Help me sort a few things out here. Okay?

[ensifer]

As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

At the risk of being overly critical of people who I agree with... in large part anyway... I'm inclined to think most of what I've read over the last two decades hasn't really accomplished much in whatever the collective goal of the anti-Scientology movement might be.

Case in point - Marty Rathbun's blog. Here we have this guy who admits to heinous crimes and deeds against Scientologists all while serving at the whim of the guy who seemingly is universally reviled out here. So he blows and then resurfaces as not only an outspoken critic, but also as an opinion leader in the anti-Scientology internet universe.

Which is fine. I'm not posting this to be critical of Rathbun, but sheesh... the shit the guy admits to is pretty serious. And now he's a hero? Okay. So I read his blog pretty much every week, as time allows, and a pattern emerges: it's all pretty much the same. Day in and day out it's this super-secret cadre of RTC operatives working under orders from the COB with the intent of wreaking havoc in Rathbun's life and thwarting him from doing whatever it is he is planning on doing that will bring down the CST, RTC, CofS and all the super suppressives who have stolen the "tech" away from whoever owned it to begin with.

And this has been going on now for two years? Or more?

So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

Okay. I was content to just read what the guy has to say and it's this daily/weekly report on all the failed efforts of Miscavige and his henchmen to put a stop to Rathbun. Talking to his wife's co-workers, ordering pizza and having it delivered, hacking into SABRE (airline reservations) threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. I'm open enough to want to know more specifically how he can prove that these assaults are currently taking place but skeptical enough to not wholly believe them until he provides something more than just his words and some videos of the PI's who followed him around a couple of years ago.

I don't doubt for a second that Miscavige spent money and allocated personnel to try and dead agent Rathbun or mitigate any potential effect he might have on the CofS. What I can't quite get a grasp of is exactly what threat does Rathbun represent to the CofS? I mean other than the fact that he writes almost daily that he is a valid threat... what exactly is the danger he represents? He's already gone on TV and been interviewed extensively that he willing (and apparently gleefully) beat the dog tar out of people on command. He admits to a ton of evil shit that theoretically ought to have gone a long way towards breaking the allegations against DM and the CofS wide-open.

But no such thing has happened.

So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Having been "put in my place" before by Rathbun on his own blog, I decided I would really like to know if the photos and allegations had been sourced. After all, what would be the point of keeping the data secret? All that does is extend the servitude of the RPF slaves and give Miscavige more time to acquire and spend Scientology money.

Makes sense, right? If I'm wrong, tell me... I have a tough hide.

So I put this comment on Rathbun's blog:

As I asked before on another of your posts, I just want to know the sources that document this hanger and decorations were built by SO staff at no expense to Cruise. I’m also curious about the office you displayed in the blog a few days ago.

In addition, where did the images come from?

It’s certainly not my desire to try and debunk or disparage what you say here, but I’ve been active on the internet since 1990 and if I’ve learned one thing – it’s that anyone can say anything and whether it’s a true thing or not, some will be inclined to believe it with no need for sourcing of the claim and some (like me) will take things more seriously when hard data backs up the claim.

Overall, I am more inclined to believe that Miscavige and Cruise have a mutual back-scratching relationship. I don’t know Cruise personally so I’m at a disadvantage there. I have met Miscavige on several occasions and had a very brief, very intense event involving him… the San Francisco Mission Holders Conference in 1982. So not much would surprise me regarding his unethical and criminal activities. But, like most, I don’t like surprises. As much as I’d like to forward some of what you claim to dozens of people and family that are still heavily involved with Scientology, I personally need to be able to back up what I reveal to them. If I decide to push them, that is. Without hard facts any attempt on my part to use these claims to influence my friends will result in a “he said – she said” stalemate.

I do understand that your stance is that revealing sources would have some negative impact on the lives of those sources… but without knowing more about how this data gets out while actual people like Heber can’t get out creates a bit of a mystery for me and makes posts like this little more than a rap session where everyone agrees how terrible things are.

Help me out here Marty? Source this stuff and let some of us pop a few more people out into the real world.


Understanding that Rathbun owns the blog and that he has a dedicated following of people who take anything he says at face value, I didn't want to appear critical of him. I've seen what happens when someone criticizes the owner and respected creator of blogs as popular as Rathbun's. I also hoped that he might think about actually using this information he claims is real to help free some of those slaves.

He responded thusly:

Sorry pal. If you need more than is already out there – and most particularly on this blog, including its links where you can see the sources under questioning – you may as well wait for an enchanted fairy to come around and sprinkle wake-up dust on those you want to pop out into the real world.

Uh, okay. I'll be the first to admit I haven't taken the time to read every post on his blog and watch every video or click on every link. Although, a lot of his clickable links just take you to other posts on his blog. What I was trying to convey is that just throwing a bunch of images on a blog and claiming that Scientology slave labor built the place and paid for it doesn't make it so.

That's why I wanted credible sourcing of the claims.

So how about you people here? Some of you appear to have spent quite a bit more time researching and reading about these issues. So I'm soliciting advice and even opinion here.

Why haven't any of these "horrid" revelations ended up in criminal charges being brought against the CofS?

If there are reliable sources inside upper Scn management with access to incriminating documentation... why are they sending it to Rathbun instead of turning it over to the proper state and federal authorities so action can be taken to free people like Heber and the reportedly hundreds of others who are virtual slaves to the Sea Org?

And the big one... for me anyway... other than the occasional TV program like the upcoming BBC Panorama, is there any reliable, funded and competent group or organization that is actively pursuing bringing an end to such things as the Sea Org, the RTC, the RPF and further... to take all this supposedly leaked information and get Miscavige prosecuted and the funds he has apparently purloined returned to ethical and fully-vetted replacements for him in upper Scientology management.

Feel free to direct my attention anywhere it hasn't been sent already. I'm a quick study but I've already read the generalities and the complaints. Send me to where I need to go to actually help do something.

[AnonyMary]

Could you just write your exact questions? There are quite a few in there, including whatever it was you wanted Marty to document more.

You are a fool to think that anyone is going to tell you exact specifics of who certain documents or photos were obtained from. The safety of SO members, past or present, is obviously senior to satisfying the curiosity of some.

And by the way, Marty has confessed nothing but 2 things out of thousands of crimes he was a part of with Scientology, Miscavige and crew: The ordering the 'make it go away' of of page 5 Lisa McPhenson logs, and the admission that he, too, hit people like DM did, though not as many times ( )

[FinallyMe]

I'd comment that the purpose of the site would tell you what you can expect on the site. A web site, of itself, doesn't do much -- people do. Have you read on this forum all that has been accomplished by a relatively few Australian ex-Scientologists?

Not that I am a Rathbun supporter in any fashion, but I would seriously doubt that his web site has any purpose related to wiping out the Church of Scientology, so I would not expect any flurry of damning disclosures from it.

Possibly "Why We Protest" might come closer to being what you are looking for in the way of "do something."

[Type4_PTS]

As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

ensifer, if you read more on ESMB you'll see whats come out of some of this internet activity. Many many people have been helped in their recovery from the CoS as well as many other purposes accomplished. I would have to completely disagree with you that not much has been accomplished over the past two decades.

Also I wouldn't go by the number of follow-up comments made on a thread to determine the level of impact. Look at the number of views. For example, this thread - Panorama: Secrets of Scientology (Showing BBC1 28th Sept 2010 9pm UK) from a little over a week ago has 75 replies. But at the time I'm writing this it has 4249 views.

[ensifer]

Could you just write your exact questions? There are quite a few in there, including whatever it was you wanted Marty to document more.

1. What actual documentation exists that could be used to attract federal and state law enforcement into pursuing the release of the RPF captives.

2. If CofS funds are being used to build expensive airplane hangers for people like Cruise, and documents exist proving that, and if there are disaffected management personnel who have the ability to get this information to Rathbun... then what is keeping the same people from forwarding the data to state or federal AG's?

You are a fool to think that anyone is going to tell you exact specifics of who certain documents or photos were obtained from. The safety of SO members, past or present, is obviously senior to satisfying the curiosity of some.

Past ex-SO? What is the threat? Rathbun seems to be doing fine with his auditing practice down in Texas. So are the lives of hundreds of other ex-SO and auditors who daily practice their versions of Scientology without their lives being threatened.

I'd be more concerned about present staff but even then, except for the notable and horrific cases of some staff who were allowed to die and high profile cases like McPherson... is there an understanding among those 'out here' that the CofS would actually kill staff who leaked incriminating documents to authorities?

And I am not being sarcastic. The simple facts are that anyone being held against their will is having a felony committed against them. If you block my driveway and keep me from leaving my own property you can be prosecuted for false imprisonment. Wouldn't the same insiders who provide Rathbun with his teaser photos and secret directives also have access to the materials that could end this very quickly and free hundreds of mind slaves from their prisons?

And by the way, Marty has confessed nothing but 2 things out of thousands of crimes he was a part of with Scientology, Miscavige and crew: The ordering the 'make it go away' of of page 5 Lisa McPhenson logs, and the admission that he, too, hit people like DM did, though not as many times ( )

Hah. I won't argue with that.

[ensifer]

I'd comment that the purpose of the site would tell you what you can expect on the site. A web site, of itself, doesn't do much -- people do. Have you read on this forum all that has been accomplished by a relatively few Australian ex-Scientologists?

Agreed. I have no real interest in watching hours of youtube videos but I've read enough of the summaries to feel quite a bit of admiration for the events down there.

Good stuff.

Oh yeah... and if you're suggesting that Rathbun is really just working up a rep so he can get customers then I'd admit that was my initial impression when I first came across his blog. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on that count because if he has the goods and ends up using them effectively to bring this train-wreck to an end, then he'll have as much admiration from me as I have for the Aussies who are accomplishing something of value.

[Markus]

As a more or less casual reader of various web sites that are populated by ex-Scientologists and people who are just opposed to Scientology in principle, it's often difficult to get a firm grip on exactly what (if anything) will come of all this internet activity. For the most part the impression I get is that the more active sites just report information and then there are anywhere from a few to a few hundred follow-up comments before the information gets dated and then buried in the flurry of new reports of further transgressions.

At the risk of being overly critical of people who I agree with... in large part anyway... I'm inclined to think most of what I've read over the last two decades hasn't really accomplished much in whatever the collective goal of the anti-Scientology movement might be.

Case in point - Marty Rathbun's blog. Here we have this guy who admits to heinous crimes and deeds against Scientologists all while serving at the whim of the guy who seemingly is universally reviled out here. So he blows and then resurfaces as not only an outspoken critic, but also as an opinion leader in the anti-Scientology internet universe.

Which is fine. I'm not posting this to be critical of Rathbun, but sheesh... the shit the guy admits to is pretty serious. And now he's a hero? Okay. So I read his blog pretty much every week, as time allows, and a pattern emerges: it's all pretty much the same. Day in and day out it's this super-secret cadre of RTC operatives working under orders from the COB with the intent of wreaking havoc in Rathbun's life and thwarting him from doing whatever it is he is planning on doing that will bring down the CST, RTC, CofS and all the super suppressives who have stolen the "tech" away from whoever owned it to begin with.

And this has been going on now for two years? Or more?

So about a month or two back Rathbun posted a supposedly secret directive on his blog that was highly incriminating of the current management. I was amazed he had a copy of a supposedly secret internal document and the only possible source would be some upper management person. So I posted a comment asking him directly to source the document. He responded that doing so would compromise the person who provided it.

Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. If there is a disaffected senior management person providing Rathbun with confidential directives then why haven't they taken what they know and scurried off to help put an end to the criminal enterprise? And why hasn't Rathbun done for this person what he did for himself? Fled to freedom.

Okay. I was content to just read what the guy has to say and it's this daily/weekly report on all the failed efforts of Miscavige and his henchmen to put a stop to Rathbun. Talking to his wife's co-workers, ordering pizza and having it delivered, hacking into SABRE (airline reservations) threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. I'm open enough to want to know more specifically how he can prove that these assaults are currently taking place but skeptical enough to not wholly believe them until he provides something more than just his words and some videos of the PI's who followed him around a couple of years ago.

I don't doubt for a second that Miscavige spent money and allocated personnel to try and dead agent Rathbun or mitigate any potential effect he might have on the CofS. What I can't quite get a grasp of is exactly what threat does Rathbun represent to the CofS? I mean other than the fact that he writes almost daily that he is a valid threat... what exactly is the danger he represents? He's already gone on TV and been interviewed extensively that he willing (and apparently gleefully) beat the dog tar out of people on command. He admits to a ton of evil shit that theoretically ought to have gone a long way towards breaking the allegations against DM and the CofS wide-open.

But no such thing has happened.

So last week Rathbun is back on his kind of weird fascination with the Tom Cruise-David Miscavige love fest and he posts a bunch of images of an office that is allegedly Cruise's and allegedly paid for and hand-built by SO RPF people. Then he follows up this week with more images of the airplane hanger the office is attached to and states it was paid for and built by slave Sea Org labor as a gift from Miscavige to Cruise. Damn! Those were some pretty incriminating photos if they were documented with credible data that RPF people did the work as slaves and that CofS paid for the materials, engineering and so forth. This kind of stuff would be absolutely explosive.

Having been "put in my place" before by Rathbun on his own blog, I decided I would really like to know if the photos and allegations had been sourced. After all, what would be the point of keeping the data secret? All that does is extend the servitude of the RPF slaves and give Miscavige more time to acquire and spend Scientology money.

Makes sense, right? If I'm wrong, tell me... I have a tough hide.

So I put this comment on Rathbun's blog:

As I asked before on another of your posts, I just want to know the sources that document this hanger and decorations were built by SO staff at no expense to Cruise. I’m also curious about the office you displayed in the blog a few days ago.

In addition, where did the images come from?

It’s certainly not my desire to try and debunk or disparage what you say here, but I’ve been active on the internet since 1990 and if I’ve learned one thing – it’s that anyone can say anything and whether it’s a true thing or not, some will be inclined to believe it with no need for sourcing of the claim and some (like me) will take things more seriously when hard data backs up the claim.

Overall, I am more inclined to believe that Miscavige and Cruise have a mutual back-scratching relationship. I don’t know Cruise personally so I’m at a disadvantage there. I have met Miscavige on several occasions and had a very brief, very intense event involving him… the San Francisco Mission Holders Conference in 1982. So not much would surprise me regarding his unethical and criminal activities. But, like most, I don’t like surprises. As much as I’d like to forward some of what you claim to dozens of people and family that are still heavily involved with Scientology, I personally need to be able to back up what I reveal to them. If I decide to push them, that is. Without hard facts any attempt on my part to use these claims to influence my friends will result in a “he said – she said” stalemate.

I do understand that your stance is that revealing sources would have some negative impact on the lives of those sources… but without knowing more about how this data gets out while actual people like Heber can’t get out creates a bit of a mystery for me and makes posts like this little more than a rap session where everyone agrees how terrible things are.

Help me out here Marty? Source this stuff and let some of us pop a few more people out into the real world.


Understanding that Rathbun owns the blog and that he has a dedicated following of people who take anything he says at face value, I didn't want to appear critical of him. I've seen what happens when someone criticizes the owner and respected creator of blogs as popular as Rathbun's. I also hoped that he might think about actually using this information he claims is real to help free some of those slaves.

He responded thusly:

Sorry pal. If you need more than is already out there – and most particularly on this blog, including its links where you can see the sources under questioning – you may as well wait for an enchanted fairy to come around and sprinkle wake-up dust on those you want to pop out into the real world.

Uh, okay. I'll be the first to admit I haven't taken the time to read every post on his blog and watch every video or click on every link. Although, a lot of his clickable links just take you to other posts on his blog. What I was trying to convey is that just throwing a bunch of images on a blog and claiming that Scientology slave labor built the place and paid for it doesn't make it so.

That's why I wanted credible sourcing of the claims.

So how about you people here? Some of you appear to have spent quite a bit more time researching and reading about these issues. So I'm soliciting advice and even opinion here.

Why haven't any of these "horrid" revelations ended up in criminal charges being brought against the CofS?

If there are reliable sources inside upper Scn management with access to incriminating documentation... why are they sending it to Rathbun instead of turning it over to the proper state and federal authorities so action can be taken to free people like Heber and the reportedly hundreds of others who are virtual slaves to the Sea Org?

And the big one... for me anyway... other than the occasional TV program like the upcoming BBC Panorama, is there any reliable, funded and competent group or organization that is actively pursuing bringing an end to such things as the Sea Org, the RTC, the RPF and further... to take all this supposedly leaked information and get Miscavige prosecuted and the funds he has apparently purloined returned to ethical and fully-vetted replacements for him in upper Scientology management.

Feel free to direct my attention anywhere it hasn't been sent already. I'm a quick study but I've already read the generalities and the complaints. Send me to where I need to go to actually help do something.

Hello "ensifer",

first of all welcome to this board.
To understand why it is not so easy to do something against this criminal organization you should read this:

Bavaria: "Scientology is an anti-constitutional movement with a crimogenic structure"
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=19028

and this: Scientology: "Soul Hackers"
http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index...d=915&Itemid=9

In fact as long as you are a brainwashed Scientologist you will tell any lie to protect your "Church" - you are not even able to look at striking facts. It is like if this crazy old man (Hubbard) has erased you as a free thinking person perfectly and is sitting in your head telling you what to see and not to see - what to do and not to do. AND they (The Church of Scientology) have money - lots of money - with money you can buy lawyers - real good lawyers. Having good lawyers and hundrets of people lying for you it is easy to pervert the truth - again and again, and again.

Here is the story of my brother Uwe in the Sea Organization:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=14804

I know this is all a lot to read - thats the next problem in bringing the truth about Scientology to the surface - it is not easy to understand how this "Human Machine" is working - it is quite complicated to understand and not easy to explain to people who have never had any contact with this criminal organization.

And I would say that you found the right place to get answers to all your questions right here on ESMB.
But it takes a little bit time and patience to really get these answers.
I hope I could help you with it.

Best wishes
Markus

[Lurker5]

This, what Marcus says - as to why it is so hard to get anything ON scn/cos, or get anyone to step up out of anonymity. BRAINWASHING and FEAR - and there is reason to be afraid.

Also, I am confused - if you had a bit of contact with dm back in 82 re: mission holders rape, how come you know so little about the innard workings? OR do I have that wrong? Were you a Mission Holder - or at a Mission, or someone in your family/connection at a Mission? You've left me scratching my head. You seem to know so much, and yet so little . . . ?
Huh?

Or did I read you wrong?

[Sign of Success]

Hi Ensifer,
As you can see no one in here is actually answer your rational and legitimate questions.
If M.R. don't want to answer you, do not expect other people will do!
The basic reason why they don't answer it's "they don't know as well"

All I know it's what this card's castle is made of.

[Markus]

Hi Ensifer,
As you can see no one in here is actually answer your rational and legitimate questions.
If M.R. don't want to answer you, do not expect other people will do!
The basic reason why they don't answer it's "they don't know as well"

All I know it's what this card's castle is made of.

Is there anybody "talking"?

Do you feel good to lie to people in order to protect your criminal organization?

Best
Markus