Narconon Victims

[oudeis]

(SNIP)
The Narconon program has been throughly debunked by medical professionals and in fact they state that the purif is positively lethal to the liver and the constant sauna exposure puts those with heart conditions, high blood pressure and any condition that could be exacerbated by high heat coupled with massive fluid loss are at risk of damaging themselves. The claim of "sweating out toxins" and that the evidence is actually visible in the form of off-coloured glandular excretions through the skin has also been proven to be hokum.

Tachikoma,

Anyone who wants to take the Purification Rundown must first pass a medical exam done by a standard medical doctor. This would tend to weed out the people with heart conditions, high blood pressure, and wonky livers, who could not do the Purif. safely. It doesn't stop all the unqualified from taking the program, unfortunately.

The claim of odd-colored sweat has proven to be hokum? I've seen it. My sweat had black specks in it when I did the Purif. Sometimes it reeked of chlorine (I used to spend my summers in a chlorinated swimming pool.) For a whole day I smelled like a sickroom because some medication I had taken years ago was purging out in my sweat. You didn't mention the reddening that the niacin causes, but a person's skin does really redden in a pattern matching the form of whatever swimsuit one wore at the time one was sunburned. I used to wear brass-rimmed spectacles. Where the brass had been in contact with my skin, green sweat came out, a product of traces of base metal.

It is one of those things that must be seen to be believed, I'm afraid.

Did you know someone who did the Purif and had a bad effect from it?

[MissDorfl]

Tachikoma,

Anyone who wants to take the Purification Rundown must first pass a medical exam done by a standard medical doctor. This would tend to weed out the people with heart conditions, high blood pressure, and wonky livers, who could not do the Purif. safely. It doesn't stop all the unqualified from taking the program, unfortunately.

The question is: do people who want to do the Purification RD go to non-Scientology doctors or Scientology doctors?

Have you got any statistics on that?

The claim of odd-colored sweat has proven to be hokum? I've seen it. My sweat had black specks in it when I did the Purif. Sometimes it reeked of chlorine (I used to spend my summers in a chlorinated swimming pool.) For a whole day I smelled like a sickroom because some medication I had taken years ago was purging out in my sweat. You didn't mention the reddening that the niacin causes, but a person's skin does really redden in a pattern matching the form of whatever swimsuit one wore at the time one was sunburned. I used to wear brass-rimmed spectacles. Where the brass had been in contact with my skin, green sweat came out, a product of traces of base metal.

It is one of those things that must be seen to be believed, I'm afraid.

But why is it that only Scientologists seem to notice that effect? Going to the sauna (or the sweat lodge, or the hammam or the banya, for that matter) is an old, yet popular, world-wide activity, and still the phenomenon of odd-coloured sweat or the effect of sweating out the evil toxins has never been significantly noted.

Which is why I would like to see a genuine scientific study - with peer-review, double-blind and all that jazz - of the Purif RD.

Did you know someone who did the Purif and had a bad effect from it?

Anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid.


Barbz,

Mr. Krassel, I think is, Cornelius Krasel.

And Tigger is right, if you didn't give a F*** about Tonei, why did you keep needling him?

[Tigger]

If Narconon works, where is the peer review (by doctors and scientists) and the double blind studies that say it works?

Is there any evidence that it "works" other than testimony by Scientoloigsts that it "works"?

How many of the "clients" for whom it worked became Scientologists?

How many of Narconon employees are Scientologists
and are hired as staff immediately after they are "cured"?

How long did it "work"? i.e. how long did the "clean" stay "clean"?

Is Narconon's claimed cure rate based on those who complete the program or on everybody who signs up for the program?

Tigger

[Terril park]

Most of the toxins coming out of the body are excreted rather than sweated out If I recall correctly.

The most amazing example of what I suppose was the latter was someone given 8 rabies shots in various parts of the body as a child. She'd forgotten all about it until on the purif decades later each spot showed up as a red sore mark.

It is well known that certain pollutants, heavy metals for example are extremely difficult to get out of the body.

The purif is not "positively lethal " to the liver, or having done it twice I'd be dead.

You have an URL for the thorough medical debunking?

The purif in the COS is probably done at cost.

I don't know, but suspect the narconon program is relatively cheap. It consists of purif, TRs, upper indoc TRs and objectives. The latter alone, could take 200 hours. Plus their may well need to be PTS handlings also. And one is dealing with the most difficult people there are to help. I believe full board is also supplied?

It is a weak argument against narconon that it creates scientologists. Its
to my mind a great pity that the horrific reputation of the COS results in the program not being universally accepted. Even COS acknowledges this by trying to keep the connection hidden.

Sauna's and turkish baths as health promoters probably go back to pre history. The value of detox is now common currency even for those who are not addicts, and you nearest supermarket is selling products with this as a marketing claim.

Probably the COS is rather lax on medical pre examination. They may use chiropracters for example, and I'm not sure if thats a problem.

Unfortunately one can't trust COS PR. Where did you get your figure from Barb?

I'm in the UK, and am not familiar, but have been told that Narconon programs are approved in some states. What control or funding does that imply?

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net

[oudeis]

The question is: do people who want to do the Purification RD go to non-Scientology doctors or Scientology doctors?

Have you got any statistics on that?

The doctor who did my pre-Purif. medical exam was a non-chiropractor non-Scientologist. He seemed curious about the program and wanted to know why so many people were doing it. I don't have any statistics on how many people get their pre-Purif. exam from non-CoS doctors, but Scientologist doctors are a rarity except in LA and Clearwater, so I'd have to guess that very few pre-Purif. exams are done by CoS doctors.

But why is it that only Scientologists seem to notice that effect? Going to the sauna (or the sweat lodge, or the hammam or the banya, for that matter) is an old, yet popular, world-wide activity, and still the phenomenon of odd-coloured sweat or the effect of sweating out the evil toxins has never been significantly noted.

Going to the hammam or sauna or sweat lodge is not the same as doing the Purification RD. A person doing the Purif. takes (gradually increasing) doses of niacin (not niacinamide), vitamins, walnut oil and other oils, and cell salts, each day. They are required to eat well so as to cushion the stomach from any irritation that the vitamins might cause. They might spend hours in the sauna each day, interspersed with vigorous exercise. If any part of this program were omitted, done out of sequence, or altered (for instance, perhaps by substituting niacinamide for niacin), then the program would be unlikely to get the hoped-for result.
There was a girl who had been on the Purif for three weeks at my old org with no results; nothing was happening. I watched her as she did her exercise. She had set the exercise bike to 'zero resistance' and was sitting there with a little smile on her face as she went through the motions of doing exercise, exerting no effort. Never broke a sweat. I let the I/C know what was going on, and the girl was informed that she needed to do actual aerobic exercise to get any result. Afterwards she did begin to exercise in earnest, she began to get changes and results. I've never understood why someone would waste money and feign to do a Rundown the way that girl did; perhaps someone else was paying for her Purif., so she did not care what happened.

Yes, what I posted is anecdotal evidence. But if enough credible people tell you that the same damn thing happened in their anecdotes, then maybe there is something real happening there.

[Tachikoma]

Most of the toxins coming out of the body are excreted rather than sweated out If I recall correctly.

Sweat is a form of excretion. In fact, so is breathing.

It is well known that certain pollutants, heavy metals for example are extremely difficult to get out of the body.

The people of Minimata are very aware of this, I believe. if you change the term "extremely difficult" to "impossible", you will have a better grasp on heavy metal poisoning.

The purif is not "positively lethal " to the liver, or having done it twice I'd be dead.

No, Terril, you are oversimplifying. That thought subscribes to the "fast food" school of thought, where everyone expects something to happen right now. It does not work that way. Damage is cumulative. This is why the New York firefighters who were hooked into purif treatments have been stridently encouraged to have their liver function checked at specific intervals over a specific period of years.

[Dr.]Le Riche (expert in epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Toronto) warned that high doses of niacin may cause liver damage. He called the claim that the Purification Rundown may help get rid of radiation "absolute and complete nonsense."

You have an URL for the thorough medical debunking?

Of course: http://tiny.pl/w47b

Just as a side note, Terril, could you please do a little of your own groundwork before you ask for cites? The above info comes from a source that not only you should be very familiar with, but also came up as the 4th or 5th entry on the first page of a Google search using the search parameters "Purification rundown negative effects". If you are unable to obtain data on your own after searching, then feel free to ask for sources. My time is somewhat limited every day, and I do not have much to be chasing down such information for other people who are quite capable of doing so themselves. It strikes me as rather... out-exchange. Thank you.

According to Dr. Harding le Riche, an expert in epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Toronto and author of The Complete Family Guide To Nutrition And Meal Planning, claims that the Purification Rundown can cleanse the body of drugs and chemicals "have no basis in scientific literature."

"There is no experimental evidence to show that what they claim is actually possible," said le Riche, who has studied and written extensively about the properties of niacin and other vitamins.

The purif in the COS is probably done at cost.

Well, the CoS program is not what is under scrutiny here, it is Narconon. To wit:

"Costs of the treatment offered at Narconon can range up $6,000, and the way in which it is used has come under the scrutiny of the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons."

I don't know, but suspect the narconon program is relatively cheap. It consists of purif, TRs, upper indoc TRs and objectives. The latter alone, could take 200 hours. Plus their may well need to be PTS handlings also. And one is dealing with the most difficult people there are to help. I believe full board is also supplied?

$6000 to me is far from "cheap". Especially when it has not been subjected to proper studies of the type that Tigger has already mentioned. You may wish to read, again, the tribulations of Greg Breha(sp?) who has been fighting for a full refund of about, if I recall, $16,000. His story is very easy to find on ARS and some of it has made it onto OC.As for board being supplied, that is fine and good, but board does not include rooming. That would be "room and board". Again the Greg Breha story addresses this also.

It is a weak argument against narconon that it creates scientologists. Its to my mind a great pity that the horrific reputation of the COS results in the program not being universally accepted. Even COS acknowledges this by trying to keep the connection hidden.

CoS downplays the connection because people are getting wise to the fact that CoS is, in fact, a cult with cultish behavior and cult-like recruiting methods. I am sure Patty P., if she could be with us, would have something very enlightening to say to you regarding your supposition. She did, after all, used to run a Narconon. You will find her story regarding her time in "bringing up the stats" of her location on the lermanet.com website, which, if I recall correctly (and although I am not OT, my recall has always been pretty good), included a stat set for bringing in raw meat via the Narconon program, which was one of her priorities if you actually care to look. She also has some very interesting insights as to the actual "success" rates and how they were counted in regards to stat pushing.

Sauna's and turkish baths as health promoters probably go back to pre history. The value of detox is now common currency even for those who are not addicts, and you nearest supermarket is selling products with this as a marketing claim.

The difference is that anything making such a claim, sold in a supermarket, apothecary or the like, must quantify that claim with the governing body of the province in which said claim is issued. They must show, with things like field trials, double-blind testing and the like, that the product can and will deliver on claims if used correctly by the end user. This can take years. As for your mention of Turkish baths, Swedish saunas and, I shall add, the venerable Japanese O-Furo hot baths do not require gradually overdosing oneself with the A-Bomb equivalent of Niacin, MagCal, Castor oil and the like. It is not required to enjoy the benefits of these institutions, and additionally, you do not have to pay upwards of $6000 in order to use the facilities.

Probably the COS is rather lax on medical pre examination. They may use chiropracters for example, and I'm not sure if thats a problem.

There are incidences of those wishing to enter the purif who are vetted by Scientology doctors. This, to me, introduces a massive conflict of interest, especially when said doctor is involved in the CoS which is a stat-driven entity, what repercussions may he or she face if she fails to send enough clients through the program? If we wish to "suspect" things, as you put it, I would also "suspect" that perhaps said doctor is getting a kickback for putting X amount of raw meat through the program or is perhaps rewarded with a reduction in the cost of his or her auditing. This would be ample enough for some doctors to fudge results, especially in the borderline cases where the blood pressure is a "little high", but what the heck? Oh, look! Never mind....

Dr. Paul Jaconello, medical director of the Lafayette Health Centre, said the Purification Rundown offered at his clinic costs $2,500 for "as long as it takes to work."

Clients who decide to enter any Purif program must first have a complete medical checkup, usually done at the health centre. While fees for the Purif program itself are not covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan, the cost of the mandatory physical examination is covered.

Jaconello said he also receives a commission from the Church of Scientology if his patients buy Scientology materials.

"But it would be a conflict of interest for me to retain that," he added, "so I redonate it to the Church of Scientology or to Narconon."

Now then...

Chiropractors must take a minimum module of basic human physiology in order to enter their field. The competence required in the base training levels and, if they would suffice enough to apply to the purif vetting process, would be very dependent on what questions and requisites are on the form that Narconon sends with the patient. They may be enough, they may not. However, one does not often see chiropractors sending their patients for things like blood tests or biopsies. These things are actually critical to test liver and spleen functions as well as perhaps detect myriad other negative indicators lurking in the shadows that the purif may exacerbate. That would be a real problem.

I'm in the UK, and am not familiar, but have been told that Narconon programs are approved in some states. What control or funding does that imply?

The real crux of the matter, is for how much longer will Narconon be tolerated by the states they have infiltrated? California gave Narconon the heave-ho just a couple of years back. Part of the overall problem, however, is that the school board bigwigs will sit there, not their heads enthusiastically and not do any background research, because how it is being represented to them is all so "reasonable" and looks "logical" on the surface. It is not the fact that it is snake oil, it is how the snake oil is presented. Like the old saying goes; "mutton dressed up as lamb".

[Barbz]

But sometimes, people quit without any assistance at all.
10%.

Narconon's real success rate is around 2% if you understand how they manipulated the data based upon one very small group of Narconon clients in Spain.

Leave in the dropouts: 2% success
Omit the dropouts: 70% success rate

The math doesn't lie. And if you quit by yourself, you don't wind up a Scientologist at the end.

[Barbz]

So, if you didn't "care", barbz, why didn't you just simply ignore him?

Tigger

P.S. I don't "care" for your avatar, but I'm going to ignore it.

By ignore it, of course you mean, comment and hide.
At least it's not a Disney infringement...

[Barbz]

The question is: do people who want to do the Purification RD go to non-Scientology doctors or Scientology doctors?

Have you got any statistics on that?



But why is it that only Scientologists seem to notice that effect? Going to the sauna (or the sweat lodge, or the hammam or the banya, for that matter) is an old, yet popular, world-wide activity, and still the phenomenon of odd-coloured sweat or the effect of sweating out the evil toxins has never been significantly noted.

Which is why I would like to see a genuine scientific study - with peer-review, double-blind and all that jazz - of the Purif RD.




Anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid.


Barbz,

Mr. Krassel, I think is, Cornelius Krasel.

And Tigger is right, if you didn't give a F*** about Tonei, why did you keep needling him?

ARS is an open forum. Needling self centered attention ho's amuses me.

Back to Narconon. The poster you're responding to demonstrates how little thought he gave to the results of the Purif. Black specks might just be poor laundering. However, he is able to relate exactly what causes these results as explained to him by Narconon people. Were he to actually research the medical aspect, he might wind up feeling kind of hoodwinked.

[Tigger]

I was making a point, barbz. I was using your avatar as an example. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything about it. I could say more about it but I won't. That doesn't mean I'm "hiding".

IMO those who needle are self-centered attention ho's and contribute nothing except more spam to make a.r.s. more unreadable and make critics look like ******* *******. (both male and female)

Tigger