Scientology Breeds Fanaticism

[Gadfly]

Dear Gadfly,

Thank you for not editing or altering this thread, but adding corrections. This is very valuable for outsiders to see and understand how it takes Ex's time and self-examination to overcome the indoctrination, following leaving Corporate Scientology. Both your original thoughts, and your latter recanting and clarifications of them, are REALLY VALUABLE from a sociological point of view. It demonstrates how a formerly deticated and active church member's thoughts on the subject can and do shift and change over time, once they get free of the cult. Thank you for being more honest than perfectionistic here. It serves the common good very well. One thing I have always admired about you is your capacity for honest self-examination and disclosure.

People's views do shift over time and with different exposure to ideas and experiences. This should give hope to the families and loved ones of those who are still very indoctrinated, and seem hoplessly lost in a destructive cult. Viewpoints and circumstances can, and will change.

Thanks! I chose NOT to edit the earlier post exactly for THAT reason. So that the observant reader might notice the shift and change that can and does occur over time with any ex-Scientology church member. But also, part of my strategy when I originally wrote it was to appeal to FZer types, who generally have the idea that "Scientology is good and it is only management that is bad". I can and do present things at times to make sense to a specific "audience".

[lkwdblds]

I was going through a closet today and found a folder with various Scientology issues in it. I briefly scanned through it. Doing so made me realize, once again, just how severe the Scientology indoctrination is. There is an underlying viewpoint instilled in members that slants their reality, conditions their reasoning ability, and allows them to commit harm to others. What is this viewpoint?

It is the viewpoint that, "we are the last free beings, we are the ONLY group able to salvage people, we are the ONLY group with a workable tech able to solve the problems of society, and we are on a live-or-die-in-the-attempt mission to bring this wonderful LRH tech to every man, woman and child on planet Earth".

Yes, it is an insane view. I have found that any group that considers itself SUPERIOR to everybody else, philosophically, ideologically or religiously, also practices the maxim: The ends justify the means. In other words, these sort of people will stoop to behavior few others will, because they BELIEVE they are the recipients and holders of some GREAT TRUTH! I have seen it over and over. Church of Scientology members routinely get to a point, rather quickly due to constant indoctrination of KSW-related materials, where he or she truly believes that only his or her group is "right". Also, Hubbard endlessly puts out the view that you will end up a "cinder", "in oblivion", "tortured forever", "dying a thousand horrible deaths" if you fail to get Scn applied to yourself. The message is relentless. Hubbard repeatedly brings up how little time there is, how nasty and bad the enemy is, and that unless "we" do the job NOW, we won't ever get another chance! Constant threats of doom and gloom (as with most religions).

I agree totally, your statement is true and well stated

There are many LRH quotes, which members read and study routinely, which drive this attitude home. Here are a few. I will add more every once in awhile as there are MANY.

"I expect and need your help to carry out the broad mission of de-contaminating this area of the universe". (An Open Letter To All Clears)

"Will you take advantage of the carefully marked trail upward? I hope you do, my friends. For if you don't, it will be very lonely in the sky". (LRH ED 347 INT, RJ 37)

I believe he said it more melodramatically as well, "Too long I have borne this responsibiltiy alone, YOU SHARE IT WITH ME NOW!"
"A handful of us are working our guts out to beat Deadline Earth. On us alone depends whether your kid will ever see sixteen or your people will ever make it at all. A few of us see the world has got a chance if we don't dawdle along the way. Our chance is a thin chance at best. We are working as hard as we can in Scientology. And, the only slim chance this planet has rests on a few slim shoulders, overworked, underpaid and fought - the Scientologist. Later on, if we make it, what will be your answer to this question? Did you help?" ("Five Years", 1967, Auditor Mag #9)

"In this time and place - for possibly just a little while, we have this chance. To go free and to make it. Planets and cultures are frail things. They do not endure. I strongly advise you work hard at it - don't waste this brief breath in eternity." (LRH ED 342 INT, RJ 35)

"I have been researching upper OT levels, and I can tell you this very plainly: If Scn doesn't make it worldwide you've had it - yes, I mean you. One is not working for just this life. He is working for any future life at all". (HCO PL 14 March 1982 Financial Irregularities)

"A post in a Scientology Organization isn't a job. It's a trust and a crusade. We're free mean and women - probably the last free men and women on earth. Remember, we'll have to come back to Earth some day no matter what 'happens' to us. If we don't do a good job now we may never get another chance. Yes, I'm sure that's the way it is. So, we have an organization, we have a field we must support, we have a chance. That's more than we had last time night's curtain began to fall on freedom." (HCO PL Your Post)

"We didn't, a long time ago, get in Ethics. We goofed! And the whole race went into the soup where it remains to this day. And, if we are to live in this universe at all we are going to have to get in Ethics and clean it up. Whether that's easy to confront or not is beside the point. The horrid truth is that our fate is FAR more unconfrontable". (HCO PL 20 Oct 67 Conditions, How To Assign)

These are just a random sampling of the type of "fanatic-creating fodder" that Hubbard slips in every chance he can. I could examine each statement, and critique each in various ways, but for now, let the comments fly. The main point for now is that when any person accepts, adopts and comes to BELIEVE this sort of stuff, well, that person's entire outlook becomes FAR different than most other people. The person becomes severe, rigid, uncompromising, working towards goals that make little sense to the rest of humanity, or in other words he or she takes on the color of a FANATIC. Also, once a person actually "thinks" with this sort of scenario, his or her behavior changes markedly. The GOAL, the TRUST, the CRUSADE become more important than anything else, and ANYTHING that slows or interferes with realizing the GOAL (clearing the planet) becomes BAD - to be attacked, and destroyed. That is why the Church can comfortable, without any guilt or remorse, frame an innocent person in a crime, which she didn't commit (Paulette Copper). That is why the Church can lie, over and over, because their "goal" is lofty and pure (in their twisted, distorted mentalities). These type of people constantly think with and apply the idea, "the ends justify the means". Anything done to win is acceptable. ANYTHING! Limitations, restrictions and therefore, decency, do NOT exist within the realm of brutal Scientology indoctrination.

Yes, yes, yes!! your summary strikes home and hits a home run! Just one comment, Corporate Scientology, with Hubbard alive and at the helm, seemed to offer an alternative to those who did not like the direction in which the societies of Earth were traveling. Let's face it, though there are many loving peoople and much good happening at any given time on Earth, there is a lot of False data being accepted by people and there are many dangerous governments trying to get their hands on nuclear weapons and so forth. In Hubbard's hay day, before all his faults and lies were exposed, he did seem to offer an alternative to the "dangerous course on which Earth was headed".

Now we know that Hubbard is not the answer and certainly his successor is not the answer either, even more strongly so. The Agency that should be wearing the hat to help correct the problems of Earth seems to be by default, THE UNITED NATIONS. Unfortunately, that organization is weak and seems to be corrupt itself and also be fangless and can't get things done. My question to you is that with Hubbard now eliminated as the "Hope of Mankind", where do we go from here?

You are well read and seem to know a lot of what is going on. For those of us who once believed in Hubbard and his Organizations, now that he is totally debunked, who or what do we look to so as to better conditions and truly set out to achieve those many lofty goals which Hubbard only used to ensnare us into his trap? Have you given much thought to this topic? Many of us, I assume you included, share those lofty goals and the moment Hubbard is revealed to not be the answer, our minds search for something else to latch on to and to work to promote. What do we do next?
Lakey

[Gadfly]

Yes, yes, yes!! your summary strikes home and hits a home run! Just one comment, Corporate Scientology, with Hubbard alive and at the helm, seemed to offer an alternative to those who did not like the direction in which the societies of Earth traveling. Let's face it, though there are many loving peoople and much good happening at any given time on Earth, there is a lot of False data being accepted by people and there are many dangerous governments trying to get their hands on nuclear weapons and so forth. In Hubbard's hay day, before all his faults and lies were exposed, he did seem to offer an alternative to the "dangerous course on which Earth was headed".

He offered a "promise" of an alternative. An illusion of an alternative. But, really, there was no actual alternative at all. He created a MOCK UP, and people brought that mockup to life by agreeing and FEEDING the mockup with their own energy. Of course, that is the way mutual life, shared existence functions. It goes on all of the time, and Scientology is only but one small example. What makes it so obvious with Scientology is how exactly Hubbard fine-tuned the whole thing - pulling people in, getting them to happily and willingly bring "his vision" to LIFE. Again, it is a form of mental/spiritual vampirism, sort of. I have said this before, but it is a difficult thing to explain, and I am only going to do it here briefly: Just because some person correctly points out, criticizes and attacks things that ARE wrong with some world, or scene or situation, does not AT ALL mean or imply that this same person has ANY VALID SOLUTIONS within the same realm of critique. Karl Marx correctly discussed various faults with the theories and practices of "capitalism", yet his "solution" was even more insane. This often large dichotomy between correctly pointing out "wrongnesses" and "properly handling such wrongnesses" is VERY common, and many examples can easily be provided. The John Birch Society, as an early sampling of various conspiracy theories, did correctly delineate some flaws and problems with the evolution of the USA (from a certain viewpoint), BUT the "solutions"? Lots of people can correctly critique. Solving the problems are something else entirely.

Now we know that Hubbard is not the answer and certainly his successor is not the answer either, even more strongly so. The Agency that should be wearing the hat to help correct the problems of Earth seems to be by default, THE UNITED NATIONS. Unfortunately, that organization is weak and seems to be corrupt itself and also be fangless and can't get things done. My question to you is that with Hubbard now eliminated as the "Hope of Mankind", where do we go from here?

Generally, any person with a "solution", who is really working hard to enact that solution, has an agenda of his or her own. Any study of "lobbying" within the US government will show that sorry tendency. I do agree with Hubbard when he said or implied that "groups" generally do NOT come up with the big ideas. Microsoft - Bill Gates; "Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You" - Jesus; Theories of Relativity - Einstein. The BIG IDEAS do come from individuals. Of course, duh! Any "group" is somewhat a mental construct, whereas the only actual existing CONSCIOUS entity involves the individual. Ideas exist in any individual mind - the notion of a "group mind" is an abstraction. The apparency of any "group mind" is really a collection of single minds functioning along some agreed-upon set of ideas. Anyway, the UN is controlled by people with personal interests and "agendas". I can't see how it can be any other way. People try to bring into reality what he or she believes should be (or what he or she currently resonates with on some level).

You are well read and seem to know a lot of what is going on. For those of us who once believed in Hubbard and his Organizations, now that he is totally debunked, who or what do we look to so as to better conditions and truly set out to achieve those many lofty goals which Hubbard only used to ensnare us into his trap? Have you given much thought to this topic? Many of us, I assume you included, share those lofty goals and the moment Hubbard is revealed to not be the answer, our minds search for something else to latch on to and to work to promote. What do we do next?
Lakey

See BOLD above for a few responses.

I have given some random, occasional thought to the subject. It is a complex subject. I will be honest. I am fundamentally selfish. I have always done what I want, pretty much because it was of interest to and for me. Musicians don't generally write or play songs for everyone else, but do it for "themselves", often as a creative outlet, and if others like it, and it turns into a lucrative profession, well all the better. My interest in Scientology was mostly out of a personal desire to "learn the truth". It was a step along THAT path for me. My interest wasn't so much to change the world, as I never really bought into much of that while involved.

This is too involved of a subject, and it would take another LONG essay. And, some careful thought. Off the top of my head?

1) It is a multi-dimensional question and problem. I don't think that physical reality is the only "reality". I don't mean that in some "theta-MEST" dichotomy. But, that there are probably MANY "alternate universes", that somehow relate to this one. Such ideas appear in the various notions of the Chakras, 12 aspects of the Kabbala, "rays of light", Theosophic notions of the "astral", "mental", "etheric" planes, etc.

2) If in fact ANY reality is CREATED for any person, solely BY THAT PERSON, and I tend in that direction of thought, well, the actual observable reality then is NOT the primary thing of concern. Is it? All of the problems "out in the world" are simply and only an outpouring, or out-manifestation of the current states and conditions of the people (entities) involved. You re looking at the wrong place for answers and for solutions. Ghandi SORT OF said that when he said, "be the change you want to see in the world". He implied the notion. It IS an eastern notion. You can not ever change the world through force or manipulation of "institutions". Really, the ONLY way the world changes is when IDEAS change ABOUT the world. When enough ideas in the heads of enough people change, then the manner and form the world takes falls into exact alignment. It is a question of evolution. Of course, many people understand this on some level, and spend no small amount of time trying to change the IDEAS of various populations to "change reality". The world will change, or "get better", when enough people view it differently. But, there is a possible real problem with that, which I discuss some below. If you change too much, you no longer find yourself "here"! So, the "world" will tend to stay the same, within a certain range anyway, by attracting entities who resonate with the common-shared energy.

3) If in fact it is all about personal evolution as an entity of consciousness, again, as I suspect it is, then all aims at change should be INSIDE yourself.

See, I got involved in Scientology, because I wanted to CHANGE MYSELF, for the better, in alignment with some set of preconceived notions I had at that time. Briefly, I had read much about the occult/eastern philosophy/meditation BEFORE involvement with Scientology. I had read in the works of Rudolf Steiner, P.D. Oespensky and others that any "valid path" would/should involve 1) a method or system, 2) a group of people working together along that system, and 3) a balance between self-work and assisting the group that enabled the system. I incorrectly assumed that Scientology fell within such a framework when I first contacted it. For me, I "read into" Scientology MORE than was there. We all do that, with EVERYTHING about "reality out there". Pretty much, anything you "see out there" is created by you for you. There are an infinite variety of possible realities for any person. Truly. You "suck out" some version, you enable a certain form this reality takes, at any moment, by what YOU breathe INTO IT. Nexies comments about "looking creates the reality" says this as well as any other. The world around you is DEAD, until you bring some small limited aspect if it to life, for you, by agreement, co-consideration, and by SEEING something as something in the way that YOU see it. By placing attention. By choosing to focus on some aspect of it all. The possibilites are endless. If you choose to look and see pain, death and hate, you will experience pain, death and hate. If you choose to see love, and wonder and joy, then you will experience THAT. Each of us seemingly has more than a little to do with the reality we SEE and experience. Choose to SEE IT DIFFERENTY and it actually does change. But, most people can't think with that notion. So, to the degree that any person wants to concentrate on and "see" a world with insanity, pain, crime and war, is the degree to which that person HELPS create and allow such a reality to exist and continue to exist. You "buy into it", and you breathe life into it. Objective reality versus subjective reality can be a somewhat slippery slope.

There is another angle to this. There may be a group of entities working to "help", "assist" and "direct" the evolution of Earth, planetary systems, and other aspects of reality. Some call these folks the Great White Brotherhood (aka Ascended Masters). Personally, while they "may" exist, with various Yogic powers and abilities of long, well-trained Lamas, tied into various alien scenarios and interests, I see it ALL as a big sales act. EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING. Including Jesus and the ascended masters. The problem is that no matter WHAT you do, as long as you are here participating, then you will buy into "some aspect of some illusion". So, since you are programmed to do THAT for quite a long time to come, choose the BEST posible version of a reality to "buy into". Discriminate. Choose carefully and choose well. And, thereby CREATE the best version of the best of all possibilities! Imagine the best, most lovely, serene, happy world that you can muster up. And FEED THAT mockup. Why settle for all the tired and lame mockups that this world generally presents as available for you? The options tend to be so limited, and droll. Don't settle.

The truth is very simple. There is that which creates - the static, Brahma, the silence within. It is the ONLY absolute "truth". All else is created. All else is arbitrary. All else is changing. All else is becoming something other than whatever it was a few seconds ago. There are TOO MANY variables involved for any person, or group, to understand, much less influence along some pre-planned path or direction.

So, for me? I don't bother with any of it. Change the world? Who is kidding who? I don't mean that from some horrible sense of depraved apathy, but from what seems to me to be a "higher" view of "that is just the way it is". It is the nature of things. Of course, help alleviate suffering wherever you can, if that interests you. And surely, don't go out of your way to make someone else's life bad in any way.

Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You

(this rule probably applies right up until the moment anybody collapses back into the nothingness from which you came - the nothingness that you actually ARE)

And, I constantly work on myself. In whatever way seems appropriate today. I meditate. I make up and practice various visualizations. I read various "growth" materials, along many lines. I try to "practice" love in my interactions with any aspect of life. I try to be kind and compassionate to animals (a wonderful suggestion of the Dalai Lama). I try to always see every other person as just another version of myself, simply at some other point on some other path. I immerse myself in Nature, as there is something "sacred" there to be found. I play in the woods, quite a great deal.

In the end it depends why YOU, the reader, got involved with Scientology. What was it that YOU were looking for? What was it that you assumed Scn could do for YOU? And, now, with Scn largely in ones "past", do you still want what you were then looking for? For me, my desires and goals change. I am not at all the same person I was when I first walked into my local org over 30 years ago, wanting to "go clear" (after having read the DN book a few times).

Currently, my primary experiment, along these lines, continues along the lines of "being". Being, with nothing else. Pushing the limit on letting it all go. Dropping all views and considerations that trap "me" within "me". Abandoning all those mental factors that create and allow a sense of "individuation" from all that is. See, I do suspect that the "ego" is entirely an artificial creation. Any and all sense of "self" is a mock up of sorts.

And really, when it comes down to it, it is THAT (ego) that causes ALL the trouble on planet Earth. To the degree that THAT dissolves, for people, and the more the better, to that degree will you then find a world without war, insanity, crime, and everything else Hubbard trumped up for you as a possible result of involvement with Scientology.

Last, the Earth may "never" change much. It may be one of many "schools". You come here to learn certain lessons. And once you learn these lessons, then YOU CHANGE, you become an entirely different package of considerations, agreements and postulates, and when you change at such a basic level, to such a large degree, you then actually FIND YOURSELF SOMEWHERE ELSE, because you now resonate with an entirely different reality. I mean it exactly as it sounds; you will no longer "come here". You simply will not be able to. In that sense, it might be that there exists a tremendous array of "worlds, universes, and alternate realities" that any being can and does "cycle through" (evolution of the "self"). But overall, the worlds don't change so much as does each entity who learns the lessons each has to offer. In a certain sense the shifts any being makes, jumping from one reality to another, is a "quantum" phenomena. It occurs in sudden leaps, when a certain "critical level" is reached. Could be . . . . . .

The world you see and experience is entirely dependent on how and what you SEE. And, how and what you SEE is determined entirely by your own personal collection of considerations, postulates and agreements, with "Karma" tossed in as a key operant factor. Change THAT, and as the theory goes, so will your REALITY - including suns, stars, planets, the laws of MEST, etc. But, it is not so much that you will "change the external world", as you will simply find yourself on a DIFFERENT WORLD. With many other souls who also currently resonate with THAT unique set of energy and vibrations (deriving solely from some unique collection of considerations, postulates and agreements).

Disclaimer: Of course, consciousness may simply be an unwanted, random side-effect of accidental cosmic evolution, being a by-product of chemical and electrical reactions in a brain.

From this last perspective, all attempts at "changing the world for the better" might be quite meaningless. This guy sort of said it:

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." "Every man who knows how to read has it in his power to magnify himself, to multiply the ways in which he exists, to make his life full, significant and interesting." — Aldous Huxley

But, the journey is not a short one. It seems to involve a near eternity (aka the "Yugas" or "eras" of Hindu lore). Relax, lighten up, and be the best that you can be based upon your own current personal value system. And, always aim to create in your imagination the best version of the world and universe that you can possibly muster up. Despite what you think is "really out there". And feed it. Energize THAT glorious mock up.

And, I am sure I missed a great deal. And, if I wrote this tomorrow, I might say something very different.

OK, I did it again. I went where the road took me. Stream of consciousness.

[SweetnessandLight]

Dear Gadfly,

I thank you for answering Lakey, stream of consciousness is good, and revealing often of that which is somewhat unexamined in our thinking or feelings. I hope your response will strike a chord in others, as it has done for me.

I only disagree with this: that we will sink back into the nothingsness from which we came, and indeed which we are. To me, it is the formless void which contains everything, so I would say, sink back into the allness from which we came, and which we in essence already are.

We've had this discussion before on the God thread, and I think we essentially agree, and that the seeming difference maybe merely a matter of semantics. It feels that way to me, anyway.

[Markus]

"You can not ever change the world through force or manipulation of "institutions". Really, the ONLY way the world changes is when IDEAS change ABOUT the world. When enough ideas in the heads of enough people change, then the manner and form the world takes falls into exact alignment. It is a question of evolution."



Yes exactly this is the way I see it too.

Love
Markus

[Gadfly]

Dear Gadfly,

I thank you for answering Lakey, stream of consciousness is good, and revealing often of that which is somewhat unexamined in our thinking or feelings. I hope your response will strike a chord in others, as it has done for me.

I only disagree with this: that we will sink back into the nothingsness from which we came, and indeed which we are. To me, it is the formless void which contains everything, so I would say, sink back into the allness from which we came, and which we in essence already are.

We've had this discussion before on the God thread, and I think we essentially agree, and that the seeming difference maybe merely a matter of semantics. It feels that way to me, anyway.

You disagree!??? Well, FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only kidding.

My words about this are so NOT anywhere ever close to whatever reality it is I think I am envisioning here, that I wouldn't even know where to start discussing a "disagreement" with any of it.

When I let all "thoughts" about this fade away, THAT is what "feels good". When there is NOTHING there! Except "awareness". Observing whatever it is you are looking at, with NO internal interference. It's tricky, because if you do it really well, everything kind of goes BYE-BYE! One has to sort of walk right "on the edge"; it is a tightrope of sorts (involving consciousness).

We are trying to talk about what much brighter and more aware folks than myself desribe as, "impossible to put into words", "beyond all conceptions", and "having nothing to do with anything remotely even close to our normal everyday experience".

Who knows? Who cares? Let It Be! Be Here Now! Go with the flow! Practice non-resistance. Cease all thinking. "Thinking" is such a low harmonic of "knowing" or "looking".

Agreement? Disagreement? It is all illusion anyway. Just mock up affinity. Nobody needs a reason to do so! Though most feel or assume that they do.

"it is the formless void which contains everything, so I would say, sink back into the allness from which we came, and which we in essence already are"

THAT works for me too!

[SweetnessandLight]

Yeah, I thought so, We are agreeing...:D

I found an excellent quote from Lao Tzu today to put here tomorrow...

'Bout how we value the pot, but it is the empty space within that makes it useful to us.

Just one of those serendipity things where I just opened a book to the "right" page to get what fit the moment, and crystalized my thoughts into someone else's words. What Jung would call synchronicity...

That happens to me a lot, and I love it when that happens! Snap!

[SweetnessandLight]

Lao Tzu, considered to be the Father of Taoism, put it this way:

"We join spokes together in a wheel, but it is the center hole that makes the wagon move,

We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want,

We hammer wood for a house, but it is the inner space that makes it liveable,

We work with being, but non-being is what we use."

Isn't that beautiful, and brilliantly applicable to this last conversation!

[Gadfly]

Lao Tzu, considered to be the Father of Taoism, put it this way:

"We join spokes together in a wheel, but it is the center hole that makes the wagon move,

We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want,

We hammer wood for a house, but it is the inner space that makes it liveable,

We work with being, but non-being is what we use."

Isn't that beautiful, and brilliantly applicable to this last conversation!

Wow! I have only seen occassional quotes of Lao Tze's. This one ALSO is amazing, as were the others. The metaphors are glorious!







Makes me want to get up, check out the dusty bookshelf, and see if I can dig up something of his.

[SweetnessandLight]

Yes, isn't it great? I've read him a lot, I love how it is a very spiritual look at a very material life, and how Taoism is so grounded in practicality. For someone raised with metaphysics, that is a good balance and foil for looking deeper at materialism (instead of just rejecting it out of hand).

Some translations are better than others. If you find anything good, feel free to share it with us! :D