doesn't have the ability to deceive ourselves, and taking a truly honest look in the mirror is a very hard thing to do. To admit what you saw publicly, doubly so.

Whilst you're not the first person to put yourself in the CofS's firing line, and I've heard others talk about crimes they perpetrated too; your candour and unvarnished honesty: e.g. admitting that in some instances you even took pleasure in some of the things you did, is to my knowledge unique, and it's for that that you have my utmost respect.

Like SchwimmelPuckel, I believe it's a big part of what makes your testimony so important:

I know that you've not tried to absolve yourself of responsibility in any way, but your actions didn't happen in isolation, they were part of a culture that exists because of mechanisms Hubbard introduced, that were designed to subvert and twist people's natural behavioural instincts.

Bringing that to life is vital, as it allows people like me, who've never had any experience of the cult, to really get a sense of what's going on; and the people who ultimately are in a position to ensure that the crimes are stopped, are in that exact same position.

So "what would I have you do?"

Stay true to your conscience, but don't allow yourself to be consumed by what needs to be done: the crimes will be stopped, but it'll be death by a thousand cuts, not a single blow, and that requires ALL of us.

There's a saying that "men only have enough blood to fill one head at a time." Whilst I'd prefer you not to youtube it, worry if you're not keeping that saying alive.

Seriously.

Take care dude, (and yep, to the people with their snide little "double curved" comments and all the rest of it: just fuck 'em.)

[anon2487]

I mention this every now and then. The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo, the Stanford Prison Experiment guy, both a book and website, talks about both situational factors and dispositional factors contributing to how we as individuals act in social situations. This is the "good apple in a bad barrel" factor.

There is a tendency to think only of the dispositional factors, and ignore the situational ones. This holds true for looking at others' actions, and also for looking at one's own. It is easy to sit in an armchair and say, "Oh, I would never have done that," but the Stanford Prison Experiment showed that many normal people in reality would do exactly that when placed in an extreme situation.

The book is well worth reading. Not as a means to excuse all wrongdoing, but just to increase one's understanding of how nice people can turn into assholes in the right situation and when out of that situation can turn back into nice people again. And sometimes, of course, they find it hard to shuck off all the baggage they created when they were being assholes.

Paul

Another really illuminating example, is the Milgram experiment:

In 1961, three months after the start of the trial of Adolf Eichmann, Professor Stanley Milgram wanted to know whether what had occurred in Nazi Germany, was an anomaly: something unique to the time and the place. Prior to the experiment he devised, he believed that it was.

The test he created took people from a large cross section of society, and placed them in a situation where they were asked by an authority figure, to knowingly electrocute someone to death.

He and other colleagues, expected at best, a very very small number of people to go through with it.

In fact, a staggering 65% of all participants did.

Since then, the experiment has been conducted numerous times, and consistently produces a similar figure.

The following video, shows the experiment being conducted again in 2009 for BBC TV: