ESMB isn't the soft landing it used to be for people getting out.

[Feral]

After seeing the cynicism that Ken and Yvonne's letter got I have to say that I think ESMB has lost it's way.

It's now a heresy to say that you got gains in the CofS now and posting anything pro or even impartial has the risks of being excommunicated from the exes here. Or at least it risks becoming the brunt of their jeers and lampooning.

Fuck it, it might be unpopular that I state this but it has to stop or ESMB will betray it's own purpose.

A reminder;
This message board is for ex Scientologists to freely discuss mutual experiences in Scientology. It covers such topics as L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige and current management, auditing and training, Ethics tech and its application, OSA, fair game, Clear & OT levels, Freewinds, and recovering from a cult experience.

The black and white anti Scientology thinking that currently dominates this board will stop people coming here. People like the Schicks and Karen no.1.

If ESMB was this anti when I got out I wouldn't have come here and I don't think Carmel or Panda would have either. I know Scooter would have given it the big miss.

The thing is people like the Schicks and Karen are the ones that will lead the way out of the CofS and we can't even let them come out at their own pace or keep that which they feel they need to.

Seriously, when did we become such arseholes?

Do we want all the newly outs to bypass us in favour of more pro tech boards?

[Stat]

Thank you, Kevin.

Most of us lived through some very unpleasant shit, to put it softly.
But we don't have to follow the stereotypical pattern of many internet boards
where people talk shit just because they can.

Talking shit is ok in my book, btw, as long as it's a good humor, but we happen to be a part of the entirely new kind of forum.

It's a bit more then just discussing, sharing or talking s***.

People come here in a very vulnerable states at times.

My point is that we have to keep it in mind. Always.

Peace.

[Kookaburra]

Well said Kevin...and Stat.

I just had a similar rant on the Ken and Yvonne thread. Here is part of what I wrote in case someone doesn't get that far on that thread.

Originally Posted by A.K. Myers View Post
Maybe somebody should repost the gradient scale of ex-$cientologists.

http://www.lermanet.com/8steps.html

I'm glad you posted this. I was just about to go off and hunt for it when I got to your post.

This is a brilliant observation and I have seen it hold true. It DOES take some time. When it doesn't take time, you get someone who just makes a radical swing, and can and often does swing back just as fast from the momentum. They are polarized. No shades of grey, just black and white. Witness Aaron Saxton.

Ken and Yvonne have obviously done some honest observation and evaluation. And they have enough integrity to act on what they observed, despite the cost. And there is enormous cost to people leaving Scientology, especially after so many years. They will be shunned by their friends. They lose all their business contacts, their employees, quite possible family members. They deserve a heap of support from the ex community. And they will find their way through the rest of the morass, hopefully quicker and easier with our support and input.

Here is Arnie's 8 Steps in full. Some people need to have a good look.

Title: 9 steps out of Scientology
Author: Arnie Lerma
Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:01:27 -0700


I was in the cult and on staff for 10 years... here are the stages I have seen... as one exits the 'Hubbardian' mind control program....

1) There is something wrong here, if this is so great, then
why is (______) going on?

[ insert whatever atrocity you have recently witnessed ]

2) The guys at the top must be crazy

3) Miscavige and crew are evil demons from another dimension
[ or something similar ]

4) Hubbard went crazy at the end .....

5) Hubbard went crazy in 1966

6) Hubbard was mad from the start.

7) This whole thing is a complete fraud

8) my god, its a criminal organization... with criminal convictions
all over the world... and it was only about money

9) realization that THERE ARE NO OT's THERE!

Originally Posted by Emma View Post
I don't care if people leave after 6 months or 30 years, or if they are high flyers or street sweepers. What bothers me is that when people do leave, if they are are at all still interested in the tech or admire Hubbard, they are, more & more, trashed here to varying degrees.

I started ESMB because this kind of behaviour was rampant on OCMB and I wanted a SAFE place for exes to land.

There is a difference between questioning someone's beliefs and engaging them in conversations that get them to look at ALL the facts, and just writing them off in the first 5 minutes because they are still caught in the trap.

Granted, the persons in the OP aren't even posting here. But they probably won't now. In years gone by they would have. We've had plenty of fence sitters arrive on ESMB in the past and through intelligent dialogue and kindness have provided a platform where they can look and read and ask questions in a safe environment and get out of the trap.

It's not really like that much now, much to my regret.

I have noticed the same thing. And it is not good. There is a great deal of value in the diversity of viewpoint on ESMB. But the personal remarks attached to a differing opinion are not valuable at all. They are actually quite detrimental, and they definitely don't make newbies feel welcome.

I think we need to take a good look at this and handle it NOW. The CoS is not long for this world. In the not so distant future you will have one of those boring weeks when NOTHING happens, then you will feel a great THUD and the shock waves will reverberate as the monster topples with its nose into the ground. There will be carnage and they will be hurting and they will need help. I think we had better be here and be ready.

[Stat]

Well said Kevin...and Stat.

I just had a similar rant on the Ken and Yvonne thread. Here is part of what I wrote in case someone doesn't get that far on that thread.




I'm glad you posted this. I was just about to go off and hunt for it when I got to your post.

This is a brilliant observation and I have seen it hold true. It DOES take some time. When it doesn't take time, you get someone who just makes a radical swing, and can and often does swing back just as fast from the momentum. They are polarized. No shades of grey, just black and white. Witness Aaron Saxton.

Ken and Yvonne have obviously done some honest observation and evaluation. And they have enough integrity to act on what they observed, despite the cost. And there is enormous cost to people leaving Scientology, especially after so many years. They will be shunned by their friends. They lose all their business contacts, their employees, quite possible family members. They deserve a heap of support from the ex community. And they will find their way through the rest of the morass, hopefully quicker and easier with our support and input.

Here is Arnie's 8 Steps in full. Some people need to have a good look.







I have noticed the same thing. And it is not good. There is a great deal of value in the diversity of viewpoint on ESMB. But the personal remarks attached to a differing opinion are not valuable at all. They are actually quite detrimental, and they definitely don't make newbies feel welcome.

I think we need to take a good look at this and handle it NOW. The CoS is not long for this world. In the not so distant future you will have one of those boring weeks when NOTHING happens, then you will feel a great THUD and the shock waves will reverberate as the monster topples with its nose into the ground. There will be carnage and they will be hurting and they will need help. I think we had better be here and be ready.

Thank you, Kooka. It's a whole new game. And it's simply about being human enough for empathy and true help.

[scooter]

Seriously I think it's plain bad manners - if you had a new guest drop in at your house, would you rant about their religious beliefs?

The anonymity of the net seems to be an invitation to some to drop any pretense of humanity. I know I'm speaking in generalities here but if you feel offended by this, look at your own actions before you rant at me.

Feral's right - if I'd received the same reaction to my Doubt formula that Ken and Yvonne got to theirs, I'd have never come near the place again. Mine was also put up by someone else and I watched to see how it was taken.

Here's the thread - have a look at how I was received back then:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8350

NOW go look at Mike's thread passing on Ken and Yvonne's formula.

[Student of Trinity]

Though I'm only here as an outside observer who was never in Scientology, I've been in some other comparable communities to ESMB, and I think I recognize a sort of life cycle transition in what people have been describing.

ESMB may simply be a victim of its own success. It gave a lot of new ex-Scientologists a place to meet others like themselves, as well as longer term critics and outsiders. Everyone shared their stories, found they had a lot in common, and drew strength and courage from the community. They became more confident as a result.

That's all great, of course, and I believe it was what the board was founded to achieve. But I expect that a lot of the confidence that was being gained was confidence in having a negative view of Scientology. So the more ESMB succeeded, the more it was populated with assertive critics of Scientology. Gradually ESMB morphs from a tentative huddle of people stumbling out of Scientology together, into a crowd of opinionated critics.

It could be that this development is inevitable and irreversible, and that the only way to recreate the old ESMB is to start a new board. Or maybe there can be a further development, whereby people begin to consciously rein in their criticism here, for the sake of uncertain newbies, and save their real opinions for other places. Or even just restrict them to certain sub-forums here, to keep the intro threads more welcoming.

[Chess]

If ESMB was this anti when I got out I wouldn't have come here and I don't think Carmel or Panda would have either. I know Scooter would have given it the big miss.

The thing is people like the Schicks and Karen are the ones that will lead the way out of the CofS and we can't even let them come out at their own pace or keep that which they feel they need to.

Seriously, when did we become such arseholes?

Do we want all the newly outs to bypass us in favour of more pro tech boards?

Indeed Kev - this board has become or is in big risk of becoming a 'rocky road to nowhere'. Good old fashion manners and decency have been pushed aside for hit first fastest, so it seems. It use to be a comfortable place to be, then again so was another group we used to know - then the arseholes took charge.

[Reasonable]

After seeing the cynicism that Ken and Yvonne's letter got I have to say that I think ESMB has lost it's way.

It's now a heresy to say that you got gains in the CofS now and posting anything pro or even impartial has the risks of being excommunicated from the exes here. Or at least it risks becoming the brunt of their jeers and lampooning.

Fuck it, it might be unpopular that I state this but it has to stop or ESMB will betray it's own purpose.

A reminder;
This message board is for ex Scientologists to freely discuss mutual experiences in Scientology. It covers such topics as L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige and current management, auditing and training, Ethics tech and its application, OSA, fair game, Clear & OT levels, Freewinds, and recovering from a cult experience.

The black and white anti Scientology thinking that currently dominates this board will stop people coming here. People like the Schicks and Karen no.1.

If ESMB was this anti when I got out I wouldn't have come here and I don't think Carmel or Panda would have either. I know Scooter would have given it the big miss.

The thing is people like the Schicks and Karen are the ones that will lead the way out of the CofS and we can't even let them come out at their own pace or keep that which they feel they need to.

Seriously, when did we become such arseholes?

Do we want all the newly outs to bypass us in favour of more pro tech boards?

This is what I noticed too. Any time I said something middle of the road or pro certain aspects of Scientology ,( because I don't think anything is black and white ) I got flamed. So lately I have been ending my posts with "up Yours" and "Let me have it you idiots"

At this point I feel that many people on this board are the type who join cults in the first place. These are people who mostly think they are always right.

When they were in Scientology they thought everyone should be in too. And now that they are out they think everyone should be out too. And not just be out but have the same "intensity" of being out as they have and the same opinions exactly.

I think they have a cult prone personality.

And I don't even get why ANONS are allowed here at all. I thought this was EXSCN.

The name should be changed to the "I hate Scientology Message board", then the behavior here would be correct.

Anyway...you can have at me you idiots. I stopped reading your comments to me a long time ago but I do read these posts once in a while becasue they can be interesting.

Not Reasonable anymore because that didn't seem to work

[FreeBeing]

I have noticed from Terril and Tory a comment they both shared. Some $cientologists leaving the church wanted auditing available and continue $cientology outside of the church. For those few it does appear to be a factor the $cientologist contemplating leaving the church.

I'm no tech cheerleader, I see no reason for the tech but if it helps get people out I'm not going to complain. I don't like the tech or Hubbard but that's only MY preference.

Frankly I don't care why a person leaves or the manner of it so long as the departure is a done deal. I have seen celebratory announcements of people leaving the church. We cheer and reply but I think to much is automatically expected of the newly freed. Cynicism or dissatisfaction regarding the $cientologists reasons for leaving are expressed. Or that the $cientologist will be looking for auditing is met with disapproval. When did leaving $cientology become an action of conditional approval here at ESMB? Isn't LEAVING enough? At least it is a beginning.

Peeling the onion layers takes time. Deciding to leave is a brave act. That onion doesn't peel itself the first night. Look at the good people here still trying to find themselves after years of being out.

I was out for years before I found ESMB. I STILL thought the tech was GREAT when I got here!!! I was welcomed here, warmly and graciously. I started reading...and reading....and reading. Now I know better and yes, I was horrified at the abuses and the con I bought into. Some how, it's expected that the same conclusions are are going to be concluded by a $cientologist leaving last night.

Would I prefer that a newly outed $cientologist threw away their books, e-meter and wrote an scathing denunciation published on the net? Ideally, yes. But isn't going to happen. Even with the time to heal and willingness to look at what info is on the web I can't control what a person will conclude about $cientology or what beliefs are acceptable. And I don't want to.

I even backed off the FZ people because I was violating a tenet of ESMB. Not respecting other peoples view or their right to say it. I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to be an ass about it either. Maybe I learned something from the people here that want nothing more to be themselves and ask questions...and sometimes come up with hilarious answers.

I agree with Feral. And I'll tell you why. Collectively the people of ESMB are the best people I have met with a sense of exploration, humor, caring and a willingness to learn and enjoy that graces the internet. I'm even buying books recommended that I have been suggested to me on threads. So if I can learn a greater appreciation of life, people and philosophy from the people here I bet those leaving the church can too...if they are given time to peel the onion.

Thanks

[Free to shine]

Though I'm only here as an outside observer who was never in Scientology, I've been in some other comparable communities to ESMB, and I think I recognize a sort of life cycle transition in what people have been describing.

ESMB may simply be a victim of its own success. It gave a lot of new ex-Scientologists a place to meet others like themselves, as well as longer term critics and outsiders. Everyone shared their stories, found they had a lot in common, and drew strength and courage from the community. They became more confident as a result.

That's all great, of course, and I believe it was what the board was founded to achieve. But I expect that a lot of the confidence that was being gained was confidence in having a negative view of Scientology. So the more ESMB succeeded, the more it was populated with assertive critics of Scientology. Gradually ESMB morphs from a tentative huddle of people stumbling out of Scientology together, into a crowd of opinionated critics.

It could be that this development is inevitable and irreversible, and that the only way to recreate the old ESMB is to start a new board. Or maybe there can be a further development, whereby people begin to consciously rein in their criticism here, for the sake of uncertain newbies, and save their real opinions for other places. Or even just restrict them to certain sub-forums here, to keep the intro threads more welcoming.

That's an idea I have put forward, though I don't know if it's workable in reality. A sub forum for newbies only and members who can keep the sarcasm in check.

ESMB ebbs and flows, different sets of posters tend to influence the 'climate' so to speak. That is the way of the internet and I think that reminders of good manners now and then doesn't go astray. The thing I hate is newbies being jumped on as possible OSA for no apparent reason, it often seems arbitrary.

Anyone who posts here at least has a foot out the door, it shouldn't be slammed on said foot.