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Thread: Claire's theory on where L Ron Hubbard truly went wrong

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gottabrain View Post
    Leon, I'd like to discuss what you said. Is that okay with you?

    1) You make a good point about a person needing to do self-improvement for himself.

    Most people do. Some drug addicts might be forced into self-improvement things, but most people seek self-improvement on their own and for their own sake. There's not much of a situation there in the general populace.

    There is a situation in the C of S where crush-regging, group force, etc. create an environment that is more destructive than constructive to a person. That is normally not true of self-improvement therapies, but it is true of cults.

    2) I bolded your words, "as far as he understands what he is dealing with."

    Leon, I fully understand the OT levels and everything on L Ron's Bridge he asserts. I spent 9 years in Scn and the SO - 8 years were prior to DM's reign. I worked at AOLA, trained highly, completed OT levels and observed a great deal in that time.

    I get it.

    It's a self-created maze of the mind, of the spirit, with no exit.

    There are brief rewards along the way - enough to keep one's interest, to keep one's hope up, to keep one working at it.

    And it all ends the same as Hubbard ended - screaming at BTs in one never-ending nightmare.

    Those rewards are all available outside the maze - and much, much more. And freedom. The freedom Scn promised but never delivered.

    So is true freedom. But it takes going back to the beginning to get completely out of the maze and taking a different path altogether. Your personal path, not the one that L Ron diverted you onto.

    Thanks for posting your views. I don't think there is much disagreement between us.

    First - the red highlighted portion. I know from what I've read and been told that this was done intensively to people. However where I lived and did my Scio there was none of this. Not on me by another, nor by me on others, nor every other flow.

    Second: "It's a self-created maze of the mind, of the spirit, with no exit." If you do it wrongly - other-determinedly - then this will become true for you.

    Third: "And it all ends the same as Hubbard ended - screaming at BTs in one never-ending nightmare.

    Those rewards are all available outside the maze - and much, much more. And freedom. "


    This I disagree with. I myself have never 'screamed at BTs'. To do so is VERY poor form for an auditor. I always audited them for their benefit and things went well for me. And them. The idea that one needs to "get rid" of Bs and Cs expresses an attitude towards them which (a) has no place in auditing, and (b) is not contained n the original OT-3 materials AFAIK.

    BTW, a friend sent me this little excerpt from a poem by Longfellow:

    I have read, in the marvellous heart of man,
    That strange and mystic scroll,
    That an army of phantoms vast and wan
    Beleaguer the human soul.


    Cute, isn't it?

    As far as the statement of "those rewards are available outside of the maze" is concerned - I have looked at many and never found one that is not itself a direct derivative of Scientology. And let me say too that there have been some excellent derivatives of Scientology.


    cheers.
    Standard tech is a subset of LRH tech. LRH tech is a subset of freezone tech. Freezone tech is a subset of all possible tech. - Pilot

    I think that the future lies in understanding and developing the capabilities of the mind and spirit. I might sometimes loosely call this Scientology, but I don't mean the CofS. I mean anything which works in this direction, which would even include you if you ever achieve real wisdom. - Pilot

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atalantan View Post
    For example, this recently from Steve Hall:
    http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/201...dent-movement/

    There are other posts on Marty's blog and other blogs, from people who have had similar positive experiences outside after having been stalled for many years in the Co$.
    Oh, right. Happy-clappy success stories written by people still coming round from hypnotic-like trance states - you call that "compelling evidence"?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite View Post
    Oh, right. Happy-clappy success stories written by people still coming round from hypnotic-like trance states - you call that "compelling evidence"?
    Now that he's an official OT he can do all kinds of cool OT stuff with Marty like get belligerently shitface drunk and end up in a New Orleans jail cell to dry out. Thanks Ron
    Yes lurkers you are not alone, everyone thinks Scientology is creepy, it's not just you

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    Thanks for posting your views. I don't think there is much disagreement between us.

    First - the red highlighted portion. I know from what I've read and been told that this was done intensively to people. However where I lived and did my Scio there was none of this. Not on me by another, nor by me on others, nor every other flow.
    I believe you. Yes, the crush regging and atmosphere would certainly be detrimental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    Second: "It's a self-created maze of the mind, of the spirit, with no exit." If you do it wrongly - other-determinedly - then this will become true for you.
    It's an interesting thought, Leon. Certainly anyone doing something because they are forced to do so will have difficulties. But most of those out experienced the endless maze long before any force. So this only applies to a small percent of those who have left.

    But there is still no exit. Universes within universes within universes, lives before lives before lives before lives. No full OTs ever made, no shred of evidence to support that it is even possible through Scn.

    My personal opinion, based on my own spiritual experiences is that Hubbard found a false exit and never got out of his mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    Third: "And it all ends the same as Hubbard ended - screaming at BTs in one never-ending nightmare.

    Those rewards are all available outside the maze - and much, much more. And freedom. "


    This I disagree with. I myself have never 'screamed at BTs'...
    BTW, a friend sent me this little excerpt from a poem by Longfellow:

    I have read, in the marvellous heart of man,
    That strange and mystic scroll,
    That an army of phantoms vast and wan
    Beleaguer the human soul.


    Cute, isn't it?
    Fair enough. It's more than possible that Bs & Cs exist. But I wouldn't call them that, think of them that way, nor do I think of them as the after-effect of a SciFi incident. Hubbard's concept and mine just don't mesh here at all. I don't even see a need to address them.

    To do so does not answer questions. It just leads into the endless maze (sci fi incident before scifi incident before incident before??).

    I think addressing Bs and Cs is a silly, unnecessary distraction. If you really understand how powerful your mind is, then you understand as well that the more you consider such things real, the more they become so. If you believe Bs & Cs exist and interfere with your life and thinking, then they will. If you believe they are trapping you, they will.

    You could also view the entire universe as life connected to life. Without these connections, there is truly nothing at all. Not what you create, but simply - nothing, nobody. Zero time, zero awareness, zero perception (nothing to perceive) zero space. Nothing. Not even you.

    If you were to view all of life as connected, you might consider that to live as a life form we must live it as composite living things - cells, grouped cells, friendships through love, animals, etc. Kindred spirits, the lot.

    There is no trap when life cooperates together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    As far as the statement of "those rewards are available outside of the maze" is concerned - I have looked at many and never found one that is not itself a direct derivative of Scientology. And let me say too that there have been some excellent derivatives of Scientology.

    cheers.
    That doesn't make any sense, Leon. L Ron didn't even publish Dn until 1950. Many studies and sciences are far older than that, and others have studied in entirely different directions.

    Looking at different studies is one thing. Immersing yourself in them for full comprehensive understanding is another. Even better (in my view) is learning as you go, as you live your own life, by applying different things from different studies to these situations.

    I doubt you have ever given any other study the complete time, attention and trust you have given Scn.

    Personally, I've found both Christian and Hindu tenets were far more comprehensive and spiritually enlightening than Scn. Some philosophers, like Kant, just knock me out. Plato changed my life.

    But each has to be understand as itself, by itself, not as something compared to Scn. Prior to Scn, I am sure you were able to do this. I wonder if you can still do so now.

    Nice chatting with you.

    L,
    Sheila

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    Default That might be a winning idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn View Post
    I'd like to know what "making progress up the bridge" actually means, since Scientology was never intended to be anything more that a fantasy role playing game.

    Does "making progress up the bridge" mean they are that much closer to full blown insanity?
    That might just be a winning idea ... a Cof$ online fantasy roll playing game! There have been some satirical Scn board games that have been done, parodies of Monopoly, but a real ongoing roll playing game might just be a winner!

    As far as the larger topic here ... because LRH had to be "Source" and because it was, by doctrine, always 100% workable, meaning that it was always somebody elses fault if things didn't work as advertised ... there could never be any such thing as real research nor could there be any such thing as any evolution of the "tech". For example ... the e meter. The Cof$ is stuck with tech that is perhaps 20 years old while the independent/Freezone field has moved on to the C meter. It is possible these days to audit over the web via webcam with the auditor viewing his client in real time and getting meter reads over his computer, with the client viewing the auditor. Another aspect of tech that is way behind ... Cof$ is still using CD's ... whereas all that LRH wrote could easily be squeezed into a few downloads, same with all the lectures, etc.

    Somewhere along the line, LRH/Cof$ became addicted to the money. The money, instead of being used as a tool for expansion of the subject, became an end in and of itself. Meanwhile, there has been an ongoing devolution of the organization which has become more and more totalitarian, increasingly interested only in the money, and less and less intersted in delivering service or training. Why bother with that when it is possible to simply pitch an urgency and get people to donate to the IAS for status?

    If the entire show doesn't fold up first ... the next step will be special fund raising activity rooms in the idle orgs. Instead of just "Bingo!" like the Catholic church, there will be roulette wheels, craps tables, and slot machines. The watered down drinks and chips will be the sacraments. Eventually, there might even be water bed "confessional" rooms upstairs, where you might spend time with one of the "temple virgins" for a fixed donation, of course. Maybe that way the idle orgs won't be so idle.

    Pete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite View Post
    Oh, right. Happy-clappy success stories written by people still coming round from hypnotic-like trance states - you call that "compelling evidence"?
    Whatever rolls you over, dude, I guess that would be "compelling evidence".

    I did notice you didn't "DOX PLOX" for Synthia's "compelling evidence" that scientology is booby-trapped in some way.

    Would you care to do that for me - produce the DOX, PLOX, for that "compelling evidence?"

    Or would you rather sit back, sneer and snide about my posts? Good luck with that. But it would be OK with me too. I don't want to make you work or have to step out of your mental box.

  7. #57
    Silver Meritorious Patron Helena Handbasket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atalantan View Post
    I think there are few who would argue that ARC Straighwire, the Grades 0-IV, Dianetics, Power and Power-plus, Clear, and OT1 and OTII are boob-trapped and misleading. There are too many who have done them and gone just where they were led to believe they would go, at least back in the 1960s and 1970s. Beyond those the picture seems to be more murky.
    IMHO the church bridge is useless after OT III.

    I myself am on "another bridge" right now---and where I am now is much weirder than OT III. I am looking forward to the auditing, however.

    Helena

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire's Child View Post
    I'm sure there are a lot of ways in which Hubbard went wrong. But since I'm one of those who think that sometimes he really did give a shit about people and his developing ...ology (I know this opinion isn't shared by everyone), I was having fun speculating on what really went wrong with him vis a vis Scn as well as CofS.

    A lot of abuses took place before DM took over. A lot of abusive screwed up policies were written before then, too. Plus, if you read Dianetics in Limbo, written by an ex who actually liked Dianetics, you can see that he was venal quite early on. Very interesting.

    I've said before that a major problem is that it became all about the group than about the individuals. That's why everyone gets hosed in CofS. But I think I could take it farther back than that, to Hubbard.

    Well, I already knew that it started with him. But I wanted to maybe nutshell it a bit. I think that a major problem, maybe the biggest one, was that he didn't concentrate on or have the purpose of altruism. He always wanted to make money. He did care about people at times, he sometimes did "key out" and do some decent things, but it always came back to him, his power and also not being questioned, and his position and his this that and the other thing.

    This is where a lot of pundits, religious leaders, cult leaders and others go wrong. The altruism isn't there. With some of these guys, there was some altruism but they lost it. With some, there was none. With most (IMO) there was altruism mixed with conceit, greed and self interest. Which creates a hideous dichotomy and undoes them and their work every time.

    I tend to think Hubbard fell under the last category though not everyone will agree with me.

    I think that if you're going to humbly tender a gift to mankind of an ideological or philosophical nature, that you need to make it completely altruistic, no strings attached. I don't think that Hubbard ever understood that. I think he thought he could care about it and others but could still have power base, lots of money, and the ego attached to being the founder. I think that this cannot ever ever work.

    So in my opinion and that's ALL this is- that's the problem with the founder of Scientology and creator of Dianetics.
    The problem with your theory, Claire, is L Ron didn't ever live an extravagant life, financially, despite the money.

    He wanted to be better than Buddha, he wanted to be the one who discovered the deepest secrets of mankind. He wanted it so badly, he re-wrote his own personal history and tried to re-make his own personality.

    Unfortunately, wanting something to be true doesn't make it true, no matter how many people are coerced or brainwashed into believing it is.

  9. #59
    Silver Meritorious Patron Helena Handbasket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by This is NOT OK !!!! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Helena Handbasket
    He let the church be taken over. He had technology for detecting "plants", but it failed because the people who were supposed to be administering the checks were themselves plants.
    Huh?
    I don't understand your confusion.

    Sec Checking was originally developed to detect "SP's" who were sent to join staff by anti-scn groups (government agencies, etc) and wreck scn. But some of these got themselves promoted to executive positions, and then they were able to make sure that other infiltrators were NOT effective checked. As these SP's got into higher and higher positions, they were able to promote their own kind into key positions (not that that doesn't happen in the non-scn world all the time). LRH's own Special Zone Plan used against him!

    Originally, it was firm policy only to let trained, proven auditors take higher management positions. Later, this was changed as new recruits were divided into "tech" and "admin" and only the latter made it into senior management. IMHO if this change had not been made the church would not have been taken over.

    Helena

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite View Post
    Oh, right. Happy-clappy success stories written by people still coming round from hypnotic-like trance states - you call that "compelling evidence"?
    "Wow!, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow x 10." Steve Hall. Upon completing NOTs, 2011 (Now he's ready for OT 8.)

    Reading Steve Hall's account of 1979 in Scientology - before David Miscavige took over and "altered the tech" - and how excited Steve Hall was about the "tech breakthroughs" made by Hubbard in '79, reminded me of why I - around the same time - ceased taking Scientologists seriously.

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